Re: [WSG] data generator

2008-02-22 Thread Gary Menzel
I wasn't talking to you dwain.


On Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 3:39 PM, dwain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 target had something that just works and look what happened to them.
 wonder how they feel about accessibility now?  although it's not the end all
 and be all of web design and development, if you are wanting standards
 compliance then shouldn't go just part of the way, like microsoft does, to
 be standards compliant, that means being accessible to all.  we do have laws
 about that now, even for the web.  let's go to target.
 dwain

 On 2/22/08, Gary Menzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Yeah - our development team will definitely be using this.
 
  Sometimes accessibility is not all it is cracked up to be.  Sometime
  you just need something that works.
 
 
 
 
  On Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 3:00 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]@R KULEKCİ [EMAIL 
  PROTECTED]
  wrote:
 
   i think very good resource. thanks!
  
   2008/2/23, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  
This is pretty cool tool to generate volume of any kind of data (it
even
includes SQL options)
http://www.generatedata.com
   
--
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com
   
   
   
   
   
   
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 --
 dwain alford
 The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
 for his inner impulse must find suitable expression.  Kandinsky
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Re: [WSG] force download a media file

2007-06-13 Thread Gary Menzel

The choice on how to handle any MIME type is in the hands of the downloading
application and cannot be controlled by the source site.  If it was not for
this, it would be too easy for a site to infect any target operating
system with malicious intent.

Regards,
Gary

[that is - if you find a way to do it, it is a fault in the browser]


On 6/13/07, SJL [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Hi all,

I have this problem where i want to force download and mp3 and mp4 format
file, but by default the browsers are handling it.
I actually want the save as window to appear and give the choice to the
viewer.

I have goggled and tried a lot of them, but nothing worked, as my server
doesnt support asp/php.

can it be done using javascript/ajax?

Kindly advice.

Thanks and regards,
Sijo Louis

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Re: [WSG] force download a media file

2007-06-13 Thread Gary Menzel

In regard to content-disposition

The following RFC states (very late in the text in the section on
Security)

  In general, the receiving MUA should not name or place the file such
  that it will get interpreted or executed without the user explicitly
  initiating the action.

http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2183.txt

So - while it may seem like content-disposition is an answer, a well
behaved MIME-type interpreter should still ask the user what they want to
do with the file.  So, this still does not (or at least should not) allow an
MP3 (or any other file) to be run or executed without the users
intervention.  At minimum, the behaviour for content-disposition is not
guaranteed.

In fact, some browsers continue to be naughty in that they actually
DOWNLOAD the file first (to some temporary location), then fire up an
appropriate application to handle the MIME type against the downloaded file
rather than running the handling application as a plug-in (freestanding or
embedded) and passing it the address/URL of the resource to process.

Regards,
Gary


On 6/13/07, C. Bergström [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Lea de Groot wrote:
 On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 15:40:39 +0530, SJL wrote:

 I have this problem where i want to force download and mp3 and mp4
 format file, but by default the browsers are handling it.
 I actually want the save as window to appear and give the choice to
 the viewer.


 Zipping the file is the only way I know of to ensure a download.

Have you tried adding a header with something similar to below..

Response.AppendHeader(Content-Disposition,attachment; filename=\ +
strFileToDownload + \);
Response.ContentType = audio/mpeg;

./C


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Re: [WSG] force download a media file

2007-06-13 Thread Gary Menzel

And I forgot to add...

By the time you could execute Javascript (and that would not be possible
once the MIME type has been specified) the browser would have already
decided what to do with the content (NOTE: I cannot see how you could
execute any JS once you were outside of the HTML MIME type).

Regards,
Gary


On 6/13/07, Gary Menzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


In regard to content-disposition

The following RFC states (very late in the text in the section on
Security)

   In general, the receiving MUA should not name or place the file such

   that it will get interpreted or executed without the user explicitly
   initiating the action.

http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2183.txt

So - while it may seem like content-disposition is an answer, a well
behaved MIME-type interpreter should still ask the user what they want to
do with the file.  So, this still does not (or at least should not) allow an
MP3 (or any other file) to be run or executed without the users
intervention.  At minimum, the behaviour for content-disposition is not
guaranteed.

In fact, some browsers continue to be naughty in that they actually
DOWNLOAD the file first (to some temporary location), then fire up an
appropriate application to handle the MIME type against the downloaded file
rather than running the handling application as a plug-in (freestanding or
embedded) and passing it the address/URL of the resource to process.

Regards,
Gary


On 6/13/07, C. Bergström [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Lea de Groot wrote:
  On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 15:40:39 +0530, SJL wrote:
 
  I have this problem where i want to force download and mp3 and mp4
  format file, but by default the browsers are handling it.
  I actually want the save as window to appear and give the choice to

  the viewer.
 
 
  Zipping the file is the only way I know of to ensure a download.
 
 Have you tried adding a header with something similar to below..

 Response.AppendHeader (Content-Disposition,attachment; filename=\ +
 strFileToDownload + \);
 Response.ContentType = audio/mpeg;

 ./C


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Re: [WSG] position fixed on the thead

2005-11-07 Thread Gary Menzel
We are using the fixed THEAD/TFOOT extensively and dont have any problems with it.

I also applied the concept to fixing a left hand section - which also worked.

Yes, and while it uses a DIV wrapped around the table (and the fixed sections are anchored to that DIV) it provides the very familiar behaviour the people expect from a table with very minimal CSS.

Is it standard across all browsers? Don't know, don't care. We are only using it in a controlled environment.

Regards,
Gary
On 11/8/05, Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ted Drake said: I'd like to keep the thead fixed and let the remainder of the rows scroll underneath it.
I looked around for a solution to this recently. Most solutions rely onwrapping parts of the table in divs and positioning those, and that justdidn't appeal to me.I did find this one, which is valid but haven't used it:
http://www.imaputz.com/cssStuff/bulletVersion.htmlkind regardsTerrence Wood.**
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Re: [WSG] position fixed on the thead

2005-11-07 Thread Gary Menzel
I will have to wait until I am work and find the reference.

The solution actually ensures that the head and foot still look like they are part of the table. I.E. the scroll bar still sits alongside the head and foot. I.E. it looks like a real listbox.

Gary
On 11/8/05, Ted Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Hi Gary
Could you send a sample url?

I have come across some jscript solutions. I've been told that the caption doesn't play nicely with overflow:scroll on the tbody. But I haven't tested it yet.


Thanks
Ted






From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
On Behalf Of Gary MenzelSent: Monday, November 07, 2005 3:51 PMTo: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] position fixed on the thead



We are using the fixed THEAD/TFOOT extensively and dont have any problems with it.



I also applied the concept to fixing a left hand section - which also worked.



Yes, and while it uses a DIV wrapped around the table (and the fixed sections are anchored to that DIV) it provides the very familiar behaviour the people expect from a table with very minimal CSS.




Is it standard across all browsers? Don't know, don't care. We are only using it in a controlled environment.



Regards,

Gary

On 11/8/05, Terrence Wood 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
Ted Drake said: I'd like to keep the thead fixed and let the remainder of the rows scroll underneath it. 
I looked around for a solution to this recently. Most solutions rely onwrapping parts of the table in divs and positioning those, and that justdidn't appeal to me.I did find this one, which is valid but haven't used it: 
http://www.imaputz.com/cssStuff/bulletVersion.htmlkind regardsTerrence Wood.
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Re: [WSG] nowrap: nowrap

2005-10-26 Thread Gary Menzel

maybe try..

white-space: nowrap



On 10/27/05, CHAUDHRY, Bhuvnesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hi,

Is there any way to specify anowrapfor content ofa Table Header or a Table Cell ? I have tried 
nowrap: nowrap; but it doesn't work.

Any ideas?

Thanks

Bhuvnesh Chaudhry
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Re: [WSG] The Big Lie about CSS

2005-09-18 Thread Gary Menzel
Browser DO go back out and update files (according to the policy set by either a network admin or the user - which may mean NEVER).

BUT - the biggest problem is all the Proxy Servers inbetween the user and the site.

You cannot always gaurantee that the policy on the proxy is set correctly (or if it even works).

There are proxies out there that ignore the request to refresh objects. Then you are stuffed. We have experienced this before.
On 9/19/05, Jake Badger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
That might be an issue if you're changing the stylesheet all the time(although even then browsers should still update the cached file if
it's changed) but generally people are talking about updating itinfrequently and irregularly. In that case it might take a while tofilter down to everyone's cached stylesheet but it's not going to be amajor problem. I know if I see a site with what looks like bad
stylesheet I'm going to refresh which will generally fix the problem.JakeOn 19/9/2005, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:I was thinking this morning that we constantly tell people two thingsabout CSS, as in this wonderful presentation:
http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/ (pages 9 and 10)we tell them a) it's more efficient because the style sheet only gets downloaded once!and then we tell them
 b) you can reformat your whole site just by changing the CSS file!and what, we just hope nobody notices that they contradict each other?In other words, what do you do to ensure that your newly-updated
stylesheet isn't cached? In the past, I've resorted to doing this: !--#include virtual=link-rel.txt --where link-rel.txt contains link rel=stylesheet href=""
09-18.css type=text/cssso that when changes are made, I can just change the include to referto 2005-09-19.css and be sure there's no caching going on. Or, inthe case of a major browser-hanging bug, 
2005-09-19-11-15AM.css ...Have You Validated Your Code?John Horner(+612 / 02) 8333 3488
Developer, ABC Kids Onlinehttp://www.abc.net.au/**
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Re: [WSG] Content that jumps

2005-09-15 Thread Gary Menzel
There is nothing to see.

I am on IE 6 and get a blank page with the following HTML in it.

!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//ENHTMLHEADMETA http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=utf-8/HEADBODY/BODY/HTML

And. it takes AGES to come back with that response.

On 9/16/05, Taco Fleur - Pacific Fox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

The content has stopped jumping, haven't changed anything in the structure.
Has anyone seen anything like this before?


Taco Fleur - Pacific Foxan industry leader with commercial IT experience since 1994 …
http://www.pacificfox.com


-Original Message-From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Taco Fleur - Pacific Fox
Sent: Friday, 16 September 2005 11:25 AMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject:
 [WSG] Content that jumps
Hi all,

I have this page with 3 columns, for some reason the divs jump when the page is loaded.
I checked if the HTML is valid, and it is.

Anybody any idea on this?

http://testing.icanmls.pacificfox.com 


I am looking at it in IE6 by the way.

Thanks,

Taco Fleur - Pacific Foxan industry leader with commercial IT experience since 1994 …
http://www.pacificfox.com



Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy

2005-08-15 Thread Gary Menzel
There is a flip-side to the no new window recommendation..

Many of our users are very computer illiterate and giving them too many options confuses them.

We do open our PDF documents in a new window and never have any complaints about it.

We DO get complaints, though, when things are too hard to use or if the page they were on disappars because we opened a document in that same window or if the file downloaded and they can't find it (happened regularly before we launched the PDF in another window).


We also get complaints from Mac users for similar reasons (because, apparently, the default behaviours that have sometimes been set up always just download files to one place and dont give the user an option of saying where they want the file - and then they can't find it).


I'm all for web-standards - but when a user base clearly has problems in dealing with a move to a standard then I would prefer to cater for my user base over the standard. There are always exceptions to every rule.


Regards,
Gary

On 8/16/05, Damian Sweeney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Ted,I would say let the user decide. Wherever possible I try to provide enoughinformation in the link itself so that the user knows what to expect and
can proceed as they wish. Many people will set up their browser to dealwith different file types according to their preference (open the documentin the browser, open it in the application, download the file). Opening in
a new window removes user choice. By providing a plain link you give usersthe option that you use of `right-click - open in new window`. How do Ichoose to open a new-window-link in the current window if that is my
preference?The only time I open links (to web pages) in a new window is when I haveto place a link inside someone else's frame and I warn the user that I'mdoing it. I wouldn't use a new window for the downloadable documents you
are referring to.Unexpected pdfs are annoying, especially for low-bandwidth users. So, Iwould recommend something like:a href="" stuff (pdf format, 200kb)/a
Include all the info in the link, if you can, for people who only read thelinks.Cheers,Damian Hi All We've had a discussion at work about pdf documents and hijacking the
user's browser / making it more user-friendly.What is the general feelingtowards having pdf and other non-html documents open in a new window?--Damian SweeneyLearning Skills Adviser (online)
Language and Learning Skills UnitInstructional Designer, AIRport ProjectEquity, Language and Learning ProgramsUniversity of Melbourne723 Swanston StParkville 3010
www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/airport.unimelb.edu.au/ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039
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Re: [WSG] alphabetic horizontal list problem

2005-07-22 Thread Gary Menzel
If the list is a ul/ul based list you should be able to float the ul right.

If that is giving problems then you might need to wrap a div around it and float the div right.

The following code uses a bit of JS to make getting the list easier, but has a floated right ul (with appropriate inline style on the li) and seems to work correctly...



htmlheadstylebody{font: 10pt 'Lucida Grande',Arial,Tahoma,Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif;}#index1{float: right;}#index1 li
{display: inline;margin-left: 3px;margin-right: 3px;}/style
/head
body
ul id=index1scriptvar alphabet = ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ;for(i=0;i26;i++){document.write(li+alphabet.substr(i,1)+/li);
}/script/ul
/body/html




Regards,
Gary

On 7/22/05, Stephanie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I need to create an alphabetic horizontal list to link to content on a page - problem I am having is that I want to float the list right but when I do that the alphabetic list is ordered from Z - A instead of A - Z.


Any clue as to how to solve this problem?

Stephanie Champion




Re: [WSG] 2 ?'s

2005-07-22 Thread Gary Menzel
Got an error on that page.

You appear to be missing the ##'s around expandPath.






Could not find the included template expandPath(header.cfm). 

Note: If you wish to use an absolute template path (e.g. TEMPLATE=/mypath/index.cfm) with CFINCLUDE then you must create a mapping for the path using the ColdFusion Administrator. Using relative paths (
e.g. TEMPLATE=index.cfm or TEMPLATE=../index.cfm) does not require the creation of any special mappings. It is therefore recommended that you use relative paths with CFINCLUDE whenever possible. 




The error occurred in /vservers/thehatchflys/htdocs/controls/template.cfm: line 12

10 : /cfsilent
11 : !--- include application header ---
12 : cfinclude template=expandPath(header.cfm)
13 : !--- include application navigation ---
14 : cfinclude template=navigation.cfm





On 7/23/05, csslist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
thanks! thats the best one i have seen so far.the only 2 i have tested so far that aren't so good is on ie mac it floats up near top and on pc opera 8 it's kinda funky.
seems to have even fixed my 1 px left float on safari for the header whoo hoo.another problem is the menu on pc ie6 has too big of spaces, any suggestion on that or any of it?
http://www.thehatchflyshop.com/controls/template.cfmbtw~ i'm not charging the client for cssp, just going so it doesnt have to be perfect ;)thanks


From: Rick Faaberg [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 10:31 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] 2 ?'sOn 7/22/05 7:10 PM csslist sent this out:
 anyone have a good linnk to a tut or other about footers and always having them at bottom under the content.This was on this list recently:--- quotingLooks like someone has found a mostly-reliable CSS-only solution to
that common footer problem - getting a footer to stick to the bottomof the viewport no matter how long or short the content is, whichdoesn't overlap the content when the window is resized:Explanation: 
Example: 
--- end quotingSeems to work in Safari and degrades okay in IE Mac.Hth,Rick Faaberg**
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Re: [WSG] 2 ?'s

2005-07-22 Thread Gary Menzel
Remove all the whitespace between each set of the li/li tags. That will make IE behave.

i.e: no whitespace inbetween the sets of tags.

lia href="" href="" service/a/lilia href="" href="" album/a/lilia href="" href="" us/a/lilia href="" href="" href="" board/a/li


This same problem happenes if you create a display:inline li item - it renders one white space if there are any.
Regards,
Gary

On 7/23/05, csslist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
yeah, try it again, i was trying to get around a w3c error saying it couldnt find the closing body tag but its there.
cutting up the page into header, nav and footer sections, when u do that the validator takes a crap

From: Gary Menzel [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 1:26 AM 
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject
: Re: [WSG] 2 ?'s

Got an error on that page.

You appear to be missing the ##'s around expandPath.






Could not find the included template expandPath(header.cfm). 

Note: If you wish to use an absolute template path (e.g. TEMPLATE=/mypath/index.cfm) with CFINCLUDE then you must create a mapping for the path using the ColdFusion Administrator. Using relative paths ( 
e.g. TEMPLATE=index.cfm or TEMPLATE=../index.cfm) does not require the creation of any special mappings. It is therefore recommended that you use relative paths with CFINCLUDE whenever possible. 




The error occurred in /vservers/thehatchflys/htdocs/controls/template.cfm: line 12


10 : /cfsilent11 : !--- include application header ---12 : cfinclude template=expandPath(header.cfm) 13 : !--- include application navigation --- 14 : cfinclude template=
navigation.cfm 




On 7/23/05, csslist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
thanks! thats the best one i have seen so far.the only 2 i have tested so far that aren't so good is on ie mac it floats up near top and on pc opera 8 it's kinda funky. 
seems to have even fixed my 1 px left float on safari for the header whoo hoo.another problem is the menu on pc ie6 has too big of spaces, any suggestion on that or any of it?
http://www.thehatchflyshop.com/controls/template.cfmbtw~ i'm not charging the client for cssp, just going so it doesnt have to be perfect ;)thanks


From: Rick Faaberg [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 10:31 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] 2 ?'sOn 7/22/05 7:10 PM csslist sent this out: 
 anyone have a good linnk to a tut or other about footers and always having them at bottom under the content.This was on this list recently:--- quotingLooks like someone has found a mostly-reliable CSS-only solution to 
that common footer problem - getting a footer to stick to the bottomof the viewport no matter how long or short the content is, whichdoesn't overlap the content when the window is resized:Explanation: 
Example: 
--- end quotingSeems to work in Safari and degrades okay in IE Mac.Hth,Rick Faaberg** The discussion list for 
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Re: [WSG] using scalable vector graphics

2005-07-17 Thread Gary Menzel
Browsers that dont support SVG natively require some type of embed tag.

On 7/18/05, Joshua Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Mon, 2005-07-18 at 13:39 +1000, Joshua Street wrote: svg xmlns=
http://www.w3.org/2000/svg version=1.0 rect stroke=black fill=none rx=5px y=16px x=72px width=202px height=61px/
 /svgErr, of course, it closed the /svg tag properly... oops.Josh**The discussion list for
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Re: [WSG] Will HTML be nicer to PHP than XHTML?

2005-06-27 Thread Gary Menzel
My 2c worth.

I can't see how any scripting language would be considered more or less XHTML friendly than any other scripting language. Once you move to a scripting language and not to just a plain text file with markup in it, you have to use the language to generate the markup. The markup is just strings. The scripting language knows absolutely nothing about the markup language itself (other than what people tell it - 
i.e. additional libraries or functions to make some of the generation easier).

So my call would be that PHP is no more ideally suited (or otherwise) to any particular markup language that is text based (e.g. TEX, ROFF, HTML, XHTML, XML, etc. etc.).

Similarly with MySQL as a content manager - markup is just text, store it in a text field in any database and it will all work (assuming you adhere to any character escaping that the databases language requires).


Regards,Gary

On 6/28/05, Roberto Gorjão [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Olá a todos!I've read Ian Hickson and Stuart Langridge objections to the use ofXHTML without serving it as application/xhtml+xml. I also read the
article "WaSP Asks the W3C"(http://www.webstandards.org/learn/askw3c/sep2003.html) and I decidedthat I sure am not going to create two versions of my sites just for the
sake of serving XHTML as it should to browsers which can understand it,as suggested at the W3C tutorial about "Content-Negotiation"(http://www.w3.org/2003/01/xhtml-mimetype/content-negotiation
).Anyway, I noticed that many of you use XHTML and I sure was beginning toenjoy using it myself, and it seemed to me a good way to practice forthe inevitable future… is it? I mean: a good way to practice, as I
believe that XML is the inevitable future… I'm initiating now my studyon PHP and MySQL and I read some objections about using XHTML with PHP…Will XHTML interfere with my learning of PHP? Would it be a good idea to
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Re: [WSG] Semantic tag for copyright slug?

2005-05-01 Thread Gary Menzel
Of course, with XHTML, you can actually define your own tags (includingcopyright /, trademark /, flyingpigs /).

And don't forget namespaces as well (fairytales:flyingpigs /)

flyingpigs
It'll be nice when all browsers behave and play together in the same playground.
/flyingpigs
signatureGary Menzel/signature

PS
[Is it FLEX?, is it XAML?, NO- it's.. JAML - _javascript_ Application Markup Language (watch this space)]
/PS

On 5/1/05, Cole Kuryakin - x7m [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
James -Thanks for the reply as well as the clarification about the Label tag. I'llcontinue using p's for copyright info.
Cole- Original Message -From: James Ellis [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 1:02 PMSubject: Re: [WSG] Semantic tag for copyright slug? Hi Cole Label is a form field tag... it can't be used outside of a form. (well it can but you'll have invalid html according to the w3c)
 http://htmlhelp.com/reference/html40/forms/label.html The issue here is how far you go with your semantics. Do we have a tag
 for trademark, registered mark, service mark?. To all intents and purposes it's a paragraph or phrase of text on the page. Cheers James On 4/30/05, Cole Kuryakin - x7m 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   This maybe taking the whole semantic thing too far, but is there a  copywright tag (not the Meta Tag) that one should use for copyright
  information?   I've searched the web, but can't find one defined other than the metatag.   The use for this would be - frequenlty for my projects - in the footer,
  where you say Copyright 2005 - some company, inc. all rights reserved.   That kind of thing.   I've been enclosing this kind of information in p/p tags for years,
but  am just wondering if there's a more semantically-appropriate tag touse -  like label/label maybe?   Cole **
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Re: [WSG] To Table or Not To Table for Forms

2005-04-30 Thread Gary Menzel
There is nothing about a form tag that makes it tabular. Many form's just dont fit into neat columns and rows. These days I code elements firstly so they are semantically correct. Then I use CSS to attempt to lay them out as best as I can (with what I know and what I can teach myself from all the online resources). And, as the other parts of this thread show, you can do a HELL of a lot with CSS to layout semantically created forms. After that I will look too using the smallest amounts of _javascript_ to tweak things at runtime. Then (and this is usually when what I am building is an application that just happens to use a browser) I will go to using larger amounts of _javascript_ - but then I am usually in control of the end platform and can restrict the browser appropriately (be it IE or Firefox - for example).


The data that is collected by a form tag may have a consistent schema to it (such as name, address, phone) which is stored in a database as a collection of like objects (what we usually call a table) - but even that does not justify a form as being tabular data.


What constitutes tabular data is when you want to display such a collection of like objects (which may or may not come from a database table) in a manner that can be considered, semantically, tabular. Or when you clearly are working with items that semantically are a grid (
e.g. a spreadhseet, or a even a complex report of some kind).

We (and I do it too - but I think it is very lazy) have always just thought of forms on the web as just being a set of labels and fields rolling down the screen (because that was all that was ever possible). Whereas the print world (and just about everyone else) things of forms as information placed as clumps on the page that make sense to be grouped together. So we should be embracing that view now that we have CSS to help us lay things out (although it is still not perfect).


Semantically (i.e. the meaning attached to the tag actually representing what the tag is actually doing) a form is exactly that (something that contains tags that will collect data). This then generally implies that you would find label (something to give the user feedback on what information was being requested) and input/select/textarea (places to put the data - my own personal opinion being that we should only have an input tag with attributes to tell it how to behave OR that the input tag should only be for text and not for type=radio or type=checbox as these are semantically different elements). That said, the next question may be What about tabular data that you want to input as a result of a parent/child relationship?. My answer to that is that HTML/XHTML is lackingany suitable construct to achieve this (
i.e. there needs to be some type of tabular entry element in the specification that allows such data entry for a form). So, in this case, (i.e. to visually layout some fields in a form that need to accept data in a tabular way - yes it is a table).


And, with all that said, it's only just my opinion (gleaned from all the available information on the semantic approach to markup).

But, when the chips are down and you have to deliver, you do what works.

Regards,
Gary Menzel


On 5/1/05, Cole Kuryakin - x7m [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I've been wondering the same thing as Tee -

whether to use the table for form or not, still can't make up my mind.

I've been using tables for my forms just because it's fast and easy to align stuff - like a horizontal double or triple-column input design or even putting a text label AFTERa check box or radio button - but I don't want to take the fast way out if using tables for my forms is not adhearing to the spirit of web standards or accessibility.


I have read elsewhere that using tables for form elements is permissable as it's considered tabular data.

I'm interested in the group's overall opinion on this subject.

Cole


Re: [WSG] Site Review Please

2005-03-02 Thread Gary Menzel
Standards advice is free.

But I charge for site reviews.


On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 04:52:55 -0500, Levi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 No replied after 13 days... yeesh. Was it that bad or that good? no
 comments at all? worked perfect on everyone's computer/browsers?
 
 here is the url again: http://ffxi.anime-madness.com
 
 -levi
 
 On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:36:17 -0500, Levi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Howdy, I've been coming signed up only a few weeks here and have read
  only two dozen or so topics, mainly because I've been working on a new site
  and have had midterms to study for (UCF student in Orlando). The site was
  completed on the 11th though I am still working on backend PHP 
  functionality.
 
  If some of you professionals could run it through the gauntlet, that
  would probably
  helpful to me (I find it hard to get rid of the if they don't use
  IE6.x or Firefox, screw
  them anyway, my sites aren't selling anything mentality).
 
  Two pages wont show up as XHTML Transitional complaint because they are 
  using
  Flash (I've only seen one solution to making compliant html flash
  implementation
  and I disliked the drawbacks of not being able to inform the user to
  upgrade their Flash
  if they are using an old version).
 
  Thanks for any replies.
 
  http://ffxi.anime-madness.com
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Re: [WSG] GMail... Terrible!

2005-02-14 Thread Gary Menzel
My opinion.

Dont use it if it doesnt work for you.

While I am all for webstandards, there is nothing that says people
HAVE to produce a program that works in a particular way.  And while
there are accessibility standards - there is NOTHING stopping someone
with accessibility issues from using the comptetition (such as Yahoo
or Hotmail).

And while there is plenty of noise about court cases from people who
have been disadvantaged by people not adhering to accessibility
guidelines, you would find that if there are suitable alternatives for
people to use that such cases dont hold water.

No-one is forcing people to use GMail (or even your website - for that matter).

The biggest problem is for businesses who have clients who cannot use
a site because it is not accessible (especially if the business
expects all clients to deal with it through the website).

So.. GMail. if it works for you - use it - if it doesn't -
then use something else.


Regards,
Gary Menzel



On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:09:14 +1100, Chris Stratford
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 James Bennett wrote:
 
 For figuring out the structure of a Gmail page I've found the best
 method is to use Mozilla's DOM Inspector; it lets you pick through all
 of the framesets and hidden DIVs to figure out what's actually going
 on.
 
 Yesh thats what I used to get that deep.
 But the DOM inspector doesnt seem to nest below the second or third
 iframe. (i cant remember).
 
 Thanks for the link :)
 
 damn gmail:S
 
 --
 
 Chris Stratford
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www.neester.com
 
 
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Re: [WSG] GMail... Terrible!

2005-02-14 Thread Gary Menzel
I'll repeat myself - just so that people know I am serious about this..

There are plenty of accesible free webmail clients available.

Explan to me why GMail has to make it's product accessible to everyone?

And quoting the laws about discrimination wont cut it.  They have the
right to shoot themselves in the foot and lose all the users who can't
access their FREE site because of all the other alternatives.

Now - if they had a monopoly on free webmail sites - it would be a
different story.  But they dont.  In fact, they are a late-comer to
the marketplace and may have a great deal of difficulty in gaining
market share.  Tough luck to GMail if they lose any or all of that
share because their product is not able to meet everyones needs.

Now.. the GOOGLE site is a different story - because they DO have
somewhat of a monopoly.  Although there are many search sites, very
few provide the same functionality in terms of the accuracy of
searching as their site does.  That one HAS to be accessible or they
are actually denying someone the unique features of that product.

So - build more ramps on more buildings - they need to be accessible.

But there are plenty of free webmail clients out there.  Lets leave
GMail alone so we ALL get some choice.


Regards,
Gary Menzel



On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:40:57 +1100, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  -Original Message-
  From: Gary Menzel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Tuesday, 15 February 2005 3:28 PM
  To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
  Subject: Re: [WSG] GMail... Terrible!
 
  My opinion.
 
  Dont use it if it doesnt work for you.
 
  While I am all for webstandards, there is nothing that says people
  HAVE to produce a program that works in a particular way.  And while
  there are accessibility standards - there is NOTHING stopping someone
  with accessibility issues from using the comptetition (such as Yahoo
  or Hotmail).
 
 That's the right attitude! While we're at it: why do we still bother with
 these useless ramps infront of public libraries? There are enough buildings
 around that have got wheelchair access for those people that need it. So
 let's do something more aesthetically charming with stairs or, even better,
 a climbing wall!
 
 Woohoo! Here comes the 21st century. Progress at its best.
 
 
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Re: [WSG] Heading without line break

2005-01-24 Thread Gary Menzel
Have you tried changing the DISPLAY style to INLINE instead of BLOCK ?

Gary



On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 12:31:15 +1100, Ryan Sabir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Heya?
 
 How would I tell a stylesheet to not put a line break at the end of an
 Hx tag?
 
 e.g.
 h3My heading/h3 and some more text.
 
 I want the words and some more text. to appear on the same line.
 
 How would I do this?
 
 thanks, bye!
 
 ---
 Ryan Sabir
 Newgency Pty Ltd
 2a Broughton St
 Paddington 2021
 Sydney, Australia
 Ph (02) 9331 2133
 Fax (02) 9331 5199
 Mobile: 0411 512 454
 http://www.newgency.com/index.cfm?referer=rysig
 
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Re: [WSG] CSS alignment issues

2004-12-26 Thread Gary Menzel
Just a note.

The a two page article link takes you to a subscription page for the
NY Times.  I didn't subscribe - just because I usually dont subscribe
to things like that just to read a link from another page.  So it
could become counter-productive to the argument (even though it is not
really Firefox's fault).

Just a suggestion.

Regards,
Gary


On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 01:19:56 +1100, Tatham Oddie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Bob,
 Thanks for your help here... I now finally have the page working how I want.
 As for making the whole world FF-users, if you visit my site from any other
 browser soon you will be redireted via this page:
http://www.e-oddie.com/sydneylife/GetFirefox.aspx
 Hopefully that should get some more users switching.
 
 Thanks again,
 Tatham
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of designer
 Sent: Sunday, 26 December 2004 11:32 PM
 To: webstandards group
 Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS alignment issues
 
 Hi Tatham,
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Tatham Oddie [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org; 'designer'
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 12:03 PM
 Subject: RE: [WSG] CSS alignment issues
 
  Bob,
  I really didn't want to use a table - otherwise I would have been able to
  say that there isn't a single table in the whole site. Now I'll just have
 to
  talk about the sub-sites... Grr.
  Anyway, the code was a bit more complex than you posted as I had to center
  vertically the text and the block.
  I've updated the verion on http://www.e-oddie.com/ which works in IE, but
  not FF. I just can't seem to make that work. Must be having a complete
  blinder today - as I used to do everything with tables.
  Anyway, I'm telling all my users to get Firefox and I'm a Firefox user so
 I
  need to work out this prob.
  Any ideas?
 
  Thanks,
  Tatham
 ---
 
 After writing to you, I thought I'd better check out what I'd said [ :-) ]
 so I knocked up this:
 
 http://www.marscovista.fsnet.co.uk/gwelanmor/middle/centering.html
 
 You can see how I've applied some 'content' with a background and some text,
 the latter positioned with margins.  The CSS is embedded, for simplicity.
 It works in FF, IE6, IE5.5, Opera  . . .
 
 Until all the world becomes FF :-),  there emare/em times when you just
 HAVE to use a table, albeit a tiny one . . .
 
 HTH a bit more.
 
 Bob McClelland,
 Cornwall (U.K.)
 www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
 
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Re: [WSG] an even more amazing css zen garden entry

2004-12-24 Thread Gary Menzel
Russ.

You left out vomit appeal!

Gary

[PS - however, it does show that you can do ANYTHING with the CSS Zen
Garden approach]


On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 08:11:06 +1100, Michael Kear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 More proof that good/bad design is nothing whatever to do with
 tools/code/software, and everything to do with the designer's mind.
 
 Merry Christmas everyone!
 
 Mike Kear
 Windsor, NSW, Australia
 Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer
 AFP Webworks
 http://afpwebworks.com
 Business Strength ColdFusion,PHP,ASP,ASP.NET hosting from $15/Month
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of russ - maxdesign
 Sent: Saturday, 25 December 2004 1:38 AM
 To: Web Standards Group
 Subject: [WSG] an even more amazing css zen garden entry
 
 Now there were some people on-list who thought the last Zen Garden entry I
 posted lacked a certain wow factor. Well, how about this entry which seems
 to have it all... Style... Class... Wow... and lots of animation!
 
 http://brucelawson.co.uk/zengarden.htm
 
 :)
 Russ
 
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[ADMIN] Thread Closed - Re: [WSG] HOW DO I KNOW THAT MY HTML FILE HEADER IS BEING SENT CORRECTLY?

2004-12-21 Thread Gary Menzel
PERL questions should be directed to a PERL list as PERL is a
scripting language and NOT a web standard.

This is in accordance with the guidelines of the WSG email list.

If you have the answer to this question, please reply OFF LIST to the sender.


Regards,
Gary Menzel
(for WSG CORE)


On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 08:38:55 -, Charles Slack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi,
 This is probably a really easy one. 
 I am just setting myself up to try Perl scripting. My first job is to set
 the Character Set and MIME Type to be sent in the header. 
 What test should I carry out to make sure that the header is correct?
 Regards,
  
 Charlie
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Re: [WSG] Tables inside a div

2004-12-21 Thread Gary Menzel
Just remember - as far as I have found - if you dont set the width on
the DIV then the DIV will size to whatever the content is.

If you dont have a width on the DIV and say the TABLE is 90% - what
will it be 90% of?  The closest bounding ancestor area that has a
width - which will be the body tag (actually the window object -
which is where the body tag gets it dimensions from)..

. or something close to that.

It you make the DIV 400px wide - then the TABLE will be 90% of that. 
Or if the DIV is wedged between two other DIVs (like a three column
layout) the TABLE will be 90% of whatever is available in that area. 
Unless the right and left columns are also somehow sizing
automatically.

There are some dodgy exceptions to this that often mean that if you
want a table to fill the available area you use 99% instead of 100%
(browser bugs).


Regards,
Gary
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Re: [WSG] rationalising my refusal to support IE/NS4

2004-12-20 Thread Gary Menzel
That all sounds good to me.  You dont want to say too much - only
focus on the big things - because otherwise they will get suspicious
and ask you to explain in more detail (which, of course, they will
understand even less).

And I know what you mean about a Week of Friday Afternoons.

I - for one - will be glad when Christmas is over and things get back
to normal again.

Regards,
Gary



On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 14:43:22 +0800, Kay Smoljak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi guys,
 
 I have a requirements document here that I'm quoting for, that
 mentions that the web site should be optimised for IE4 and Netscape 4.
 Now, I'm not really blaming the client here - they obviously have no
 idea what it is they're asking and have probably based it off quote
 they got to do their site in 1999. However, I would like to educate
 them on why supporting these dinosaurs is not a good idea.
 
 I have added my standard blurb about cross-browser and cross-platform
 support, including that older browsers will receive a plain 'unstyled
 text' version of the site, which will still allow all content to be
 fully accessed. What I then want to say is that Fully supporting
 version 4 browsers (which are now nearly 8 years old) is possible,
 however extra construction and testing time will be required. We would
 not recommend supporting fully these browsers, as the visual design
 possibilities will be limited, the accessibility of the site lessened,
 and download time increased.
 
 I'm feeling like this whole week is one big Friday afternoon, and that
 somehow sounds rather lame. Can anyone recommend any other reasons or
 throw in some kick-arse buzzwords to make me look good?
 
 --
 Kay Smoljak
 http://kay.smoljak.com/
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Re: [WSG] Semantic Mark-Up for Product Catalog

2004-12-17 Thread Gary Menzel
Yes both are viable.

I would use the dl when I was expecting to have a few per page
type layout that would be more like a brochure layout.

I would use the table when what I wanted was - you guessed it - a
table layout.

My own personal guideline for table VS anything else is simply
asking myself the question Is this a table?.  If the answer is Yes
then I use a table.  Otherwise I use an appropriate tag.

In the case of a set of products (or similar, Contacts, Events, News,
in fact mostly any single entity that you may have a collection of
with a name) I regularly use dl because you can say all of those
have a This generic term (e.g. Product Name) equates to this specific
instance (e.g. CSS Stylesheet Editor) relationship.  That is - this
equals that.  (Which is basically what a definition list is
semantically).

But I would use it differently to the original suggestion...

dl id=cssed1
dtPhoto:/dt
ddimg src=csseditor.gif/dd
dtName:/dl
ddCSS Stylesheet Editor/dd
dtDescription:/dt
ddGreat editor for CSS stylesheets/dd
dtPrice:/dl
ddFor you... $10/dd
/dl

That markup has many possibilities (including being able to style each
product individually if you want)  I have also used the exact same
markup to provide different views of the information depending on
the context of the surrounding container tag (e.g. a main page body
versus a side bar).

Regards
Gary


On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:19:22 -0800, Chris Kennon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Both are viable solutions, would the dl be more scalable for floating
 an image with caption beside it. With the table you mentioned Lynx
 support, does Lynx choke on dl?
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Re: [WSG] Another amazing css zen garden entry

2004-12-16 Thread Gary Menzel
Works fine in my copy of Firefox.

Very nice crab.

Gary


On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:28:30 +1100, Hugh Todd
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  I  I see it beautifully in Safari, but in
Firefox only a blue background
 and tiny Times Roman text. What the...?
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Re: [WSG] Western Australian Government Website

2004-12-15 Thread Gary Menzel
Just to add into the conversation... the Queensland Government has
done HEAPS in regarding to CUE across most (but still not quite) all.

The best place to start is:

http://www.qld.gov.au/departments/index.html

You'll note that even when you move sites (which often means moving
departments) that they have a not only a consistent look and feel -
but even a consistent standards compliant approach.

Having said all that - there is no gaurantee you wont find something
that LOOKS like the other sites but that still uses horrid markup.

Regards,
Gary Menzel

[PS if government people in other states require contacts in the QLD
Government for potential experience sharing please contact me off list
and I will try and put you in touch with the right people]



On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:19:35 +0800, Kay Smoljak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:05:49 +1100, Natalie Buxton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 snip http://www.wa.gov.au/ snip
  Alas, I was wrong and it's killing me how poor it is in relation to
  standards, accessibility and usability.
 
 I know some of the people involved with upgrading the web sites for
 the entire WA government to a common look and feel. As far as I
 understand it will be happening in the next few months (ie, before the
 election is called, at which point all non-essential changes to the
 sites are frozen).
 
 While I'm not sure if 100% validation is one of their goals for the
 new site, I do know that accessibility is a big issue for them and I
 have no doubt the new sites will be much, much better than what's
 there now. I believe that several years of planning and discussion has
 gone into the project!
 
 I might drop an email to someone and try to find out more...
 
 Cheers,
 K.
 
 --
 Kay Smoljak
 http://kay.smoljak.com/
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Re: [WSG] Web Standards Eye Candy: http://www.scottschiller.com/

2004-11-23 Thread Gary Menzel
Works fine for me in Firefox.

Works fine in IE too.


On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:53:50 -0500, Felix Miata [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Kathryn Ross wrote at Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:59:29 +1100:
 
  document  http://www.scottschiller.com/
 
 Firefox's busy wheel has been spinning on this for over a half hour now
 without putting any text on a page. Anyone else?
 --
 Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or
 prohibiting the free exercise thereof... U.S. Constitution, Amendment 1
 
  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409
 
 Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/
 
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Re: [WSG] Re: image captions again

2004-11-23 Thread Gary Menzel
Use span instead of div.

That seems to give a more pleasant outcome.

Regards,
Gary


On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:10:35 -, designer
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Ignore my last message - I realised I'm putting a block level div in an
 inline p  Duh! :-)
 
 But I don't know how to get around it . . .  .
 
 
 
  http://www.treyarnon.fsworld.co.uk/imagesintext.html
 
 Bob McClelland,
 Cornwall (U.K.)
 www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
 
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Re: [WSG] Web Standards Eye Candy: http://www.scottschiller.com/

2004-11-23 Thread Gary Menzel
it jumps like that because no CSS is actually loaded (well - nothing
that has any signifcant impact on style) until the JS routine runs
after the rest of the page is loaded.

It could be fixed easily by having a default style that made eveything
hidden to begin with.  Then the script could enable the startup
state.

 I got the content, but also got a flash of unstyled content - not very
 nice. Once it got there, it was a very nice site, but this FOUC clearly
 needs attending to. . .
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Re: [WSG] why oh why

2004-11-23 Thread Gary Menzel
Probably because IE is more forgiving if the server does not have the
correct MIME types set up ??

That's just a guess - but it is probably close to an answer.

Regards,
Gary


On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 17:59:05 -0600, Leslie Riggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Using FF1.0 on a WinME machine, it doesn't render - I see the code instead.
 
 Same result with FF1.0 on XP SP2.
 
 Leslie Riggs
 
  A friend of mine came across this site yesterday and when he accessed it
  with Firefox he got nothing but code on the screen.
  http://www.ceinternet.com.au/site/index.htm
 
  I tried it with Firefox 0.9 this morning and got the same result.
  However
  when the site is viewed with MSIE 6 and NS 7 you get the actual page.
 
  Needless to say there is a wee validation problem.
 
  Anybody got any ideas why it behaves so diffently with Firefox.
 
 
  Rises out from lurk mode
 
  I don't have any problem seeing it with FF1.0 .
  /back to lurk mode
  William Haggerty
  VWH Web Services
  http://vwh.ca
 
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Re: [WSG] Font size and arrogance

2004-11-18 Thread Gary Menzel
One comment...

 which can be use by everybody

As long as you do that - there wont be any problems.

If the user is an idiot - and they configure their machine in a stupid
way - that's no-one's fault except the user.

Gary
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Re: [WSG] screen resolution and standards

2004-09-24 Thread Gary Menzel
Another thing that is often forgotten is that many people DONT run
applications (which also means browsers) at full screen resolution. 
Many people still run lots of overlapping windows (the messy desktop
approach).

So - it's all well and good to not design for 640x480 - but there will
be lots of people out there that don't have their browser size to much
more than that.  Not to mention all the toolbars that seem to clutter
the Browser these days - which all take up screen real-estate.

Does this mean we only design for 640x480?  No - but it does mean your
design should still be usable if people aren't running it at the
resolution you thought they would.

Sure - they can scroll - but (strange as it may seem) there are also
many users out there that just wont bother scrolling to get to the
interesting bits.

And before all the cries go up about Come on, the stats show etc.. 
I can tell you that I see this around my workplace every day.  The
stats only show what the machine is capable of - not how people use
it.  And many of them use it very differently than how we might
expect.


Regards,
Gary
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Re: [WSG] NYTimes.com Article: Microsoft Quits a U.N. Standards Group

2004-08-24 Thread Gary Menzel
 This company is really starting to scare me.

The UN Standards group or Microsoft?

If Microsoft, Why?  The article also mentioned a couple of well known
companies who also had issues with the same standards group (SAP in
Germany inparticular) - primarily (it seems) over the groups
insistance that Intellectual Property placed into the Open Source
arena governed by that body would be indemnified by the contributing
company.

If I was involved with this group and was required to warrant
something I placed into an Open Source project which I then had little
control over how it would be used, I'd be pulling out too.


Regards,
Gary Menzel
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Re: [WSG] NYTimes.com Article: Microsoft Quits a U.N. Standards Group

2004-08-24 Thread Gary Menzel
 the issue of IP and standards is a tricky one. There are many standards
 bodies, the ones we know best are probably the W3C and the ISO.

Oh - I can completely understand what you are saying regarding IP,
John.  Where I was coming from in regard to the article is the
following two quotes.

Two people who participate in the standards group said that several
United States and European companies were concerned about intellectual
property rights guidelines in effect within the group. The guidelines
would force corporations who contribute technology to indemnify the
United Nations against potential challenges involving intellectual
property claims

and (following straight on from the above quote)

In May, at a meeting of the United Nations group, the general counsel
for SAP, the German business software firm, announced that his company
would suspend all participation in the organization until the
intellectual property issues had been settled.

My point was this.

if Microsoft were the company mentioned in the original post as
This company is really starting to scare me. then my question in
asking Why? is quite valid in terms of singling out one company who
has chosen to withdraw from the group because they are not happy with
the arrangements.  From that article it appears as though other
members of the group are not happy with what is being proposed.

In other words, I read the article as being more damning of the way
the UN is conducting business rather than being damning of Microsoft.

If I have got the wrong impression - then the press has (once again)
succeeded in muddying waters that it really has no business playing
around in.

And if there are problems with a member company of a standards body
making donations to that standards body, then how else do they get
funding?

In any case, it's just my opinion.

Regards,
Gary Menzel
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Re: [WSG] list item markers disappear behind floated image

2004-08-17 Thread Gary Menzel
Well - I have not experienced this - but - if I was looking for a
quick fix (although it will sound like a hack) I would look at adding
a DIV around either or both blocks of text and see if that helps with
the visible/invisible image issue.

(I know - it sounds like wrapping table tags to give nice layout -
but CSS is still not perfect and certainly not across all browsers)

Gary Menzel


- Original Message -
From: Peter Ottery [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:52:05 +1000
Subject: [WSG] list item markers disappear behind floated image
To: Web Standards Group (E-mail) [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Hi, 
I have a problem with images that are floated left and then when a
list wraps around that image the list bullet points themselves dont
get pushed out by the floated image and instead remain behind (or on
top of) the image. to help explain i've put a simple demo page
together to show the problem in its most basic form  explain in a bit
more detail:

http://c41.com.au/test/ul_test.html 

the css is all inline  very basic. the img tag has an empty src on
purpose. this is just an *example* of the prob. dont fear, the
execution looks better than the example :)

basically what I'm looking for is if there is a way to make the list
item markers always obey the floated image, but just behave as
normal when the image doesnt appear.

any help greatly appreciated. hope i've explained this well enough... 
pete 


ps: apologies if my emails arrive in your inbox as html or rich text.
I send them as plain text and i think the mail server here forces them
to be plain/rtf on the way out. please dont reply to this list about
this problem.
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Re: [WSG] Site check please

2004-06-17 Thread gary menzel
I have not looked into in detail but I can confirm that on my Laptop
(IBM A31p) the behaviour exists.  I can also tell you that I am using
larger fonts (which impacts EVERY web page I go to).  I am on
1280x1024 and using IE.

On Firebird/fox (0.6.1) on the same machine it works properly.

Unless you find this is something to do with the box model problem in
IE, this - unfortunately - is just one of the issues with web browsers
- you just can't know how the environment of the machine is set up and
changing font sizes in the OS does seem to impact webpage layout.  But
you CAN gaurantee that your designs will break on someone's machine.

This is where it comes back to making sure that your designs can
degrade nicely.  This is one of those situations that is VERY
difficult to test unless you have a machine that it is breaking on.

Having said that, I can still navigate your site.  The design just
doesn't work though.  There are probably things you can do to minimise
the impact though.  But without a detailed analysis of your layout I
can't say what they would be in this case.


Regards,
Gary
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[WSG] OT: Next Bris meeting - is Rudy out there?

2004-06-17 Thread Gary Menzel

Apologies to the list for this (slightly)
OT post but the Brisbane organisers were hoping that (we think) Rudy
from the Gold Coast could get in touch with us regarding the presentation
he has volunteered for next months meeting.

Reponses directly to me - from Rudy
(or anyone that knows him that can provide some contact details).


Thanks.

Gary Menzel
Web Development Manager
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[WSG] Next Bris meeting

2004-06-10 Thread Gary Menzel

 next Bris meeting: I should remember from the
inaugural one when the
 next is (but I've forgotten)

The next Brisbane meeting is on the
14th July 2004.

Planning is underway now. An official
announcement will be made in the next week or so.


Gary Menzel
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Re: [WSG] height problem in firefox

2004-06-09 Thread Gary Menzel

 Please take a look at that and maybe you can
find out why the white 
 background is not rendering OK in Firefox.


I couldn't see any other replies to
this (but mail delivery seems to have been an issue here lately).

I have just had a look in Firefox (0.8
version) and cannot see any difference between that and IE.


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RE: [WSG] Ordered list mark-up

2004-06-08 Thread Gary Menzel

 Any more thoughts on this one please ?

My only comment is that the CSS solution
provided isn't widely supported across commonly used browsers (like IE
and Moz). This was highlighted in the original post of the solution.

There is no other automatic way I can
see of doing what you want (other than styling out the bullet
completely and using your own numbering as part of the text when you generate
the list). You could either generate the numbers server-side or possibly
consider (scary cross-browser issues) some _javascript_ on the client side.

Something that W3C should possibly consider
would be a different list item type that performed this behaviour.


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Re: [WSG]

2004-05-28 Thread Gary Menzel

 Sergio Villarreal has written 'Tables Vs. CSS
- A Fight to the Death', 
 a SitePoint article where he does the same design in tables and then
in 
 css, and then comes to some conclusions about which was better.
 http://www.sitepoint.com/article/tables-vs-css
 Interesting read.

After finishing reading this, I felt
like I was Luke Skywalker and had just found out that Darth Vader was my
father.

I wanted to join the dark side of the
force and go back to coding with tables again.

I'll tell you why...

It was the compatibility
thing that got me.

So. he wrote more code (embedded
tables shudder) - but he delivered an acceptable end result
that rendered friendly in virtually all of the browsers. And,
other than remembering the old hacks (versus the new ones he
was still to implement to fix up some of the CSS/XHTML incompatibilities)
it was all smooth sailing from beginning to end.

The result with CSS and XHTML was less
than pleasant and he still had to go through the hack files to get it to
work acceptably across the majority of platforms.

Dont worry though. I will continue
on with CSS/XHTML. In the end, Darth Vader wont seduce me to the
dark side and he will finally, on his death bed, repent of his sins and
return to his rightful place and the Emporer will lose.

[NOTE: any similarities of the above-mentioned
Star Wars (tm LucasFilm) characters to anyone living or dead is purely
co-incidental]



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RE: [WSG]

2004-05-26 Thread Gary Menzel

 Surely that would depend on your contract with
the client - I'm pretty sure
 ours has all sorts of wriggly little disclaimers to guard against
that kind
 of thing.

Our expensive legal advice tells us
that disclaimers (however wriggly) usually cannot be used to avoid responsibility
under the law - and are not even generally worth the bandwidth they travel
on.

So if the law is framed in such a way
that is similar to things like building codes (and speeding laws) then
the developer and or the development company can be held as responsible
as the owner of the site.

It may be very similar to Tax Law. If
you go to a Tax Accountant and convince them (outside of their better judgement
and knowledge) to claim things that you cannot reasonably claim within
said Tax Law, then the Tax Accountant is just as liable as you (given they
are the lodging agent).


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Re: [WSG] Extra border/padding on a checkbox

2004-05-18 Thread Gary Menzel
 I am trying to get rid of the extra border/ padding on a checkbox in an
 IE browser.

A checkbox is a UI element and, as such, is under the control of the
Browser (and/or operating system) to render.  It isn't under the control
of CSS/HTML.

A checkbox on a Mac will probably look different to one on Windows or
Linux.

So - even if one browser lets you do it on one operating system that is
not likely to be the case across the board.


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Re: [WSG] WSG design competition voting time

2004-05-17 Thread Gary Menzel
 One possible flaw in voting is that we cant tell what code been used in
 each site, in terms of efficiency, page weight (size in kb) and which is

 most compatible across browsers.

It's a design.  There shouldn't be any code behind it at all (for the
moment).  But, if code was used to produce the design, that is irrelevant
as I would expect the code to be optimised for a production site.


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Re: [WSG] CSS Debugger in JS

2004-05-11 Thread Gary Menzel
 very very handy crossbrowser tool - works in safari and firefox for me
 - macie and the latest opera 7.5 beta/release candidate for mac don't
 support it (yet - for opera) - can't test winie right now but i'm sure
 someone will answer :)

This looks very kewl - but, while I could cut and paste the stylesheet
into the Edit CSS window for FireFox, I could not get the bookmarklet's to
work.

Has anyone else had success with that ?  Or might I be running some
extensions that are clashing (e.g. Edit CSS extension) ?


Gary Menzel
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Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000
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Re: [WSG] Request: Is it semantically correct?

2004-05-02 Thread Gary Menzel
 Of course, it all comes down to personal opinion!
 What do others reckon?

I suppose it really depends on what is trying to be achieved.

To my way of thinking, the clean dtdd combination is more semantically
correct.

For me the ulli seem to throw the semantics out a little - moreso than
the p.  Even though I can see it is a list of fruit.

If the p were in the dt instead of the dd would that improve the
semantics more? (seeing the content is talking about fruit generically
rather than specifically?)

Then. what about styling?  Does the list need bullets next to it?  Do
all browsers support the ability to bullet anything?  Are bullets on any
item part of the W3C CSS standard (I'm asking cause I dont know it all
back to front)?

You can do a lot with CSS - but you can only really work with the blocks
you have created.  Putting the p in the dt block may mean you have to
use some horrid positioning to get it where you want it (for example) OR
vice versa.

BUT. maybe that is what you need to do semantically (i.e. remove the
p altogether and position it separately).


For me it always comes back to this

You understand the standards and known how to use them - then there is
'getting the job done'

In my case, the latter always takes precedence over the standards because,
in the end, I have to get the job done and meet the requirements (in spite
of standards).



Gary Menzel
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RE: [WSG] Org Charts

2004-04-29 Thread Gary Menzel
 I still think that SVG is worth investigating though will be a steep
 learning curve.

While I have not had time yet to do anything with SVG I have played around
with it's Mutant Cousin (VML - Microsoft IE only).

I have built some core objects in Javascript that give me a CANVAS and
an OBJECT.  Actual shapes derive from OBJECT and are placed on an
instance of a CANVAS.

My proof of concept is a diagramming tool.  You can create a shape
and can link the shapes with lines.  Then you can move the shapes around
and the lines follow.

It is on my home system and I will attempt to put it up somewhere over the
weekend and repost to the list so people can have a look (again - IE
only).


Gary Menzel
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Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000
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Re: [WSG] print headers/footers

2004-04-26 Thread Gary Menzel
 I've done that with a header for the print version only, but because we
 can't reliably control page breaks, I'm lost on how to make sure our
 logo shows up on each printed page.  All is fine if it prints out to
 only one page, or even two, because I can use both a header and a
 footer, but the pages in between are left without the logo.


Just to reiterate what has been said elsewhere..

There is at least one ActiveX control that provides better access to
printing on IE.  The actual IE printing engine can be controlled from
languages like C++ and C# (and .NET derivatives).  The ActiveX controls
simple expose this functionality to Javascript.

I was interested in the concept of repeating the background image on each
page.  I am not sure this would work - it may be browser dependent.  Looks
like I have something to play with today and test :)

Part of the problem with printing from a Browser is that it is not meant
to be used that way (i.e. - not meant to be used for pixel perfect
printing - nor is it ever going to provide pixel perfect layout on the
screen for that matter).

If you want reliable control over print formatting, then PDF is the only
mechanism commonly used.


Gary Menzel
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Re: [WSG] A discussion leads to an idea - Dynamic CSS!

2004-04-25 Thread Gary Menzel
 Whilst it is a limited system, the benefits are good and it doesn't have
any
 of the downsides that others have mentioned so far.

I may have read the original post wrong, but I think the concept was
generating CSS on the fly to tailor a page.

In this case, it would probably be better to embed the CSS into the actual
page.  I have found that some browsers will cache a CSS include which
would preclude you just generating a CSS file each time.

However, you can reference any normal URL (including a server-side script)
to get the CSS (as long as your headers are correct) and you can then
tailor the caching in the header returned.

Having said all of that, the issues that others have raised in terms of
the benefits of caching CSS on the client machine apply.  But, if you
wanted it to be dynamic then, by definition, you DONT want it to be
cached on the client machine - because it may not be the same the next
time.  You still can separate the CSS from the content though, using
server-side scripting.


Gary Menzel
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Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000
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Re: [WSG] Relative Fonts

2004-04-07 Thread Gary Menzel
 The whole point is to be relative in your units so the layout design
 can look the same across different resolutions.

Yes - I know the reasons behind it.  And I spend way too much time
thinking about it now and dont see any clear pathways to a sensible
outcome.  Hence why I am bringing it to a wider group.


It is the current implementations of it all that I am critical of.  And
until my images scale flawlessly as well (because someone with a sight
impairment is going to have as much trouble seeing my images as they are
my text) it all seems a little bit of a hack to me.  It makes more sense
to produce my design so it works and then encourage the use of the
accessibility options in an OS (like magnifier software, screen readers,
etc.) than to have a browser botch up the job of scaling my design.

Flash isn't CSS and XHTML and it isn't a browser.  And you don't have to
think in relative font sizes when you create a Flash movie.  It just
sizes itself - because the whole environment is vector based.  To achieve
that in a HTML type environment we really should all move to SVG or even
VML (or some other more palatable version of vector based markup).

In any case, relative font sizes are not vector based - only the
technology to scale the fonts themselves is (assuming the fonts being used
are vector based fonts - e.g. True Type, etc.).

I have been running around on a number of sites - sizing them up and down
- and am disappointed by what I see.

Can anyone point me to some sites that maintain a sensible CSS/XHTML
design (with mutiple columns - both fixed and fluid - and images and
banners and footers) that scale correctly when sized in a Browser using
the browsers scaling and dont go all wonky?

I don't want to rip off their designs - I want to absorb their techniques.
 If I am going to do this thing with scalable, relative fonts, etc. I want
to do it properly.  At the moment I feel that all the efforts I am
expending are really being wasted.

I love all the kewl techniques that I see on sites like CSS Zen Garden,
Max Design, Man In Blue, etc.  But in many cases function loses out over
form (e.g. Zen Garden is wonderful, but the sites I have to build need
more function than form, they are full of figures and tables and graphs,
and that is where I find the brick wall gets more solid).


Gary Menzel
Web Development Manager
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Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000
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[WSG] Relative Fonts

2004-04-06 Thread Gary Menzel
I don't consider myself a guru on web standards (specifically XHTML/CSS)
but am learning and getting better.

I like standards.  I dont like how they aren't uniformly supported (and am
not really concerned about getting into another Browser Wars thread).

But I am having some issues with Relative Fonts (you know the EM's).

I understand them.  Know why it is good to use them.  And have built the
templates (header/footer wrappers) for our site with EM's.

There are issues though

* Embedded WYSIWYG editors are still very immature when it comes to XHTML
and CSS (our CMS lets us plug in lots of editors but most of them lack
something in some way or other) so enforcing the use of EM's is flawed (at
best).  Some of the editors support the use of stylesheets and I suppose
that is a path I could go down - but fully compliant XHTML is still
difficult given that most editors still allow hand editing (and you do
still need that because the HTML world is not perfect).  Some of it may
size - some of it may not.

* Lots of people out there don't even know their Browser has the ability
to control font size in a relative way.  So when we launched our new site
we had HUNDREDS (not exagerating - they are all logged) of complaints
about the font size being too small or too big because they did not
have their font size set to medium (and there doesn't appear to be a way
to detect what the setting is - probably because it is not standard).
And, if you have a mouse with a scroll wheel, it is very easy for the size
to change when you are on a fixed size page and not realise it.

* Some (more likely than less) designs just CANNOT be implemented using
only relative fonts.  Say you want to have a fixed 200px wide column on
the right hand side and a stretchy column in the middle.  The content on
the right hand side HAS to be designed to look right in that 200px
space.  So that means you cannot really use relative font sizes if you are
filling the 200px space.  If they size it up - it wont fit and will look
stupid.  So this then defeats the purpose of using relative fonts at all -
because, when they DO upsize the font, part of the page will size and part
of it wont.  Just go to some of the well known CSS/XHTML standards-based
sites (wont mention any names) and you will find that not every part of
the page sizes - but is this right?  What if the bit that is too small
for my eyes (e.g. the Menu) is the bit that the designer has in a fixed
font ?


Lots of reasons to go back to fixed point sizes.


So - what does everyone do?


As I said, I know how EM's work, what they are for, why you would use them
and am not asking about that - but I am just about ready to go back to
fixed point sizes.  I always thought I was just a tech head programmer
but the designer in me is coming out and the aesthetics of sites are
starting to assert themselves rather strongly.  Relative font sizes ruin
good design.



Gary Menzel
Web Development Manager
IT Operations Brisbane -+- ABN AMRO Morgans Limited
Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000
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RE: [WSG] Relative Fonts

2004-04-06 Thread Gary Menzel
 We've faced this as well, particularly with the Perth International Arts
 Festival, and we just decided to politely educate each user who
complained about what their problem was and why it was better
 the way we'd done it. Time consuming, but after the first couple it was
all cut and paste anyway.

While this was obviously what we had to do (in answer to the above - and
to the other suggestions/questions about educating the users) I am still
at a loss as to how I get information that will only just fit into an
available space (e.g. 200px) to be aesthetic and functional and to not
break when upsized (downsized is less of a problem as it wont hit the
widht barrier - if they can read it smaller than the default presentation
size then their eyesight is better than mine).

There are obviously times when you decide to comprimise on these things
(Russ' Max Design site uses a mixture of relative and non-relative fonts).

I am looking for some pointers or rules of thumb to know when to use
and when to NOT use relative fonts.


Gary Menzel
Web Development Manager
IT Operations Brisbane -+- ABN AMRO Morgans Limited
Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000
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RE: [WSG] Relative Fonts

2004-04-06 Thread Gary Menzel
 I use em for all measurements (except images).
 So those column widths are not 200px but 16.7em.
 With a fixed width page (60em) long lines of text ie 80+ characters per
line are difficult to read.

OK - so is there a formula to work out PX to EM ?  (at least on a
vanilla type of setup).

And I am not sure what you were saying in the line that had (60em) in it.

On the JavaScript front. that is something I want to avoid.  I was not
even sure I could play around with the font size in JavaScript - but I
would not consider this to be standard.  And, in any case, the user can
supplant my stylesheet with one of their own (and that would be even
uglier than turning off stylesheets alltogether).  At least I have tried
to lay out the pages so they will degrade reasonably with no stylesheet. I
would not like to see what would happen if the user used a stylesheet of
their own.

The A+ and a- bit you mean some JavaScript trickery to size the
fonts and place some bean in their cookies that my JS uses as a seed for
a starting size?

Again - don't like the idea of all that JS to play with something that is
(obviously) getting too close to Don't change what the browser does.

That being the case - I might as well go with PX and be done with it (not
saying I will - but saying that if I have to do all of the above to get
back the control then I might as well make my life a lot easier and go
with fixed sizes).


Gary Menzel
Web Development Manager
IT Operations Brisbane -+- ABN AMRO Morgans Limited
Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000
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[WSG] [OT] A few question about PHP/MySQL/Coldfusion

2004-04-02 Thread Gary Menzel
This is very much off topic.

For the CF stuff with IIS you should probably join the Daemon list called
CFAUSSIE (http://lists.daemon.com.au).  However, we install CF under IIS
all the time and have no trouble - just follow the prompts.

For the IIS and Apache sharing PHP - a PHP list would be better (I have
never run PHP with both at the same time).

And the rest of the stuff would probably have more people on those other
lists that would know the answers.


Gary Menzel
Web Development Manager
IT Operations Brisbane -+- ABN AMRO Morgans Limited
Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000
PH: 07 333 44 828  FX:  07 3834 0828



theGrafixGuy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
04/02/2004 07:27 PM
Please respond to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


To
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
cc

Subject
[WSG] A few question about PHP/MySQL/Coldfusion (A little off Topic)






I had a wipeout on a hard drive that went south so I replaced the drive
and
loaded Windows Server 2K3. I have just installed Apache on my production
machine and run it alongside IIS 6 (which is running port 8080)

I am also wanting to install Coldfusion, but that is next.

My question is...

I have installed PHP for apache, renamed the directory PHP2 and set the
config file up properly - All is good and works great!

Now I would like to install PHP and MySQL for IIS (WHICH I HAVE NEVER DONE
BEFORE).

Do I need to install a second PHP or do I use the included IIs
config.exe???
If so, how do I protect the already modified PHP.ini in the Windows
Directory???

I think the IIS config is the route to take, but I figure I should ask
first.

Thanks!!!

Now to the ColdFusion part - I want to get ColdFusion MX up and running on
this machine, but in the past, it has really screwed up on me and messed
up
the IIS - so what am I doing wrong???

Brian





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Re: [WSG] Pixy's Rollover IE Flicker Fix - Good or bad?

2004-03-15 Thread Gary Menzel
 The problem with the CSS sprites solution that Matthias posted is that
it

I went to the link posted (not the pixy one - the alistapart one) and
there was no flicker.

Nor did it see that background-position was being used.

Then, after reading this last post, I went to the pixy link (which does
use background-position).  No flicker there either.

I'm using IE 6.

Did I miss something ??



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RE: [WSG] New CMS / Framework

2004-01-28 Thread Gary Menzel

I dont know if any of the Daemon guys are on this list (maybe Ben Bishop
is) to reply to this, but while I am sure Mike has done the homework he
needs I was concerned about a couple of the statements and thought I would
comment/clarify..

I am not sure what is meant by too far-removed from coldfusion to use.
FarCry is a CMS as well as a Framework.  But I have found that with any
CMS you have to learn a new environment.  And FarCry is built on all the
current CFMX type of technology - lots of components and object
orientation.  So if these technologies are still unfamiliar, it may be
difficult to extend FarCry.  You DO have to know CFMX well.  But it is
still all Cold Fusion.

As far as spectra-head - I never liked Spectra (hated it in fact) but I
love FarCry.

 IF you want to do anything different,
 you better be willing to learn an entire new vocabulary.

Every comprehensive CMS I have ever used has required me to think in a
different way and has always had it's own vocabulary.  I am not sure what
is meant by anything different either.  With the new site we have
released, we are doing LOTS of different things (including running a HTTP
request out to a third party provide to deposit content right into a
container on our splash page) than what FarCry provides.  We have even
integrated some legacy items from our old site into FarCry.  You only have
to look at the FarCry reference sites to see HOW different every instance
of FarCry can be.

http://farcry.daemon.com.au/go/features/farcry-sites

 I don't think it was ever designed with shared environments in mind

I disagree with this statement.  The FarCry core (which you should only
ever deploy once in a shared environment) has been deliberately designed
to have multiple FarCry applications running on the one box.  When the
instances are installed correctly, the Admin Console is able to
automatically switch between the instances based on the domain name of the
site.

 finding out how to set it up for shared environments

The FarCry developers list has posted many solutions to setting up FarCry
in a shared environment.  While I can understand that the solutions may
not have worked for some people, there is no lack of information on how
to go about doing it.

 There is a lot of the app outside the site, and that is a worry in
 a shared environment.

I would also disagree with this.  I think it reduces worries for a shared
environment.  You don't want multiple copies of a core piece of code
running if you want to maintain a standard platform for all your FarCry
instances.  You want the core code in one place - outside of where any of
the clients can touch it.  Only the system admin should be updating the
core code.

However, requiring the shared code to be under the control of the site
administrator means your shared host must agree to host FarCry.  There are
several hosting companies in Australia that are prepared to do this.

Would you want to run multiple versions of Cold Fusion on the same box and
control them yourself ?  Nope, you leave that up to the administrator of
the shared box (and they dont want you to touch it).  So too would you
leave updating FarCry code in a shared environment to the sys admin.


 One of the main reasons for having a CMS is you want to allow
non-technical
 people to update the site safely.   I tried my test app on a dozen
 non-technical people, and not one of them could find out how to add a
page
 without having to be shown where it was.

FarCry Admin (where you add in new stuff and maintain old stuff) has been
well recieved by our non-technical staff (who maintain all the general
content pages as well as many of our back database systems which have all
the admin tools created as plug-ins to the FarCry Admin Console).  They
love it and don't have any problems using it.  Yes, they needed some
training, but it was minimal and would be expected with any new system.

Every document that is edited is done so in DRAFT mode and the document is
then submitted for approval by a central place.  That is pretty safe
from my perspective.


Am I a FarCry evangelist??  Yes - certainly.



Gary Menzel
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RE: [WSG] Rave or Valid point

2004-01-18 Thread Gary Menzel

 Not proposing anything, just want to hear the opinion of other people on
this matter, see if there is a valid point that will
 make me think otherwise about my opinion ;-)) Just because I have an
opinion doesn't mean its the right one - therefore I like
 to debate it...

If looks like a button in the UI then it should behave like a button in
the UI.

If you have completely restyled it beyond button recoginition, then do
whatever your interface needs/wants to do.

I think the point that the majority are making is that don't play with
the widgets the come from the operating system.

My caveat on that would be unless you are just using the underlying
functionality and completely changing it.


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Re: [WSG] OT: damn I feel old

2004-01-18 Thread Gary Menzel

 p.s. if you don't want to post your age on the list, feel free to email
me direct if you really want to be part of my little survey...

Write a website app for it ;)

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Re: [WSG] ordered list for events

2004-01-14 Thread Gary Menzel

 There's nothing wrong with tables, provided they are used for tabular
 data like rather than layout.

 webmail entries,
 invoices and payments etc
 medal tallies (in case you do Smiggins Holes 2010 Winter Olympics site)
 etc etc

And why not a table of events ? (as in this instance)

First column is event date, second column is event title.  The rows
are the events.

It if looks like a table and smells like a table..

I have seen a lot of wonderful stuff in the last 6 months done with HTML
and CSS.

I have also seen a lot of horrid efforts to change things into things that
they dont need to be.

[No offence Peter] But I just cannot see myself marking up that event data
in anything but a table - unless I wanted to display it in some other way
(that would be a different story all together - but my first instinct
would be to call that data tabular unless there were some requirement that
indicated it wasn't).



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Re: [WSG] big trouble...still!

2004-01-14 Thread Gary Menzel

 Can someone please check again for me?

Checked it then in my IE6 (which crashed before).

Works fine now.


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Re: [WSG] Big trouble!

2004-01-13 Thread Gary Menzel

 #content p:first-letter
 {
font-size: 1.5em;
vertical-align: -5px;
text-indent: 2px;
 }

I am no expert on CSS - but the vertical-align: -5px will probably NOT be
nice in IE.

My experience has been that it expects something like top, middle, bottom
for vertical-align.  A keyword - not a measurement.

But I could be wrong here (but not if you believe the doco on the MSDSN
site).

The other two values look as though they would be valid for IE and the
first-letter pseudo-element seems to be accepted by IE as well.

I have no idea what vertical-align should accept for standard CSS though.



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Re: [WSG] ordered list for events

2004-01-13 Thread Gary Menzel

Envelopes are good.  Pushing them is good.

But - I suppose I still look at a table as being a table - and hence get
some backwards compatibility from it (especially in the case that Peter
has).

I am actually surprised at the number of support calls that we still get
that have people using browsers that are not CSS compliant - regardless of
what all the kewl web stats say about CSS browser penetration.

I have looked at your coloured boxes design and we will look more
closely at that again once we have this latest site revamp (it wasn't just
the template - we have replaced the whole underlying system) bedded down.
I did use coloured boxes - of sorts - to do our new design but I would
like to apply your approach top to bottom and see if I come up with a
different answer (I think I probably will).

However, the WYSYWIG embedded editors we use in CMS's still don't really
allow our content people the same flexibility that we can get by
hand-coding our HTML/CSS.  So a lot of the content that gets created still
relies on old technologies.

We have tried, in the new template design, to stick pretty much to a
CSS-based layout.


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RE: [WSG] Big trouble!

2004-01-12 Thread Gary Menzel

 Crashes IE 6  5.5 on Windows XP here, no idea why though, sorry. (I
just
 saved the HTML locally  had a look - everything was okay, so I'd say
it's
 something in the CSS)


Yes - same story here.  IE 6 on XP crashes with a Send this error to MS
type dialog.

Something is very evil on that page (at least that would be Bill's story
if you asked him).

Works fine in Mozilla Firebird though.  While I have become partial to
Firebird I am still a pragmatist and realise that 95%+ people in the world
are apparently using IE.

Do you have IE to test it with?


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Re: [WSG] styling hr tags

2004-01-05 Thread Gary Menzel

 do i need to add any values in the css?

Here is a link on styling HR that will help:


http://www.sovavsiti.cz/css/hr.html


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RE: [WSG] do people still use bookmarks?

2003-12-14 Thread Gary Menzel

 With all due respect Gary...
 http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.html (look for I didn't think URLs
 have to be persistent - that was URNs)

I think that document just highlights how inefficient the current
conventions are for ensuring a piece of information will always be
accessible.  I think it also indicates that the most useful and reliable
URI is one that identifies the document in space and time.  Referring back
to Taco's original comment about URL's.. this would not really make
for a memorable URL (as it would tend to be mostly made up of date/time
information).  The article even says that date/time is a good place to
start for creating URI's.

The opening sentences in that document says:

There are no reasons at all in theory for people to change URIs (or stop
maintaining documents), but millions of reasons in practice.


The process is so subjective and every different organisation has it's own
rules on what it will and wont do with URI's (which include both URL's and
URN's).

Saying that Apache as a web server has ways and means to mask all of this
is fine.  Except so many webmasters out there don't even know what their
web server can actually do - or they are hamstrung by internal policies
that dont allow them to use the server effectively.

Again I quote from the article:

A lot of people don't know that servers such as Apache give you a lot of
control over a flexible relationship between the URI of an object and
where a file which represents it actually is in a file system.


So - in terms of this list and standards.  there are some
standards out there about what these things are - but a lot of
imagination about how they are are actually being used.

That being the case, then surely therein is the argument for coming up
with a better approach.

I brought up URN's because they are not used very much.

Tim clearly states in the section you mentioned that what people should do
is build a database of URN's that map to the underlying file system.

Make a database which maps document URN to current filename, and let the
web server use that to actually retrieve files.


And he also states that the tools for doing the above really aren't mature
enough at the moment.

See the section entitled: We would like to but we just dont have the
right tools.  And I think you will see exactly where my argument was
coming from.


So - I tend to think I am pretty much in agreement with what is being said
there.



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[WSG] Web Standards OT ?? (was: do people still use bookmarks?)

2003-12-14 Thread Gary Menzel

 I don't know about you guys, but Word Documents, Bookmarks and URI
 namespace rules takes a lot of space on this list now, and I'm
 drowning.. Could we all please be a little more brief when discussion
 thos (OT) issues, ok?

While I agree with regard to discussion on Word Documents (and probably
bookmarks), I have to disagree with regard to URI's.

URI's (URL's and URN's) are a fundamental web standard that should be
discussable in this forum and are not OT.


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Re: [WSG] do people still use bookmarks?

2003-12-12 Thread Gary Menzel

 For myself, only rarely.

 I still think it's nice to have a URL that
 can sort of be read

I suppose the place I am coming from on this is that...

URL's change

Many sites are updated regularly and things move around.  There is no
gaurantee that something you bookmark (or remember) today will be in the
same place tomorrow.  That's why I use a search engine before I rely on
bookmarks.  I maybe have about 4 bookmarks.  For the rest I either user my
browsers History list or the funky typeahead thing in the address bar.
Even so, I usually go to the domain and not a specific page.

I say.

Bring on URN's (Uniform Resource Names) and a whole new industry to manage
them and employ all the software engineers in the task !!!


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Re: [WSG] directory structures

2003-12-12 Thread Gary Menzel

 I think logical to the user not the owner is spot in for the website
 navigation.

Definitely agree with that.

 But the actual directory structure, where you put your content, you need
to
 own that. And the #1 rule I aim for is that you don't want to change
your
 directory structure (whereas you quite likely will want to adapt your
 website navigation).

Agree/Disagree.

Agree that you need to own the directory structure.  The directory
structure for a site should make sense to the owner of the information. It
may make no sense at all to a user of the information.

Disagree that you dont want to change the directory structure.  If you own
it you should be able to change it.  More importantly, you should be able
to change it without it impacting on how the user of your information
finds said information.  IE. your directory structure is only a convenient
mechanism to represent an information architecture because web servers
work that way.

 Because the directories will be reflected in the URL

Part of the problem with the way URL's worked in web servers initially
(and in many cases still do) is that the web server was lazy and simply
mapped everything after the domain to some point in the file system.  This
is an implementation thing that does not need to be so.

That is becoming less and less the rule these days as organisations
realise that what a user sees via a URL does not have to match up with
where the resource is in their system.

Even a URL that LOOKS as though it is a directory struct may not even map
to the file system at all and may map to a database.


That was another point I was trying to make earlier when I was talking
about URN's.

Just because a URL looks like it maps to directories doesn't mean it does.



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RE: [WSG] Fixed Width Design

2003-12-11 Thread Gary Menzel

 Now for the classic: What if you're in a internet cafe and you don't
remember the url?

My response to that is that the Internet does not support portability of
your personal configuration information properly.

This is what I think needs to be addressed - not what a URL actually is or
isn't.  That to me is the accessibility issue with regard to URL's (not
what they look like).

Over time, I am expecting we will find that the URL itself doesn't matter
as much as it is made to at the moment.


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RE: [WSG] Fixed Width Design

2003-12-11 Thread Gary Menzel

 Over time, I am expecting we will find that the URL itself doesn't
matter as much as it is made to at the moment.

I was trying to say that URL's/URI's are not really for humans.

The URN (Uniform Resrouce Name) is what we are actually talking about.
This is a specific form of a URI that is persistent for a particular
object that can always be found even if it actually moves from time to
time.  They aren't used very much - sadly.


You see, the way everyone works is different.  So to rely on a single
categorisation of a piece of information is actually foolish.

You want to be able to access a single piece of information in hundreds of
different ways.

The URL/URI is only a key to the information.  A URN would allow a piece
of information to be permanently identified but allow it to move around in
cyberspace.  An agent of some type needs to exist to actually convert it
to a URL.

Ultimately, the idea should be that once a piece of information - let's
say a document for ease of conversation - comes into being it should be
allocated some unique identifying key that NEVER ever changes.  Even if
the information is deleted there should be a remnant that it existed
under this unique key (and possibly even still have history stored about
that piece of information).  And that unique key will never be used again.

Then what you need is globally (universally??) accessible mechanisms to 
collect these keys and organise them in any way that makes sense to you as
a user.  Whack it into multiple categories, allocate keywords for it
(which are just another means of categorisation), write notes about the
item, etc. etc.

So - my dreams a much less humble than hoping for memorable URL's.

Hence - I don't care what a URL looks like.  Just that the tools I use
to access resources know how to use them.

I wonder when/if Browsers and websites will start using URN's instead of
URL's ??

Here's a nice page (with a nice cryptic URL) on the subject:


http://searchwebservices.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid26_gci214164,00.html


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Re: [WSG] Browser Engine Standard???

2003-12-10 Thread Gary Menzel

 I'm not sure why the browser wars were so damn
 violent

Two words

Market Share

The big companies realised, once the Internet started becoming popular
outside of Universities and large organisations, that the Browser was the
perfect conduit into people's homes (far moreso even than Television).

TV is a very passive medium.  As such, it is much harder to gain peoples
attention and concentration.  Most of us actually don't really concentrate
on what is happening on the TV even when we are sitting in front of it.
Even so, TV had a huge impact on marketting products to people.  Part of
the appeal was from the psychology of subliminal influence.

The web, however, is very different.  The person surfing is generally
engaged in the process 100%.  And psychology has come along again to tell
us that when people are very focussed on something that subliminal
messages can be even more effective.

So.

THAT's why Browser manufacturers want to be THE one on your desktop and
why the Browser Wars still are in full swing.  Because if they can
dominate the marketplace then THEY are the ones in control of how you are
influenced (maybe) and can then charge other people (who want to influence
you) lots of money to use the conduit.

This is why the browser technologies are free.  Because you will end up
paying for them in the products that you buy.


Personally, I think this is a load of fetted dingoes kidneys (TM Douglas
Addams, HHGTTG).  And the Marketting arm of the Sirius Cybernetics
Corporation are just a bunch of mindless jerks who will be the first
against the wall when the revolution comes!



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Re: [WSG] Too Much Space..

2003-12-07 Thread Gary Menzel

 Don¹t feel bad!  Using a basic table grid for layout and everything else
via
 CSS is not evil - it is completely acceptable. However, it is just not
as
 pure as full CSS (from the removing presentation from content point of
 view). Zeldman would call this hybrid layout. It is still a long way
 better than nested tables, font tags and invalid code.

Russ makes a good point here and I just thought I would that using tables
for actual tables is not evil either.  That is, in fact, what they were
originally for and still allow critical data formatting (such as numbers
in rows and columns) to be maintained for non-CSS browsers.

The evil is in using tables for page layout (as opposed to presenting
tabular content).

It's also important to remember that in a devolved content management
model that the content creator is not likely to use DIV for tables of
numbers/information as they are not likely to have the tools or skills
available.


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