Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Matt Liotta]

On Dec 8, 2009, at 10:22 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:

> What's great about the commercial insurers, is that if you're not  
> happy with
> how one company is ran, you can move to another.  Just like if someone
> doesn't like Comcast's customer service or Verizon's service  
> options, they
> can choose me for service.  Just think if Qwest was everyone's sole  
> Internet
> provider.  There are no other commercial based first world countries  
> I can
> move to (rescinding my US citizenship) to free myself of the burden of
> socialist healthcare.
>
Actually, that is not true. In many markets there is no choice.  
Further, since most people depend on their employer for insurance they  
can't change healthcare providers without changing jobs. And, even if  
they wanted to change healthcare providers they may not be able to  
because of a preexisting condition e.g. pregnancy.

You are what is wrong with the healthcare debate. Get informed or get  
out.

-Matt




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Matt Liotta]

On Dec 8, 2009, at 10:21 AM, Mike wrote:

> The first is to allow people to die with dignity.  I saw something on
> 60 minutes recently where a trauma doctor was talking about how 60%
> of people spend the last few days of their lives in intensive care at
> great expense while compassionate medical personnel pull out all
> stops to prolong their lives.  When is enough, enough?  I have a
> living will and will come back to haunt anyone not respecting my  
> wishes.
>
Having watched two relatives die over the course of days being starved  
to death as part of a "humane" end of life treatment I understand very  
well that our current system needs euthanasia reform. The fact that it  
would save money is even better, but it is not about the money.

> The second is a big one, tort reform.  I don't know exactly how we
> can get a handle on that one, but the frivolous lawsuits are adding
> an immense burden to health care costs.  OBGYN doctors are leaving
> the field because they can't afford malpractice insurance.  Those who
> stay are charging ever greater fees in order to cover their
> premiums.  And that is only one branch of medicine.  Many others
> suffer from the same dynamics.
>
You've got that one wrong. Studies have shown that in states where  
tort reform was enacted there was no effect on the number of doctors  
or the cost of healthcare. Specifically to your point, those states  
with tort reform did NOT see a reduction in malpractice insurance  
premiums.

-Matt




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Jeff Broadwick]

Not in some states Mike.  I think California only has 4-6 insurance
companies that are allowed to sell policies in the state.  That's one of the
big problems, along with individual state mandates about what MUST be in
those polices. 


Regards,

Jeff


Jeff Broadwick
ImageStream
800-813-5123 x106 (US/Can)
+1 574-935-8484 x106  (Int'l)

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 10:23 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

What's great about the commercial insurers, is that if you're not happy with
how one company is ran, you can move to another.  Just like if someone
doesn't like Comcast's customer service or Verizon's service options, they
can choose me for service.  Just think if Qwest was everyone's sole Internet
provider.  There are no other commercial based first world countries I can
move to (rescinding my US citizenship) to free myself of the burden of
socialist healthcare.

Having private options in a public world means you're paying for your
healthcare twice.  It's like being forced to have Qwest DSL, but electing to
have FiOS instead.  You're paying for 2 Internet services, one great and the
other not.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "George Morris" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:57 PM
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

> I'd like to make a quick comment about single payer.
>
> Its generally painted as being a great socialist evil in the US.
>
> That's not quite true, although there are bound to be instances where 
> its abused, just like there are lots of instances where commercial 
> insurers deny coverage or limit treatment options. It is often said 
> that single payer means you have no treatment options and your choice 
> of providers is limited.
>
> Not true here. In fact, no even close. I had a brush with prostate 
> cancer three years ago. I did the normal research we all would, picked 
> out the treatment I thought I wanted, and picked out the surgeon I 
> wanted just like you hopefully could. Went to Toronto for a consult 
> with the Head of Urology at Toronto General who has one of the best 
> reps in the Province, we worked out a treatment plan, I went to 
> Toronto for surgery performed by him and I've had a clean bill of 
> health for the last couple of years. I had my choice of practitioners, 
> although some would require longer waits than others, had my choice of 
> hospitals, and had my choice of treatments. Hard to ask for much more 
> really.
>
> The other reality is that single payer takes some pressure off 
> "treatment by next-quarter profit numbers", where the insurers have to 
> answer to their shareholders on a very short-term basis. Insurance 
> companies are after all in business to make money, and western 
> business culture demands great numbers month after month, quarter 
> after quarter and year after year.
>
> As a result, no private insurance company is in a position to take the 
> long view about anything. If they did their CEO would get lynched.
>
> One of the huge benefits of single payer that often gets lost in the 
> rhetoric is the ability for the payer (the government) to take a much 
> longer view of benefits to public health.
>
> Let me give you another personal example. I've had a serious weight 
> problem since I was a kid. Got to the point five years ago that I 
> weighed 300 lbs, and I'm only 5' 8". Tried all the diets etc, but got 
> heavier every year.
>
> I went looking for alternatives, and found a pretty good one with a 
> bariatric surgery program with the Centres for Laparoscopic Obesity 
> Surgery run by Dr. Rutledge and available in a number of centres in 
> the US. Very good reputation, lower risks than normal and terrific 
> five year results for taking weight off and keeping it off.
>
> There was no equivalent program available at the time in Ontario. They 
> are working hard to create one now, but it takes time.
>
> So I worked with my GP, and we submitted an application to OHIP 
> (Ontario Hospital Insurance Plan), the single payer for the province. 
> Detailed what the problem was, what the future health risks were, what 
> the surgery was going to cost and what we expected to gain from it.
>
> Took a bit to get it approved, but approve it they did because of the 
> typical $2M plus lifetime cost of a patient with morbid obesity. 
> Diabetes, cardiac issues etc.
>
> Had the surgery, lost nearly 150 lbs and I've now been stable at 155 
> for coming u

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[os10rules]

But look at their healthcare at #144

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html


On Dec 8, 2009, at 10:58 AM, Matt Liotta wrote:

> 
> On Dec 8, 2009, at 10:11 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
> 
>> Our profit is what drives the medical research and inspiration to make
>> something better.
>> 
> Actually, most medical R&D is funded by the government. Further, even  
> many of the corporate R&D programs depend on government funding.
> 
>> The greatest profit based economy?  The USA, and we're doing quite  
>> well.
>> The greatest government based economy?  We haven't seen them in 18  
>> years.
>> 
> You may want to check your facts. Unfortunately, China is looking much  
> better financially than we are.
> 
> -Matt
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Matt Liotta]

On Dec 8, 2009, at 10:11 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:

> Our profit is what drives the medical research and inspiration to make
> something better.
>
Actually, most medical R&D is funded by the government. Further, even  
many of the corporate R&D programs depend on government funding.

> The greatest profit based economy?  The USA, and we're doing quite  
> well.
> The greatest government based economy?  We haven't seen them in 18  
> years.
>
You may want to check your facts. Unfortunately, China is looking much  
better financially than we are.

-Matt




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[David E. Smith]

On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 09:49, Mike Hammett  wrote:

> In going a little bit off topic (Hey, this conversation is relevant to any
> business, regardless of it going anywhere or not.) Why can't this and most
> federal programs be done on a state level?


It can be, but it shouldn't in this case. A larger risk pool, especially one
chock full of relatively healthy twenty-somethings and thirty-somethings, is
exactly the thing that drives costs down. Separating that into fifty smaller
risk pools defeats the purpose.

David Smith
MVN.net



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Mike Hammett]

Everyone (including illegals) currently can obtain life threatening 
healthcare in the US.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "RickG" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 10:48 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

> "Those that cant" are already covered by the generosity of the US 
> taxpayer.
> That goes back to my original question: Who does not have access?
>
> As far as compassion, I appreciate yours. I've had some very rough times
> myself over the years. If/when I get into another rough time, I need to
> count on you to pay for my health care. Can I give you call?
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 11:30 PM, David E. Smith  wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 22:06, RickG  wrote:
>>
>> > Um, thats what happens now. I pay mine and you pay yours. So, wheres 
>> > the
>> > problem? Oh ya, there are those that cant or choose not to. So now we
>> want
>> > to force them to? And I thought this country was founded on freedom?
>> >
>>
>> The key is "those that can't." I see it as a humanitarian cause to 
>> provide
>> essential human-welfare services for those who are, through no fault of
>> their own, unable to attain them otherwise. You're welcome to disagree; I
>> genuinely don't understand the logic there, but to each his own.
>>
>> David Smith
>> MVN.net
>>
>>
>>
>> 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Mike Hammett]

I support a system for people that truly cannot afford it themselves.  Just 
pulling a number out of thin air, but I'd imagine that's only 5% of the 
population.  My parents crested $40k in annual income not long ago, yet we 
(family of 5) always had everything we needed to live and grow, including 
healthcare.  I believe Illinois recently expanded their income requirements 
for the low income government health program to $75k for a family of 4. 
Excuse me?

In going a little bit off topic (Hey, this conversation is relevant to any 
business, regardless of it going anywhere or not.) Why can't this and most 
federal programs be done on a state level?  I believe Massachusetts has had 
government healthcare for a couple years.  Let them have it and let Texas 
not!  Let Massachusetts have government social security, welfare, etc. and 
Texas not!  (No, I don't live in Texas, but it's a largely populated 
conservative state.)


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "David E. Smith" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 10:30 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 22:06, RickG  wrote:
>
>> Um, thats what happens now. I pay mine and you pay yours. So, wheres the
>> problem? Oh ya, there are those that cant or choose not to. So now we 
>> want
>> to force them to? And I thought this country was founded on freedom?
>>
>
> The key is "those that can't." I see it as a humanitarian cause to provide
> essential human-welfare services for those who are, through no fault of
> their own, unable to attain them otherwise. You're welcome to disagree; I
> genuinely don't understand the logic there, but to each his own.
>
> David Smith
> MVN.net
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[David E. Smith]

On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 09:22, Mike Hammett  wrote:

> What's great about the commercial insurers, is that if you're not happy
> with
> how one company is ran, you can move to another.


Except that you often can't, thanks to the weasel words "pre-existing
conditions." And even if you do, insurance companies love rescission. Yeah,
you can definitely sign up and they'll take your money, but whether they'll
actually pay for your much-needed health care is pretty much a crapshoot.

Health insurance is fundamentally broken. At this point it exists solely to
drain money and resources from patients and doctors alike. Patients pay more
than they can afford for insurance that may or may not actually be there
when they need it; doctors are forced to hire large billing staffs to chase
after the insurance companies, who will take basically any excuse not to pay
claims. It raises everyone's costs and provides little or no real value to
anyone involved (except the insurance companies themselves).

I'm sure most of us have built a network on some unproven technology that
looked good on the surface, but when it was deployed, it turned out to be a
horrible failure, and we had to spend time and effort to replace and
rebuild. (I won't name vendors but I know I've done this at least once.)
Health insurance is just like this - it sounds good, but this specific
implementation has failed completely; it's time to pull it out and start
over.

David Smith
MVN.net



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Mike Hammett]

I find it astonishing that anyone on this list is for public healthcare, 
regardless of whatever potential benefit there may be.  We're all business 
owners or upper management, yet some of us support the government taking 
over an entire industry.  It's okay for some other business to be eliminated 
or rendered irrelevant, but God forbid they try to take over the Internet 
industry and regulate us to death or just outright do it themselves.  Oh, 
wait...


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Blake Bowers" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 10:11 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

>
> Don't take your organs to heaven,
> heaven knows we need them down here!
> Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today.
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "David E. Smith" 
>>
>>
>> Yup. Medicare. Very simple program, very low overhead (on the order of 
>> 3%,
>> as compared to about 20% for the typical insurance company). Proven to
>> improve health care outcomes for those covered by it.
>>
>
>
> Source please?
>
>
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[os10rules]

On Dec 8, 2009, at 10:17 AM, David E. Smith wrote:


>  a proper
> single-payer plan would save me a few dollars.


Is this a fact? We're going to have something bigger and better for 
more people and it's going to cost less? When I was in the merchant marine we 
went to the container port of Rotterdam when they converted to an automated 
system. The trucks and cranes had no people in them. The trucks had sensors and 
followed something buried in the ground and the cranes had a variety of 
sensors. The ships and containers had to have special markings for the crane to 
sense. It was hugely expensive and in all the places I went in Europe and Asia 
it was the only place where they did that. You know why they did it in 
Rotterdam? Because it made financial sense. It's so expensive for a company to 
have employees because of all the taxes. But they have great  healthcare.


>  It hasn't been
> nearly as good to the thousands of people who die every year because they
> can't afford basic health care,

And this is a fact too? Thousands are dying? They can't afford 
healthcare or don't. There's a difference. Are these the thousands who die each 
year because they don't have access to preventative health care - i.e. a doctor 
to hold their hand and tell them they need to lose weight and eat better to 
control their diabetes. I don't need a doctor to tell me I'm overweight (but 
still cute) and should exercise more.

Greg



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Mike Hammett]

I wonder if the people that did that report are from the University of East 
Anglia.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Blake Bowers" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 9:49 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

> Lets get our fact straight.
>
> The WHO report that you are referencing that puts us
> at 37 is also reported to have a number of flaws.
>
> And Cuba on that report is actually lower than the US, at #39.
>
> http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
>
> Canada at 30 is laughable - as evidenced by the daily
> bus trips made in to the US for people to pay to see
> a doctor, versus waiting on the Canadian health care
> system.
>
> http://www.healthandsharing.com/21/articledetail
>
> has some interesting facts, I really like the one about the
> the member of the Canadian Parliment, who when faced with
> cancer jumped ship on the Canadian health care system, to seek
> care in the US.
>
> And what country is the leader in medical research and innovation
> other (moreso) than the US?  Cite, please.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Don't take your organs to heaven,
> heaven knows we need them down here!
> Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today.
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Robert West" 
> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 9:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>
>
>> Actually, most of the advancement now is coming from other countries.
>> We're
>> behind but since we live in it, we can't smell it.  We rank near number 
>> 37
>> in health care, that certainly is not being a leader.  Even our friend,
>> Cuba
>> ranks higher than we do.  Shameful for a country as well off as we are.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>> Behalf Of Blake Bowers
>> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 9:34 PM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>>
>> With no profit we would have no advancement.
>>
>>
>> Don't take your organs to heaven,
>> heaven knows we need them down here!
>> Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today.
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Robert West" 
>> To: "'Tom Sharples'" ; "'WISPA General List'"
>> 
>> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:13 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>>
>>
>>> Exactly.  We are the one and only industrialized country (with whatever
>>> industry we might have left) who puts "profit" in healthcare.  As you
>>> stated, their goal is to NOT pay and they can and do come up with
>>> anything
>>> they can find to do that.
>>>
>>> Profit has no place in healthcare.  Single payer is the only thing I see
>>> working.  As far as increased taxes to pay for it, we already are paying
>>> for
>>> it and getting zero bang for our buck.  As George from the great white
>>> north
>>> said, healthcare shows up nowhere in his budget.  They just pay extra in
>>> taxes.
>>>
>>> Medicare for all.  End of the controversy.  Simple.
>>>
>
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Mike Hammett]

Well haven't the NTIA and RUS been excellent examples of how quickly 
government can take a program that already exists and expand it to more 
people?  It'll take them 1 year from the President's pen to spending the 
money on a program they already had.

I can't wait until they do that with healthcare!


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "MDK" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 9:37 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

> So is food an absolute necessity.
>
> Does this mean we should have a single farmer system run by the 
> government?
>
> Maybe we should have a single ISP system, run by the government?   Single
> car maker, run by the government?Single housing contractor, run by
> Congress?Single clothing maker, the federal clothing agency?
>
> Come on.   You just can't go there, can you?Well, some people would.
> They view government as holy and perfect, and just have a religious faith 
> in
> it.The rest of us live in the real world and it would seem that given 
> a
> few minutes of thought,  it makes less than no sense to have the 
> government
> run health care.
>
> Medicare?Please.Don't even dream of such nonsense.
>
> Medicare reimburses doctors, hospitals, etc, somewhere between 10 and 60% 
> of
> the COST of what people who are on medicare actually get.The rest of 
> us
> who actually PAY are paying to subsidize them.
>
> If everyone were transferred to Medicare, it would take somewhere between 
> 90
> and 270 days for almost every hospital, doctor's office, etc, to either go
> bankrupt or close voluntarily. At the rates at which Mecicare pays, 
> the
> best doctor you could get would be an email conference with some guy in
> India who collects $3 per consult.
>
> It is NOT an option.
>
> Frankly, for those of you want a single payer system...   Could you tell 
> the
> rest of us what experience you have with a federal agency that has so
> inspired you with confidence over their efficiency, responsiveness, 
> wisdom,
> and fantastic ability, that you stood in awe and said "I want them in 
> charge
> of my life!" And, not only did that, but in your mind, completely made
> up for the Postal service, the IRS, EPA, and all the other alphabet soup
> which are stunning examples of "how to be wrong, wasteful, stupid and
> irresponsible, overbearing, abusive, rude, power-trip seekers, and yet 
> never
> get fired"?
>
> If that hasn't happened to you, then what sort of fantasy do you indulge 
> in,
> that makes you think the government is just so darn good at running stuff?
> Please provide an example of how the federal government is such a 
> fantastic
> administrator of our money, while you're at it...
>
> I have just GOT to know where these fantasies... Or, maybe they are real
> life experiences - the likes of which I have never witnessed, read about,
> heard about, seen, or experienced personally...   Come from, that so 
> inspire
> people to put their life in the hands of Congress.
>
> My experience says I'd rather do surgery on myself.
>
>
>
> --
> From: "David E. Smith" 
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:50 PM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 18:06, RickG  wrote:
>>
>>> Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not truly
>>> run
>>> in a "free market". It's "failure" is exactly due to this. Even after 
>>> all
>>> the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have
>>> "access"
>>> to health care?
>>>
>>
>> I suppose we're taking fundamentally different approaches to the issue of
>> health care. I don't see it as one that can (or should) be solved by the
>> free market - as far as I'm concerned, it's a fundamental human right. No
>> person, anywhere on this planet, should have to worry about things like
>> "money" when it comes to basic health and wellness. The fact that even 
>> one
>> American (or anyone else really, but this is a US-centric list) doesn't,
>> in
>> my mind represents a deep-rooted failure of the free market, and of basic
>> human kindness and compassion.
>>
>> David Smith
>> MVN.net
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join to

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Mike Hammett]

What's great about the commercial insurers, is that if you're not happy with 
how one company is ran, you can move to another.  Just like if someone 
doesn't like Comcast's customer service or Verizon's service options, they 
can choose me for service.  Just think if Qwest was everyone's sole Internet 
provider.  There are no other commercial based first world countries I can 
move to (rescinding my US citizenship) to free myself of the burden of 
socialist healthcare.

Having private options in a public world means you're paying for your 
healthcare twice.  It's like being forced to have Qwest DSL, but electing to 
have FiOS instead.  You're paying for 2 Internet services, one great and the 
other not.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "George Morris" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:57 PM
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

> I'd like to make a quick comment about single payer.
>
> Its generally painted as being a great socialist evil in the US.
>
> That's not quite true, although there are bound to be instances where its
> abused, just like there are lots of instances where commercial insurers 
> deny
> coverage or limit treatment options. It is often said that single payer
> means you have no treatment options and your choice of providers is 
> limited.
>
> Not true here. In fact, no even close. I had a brush with prostate cancer
> three years ago. I did the normal research we all would, picked out the
> treatment I thought I wanted, and picked out the surgeon I wanted just 
> like
> you hopefully could. Went to Toronto for a consult with the Head of 
> Urology
> at Toronto General who has one of the best reps in the Province, we worked
> out a treatment plan, I went to Toronto for surgery performed by him and
> I've had a clean bill of health for the last couple of years. I had my
> choice of practitioners, although some would require longer waits than
> others, had my choice of hospitals, and had my choice of treatments. Hard 
> to
> ask for much more really.
>
> The other reality is that single payer takes some pressure off "treatment 
> by
> next-quarter profit numbers", where the insurers have to answer to their
> shareholders on a very short-term basis. Insurance companies are after all
> in business to make money, and western business culture demands great
> numbers month after month, quarter after quarter and year after year.
>
> As a result, no private insurance company is in a position to take the 
> long
> view about anything. If they did their CEO would get lynched.
>
> One of the huge benefits of single payer that often gets lost in the
> rhetoric is the ability for the payer (the government) to take a much 
> longer
> view of benefits to public health.
>
> Let me give you another personal example. I've had a serious weight 
> problem
> since I was a kid. Got to the point five years ago that I weighed 300 lbs,
> and I'm only 5' 8". Tried all the diets etc, but got heavier every year.
>
> I went looking for alternatives, and found a pretty good one with a
> bariatric surgery program with the Centres for Laparoscopic Obesity 
> Surgery
> run by Dr. Rutledge and available in a number of centres in the US. Very
> good reputation, lower risks than normal and terrific five year results 
> for
> taking weight off and keeping it off.
>
> There was no equivalent program available at the time in Ontario. They are
> working hard to create one now, but it takes time.
>
> So I worked with my GP, and we submitted an application to OHIP (Ontario
> Hospital Insurance Plan), the single payer for the province. Detailed what
> the problem was, what the future health risks were, what the surgery was
> going to cost and what we expected to gain from it.
>
> Took a bit to get it approved, but approve it they did because of the
> typical $2M plus lifetime cost of a patient with morbid obesity. Diabetes,
> cardiac issues etc.
>
> Had the surgery, lost nearly 150 lbs and I've now been stable at 155 for
> coming up on four years. Pretty damn cool.
>
> Went for the surgery in Michigan at Bay City. Caught a fairly unpleasant
> case of pneumonia in the hospital, so ended up with a ten days longer than
> planned stay. OHIP covered everything. No deductable at all. Came to
> $42,000US which isn't chump change, but my quality of life is immeasurably
> higher now.
>
> The point is, about 70% of US patients are denied coverage from their
> insurers for this procedure. Most have to dig up the $17,000 base cost out
> of their hip po

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Mike]

 > say you can only keep your current private insurance if you don't
> > make any changes or else you default to the government system. What
> > the majority of Americans want is freedom even if it's dangerous
> > (think 2nd amendment).
> >
> > Greg
> >
> > On Dec 8, 2009, at 7:32 AM, Owen Harrell wrote:
> >
> >>  I keep reading what everyone is saying about government and
> >> insurance, but I don't really believe you. Most of you say that you
> >> are
> >> against the government getting involved in health care, that it is a
> >> Socialist idea. What I haven't heard is any of you saying you
> >> wanted to stop
> >> Medicare or Social Security or shut down the VA hospitals. Why not?
> >> These
> >> are Socialist programs. These are Government run programs with no
> >> choice to
> >> purchase it from the private market. Why haven't you said to stop
> >> those
> >> programs? You say you believe in the Free Market, but I do not see
> >> you
> >> asking to stop regulating electricity, or natural gas. Only if we
> >> let these
> >> companies truly charge whatever they wanted to would it be a free
> >> market.
> >> Most of you claim to be Christians, but you do not really believe
> >> what you
> >> preach. A true Christian always wants to help those that are less
> >> fortunate
> >> than yourself. Well I believe that includes health care. Or does it
> >> mean you
> >> can pick and choose who should be helped and who shouldn't. Yes, I
> >> have had
> >> insurance almost my whole life. Some was paid for by my employer,
> >> some has
> >> been paid for by myself. What I have seen is premiums go up every
> >> year.
> >> However, the health of this nation ranks in the 30's among other
> >> nations. We
> >> live 3-7 years less than countries with health care. Does that mean
> >> National
> >> Health Care will be perfect? I do not think so. That would be like
> >> me asking
> >> you if your Wireless was up 100% of the time. You would have to
> >> either say
> >> no, or lie to me. I do not believe there is such a thing as
> >> perfect, but if
> >> you never try to achieve perfection, you sure as hell will never
> >> come close
> >> to reaching it. I also notice how everyone seems to know how the
> >> government
> >> will run Health Care and what is being done wrong. How do you know
> >> these
> >> things when there is not even a completed bill in the Senate yet?
> >> Last I
> >> knew, they were still debating what should and what shouldn't be a
> >> part of
> >> it. Some say we should throw the bill in the Senate away, and start
> >> over.
> >> Maybe they should have been there when it started. These are the
> >> congressmen
> >> you should be pissed at. They elected not to participate in the
> >> beginning,
> >> and now want to cry foul and ask to start over. These are just my
> >> two cents
> >> on the subject, and because you are still in America, you have the
> >> right to
> >> disagree, not read this at all and delete it, or respond. Well, I
> >> guess if
> >> you have read the last line, you now only have two choices left,
> >> hurry and
> >> decide before there is only one left.
> >>
> >> Owen Harrell
> >>
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
> >> boun...@wispa.org] On
> >> Behalf Of Paul C Diem
> >> Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 1:26 AM
> >> To: 'WISPA General List'
> >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
> >>
> >> Yup, in the past century, America stopped being the land of
> >> opportunity and
> >> became the land of guarantees.
> >>
> >> Paul C Diem
> >> pcd...@foxvalley.net
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
> >> boun...@wispa.org] On
> >> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
> >> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:39 PM
> >> To: WISPA General List
> >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
> >>
> >>
> >> Oh boy, here we go.
> >>
> >> Even more important is water and food.  How about electricity,
> >> transportation, entertainment etc. etc. etc.

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[David E. Smith]

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 23:51, RickG  wrote:

> You and I are paying way more
> than a couple of bucks.


Exactly. I'll freely admit to a bit of a selfish motive here - a proper
single-payer plan would save me a few dollars. It also would cost less for
most people than what they're paying for junk insurance with high premiums
and high deductibles, deductibles so high that nearly 2/3 of people who file
bankruptcy because of medical bills actually had insurance.

Yes, it benefits me. It coincidentally benefits many others too. I don't
think that a self-serving motive automatically invalidates every other
argument in my favor.


> I dont know if you have dreams
> of becoming financially secure one day but if so, I'd be more concerned. I
> dont know how old you are but I'd guess around 30 or less.


Mid-thirties, and I'm already working towards long-term financial stability.
I'm doing reasonably well. America has been good to me. It hasn't been
nearly as good to the thousands of people who die every year because they
can't afford basic health care, and by myself there's no way I can
single-handedly counterbalance that. I do what I can, but it simply isn't
enough; that's why, in addition to donating to humanitarian and charitable
causes when I can, I also am advocating for a better system of health care
that won't leave people out in the metaphorical (and sometimes literal)
cold.

David Smith
MVN.net



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Mike Hammett]

Our profit is what drives the medical research and inspiration to make 
something better.

The greatest profit based economy?  The USA, and we're doing quite well. 
The greatest government based economy?  We haven't seen them in 18 years.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Robert West" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:13 PM
To: "'Tom Sharples'" ; "'WISPA General List'" 

Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

> Exactly.  We are the one and only industrialized country (with whatever
> industry we might have left) who puts "profit" in healthcare.  As you
> stated, their goal is to NOT pay and they can and do come up with anything
> they can find to do that.
>
> Profit has no place in healthcare.  Single payer is the only thing I see
> working.  As far as increased taxes to pay for it, we already are paying 
> for
> it and getting zero bang for our buck.  As George from the great white 
> north
> said, healthcare shows up nowhere in his budget.  They just pay extra in
> taxes.
>
> Medicare for all.  End of the controversy.  Simple.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Tom Sharples
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:24 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>
> One of the basic probems IMO is that the whole idea of medical insurance, 
> as
>
> currentlky implemented, is fundamentally flawed. Consider selling ISP
> services under the model of "broadband insurance." Under that model, your
> customer would pay you a certain amount per month in case he needs
> broadband, and you would do your best to find reasons to deny him access. 
> Or
>
> how about "housing insurance" instead of monthly rent. You pay the 
> landlord
> a certain amount every month in case you need shelter and he 
> oversubscribes
> a number of his units and hires guards to keep people out on various
> pretexts. Sound completely ridiculous, yet unless you're in an HMO like
> Kaiser that's the system we have now.
>
> What we need is universal (private or public) access to medical care,
> healthy lifestyle incentives, and the elimination of stupid laws that only
> serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription drugs to US
> consumers, restrict free-market access across state and international
> lines,create incentives toward excess consumption and CYA medical 
> pratices,
> and only serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription 
> drugs
> to US consumers.
>
> Tom S.
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "RickG" 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>
>
>> Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not truly 
>> run
>> in a "free market". It's "failure" is exactly due to this. Even after all
>> the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have
>> "access"
>> to health care?
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 5:58 PM, David E. Smith  wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 16:42, MDK  wrote:
>>>
>>> > The free market really does work.   We use it daily in our business...
>>> > Now
>>>
>>> imagine if we used it for health care, too.We know how to do that,
>>> don't
>>> > we?
>>>
>>>
>>> There is a fundamental difference between broadband Internet and basic
>>> medical care, and the fact that tens of millions of Americans have 
>>> better
>>> access to the former than the latter shows that in this instance the 
>>> free
>>> market has failed miserably.
>>>
>>> David Smith
>>> MVN.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
> 
> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>>
>>>
> 
> 
>>>
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>
>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>>
>>
>>
>>
> --

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Mike Hammett]

Yeah, the VA's healthcare..  there's a system we all should want.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Robert West" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:24 PM
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

> Why not?  Just extend what is already in place with Medicare and enroll
> people region by region.  While at it, lump the other government single
> payer plans into it like the VA and Railroad Workers.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Josh Luthman
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 9:15 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>
> No, not that simple...
>
> On 12/7/09, Robert West  wrote:
>> Exactly.  We are the one and only industrialized country (with whatever
>> industry we might have left) who puts "profit" in healthcare.  As you
>> stated, their goal is to NOT pay and they can and do come up with 
>> anything
>> they can find to do that.
>>
>> Profit has no place in healthcare.  Single payer is the only thing I see
>> working.  As far as increased taxes to pay for it, we already are paying
> for
>> it and getting zero bang for our buck.  As George from the great white
> north
>> said, healthcare shows up nowhere in his budget.  They just pay extra in
>> taxes.
>>
>> Medicare for all.  End of the controversy.  Simple.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>> Behalf Of Tom Sharples
>> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:24 PM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>>
>> One of the basic probems IMO is that the whole idea of medical insurance,
> as
>>
>> currentlky implemented, is fundamentally flawed. Consider selling ISP
>> services under the model of "broadband insurance." Under that model, your
>> customer would pay you a certain amount per month in case he needs
>> broadband, and you would do your best to find reasons to deny him access.
> Or
>>
>> how about "housing insurance" instead of monthly rent. You pay the
> landlord
>> a certain amount every month in case you need shelter and he
> oversubscribes
>> a number of his units and hires guards to keep people out on various
>> pretexts. Sound completely ridiculous, yet unless you're in an HMO like
>> Kaiser that's the system we have now.
>>
>> What we need is universal (private or public) access to medical care,
>> healthy lifestyle incentives, and the elimination of stupid laws that 
>> only
>> serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription drugs to US
>> consumers, restrict free-market access across state and international
>> lines,create incentives toward excess consumption and CYA medical
> pratices,
>> and only serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription
> drugs
>> to US consumers.
>>
>> Tom S.
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "RickG" 
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:06 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>>
>>
>>> Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not truly
> run
>>> in a "free market". It's "failure" is exactly due to this. Even after 
>>> all
>>> the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have
>>> "access"
>>> to health care?
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 5:58 PM, David E. Smith  wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 16:42, MDK  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > The free market really does work.   We use it daily in our 
>>>> > business...
>>>> > Now
>>>>
>>>> imagine if we used it for health care, too.We know how to do that,
>>>> don't
>>>> > we?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There is a fundamental difference between broadband Internet and basic
>>>> medical care, and the fact that tens of millions of Americans have
> better
>>>> access to the former than the latter shows that in this instance the
> free
>>>> market has failed miserably.
>>>>
>>>> David Smith
>>>> MVN.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>&

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Mike Hammett]

Personal responsibility?  If they choose to buy a 73" LCD TV and a brand new 
Chrysler instead of budgeting for their health, but then run to the ER when 
a kid has a runny nose, they deserve the however many thousand dollar bill 
coming to them.

Advocate and persuade, but don't force.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "David E. Smith" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:19 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 20:15, Josh Luthman 
> wrote:
>
>> No, not that simple...
>>
>
> This I gotta hear. How do you justify not providing health care to any 
> human
> that needs it?
>
> David Smith
> MVN.net
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> 



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[os10rules]

y that you  
>>> are
>>> against the government getting involved in health care, that it is a
>>> Socialist idea. What I haven't heard is any of you saying you  
>>> wanted to stop
>>> Medicare or Social Security or shut down the VA hospitals. Why not?  
>>> These
>>> are Socialist programs. These are Government run programs with no  
>>> choice to
>>> purchase it from the private market. Why haven't you said to stop  
>>> those
>>> programs? You say you believe in the Free Market, but I do not see  
>>> you
>>> asking to stop regulating electricity, or natural gas. Only if we  
>>> let these
>>> companies truly charge whatever they wanted to would it be a free  
>>> market.
>>> Most of you claim to be Christians, but you do not really believe  
>>> what you
>>> preach. A true Christian always wants to help those that are less  
>>> fortunate
>>> than yourself. Well I believe that includes health care. Or does it  
>>> mean you
>>> can pick and choose who should be helped and who shouldn't. Yes, I  
>>> have had
>>> insurance almost my whole life. Some was paid for by my employer,  
>>> some has
>>> been paid for by myself. What I have seen is premiums go up every  
>>> year.
>>> However, the health of this nation ranks in the 30's among other  
>>> nations. We
>>> live 3-7 years less than countries with health care. Does that mean  
>>> National
>>> Health Care will be perfect? I do not think so. That would be like  
>>> me asking
>>> you if your Wireless was up 100% of the time. You would have to  
>>> either say
>>> no, or lie to me. I do not believe there is such a thing as  
>>> perfect, but if
>>> you never try to achieve perfection, you sure as hell will never  
>>> come close
>>> to reaching it. I also notice how everyone seems to know how the  
>>> government
>>> will run Health Care and what is being done wrong. How do you know  
>>> these
>>> things when there is not even a completed bill in the Senate yet?  
>>> Last I
>>> knew, they were still debating what should and what shouldn't be a  
>>> part of
>>> it. Some say we should throw the bill in the Senate away, and start  
>>> over.
>>> Maybe they should have been there when it started. These are the  
>>> congressmen
>>> you should be pissed at. They elected not to participate in the  
>>> beginning,
>>> and now want to cry foul and ask to start over. These are just my  
>>> two cents
>>> on the subject, and because you are still in America, you have the  
>>> right to
>>> disagree, not read this at all and delete it, or respond. Well, I  
>>> guess if
>>> you have read the last line, you now only have two choices left,  
>>> hurry and
>>> decide before there is only one left.
>>> 
>>> Owen Harrell
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
>>> boun...@wispa.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Paul C Diem
>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 1:26 AM
>>> To: 'WISPA General List'
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>>> 
>>> Yup, in the past century, America stopped being the land of  
>>> opportunity and
>>> became the land of guarantees.
>>> 
>>> Paul C Diem
>>> pcd...@foxvalley.net
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
>>> boun...@wispa.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
>>> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:39 PM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Oh boy, here we go.
>>> 
>>> Even more important is water and food.  How about electricity,
>>> transportation, entertainment etc. etc. etc.
>>> 
>>> NOTHING is a basic human  right past opportunity.  The CHANCE to  
>>> make our
>>> own direction is all that God has given us.
>>> marlon
>>> 
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "David E. Smith" 
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:50 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 18:06, RickG  wrote:
>>>

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Matt Liotta]

ieve that includes health care. Or does it  
>> mean you
>> can pick and choose who should be helped and who shouldn't. Yes, I  
>> have had
>> insurance almost my whole life. Some was paid for by my employer,  
>> some has
>> been paid for by myself. What I have seen is premiums go up every  
>> year.
>> However, the health of this nation ranks in the 30's among other  
>> nations. We
>> live 3-7 years less than countries with health care. Does that mean  
>> National
>> Health Care will be perfect? I do not think so. That would be like  
>> me asking
>> you if your Wireless was up 100% of the time. You would have to  
>> either say
>> no, or lie to me. I do not believe there is such a thing as  
>> perfect, but if
>> you never try to achieve perfection, you sure as hell will never  
>> come close
>> to reaching it. I also notice how everyone seems to know how the  
>> government
>> will run Health Care and what is being done wrong. How do you know  
>> these
>> things when there is not even a completed bill in the Senate yet?  
>> Last I
>> knew, they were still debating what should and what shouldn't be a  
>> part of
>> it. Some say we should throw the bill in the Senate away, and start  
>> over.
>> Maybe they should have been there when it started. These are the  
>> congressmen
>> you should be pissed at. They elected not to participate in the  
>> beginning,
>> and now want to cry foul and ask to start over. These are just my  
>> two cents
>> on the subject, and because you are still in America, you have the  
>> right to
>> disagree, not read this at all and delete it, or respond. Well, I  
>> guess if
>> you have read the last line, you now only have two choices left,  
>> hurry and
>> decide before there is only one left.
>>
>> Owen Harrell
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
>> boun...@wispa.org] On
>> Behalf Of Paul C Diem
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 1:26 AM
>> To: 'WISPA General List'
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>>
>> Yup, in the past century, America stopped being the land of  
>> opportunity and
>> became the land of guarantees.
>>
>> Paul C Diem
>> pcd...@foxvalley.net
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
>> boun...@wispa.org] On
>> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
>> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:39 PM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>>
>>
>> Oh boy, here we go.
>>
>> Even more important is water and food.  How about electricity,
>> transportation, entertainment etc. etc. etc.
>>
>> NOTHING is a basic human  right past opportunity.  The CHANCE to  
>> make our
>> own direction is all that God has given us.
>> marlon
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "David E. Smith" 
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:50 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>>
>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 18:06, RickG  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not
>>>> truly
>>>> run
>>>> in a "free market". It's "failure" is exactly due to this. Even  
>>>> after all
>>>> the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have
>>>> "access"
>>>> to health care?
>>>>
>>>
>>> I suppose we're taking fundamentally different approaches to the  
>>> issue
>>> of health care. I don't see it as one that can (or should) be solved
>>> by the free market - as far as I'm concerned, it's a fundamental  
>>> human
>>> right. No person, anywhere on this planet, should have to worry  
>>> about
>>> things like "money" when it comes to basic health and wellness. The
>>> fact that even one American (or anyone else really, but this is a
>>> US-centric list) doesn't, in my mind represents a deep-rooted  
>>> failure
>>> of the free market, and of basic human kindness and compassion.
>>>
>>> David Smith
>>> MVN.net
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> --
>>> WISPA Wants You!

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[os10rules]

 left, hurry and
> decide before there is only one left.
> 
> Owen Harrell
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Paul C Diem
> Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 1:26 AM
> To: 'WISPA General List'
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
> 
> Yup, in the past century, America stopped being the land of opportunity and
> became the land of guarantees.
> 
> Paul C Diem
> pcd...@foxvalley.net 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:39 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
> 
> 
> Oh boy, here we go.
> 
> Even more important is water and food.  How about electricity, 
> transportation, entertainment etc. etc. etc.
> 
> NOTHING is a basic human  right past opportunity.  The CHANCE to make our 
> own direction is all that God has given us.
> marlon
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "David E. Smith" 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
> 
> 
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 18:06, RickG  wrote:
>> 
>>> Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not 
>>> truly
>>> run
>>> in a "free market". It's "failure" is exactly due to this. Even after all
>>> the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have 
>>> "access"
>>> to health care?
>>> 
>> 
>> I suppose we're taking fundamentally different approaches to the issue 
>> of health care. I don't see it as one that can (or should) be solved 
>> by the free market - as far as I'm concerned, it's a fundamental human 
>> right. No person, anywhere on this planet, should have to worry about 
>> things like "money" when it comes to basic health and wellness. The 
>> fact that even one American (or anyone else really, but this is a 
>> US-centric list) doesn't, in my mind represents a deep-rooted failure 
>> of the free market, and of basic human kindness and compassion.
>> 
>> David Smith
>> MVN.net
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> --
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>> 
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: 
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>> 
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Owen Harrell]

I keep reading what everyone is saying about government and
insurance, but I don't really believe you. Most of you say that you are
against the government getting involved in health care, that it is a
Socialist idea. What I haven't heard is any of you saying you wanted to stop
Medicare or Social Security or shut down the VA hospitals. Why not? These
are Socialist programs. These are Government run programs with no choice to
purchase it from the private market. Why haven't you said to stop those
programs? You say you believe in the Free Market, but I do not see you
asking to stop regulating electricity, or natural gas. Only if we let these
companies truly charge whatever they wanted to would it be a free market.
Most of you claim to be Christians, but you do not really believe what you
preach. A true Christian always wants to help those that are less fortunate
than yourself. Well I believe that includes health care. Or does it mean you
can pick and choose who should be helped and who shouldn't. Yes, I have had
insurance almost my whole life. Some was paid for by my employer, some has
been paid for by myself. What I have seen is premiums go up every year.
However, the health of this nation ranks in the 30's among other nations. We
live 3-7 years less than countries with health care. Does that mean National
Health Care will be perfect? I do not think so. That would be like me asking
you if your Wireless was up 100% of the time. You would have to either say
no, or lie to me. I do not believe there is such a thing as perfect, but if
you never try to achieve perfection, you sure as hell will never come close
to reaching it. I also notice how everyone seems to know how the government
will run Health Care and what is being done wrong. How do you know these
things when there is not even a completed bill in the Senate yet? Last I
knew, they were still debating what should and what shouldn't be a part of
it. Some say we should throw the bill in the Senate away, and start over.
Maybe they should have been there when it started. These are the congressmen
you should be pissed at. They elected not to participate in the beginning,
and now want to cry foul and ask to start over. These are just my two cents
on the subject, and because you are still in America, you have the right to
disagree, not read this at all and delete it, or respond. Well, I guess if
you have read the last line, you now only have two choices left, hurry and
decide before there is only one left.

Owen Harrell
 

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Paul C Diem
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 1:26 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

Yup, in the past century, America stopped being the land of opportunity and
became the land of guarantees.

Paul C Diem
pcd...@foxvalley.net 

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:39 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


Oh boy, here we go.

Even more important is water and food.  How about electricity, 
transportation, entertainment etc. etc. etc.

NOTHING is a basic human  right past opportunity.  The CHANCE to make our 
own direction is all that God has given us.
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "David E. Smith" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 18:06, RickG  wrote:
>
>> Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not 
>> truly
>> run
>> in a "free market". It's "failure" is exactly due to this. Even after all
>> the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have 
>> "access"
>> to health care?
>>
>
> I suppose we're taking fundamentally different approaches to the issue 
> of health care. I don't see it as one that can (or should) be solved 
> by the free market - as far as I'm concerned, it's a fundamental human 
> right. No person, anywhere on this planet, should have to worry about 
> things like "money" when it comes to basic health and wellness. The 
> fact that even one American (or anyone else really, but this is a 
> US-centric list) doesn't, in my mind represents a deep-rooted failure 
> of the free market, and of basic human kindness and compassion.
>
> David Smith
> MVN.net
>
>
> --
> --
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>


>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubs

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Paul C Diem]

Yup, in the past century, America stopped being the land of opportunity and
became the land of guarantees.

Paul C Diem
pcd...@foxvalley.net 

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:39 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


Oh boy, here we go.

Even more important is water and food.  How about electricity, 
transportation, entertainment etc. etc. etc.

NOTHING is a basic human  right past opportunity.  The CHANCE to make our 
own direction is all that God has given us.
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "David E. Smith" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 18:06, RickG  wrote:
>
>> Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not 
>> truly
>> run
>> in a "free market". It's "failure" is exactly due to this. Even after all
>> the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have 
>> "access"
>> to health care?
>>
>
> I suppose we're taking fundamentally different approaches to the issue 
> of health care. I don't see it as one that can (or should) be solved 
> by the free market - as far as I'm concerned, it's a fundamental human 
> right. No person, anywhere on this planet, should have to worry about 
> things like "money" when it comes to basic health and wellness. The 
> fact that even one American (or anyone else really, but this is a 
> US-centric list) doesn't, in my mind represents a deep-rooted failure 
> of the free market, and of basic human kindness and compassion.
>
> David Smith
> MVN.net
>
>
> --
> --
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>


>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: 
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Blake Bowers]

Just to break up the insurance thread a bit...

I shot my first turkey today.

It scared the crap out of everyone else in the frozen food section.






Don't take your organs to heaven, 
heaven knows we need them down here!
Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today. 




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[RickG]

"Heck, it works for every other civilized country on the planet, it just
might work here too."
Define "work". Strange, your roads are great there but your health insurance
is too expensive?
Listen, I admire your compassion, although now you admit more self-serving
motives. If you really want to be able to afford yourself some health
insurance, get the government to stop taking so much of your hard earned
money! Of course they cant do that unless they stop giving it away first!

On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 12:17 AM, David E. Smith  wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 23:06, Marlon K. Schafer  >wrote:
>
> > I've always thought this was really pretty easy.
> >
> > Dave, just pick ONE family and pay their insurance for them!  It's well
> > within your right to do so.  And it helps one other family afford health
> > care.
> >
>
> I'm trying to advocate a position I believe will provide affordable (free)
> health care for everyone, which is a net gain for society. Collectively, we
> all would pay less, and most of us as individuals would pay less, for a
> good
> single-payer system. Heck, it works for every other civilized country on
> the
> planet, it just might work here too.
>
> Right now, I'm about two days from dropping my insurance, because my
> out-of-pocket costs just (almost) tripled, even after my employer
> subsidizes
> a healthy chunk of it. (And this is after us switching to a new insurance
> company; the old one was going to raise our rates even more.) I can't
> afford
> to be healthy, which is why I have such a vested interest in health care
> reform of late (and why I still think the bills on the table in Congress
> are
> such jokes - they're basically insurance company handouts).
>
> David Smith
> MVN.net
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Blake Bowers]

Don't take your organs to heaven,
heaven knows we need them down here!
Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today.

- Original Message - 
From: "RickG" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 11:19 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


>>
>> > VA hospital.
>>
>>
>> I've no experience with this.
>>
> I've got many vets for friends or acquaintances. Their experiences with 
> the
> VA are really scary.
>

I bought a couple of med cabinets from the VA a couple of months
ago.

Got them back to the office, had plans to use them for dispensing supplies 
for the
Fire Department EMS responders.

The cabinets were FULL of drugs.  Good stuff too.

And these people are wanting to run our health care?
http://ozarksfirst.com/content/video/?watch=1&cid=187081&shr=addthis




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[RickG]

So a couple of bucks is compationate? How easy it is to spend other peoples
money, eh? Too bad it doesnt work that way. You and I are paying way more
than a couple of bucks. The biggest problem here is that taxes are taken out
of your check automatically. You need to feel it go through your fingers. Do
the math. First off, the total workforce is only about 125 million <
http://www.bls.gov/>. Of those, only the top 50% wage earners (over $32.879)
pay about 95% of the taxes (depending on who you ask) <
http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6>. If you look at the tax burden on
those that pay  there is not enough
to go around. And its not getting any better. I dont know if you have dreams
of becoming financially secure one day but if so, I'd be more concerned. I
dont know how old you are but I'd guess around 30 or less. My concern is
that you'll finally wake up in another 10 years or so when you realize your
taxes are so high its not worth working any more. There has been an upward
trend of many that feel this way. Who will pay for my social security,
medicare, etc then? LOL, they'll force you to work then!
We can agree to disagree on this but I want to talk with you in another
decade ans see how you feel then.
-RickG

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 11:57 PM, David E. Smith  wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 22:48, RickG  wrote:
>
> > As far as compassion, I appreciate yours. I've had some very rough times
> > myself over the years. If/when I get into another rough time, I need to
> > count on you to pay for my health care. Can I give you call?
> >
> >
> I have no problem chipping in a couple bucks. I just want the other three
> hundred million Americans to chip in a couple bucks also, thus evening
> things out.
>
> David Smith
> MVN.net
>
>
>
> 
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> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Blake Bowers]

Don't take your organs to heaven,
heaven knows we need them down here!
Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today.

>>
>> The key is "those that can't." I see it as a humanitarian cause to 
>> provide
>> essential human-welfare services for those who are, through no fault of
>> their own, unable to attain them otherwise. You're welcome to disagree; I
>> genuinely don't understand the logic there, but to each his own.
>>

How dare you.

To presume that your "humanitarian cause" is more important than
what I choose to donate my money to.

This is not making health are humanitarian cause, its about breaking
the bank.

You want to donate to a humanitarian cause, donate to the Red
Cross, or your local Fire Department.  I do, in numbers that would
boggle your mind.  Pick a family and pay their insurance.  Donate to
shop with a cop.  (I would be more than happy to give you an address
to send a check to, but please hurry - we go shopping with the kids next
Saturday)

Or don't.  I won't presume to think that is a requirement for you to
live in the United States.

This new health care plan seems to think it is though.





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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[RickG]

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 11:51 PM, David E. Smith  wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 22:46, Marlon K. Schafer  >wrote:
>
> > Think of the stereotypical government agency.  Driver's license office.
> >
>
> Last time I was there, I was in and out in about ten minutes. Granted, that
> was several years ago; the last few transactions I had with them were
> online.
>
Try dealing with them if you have a problem!

>
>
> > Road department.


>
> Yup, there's roads. They work just fine for driving on. Last time it
> snowed,
> they were even more-or-less clear by the time I was out driving on 'em.
>
Our local roads suck big time. Nationally, look at this:
http://americancity.org/daily/entry/949/
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003226851_fragile26.html
http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2008/06/part_one_america_is_falling_ap.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/26/nyregion/26roads.html
http://www.americablog.com/2008/07/us-infrastructure-falling-apart.html

>
>
>
> > VA hospital.
>
>
> I've no experience with this.
>
I've got many vets for friends or acquaintances. Their experiences with the
VA are really scary.

>
>
> >  Our education system is almost 100%
> > government funded and controlled (ask your local school board just how
> much
> > say they really have) and it's supposedly among the worst in the
> > industrialized world.
> >
>
> I think I turned out okay, though I imagine at this point some of you
> disagree :v
>
>
> >
> > Do you REALLY think that the government will finally, somehow, magically
> > start doing a good job with health care?  Honestly?  How would it be any
> > different than any other government agency?
> >
>
> I have no problem with any of these examples.
>
 Are you sure?

>
>
>
> David Smith
> MVN.net
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[David E. Smith]

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 23:06, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

> I've always thought this was really pretty easy.
>
> Dave, just pick ONE family and pay their insurance for them!  It's well
> within your right to do so.  And it helps one other family afford health
> care.
>

I'm trying to advocate a position I believe will provide affordable (free)
health care for everyone, which is a net gain for society. Collectively, we
all would pay less, and most of us as individuals would pay less, for a good
single-payer system. Heck, it works for every other civilized country on the
planet, it just might work here too.

Right now, I'm about two days from dropping my insurance, because my
out-of-pocket costs just (almost) tripled, even after my employer subsidizes
a healthy chunk of it. (And this is after us switching to a new insurance
company; the old one was going to raise our rates even more.) I can't afford
to be healthy, which is why I have such a vested interest in health care
reform of late (and why I still think the bills on the table in Congress are
such jokes - they're basically insurance company handouts).

David Smith
MVN.net



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Faisal Imtiaz]

Being in South Florida, a lot of Folks get offended with anything to do with
Cuba...

How about a compromise Mexico any one ?

..Take a look at John Stewart's report http://www.thedailyshow.com/
  
   


Faisal Imtiaz
Computer Office Solutions Inc. /SnappyDSL.net
Ph: (305) 663-5518 x 232
-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 11:52 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

Wow...speechless.  I suggest you visit Cuba for all your health care needs.
You won't and you know it.

Brad

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Robert West
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 9:22 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

Actually, most of the advancement now is coming from other countries.  We're
behind but since we live in it, we can't smell it.  We rank near number 37
in health care, that certainly is not being a leader.  Even our friend, Cuba
ranks higher than we do.  Shameful for a country as well off as we are.



-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Blake Bowers
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 9:34 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

With no profit we would have no advancement.


Don't take your organs to heaven,
heaven knows we need them down here!
Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today.

- Original Message -
From: "Robert West" 
To: "'Tom Sharples'" ; "'WISPA General List'" 

Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


> Exactly.  We are the one and only industrialized country (with whatever
> industry we might have left) who puts "profit" in healthcare.  As you
> stated, their goal is to NOT pay and they can and do come up with anything
> they can find to do that.
>
> Profit has no place in healthcare.  Single payer is the only thing I see
> working.  As far as increased taxes to pay for it, we already are paying 
> for
> it and getting zero bang for our buck.  As George from the great white 
> north
> said, healthcare shows up nowhere in his budget.  They just pay extra in
> taxes.
>
> Medicare for all.  End of the controversy.  Simple.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Tom Sharples
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:24 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>
> One of the basic probems IMO is that the whole idea of medical insurance, 
> as
>
> currentlky implemented, is fundamentally flawed. Consider selling ISP
> services under the model of "broadband insurance." Under that model, your
> customer would pay you a certain amount per month in case he needs
> broadband, and you would do your best to find reasons to deny him access. 
> Or
>
> how about "housing insurance" instead of monthly rent. You pay the 
> landlord
> a certain amount every month in case you need shelter and he 
> oversubscribes
> a number of his units and hires guards to keep people out on various
> pretexts. Sound completely ridiculous, yet unless you're in an HMO like
> Kaiser that's the system we have now.
>
> What we need is universal (private or public) access to medical care,
> healthy lifestyle incentives, and the elimination of stupid laws that only
> serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription drugs to US
> consumers, restrict free-market access across state and international
> lines,create incentives toward excess consumption and CYA medical 
> pratices,
> and only serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription 
> drugs
> to US consumers.
>
> Tom S.
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "RickG" 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>
>
>> Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not truly 
>> run
>> in a "free market". It's "failure" is exactly due to this. Even after all
>> the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have
>> "access"
>> to health care?
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 5:58 PM, David E. Smith  wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 16:42, MDK  wrote:
>>>
>>> > The free market really does work.   We use it daily in our business...
>>> > Now
>>>
>>> imagine if we used it for health care, too.We kn

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[David E. Smith]

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 23:01, Blake Bowers  wrote:

>
> http://www.cahi.org/cahi_contents/resources/pdf/CAHI_Medicare_Admin_Final_Publication.pdf
>
> "The Council for Affordable Health Insurance (CAHI) is an association of
insurance companies, actuarial firms, legislative consultants, ... "

I think your source is just as biased as mine, only the other way. :)

David Smith
MVN.net



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Marlon K. Schafer]

I've always thought this was really pretty easy.

Dave, just pick ONE family and pay their insurance for them!  It's well 
within your right to do so.  And it helps one other family afford health 
care.

I give a lot of food away.  I give internet away.  I let others us my land 
for free.  But *I* get to pick who I do that for.  That's what freedom is.

If someone else were to tell me who to feed, who to let on my property, who 
to give my internet to, I've not lost me freedom.  If I loose my freedom 
what do I have left to work for?  To fight for?  To die for?

marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "David E. Smith" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 22:06, RickG  wrote:
>
>> Um, thats what happens now. I pay mine and you pay yours. So, wheres the
>> problem? Oh ya, there are those that cant or choose not to. So now we 
>> want
>> to force them to? And I thought this country was founded on freedom?
>>
>
> The key is "those that can't." I see it as a humanitarian cause to provide
> essential human-welfare services for those who are, through no fault of
> their own, unable to attain them otherwise. You're welcome to disagree; I
> genuinely don't understand the logic there, but to each his own.
>
> David Smith
> MVN.net
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Blake Bowers]

David,

Have you actually spent some time reading that web page?

They are talking about a government takeover of all health care
companies, hospitals, clincsetc.  IE, in a privately held clinics the
government can come and take it away.

Sure, they would have to pay brick and mortar costs, but nothing
on the value of the business.

It is a scary proposition, and I tend to discount their information.

One might spend some time reading this,
http://www.cahi.org/cahi_contents/resources/pdf/CAHI_Medicare_Admin_Final_Publication.pdf

Around page 5 had some very interesting reading, such as the
expenses that private companies and MEDICARE have, that
are counted as costs in private companies but not in government
run Medicare.

Pretty much lays your figures to waste.


Don't take your organs to heaven,
heaven knows we need them down here!
Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today.

- Original Message - 
From: "David E. Smith" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


> >
>>
>> Source please?
>>
>>
> http://www.pnhp.org/facts/single-payer-faq
>
> (The overhead numbers come from "Won't this be just another bureaucracy?")
>
> David Smith
> MVN.net
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Marlon K. Schafer]

- Original Message - 
From: "David E. Smith" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 21:37, MDK  wrote:
>
>> Medicare reimburses doctors, hospitals, etc, somewhere between 10 and 60%
>> of
>> the COST of what people who are on medicare actually get.The rest of 
>> us
>> who actually PAY are paying to subsidize them.
>>
>
> Source?
>
> (The real number is closer to 85%, and if doctors' offices didn't have to
> retain such large billing staffs to constantly bird-dog recalcitrant
> insurance companies, that rate would be more than fair.)

I've been involved in the local hospital here.  The number is all over the 
board.

A recent example they had was Pnemonia (or some similar thing, can't 
remember at the moment).  Medicare pays for 4 days of hospital stay.  If you 
can push the patient out in 3 days you make money.  If you have to keep them 
for 7 days you loose money.  The reimbursement is NOT at all related to that 
patient's actual costs.  It's only related to what the government says they 
SHOULD have cost.

Just think if you were paid to fix things based on what the customer (the 
goverment IS the customer remember) thought it SHOULD have cost.  "Yes Mr. 
Smith, I'm quite sure that it should have only taken 20 minutes to properly 
install XP on that 5 year old computer."

Even IF your number of 85% was a real average (60% is the number I remember 
being told by our hospital administrator) that's a COST reimbursement.  No 
profit there.  What do you think John could afford to pay you if the 
customers only paid 85% of the COSTS of being in business?

>
>
>> Frankly, for those of you want a single payer system...   Could you tell
>> the
>> rest of us what experience you have with a federal agency that has so
>> inspired you with confidence over their efficiency, responsiveness, 
>> wisdom,
>> and fantastic ability, that you stood in awe and said "I want them in
>> charge
>> of my life!"
>
>
> Yup. Medicare. Very simple program, very low overhead (on the order of 3%,
> as compared to about 20% for the typical insurance company). Proven to
> improve health care outcomes for those covered by it.

Um, that's NOT at all correct.  If its such a great program why does every 
other ad on TV try to talk you into buying suplimental insurance?  Honestly, 
why is there a need for insurance on top of Medicare?

marlon

>
> David Smith
> MVN.net
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[David E. Smith]

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 22:48, RickG  wrote:

> As far as compassion, I appreciate yours. I've had some very rough times
> myself over the years. If/when I get into another rough time, I need to
> count on you to pay for my health care. Can I give you call?
>
>
I have no problem chipping in a couple bucks. I just want the other three
hundred million Americans to chip in a couple bucks also, thus evening
things out.

David Smith
MVN.net



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Brad Belton]

Well, that does explain a lot.  Thank you for your honesty.

Brad

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of David E. Smith
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 10:22 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 22:21, RickG  wrote:

> David,
> Forgive me, this is not a personal attack. I dont see it on your website
so
> I have to ask, you dont own mvn.net do you? The reason I ask is that you
> come off with an employee mentality rather than from an owner perspective.
> I'm
> just curious.
>

Not sure what it has to do with anything, but no, I'm not the owner of that
company.

David Smith
MVN.net




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Brad Belton]

Wow...speechless.  I suggest you visit Cuba for all your health care needs.
You won't and you know it.

Brad

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Robert West
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 9:22 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

Actually, most of the advancement now is coming from other countries.  We're
behind but since we live in it, we can't smell it.  We rank near number 37
in health care, that certainly is not being a leader.  Even our friend, Cuba
ranks higher than we do.  Shameful for a country as well off as we are.



-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Blake Bowers
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 9:34 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

With no profit we would have no advancement.


Don't take your organs to heaven,
heaven knows we need them down here!
Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today.

- Original Message - 
From: "Robert West" 
To: "'Tom Sharples'" ; "'WISPA General List'" 

Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


> Exactly.  We are the one and only industrialized country (with whatever
> industry we might have left) who puts "profit" in healthcare.  As you
> stated, their goal is to NOT pay and they can and do come up with anything
> they can find to do that.
>
> Profit has no place in healthcare.  Single payer is the only thing I see
> working.  As far as increased taxes to pay for it, we already are paying 
> for
> it and getting zero bang for our buck.  As George from the great white 
> north
> said, healthcare shows up nowhere in his budget.  They just pay extra in
> taxes.
>
> Medicare for all.  End of the controversy.  Simple.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Tom Sharples
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:24 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>
> One of the basic probems IMO is that the whole idea of medical insurance, 
> as
>
> currentlky implemented, is fundamentally flawed. Consider selling ISP
> services under the model of "broadband insurance." Under that model, your
> customer would pay you a certain amount per month in case he needs
> broadband, and you would do your best to find reasons to deny him access. 
> Or
>
> how about "housing insurance" instead of monthly rent. You pay the 
> landlord
> a certain amount every month in case you need shelter and he 
> oversubscribes
> a number of his units and hires guards to keep people out on various
> pretexts. Sound completely ridiculous, yet unless you're in an HMO like
> Kaiser that's the system we have now.
>
> What we need is universal (private or public) access to medical care,
> healthy lifestyle incentives, and the elimination of stupid laws that only
> serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription drugs to US
> consumers, restrict free-market access across state and international
> lines,create incentives toward excess consumption and CYA medical 
> pratices,
> and only serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription 
> drugs
> to US consumers.
>
> Tom S.
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "RickG" 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>
>
>> Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not truly 
>> run
>> in a "free market". It's "failure" is exactly due to this. Even after all
>> the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have
>> "access"
>> to health care?
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 5:58 PM, David E. Smith  wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 16:42, MDK  wrote:
>>>
>>> > The free market really does work.   We use it daily in our business...
>>> > Now
>>>
>>> imagine if we used it for health care, too.We know how to do that,
>>> don't
>>> > we?
>>>
>>>
>>> There is a fundamental difference between broadband Internet and basic
>>> medical care, and the fact that tens of millions of Americans have 
>>> better
>>> access to the former than the latter shows that in this instance the 
>>> free
>>> market has failed miserably.
>>>
>>> David Smith
>>> MVN.net
&g

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[David E. Smith]

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 22:46, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

> Think of the stereotypical government agency.  Driver's license office.
>

Last time I was there, I was in and out in about ten minutes. Granted, that
was several years ago; the last few transactions I had with them were
online.


> Road department.


Yup, there's roads. They work just fine for driving on. Last time it snowed,
they were even more-or-less clear by the time I was out driving on 'em.



> VA hospital.


I've no experience with this.


>  Our education system is almost 100%
> government funded and controlled (ask your local school board just how much
> say they really have) and it's supposedly among the worst in the
> industrialized world.
>

I think I turned out okay, though I imagine at this point some of you
disagree :v


>
> Do you REALLY think that the government will finally, somehow, magically
> start doing a good job with health care?  Honestly?  How would it be any
> different than any other government agency?
>

I have no problem with any of these examples.



David Smith
MVN.net



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[RickG]

 "Those that cant" are already covered by the generosity of the US taxpayer.
That goes back to my original question: Who does not have access?

As far as compassion, I appreciate yours. I've had some very rough times
myself over the years. If/when I get into another rough time, I need to
count on you to pay for my health care. Can I give you call?

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 11:30 PM, David E. Smith  wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 22:06, RickG  wrote:
>
> > Um, thats what happens now. I pay mine and you pay yours. So, wheres the
> > problem? Oh ya, there are those that cant or choose not to. So now we
> want
> > to force them to? And I thought this country was founded on freedom?
> >
>
> The key is "those that can't." I see it as a humanitarian cause to provide
> essential human-welfare services for those who are, through no fault of
> their own, unable to attain them otherwise. You're welcome to disagree; I
> genuinely don't understand the logic there, but to each his own.
>
> David Smith
> MVN.net
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
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>
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>



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Brad Belton]

No kidding.  No profits no medical advancements.  Where do people go when
they seek the best doctors and health system in the world?  America.

Brad

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:15 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

No, not that simple...

On 12/7/09, Robert West  wrote:
> Exactly.  We are the one and only industrialized country (with whatever
> industry we might have left) who puts "profit" in healthcare.  As you
> stated, their goal is to NOT pay and they can and do come up with anything
> they can find to do that.
>
> Profit has no place in healthcare.  Single payer is the only thing I see
> working.  As far as increased taxes to pay for it, we already are paying
for
> it and getting zero bang for our buck.  As George from the great white
north
> said, healthcare shows up nowhere in his budget.  They just pay extra in
> taxes.
>
> Medicare for all.  End of the controversy.  Simple.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Tom Sharples
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:24 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>
> One of the basic probems IMO is that the whole idea of medical insurance,
as
>
> currentlky implemented, is fundamentally flawed. Consider selling ISP
> services under the model of "broadband insurance." Under that model, your
> customer would pay you a certain amount per month in case he needs
> broadband, and you would do your best to find reasons to deny him access.
Or
>
> how about "housing insurance" instead of monthly rent. You pay the
landlord
> a certain amount every month in case you need shelter and he
oversubscribes
> a number of his units and hires guards to keep people out on various
> pretexts. Sound completely ridiculous, yet unless you're in an HMO like
> Kaiser that's the system we have now.
>
> What we need is universal (private or public) access to medical care,
> healthy lifestyle incentives, and the elimination of stupid laws that only
> serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription drugs to US
> consumers, restrict free-market access across state and international
> lines,create incentives toward excess consumption and CYA medical
pratices,
> and only serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription
drugs
> to US consumers.
>
> Tom S.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "RickG" 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>
>
>> Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not truly
run
>> in a "free market". It's "failure" is exactly due to this. Even after all
>> the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have
>> "access"
>> to health care?
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 5:58 PM, David E. Smith  wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 16:42, MDK  wrote:
>>>
>>> > The free market really does work.   We use it daily in our business...
>>> > Now
>>>
>>> imagine if we used it for health care, too.We know how to do that,
>>> don't
>>> > we?
>>>
>>>
>>> There is a fundamental difference between broadband Internet and basic
>>> medical care, and the fact that tens of millions of Americans have
better
>>> access to the former than the latter shows that in this instance the
free
>>> market has failed miserably.
>>>
>>> David Smith
>>> MVN.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>

> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>>
>>>
>

> 
>>>
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>

> 
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>>

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Marlon K. Schafer]

This is really not that complicated Dave.

Would you work for minimum wage?  Would you work for a wage that you had NO 
control over?

No you wouldn't.  Those that are only mediocre will because they know that 
they can't advance on the merit of their own work.  But those that excel 
want to control their own destiny.  They work harder and expect (and get) 
more pay.

Think of the stereotypical government agency.  Driver's license office. 
Road department.  VA hospital.  Our education system is almost 100% 
government funded and controlled (ask your local school board just how much 
say they really have) and it's supposedly among the worst in the 
industrialized world.

Do you REALLY think that the government will finally, somehow, magically 
start doing a good job with health care?  Honestly?  How would it be any 
different than any other government agency?
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "David E. Smith" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 6:34 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 19:52, RickG  wrote:
>
>> Dave, I like that idea. Will you pay for my health costs then?
>>
>
> That's exactly how "single payer" works. Everyone pays in a bit, nobody
> worries about it. I'll pay my share if you pay yours. :)
>
> David Smith
> MVN.net
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[RickG]

Please, not another thug group out of Chicago :(
http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/05/physicians-for-national-health-program.html

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 11:24 PM, David E. Smith  wrote:

> >
> >
> > Source please?
> >
> >
> http://www.pnhp.org/facts/single-payer-faq
>
> (The overhead numbers come from "Won't this be just another bureaucracy?")
>
> David Smith
> MVN.net
>
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[David E. Smith]

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 22:06, RickG  wrote:

> Um, thats what happens now. I pay mine and you pay yours. So, wheres the
> problem? Oh ya, there are those that cant or choose not to. So now we want
> to force them to? And I thought this country was founded on freedom?
>

The key is "those that can't." I see it as a humanitarian cause to provide
essential human-welfare services for those who are, through no fault of
their own, unable to attain them otherwise. You're welcome to disagree; I
genuinely don't understand the logic there, but to each his own.

David Smith
MVN.net



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[RickG]

When you own a business, you take a huge risk using a lot of blood, sweat,
tears, time away from the family, worrying about the baby. Then you have to
fight for it because all they want to do is take it away. It changes your
perspective on life and the order of things.

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 11:22 PM, David E. Smith  wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 22:21, RickG  wrote:
>
> > David,
> > Forgive me, this is not a personal attack. I dont see it on your website
> so
> > I have to ask, you dont own mvn.net do you? The reason I ask is that you
> > come off with an employee mentality rather than from an owner
> perspective.
> > I'm
> > just curious.
> >
>
> Not sure what it has to do with anything, but no, I'm not the owner of that
> company.
>
> David Smith
> MVN.net
>
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[David E. Smith]

>
>
> Source please?
>
>
http://www.pnhp.org/facts/single-payer-faq

(The overhead numbers come from "Won't this be just another bureaucracy?")

David Smith
MVN.net



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Blake Bowers]

Agreed!  Sort of my point.

Utopia is the dream, reality is the nightmare!


Don't take your organs to heaven,
heaven knows we need them down here!
Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today.

- Original Message - 
From: "Josh Luthman" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


> If anything were as simple as flick of a switch we wouldn't be in a mess.
>
> Free health care to everyone, feeding every hungry mouth and providing
> good homes to every child is something we can all hope for but will
> never see.  I'm sorry, but this is real life.
>
> If you can prove me wrong, do so, and you will be remembered for all
> of humanity.
>
> On 12/7/09, Blake Bowers  wrote:
>>
>> Don't take your organs to heaven,
>> heaven knows we need them down here!
>> Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today.
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "David E. Smith" 
>>>
>>>
>>> Yup. Medicare. Very simple program, very low overhead (on the order of 
>>> 3%,
>>> as compared to about 20% for the typical insurance company). Proven to
>>> improve health care outcomes for those covered by it.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Source please?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
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>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
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>
>
> -- 
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
> --- Albert Einstein
>
>
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[David E. Smith]

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 22:21, RickG  wrote:

> David,
> Forgive me, this is not a personal attack. I dont see it on your website so
> I have to ask, you dont own mvn.net do you? The reason I ask is that you
> come off with an employee mentality rather than from an owner perspective.
> I'm
> just curious.
>

Not sure what it has to do with anything, but no, I'm not the owner of that
company.

David Smith
MVN.net



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[RickG]

David,
Forgive me, this is not a personal attack. I dont see it on your website so
I have to ask, you dont own mvn.net do you? The reason I ask is that you
come off with an employee mentality rather than from an owner perspective. I'm
just curious.

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 10:53 PM, David E. Smith  wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 21:37, MDK  wrote:
>
> > Medicare reimburses doctors, hospitals, etc, somewhere between 10 and 60%
> > of
> > the COST of what people who are on medicare actually get.The rest of
> us
> > who actually PAY are paying to subsidize them.
> >
>
> Source?
>
> (The real number is closer to 85%, and if doctors' offices didn't have to
> retain such large billing staffs to constantly bird-dog recalcitrant
> insurance companies, that rate would be more than fair.)
>
>
> > Frankly, for those of you want a single payer system...   Could you tell
> > the
> > rest of us what experience you have with a federal agency that has so
> > inspired you with confidence over their efficiency, responsiveness,
> wisdom,
> > and fantastic ability, that you stood in awe and said "I want them in
> > charge
> > of my life!"
>
>
> Yup. Medicare. Very simple program, very low overhead (on the order of 3%,
> as compared to about 20% for the typical insurance company). Proven to
> improve health care outcomes for those covered by it.
>
> David Smith
> MVN.net
>
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Josh Luthman]

If anything were as simple as flick of a switch we wouldn't be in a mess.

Free health care to everyone, feeding every hungry mouth and providing
good homes to every child is something we can all hope for but will
never see.  I'm sorry, but this is real life.

If you can prove me wrong, do so, and you will be remembered for all
of humanity.

On 12/7/09, Blake Bowers  wrote:
>
> Don't take your organs to heaven,
> heaven knows we need them down here!
> Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "David E. Smith" 
>>
>>
>> Yup. Medicare. Very simple program, very low overhead (on the order of 3%,
>> as compared to about 20% for the typical insurance company). Proven to
>> improve health care outcomes for those covered by it.
>>
>
>
> Source please?
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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-- 
Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
--- Albert Einstein



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Blake Bowers]

Don't take your organs to heaven,
heaven knows we need them down here!
Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today.

- Original Message - 
From: "David E. Smith" 
>
>
> Yup. Medicare. Very simple program, very low overhead (on the order of 3%,
> as compared to about 20% for the typical insurance company). Proven to
> improve health care outcomes for those covered by it.
>


Source please?





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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[RickG]

Um, thats what happens now. I pay mine and you pay yours. So, wheres the
problem? Oh ya, there are those that cant or choose not to. So now we want
to force them to? And I thought this country was founded on freedom?

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 9:34 PM, David E. Smith  wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 19:52, RickG  wrote:
>
> > Dave, I like that idea. Will you pay for my health costs then?
> >
>
> That's exactly how "single payer" works. Everyone pays in a bit, nobody
> worries about it. I'll pay my share if you pay yours. :)
>
> David Smith
> MVN.net
>
>
>
> 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[David E. Smith]

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 21:37, MDK  wrote:

> Medicare reimburses doctors, hospitals, etc, somewhere between 10 and 60%
> of
> the COST of what people who are on medicare actually get.The rest of us
> who actually PAY are paying to subsidize them.
>

Source?

(The real number is closer to 85%, and if doctors' offices didn't have to
retain such large billing staffs to constantly bird-dog recalcitrant
insurance companies, that rate would be more than fair.)


> Frankly, for those of you want a single payer system...   Could you tell
> the
> rest of us what experience you have with a federal agency that has so
> inspired you with confidence over their efficiency, responsiveness, wisdom,
> and fantastic ability, that you stood in awe and said "I want them in
> charge
> of my life!"


Yup. Medicare. Very simple program, very low overhead (on the order of 3%,
as compared to about 20% for the typical insurance company). Proven to
improve health care outcomes for those covered by it.

David Smith
MVN.net



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Blake Bowers]

Lets get our fact straight.

The WHO report that you are referencing that puts us
at 37 is also reported to have a number of flaws.

And Cuba on that report is actually lower than the US, at #39.

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

Canada at 30 is laughable - as evidenced by the daily
bus trips made in to the US for people to pay to see
a doctor, versus waiting on the Canadian health care
system.

http://www.healthandsharing.com/21/articledetail

has some interesting facts, I really like the one about the
the member of the Canadian Parliment, who when faced with
cancer jumped ship on the Canadian health care system, to seek
care in the US.

And what country is the leader in medical research and innovation
other (moreso) than the US?  Cite, please.






Don't take your organs to heaven,
heaven knows we need them down here!
Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today.

- Original Message - 
From: "Robert West" 
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


> Actually, most of the advancement now is coming from other countries. 
> We're
> behind but since we live in it, we can't smell it.  We rank near number 37
> in health care, that certainly is not being a leader.  Even our friend, 
> Cuba
> ranks higher than we do.  Shameful for a country as well off as we are.
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Blake Bowers
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 9:34 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>
> With no profit we would have no advancement.
>
>
> Don't take your organs to heaven,
> heaven knows we need them down here!
> Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today.
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Robert West" 
> To: "'Tom Sharples'" ; "'WISPA General List'"
> 
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>
>
>> Exactly.  We are the one and only industrialized country (with whatever
>> industry we might have left) who puts "profit" in healthcare.  As you
>> stated, their goal is to NOT pay and they can and do come up with 
>> anything
>> they can find to do that.
>>
>> Profit has no place in healthcare.  Single payer is the only thing I see
>> working.  As far as increased taxes to pay for it, we already are paying
>> for
>> it and getting zero bang for our buck.  As George from the great white
>> north
>> said, healthcare shows up nowhere in his budget.  They just pay extra in
>> taxes.
>>
>> Medicare for all.  End of the controversy.  Simple.
>>




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[David E. Smith]

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 21:29, Robert West wrote:

> They will come up with new drugs, not to worry.  Even at 5 bucks a bottle
> they can make millions.  Besides, they choose to leech cash from us because
> we're the only fools to allow it.  Turn off the spigot and they will find a
> new revenue stream.  Guaranteed.  Besides, they were discovering drugs WAY
> before the HMO came along.
>
>
I'm still trying to find a source for this, but I'm reasonably certain that
a healthy majority of basic research is done by research universities,
mostly funded by government grants from institutions like NIH. Typically, a
for-profit company will license a discovery from a research institution, do
the regulatory work, product-ize it, and rake in the cash. Even in the
absence of a profit motive, this research will continue.

David Smith
MVN.net



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[MDK]

So is food an absolute necessity.

Does this mean we should have a single farmer system run by the government?

Maybe we should have a single ISP system, run by the government?   Single 
car maker, run by the government?Single housing contractor, run by 
Congress?Single clothing maker, the federal clothing agency?

Come on.   You just can't go there, can you?Well, some people would. 
They view government as holy and perfect, and just have a religious faith in 
it.The rest of us live in the real world and it would seem that given a 
few minutes of thought,  it makes less than no sense to have the government 
run health care.

Medicare?Please.Don't even dream of such nonsense.

Medicare reimburses doctors, hospitals, etc, somewhere between 10 and 60% of 
the COST of what people who are on medicare actually get.The rest of us 
who actually PAY are paying to subsidize them.

If everyone were transferred to Medicare, it would take somewhere between 90 
and 270 days for almost every hospital, doctor's office, etc, to either go 
bankrupt or close voluntarily. At the rates at which Mecicare pays, the 
best doctor you could get would be an email conference with some guy in 
India who collects $3 per consult.

It is NOT an option.

Frankly, for those of you want a single payer system...   Could you tell the 
rest of us what experience you have with a federal agency that has so 
inspired you with confidence over their efficiency, responsiveness, wisdom, 
and fantastic ability, that you stood in awe and said "I want them in charge 
of my life!" And, not only did that, but in your mind, completely made 
up for the Postal service, the IRS, EPA, and all the other alphabet soup 
which are stunning examples of "how to be wrong, wasteful, stupid and 
irresponsible, overbearing, abusive, rude, power-trip seekers, and yet never 
get fired"?

If that hasn't happened to you, then what sort of fantasy do you indulge in, 
that makes you think the government is just so darn good at running stuff? 
Please provide an example of how the federal government is such a fantastic 
administrator of our money, while you're at it...

I have just GOT to know where these fantasies... Or, maybe they are real 
life experiences - the likes of which I have never witnessed, read about, 
heard about, seen, or experienced personally...   Come from, that so inspire 
people to put their life in the hands of Congress.

My experience says I'd rather do surgery on myself.



--
From: "David E. Smith" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:50 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 18:06, RickG  wrote:
>
>> Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not truly 
>> run
>> in a "free market". It's "failure" is exactly due to this. Even after all
>> the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have 
>> "access"
>> to health care?
>>
>
> I suppose we're taking fundamentally different approaches to the issue of
> health care. I don't see it as one that can (or should) be solved by the
> free market - as far as I'm concerned, it's a fundamental human right. No
> person, anywhere on this planet, should have to worry about things like
> "money" when it comes to basic health and wellness. The fact that even one
> American (or anyone else really, but this is a US-centric list) doesn't, 
> in
> my mind represents a deep-rooted failure of the free market, and of basic
> human kindness and compassion.
>
> David Smith
> MVN.net
 




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Robert West]

We stand alone in so many wrong ways, huh.

Ya think the reason they live so long in Japan is based partly on those
smart toilets that do everything including wiping your butt?



-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of David E. Smith
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 10:28 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 21:22, Robert West wrote:

> Actually, most of the advancement now is coming from other countries.
>  We're
> behind but since we live in it, we can't smell it.  We rank near number 37
> in health care, that certainly is not being a leader.  Even our friend,
> Cuba
> ranks higher than we do.  Shameful for a country as well off as we are.
>

http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/health/spend/cost_longlife75.gif

I find that chart (showing average life expectancy versus per-capita
expenditures on health care) generally does a better job of showing how
wasteful the American health care system is than just about any number of
words.

David Smith
MVN.net




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Robert West]

They will come up with new drugs, not to worry.  Even at 5 bucks a bottle
they can make millions.  Besides, they choose to leech cash from us because
we're the only fools to allow it.  Turn off the spigot and they will find a
new revenue stream.  Guaranteed.  Besides, they were discovering drugs WAY
before the HMO came along.





-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 9:52 PM
To: fai...@snappydsl.net; WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

Somebody's got to pay for the R&D and to allow the pharmaceutical companies
to make a profit so people invest so that they can afford to invent the next
wonder drug. Right it's Americans who are paying for that. The drug
companies could charge everyone $88.33 if we all paid the same price. But
then $88.33 would be deemed unfair for the people in the 3rd world (though
somehow it's fair for people in the US to pay for all of the R&D and half
the cost of the drug for people in the third world). Or we could force the
drug companies to sell their product to everyone for $5 then they go out of
business or at least stop inventing and instead go into the generic business
and no new drugs come down the pike. Don't think the drug companies could
spend time and money pursuing new drugs (not every pursuit bears fruit) and
make a profit if they sold their drugs everywhere at $5 a dose. But what
you're talking about will come to pass. If the companies can't make a
substantial profit in the
  US market (allowing them to be philanthropic in the foreign markets) then
drug prices will have to go up in Europe and Asia, and unfortunately many of
the local people in those markets won't be able to afford it.

I see drug companies selling drugs at a fraction of their real cost in the
third world as a sign of generosity and compassion, not what's wrong with
the system.

On Dec 7, 2009, at 8:19 PM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote:

> E.g.  You can purchase Medical Drugs, Mfg. By the same American
Company,
> for $10 in Canada, and the same  in the Far East for $5, but here in the
US
> you would have to pay $ 250 ..





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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[David E. Smith]

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 21:22, Robert West wrote:

> Actually, most of the advancement now is coming from other countries.
>  We're
> behind but since we live in it, we can't smell it.  We rank near number 37
> in health care, that certainly is not being a leader.  Even our friend,
> Cuba
> ranks higher than we do.  Shameful for a country as well off as we are.
>

http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/health/spend/cost_longlife75.gif

I find that chart (showing average life expectancy versus per-capita
expenditures on health care) generally does a better job of showing how
wasteful the American health care system is than just about any number of
words.

David Smith
MVN.net



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Robert West]

That's right and YOU are already paying it!  The ones who are not insured
cost you in increased taxes.  You already pay for it.  We all already pay
for it one way or another, just shift where the money goes and we will all
benefit instead of throwing that money away and people still suffer.  What a
waste.




-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of David E. Smith
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 9:34 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 19:52, RickG  wrote:

> Dave, I like that idea. Will you pay for my health costs then?
>

That's exactly how "single payer" works. Everyone pays in a bit, nobody
worries about it. I'll pay my share if you pay yours. :)

David Smith
MVN.net




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Robert West]

Actually, most of the advancement now is coming from other countries.  We're
behind but since we live in it, we can't smell it.  We rank near number 37
in health care, that certainly is not being a leader.  Even our friend, Cuba
ranks higher than we do.  Shameful for a country as well off as we are.



-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Blake Bowers
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 9:34 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

With no profit we would have no advancement.


Don't take your organs to heaven,
heaven knows we need them down here!
Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today.

- Original Message - 
From: "Robert West" 
To: "'Tom Sharples'" ; "'WISPA General List'" 

Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


> Exactly.  We are the one and only industrialized country (with whatever
> industry we might have left) who puts "profit" in healthcare.  As you
> stated, their goal is to NOT pay and they can and do come up with anything
> they can find to do that.
>
> Profit has no place in healthcare.  Single payer is the only thing I see
> working.  As far as increased taxes to pay for it, we already are paying 
> for
> it and getting zero bang for our buck.  As George from the great white 
> north
> said, healthcare shows up nowhere in his budget.  They just pay extra in
> taxes.
>
> Medicare for all.  End of the controversy.  Simple.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Tom Sharples
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:24 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>
> One of the basic probems IMO is that the whole idea of medical insurance, 
> as
>
> currentlky implemented, is fundamentally flawed. Consider selling ISP
> services under the model of "broadband insurance." Under that model, your
> customer would pay you a certain amount per month in case he needs
> broadband, and you would do your best to find reasons to deny him access. 
> Or
>
> how about "housing insurance" instead of monthly rent. You pay the 
> landlord
> a certain amount every month in case you need shelter and he 
> oversubscribes
> a number of his units and hires guards to keep people out on various
> pretexts. Sound completely ridiculous, yet unless you're in an HMO like
> Kaiser that's the system we have now.
>
> What we need is universal (private or public) access to medical care,
> healthy lifestyle incentives, and the elimination of stupid laws that only
> serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription drugs to US
> consumers, restrict free-market access across state and international
> lines,create incentives toward excess consumption and CYA medical 
> pratices,
> and only serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription 
> drugs
> to US consumers.
>
> Tom S.
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "RickG" 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>
>
>> Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not truly 
>> run
>> in a "free market". It's "failure" is exactly due to this. Even after all
>> the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have
>> "access"
>> to health care?
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 5:58 PM, David E. Smith  wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 16:42, MDK  wrote:
>>>
>>> > The free market really does work.   We use it daily in our business...
>>> > Now
>>>
>>> imagine if we used it for health care, too.We know how to do that,
>>> don't
>>> > we?
>>>
>>>
>>> There is a fundamental difference between broadband Internet and basic
>>> medical care, and the fact that tens of millions of Americans have 
>>> better
>>> access to the former than the latter shows that in this instance the 
>>> free
>>> market has failed miserably.
>>>
>>> David Smith
>>> MVN.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>

> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>>
>>>
>

> 
>>>
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wi

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[George Morris]

I'd like to make a quick comment about single payer.

Its generally painted as being a great socialist evil in the US.

That's not quite true, although there are bound to be instances where its
abused, just like there are lots of instances where commercial insurers deny
coverage or limit treatment options. It is often said that single payer
means you have no treatment options and your choice of providers is limited.

Not true here. In fact, no even close. I had a brush with prostate cancer
three years ago. I did the normal research we all would, picked out the
treatment I thought I wanted, and picked out the surgeon I wanted just like
you hopefully could. Went to Toronto for a consult with the Head of Urology
at Toronto General who has one of the best reps in the Province, we worked
out a treatment plan, I went to Toronto for surgery performed by him and
I've had a clean bill of health for the last couple of years. I had my
choice of practitioners, although some would require longer waits than
others, had my choice of hospitals, and had my choice of treatments. Hard to
ask for much more really.

The other reality is that single payer takes some pressure off "treatment by
next-quarter profit numbers", where the insurers have to answer to their
shareholders on a very short-term basis. Insurance companies are after all
in business to make money, and western business culture demands great
numbers month after month, quarter after quarter and year after year.

As a result, no private insurance company is in a position to take the long
view about anything. If they did their CEO would get lynched.

One of the huge benefits of single payer that often gets lost in the
rhetoric is the ability for the payer (the government) to take a much longer
view of benefits to public health.

Let me give you another personal example. I've had a serious weight problem
since I was a kid. Got to the point five years ago that I weighed 300 lbs,
and I'm only 5' 8". Tried all the diets etc, but got heavier every year.

I went looking for alternatives, and found a pretty good one with a
bariatric surgery program with the Centres for Laparoscopic Obesity Surgery
run by Dr. Rutledge and available in a number of centres in the US. Very
good reputation, lower risks than normal and terrific five year results for
taking weight off and keeping it off.

There was no equivalent program available at the time in Ontario. They are
working hard to create one now, but it takes time.

So I worked with my GP, and we submitted an application to OHIP (Ontario
Hospital Insurance Plan), the single payer for the province. Detailed what
the problem was, what the future health risks were, what the surgery was
going to cost and what we expected to gain from it.

Took a bit to get it approved, but approve it they did because of the
typical $2M plus lifetime cost of a patient with morbid obesity. Diabetes,
cardiac issues etc.

Had the surgery, lost nearly 150 lbs and I've now been stable at 155 for
coming up on four years. Pretty damn cool.

Went for the surgery in Michigan at Bay City. Caught a fairly unpleasant
case of pneumonia in the hospital, so ended up with a ten days longer than
planned stay. OHIP covered everything. No deductable at all. Came to
$42,000US which isn't chump change, but my quality of life is immeasurably
higher now.

The point is, about 70% of US patients are denied coverage from their
insurers for this procedure. Most have to dig up the $17,000 base cost out
of their hip pockets, or do without and become a huge burden later due to
very high future costs down the road. Not to mention shortened lives, lousy
quality of life and so forth.

Single payer can mean better opportunities for preventative care at all
levels, not just checkups at your GP. For one I'm very grateful, it made a
big difference to my life.

George 

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Robert West
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 9:13 PM
To: 'Tom Sharples'; 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

Exactly.  We are the one and only industrialized country (with whatever
industry we might have left) who puts "profit" in healthcare.  As you
stated, their goal is to NOT pay and they can and do come up with anything
they can find to do that.  

Profit has no place in healthcare.  Single payer is the only thing I see
working.  As far as increased taxes to pay for it, we already are paying for
it and getting zero bang for our buck.  As George from the great white north
said, healthcare shows up nowhere in his budget.  They just pay extra in
taxes.

Medicare for all.  End of the controversy.  Simple.







-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Tom Sharples
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:24 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject:

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[os10rules]

Somebody's got to pay for the R&D and to allow the pharmaceutical companies to 
make a profit so people invest so that they can afford to invent the next 
wonder drug. Right it's Americans who are paying for that. The drug companies 
could charge everyone $88.33 if we all paid the same price. But then $88.33 
would be deemed unfair for the people in the 3rd world (though somehow it's 
fair for people in the US to pay for all of the R&D and half the cost of the 
drug for people in the third world). Or we could force the drug companies to 
sell their product to everyone for $5 then they go out of business or at least 
stop inventing and instead go into the generic business and no new drugs come 
down the pike. Don't think the drug companies could spend time and money 
pursuing new drugs (not every pursuit bears fruit) and make a profit if they 
sold their drugs everywhere at $5 a dose. But what you're talking about will 
come to pass. If the companies can't make a substantial profit in the
  US market (allowing them to be philanthropic in the foreign markets) then 
drug prices will have to go up in Europe and Asia, and unfortunately many of 
the local people in those markets won't be able to afford it.

I see drug companies selling drugs at a fraction of their real cost in the 
third world as a sign of generosity and compassion, not what's wrong with the 
system.

On Dec 7, 2009, at 8:19 PM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote:

> E.g.  You can purchase Medical Drugs, Mfg. By the same American Company,
> for $10 in Canada, and the same  in the Far East for $5, but here in the US
> you would have to pay $ 250 ..




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[David E. Smith]

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 19:52, RickG  wrote:

> Dave, I like that idea. Will you pay for my health costs then?
>

That's exactly how "single payer" works. Everyone pays in a bit, nobody
worries about it. I'll pay my share if you pay yours. :)

David Smith
MVN.net



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Blake Bowers]

With no profit we would have no advancement.


Don't take your organs to heaven,
heaven knows we need them down here!
Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today.

- Original Message - 
From: "Robert West" 
To: "'Tom Sharples'" ; "'WISPA General List'" 

Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


> Exactly.  We are the one and only industrialized country (with whatever
> industry we might have left) who puts "profit" in healthcare.  As you
> stated, their goal is to NOT pay and they can and do come up with anything
> they can find to do that.
>
> Profit has no place in healthcare.  Single payer is the only thing I see
> working.  As far as increased taxes to pay for it, we already are paying 
> for
> it and getting zero bang for our buck.  As George from the great white 
> north
> said, healthcare shows up nowhere in his budget.  They just pay extra in
> taxes.
>
> Medicare for all.  End of the controversy.  Simple.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Tom Sharples
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:24 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>
> One of the basic probems IMO is that the whole idea of medical insurance, 
> as
>
> currentlky implemented, is fundamentally flawed. Consider selling ISP
> services under the model of "broadband insurance." Under that model, your
> customer would pay you a certain amount per month in case he needs
> broadband, and you would do your best to find reasons to deny him access. 
> Or
>
> how about "housing insurance" instead of monthly rent. You pay the 
> landlord
> a certain amount every month in case you need shelter and he 
> oversubscribes
> a number of his units and hires guards to keep people out on various
> pretexts. Sound completely ridiculous, yet unless you're in an HMO like
> Kaiser that's the system we have now.
>
> What we need is universal (private or public) access to medical care,
> healthy lifestyle incentives, and the elimination of stupid laws that only
> serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription drugs to US
> consumers, restrict free-market access across state and international
> lines,create incentives toward excess consumption and CYA medical 
> pratices,
> and only serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription 
> drugs
> to US consumers.
>
> Tom S.
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "RickG" 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>
>
>> Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not truly 
>> run
>> in a "free market". It's "failure" is exactly due to this. Even after all
>> the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have
>> "access"
>> to health care?
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 5:58 PM, David E. Smith  wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 16:42, MDK  wrote:
>>>
>>> > The free market really does work.   We use it daily in our business...
>>> > Now
>>>
>>> imagine if we used it for health care, too.We know how to do that,
>>> don't
>>> > we?
>>>
>>>
>>> There is a fundamental difference between broadband Internet and basic
>>> medical care, and the fact that tens of millions of Americans have 
>>> better
>>> access to the former than the latter shows that in this instance the 
>>> free
>>> market has failed miserably.
>>>
>>> David Smith
>>> MVN.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
> 
> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>>
>>>
> 
> 
>>>
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>
>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>>
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>
> 
> 
>>
>> WISPA Wirel

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Robert West]

Why not?  Just extend what is already in place with Medicare and enroll
people region by region.  While at it, lump the other government single
payer plans into it like the VA and Railroad Workers.

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 9:15 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

No, not that simple...

On 12/7/09, Robert West  wrote:
> Exactly.  We are the one and only industrialized country (with whatever
> industry we might have left) who puts "profit" in healthcare.  As you
> stated, their goal is to NOT pay and they can and do come up with anything
> they can find to do that.
>
> Profit has no place in healthcare.  Single payer is the only thing I see
> working.  As far as increased taxes to pay for it, we already are paying
for
> it and getting zero bang for our buck.  As George from the great white
north
> said, healthcare shows up nowhere in his budget.  They just pay extra in
> taxes.
>
> Medicare for all.  End of the controversy.  Simple.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Tom Sharples
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:24 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>
> One of the basic probems IMO is that the whole idea of medical insurance,
as
>
> currentlky implemented, is fundamentally flawed. Consider selling ISP
> services under the model of "broadband insurance." Under that model, your
> customer would pay you a certain amount per month in case he needs
> broadband, and you would do your best to find reasons to deny him access.
Or
>
> how about "housing insurance" instead of monthly rent. You pay the
landlord
> a certain amount every month in case you need shelter and he
oversubscribes
> a number of his units and hires guards to keep people out on various
> pretexts. Sound completely ridiculous, yet unless you're in an HMO like
> Kaiser that's the system we have now.
>
> What we need is universal (private or public) access to medical care,
> healthy lifestyle incentives, and the elimination of stupid laws that only
> serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription drugs to US
> consumers, restrict free-market access across state and international
> lines,create incentives toward excess consumption and CYA medical
pratices,
> and only serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription
drugs
> to US consumers.
>
> Tom S.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "RickG" 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>
>
>> Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not truly
run
>> in a "free market". It's "failure" is exactly due to this. Even after all
>> the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have
>> "access"
>> to health care?
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 5:58 PM, David E. Smith  wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 16:42, MDK  wrote:
>>>
>>> > The free market really does work.   We use it daily in our business...
>>> > Now
>>>
>>> imagine if we used it for health care, too.We know how to do that,
>>> don't
>>> > we?
>>>
>>>
>>> There is a fundamental difference between broadband Internet and basic
>>> medical care, and the fact that tens of millions of Americans have
better
>>> access to the former than the latter shows that in this instance the
free
>>> market has failed miserably.
>>>
>>> David Smith
>>> MVN.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>

> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>>
>>>
>

> 
>>>
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>
>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>

> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>
>

> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wi

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[David E. Smith]

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 20:15, Josh Luthman wrote:

> No, not that simple...
>

This I gotta hear. How do you justify not providing health care to any human
that needs it?

David Smith
MVN.net



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Josh Luthman]

No, not that simple...

On 12/7/09, Robert West  wrote:
> Exactly.  We are the one and only industrialized country (with whatever
> industry we might have left) who puts "profit" in healthcare.  As you
> stated, their goal is to NOT pay and they can and do come up with anything
> they can find to do that.
>
> Profit has no place in healthcare.  Single payer is the only thing I see
> working.  As far as increased taxes to pay for it, we already are paying for
> it and getting zero bang for our buck.  As George from the great white north
> said, healthcare shows up nowhere in his budget.  They just pay extra in
> taxes.
>
> Medicare for all.  End of the controversy.  Simple.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Tom Sharples
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:24 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>
> One of the basic probems IMO is that the whole idea of medical insurance, as
>
> currentlky implemented, is fundamentally flawed. Consider selling ISP
> services under the model of "broadband insurance." Under that model, your
> customer would pay you a certain amount per month in case he needs
> broadband, and you would do your best to find reasons to deny him access. Or
>
> how about "housing insurance" instead of monthly rent. You pay the landlord
> a certain amount every month in case you need shelter and he oversubscribes
> a number of his units and hires guards to keep people out on various
> pretexts. Sound completely ridiculous, yet unless you're in an HMO like
> Kaiser that's the system we have now.
>
> What we need is universal (private or public) access to medical care,
> healthy lifestyle incentives, and the elimination of stupid laws that only
> serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription drugs to US
> consumers, restrict free-market access across state and international
> lines,create incentives toward excess consumption and CYA medical pratices,
> and only serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription drugs
> to US consumers.
>
> Tom S.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "RickG" 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>
>
>> Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not truly run
>> in a "free market". It's "failure" is exactly due to this. Even after all
>> the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have
>> "access"
>> to health care?
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 5:58 PM, David E. Smith  wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 16:42, MDK  wrote:
>>>
>>> > The free market really does work.   We use it daily in our business...
>>> > Now
>>>
>>> imagine if we used it for health care, too.We know how to do that,
>>> don't
>>> > we?
>>>
>>>
>>> There is a fundamental difference between broadband Internet and basic
>>> medical care, and the fact that tens of millions of Americans have better
>>> access to the former than the latter shows that in this instance the free
>>> market has failed miserably.
>>>
>>> David Smith
>>> MVN.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
> 
> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>>
>>>
> 
> 
>>>
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>
>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>>
>>
>>
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> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.426 / Virus

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Robert West]

Exactly.  We are the one and only industrialized country (with whatever
industry we might have left) who puts "profit" in healthcare.  As you
stated, their goal is to NOT pay and they can and do come up with anything
they can find to do that.  

Profit has no place in healthcare.  Single payer is the only thing I see
working.  As far as increased taxes to pay for it, we already are paying for
it and getting zero bang for our buck.  As George from the great white north
said, healthcare shows up nowhere in his budget.  They just pay extra in
taxes.

Medicare for all.  End of the controversy.  Simple.







-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Tom Sharples
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:24 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

One of the basic probems IMO is that the whole idea of medical insurance, as

currentlky implemented, is fundamentally flawed. Consider selling ISP 
services under the model of "broadband insurance." Under that model, your 
customer would pay you a certain amount per month in case he needs 
broadband, and you would do your best to find reasons to deny him access. Or

how about "housing insurance" instead of monthly rent. You pay the landlord 
a certain amount every month in case you need shelter and he oversubscribes 
a number of his units and hires guards to keep people out on various 
pretexts. Sound completely ridiculous, yet unless you're in an HMO like 
Kaiser that's the system we have now.

What we need is universal (private or public) access to medical care, 
healthy lifestyle incentives, and the elimination of stupid laws that only 
serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription drugs to US 
consumers, restrict free-market access across state and international 
lines,create incentives toward excess consumption and CYA medical pratices, 
and only serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription drugs 
to US consumers.

Tom S.

- Original Message - 
From: "RickG" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:06 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


> Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not truly run
> in a "free market". It's "failure" is exactly due to this. Even after all
> the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have 
> "access"
> to health care?
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 5:58 PM, David E. Smith  wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 16:42, MDK  wrote:
>>
>> > The free market really does work.   We use it daily in our business...
>> > Now
>>
>> imagine if we used it for health care, too.We know how to do that,
>> don't
>> > we?
>>
>>
>> There is a fundamental difference between broadband Internet and basic
>> medical care, and the fact that tens of millions of Americans have better
>> access to the former than the latter shows that in this instance the free
>> market has failed miserably.
>>
>> David Smith
>> MVN.net
>>
>>
>>
>>


>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>
>>


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>>
>
>
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[RickG]

Dave, I like that idea. Will you pay for my health costs then?

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 7:50 PM, David E. Smith  wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 18:06, RickG  wrote:
>
> > Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not truly
> run
> > in a "free market". It's "failure" is exactly due to this. Even after all
> > the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have
> "access"
> > to health care?
> >
>
> I suppose we're taking fundamentally different approaches to the issue of
> health care. I don't see it as one that can (or should) be solved by the
> free market - as far as I'm concerned, it's a fundamental human right. No
> person, anywhere on this planet, should have to worry about things like
> "money" when it comes to basic health and wellness. The fact that even one
> American (or anyone else really, but this is a US-centric list) doesn't, in
> my mind represents a deep-rooted failure of the free market, and of basic
> human kindness and compassion.
>
> David Smith
> MVN.net
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Marlon K. Schafer]

Oh boy, here we go.

Even more important is water and food.  How about electricity, 
transportation, entertainment etc. etc. etc.

NOTHING is a basic human  right past opportunity.  The CHANCE to make our 
own direction is all that God has given us.
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "David E. Smith" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 18:06, RickG  wrote:
>
>> Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not truly 
>> run
>> in a "free market". It's "failure" is exactly due to this. Even after all
>> the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have 
>> "access"
>> to health care?
>>
>
> I suppose we're taking fundamentally different approaches to the issue of
> health care. I don't see it as one that can (or should) be solved by the
> free market - as far as I'm concerned, it's a fundamental human right. No
> person, anywhere on this planet, should have to worry about things like
> "money" when it comes to basic health and wellness. The fact that even one
> American (or anyone else really, but this is a US-centric list) doesn't, 
> in
> my mind represents a deep-rooted failure of the free market, and of basic
> human kindness and compassion.
>
> David Smith
> MVN.net
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Marlon K. Schafer]

Yeah.  Insurance should be for major catastrophe not every day snotty nose 
type issues.

marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "MDK" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 2:42 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Insurance


>
> As business people, we should be looking at insurance for health like we 
> do
> as insurance for everything else.What's it there for?   Protect us 
> from
> catastrophe, like falling through some guy's glass skylight, or accidently
> parking the bucket truck on top of his sprinker control box and it falls
> through the lid...   Or, think of any other catastrophic accident, in 
> terms
> of cost...
>
> I don't know about you, but in my family, we evaluate our spending on 
> food,
> cell phones, and other stuff on a regular basis.   We have an item that 
> goes
> to pay doctor bills.I haven't had insurance in years, but we do have a
> hundreds of dollars a month budget item.   (there's 7 in the family).
>
> Imagine if used the insurance on the work rig to pay for having the tires
> changed, oil changed,  washed,  seat tear fixed, tuneups, and even brake
> jobs.Not only would your car insurance be stupidly high,  we'd never
> care what the places charged to do the fixing, since insurance pays.   As
> business people, we use our analytical powers to fix stuff, save money, 
> etc.
>
> Apply it to health insurance.You KNOW you're going to spend money on 
> it.
> Budget for it.   But use insurance only as catastrophic relief, and find
> doctors, clinics, pharmacies that give you the best deal for cash, and 
> take
> advantage of it.Since WWII, the laws concerning taxes and wage 
> controls
> provided high incentive for employers to pay for health insurance as a
> benefit to be competitive.Now, everyone expects employer to pay the 
> bill
> and health care should be "free" or close to it.
>
> Since that means YOU consume, the insurance pays, the doctor charges...
> You can fully understand why prices spiral out of control - there is no
> market forces to control prices.
>
> Every single payer health system in the world controls costs by simply
> deciding who can and who cannot be treated.It lacks any market forces 
> to
> make anyone or anything competitive.And we've almost done that here, 
> by
> removing the consumer from the equation.
>
> Imagine what kind of revenues we could generate if the government promised
> everyone broadband... the consumer used, we provided, beaurocrats pay.
> Either prices would spiral upwards wildly, or we'd start capping customers
> and limiting use to control OUR costs.
>
> The free market really does work.   We use it daily in our business... 
> Now
> imagine if we used it for health care, too.We know how to do that, 
> don't
> we?
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Faisal Imtiaz]

Good point,

However it would be naïve to belive that the US Health Care system is a ' a
deep-rooted failure of the free market," 

I sincerely believe that the Failure in the Healt Care system is due to
"Im-proper Regulations".

E.g.  You can purchase Medical Drugs, Mfg. By the same American Company,
for $10 in Canada, and the same  in the Far East for $5, but here in the US
you would have to pay $ 250 ..

If it was a "Free Market" then by definition, the Global Economy Trade would
move to equalize this.

I don't know how much of Foreign Trade Cycles do you all Follow, in areas of
Mfg. there is an interesting trend happening.  Mfg in the East, are now
expanding their Business in the West, thus completing a Fully Owned Supply
Chain, rather than dealing with the Middlemen.

There are many places in the world, where you can get Quality Care, as a
private patient, for a Fraction of the Cost. Talk to your "Travel
Agents" about 'Medical Trips' to Europe, MiddleEast and Far East I am
not talking about some underhanded / illegal visits to get organs, but
straight forward Elective Surgeriesat First Class Facilities overseas...

Remember all those H1B Visa's and all the Temp Workers in the US, who
were re-located back to their own countries after 911.Guess what, they
were not all 'Tomato Pickers', the Educated Professional (Medical
Professionals) went back home, and setup shop (Private Clinics / Hospitals)
etc. and are now wooing Non-Emergency Medical Patients.. Enjoy a
Vacation, Have your Medical Treatement, all this for less than the cost of
your Deductable (for those with a $5k or $10k deductable).

Stuff like this is part of the "Self Correcting" Free Market System.

Convincing American Consumers that Drugs Mfg. by American Companies, Sold in
Canada and other Parts of the World are NOT SAFE, and as such we don't allow
them in the US... Is im-proper regulation.

...


Faisal Imtiaz
Computer Office Solutions Inc. /SnappyDSL.net
Ph: (305) 663-5518 x 232
-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of David E. Smith
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:51 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 18:06, RickG  wrote:

> Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not truly 
> run in a "free market". It's "failure" is exactly due to this. Even 
> after all the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not
have "access"
> to health care?
>

I suppose we're taking fundamentally different approaches to the issue of
health care. I don't see it as one that can (or should) be solved by the
free market - as far as I'm concerned, it's a fundamental human right. No
person, anywhere on this planet, should have to worry about things like
"money" when it comes to basic health and wellness. The fact that even one
American (or anyone else really, but this is a US-centric list) doesn't, in
my mind represents a deep-rooted failure of the free market, and of basic
human kindness and compassion.

David Smith
MVN.net




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[David E. Smith]

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 18:06, RickG  wrote:

> Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not truly run
> in a "free market". It's "failure" is exactly due to this. Even after all
> the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have "access"
> to health care?
>

I suppose we're taking fundamentally different approaches to the issue of
health care. I don't see it as one that can (or should) be solved by the
free market - as far as I'm concerned, it's a fundamental human right. No
person, anywhere on this planet, should have to worry about things like
"money" when it comes to basic health and wellness. The fact that even one
American (or anyone else really, but this is a US-centric list) doesn't, in
my mind represents a deep-rooted failure of the free market, and of basic
human kindness and compassion.

David Smith
MVN.net



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Tom Sharples]

One of the basic probems IMO is that the whole idea of medical insurance, as 
currentlky implemented, is fundamentally flawed. Consider selling ISP 
services under the model of "broadband insurance." Under that model, your 
customer would pay you a certain amount per month in case he needs 
broadband, and you would do your best to find reasons to deny him access. Or 
how about "housing insurance" instead of monthly rent. You pay the landlord 
a certain amount every month in case you need shelter and he oversubscribes 
a number of his units and hires guards to keep people out on various 
pretexts. Sound completely ridiculous, yet unless you're in an HMO like 
Kaiser that's the system we have now.

What we need is universal (private or public) access to medical care, 
healthy lifestyle incentives, and the elimination of stupid laws that only 
serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription drugs to US 
consumers, restrict free-market access across state and international 
lines,create incentives toward excess consumption and CYA medical pratices, 
and only serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription drugs 
to US consumers.

Tom S.

- Original Message - 
From: "RickG" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:06 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


> Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not truly run
> in a "free market". It's "failure" is exactly due to this. Even after all
> the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have 
> "access"
> to health care?
>
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 5:58 PM, David E. Smith  wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 16:42, MDK  wrote:
>>
>> > The free market really does work.   We use it daily in our business...
>> > Now
>>
>> imagine if we used it for health care, too.We know how to do that,
>> don't
>> > we?
>>
>>
>> There is a fundamental difference between broadband Internet and basic
>> medical care, and the fact that tens of millions of Americans have better
>> access to the former than the latter shows that in this instance the free
>> market has failed miserably.
>>
>> David Smith
>> MVN.net
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/






No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.97/2550 - Release Date: 12/07/09 
07:33:00




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[RickG]

Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not truly run
in a "free market". It's "failure" is exactly due to this. Even after all
the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have "access"
to health care?

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 5:58 PM, David E. Smith  wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 16:42, MDK  wrote:
>
> > The free market really does work.   We use it daily in our business...
> > Now
>
> imagine if we used it for health care, too.We know how to do that,
> don't
> > we?
>
>
> There is a fundamental difference between broadband Internet and basic
> medical care, and the fact that tens of millions of Americans have better
> access to the former than the latter shows that in this instance the free
> market has failed miserably.
>
> David Smith
> MVN.net
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Jeremy Parr]

2009/12/7 David E. Smith :
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 16:42, MDK  wrote:
>
>> The free market really does work.   We use it daily in our business...
>> Now
>
> imagine if we used it for health care, too.    We know how to do that, don't
>> we?
>
>
> There is a fundamental difference between broadband Internet and basic
> medical care, and the fact that tens of millions of Americans have better
> access to the former than the latter shows that in this instance the free
> market has failed miserably.

and the govt run muni-wifi has been such a success story



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[David E. Smith]

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 16:42, MDK  wrote:

> The free market really does work.   We use it daily in our business...
> Now

imagine if we used it for health care, too.We know how to do that, don't
> we?


There is a fundamental difference between broadband Internet and basic
medical care, and the fact that tens of millions of Americans have better
access to the former than the latter shows that in this instance the free
market has failed miserably.

David Smith
MVN.net



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Brad Belton]

Great post!   

Brad

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of MDK
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:43 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Insurance


As business people, we should be looking at insurance for health like we do 
as insurance for everything else.What's it there for?   Protect us from 
catastrophe, like falling through some guy's glass skylight, or accidently 
parking the bucket truck on top of his sprinker control box and it falls 
through the lid...   Or, think of any other catastrophic accident, in terms 
of cost...

I don't know about you, but in my family, we evaluate our spending on food, 
cell phones, and other stuff on a regular basis.   We have an item that goes

to pay doctor bills.I haven't had insurance in years, but we do have a 
hundreds of dollars a month budget item.   (there's 7 in the family).

Imagine if used the insurance on the work rig to pay for having the tires 
changed, oil changed,  washed,  seat tear fixed, tuneups, and even brake 
jobs.Not only would your car insurance be stupidly high,  we'd never 
care what the places charged to do the fixing, since insurance pays.   As 
business people, we use our analytical powers to fix stuff, save money, etc.

Apply it to health insurance.You KNOW you're going to spend money on it.

Budget for it.   But use insurance only as catastrophic relief, and find 
doctors, clinics, pharmacies that give you the best deal for cash, and take 
advantage of it.Since WWII, the laws concerning taxes and wage controls 
provided high incentive for employers to pay for health insurance as a 
benefit to be competitive.Now, everyone expects employer to pay the bill

and health care should be "free" or close to it.

Since that means YOU consume, the insurance pays, the doctor charges... 
You can fully understand why prices spiral out of control - there is no 
market forces to control prices.

Every single payer health system in the world controls costs by simply 
deciding who can and who cannot be treated.It lacks any market forces to

make anyone or anything competitive.And we've almost done that here, by 
removing the consumer from the equation.

Imagine what kind of revenues we could generate if the government promised 
everyone broadband... the consumer used, we provided, beaurocrats pay. 
Either prices would spiral upwards wildly, or we'd start capping customers 
and limiting use to control OUR costs.

The free market really does work.   We use it daily in our business...   Now

imagine if we used it for health care, too.We know how to do that, don't

we?

 





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Re: [WISPA] Insurance on equipment

[Gary Garrett]

I had insurance from Hartford once.
Had a bad couple of months and paid the premium late.
They canceled me and said they do not insure ISP's or for that matter an 
Internet anything company.
I tried again a year later and they said the same thing No Internet 
company. Many on this list have Hartford Ins. so that is just a plain 
lie, they do not want my business and don't have the hair to say so.
The point is you can pay the premiums for years and still get dumped or 
just plain refused renewal. Insurance is pretty much Government mandated 
Organized Crime.
With the modern Business world Lawyers and Insurance are a symbiotic 
relationship. You can't have one without the other.



chris cooper wrote:
> We use Hartford.  They've been great.  Decent deductible, they pay
> claims without complaint, no premium increase.
> 



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance on equipment

[chris cooper]

We use Hartford.  They've been great.  Decent deductible, they pay
claims without complaint, no premium increase.

Chris
Intelliwave


Scottie Arnett wrote:
> They provide insurance at a rate for what you want covered. You pay
less for a high deductable. In both cases, they will try everything they
can to get out of paying you, and when they finally have to pay, they
cancel the policy. So what was the use in getting the policy to begin
with?
> 





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Re: [WISPA] Insurance on equipment

[Gary Garrett]

The Burlington Northern Railroad is self Insured.
You save millions of $ on insurance premiums but you know for sure 
someday there will be a train wreck and people will die.
S0... You put the money you would have spent on insurance in the 
bank and add to it monthly just like paying for insurance. Over time you 
have a huge and growing fund that you can borrow from for expansion etc.
You have eliminated the banks interest on capital and in effect you gain 
the interest. Plus you sleep well at night knowing if something happens 
you can cover it.

The problem is you better hope the $$ grows enough before that big 
lightning storm we all know is coming..



Scottie Arnett wrote:
> They provide insurance at a rate for what you want covered. You pay less for 
> a high deductable. In both cases, they will try everything they can to get 
> out of paying you, and when they finally have to pay, they cancel the policy. 
> So what was the use in getting the policy to begin with?
> 




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance on equipment

[Scottie Arnett]

They provide insurance at a rate for what you want covered. You pay less for a 
high deductable. In both cases, they will try everything they can to get out of 
paying you, and when they finally have to pay, they cancel the policy. So what 
was the use in getting the policy to begin with?

Scott

-- Original Message --
From: "Kurt Fankhauser" 
Reply-To: WISPA General List 
Date:  Sun, 19 Apr 2009 15:14:31 -0400

>Yeah but most Wisps operators are some of the financially worst off people I
>have ever met. I agree on not making a bunch of small claims, same holds
>true with your automobile policy. I remember Mac said once that he actually
>got APC to pay out on their equipment protection guarantee and he got
>something like $15k from it and he said even he couldn't believe it.
>
>Kurt Fankhauser
>WAVELINC
>P.O. Box 126
>Bucyrus, OH 44820
>419-562-6405
>www.wavelinc.com
> 
> 
>-Original Message-
>From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>Behalf Of John Scrivner
>Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 7:23 AM
>To: WISPA General List
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance on equipment
>
>I carry a very high deductible (like $10K per incident). I keep
>insurance strictly for liability coverage and for catastrophic
>coverage like if our office burns down or a tornado comes through and
>wipes everything out. My rates are low and I do not plan to ever make
>a claim. Insurance companies are in business to make money like
>everyone else. If you use it on small claims then you eat away their
>profit and they have little choice but to consider you as a higher
>risk. Cable TV companies and power companies do not make frequent
>small claims. They take the same approach as I outline above I think.
>At a minimum you MUST have liability coverage in order to locate on
>leased space on towers, poles, etc. There is value in them covering
>you for up to a million or two in liability even if a claim is never
>made. I hope that WISPs think hard about how they interact with
>insurance companies and how we as an industry are perceived by our
>carriers. If WISPs as an industry are seen as companies who make
>frequent claims for any loss then I am guessing this will become a
>factor in how all WISPs are rated for insurance. Do yourselves a favor
>and plan NOT to make claims on insurance. Buy extra gear for your
>towers for replacements and budget a percentage of your gear as having
>to be replaced each year for upgrades, loss, etc. It is cheaper to
>self-insure your gear than to think you can have your insurance carry
>you for every little claim for lightening damage and such.
>Scriv
>
>
>On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 11:51 AM, Scottie Arnett 
>wrote:
>> Typical "legal organized crime" insurance companies. As long as you are
>paying them and not filing a claim, everything is happy go lucky. File one
>claim and they want to jack your rates through the roof or cancel your
>policy. How do they get away with this stuff? I have 1st hand experience
>with it. I can't believe all are like that, but all I have ever dealt with
>are. If anyone knows of a "professional" insurance company that provides
>what they say without the "crap mentioned above", please let me know.
>>
>> Scott
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: Josh Luthman 
>> Reply-To: WISPA General List 
>> Date:  Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:13:02 -0400
>>
>>>What I have heard from other WISPs is that once you do a big claim they
>>>cancel your policy.  I've heard it from multiple angels from multiple
>>>companies so I've always believed it to be true.
>>>
>>>Josh Luthman
>>>Office: 937-552-2340
>>>Direct: 937-552-2343
>>>1100 Wayne St
>>>Suite 1337
>>>Troy, OH 45373
>>>
>>>Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
>>>--- Henry Spencer
>>>
>>>
>>>On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 6:05 PM, Charles Wyble
>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why would one find another insurer?
>>>>
>>>> I do believe they can do a search on claims you have filed and charge
>>>> accordingly. So changing insurers most likely won't help.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Josh Luthman wrote:
>>>> > What we do and what I've been suggested is hold onto an insurance
>policy
>>>> and
>>>> > use it when you really have to.  If an AP or two and some CPEs go bad,
>>>> don't
>>>>

Re: [WISPA] Insurance on equipment

[George Rogato]

I was thinking the opposite Kurt, most of the wisps here are quite 
succcesful.

Seriously, those who cry poor mouth, are the exception.


Kurt Fankhauser wrote:
> Yeah but most Wisps operators are some of the financially worst off people I
> have ever met. I agree on not making a bunch of small claims, same holds
> true with your automobile policy. I remember Mac said once that he actually
> got APC to pay out on their equipment protection guarantee and he got
> something like $15k from it and he said even he couldn't believe it.
> 
> Kurt Fankhauser
> WAVELINC
> P.O. Box 126
> Bucyrus, OH 44820
> 419-562-6405
> www.wavelinc.com
>  
>  
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of John Scrivner
> Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 7:23 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance on equipment
> 
> I carry a very high deductible (like $10K per incident). I keep
> insurance strictly for liability coverage and for catastrophic
> coverage like if our office burns down or a tornado comes through and
> wipes everything out. My rates are low and I do not plan to ever make
> a claim. Insurance companies are in business to make money like
> everyone else. If you use it on small claims then you eat away their
> profit and they have little choice but to consider you as a higher
> risk. Cable TV companies and power companies do not make frequent
> small claims. They take the same approach as I outline above I think.
> At a minimum you MUST have liability coverage in order to locate on
> leased space on towers, poles, etc. There is value in them covering
> you for up to a million or two in liability even if a claim is never
> made. I hope that WISPs think hard about how they interact with
> insurance companies and how we as an industry are perceived by our
> carriers. If WISPs as an industry are seen as companies who make
> frequent claims for any loss then I am guessing this will become a
> factor in how all WISPs are rated for insurance. Do yourselves a favor
> and plan NOT to make claims on insurance. Buy extra gear for your
> towers for replacements and budget a percentage of your gear as having
> to be replaced each year for upgrades, loss, etc. It is cheaper to
> self-insure your gear than to think you can have your insurance carry
> you for every little claim for lightening damage and such.
> Scriv
> 
> 
> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 11:51 AM, Scottie Arnett 
> wrote:
>> Typical "legal organized crime" insurance companies. As long as you are
> paying them and not filing a claim, everything is happy go lucky. File one
> claim and they want to jack your rates through the roof or cancel your
> policy. How do they get away with this stuff? I have 1st hand experience
> with it. I can't believe all are like that, but all I have ever dealt with
> are. If anyone knows of a "professional" insurance company that provides
> what they say without the "crap mentioned above", please let me know.
>> Scott
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: Josh Luthman 
>> Reply-To: WISPA General List 
>> Date:  Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:13:02 -0400
>>
>>> What I have heard from other WISPs is that once you do a big claim they
>>> cancel your policy.  I've heard it from multiple angels from multiple
>>> companies so I've always believed it to be true.
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>
>>> Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
>>> --- Henry Spencer
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 6:05 PM, Charles Wyble
> wrote:
>>>> Why would one find another insurer?
>>>>
>>>> I do believe they can do a search on claims you have filed and charge
>>>> accordingly. So changing insurers most likely won't help.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Josh Luthman wrote:
>>>>> What we do and what I've been suggested is hold onto an insurance
> policy
>>>> and
>>>>> use it when you really have to.  If an AP or two and some CPEs go bad,
>>>> don't
>>>>> claim it as it your rates will rise or the policy may be canceled.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you lost an entire tower and hundreds of thousands of dollars (or
>>>>> whatever size completely kicks your bucket) then claim it and prepare
> to
>>>>> find another i

Re: [WISPA] Insurance on equipment

[Kurt Fankhauser]

Yeah but most Wisps operators are some of the financially worst off people I
have ever met. I agree on not making a bunch of small claims, same holds
true with your automobile policy. I remember Mac said once that he actually
got APC to pay out on their equipment protection guarantee and he got
something like $15k from it and he said even he couldn't believe it.

Kurt Fankhauser
WAVELINC
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH 44820
419-562-6405
www.wavelinc.com
 
 
-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 7:23 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance on equipment

I carry a very high deductible (like $10K per incident). I keep
insurance strictly for liability coverage and for catastrophic
coverage like if our office burns down or a tornado comes through and
wipes everything out. My rates are low and I do not plan to ever make
a claim. Insurance companies are in business to make money like
everyone else. If you use it on small claims then you eat away their
profit and they have little choice but to consider you as a higher
risk. Cable TV companies and power companies do not make frequent
small claims. They take the same approach as I outline above I think.
At a minimum you MUST have liability coverage in order to locate on
leased space on towers, poles, etc. There is value in them covering
you for up to a million or two in liability even if a claim is never
made. I hope that WISPs think hard about how they interact with
insurance companies and how we as an industry are perceived by our
carriers. If WISPs as an industry are seen as companies who make
frequent claims for any loss then I am guessing this will become a
factor in how all WISPs are rated for insurance. Do yourselves a favor
and plan NOT to make claims on insurance. Buy extra gear for your
towers for replacements and budget a percentage of your gear as having
to be replaced each year for upgrades, loss, etc. It is cheaper to
self-insure your gear than to think you can have your insurance carry
you for every little claim for lightening damage and such.
Scriv


On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 11:51 AM, Scottie Arnett 
wrote:
> Typical "legal organized crime" insurance companies. As long as you are
paying them and not filing a claim, everything is happy go lucky. File one
claim and they want to jack your rates through the roof or cancel your
policy. How do they get away with this stuff? I have 1st hand experience
with it. I can't believe all are like that, but all I have ever dealt with
are. If anyone knows of a "professional" insurance company that provides
what they say without the "crap mentioned above", please let me know.
>
> Scott
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: Josh Luthman 
> Reply-To: WISPA General List 
> Date:  Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:13:02 -0400
>
>>What I have heard from other WISPs is that once you do a big claim they
>>cancel your policy.  I've heard it from multiple angels from multiple
>>companies so I've always believed it to be true.
>>
>>Josh Luthman
>>Office: 937-552-2340
>>Direct: 937-552-2343
>>1100 Wayne St
>>Suite 1337
>>Troy, OH 45373
>>
>>Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
>>--- Henry Spencer
>>
>>
>>On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 6:05 PM, Charles Wyble
wrote:
>>
>>> Why would one find another insurer?
>>>
>>> I do believe they can do a search on claims you have filed and charge
>>> accordingly. So changing insurers most likely won't help.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman wrote:
>>> > What we do and what I've been suggested is hold onto an insurance
policy
>>> and
>>> > use it when you really have to.  If an AP or two and some CPEs go bad,
>>> don't
>>> > claim it as it your rates will rise or the policy may be canceled.
>>> >
>>> > If you lost an entire tower and hundreds of thousands of dollars (or
>>> > whatever size completely kicks your bucket) then claim it and prepare
to
>>> > find another insurer.
>>> >
>>> > Josh Luthman
>>> > Office: 937-552-2340
>>> > Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> > 1100 Wayne St
>>> > Suite 1337
>>> > Troy, OH 45373
>>> >
>>> > Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
>>> > --- Henry Spencer
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 5:33 PM, Alan Long 
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> All gear.
>>> >>
>>> >> ---

Re: [WISPA] Insurance on equipment

[Josh Luthman]

Well put, John!

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer


On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 7:22 AM, John Scrivner  wrote:

> I carry a very high deductible (like $10K per incident). I keep
> insurance strictly for liability coverage and for catastrophic
> coverage like if our office burns down or a tornado comes through and
> wipes everything out. My rates are low and I do not plan to ever make
> a claim. Insurance companies are in business to make money like
> everyone else. If you use it on small claims then you eat away their
> profit and they have little choice but to consider you as a higher
> risk. Cable TV companies and power companies do not make frequent
> small claims. They take the same approach as I outline above I think.
> At a minimum you MUST have liability coverage in order to locate on
> leased space on towers, poles, etc. There is value in them covering
> you for up to a million or two in liability even if a claim is never
> made. I hope that WISPs think hard about how they interact with
> insurance companies and how we as an industry are perceived by our
> carriers. If WISPs as an industry are seen as companies who make
> frequent claims for any loss then I am guessing this will become a
> factor in how all WISPs are rated for insurance. Do yourselves a favor
> and plan NOT to make claims on insurance. Buy extra gear for your
> towers for replacements and budget a percentage of your gear as having
> to be replaced each year for upgrades, loss, etc. It is cheaper to
> self-insure your gear than to think you can have your insurance carry
> you for every little claim for lightening damage and such.
> Scriv
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 11:51 AM, Scottie Arnett 
> wrote:
> > Typical "legal organized crime" insurance companies. As long as you are
> paying them and not filing a claim, everything is happy go lucky. File one
> claim and they want to jack your rates through the roof or cancel your
> policy. How do they get away with this stuff? I have 1st hand experience
> with it. I can't believe all are like that, but all I have ever dealt with
> are. If anyone knows of a "professional" insurance company that provides
> what they say without the "crap mentioned above", please let me know.
> >
> > Scott
> >
> > -- Original Message --
> > From: Josh Luthman 
> > Reply-To: WISPA General List 
> > Date:  Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:13:02 -0400
> >
> >>What I have heard from other WISPs is that once you do a big claim they
> >>cancel your policy.  I've heard it from multiple angels from multiple
> >>companies so I've always believed it to be true.
> >>
> >>Josh Luthman
> >>Office: 937-552-2340
> >>Direct: 937-552-2343
> >>1100 Wayne St
> >>Suite 1337
> >>Troy, OH 45373
> >>
> >>Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
> >>--- Henry Spencer
> >>
> >>
> >>On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 6:05 PM, Charles Wyble  >wrote:
> >>
> >>> Why would one find another insurer?
> >>>
> >>> I do believe they can do a search on claims you have filed and charge
> >>> accordingly. So changing insurers most likely won't help.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Josh Luthman wrote:
> >>> > What we do and what I've been suggested is hold onto an insurance
> policy
> >>> and
> >>> > use it when you really have to.  If an AP or two and some CPEs go
> bad,
> >>> don't
> >>> > claim it as it your rates will rise or the policy may be canceled.
> >>> >
> >>> > If you lost an entire tower and hundreds of thousands of dollars (or
> >>> > whatever size completely kicks your bucket) then claim it and prepare
> to
> >>> > find another insurer.
> >>> >
> >>> > Josh Luthman
> >>> > Office: 937-552-2340
> >>> > Direct: 937-552-2343
> >>> > 1100 Wayne St
> >>> > Suite 1337
> >>> > Troy, OH 45373
> >>> >
> >>> > Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
> >>> > --- Henry Spencer
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 5:33 PM, Alan Long 
> >>> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> >> All gear.
> &g

Re: [WISPA] Insurance on equipment

[John Scrivner]

I carry a very high deductible (like $10K per incident). I keep
insurance strictly for liability coverage and for catastrophic
coverage like if our office burns down or a tornado comes through and
wipes everything out. My rates are low and I do not plan to ever make
a claim. Insurance companies are in business to make money like
everyone else. If you use it on small claims then you eat away their
profit and they have little choice but to consider you as a higher
risk. Cable TV companies and power companies do not make frequent
small claims. They take the same approach as I outline above I think.
At a minimum you MUST have liability coverage in order to locate on
leased space on towers, poles, etc. There is value in them covering
you for up to a million or two in liability even if a claim is never
made. I hope that WISPs think hard about how they interact with
insurance companies and how we as an industry are perceived by our
carriers. If WISPs as an industry are seen as companies who make
frequent claims for any loss then I am guessing this will become a
factor in how all WISPs are rated for insurance. Do yourselves a favor
and plan NOT to make claims on insurance. Buy extra gear for your
towers for replacements and budget a percentage of your gear as having
to be replaced each year for upgrades, loss, etc. It is cheaper to
self-insure your gear than to think you can have your insurance carry
you for every little claim for lightening damage and such.
Scriv


On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 11:51 AM, Scottie Arnett  wrote:
> Typical "legal organized crime" insurance companies. As long as you are 
> paying them and not filing a claim, everything is happy go lucky. File one 
> claim and they want to jack your rates through the roof or cancel your 
> policy. How do they get away with this stuff? I have 1st hand experience with 
> it. I can't believe all are like that, but all I have ever dealt with are. If 
> anyone knows of a "professional" insurance company that provides what they 
> say without the "crap mentioned above", please let me know.
>
> Scott
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: Josh Luthman 
> Reply-To: WISPA General List 
> Date:  Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:13:02 -0400
>
>>What I have heard from other WISPs is that once you do a big claim they
>>cancel your policy.  I've heard it from multiple angels from multiple
>>companies so I've always believed it to be true.
>>
>>Josh Luthman
>>Office: 937-552-2340
>>Direct: 937-552-2343
>>1100 Wayne St
>>Suite 1337
>>Troy, OH 45373
>>
>>Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
>>--- Henry Spencer
>>
>>
>>On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 6:05 PM, Charles Wyble wrote:
>>
>>> Why would one find another insurer?
>>>
>>> I do believe they can do a search on claims you have filed and charge
>>> accordingly. So changing insurers most likely won't help.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman wrote:
>>> > What we do and what I've been suggested is hold onto an insurance policy
>>> and
>>> > use it when you really have to.  If an AP or two and some CPEs go bad,
>>> don't
>>> > claim it as it your rates will rise or the policy may be canceled.
>>> >
>>> > If you lost an entire tower and hundreds of thousands of dollars (or
>>> > whatever size completely kicks your bucket) then claim it and prepare to
>>> > find another insurer.
>>> >
>>> > Josh Luthman
>>> > Office: 937-552-2340
>>> > Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> > 1100 Wayne St
>>> > Suite 1337
>>> > Troy, OH 45373
>>> >
>>> > Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
>>> > --- Henry Spencer
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 5:33 PM, Alan Long 
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> All gear.
>>> >>
>>> >> 
>>> >> Aerowire
>>> >> Alan Long
>>> >> Director of Network Operations
>>> >> alan.l...@aerowire.net
>>> >> 687 North Dean Road
>>> >> Auburn, AL 36830
>>> >> tel: 3342759998
>>> >> mobile: 336092
>>> >> 
>>> >> -Original Message-
>>> >> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>>> >> Behalf Of Charles Wyble
>>> >> Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2

Re: [WISPA] Insurance on equipment

[Scottie Arnett]

Typical "legal organized crime" insurance companies. As long as you are paying 
them and not filing a claim, everything is happy go lucky. File one claim and 
they want to jack your rates through the roof or cancel your policy. How do 
they get away with this stuff? I have 1st hand experience with it. I can't 
believe all are like that, but all I have ever dealt with are. If anyone knows 
of a "professional" insurance company that provides what they say without the 
"crap mentioned above", please let me know.

Scott

-- Original Message --
From: Josh Luthman 
Reply-To: WISPA General List 
Date:  Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:13:02 -0400

>What I have heard from other WISPs is that once you do a big claim they
>cancel your policy.  I've heard it from multiple angels from multiple
>companies so I've always believed it to be true.
>
>Josh Luthman
>Office: 937-552-2340
>Direct: 937-552-2343
>1100 Wayne St
>Suite 1337
>Troy, OH 45373
>
>Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
>--- Henry Spencer
>
>
>On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 6:05 PM, Charles Wyble wrote:
>
>> Why would one find another insurer?
>>
>> I do believe they can do a search on claims you have filed and charge
>> accordingly. So changing insurers most likely won't help.
>>
>>
>>
>> Josh Luthman wrote:
>> > What we do and what I've been suggested is hold onto an insurance policy
>> and
>> > use it when you really have to.  If an AP or two and some CPEs go bad,
>> don't
>> > claim it as it your rates will rise or the policy may be canceled.
>> >
>> > If you lost an entire tower and hundreds of thousands of dollars (or
>> > whatever size completely kicks your bucket) then claim it and prepare to
>> > find another insurer.
>> >
>> > Josh Luthman
>> > Office: 937-552-2340
>> > Direct: 937-552-2343
>> > 1100 Wayne St
>> > Suite 1337
>> > Troy, OH 45373
>> >
>> > Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
>> > --- Henry Spencer
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 5:33 PM, Alan Long 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> All gear.
>> >>
>> >> 
>> >> Aerowire
>> >> Alan Long
>> >> Director of Network Operations
>> >> alan.l...@aerowire.net
>> >> 687 North Dean Road
>> >> Auburn, AL 36830
>> >> tel: 3342759998
>> >> mobile: 336092
>> >> 
>> >> -Original Message-
>> >> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>> >> Behalf Of Charles Wyble
>> >> Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 4:30 PM
>> >> To: WISPA General List
>> >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance on equipment
>> >>
>> >> I'm guessing you mean AP gear and not CPE? Or do you mean CPE as well?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Alan Long wrote:
>> >>> Anyone have information/experience with insuring your equipment against
>> >>> damage. My main concern is weather related damage.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> 
>> >> 
>> >> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> >> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> >>
>> >>
>> 
>> >> 
>> >>
>> >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>> >>
>> >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>> >>
>> >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>> >>
>> >> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> >> Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.58/2062 - Release Date:
>> 04/16/09
>> >> 08:12:00
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> 
>> >> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> >> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> >>
>> &g

Re: [WISPA] Insurance on equipment

[eje]

You guys do know that an insurance company is not allow to cancel or increase 
your premium for doing a claim with them. HOWEVER if it comes to light your 
doing things not disclosed to them when you got the premium or your business 
model have changed they can reevaluate your insurance and make adjustments or 
even cancel it. Read over your policies carefully before signing it and before 
submitting a claim. We had a carpenter that had to use his insurance for some 
water damage and his insurance agent tried to BS him and we called him up told 
him basically that he was a fraud and he better not even consider doing 
anything because that would violate the regulations. Yet today the carpenter 
still got insurance and paying same premium and he had to do a second claim 
about on it. 

/Eje
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-Original Message-
From: "Chris T." 

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:59:58 
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance on equipment


We had a $30K claim last year with The Hartford after a lightening strike.
It took a few extra weeks to get the money, but we did get it. And, they did
not cancel our policy. I wonder what other's have had to claim, and how much
money would define "big."


Crispin Tresp
WiSpring, Inc.
A Wireless Broadband Company
610 Main Street, Suite 2
Great Barrington, MA 01230


On 4/16/09 6:13 PM, "Josh Luthman"  wrote:

> What I have heard from other WISPs is that once you do a big claim they
> cancel your policy.  I've heard it from multiple angels from multiple
> companies so I've always believed it to be true.
> 
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
> 
> Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
> --- Henry Spencer
> 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 6:05 PM, Charles Wyble wrote:
> 
>> Why would one find another insurer?
>> 
>> I do believe they can do a search on claims you have filed and charge
>> accordingly. So changing insurers most likely won't help.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Josh Luthman wrote:
>>> What we do and what I've been suggested is hold onto an insurance policy
>> and
>>> use it when you really have to.  If an AP or two and some CPEs go bad,
>> don't
>>> claim it as it your rates will rise or the policy may be canceled.
>>> 
>>> If you lost an entire tower and hundreds of thousands of dollars (or
>>> whatever size completely kicks your bucket) then claim it and prepare to
>>> find another insurer.
>>> 
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>> 
>>> Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
>>> --- Henry Spencer
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 5:33 PM, Alan Long 
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> All gear.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Aerowire
>>>> Alan Long
>>>> Director of Network Operations
>>>> alan.l...@aerowire.net
>>>> 687 North Dean Road
>>>> Auburn, AL 36830
>>>> tel: 3342759998
>>>> mobile: 336092
>>>> 
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Charles Wyble
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 4:30 PM
>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance on equipment
>>>> 
>>>> I'm guessing you mean AP gear and not CPE? Or do you mean CPE as well?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Alan Long wrote:
>>>>> Anyone have information/experience with insuring your equipment against
>>>>> damage. My main concern is weather related damage.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 
>>>> 
>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>> 
>>>> Subscribe

Re: [WISPA] Insurance on equipment

[Josh Luthman]

Depends how much you pay every month I guess.

On 4/16/09, Chris T.  wrote:
> We had a $30K claim last year with The Hartford after a lightening strike.
> It took a few extra weeks to get the money, but we did get it. And, they did
> not cancel our policy. I wonder what other's have had to claim, and how much
> money would define "big."
>
> 
> Crispin Tresp
> WiSpring, Inc.
> A Wireless Broadband Company
> 610 Main Street, Suite 2
> Great Barrington, MA 01230
>
>
> On 4/16/09 6:13 PM, "Josh Luthman"  wrote:
>
>> What I have heard from other WISPs is that once you do a big claim they
>> cancel your policy.  I've heard it from multiple angels from multiple
>> companies so I've always believed it to be true.
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>> Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
>> --- Henry Spencer
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 6:05 PM, Charles Wyble
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Why would one find another insurer?
>>>
>>> I do believe they can do a search on claims you have filed and charge
>>> accordingly. So changing insurers most likely won't help.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman wrote:
>>>> What we do and what I've been suggested is hold onto an insurance policy
>>> and
>>>> use it when you really have to.  If an AP or two and some CPEs go bad,
>>> don't
>>>> claim it as it your rates will rise or the policy may be canceled.
>>>>
>>>> If you lost an entire tower and hundreds of thousands of dollars (or
>>>> whatever size completely kicks your bucket) then claim it and prepare to
>>>> find another insurer.
>>>>
>>>> Josh Luthman
>>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>>> Suite 1337
>>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>>
>>>> Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
>>>> --- Henry Spencer
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 5:33 PM, Alan Long 
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> All gear.
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> Aerowire
>>>>> Alan Long
>>>>> Director of Network Operations
>>>>> alan.l...@aerowire.net
>>>>> 687 North Dean Road
>>>>> Auburn, AL 36830
>>>>> tel: 3342759998
>>>>> mobile: 336092
>>>>> 
>>>>> -Original Message-
>>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Charles Wyble
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 4:30 PM
>>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance on equipment
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm guessing you mean AP gear and not CPE? Or do you mean CPE as well?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Alan Long wrote:
>>>>>> Anyone have information/experience with insuring your equipment
>>>>>> against
>>>>>> damage. My main concern is weather related damage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>>>
>>>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>>>>
>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>> Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.58/2062 - Release Date:
>>> 04/16/09
&

Re: [WISPA] Insurance on equipment

[Chris T.]

We had a $30K claim last year with The Hartford after a lightening strike.
It took a few extra weeks to get the money, but we did get it. And, they did
not cancel our policy. I wonder what other's have had to claim, and how much
money would define "big."


Crispin Tresp
WiSpring, Inc.
A Wireless Broadband Company
610 Main Street, Suite 2
Great Barrington, MA 01230


On 4/16/09 6:13 PM, "Josh Luthman"  wrote:

> What I have heard from other WISPs is that once you do a big claim they
> cancel your policy.  I've heard it from multiple angels from multiple
> companies so I've always believed it to be true.
> 
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
> 
> Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
> --- Henry Spencer
> 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 6:05 PM, Charles Wyble wrote:
> 
>> Why would one find another insurer?
>> 
>> I do believe they can do a search on claims you have filed and charge
>> accordingly. So changing insurers most likely won't help.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Josh Luthman wrote:
>>> What we do and what I've been suggested is hold onto an insurance policy
>> and
>>> use it when you really have to.  If an AP or two and some CPEs go bad,
>> don't
>>> claim it as it your rates will rise or the policy may be canceled.
>>> 
>>> If you lost an entire tower and hundreds of thousands of dollars (or
>>> whatever size completely kicks your bucket) then claim it and prepare to
>>> find another insurer.
>>> 
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>> 
>>> Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
>>> --- Henry Spencer
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 5:33 PM, Alan Long 
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> All gear.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Aerowire
>>>> Alan Long
>>>> Director of Network Operations
>>>> alan.l...@aerowire.net
>>>> 687 North Dean Road
>>>> Auburn, AL 36830
>>>> tel: 3342759998
>>>> mobile: 336092
>>>> 
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Charles Wyble
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 4:30 PM
>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance on equipment
>>>> 
>>>> I'm guessing you mean AP gear and not CPE? Or do you mean CPE as well?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Alan Long wrote:
>>>>> Anyone have information/experience with insuring your equipment against
>>>>> damage. My main concern is weather related damage.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 
>>>> 
>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>> 
>>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>> 
>>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>>> 
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>> Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.58/2062 - Release Date:
>> 04/16/09
>>>> 08:12:00
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> -
>> ---
>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> -
>> ---
>>>> 
>>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wis

Re: [WISPA] Insurance on equipment

[Josh Luthman]

What I have heard from other WISPs is that once you do a big claim they
cancel your policy.  I've heard it from multiple angels from multiple
companies so I've always believed it to be true.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer


On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 6:05 PM, Charles Wyble wrote:

> Why would one find another insurer?
>
> I do believe they can do a search on claims you have filed and charge
> accordingly. So changing insurers most likely won't help.
>
>
>
> Josh Luthman wrote:
> > What we do and what I've been suggested is hold onto an insurance policy
> and
> > use it when you really have to.  If an AP or two and some CPEs go bad,
> don't
> > claim it as it your rates will rise or the policy may be canceled.
> >
> > If you lost an entire tower and hundreds of thousands of dollars (or
> > whatever size completely kicks your bucket) then claim it and prepare to
> > find another insurer.
> >
> > Josh Luthman
> > Office: 937-552-2340
> > Direct: 937-552-2343
> > 1100 Wayne St
> > Suite 1337
> > Troy, OH 45373
> >
> > Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
> > --- Henry Spencer
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 5:33 PM, Alan Long 
> wrote:
> >
> >> All gear.
> >>
> >> 
> >> Aerowire
> >> Alan Long
> >> Director of Network Operations
> >> alan.l...@aerowire.net
> >> 687 North Dean Road
> >> Auburn, AL 36830
> >> tel: 3342759998
> >> mobile: 3344446092
> >> 
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> >> Behalf Of Charles Wyble
> >> Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 4:30 PM
> >> To: WISPA General List
> >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance on equipment
> >>
> >> I'm guessing you mean AP gear and not CPE? Or do you mean CPE as well?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Alan Long wrote:
> >>> Anyone have information/experience with insuring your equipment against
> >>> damage. My main concern is weather related damage.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> 
> >> 
> >> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> >> http://signup.wispa.org/
> >>
> >>
> 
> >> 
> >>
> >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >>
> >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >>
> >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >>
> >> No virus found in this incoming message.
> >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> >> Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.58/2062 - Release Date:
> 04/16/09
> >> 08:12:00
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> 
> >> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> >> http://signup.wispa.org/
> >>
> >>
> 
> >>
> >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >>
> >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >>
> >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> 
> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > http://signup.wispa.org/
> >
> 
> >
> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance on equipment

[Charles Wyble]

Why would one find another insurer?

I do believe they can do a search on claims you have filed and charge 
accordingly. So changing insurers most likely won't help.



Josh Luthman wrote:
> What we do and what I've been suggested is hold onto an insurance policy and
> use it when you really have to.  If an AP or two and some CPEs go bad, don't
> claim it as it your rates will rise or the policy may be canceled.
> 
> If you lost an entire tower and hundreds of thousands of dollars (or
> whatever size completely kicks your bucket) then claim it and prepare to
> find another insurer.
> 
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
> 
> Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
> --- Henry Spencer
> 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 5:33 PM, Alan Long  wrote:
> 
>> All gear.
>>
>> 
>> Aerowire
>> Alan Long
>> Director of Network Operations
>> alan.l...@aerowire.net
>> 687 North Dean Road
>> Auburn, AL 36830
>> tel: 3342759998
>> mobile: 336092
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>> Behalf Of Charles Wyble
>> Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 4:30 PM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance on equipment
>>
>> I'm guessing you mean AP gear and not CPE? Or do you mean CPE as well?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Alan Long wrote:
>>> Anyone have information/experience with insuring your equipment against
>>> damage. My main concern is weather related damage.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>
>> 
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.58/2062 - Release Date: 04/16/09
>> 08:12:00
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
> 
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> 
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> 
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> 



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance on equipment

[Josh Luthman]

What we do and what I've been suggested is hold onto an insurance policy and
use it when you really have to.  If an AP or two and some CPEs go bad, don't
claim it as it your rates will rise or the policy may be canceled.

If you lost an entire tower and hundreds of thousands of dollars (or
whatever size completely kicks your bucket) then claim it and prepare to
find another insurer.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer


On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 5:33 PM, Alan Long  wrote:

> All gear.
>
> 
> Aerowire
> Alan Long
> Director of Network Operations
> alan.l...@aerowire.net
> 687 North Dean Road
> Auburn, AL 36830
> tel: 3342759998
> mobile: 336092
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Charles Wyble
> Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 4:30 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance on equipment
>
> I'm guessing you mean AP gear and not CPE? Or do you mean CPE as well?
>
>
>
>
> Alan Long wrote:
> > Anyone have information/experience with insuring your equipment against
> > damage. My main concern is weather related damage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.58/2062 - Release Date: 04/16/09
> 08:12:00
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance on equipment

[Alan Long]

All gear.


Aerowire
Alan Long
Director of Network Operations
alan.l...@aerowire.net
687 North Dean Road
Auburn, AL 36830
tel: 3342759998
mobile: 336092

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Charles Wyble
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 4:30 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance on equipment

I'm guessing you mean AP gear and not CPE? Or do you mean CPE as well?




Alan Long wrote:
> Anyone have information/experience with insuring your equipment against
> damage. My main concern is weather related damage.
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.58/2062 - Release Date: 04/16/09
08:12:00




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance on equipment

[Charles Wyble]

I'm guessing you mean AP gear and not CPE? Or do you mean CPE as well?




Alan Long wrote:
> Anyone have information/experience with insuring your equipment against
> damage. My main concern is weather related damage.
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance

[Tim Wolfe]

Find a broker that deals with CNA. They are still in the ISP business. 
Use 2 separate classifications. One is being an ISP and the second is 
satellite installer. Most insurance CO's  have no clue what a WISP is to 
this day and will run for the hills when you describe your business. 
They all know what an ISP is and have also been offering policies for 
sat. installers for years. Since all you are doing on an install is 
mounting an antenna and radio, it is no different than mounting a Sat. 
dish so coverage is not an issue. Make sure you break out all $$ that 
are charged for the installs and keep them separate in your books, as in 
most states, you will be billed for that classification based on gross 
revenue . It should keep your costs down Good luck.


D. Ryan Spott wrote:
> Thanks board members. I feel that this sort of service set will help  
> WISPA members quite a bit.
>
> ryan
>
>
> D. Ryan Spott
> rsp...@cspott.com
>
>
>
>   




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance

[Marlon K. Schafer]

We're with Basin Insurance out of Moses Lake.

I believe he was working on a program to allow him to sell into any state. 
Don't know if he got that done or not.

Seems to me that we're underwritten by Safeco.

Gary (my agent) has spent a lot of time learning my business to insure that 
we're properly covered.

laters,
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "Forbes Mercy" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


>I was told by United that they were no longer taking new clients and
> considering dropping the ISP package side, that's it.  I'll hold out a
> little longer to see what Rick comes up with.
>
> Forbes
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Chadd Thompson
> Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:15 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>
> I have not heard anything from Chubb indicating this. Are they not
> taking
> new customers or getting rid of existing ones also?
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
> Behalf Of Forbes Mercy
> Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 3:43 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
>
>
> I was informed the Chubb is getting out of the ISP business so that
> pretty much leaves Hartford so I'm trying to get on with them.  I used
> Sue Larson at United but she must be busy because her responses are
> usually a week apart and only after I ask her if she has any more
> questions.
>
> Forbes
>
>
>
> 
> 
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> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.10.25/1956 - Release Date:
> 02/16/09 18:31:00
>
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance

[Forbes Mercy]

I was told by United that they were no longer taking new clients and
considering dropping the ISP package side, that's it.  I'll hold out a
little longer to see what Rick comes up with.

Forbes

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Chadd Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:15 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

I have not heard anything from Chubb indicating this. Are they not
taking
new customers or getting rid of existing ones also?

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
Behalf Of Forbes Mercy
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 3:43 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


I was informed the Chubb is getting out of the ISP business so that
pretty much leaves Hartford so I'm trying to get on with them.  I used
Sue Larson at United but she must be busy because her responses are
usually a week apart and only after I ask her if she has any more
questions.

Forbes





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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.10.25/1956 - Release Date:
02/16/09 18:31:00



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