Re: [WSG] css/html snippets
Pete, Joshua wrote >> http://webpatterns.org/ *checks it out* ok, so the term "patterns" is potentially a too far advanced term for what i'm thinking of. all that microformat and machine readable data stuff is certainly interesting (Allsopp - i can hear you screaming about it from here ;-) but... I *think* what i'm talking about it different. i'm just thinking more along the lines of a library of cut'n'paste chunks of re-usable code.. maybe i'm trying to jump to the result of what the "web-patternists" are aiming to investigate. Probably the biggest problem with web patterns is the term "patttern". Most of us think about persian carpets or something when we here the term. But it has a precise technical meaning in this context, so I decided to go with it, despite the potential for confusion. Originally, when I was first thinking about this whole issue (years ago now), I was thinking in terms of "templates". Reusable chunks, much like you outlined in your earlier email. This is something which Doug Bowman and I chatted about a lot in the aftermath of WE04, and more recently Russ and I spoke more about, which took me more in the direction of patterns over templates. The drawback with shared templates is while these are immediately useful, they are also trivial. In the sense that they can be unthinkingly used, and by using them, no one gets anything other than the short term benefit of a shortcut to a quicker page. Btu in real world situations, while little reusable chunks are very useful, the whole idea does not scale up well. One you reach even major page fragments, they tend to become limiting, so people would bend them to suit their needs, and all of a sudden you don't actually get the benefits of reusable chunks anymore. How do patterns differ? Well, a pattern (such as "login box") certainly should include an example implementation, even a "canonical" one, but more importantly, would also outline the typical use cases for the pattern other patterns which work well with this pattern patterns which this pattern plays a part in when NOT to use the pattern (simple example, radio buttons and checkboxes are often used interchangeably - but they are separate patterns, radio buttons should not be used when you want to choose more than one option out of three) Semantics - the pieces of the pattern all have usable semantic names - in the login example, the whole chunk itself would have a name, then each of the individual pieces may have names - so you get common semantics for "free" - that way you can all of a sudden reuse CSS as well as HTML. Cool eh? So along with resuable code, you a whole wealth of knowledge which has ben acquired by developers over time (an important thing about patterns is that they aren't novel inventions, rather, they capture and formalize well established current practice - they "pave the cowpaths") Hope this helps make more sense of the aim of web patterns - at http://webpatterns.org and with the patternquiz there, I started in a top down way - but the bottom up way would work well too. I invite anyone vaguely interested to visit webpatterns.org, and ion particular share their thoughts via the patternQuiz (there are two parts now) http://webpatterns.org/wordpress/?cat=3 thanks john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference :: http://we05.com WebPatterns :: http://webpatterns.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz
Richard, I think you're right on both counts... Yes, in order for this to be effective the more professionals who contribute, the better it will be. And yes, absolutely, it's not about stating "this is the ONLY way you can do this" but presenting a set of choices. I look forward to seeing the next stage ;o) it's begun already! Get along to http://webpatterns.org/wordpress/?p=4 and start adding some patterns :-)! everyone is welcome, and its easy john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference :: http://we05.com WebPatterns :: http://webpatterns.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz
Kat, Keep in mind I am just a student, of course then we'll discount everything you have to say by 40% :-) but isn't something that describes it at site level more a framework rather than a pattern? I'd say that the difference between a framework and a pattern is that a framework is a fully worked, reusable solution to a problem (or at least the foundations of one). As you'll know, but perhaps some of the readers of the list might not, the term is commonly used in object oriented programming to refer to a class library that can be used to build applications. Rails (of Ruby on Rails) is a framework for working with Ruby (a programming language). If we were to use the term "framework", we'd be overloading the term in ways that are very confusing. From Wikipedia "A design pattern isn't a finished design that can be transformed directly into code <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Code_%28computer_programming%29>; it is a description or template for how to solve a problem that can be used in many different situations. ". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_pattern_%28computer_science%29 Isn't a pattern usually a description of how to solve generic complex issues, such as dynamic binding? In the context of OOAD, yes. But suppose your problem is to have a frequently updated set of discrete messages, which users can subscribe to, to inform them of changes to the status of their account. It seems that while this is quite different from kottke.org, it fits the pattern of a blog. We coould legitimately call this "a description or template for how to solve a problem that can be used in many different situations". BTW, I think the term template here is very tricky, overloading the concept of reusable code chunks, like DreamWeaver (or Style Master) templates. I recommend avoiding it like the plague in the discussion of patterns to avoid people understanding patterns in the same, very limited, sense. But an academic course page can't be used in a e-commerce store. It's quite specific for a particular area. So you have two patterns. But both of them might fall within a class of patterns, which in this case I call "site patterns" (that's because any pattern within the set shares some common aspects). There are other classes of pattern, and importantly types of patttern - architectural, navigation strategy, data and more. Again from Wikipedia, "a Framework can be considered as the processes and technologies used to solve a complex issue. It is the skeleton upon which various objects are integrated for a given solution." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framework http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Software+framework The problem is that this leaves out the aspect of frameworks that these processes and technologies are implemented in a programming language, typically as class libraries, top form the basis of new applications So the description for the academic course page is more skeleton like which allowed integration with other various objects, and thus more framelike? Point out to me where I have gone wrong. If you get the chance, follow up some of the articles in my original post about patterns. I feel that after some not inconsiderable time thinking about this problem domain, the pattern paradigm is appropriate, and could potentially be very important as web development matures into a fully fledged discipline. Thanks for the excellent thought provoking post. Straight to the top of the class :-) john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz
Kevin, dosnt ted drakes standardista rollyo search thingy sorta do this? I'd suggest rollyo is a great example of a framework, which of course uses existing search, page and page content patterns. john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz
Richard, I don't know, Sam... I mean, we're not forcing someone to use these patterns. But let's face it, they're patterns because lots of people use them. exactly. These patterns exist already. Its not about saying "you should do these things in this way" rather "over time, when solving this kind of problem, the following conventions have emerged" For example: previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 next look familiar? Google and almost every multi-page set of results uses this. I'd call it a convention. We're using the word 'pattern'. very nice example - there are actually two patterns here - a "navigation strategy" (how to allow users to conceive of and move around a set of information) and apage architecture pattern, how to present that strategy to the users. There might even be an interaction pattern lurking in there too if you look closely enough. What's the best way to mark this up? Well, I'd hazard a quess that this was an ordered list. But then there's those two at the beginning and end How are they best semantically marked up? And what CSS is best used to effectively display them? at this point, we get into suggested solutions. There is often going to be more than one common solution, (note again this is about capturing current practice, rather than dictating the "one true way"). The pattern captures these solutions, and discusses the pros and cons of using them. The developer still needs to make a choice in the context of their project, and then implement the pattern. What I'm saying is that instead of: a. trying to figure it out for yourself (which at the VERY best is time consuming), or b. Cut'n'pasting someone else's dodgey table-based code ... you could go to this site and, knowing that this is the Best Practice method, use that bit of code. I'd just pluralize Best Practices, and I think you've got agreat example here Hang on! Oh yeah, the standards community has already started doing something like this with hCard via MicroFormats, right? Thing is, I think the idea could be applied to more patterns. Yes, microformats are certainly patterns - what I term (for now) data patterns, by and large. WebPatterns are more general than µf, in part because the µf crew have specifically decided to focus on one aspect of patterns, at least for now. You never know, it might end continually re-occurring debates on mailing lists (like those I mentioned in my first post). or at least move them to a wiki :-) Thanks for the great ideas j John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz
Samuel, I think you'll find their are too many variables in a website to do this easily. Plus you'll never convince designers to stick to those set layouts :D of course, it's not all or nothing. The more people who help build this body of knowledge, the better it will be, and the more people who use it, the better web solutions in general will be Also, it really isn't about "layouts" - much more about page architecture and data models than presentation. The outline language I'll post soon makes this much clearer (also, the word "patterns" is somewhat misleading, because we initially think of visual design) thanks john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference :: http://we05.com WebPatterns :: http://webpatterns.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz
Paul, Love the idea. thanks I don't think it should be a replacement for many things which are best learnt through hard expereince, but rather a 7 steps to success guide for building a standards-based website. things should not be hard simply for the sake of it. We need to distinguish the set of skills and knowledge that professional developers really need as a foundation to the discipline of web development from stuff that just happens to be hard because we haven't worked it out yet. Sure, you could include best practice code samples, particularly for off-page techniques etc. But I don't think providing baby steps for every eventuality is the answer. That, in itself, has the potential for creating lazy beginners. Its not so much a matter of baby steps as a detailed understanding of the problems we find ourselves solving over and over again, coupled with suggested solutions. In order to use this effectively, developers will still need to have a great deal of understanding of what they are doing in technical and architectural domains. The fact that patterns are widely used in computer science and originated in Architecture suggests that they certainly don't make solving complex problems trivial, rather they help make the process more efficient, and hopefully give rise to better solutions in future Thanks again, john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz
Richard, Actually, it would be great if we could have something like this which would form a 'toolkit' of sorts where we can take 'developer- authorised' code snippets and put them in our pages. Such as finally having a collection of code so we don't have to ask: "What's the most semantic and valid way of marking up addresses?" and such. that's certainly one of the aims of the project - but it is important to distinguish patterns from templates - a template is a one size fits all, "use this bit of code to solve this problem" approach that is often too inflexible to provide real world solutions. But, a standardised reusable semantics would be a great benefit to all which could come from this. I discuss this in my original article http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/2005/11/webpatterns_and.html This would save a lot of time, especially for CSS learners / new-to- standards folk. Semantically marked up Photo Gallery? Go to the Photo Gallery section and choose from sevral layouts, all given the thumbs up by CSS Samurais and such out there. Best way to do breadcrumbs (once and for all)? Sure check out the Navigation section. It would be very useful if it really captured the problem, and suggested solutions to aspects, along with a discussion of those solutions. Yes, people probably just want the code to paste in, and there would be examples which they could use in that way, but for more complex problems, as I have mentioned earlier, itss just not flexible enough, thanks for the thoughts, john etc... What do you think? R - Original Message - From: "John Allsopp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 2:34 PM Subject: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz Hi all, Some of you might have read my recent article, WebPatterns and WebSemantics http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/2005/11/webpatterns_and.html In a nutshell, a pattern is a "a problem which occurs over and over again … and … the core of the solution to that problem". When we build sites, unconsciously we use patterns all the time - it's just very little work has been done trying to capture and document them. That's what I've started http://webpatterns.org to do. The first big step here is the "PatternQuiz" http://webpatterns.org/wordpress/?p=4 the aim of which is to explore existing patterns in web development. I've started with site level patterns. I'm really interested in the thoughts of all developers about the patterns which we use, so if you have a moment please come along, and contribute your thoughts and experience john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz
Richard, Martijn van Welie's been hacking away at something like this for a bit - check it out :o) http://www.welie.com/patterns/index.html indeed he has. I devote some space in the original webpatterns article to discussing the strengths and weaknesses of what Martijn has done. There are three shortcomings I see 1. its not collaborative and I feel the domain is too big, with too many specialties for one person to be able to develop a pattern language in this way 2. There is no real organizing principle - essentially it's a catalogue not a "language". I'll be posting my outline for the structure of the webpattern language soon - its structured and hierarchical 3. It's not generative - it doesn't capture the interrelationships between patterns (complex patterns like sites are made up of others like pages, which in turn are made up page sub parts and so on). I do detail this in the original article, http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/2005/11/webpatterns_and.html thanks john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference :: http://we05.com WebPatterns :: http://webpatterns.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz
Hi all, Some of you might have read my recent article, WebPatterns and WebSemantics http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/2005/11/webpatterns_and.html In a nutshell, a pattern is a "a problem which occurs over and over again … and … the core of the solution to that problem". When we build sites, unconsciously we use patterns all the time - it's just very little work has been done trying to capture and document them. That's what I've started http://webpatterns.org to do. The first big step here is the "PatternQuiz" http://webpatterns.org/wordpress/?p=4 the aim of which is to explore existing patterns in web development. I've started with site level patterns. I'm really interested in the thoughts of all developers about the patterns which we use, so if you have a moment please come along, and contribute your thoughts and experience john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] Webpatterns and WebSemantics
Hi all, I've just published this http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/2005/11/webpatterns_and.html There has been some discussion recently about what makes something a profession (or a discipline), in the context of our industry/ profession/discipline http://www.molly.com/2005/11/14/web-standards-and-the-new- professionalism/ In the article I quote Brad Appleton, who makes the observation that "Fundamental to any science or engineering discipline is a common vocabulary for expressing its concepts, and a language for relating them together" WebPatterns is a project to help collaboratively develop this common vocabulary for expressing its concepts, and a language for relating them together, in short a pattern language for the web. I've also setup http://webpatterns.org, to help foster and develop the idea and the conversation. It's a little like microformats.org, but with a focus more on site architecture than just data. Very interested in people's thoughts, thanks for your time, john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] The Age (and smh) redesign
Hi, last week http;//theage.com.au launched a redesign, and early next week, it appears http://smh.com.au will also get a fairly similar makeover. I thought I might run my recent survey methodology over it, to see how the old and new designs compare. Its just been published as an article http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] Current practices in Australian web development
Hi all, Those of you who came to WE05 or who listened to the podCasts might have seen/heard my presentation on a recent survey I did on how well major Australian sites are adhering to best practices in web development (valid HTML/XHTML, CSS, Semantic and Structural use of HTML, Accessibility). I've just published the whole thing as an article, with all the results (what errors people are making, results for each site surveyed, results by sector). Its available here http://westciv.com/style_master/house/good_oil/best_practices/ Hope people might find it interesting/useful john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Keep all content to a single page using CSS for printing?
Is it possible to keep all content to a single page using CSS for
printing?
body {font-size: 1px}
in a print style sheet ought to do it most of the time :-)
john
John Allsopp
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Re: [WSG] Meta Keywords?
Martin, However, I have just received a document from a client who has been advised by a search engine optimisation specialist [hitwise] to add specific Meta Keywords to pages in their site. Get them to ask Hitwise to justify the recommendation, based on anything other than handwaving and superstition. I'd be interested in their response :-) John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsletter!
Ignore it, its a troll john On 26/09/2005, at 7:44 PM, Craig Rippon wrote: Just got this from a Killersites.com, what do you think of the article The Web Standards Lie: How the Web Standards movement has gone too far. ? From: Stefan Mischook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 26 September 2005 7:37 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsletter! Welcome to the Killersites.com newsletter. Hello everyone! I've been on a roll lately - I guess I don't have much else to do? :) Before I go on, if you're a beginner (in web design,) you should do my tutorial: http://www.how-to-build-websites.com/ - - For you 'old pros', I've written my most controversial article in a couple of years! This one is going to tick off nerds all over the world! Check it out: The Web Standards Lie: How the Web Standards movement has gone too far. URL: http://www.killersites.com/blog/2005/silly-nerds-the-web- standards-are-for-browsers/ CIAO, Stefan ARTICLE ARCHIVE This is an archive of my past articles and newsletters - there's a lot of stuff for you to learn from. http://www.killersites.com/articles/articlesHome.htm#web_design05 THE FREE WEBSITE MONITOR Tens of thousands of websites go down everyday, that's just the nature of the web. If your website goes down, shouldn't you be the first one to know and not your clients? You can start monitoring your website(s) today - it's free! http://www.killersites.com/siteMonitor/siteMonitor.jsp BEGINNERS TUTORIAL ON WEB DESIGN I created this website for total beginners: http://www.how-to-build-websites.com/ WEB DESIGN FORUMS We have a very active community of people ready to answer questions. http://www.killersites.com/mvnforum/mvnforum/index That's it for now. Thanks, Stefan Mischook ------ To Unsubscribe, please click here. John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Validator Bug
Andy, It would seem that the CSS validator has a bug in its handling of values. I've been doing a lot of checking with the validator of late (results next week at WE05) The last few days or so they clearly made some big changes to the validator, and there appear to be some significant issues. Might be worth reporting this to the validator people HTH john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
:-) If Russ has his way... j On 08/09/2005, at 4:53 PM, Joshua Street wrote: On Thu, 2005-09-08 at 16:46 +1000, John Allsopp wrote: You'll hear more about that at WE045 I hope we don't have to wait until 2045 for quality coding to catch on! ;-) Kind Regards, Joshua Street base10solutions Website: http://www.base10solutions.com.au/ Phone: (02) 9898-0060 Fax: (02) 8572-6021 Mobile: 0425 808 469 Multimedia Development Agency ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
Hi all, Now we are getting to the core of it! What we need is ISO standardisation for web development! Something like the famous ISO 9000. Quality Control! I an hoping that is an ironic exclamation mark. If you want to be a Quality Accredited web development business, you need to follow a strict line of internationally recognised standards. Of course you can go off track and do the usual shabby invalid HTML crap, but for the serious people an ISO is the perfect solution. for very wealthy organisations ISO9000 is a ludicrous amount of paperwork required to pick up certain government contracts and so on, excluding many smaller providers. It's the last thing the web needs IMO. BTW, there is an ISO version of HTML if you really want to use it. The beauty of the web is its bottom up nature You can largely do automated testing for quality - valid CSS, HTML, WAI compliance - using open source tools, for free. All I can say is, based on a lot of recent auditing, quality of this nature is exceedingly rare in major Australian sites. You'll hear more about that at WE045 john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
Then again, I used to teach at Northern Sydney IT - they aren't all lucky enough to get you Lisa :-) john On 08/09/2005, at 9:48 AM, Herrod, Lisa wrote: There are actually a few excellent teachers at Sydney Institute (ultimo TAFE) who understand and teach web site design and development with a real focus on web standards. Their knowledge is extremely current and while the old addage of 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.' is sometimes true, it isn't always. and defineitely not in this case. Lisa -Original Message- From: Seona Bellamy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 9:36 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign On 08/09/2005, at 9:14 AM, Nick Gleitzman wrote: On 8 Sep 2005, at 8:59 AM, Craig Rippon wrote: by-the-by: I am a web development student at Yeronga TAFE college in Brisbane, Australia. One of my instructors has never heard of DOCTYPE, refuses to put tags in lowercase and also refuses to close , 'cause they don't need to be closed. Which just goes to prove the (cynical) old saw: 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.' Seriously, this is a good example of how important it is that tertiary education the world over keeps its curriculum up to speed with what's happening in the real world. Difficult, I know, given the administrative behemoths that are responsible for govt-run education - but as a student, if your course is not up to scratch, you should complain - in writing - to the highest power that you can. Maybe your local MP? It may take years for change to come about, and probably won't help you, but it may help the students down the line... And in the meantime, you've got us to help you learn to do it right! *grin* Seriously, though, when I did my uni course we had a subject on usability and accessibility and it touched briefly (very briefly) on CSS. Pity none of the tutors really understood it. *sigh* I ended up taking one of the tutes myself, because I was the only one in the class who knew what the lecturer was getting at. Might have considered getting into teaching myself, except that it would mean I had to deal with students... Cheers, Seona. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Barclays standards redesign
> Exactly. I was actually thinking the other day, browsers > should be more like compilers... they should refuse to > parse incorrect code. Then the enforcement would be > on the output end, too. It would be nice, but would only work if -every- browser did it. Otherwise the general opinion would be "This new 'Standards Compliant' browser is broken! Luckilly IE still works." If you have XHTML, and serve it as application/xml. then in modern browsers you'll get your wish :-) Of course, you'll have problems with IE as well, regardless of whether it is valid or not. :-/ john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
Stephen, I like this list in that people are so willing to debate the issues, as that is how we learn and understand what is best, but I think we should not blindly use CSS. We must use it wisely and examine how we are using it so we don't make new mistakes. using CSS is not a blind or unreasoned choice. It is a technology expressly designed for this purpose. That simply isn't true of using tables. I guess what keeps me coming back back to this pointless and frustrating discussion is certainly not for my sake. I could care less that people choose to continue using tables for layout. But when people advocate it as a sensible, reasonable alternative to CSS in any circumstance, then I feel it my weary duty for the sake of people who might be mislead by this to take up the cudgels. Statements like "its horses for courses" (in terms of whether to use tables for layout or CS for layout), perpetuate the erroneous idea that there is some equivalence between the two techniques. There is not. To be clear, one is an entirely outmoded hack that was necessary to create certain types of layout coming up on a decade ago. It has persisted because as much as anything, people continue to build these kinds of layouts, and because developers are in many ways sensibly reluctant to abandon the skills they have acquired. On the other hand, CSS is an entire technology, developed over more than a decade, by very smart sensible people, with much peer review and collaboration, to solve precisely problems of layout in a much more sophisticated, systematic and general way, also taking into account issues of accessibility as fundamental aspects of the technology. to afford the two equal footing when it comes to choosing a valid layout technology is literally absurd. john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
Joshua, thank you for the link, I have been looking for this article for several years (having read it all those years ago) John If you still believe this semantic paradigm is something new, take a look at this article written in 1997. Yes, 1997. http://www.xml.com/pub/a/w3j/s1.people.html John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
aware of the painful lessons learned in the 60s and 70s particularly, (sometimes referred to as the "software crisis") as increasingly complex languages and methodologies failed to solve complex computational challenges. The most famous example, to which I have alluded, is the mistaken ; for : in a fortran program which caused an unmanned moonshot to miss the moon. The conclusion reached was that complex approaches to a problem are inherently more error prone than simpler ones. Which leads me to me theory. The HTML of Table based layouts is inherently more complex than the HTML of CSS based layouts. So it follows that there will be an increase in the likelihood of validation errors in table based layouts over other layouts. So we set out to do an experiment. Find a heterogeneous set of HTML documents, which include table and non table based layouts. Determine the % of each which are valid. My theory would predict that the table based layouts are more likely to be invalid. And so it is. I even stack the odds in favor of table based layouts by choosing sites for very well resourced public entities. If anyone was going to be getting their table based layouts right, it would be these entities. The point of all this yabbering, is that in all the discussion of table versus non table based layouts I have seen over a very very very long time, this point has never been raised. The sad fact is, yes, it probably is a religious thing. I see absolutely no good reason to use tables for layout. The only real argument I have seen, that there are some layouts for which you can't use CSS strikes me a little like the objection that there are some irreducibly complex organs that evolution can't possibly account for, and so they must have been created by god, er, sorry, an intelligent designer. I've actually never seen of of these fabulous beasties. Then of course there are the overwhelming number of cogent arguments in favor of using CSS for layout, that I won't bore anyone with now. I guess I'll finish on a practical note. IM reasonably well informed O, if you want to be a successful web developer in the long run, you'll not be using tables for layout for your whole career. So if not now, when? john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
Bert, OK, you found a strong correlation, but are you drawing the right conclusion? 1. How many were generated with a WYSIWYG editor? Why would that matter. Not even the tools can get tables right? 2. How many were generated by some sort of server side script? So script writers can;t get tables right either? 3. How recently had they been updated? Why would that be in any way relevant? 4. Were they "nested tables rule!" types (which I hate too)? Some. So now some tables based layouts are good and some not? Which ones are they? Why? It's a bit like statistics - they can be used to prove almost anything, depending on how you interpret them :-) Or rhetoric, which can be used to convince oneself of just about anything. John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
Al, With all due respect, that is not very good logic. So, someone inexperienced enough to make an invalid table layout is going to float right through the process of making a CSS-positioned layout? That's quite a spin, John :-) This is based on research into the web sites of dozens of the biggest companies, govt depts and no for profits in Australia. I am talking about the correlation of invalid HTML and table based designs. N ot one of the table based designs validates. Very few of the others do either, but not a ingle table based on does. I'm not evangelizing table-based layouts, although for real-world clients they sometimes are the right choice. I have yet to be convinced that clearly breaking the spirit and letter of a number of web standards, and all the attendant other costs associated with Table based designs is justified by anything other than a designers penchant for that technique. john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
Bert, It's a working draft, not a recommendation or a standard Oh come on. This is precisely MS's ludicrous argument for not supporting CSS2.1 (a subset of 2.0) and you're right. I used to work as a QA Auditor (ISO9001). In standards parlance, "should not" has a different meaning than "must not" or "shall not". Still, if you want to use that document Well what else. The current standards as quoted (that the draft of the next version is STRICTER than the existing would suggest the intent and the direction they are heading in). "*Generally*, display technologies such as [CSS2] www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20050630/#CSS2> can achieve the desired layout effect with improved accessibility." Generally? Meaning there are exceptions? Yes. We cannot foresee every circumstance, or we have to account for one contributors particular obsession so we buy him or her off with "generally"./ "However, *when it is necessary to use a table for layout*, the table must linearize in a readable order." So there are times "when it is *necessary* to use a table for layout"? Keep reading... http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-WCAG20-HTML- TECHS-20050630/#layouttables-avoid No, they are considering it may be unavoidable in some circumstances. "It is *recommended* that authors not use the |table| element for layout purposes *unless the desired effect absolutely cannot be achieved using CSS*." I rest my case. Look, you can find all the justification you want in the fine print of the standards. But their intent is very very clear. Finding justification for the use of Tables for layout in the standards is essentially an act of desperation. This really is flat earth stuff. It is time to let it go john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
Paul, Hang on now. There's nothing about the use of table markup per se that leads one to err more frequently. on the contrary, actual research suggests very strongly that there is. I have found a very high correlation between malformed documents and the use of tables (with the errors occurring in direct association with table code). I guess that's what is one of the many annoying things about this "debate". Its very subjective. This particular thread started when I reported a strong factual correlation between tabled based pages and invalid pages in research I am doing. From then on its been largely handwaving and opinions. The simple fact remains, that in my research into some of the biggest and most popular Australian web sites, not a single site out of about 100 I have surveyed, which is table based has been valid. And the errors in table based sites have been almost invariably associated with the table markup. The correlation is strong. john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
Dead Table Sketch The cast: MR. PRALINE John Cleese SHOP OWNER Michael Palin The sketch: A customer enters a web development shop. Mr. Praline: 'Ello, I wish to register a complaint. (The owner does not respond.) Mr. Praline: 'Ello, Miss? Owner: What do you mean "miss"? Mr. Praline: I'm sorry, I have a cold. I wish to make a complaint! Owner: We're closin' for lunch. Mr. Praline: Never mind that, my lad. I wish to complain about this table what I purchased not half an hour ago from this very boutique. Owner: Oh yes, the, uh, the Norwegian Blue...What's,uh...What's wrong with it? Mr. Praline: I'll tell you what's wrong with it, my lad. 'E's dead, that's what's wrong with it! Owner: No, no, 'e's uh,...he's resting. Mr. Praline: Look, matey, I know a dead table when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now. Owner: No no he's not dead, he's, he's restin'! Remarkable table, the Norwegian Blue, idn'it, ay? Beautiful background! Mr. Praline: The background don't enter into it. It's stone dead. Owner: Nononono, no, no! 'E's resting! Mr. Praline: All right then, if he's restin', I'll wake him up! (shouting at the cage) 'Ello, Mister Valid Table! I've got a lovely fresh border for you if you show... (owner hits the cage) Owner: There, he moved! Mr. Praline: No, he didn't, that was you hitting the cage! Owner: I never!! Mr. Praline: Yes, you did! Owner: I never, never did anything... Mr. Praline: (yelling and hitting the cage repeatedly) 'ELLO POLLY! Testing! Testing! Testing! Testing! This is your nine o'clock alarm call! (Takes parrot out of the cage and thumps its head on the counter. Throws it up in the air and watches it plummet to the floor.) Mr. Praline: Now that's what I call a dead table. Owner: No, no.No, 'e's stunned! Mr. Praline: STUNNED?!? Owner: Yeah! You stunned him, just as he was wakin' up! Norwegian Blues stun easily, major. Mr. Praline: Um...now look...now look, mate, I've definitely 'ad enough of this. That table is definitely deceased, and when I purchased it not 'alf an hour ago, you assured me that its total lack of movement was due to it bein' tired and shagged out following a prolonged rendering. Owner: Well, he's...he's, ah...probably pining for Netscape 3.5. Mr. Praline: PININ' for Netscape 3.5?!?!?!? What kind of talk is that?, look, why did he fall flat on his back the moment I got 'im home? Owner: The Norwegian Blue prefers keepin' on it's back! Remarkable construct, id'nit, squire? Lovely background! Mr. Praline: Look, I took the liberty of examining that table when I got it home, and I discovered the only reason that it had been sitting on the left margin in the first place was that it had been NAILED there. (pause) Owner: Well, o'course it was nailed there! If I hadn't nailed that table down, it would have nuzzled up to those links, bent 'em apart with its beak, and VOOM! Feeweeweewee! Mr. Praline: "VOOM"?!? Mate, this table wouldn't "voom" if you put four million volts through it! 'E's bleedin' demised! Owner: No no! 'E's pining! Mr. Praline: 'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This tabe is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the page 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-TABLE!! (pause) Owner: Well, I'd better replace it, then. (he takes a quick peek behind the counter) Sorry squire, I've had a look 'round the back of the shop, and uh, we're right out of Tables. Mr. Praline: I see. I see, I get the picture. Owner: I got a list. (pause) Mr. Praline: Pray, does it talk? Owner: Nnnnot really. Mr. Praline: WELL IT'S HARDLY A BLOODY REPLACEMENT, IS IT?!!???!!? Owner: N-no, I guess not. (gets ashamed, looks at his feet) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
Al, Peter wrote, Presumably, in this case, the right choice is the choice that limits the up-front cost and training required to get to market? Surely promoting a questionable technique because it's easier to learn and gives almost instant gratification is a dubious one? Al wrote A questionable technique? Would that be because people who make their livings (or try to make a living) evangelizing standards have deemed table layouts "dubious". Hmm :-) This is called the web standards group. I imagine that those here essentially adhere to the value of web standards, and discuss things in this context. The World Wide Web is the province of the World Wide Web Consortium. Like it or not. It does not so much as "try to make a living evangelizing standards" as "lead[s] the web to its full potential" And it is founded and run by the guy who quite literally invented the World Wide Web. One of its many initiatives (along with, you know, simple stuff like PNG, HTML, XHTML, CSS, SVG) is the Web Accessibility Guidelines 3.3. of which says: Use style sheets to control layout and presentation. 5.3 of which says: Do not use tables for layout unless the table makes sense when linearized A bit like deciding that micro-surgery classes at medical school are a waste of time because once you've got a handle on amputation it'll solve most problems far quicker and under budget! Why bother getting bogged down and stressed with the finer points? Ah. So web design is elevated to science. And all this time I thought it was a skilled trade. Sheesh. No, it is a science, at its fundamental level. It is part of computer science/informatics, which teaches us many lessons from history and theory. Most of which we seem very slow to pick up. It is quite evident to me that this type of "cut-and-paste" technique is just as ubiquitous in the CSS positioning arena - if not more so. We too teach CSS layout - but keep it non-religious. We have tens of thousands of customers and a massive support burden in fixing pages that were "built" from poorly devised or overly complex tutorials and articles popular in the standards ring of blogs and online magazines. We don't get a fee for that, sadly. The "CSS is religious" thing is a straw man. In what way is adhering to best practices as recommended by tremendously experienced (and not just in web page development, but in many related branches of computer science) and thoughtful people in a peer reviewed environment "religious"? Sure I wrote an article called "A dao of web design" once, but I was hardly arguing that by developing for the web in that way you'll become a daoist :-) It's far easier to try to get to grips with a page of mark-up with everything in one convenient HTML page than to have to understand the abstraction of separating the content from the presentation. Hey presto! A lovely table-based web page that IE in quirks mode renders as intended! Welcome to inner sanctum of web development. I think perhaps who are mistaken. A table-layout can be just as valid, usable, and accessible as anything else. You can validate pages that use tables for layout. Based on my pretty extensive research it will take more effort than non table based layouts. They can probably be as usable, but according to people who have done an awful lot of work on the issue they won't be as accessible. The key is what is optimal for the project. Using tables on the rare occasion is not a hall pass to skip knowing how to mark up a table - or understand the structure. The problem, in my opinion, is that the same people who devised ridiculous nested table constructs to make web pages look like magazine pages are the very same people who are now condemning tables. Perhaps if they'd taught folks how to make clean table layouts, we wouldn't be having this discussion. This is simply ridiculous. Dave Segal? Tod Farhner? I don't see too many articles by them of late :-) The people who have been strong advocates for table free design are in my reasonably well informed opinion a new generation, starting with people like Eric Meyer, and typified perhaps by young bloods like Dave Shea and Douglas Bowman. From the get go the tables for layout approach was a hack - the use of a technology for a purpose for which it was not intended because it "works" in some narrowly defined set of circumstances. History teaches us that such things, regardless of their present usefulness, we usually come to regret. Y2K anyone? john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conferen
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
Andreas, I don't think "using tables is a very good way of raising the risk of invalid documents" as John suggested, but rather people that use tables have got an old-fashioned mindset. Whatever the reason, if you see a table based design, the chances of it being invalid are raised monumentally. And we are talking about companies and organizations with billion dollar turnovers, multi billion dollar market caps. I think in part you are right that it is mindset. But I'd also argue that the simple use of tables increases the complexity of code, and with it the chances of error. This is a lesson hard learned in Software Engineering - complex languages and constructs, and syntactic complexity raise the chances of error among all developers. The last 30 years of development of programming languages and software engineering approaches has been one of simplifying, and managing complexity (you might argue that it hasn't worked all that well, at least in the wild) Moonshots famously missed the moon due to the complexity of fortran. These were smart people, smarter than I ever was or will be. We tend to learn these lessons in web development slowly, painfully and fitfully if at all. So not only is it *who* is using the technique, it is the technique itself which is problematic. john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] Tables and divs and soon
Might I add two cents? My thoughts on this issue are probably reasonably well known. But a slightly different angle. I've recently been undertaking some serious research into current practices by major companies, government departments, and so on when it comes to web development. I'm in the processing of surveying well over a hundred sites. Some related lessons. Table based layouts are still very very common. So are malfomed documents. Unclosed elements, missing end tags, missing start start, overlapping elements, containment rules broken. You name it. And the location of the overwhelming percentage of these malformations is in and around tables. So the use of tables appears to be associated strongly with invalid documents (and not only through poorly formed documents, but also through the use of invalid attributes associated with td and tr elements). In short, using tables is a very good way of raising the risk of invalid documents. BTW, I'm presenting these findings at WE05, and hope to have a detailed article online soon, john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Online Resources for HTML Beginners
John, you are probably lucky you got one :-) Just to note that we've got fourteen posts and only three recommendations of online resources... there are loads of me too sites, I guess the one I'd really recommend is http://www.htmlhelp.com/ Like many of he best sites, an oldie but a real goodie. It has spawned many imitators. j John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Online Resources for HTML Beginners
Gene, Since someone might wish to refer to the tag as written in the page coding or to refer to the paragraph element itself both possibilities seem open. IMO a lack of precision is likely to result from allowing only one referential mode. I agree is a tag (start tag) is a tag (end tag) is an element Also, the distinction is between the syntax of HTML (tags) and the structural aspects of the document (elements) This distinction, though is some senses subtle, is important to understand, and should be introduced as early as possible when teaching HTML (IMHO) john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Online Resources for HTML Beginners
Excellent! Ah, I see. Good point. I will remember to make that distinction! j John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Online Resources for HTML Beginners
John make sure they never use the term "tag" incorrectly :-) Not quite sure what you mean by that! Do you mean how people always refer to "Alt tags"? Or something else? yeah, they do that And they refer to tags when they mean "elements". Now, it might seem pedantic, but we are dealing with computers, so precision is important. an example of when it makes a significant difference is illustrated by the following Which of these is correct "the caption element comes directly after the table tag" "the caption element comes directly after the table element" john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Online Resources for HTML Beginners
John, I'm confident in teaching them the *absolute* basics, but if the people in the class want to go on to be coders, which online resources would you recommend? not quite what you asked, but make sure you get them to understand doctypes, and standards versus quirks mode (I know it sounds advanced, but basically, no one knows about this stuff, and it bites them sooner rather than later) make sure they know what validation is all about make sure they never use the term "tag" incorrectly :-) all the best, john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Semantic Calendar
Hi, Check out the hcalendar microformat http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar It's based on the widely used iCalender format from the IEEE. Two of the founders of Microformats, Tantek Celik and Eric Meyer are speaking at Web Essentials in Sydney at the end of September. http://we05.com Tantek in particular will be looking a the issues of semantics in detail john On 18/08/2005, at 1:20 PM, Scott Swabey ((Lafinboy Productions)) wrote: G'day all I have been tinkering with a calendar generation script (PHP if relevant), and have developed two versions. One uses a semantically correct table for layout, the other uses ordered lists to hold and layout the day names and month dates. After working on this for a while and thinking about it for wa too long I am faced with the quandary - which of the two versions is _more_ semantically correct? Does a calendar (single month) qualify as tabular data, are ordered lists a better fit, or should I be looking at another option? Any feedback/opinions would be appreciated. Regards Scott Swabey Lafinboy Productions www.lafinboy.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] New front page for http://abc.net.au/
Craig, . I'm confused. Is it drop downs or flyouts that are the problem (or both)? the way I read Donna's post was (editorializing, not Donnas words) 1. flyouts dire, avoid at all cost 2. drop downs don;' have quite the same usability concerns, or at least not tot eh same extent, but be very careful. As a web development student, what resources are available for me to read to help me better understand this issue? I'v not read anything in great detail, but others certainly may have HTH a little john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] New front page for http://abc.net.au/
Thanks for the insight Donna. Nothing like actual testing as opposed to my usual hand waving! Although I still avoid them (I think they are often used as a crutch for poor information architecture), there are some advantages to using them. They do allow people to gain a better understanding of what is in a section, beyond what can be described in a word or two. This reduces the need for a lot of forward and backward clicking and the resulting frustration. We use them a little like this at our store https://order.kagi.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?storeID=WC4&&; The links at the top right (for those not using screen readers, otherwise links under the heading FAQ) when rolled over show furthewr info below. This is precisly because once someone has got to the part where they buy, the last thin you want them to do is go anywhere if they have a question :-) But it isn't for navigation! john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] New front page for http://abc.net.au/
Frederic, how would you rate http://www.ourbrisbane.com/ which is using a mix of drop down menu and apparent second level navigation. It could be seen as a solution to make everyone happy!? Its probably straying a little from Web standards directly, onto usability issues, but still within best practices. I would like to see all such menus as dead and buried as the blink element. I have not done extensive user testing on these kinds of menus. However, since the beginning of time, in app development, the recommendation has always been to use submenus carefully and sparingly, if in doubt, don't. While these are superficially analogous to main menus, I think in reality they are more like sub menus, so this well tested observation is worth keeping in mind. In the case of this site, I'd be inclined to ditch the drop downs, and have their contents on the pages you visit when you click What's on, and so on. Which is what actually happens, but confusingly, when you get to these pages, you get both. What happens if a user does a find (cmd-f) for some text that is in one of the drop downs? I note that in your site a lot of it is repeated, but otherwise, bnothing shows up. Users often use this technique for finding something - another good reason to avoid Image Replacement techniques also. Has anyone done any user testing on drop downs? Tania maybe? I'd be interested to know wether users use these, or avoid them like the plague - or don;t even notice them, afterall, how are we supposed to know they are flyout or dropdown menus? HTH john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] New front page for http://abc.net.au/
Frederic, I want to convince people not to have drop down on some of our sites at work... I am looking for some good reasons not to have them... We have some on our current site and it looks like (from the web stats) that people are actually using them a lot Thanks for the opportunity for letting me sound off on one of my favourite subject - Russ is now running for the corner (a quick aside, Russ and I just gave a series of workshops round Australia, and this came up once or twice, My firm views were noted. I have lots of firm views.). OK, let's start with the basic UI principles. A menu is a set of verbs, for doing actions. Navigation menus are a set of nouns for choosing content. So its akin to using a radio button in place of a checkbox they are designed for two different uses. Secondly - while menus on the OSs are designed so that traversing diagonally to a submenu will not close that submenu, JS submenus (and CSS ones too) almost invariably close unless you enter directly from the entry in the main menu relevant to them - this is why they are difficult for most users and essentially impossible for users without really good fine motor skills to access. So, 1. they break the UI guidelines on all platforms that have been in pace for over two decades for menus 2. they have serious usability issues 3. they have serious accessiiblity issues A further Usability issue is that by using them, we tend to hide contextual information about where we are in a site - we tend to know which major section we are in, but not the subsection within that section. In non trivial sites, this a major issue. Why do people use them then? I think their popularity is a symptom of style over substance, which drives a lot of web design - The image replacement techniques, misuse of flash (rarely is it used well, and even when it is used well, it tends to be used for everything (text and still graphics as well as interactive stuff) rather than jsut for what it does well). Just my not so humble appearance. John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] New front page for http://abc.net.au/
John, I've been waiting for one of the Australian members of the mailing list to comment on the new look/code for http://abc.net.au/ so I might as well raise the issue myself. I personally had nothing to do with the design, code or any other aspect of it (apart from being involved in a very broad consultative process), but I'd be interested in a WSG perspective. all in all, a great redesign, compared with the page of old (as you may know, I've seen it a lot :-) (to those who may not know, my wife works at the ABC :-) I am very glad that there aren't any drop down menus (I am happy to say these are an abomination on principle and should be avoided like the plague) and text as images is almost entirely avoided. I think the use of the text in the masthead is entirely appropriate and think the choice to make it an image element rather than background image is entirely correct. Most people would have used CSS for that but I think what you've done is better n principle and in fact. Minor nitpick - I might have suggested an em driven top navigation bar - at present, the text is clipped as you zoom it in that bar. But that may have had significant impacts on the design of the rest of the site. I noted also the use of a bg image for the select location button - which shows up as you zoom. The sliding doors technique could work for that, but I'd always suggest making a button a platform specific button. CSS doesn't appear to have any bugs, but one slight HTML problem - there is a style element inside the body of the page. All in all, from first look a nice usable accessible design, with almost entirely valid markup, well done j (compare http://gov.au, possibly the worst page on the web!) John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS List Separator
Bert, Patrick and all. The issue of semantics, presentation and accessibility for legislation is a really good example of the genuine social importance of what people like members of WSG do. The law is central to our society. We probably all know the maxim "ignorance of the law is no defence". So if any documents need to be made accessible to all, it is legal ones. There is also a considerable tradition of people with visual disabilities achieving to the highest level in the law. For instance, The present Dean of the University of Sydney law school, Ron McCallum, is blind. It definitely pays to stop and think about accessibility when we come to consider even what may appear quit straightforward aspects of what we do. Very good question Richard, john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://www.westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS List Separator
Bert, Or what about simple normal every-day headings? We can go up to 6 levels deep with them... I guess it all depends on the application. I think using headings is a very good suggestion. In legislation, the numbered entries we are talking about are indeed headings for sections, sub sections and so on Whether 6 deep is enough I am not entirely sure though, they can get very complex! john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://www.westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS List Separator
Richard, Wondering how we can get CSS to specifity the spearator used in ordered lists (ie: the thing between the list item number and the value of the list item). For example... 1. a) 1 - a: I need this ability to replicate government legislation and apparently it has to be an EXACT duplicate. As far as I can tell, this isn't in the spec. Has anyone found a solution? Some fancy CSS hack or DOM scripting that will get around this? I know its not remotely answering your question, but there are many who believe that numbering is a very important part of the content of some documents (particularly legislation) and so should be in the content of the HTML, not styled using CSS. This aids web searching, local searching, and may indeed be a requirement for publication of legislation. Hope that's of some use (oh, and its much less of a fuss than using CSS counters and content which won't work completely anyway) john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://www.westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] elements and what they can contain
Peter,
re: elements may only contain other inline elements
hang on,
so if i have an anchor tag wrapped around an image (display:inline by
default), its deemed fine by the validator, but if I make that image
"display:block" via the css, (for design purposes, which must be a
pretty common practice on many, many sites - including many i've
designed) would that practice be frowned upon if the validator could
validate your markup *and* the corresponding css at the same time?
No, the two models are similar but different.
In HTML, an element's display type does not change even if you use
the display property of CSS - that's simply how the element is
rendered. In terms of the document tree, and as far as a validator is
concerned its still a block or inline element as defined by the DTD.
possibly some bigger questions there - one being, why shouldnt you be
able to wrap a anchor around a block level element?
Cause you can't :-)
This is a legacy of SGML. For whatever reason, way back when, certain
containment constraints on elements were decided upon, and they stay
with us still.
Similarly, elements can't contain other elements. (though I
reckon that's a legacy of tag soup days when people did this a
paragraph a new paragraph so much that paragraphs implicitly
closed themselves when they met a new opening element )
i know the
difference between inline and block, and the fact that block elements
cant be inside inline elements - but this particular anchor question
seems a bit shakey
Yes, though in practical terms I've never found it an issue ('til I
started playing round with Microformats, particularly hCard). That's
why I really really wanted to be sure. But that's for a whole nutha post
j
p.s. any rugby fan WSG members whole live near Bondi, I'll be at the
beach road hotel to watch the Super 12 final (I only say this cause
Peter lives in Bondi too, though he probably quite sensibly hates
rugby :-)
john
John Allsopp
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Re: [WSG] elements and what they can contain
Thanks Lea, all sorted now, john On 26/05/2005, at 5:20 PM, Lea de Groot wrote: Yep, as Ingo says, the '%inline;' means 'only inline elements in here' and the '-(A)' means 'except that exciting one, the anchor'. John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://www.westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] elements and what they can contain
Pabhath, Was going through the specs when Lea responded, but surprisingly, there's no specific phrase that says you can't wrap block level elements inside an anchor. I guess it's implied that no inline element can contain a block level element, and there's no need to specifically mention this with regard to anchors. I'd say so too. I've "known" this for years, but in preparing something quite technical, I needed to satisfy myself it was 100% the case. thanks j John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://www.westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] elements and what they can contain
Lea, that would be this bit yes? j On 26/05/2005, at 4:47 PM, Lea de Groot wrote: On Thu, 26 May 2005 16:30:30 +1000, John Allsopp wrote: Can anyone point me to the definitive part of the HTML spec that says this? http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/links.html#edef-A is one place :) Lea ~ sits back to see if she got in first ;) -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet elysiansystems.com/> Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web Design Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://www.westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] elements and what they can contain
I believe that, and all my reading leads me to believe that elements may only contain other inline elements (not including elements. Can anyone point me to the definitive part of the HTML spec that says this? Thanks, john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://www.westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] best way to approach markup of an address
Andrew and all sorry about jeopardy quoting. I'm leaving the below in for context This is the ideal situation for a "microformat", an emerging and exciting way of adding richer semantics to HTML within the existing standard http://developers.technorati.com/wiki/MicroFormats The hCard (based on the IETF vCard format) may well suit your purposes. Based on my experience at South by Southwest, and the recent WWW2005 where I was involved in the Microformats Developer Day, I believe this is going to be significant. Tantek Çelik, formerly at Microsoft (IE5 for Mac), now at Technorati, is one of the drivers of microformats, along with Eric Meyer. Both will be speaking at Web Essentials later in the year, and I've little doubt Microformats will be on the agenda there. John On 26/05/2005, at 1:32 PM, Andrew Krespanis wrote: On 5/24/05, Ben Curtis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Canada In The Game, Inc. Customer Service 135 West Beaver Creek Road Box #604 Richmond Hill ON L4B 1C0 I think that one would have to qualify as improper use of a . The method I use to decide on the appropriate use of is to say 'equals' in between the and each . Now let's apply that to your use: 'Canada equals In The Game, Inc' ...no it doesn't 'Canada equals Customer Service' ...no it doesn't 'Canada equals ON' ...ummm, the other way around, perhaps. and so on. Andrew. --- http://leftjustified.net/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://www.westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Best way to train someone in css and web standards
Hi, I have the opportunity to hire two people in the next few weeks to help me with my one-man-band web development business. Problem is, these two know only the most basic aspects of HTML and don't know anything about CSS or web standards. Problem also is that I can't afford to hire anyone currently proficient at these two disciplines. Learning CSS was a painfully slow process for me (as I never had time to concentrate on it, or standards coding, because I was always doing everything else as well). To this day, I still wouldn't consider myself anywhere near expert level: The moans and groans and "geez, why did that happen" is pretty much behind me, but I'm no expert. Since I'll still be too busy to sit with them for hours at a time teaching them the little that I know, I'd like to have some opinions on the best way to bring two absolute newbies up to CSS/Web Standards proficiency without me having to be at their elbow every step along the way. By proficiency, I mean that I can give them a Photoshop design comp, and they will be able to create an XHTML code foundation as well as a CSS style and positioning spec without too much whining and head-scratching. My plan is to get them completely compeletely trained in these areas before letting them dive into any real project development. All comments welcome and greatly appreciated.Two things come to mind. If you are in Australia, keep an eye on this list for an announcement soon about standards development workshops by the people who bring you Web Essentials (including the founders of WSG). Keep July clear if you are interested people :-) Also, at the risk of shilling, check out these courses, that are very highly regarded, have been done by thousands of people around the world, and were developed in Australia by people who have been involved with Web Standards since the very beginning(oh yeah, that includes me)http://westciv.com/courses/index.htmlWe also have a lot of very useful free training resources too,http://westciv.com/style_master/house/index.htmlthanksjohn John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://www.westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher
Re: [WSG] zindex
Hi,I've been playing around with positioning and z-index and I'm wondering if it is possible to give a containing box higher z-index that it's children. Would need testing, but as a gut feeling I'd say you can only do it if you remove the child from the normal document flow by positioning it absolutely. you can do it even without absolute positioning.First you need to give the element a position of relative. You'll also need to do this for the children. That way they can stay in the flow (because their top and left are 0 unless you change them)Now, give the children a negative z-index, and the parent a positive one (or 0)That ought to do it,John John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://www.westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher
Re: [WSG] flash and accessabilty
I imagine something has got in a loop. I know Peter F is busy tonight, and I'm not going to call him to ruin his night off, I will call Russ. In the meantime, if everyone can be a little patient while the problem is solved, that will be best. John On 09/04/2005, at 6:36 PM, Ryan wrote: Yeah, I received dozens of copies of the message, what's wrong? On 4/9/05 12:23 AM, "Gizax Studios" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: what happened? I've received more responses like this - Original Message - From: "scott parsons" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: ; "IMB Recipient 1" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2005 9:16 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] flash and accessabilty Patrick Lauke wrote: In and of itself, flash will never be accessible to everybody, as it requires a plugin; it's not a web native technology. A plugin huh?, I've always wondered what the difference was between having to have the flash plugin and having to have a web browser? it is very hard to see any html css website without the correct plugin (that is a browser), so why does it suddenly become so much worse when flash is required? Sorry but I have just never understood this argument, would you mind explaining? Older screenreaders can't access its content at all. So, it's important to provide accessible fallback mechanisms. Yeah but my fallback positions for older browsers, like say netscape 2 are pretty hazy, theoretically they could understand the plain html, ignoring more modern tags but I haven't really tested it recently. However, for the percentage of users that *can* use flash (have the plugin, have assistive technology that works correctly with it, etc), you should then ensure that the flash itself follows sensible, accessibility-related norms and conventions. I'd suggest having a look at Bob Regan's recent post on Flash Accessibility http://www.markme.com/accessibility/archives/007003.cfm and the interesting WCAG 1.0 Techniques for Flash http://www.markme.com/accessibility/archives/007344.cfm (just to clarify: WCAG itself does not necessarily cover Flash, as it's not an official W3C technology...so this document makes recommendations that are similar / in sympathy with what WCAG tries to achieve, but in a Flash context). These links are really useful as I work in advertising and it is a constant battle to get any kind of adherence to accessibility requirements. But also because there are many flash designers out there who would like to learn but haven't found good resources. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm f
Re: [WSG] Centre DIV Vertically? Any compliant methods?
John, What I want is the ability to align the content of a DIV, for instance, or any block element, vertically, and I'm asking why it wasn't included in CSS-1. I can't think of any policy-type reason why it wasn't, that's all, and I don't see vertical alignment as being directly related to table-cell display either. I can't speak for Hakon Lie or Bert Bos but... The original proposal was taking shape in 95/95, really before the abomination of tables for layout had ruined the web :-) So I'm guessing that it simply wasn't something everyone wanted to do, like it is now. Ditto multi column layout f'rinstance. Maybe Bert will have an answer :-) John John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] WSG thoghts on XUL
Dean,
I don't think it's beyond the scope of the W3C. We're constantly
looking
at technologies like XUL. Do people see the need for standardisation
in this area?
Sure.
I think the real benefit of standardisation and standards bodies is not
necessarily the standards they develop (in a sense, it's not even
necessary, and arguably not even advisable they develop those
standards, at least not from top to bottom) but that by anointing
technology it becomes a common good. The alternative is "industry
standards" that is winner takes all proprietary technologies, which are
the property and strategic asset of their creator.
XUL/XAML is a very good example of this. XUL was developed at Mozilla,
whose implementation was a great proof of concept. It's a shame that
early on in its development Mozilla didn't take it to WC and say, look
here is this really cool technology that works, would you guys like to
work with us to standardize this?
Or maybe they did and I don't know about it.
Unfortunately now we have two competing technologies that are similar,
leading to years if not decades in the delay of the adoption of XUL
like solutions.
Just as an aside why
and not
.whatever {shape: circle}
?
j
John Allsopp
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software, courses, resources for a standards based web
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**
[WSG] Javascript guru: volunteer some skills to a relevant charity
Hi, [I've run this by moderators to ok it] The Brain Injury Resource Foundation http://www.birf.info/index.shtml Is a charity very relevant to the ideals of this list (and to Russ and Peter's recent article regarding accessibility and cognitive impairment) Presently they are redoing their site to be standards based and accessible as possible. They've run into some Javascript issues they are having difficulty solving. If any of you fine JS gurus out there have a little bit of time to help them solve this (I really don't think it is much from what I can tell) could you drop me a line offlist and I'll put you in touch with them. Thanks in advance, john John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE7 may ship ahead of Longhorn
Chris, http://news.com.com/Reversal+Next+IE+update+divorced+from+Windows/2100-1032_3-5577263.html Good news for web standards? Being the eternal naysayer that I am, I'll say, um, nay. Why? >From the article linked, this quote from a ms spokesperson Microsoft's Nash declined to shed any light on the question of features in the IE update, restricting his comments to planned security enhancements such as better defenses against phishing scams and improved spyware protection. "Right now, the focus is security," Nash said. "There may be other things that are in there, but the goal is on security." IE 6 buggy rendering engine it is then. Sigh john p.s. developers everywhere are excited by this, checkout Slashdot, etc ad nauseam. Why? Cause no one RTFAs. The fineprint is that this is IE6 SP2 all over again. If I were a cynic, I'd say this were directed at precisely that group (developers), who, um, are precisely the single greatest adopters of Firefox. I'd go so far as to say it a tactical strike to attempt to stem the flow of developers to using Firefox as their main browser. But that would be cynical, and MS are of course never cynical. John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/
Re: [WSG] GMail... Terrible!
Francesco, It seems like we are making the world "less free" by forcing companies/corporations/individuals to conform to "equality" laws. at the risk of sounding terribly cynical, corporations in particular are by their very nature selfish. They exist to generate shareholder profit. To the extent they are permitted by law, they will by and large pollute, gouge their customers, and trample of people's rights. So we have limits on corporations behavior, to ensure that society isn't a total disaster. Many people on this list have spent many frustrating year dealing with the fact that clients, or employers really don't care about issues like accessibility. Hey, they generally don't even care about usability, notwithstanding that can effect your bottom line overnight. Isn't this just another form of conformity and regulation? Just like standards in television, radio, cinema, telecommunications, food production, pollution control... Sure. But the fact you can listen to the same CD on every player you stick it in, but can barely visit the same site with two different browsers should tell us that standards and conformity are not always bad things. Right now, everyone on the web is working to implement standard based browsers except one. Who is it and why? John oh, and before anyone accuses me of being a raving communist, I run a business, am a director of two, and try to be as ethical as possible in all my business dealings. Its public corporations that I am referring to here. j John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] web standards training course/events in Sydney?
Leslie, I'm wishing we could have something like that in my neck of the woods... SxSW is on soon, and two of the organizers of Web Essentials are speaking. I'd recommend getting down and organize quickly if you are going to, because hotels fill up!) Maxine Sherrin is speaking with Molly Holzschlag and Eric Meyer on Women on the Web, while I (John Allsopp) am organizing a panel with Dave Shea, Doug Bowman, Jon Hicks and Eris Free on Web design and development in 2010. As to Neerav's comment about price, WE and SxSW are two quite radically different events. SxSW content is largely discussion panels, where several speakers cover a particular subject. Speakers are largely not paid, and people tend to go as much for the networking and socializing as for the content. Web Essentials is all about the content. We focus on bringing out the best speakers in the World, and making sure that the content is focussed, and we want every second to be as valuable, and enjoyable, as possible. I guess its a bit like the big day out being cheaper than seeing U2 (music analogy, sorry for non Aussies). both have their place I'm really looking forward to SxSW, but see it as being a very different thing from Web Essentials and other such conferences. Hope this helps, john John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] web standards training course/events in Sydney?
Cade, Anybody know of any good training course or events that are being held in Sydney (or the other capital cities) this year on web standards/best practice web design/usability etc - other than the regular wsg meetings? (For budgetary purposes, I need to identify any that I want to attend now, rather than later.) Web Essentials will definitely be on again. Russ, Peter Maxine and I are working hard to put together an even better event this year. There will be an announcement reasonably soon, but if you thought last year was good... Same time frame as last year too, Toward the end of September. john John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)
I reckon this discussion is relevant here too. The one I'm struggling with at the moment is a form with Select Gender M / F. It's a government web site so I'm trying to be careful. Checkboxes are inappropriate. I could use a with M and F but then what for "unspecified" or "don't want to answer" or "I just ignored that question"? Also, whatever is chosen takes 2 clicks. Unchecked radio buttons are a very usable choice, you hit one or the other or neither and move on. Mike said "...it is sometimes invalid communications/user interface to have one and only one 'checked' item at all times. I said, and still hold to the view, that sometimes a form has to be presented with none of the radio buttons 'checked'". I agree. What happens in this scenario I check a radio button Then I think, "no, I don't want to check any of them" How do I uncheck the radio button checked without setting one of the others in the same group? Reset the whole form? So now, by supposedly giving me the option of not making a choice, you force me to make a choice. Radio button groups exist for precisely the situation where there is one and only one option that must be chosen. That's how they have always worked. The web has enough trouble with people inventing their own buttons, styling scrollbars with Microsoft's CSS like scrollbar style abominations, inventing their own scrollbars (why does every flash site have to do that?). The UI conventions of the desktop have been around for a generation now. They represent the baseline of user expectations about how an interface should look, and work. Their appearance and behavior are burned deep into the unconscious of all computer users. Let's not keep reinventing the wheel. HTML and the platforms on which our browsers run provide perfectly good UI widgets and behaviours that users are used to. Now to try to be useful In this scenario The one I'm struggling with at the moment is a form with Select Gender M / F. It's a government web site so I'm trying to be careful. Checkboxes are inappropriate. I could use a with M and F but then what for "unspecified" or "don't want to answer" or "I just ignored that question"? Also, whatever is chosen takes 2 clicks. Yes, checkboxes are not appropriate, as there should be at most one answer. Two checkboxes could allow 2 answers. What is wrong with a popup menu, the initial option being "No answer" and the other options Male and Female? The UI itself tells them they need not answer. If you had radio buttons, you'd need a label that said "you do not have to answer this question" and then you have to hope the user sees it (whereas in the popup menu case, they see it while making the choice.) And we also avoid the problem of them checking a radio button then not being able to uncheck it. They also need only click once. So it seems that in this case the popup menu is superior to misusing radio buttons. John -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Horner Sent: Wednesday, 2 February 2005 5:25 p.m. To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?) That's the relevance to standards - i.e. that if it's only standard if there is a default radio button and never valid if none of them are 'checked' then the standard is wrong and ought to be changed. I heartily agree, Mike. "Have You Validated Your Code?" John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 3488 Senior Developer, ABC Online http://www.abc.net.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)
John, [snip -- I did know the difference between checkboxes and radio buttons!] I was almost certain you did :-) If you're saying that a set of radio two or more buttons must always be shown with at least one pre-selected, i.e. as soon as the page loads, one is already selected, then there are only two options for the original poster to get good information from their form: Well, by convention, that is what radio buttons should do. 1) Three radio buttons, one of them pre-selected for the value "nothing" or "incorrect input" -- the user is encouraged to select one of the other two and an error given by the script if they don't 2) A select menu, with one option pre-selected for "nothing" as above. If there are 4 or fewer responses, that is where radio buttons have traditionally been recommended. For more, "popup" menus. I'd suggest a radio button with "no response" or some such, which is selected, and then the other two The first seems kind of illogical to me, and the users will be more used to the second. Given this limitation of radio buttons, I wonder why it has not turned up in UI discussion much. I've never seen it as an issue before (althoough I do see it as one in this instance) j John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)
John, If you want to get good data from your form, and you have two radio buttons, then neither should be checked by default. Your CGI script or whatever should do the checking and return the form with "you must select a button to proceed". the difference between a radio button set and checkboxes is (going way back to Mac UI guidelines in the 80s) is that a radio button group always has a value, and the values are mutually exclusive (you can't check two radio buttons in the same group), whereas checkboxes in a group can all be on, all be off, or any combination of on and off. It's a long time since I have done some intensive forms work, but IIRC, browsers generally managed this for you if you set up your radio button sets properly. I know, its strictly off topic, but its about conventions, which are a kind of standard john John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] pop quiz: calculating specificity of group selectors
OK,
very good answers all, and I tend to agree
I suppose it might be best considered like this
h1, h2 {}
is *really*
h1{}
h2{}
BTW, just a little aside,
this is just a tiny example of why writing browsers, and development
tools is really hard, because these kinds of issue come up all the time
with specifications.
Joe Spolsky's recent Salon interview (reg required at salon.com)
touches on this,
thanks for all the answers, I buy them :-)
J
On 15/12/2004, at 10:03 AM, russ - maxdesign wrote:
They have the same weight. They are just groupings of individual
selectors.
More on this here:
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/selector.html#grouping
Theoretically, a browser must sort each element separately, so it will
gather any rule that includes an h1 and then sort out the weightings.
As the browser has to look at each mention of an individual element, it
would treat "h1, h2" as two separate rule sets to be sorted separately
when
their relevant elements are being sorted.
My 2 cents
Russ
Perhaps someone has seen, or has a definitive answer to this question
which has the higher specificity
h1 {}
or
h1, h2 {}
(don't worry about the order in the style sheet, just in an absolute
sense)
Relevant part of the CSS specification is here
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/cascade.html#specificity
FWIW, I think it is ambiguous. But strictly thinking,
"count the number of element names and pseudo-elements in the
selector"
I interpret to mean that the group is of specificity 2, and so higher
than the type selector, of specificity 1
Or do they both have a specificity of 1?
Thanks, interested in people's thoughts,
**
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
******
John Allsopp
:: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/
software, courses, resources for a standards based web
:: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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**
[WSG] pop quiz: calculating specificity of group selectors
Perhaps someone has seen, or has a definitive answer to this question
which has the higher specificity
h1 {}
or
h1, h2 {}
(don't worry about the order in the style sheet, just in an absolute
sense)
Relevant part of the CSS specification is here
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/cascade.html#specificity
FWIW, I think it is ambiguous. But strictly thinking,
"count the number of element names and pseudo-elements in the selector"
I interpret to mean that the group is of specificity 2, and so higher
than the type selector, of specificity 1
Or do they both have a specificity of 1?
Thanks, interested in people's thoughts,
john
John Allsopp
:: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/
software, courses, resources for a standards based web
:: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**
Re: [WSG] New Windows
Ben, John has just posted an interesting piece about this... http://westciv.typepad.com/standards/2004/11/another_way_of_.html Actually it was Maxine :-) And it is a good little discussion of the practical issues John John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Font-size issue on Mac
My guess is her IE font display Prefs have been changed (Preferences - Language/Fonts - Fonts and Size). If I reduce mine from the 16 pt default to 12 pt, the main nav menu type becomes too small to read. And there is lies the danger of all this trying to get pages to all look the same in different browsers. http://westciv.com/style_master/house/good_oil/dao/index.html http://westciv.com/style_master/house/good_oil/not_paper/index.html john John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Ten questions for John Allsopp
Cam, Trust soft Australian journalists not to ask the tough questions, such as how much drug consumption was going on backstage at WE04 prior to the WWWF smackdown. We had fantales, minties and water for all the speakers :-) I think the overseas speakers we bemused by the first two J John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Ten questions for John Allsopp
John, Included in the "more", by the way? This little nugget, dropped casually into an anecdote about rat's milk, the Simpsons and backpackers in internet cafes: So when I came to naming my blog, Sara, who by the time people read this will be my wife ... is it off-topic to say "congratulations"? I guess it is, but can I just point out that it hasn't quite happened yet, as the interview went out earlier than anticipated. Which is off topic, 'cept for the fact it is in a WSG interview with me ;-) Thanks, john John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] westciv templates competition results
Sam, Don't mean to be ignorant, but the winners doesn't work correctly in Ie 6.0.2 - there's a step on the right above the links ! I'd be happy to answer this but I really think it is OT. Suffice to say a lot of effort and time went into the judging, by a number of people who are across a lot of the issues (including Russ) and we came out with the results we did. Thanks, john John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ :: WebEssentials Sept 2004 Sydney Australia :: http://www.we04.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] westciv templates competition results
Hi all, just a quick note on our templates competition. We've announced our winners, please take a look http://www.westciv.com/style_master/templates/index.html We had almost 50 entries, many of considerable quality. Good to see how far CSS based design has come in the last few years. John John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ :: WebEssentials Sept 2004 Sydney Australia :: http://www.we04.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] Firefox and web development
Hi all, [a side note, I cleared this with the list moderators just in case it might be considered OT, always a good idea] I am writing something on Firefox as a web development tool, and I am interested in how people here use Firefox's features and extensions to build valid, standards based sites. Simple things like using text-sizing, things like plug ins, if it is part of your development and test regime, I'd love to hear about it. Please email me directly, [EMAIL PROTECTED], and I'll let the list know about the results. Thanks in advance, John John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ :: WebEssentials Sept 2004 Sydney Australia :: http://www.we04.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Mac Tools Kit for Web Standards Developer
From: Andy Budd Not forgetting Style Master http://www.westciv.com/style_master/ Andy Budd Yeah, I was waiting for that one to come up. Thanks Andy and Geoff Review comparing Mac CSS Editors at the bible MacWorld here http://www.macworld.com/2004/07/reviews/cascadingstylesheeteditors/? lsrc=mwweek-0719 John John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ :: WebEssentials Sept 2004 Sydney Australia :: http://www.we04.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] WSG Melbourne: Meet Doug Bowman and Dave Shea
Aaron, I live in the inner south east (caulfield area) of melbourne, so i'm hoping it will be reasonably close. these guys crossed the globe. I reckon crossing town is no super hardship :-) john John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ :: WebEssentials Sept 2004 Sydney Australia :: http://www.we04.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Brisbane Meeting, Wednesday
Andrew, et al, thanks very, much, it was a pleasure, although this Brisbanian habit of selling beer by the pint can sneak up on you. http://www.welie.com/patterns/ was the particular page I was thinking of. I hope to have the presentation up soon at my blog and westciv's site, so keep an eye out, Thanks Lea, Gary and Vaughn for the invite, organisation and the night John I second that, it was a very interesting night... Thanks guys! ...and I third (?) that motion; most enjoyable. I've been looking for the web related design patterns that John mentioned, not sure if I've found it though. http://www.e-gineer.com/articles/design-patterns-in-web- programming.phtml http://www.appropriatesoftwarefoundation.org/cgi-bin/wiki.cgi? PatternsForDoingWebsites http://www.welie.com/patterns/ http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WebsitePatterns ..and here's a page full of related resources http://www.pliant.org/personal/Tom_Erickson/InteractionPatterns.html Although in the end I think I just got lost in the web of dated documents. Andrew Krespanis http://leftjustified.net/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ****** John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ :: WebEssentials Sept 2004 Sydney Australia :: http://www.we04.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Brisbane meeting tonight
Thanks Lea, Miss the meeting and you miss meeting John Allsopp - you don't want to miss that opportunity, surely! ;) but if there is a low turn out, I'll take it personally people :-) See you tonight, John John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ :: WebEssentials Sept 2004 Sydney Australia :: http://www.we04.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Brisbane Meeting, Wednesday
Thanks Gary, I think the train is winning, and I am staying right near one of the city stops See you weds, John Taxi - or the train (they call it Airtrain - just because it comes from the Airport). John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ :: WebEssentials Sept 2004 Sydney Australia :: http://www.we04.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Brisbane Meeting, Wednesday
Lea, can I just say I am very much looking forward to being there. But just one slightly off topic question for any who lives in Brisbane or travel there frequently (please answer offlist) What's the best way to get from the airport to the CBD. Taxi? Bus? Other? Thanks, and see you in Brisbane Weds night, John John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ :: WebEssentials Sept 2004 Sydney Australia :: http://www.we04.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] CSS competition
Hi all, a lot of people don't know that Style Master is developed right here in Australia (in fairness a lot of people have never heard of Style Master...) Anyway, time gets by and on September 9th, Style Master will be 6 years old. Since 1998 Style Master, CSS and web standards have come a long way. To celebrate this anniversary, and how far we have all come, Westciv are holding the Style Master Templates Competition. http://www.westciv.com/style_master/templates/index.html The competition challenges designers to develop stylish, standards based CSS + XHTML templates that can be reused and adapted by developers around the world. We've got over $US1000 in cash as well as other prizes on offer. All winning entries will be included with Style Master as easily reused templates, and their designers will receive a copy of Westciv's upcoming Style Master 4. They'll also be showcased on a special page at the Westciv site. But there is also real money up for grabs, in the following categories. Grand Prize - Best Template 1st: $US400 Runner up: $US150 Best No-graphics Template Prize: $US150 Best Handheld Template Prize: $US150 Best Print Template Prize: $US150 Most Innovative Prize: $US150 Best Template from a Student Prize: A complete set of westciv's software and publications What's in it for the winners? Developers you will have the opportunity to showcase their skills in both coding and design to a global audience. Westciv's site receives hundreds of thousands of visitors a month, and is a by-word for quality CSS and standards based learning resources. All eligible entries will be featured at Westciv in our templates section. And of course, we're also offering significant prizes for winning entries :-) Entries close October 4th. All categories to be judged by our judges Molly Holzschlag and Paul Scrivens, with the winners announced October 18th. Check our site for more details. http://www.westciv.com/style_master/templates/index.html Regards John John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ :: WebEssentials Sept 2004 Sydney Australia :: http://www.we04.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] NYTimes.com Article: Microsoft Quits a U.N. Standards Group
Gary, If I was involved with this group and was required to warrant something I placed into an Open Source project which I then had little control over how it would be used, I'd be pulling out too. the issue of IP and standards is a tricky one. There are many standards bodies, the ones we know best are probably the W3C and the ISO. Here is the issue. Due to our current IP laws, (particularly patents) almost every idea under the sun is essentially owned by someone. Obviously standards are based on existing ideas, and so in essence, to have a standard, you are using someone's IP. This is not a theoretical problem. Microsoft have been granted patents that would apply to cascading style sheets. So potentially any browser, or software that uses style sheets may infringe MS's patent. You can see perhaps why I think this is an important issue. Now, if you as a company contribute IP to a standard, in effect you have the standards body over a barrel. In order for anyone to adopt the standard, they need to license your IP. Once a standard is in place, what is to stop you discriminating between different companies, essentially driving some if not all of your competitors out of the space in which the standard operates? So, in order for a standard to work as it should (levelling the playing field for all players), this needs to be addressed. Originally the W3C policy was that all IP had to be offered to anyone using the standard under a Reasonable and non discriminatory license (RAND). This caused an outcry. Suppose MS charged $200K to use CSS. This doesn;t discriminate, as all are charged the same. But whereas Apple or Opera might have no real trouble with that, what about open source projects like Mozilla? Or guys like us (westciv, developers or Style Master)? So the W3C policy now is, royalty free license. You don't lose your IP, you just can't charge for it if it is used in the context of the standard. The issue of what happens if a company changes its mind is interesting, and differs between standards bodies. I won't bore people with the details here, except to say that the license is not enforceable. If I contribute IP to a w3c standard, I can withdraw that even after a standard is published, and the W3C has no way of enforcing the license (this is according to a patent attorney who spoke on this issue at a recent conference I attended) The W3C does have a policy regarding what it will do in these circumstances, bu see here for details http://www.w3.org/IPR/ Sol in essence, there has to be a trade off. You can't be allowed to use IP as a trojan horse to control standards and so a whole industry. At the bottom of this is our really problematic use of Real Property concepts and laws as a basis for IP laws. They are a bad fit for many reasons. Which is not to say we should not have IP laws, but to say that they should be framed in rational ways, for general benefit. At present IP laws are essentially being written by large US companies for their own exclusive benefit. Then countries like australia stupidly adopt them via trojan horses like the recent so called free so called trade so called agreement between the US and Australia, which claim to "harmonize" IP laws between the US and Australia by *Australia adopting US laws in toto*. Anyway, this is way off topic in some respects, but right on topic in others. john John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ :: WebEssentials Sept 2004 Sydney Australia :: http://www.we04.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Table-Free Design
John, If I want to find solid building blocks for a table-free layout, where should I start? I mean, I know there are hundreds of websites, but the recommendations of this group ought to be particularly useful. The thing is, I want a lot! In terms of the page, I'm simply looking for * banner * three-column flexible layout for the main content * footer but I'm hoping that the page doesn't exhibit any strange behaviours when the page gets too small/content gets too bit, like DIVs overlapping each other or disappearing to the bottom of the page, and I'm even hoping that the layout can be content-first, nav-second in the source. You can definitely do some of that, but there are trade offs. sooner or later all such layouts will overlap or break. I was also hoping that the CSS can be relatively straightforward and not consist of 147 nested @import statements full of high-pass/low-pass filters and box model hack code etc. it's not all that necessary. I find the Tantek BM hack is really only necessary when you are obsessed with widths, down to the pixel level. Am I asking too much? I won't be trying to support Netscape 4, if that helps... Heaps ;-) I'm sure others will point out some great resources like http://positioniseverything.net/ http://www.bluerobot.com/ (getting long in tooth) and many others. Try Style master though. It's got a multi column layout wizard, and a fair number of two and three column layout templates you can reuse royalty and attribution free. http://www.westciv.com/style_master/ HTH john John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ :: WebEssentials Sept 2004 Sydney Australia :: http://www.we04.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] guide to CSS inheritance
John,
Seeing this email reminded me of something.
Yes, some CSS properties are inherited and some aren't.
Inheritance depends on *specificity*, which can be reduced to a
mathematical formula, as in this quote from the definitive O'Reilly
book by Eric Meyer, where it says:
H1 {color: red;}/* specificity = 1 */
P EM {color: purple;} /* specificity = 2 */
.grape {color: purple;} /* specificity = 10 */
P.bright {color: yellow;} /* specificity = 11 */
P.bright EM.dark {color: brown;}/* specificity = 22 */
#id216 {color: blue;} /* specificity = 100 */
which makes sense.
However, I know I've read an article also by Eric, which says that
those nice numbers which make so much sense at first glance are not in
base ten.
I'm sure it was in his own personal website, but I can't seem to find
it. I remember being puzzled by it at the time. If not base 10, then
what? Hex? So a specificity of 11 is actually seventeen? And 17 is
actually 23? Maybe I misinterpreted something?
I'd appreciate any light members could shed on this,
The numbers have no base at all (well, some very large one that may
change in future and is not really relevant)
See the specification for exact details
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/cascade.html#specificity
But in a nutshell, you calculate the specificity like this
Get the following four values
A: is it in a style attribute or not (A=1 in the former, A=0 in the
latter)
B =count the number of id attributes in the selector (note this is
only those of form #, not [id="somidvalue"])
C = count the number o other attributes and pseudo classes in the
selector
D = count he number of element names and pseudo elements in the
selector
Then Concatenate (don't add) A, B , C, D
So, if A=1, then we might have B=0, C=0, D=0 and the number would be
1000
and so on.
In essence, it doesn't really matter, because
1. if it is in a style attribute, (eg ) then it will
certainly be more specific than anything else
2. if it contains an id, (p#anID) it will be more specific than any
selector without an id, and so on.
hope this helps a bit,
john
:: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/
software, courses, resources for a standards based web
:: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/
:: WebEssentials Sept 2004 Sydney Australia :: http://www.we04.com
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**
Re: [WSG] guide to CSS inheritance
Neerav, Does anyone know of a definitive guide to CSS inheritance, hopefully including which tags inherit properties from other tags eg: inherits from its an interaction of HTML and CSS. Some properties in CSS are inherited, others are not. See the spec, or westciv's guide as to whether a specific property is inherited. Why are some not inherited? Imagine for a moment that margin was inherited. Say body had a 1em margin. Then all the children of the body would have a 1em margin, all the children of those children, and "so on ad infinitum". You can however, specify that a property be inherited in CSS, for any CSS property (if memory series me correctly, but there may be a small number of exceptions to that) As far as I am aware, the children of an element inherit all its inheritable properties. The proviso would be that where a property is restricted to say only block level elements, then its inline children would not inherit such properties. This bit is just unchecked conjecture. HTH, john John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ :: WebEssentials Sept 2004 Sydney Australia :: http://www.we04.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] HTML & CSS references
Hi, Westciv's "Complete CSS Guide" on CD is pretty useful, I believe its inexpensive (I got if for free as a door prize from a web essentials promo night) it's also free online here http://www.westciv.com/style_master/house/index.html along with many tutorials, articles, compatibility guides, and so on. Or you can purchase an enhanced version, and it comes free with Style Master. Plus come to the Web Essentials Free Education and Government Briefing http://we04.com/education.cfm Where you might win it as a door prize. 'nuff plugging :-) John John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ :: WebEssentials Sept 2004 Sydney Australia :: http://www.we04.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] web standards related rss feeds?
Neerav, I have recently become a fan of RSS feeds as an efficient way to trawl the net for interesting news and articles, and would appreciate knowing which web standards related rss feeds you read I agree 110%. RSS will change the way you use the web. Dog Or Higher is http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/index.rdf Maxine at westciv does Redemption Through Standards http://westciv.typepad.com/standards/index.rdf and you'll find a swag of great web development blogs in her blog roll john John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ :: WebEssentials Sept 2004 Sydney Australia :: http://www.we04.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
[WSG] something for your managers and clients
Hi all, if you'd like a taste of the kind of thing your boss or client will hear at the briefing next week http://we04.com/briefing.cfm then I've just posted "5 things you should ask your web development team" http://www.westciv.com/style_master/house/good_oil/5_questions/ index.html John John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ :: WebEssentials Sept 2004 Sydney Australia :: http://www.we04.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
Re: [WSG] Ten Questions for whomever
Cam and Russ, Can we do one of those interviews where I punch the camera, then you chase me to my car? As Russ will tell you that is likely to be my interview at present :-) John John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ :: WebEssentials Sept 2004 Sydney Australia :: http://www.we04.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
Re: [WSG] And now for something completely different :-)
Hugh, Anyone at Apple reading this? I'd imagine that if the web engine is already installed on Windows computers with iTunes (like all HP machines from June this year), all that would be needed would be a tiny download of a Safari GUI. (I imagine this because I'm not a programmer!) you are largely right it would be a small download, with the engine already installed this is probably getting a little OT :-/ but iTunes actually implements a lot of the Mac OS X UI on windows. If they were being strategic about this my guess is that they would wait until there were say 50 million installed iTunes, then go for it with that large installed user base. I am sure they have thought about it, just not sure what they do think about it. I am pretty sure what MS might think about it :-) john John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ :: webessentials Sept 30 - October 1 2004 Sydney Australia * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
[WSG] And now for something completely different :-)
Ok, something completely different but standards related. It's a rethink on about half of the presentation gave the the Sydney WSG meeting just before Christmas, and then at the first Melbourne WSG meeting a few weeks ago, http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/2004/05/plus_ca_change.html Hope people find it interesting, and feel free to spread the word :-) john John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ :: webessentials Sept 30 - October 1 2004 Sydney Australia * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
Re: [WSG] Tables are bad because...
Mark, On the whole it's a good read & I agree with a lot of what you are saying bit this section: But unfortunately an article like yours is not read by them in the spirit in which you intended, it is read as a vindication of their position. "See, Andy Budd agrees with me". So rather than seeing something like "at times, it may be necessary to use a non standards based approach to achieve an outcome within certain constraints, and that is ok" they see "all those standards zealots really don't know about the real world so everything they say can safely be ignored." Then Dave Shea, and Nick Bradbury and others weigh in nominally agreeing, making it all like its all so reasonable and realistic and essentially you reinforce the context of the discussion about web standards. ..kind of scared me a little. Could what you are saying be distilled into "Don't raise controversial & complicated issues in public because they might be misinterpreted by fools and used contrary to their original meaning"? That's how I'm reading it. There is an irony there that I am not entirely at liberty to discuss unfortunately. Probably the most important part of my response, certainly as I see it now is "don't buy into the bogus notion of the web standards community being beset with holier than thou attitudes, and zealotry." One of Andy's 10 questions answers reinforced this by the use of words like "fascist" (a fascist is a pretty nasty thing BTW) to describe some people (easily misunderstood as everyone) in the web standards community who might be overly zealous about whether or not a site validates. Not that I think even these creatures abound, and are certainly not part of the hard core of the web standards community. Andy, Dave & Nick's comments will most likely be misunderstood or misrepresented by some, but I imagine they are going to help others. Regardless of whether people agree or disagree its about getting people to think about the issue and that has to be a good thing. The problem is that all three, along with an increasing number of people who responded and replied to and wrote about the article used terms like "reasonable" and "balanced" and "objective" about it. But the article and its followups have rarely been any of these. It uses a lot of judgmental language (words like zealot, purist, demonize). However even this is beside the point. Andy has expressed an opinion, anyone and everyone is more than welcome to debate the ideas he's raised (as I know you have), but I thinks its rude to criticise the fact that he expressed the opinion in the first place. Argue the points but, please don't stifle the conversation itself. I think we all have a responsibility to consider the consequences of our actions and words. Andy has opened a can of worms with this article. Was it worth opening? The can is not so much people using or not tables, frankly that is pretty much irrelevant. Some people will, increasingly others won't. In 5 years time or less this will be as controversial as whether font tags should be deprecated. The can of worms for me is this growing meme that standards advocates and developers are zealots, purists, live in ivory towers, etc. etc. etc I think it is unwise for people of significant standing in the web development community to fuel those kinds of sentiments, even unwittingly. I'm not trying to pick a fight - I mean the above in the most respectful way. Mark, I guess I come across quite strongly, I tend not to beat about the bush. I certainly wasn't looking for a fight, but at the same time I was a bit cross with the subtext of the article. There are enough people out there waiting to beat up on standards advocates and the community. Let's not do it to ourselves. John John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ :: webessentials Sept 30 - October 1 2004 Sydney Australia * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
Re: [WSG] 'It Works in Gecko Browsers ...'
Mike, I may suggest you tip that on it's head. Dead serious. I build in IE then ensure I adjust accordingly. I know ahat will happen in the Geckos. Here is why that might not be an ideal solution. Unless you are exceedingly careful, you may well have something that "works" in IE because of bugs in IE you have consciously or unconsciously utilised. It can be a serious nightmare putting that back on track. Keep in mind too, that almost all the differences between and more standards compliant browsers are bugs in IE. Bugs get fixed. So you are guaranteeing that your code will break in the future. HTH John John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ :: webessentials Sept 30 - October 1 2004 Sydney Australia * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
[WSG] Tables redux
Hi all, just posted a response to this whole table thingy going on right now on my blog. http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/2004/05/the_right_tool_.html It's a parable. Thanks, john John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ :: webessentials Sept 30 - October 1 2004 Sydney Australia * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
Re: [WSG] XHTML/HTML
Tina, So does that mean if I put "XHTML 1.0 Transitional that any code that is of either HTML 4.0 or XHTML 1.0 will be accepted by validators? forgive me if some of this is a little introductory. A document type or DTD defines the syntax for an application of SGML (in the case of HTML, which is an application of SGML) or XML (xhtml is an application of XML). What does that mean? it means that a DTD defines what elements are part of the language, what attributes those elements can take, and some more arcane issues that aren't all that relevant here. xhtml 1.0 transitional was designed to include many of the aspects of HTML 4 that were planned to be phased out (these are referred to as deprecated elements or attributes). xhtml 1.0 strict does not include those attributes and elements. The idea was that it would be relatively easy to transition from HTML 4 to xhtml 1.0, because you would not need to remove deprecated elements and attribute from your code, merely transform your code into XML syntax (empty elements closed with a /> not a >, such as img elements, style elements and so on), element names in lower case, attribute values quoted, all optionally closed elements like p and li in HTML explicitly closed with or and some other stuff that you may not have to worry about. I see my validator is presently set at HTML 4.0 Transitional so I assume that means that the validator will accept anything between HTML 3.2 (which I believe is the version just prior to 4.0) or 4.0. Not quite. What it will accept is documents marked up in accordance with the HTML 4.0 Transitional doctype rules. These do not entirely conform to HTML 3.2 Hope this is in some ways useful John John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ :: webessentials Sept 30 - October 1 2004 Sydney Australia * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
Re: [WSG] Tables are bad because...
to something important, and like human rights, ethics, and other important things its not simply something we can cherry pick. At times it is hard. Trivial things are often easy. Non trivial things are often difficult. But usually vastly more rewarding. Keep fighting the good fight, john John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ :: webessentials Sept 30 - October 1 2004 Sydney Australia
Re: [WSG] Tables are bad because...
Mike et al. Sorry but there isn’t a place for sooner or later it'll cease working. Go to Andy's article, and try replacing the words "table" and "table layout" with "font tag". Works a treat, Sigh, John John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ :: webessentials Sept 30 - October 1 2004 Sydney Australia * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
Re: [WSG] APC magazine anti standards article
Thanks Kay and Hugh I am currently trying to pen a reasonable reply to Andy Budd's post this morning http://www.andybudd.com/archives/2004/05/ an_objective_look_at_table_based_vs_css_based_design/ sigh john John, http://www.apcmag.com/apc/v3.nsf/0/A569C81864DC4F1BCA256E5F001A59C5 (posted here on April 16 by Iparuan Martinez) -Hugh Todd anyone got a link to or can send me the text of that recent anti standards article mentioned here at APC? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ***** John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ :: webessentials Sept 30 - October 1 2004 Sydney Australia * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
[WSG] APC magazine anti standards article
Hi all, anyone got a link to or can send me the text of that recent anti standards article mentioned here at APC? Thanks, John John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ :: webessentials Sept 30 - October 1 2004 Sydney Australia * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
Re: [WSG] Design Philosophy
Alan and Dez, While John Allsopp does have some fairly strident views on web design* which make for good discussions, based on the criterion you set out in your first post, I think John would entirely agree, ie. I think strongly thought out and consistent would be a slightly better characterization :-) 1) Look good in standards compliant browsers. 2) Degrade gracefully in other browsers. 3) Are accessible to other devices absolutely. I think that John's main thesis, then as now, is about encouraging a more felxible way of viewing web design, one which harnesses the strengths of the medium. "A Dao of Web Design" written a year later is probably the most well articulated piece in this regard. That would b about my best summation of my philosophy I don't believe John holds the view that "we shouldn't care about how our web sites look as long as they use valid mark up language and separate content from presentation" and I certainly don't believe that to be the gist of the article you cited either. Absolutely. My main point is that designers can;t and shouldn't "control" their designs for the users, rather it is an inherit aspect of the web that users can adjust their environment to suit their needs/tastes, etc. That's just how it is. I guess we could just dump PNGs in a simple HTML page. The latest release of Style Master has some pretty good looking templates which I think shows an understanding of the value of good design. I love design and aesthetics. I have several pairs of campers! What I am arguing against is 1. controlling the user's experience (it's neither possible nor desirable) 2. reducing accessibility through so called "design" (*Since the Melbourne meeting where he articulated his views on image replacement, John has been promising to detail his positiont in writing, hint, hint...) I have since written a rather, erm. "strident" article that a well known online journal felt a little inflammatory. I am in the process of reworking it. These conferences and software chores just keep taking up my time :-) John BTW, what' wrong with idealism? :-) cheers dez Alan Milnes wrote: What articles are you referring to? Well there's quite a few but here's one where the basic idea is right but I find it just a tad idealistic:- http://www.westciv.com/style_master/house/good_oil/not_paper/ Alan * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help * John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ :: webessentials Sept 30 - October 1 2004 Sydney Australia * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
