RE: [WSG] Farewell (was : Out of Office)

[Rick Faircloth]

Why not create a rule to filter out messages with “out of office”
in the subject or text of the message, instead of leaving the
group, entirely.
 
Rick
 
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Reactivo Química Visual
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 4:37 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Farewell (was : Out of Office)
 
I can understand you... it's annoying.
2011/12/16 Philip TAYLOR 
Just to let you all know that the number of "out of office"
messages has now reached the point where I feel I have no
option but to leave the list.  Goodbye, and it was nice
talking to you all.

Philip Taylor


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RE: [WSG] Desktop. Tablet. Mobile.

[Rick Faircloth]

Looks nice on a Samsung Fascinate!
 
Rick
 
 
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Stuart Shearing
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 2:04 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Desktop. Tablet. Mobile.
 
Hi Birendra
 
To say that the site design is not good is fairly subjective and not really the 
point of a “standards” group anyway. Yes, on a desktop browser (firefox 4) it 
looks fairly ordinary but it looks effective enough on my HTC Android and on 
the iPhone 4. I don’t have access to a tablet so I can’t comment further. 
 
Heavy use of graphics and gradients would make the site slower to download, 
especially if the end user was accessing the site over a cellular network.
 
Just my two cents.
Stuart
 
From: Birendra   
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 1:08 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
Subject: RE: [WSG] Desktop. Tablet. Mobile.
 
HI
 
The Site Design is not good. It’s something like someone create a site for 
practice.
 
Some of the basic things need to be care… like
Copyright font as been small then rest of the site fonts.
In the iphone menu shown at the middle of the page.
 
Simply it say the site has created on 1970’s theme.
 
Have to use some graphics, gradient which give some life in the site.
 
Regards
Birendra
(Web Designer)
 
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of David Laakso
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 9:40 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Desktop. Tablet. Mobile.
 
First-pass. Comments and suggestions appreciated.

This end...
Desktop: OS X 10.4
Tablet: No got.
Mobile: OperaMini os SanyoMirro 4 BoostMobile.

uri:   

Thanks.
Best,
~d 
-- 
http://chelseacreekstudio.com/
http://chelseacreekstudio.com/fa/

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RE: [WSG] To or not to here is the question!!!

[Rick Faircloth]

Friends don't let friends use !!!
 
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Jason Grant
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 9:02 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] To  or not to  here is the question!!!
 
Use a ! Go on! Be brave! Be different! I dare you! :-D 
 
Hilarious! 
On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 1:57 PM, dionisis karampinis 
wrote:
Greetings to everyone, 

I prepare a web project (wordpress), where my boss desires a horizontal news
ticker scrolling from left to right at the top of my header!!! It is
something i would not propose to anyone to do, but unfortunately i have to
do it..

Initially i used the li scroller from
http://www.gcmingati.net/wordpress/wp-content/lab/jquery/newsticker/jq-liscr
oll/scrollanimate.html , which is extremely slow and uses huge CPU
resources, especially when using it with IE8, but almost the same thing
happens with Firefox, Safari, Chrome and Opera... I cant figure out if this
a .js problem or something to do with wordpress loop (as this is a custom
loop which creates an unordered lists of some particular posts).

At the same time  seems to do the job, extremely fast and without
'eating' my CPU's resources!!! I know that the particular html tag is a big
NO NO these days and a not semantic element whatsoever...

The situation is really tough as i need good performance and at the same
time, to only use semantic elements in my code!!!

If anyone has been through these problems before or knows anything about it
i would really appreciate it!!!

Best regards and many thanks to everyone!!! Have a good day.



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-- 
Jason Grant BSc, MSc
CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. 
www.flexewebs.com 
ja...@flexewebs.com 
+44 (0)7748 591 770
Company no.: 5587469 

www.flexewebs.com/semantix
www.twitter.com/flexewebs 
www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs

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RE: [WSG] mobile

[Rick Faircloth]

+ 1
 
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Julie Romanowski
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 9:42 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] mobile
 
It loaded quickly on my iPhone4 through the mobile connection.
Personally, I would prefer additional options to view the paintings, such as 
thumbnails where the user can select specific paintings. Having to go through 
every painting can be an issue especially for people who don’t have a good 
connection.
 
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Jason Grant
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 8:21 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] mobile
 
Takes fng years to load up on my iPhone4 through the mobile connection, so 
I would say that's a #fail. Optimise that by all means.
 
Design is clean, nice chunky, prodabble buttons which is cool, but not sure of 
the navigation paradigm from usability perspective (couldn't test for longer as 
it was taking ages for each page).
 
Overall I think it's a good first draft. Keep going.
 
Cheers,
 
@flexewebs

Sent from my iPhone
On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 2:16 PM, David Laakso  
wrote:
If anyone has time to check this site [portrait/landscape] in their mobile 
device it is greatly appreciated.


Best,
~d 

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RE: [WSG] mobile

[Rick Faircloth]

Hi, David.
 
Good design.and the paintings are nice, too! ;o)
 
Two comments.
 
1)  I recommend a "Home" link on all pages.
I tried to get back "Home" and couldn't find a
way to get there, until I just happened to click
on your name at the top.
 
2)  Just a minor thing, but I think the "Show / Hide Details"
would look better centered under each image.
 
Overall, a nice clean design.  Well done.
 
Looks great on my Samsung Fascinate.
 
Rick
 
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Janice Schwarz
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 4:42 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] mobile
 
Very nice mobile design. Works great too!
Sent from my Droid
 
On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 2:16 PM, David Laakso 
wrote:
If anyone has time to check this site [portrait/landscape] in their mobile
device it is greatly appreciated.


Best,
~d




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RE: [WSG] staff page vallidation

[Rick Faircloth]

How would the list implement "standards development and implementation
through education and outreach"

if not by educating coders in developing standardized coding practices via
outreach through the list?

 

If not the above, then what form would the "education and outreach" that you
were looking take?

 

Rick

 

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Chris Beer
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 8:34 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] staff page vallidation

 

Hi list

Actually, accessibility aside - Marvin looks as if he is a CIT student doing
an assignment ... and while I'm all for helping a guy out with an
accessibility issue, doing someone's homework for them is a little different
when they have an entire learning facility and faculty available to help
them. That said - Marvin - this list is a great place to lurk and learn.
*smile*

>From reading his validation output, I must say I'm a little concerned that
CIT is pushing XHTML 1.0 transitional in a 2010 Certificate IV course...
*frown*

Prehaps the list can advise me though - I joined thinking it would be a
group focused on standards development and implementation through education
and outreach. However, all of the posts to the list since I've joined have
just been "please help me, my code doesn't work". Do I have the wrong idea
about the list? (Don't get me wrong - I'm staying subscribed - quite happy
to help people in that sense *smile*)

Cheers

Chris
http://www.twitter.com/zBeer


Rick Faircloth wrote: 

He's not spamming, Krystian...he's blind and having trouble with the updated
validation site he's used to using.  Apparently, it's been changed and
doesn't work
well for the blind anymore.
 
And I'm sure his replies to responses from this list are slower than for
those who can see,
so chances are, his replies lag behind many responses, making it seem as if
he's ignoring
assistance.
 
I won't sit in judgment of a blind person because his participation in the
"we-are-here
to-help-development-standards-to-make-websites-easier-to-use-for-blind-peopl
e" list
isn't up to "standards"...
 
Rick
 
-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Krystian Szastok
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 5:21 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] staff page vallidation
 
What the hell?
Can someone stop this guy from spamming??
 
I opened my emails today and I had almost the whole first page of
Google spammed by emails from the group, most of them by this one guy,
please do something about this.
 
Thanks,
Krystian
 
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 8:53 AM, Marvin Hunkin
<mailto:startrekc...@gmail.com> 
wrote:
  

hi.
can you help me out.
sorry for this.
marvin.
 
 Markup Validation Service
Check the markup (HTML, XHTML, .) of Web documents
 
Jump To:Validation Output
Errors found while checking this document as XHTML 1.0 Transitional!
Result: 2 Errors
File:
Use the file selection box above if you wish to re-validate the uploaded
file
 


C:\Docs\Tafe\CertificateFourWebsites\CertFour\PrinciplesOfVisualDesign\Princ
iplesOfVisualDesign\html\staff.html
  

Encoding: iso-8859-1  (detect automatically) utf-8 (Unicode, worldwide)
utf-16 (Unicode, worldwide) iso-8859-1 (Western Europe) iso-8859-2


(Central
  

Europe) iso-8859-3 (Southern Europe) iso-8859-4 (North European)


iso-8859-5
  

(Cyrillic) iso-8859-6-i (Arabic) iso-8859-7 (Greek) iso-8859-8 (Hebrew,
visual) iso-8859-8-i (Hebrew, logical) iso-8859-9 (Turkish) iso-8859-10
(Latin 6) iso-8859-11 (Latin/Thai) iso-8859-13 (Latin 7, Baltic Rim)
iso-8859-14 (Latin 8, Celtic) iso-8859-15 (Latin 9) iso-8859-16 (Latin 10)
us-ascii (basic English) euc-jp (Japanese, Unix) shift_jis (Japanese,
Win/Mac) iso-2022-jp (Japanese, email) euc-kr (Korean) gb2312 (Chinese,
simplified) gb18030 (Chinese, simplified) big5 (Chinese, traditional)
Big5-HKSCS (Chinese, Hong Kong) tis-620 (Thai) koi8-r (Russian) koi8-u
(Ukrainian) iso-ir-111 (Cyrillic KOI-8) macintosh (MacRoman) windows-1250
(Central Europe) windows-1251 (Cyrillic) windows-1252 (Western Europe)
windows-1253 (Greek) windows-1254 (Turkish) windows-1255 (Hebrew)
windows-1256 (Arabic) windows-1257 (Baltic Rim)
Doctype: XHTML 1.0 Transitional  (detect automatically) HTML5


(experimental)
  

XHTML 1.0 Strict XHTML 1.0 Transitional XHTML 1.0 Frameset HTML 4.01


Strict
  

HTML 4.01 Transitional HTML 4.01 Frameset HTML 3.2 HTML 2.0 ISO/IEC
15445:2000 ("ISO HTML") XHTML 1.1 XHTML + RDFa XHTML Basic 1.0 XHTML Basic
1.1 XHTML Mobile Profile 1.2 XHTML-Print 1.0 XHTML 1.1 plus MathML 2.0


XHTML
  

1.1 plus MathML 2.0 plus SVG 1.1 MathML 2.0 SVG 1.0 SVG 1.1 SVG 1.1 Tiny


SVG
  

1.1 Basic SMIL 1.0 SMIL 2.0
Root Element: html
Root Namespace: http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml
 

RE: [WSG] staff page vallidation

[Rick Faircloth]

He's not spamming, Krystian...he's blind and having trouble with the updated
validation site he's used to using.  Apparently, it's been changed and
doesn't work
well for the blind anymore.

And I'm sure his replies to responses from this list are slower than for
those who can see,
so chances are, his replies lag behind many responses, making it seem as if
he's ignoring
assistance.

I won't sit in judgment of a blind person because his participation in the
"we-are-here
to-help-development-standards-to-make-websites-easier-to-use-for-blind-peopl
e" list
isn't up to "standards"...

Rick

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Krystian Szastok
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 5:21 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] staff page vallidation

What the hell?
Can someone stop this guy from spamming??

I opened my emails today and I had almost the whole first page of
Google spammed by emails from the group, most of them by this one guy,
please do something about this.

Thanks,
Krystian

On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 8:53 AM, Marvin Hunkin 
wrote:
> hi.
> can you help me out.
> sorry for this.
> marvin.
>
>  Markup Validation Service
> Check the markup (HTML, XHTML, .) of Web documents
>
> Jump To:Validation Output
> Errors found while checking this document as XHTML 1.0 Transitional!
> Result: 2 Errors
> File:
> Use the file selection box above if you wish to re-validate the uploaded
> file
>
C:\Docs\Tafe\CertificateFourWebsites\CertFour\PrinciplesOfVisualDesign\Princ
iplesOfVisualDesign\html\staff.html
>
> Encoding: iso-8859-1  (detect automatically) utf-8 (Unicode, worldwide)
> utf-16 (Unicode, worldwide) iso-8859-1 (Western Europe) iso-8859-2
(Central
> Europe) iso-8859-3 (Southern Europe) iso-8859-4 (North European)
iso-8859-5
> (Cyrillic) iso-8859-6-i (Arabic) iso-8859-7 (Greek) iso-8859-8 (Hebrew,
> visual) iso-8859-8-i (Hebrew, logical) iso-8859-9 (Turkish) iso-8859-10
> (Latin 6) iso-8859-11 (Latin/Thai) iso-8859-13 (Latin 7, Baltic Rim)
> iso-8859-14 (Latin 8, Celtic) iso-8859-15 (Latin 9) iso-8859-16 (Latin 10)
> us-ascii (basic English) euc-jp (Japanese, Unix) shift_jis (Japanese,
> Win/Mac) iso-2022-jp (Japanese, email) euc-kr (Korean) gb2312 (Chinese,
> simplified) gb18030 (Chinese, simplified) big5 (Chinese, traditional)
> Big5-HKSCS (Chinese, Hong Kong) tis-620 (Thai) koi8-r (Russian) koi8-u
> (Ukrainian) iso-ir-111 (Cyrillic KOI-8) macintosh (MacRoman) windows-1250
> (Central Europe) windows-1251 (Cyrillic) windows-1252 (Western Europe)
> windows-1253 (Greek) windows-1254 (Turkish) windows-1255 (Hebrew)
> windows-1256 (Arabic) windows-1257 (Baltic Rim)
> Doctype: XHTML 1.0 Transitional  (detect automatically) HTML5
(experimental)
> XHTML 1.0 Strict XHTML 1.0 Transitional XHTML 1.0 Frameset HTML 4.01
Strict
> HTML 4.01 Transitional HTML 4.01 Frameset HTML 3.2 HTML 2.0 ISO/IEC
> 15445:2000 ("ISO HTML") XHTML 1.1 XHTML + RDFa XHTML Basic 1.0 XHTML Basic
> 1.1 XHTML Mobile Profile 1.2 XHTML-Print 1.0 XHTML 1.1 plus MathML 2.0
XHTML
> 1.1 plus MathML 2.0 plus SVG 1.1 MathML 2.0 SVG 1.0 SVG 1.1 SVG 1.1 Tiny
SVG
> 1.1 Basic SMIL 1.0 SMIL 2.0
> Root Element: html
> Root Namespace: http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml
>
> The W3C CSS validator is developed with assistance from the Mozilla
> Foundation, and supported by community donations.
> Donate and help us build better tools for a better web.OptionsShow Source
> Show Outline List Messages Sequentially Group Error Messages by Type
> Validate error pages Verbose Output Clean up Markup with HTML Tidy
>
> Help on the options is available.
>
> ? Top
>
> Validation Output: 2 Errors
>  Line 32, Column 6: document type does not allow element "br" here;
assuming
> missing "li" start-tag
> ?
>  Line 34, Column 5: end tag for "li" omitted, but OMITTAG NO was specified
> ?
> You may have neglected to close an element, or perhaps you meant to
> "self-close" an element, that is, ending it with "/>" instead of ">".
>  Line 32: start tag was here
>>? Top
>
> Home | About... | News | Docs | Help & FAQ | Feedback | Contribute |
>
>
> This service runs the W3C Markup Validator, v0.8.5.
>
> Copyright © 1994-2009 W3C® (MIT, ERCIM, Keio), All Rights Reserved. W3C
> liability, trademark, document use and software licensing rules apply.
Your
> interactions with this site are in accordance with our public and Member
> privacy statements.
>
>
>  "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd";>
> http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml";>
> 
>  
> Joe's Staff Page
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joe's Staff Page
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Home
> All Produce
> Recipes
> Staff
> History
> Search
> Fruit And Vegetable Links
> Fruit And Vegetable Recipes
> Copyright
> Credits
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to Joe's Staff Page. On this page, you will be able to read
about
> the family business, and the employees who work for Joe Basher.
>
> Marvin Hunkin
>  
>   Marvin Hunkin has been working for Joe for five years. He works as

RE: [WSG] new site review

[Rick Faircloth]

Looks good, Raul!

I'm able to read the text without problem, on both analog and digital
monitors.

Don't make the text contrast any less, however, especially in the menu, as
those
with lesser quality monitors and poorer eyesight might have difficulty
reading it.

Would recommend a "Home" menu item, just because it's so common.  I knew to
click
on the logo, but others may not think of that so readily.

I like the contrasting blue...nice menu rollover image...readily available
contact info...
call to action...good...informative overview of your process...attractive
graphics...
good consistent layout...like the quotes and photos under the header on each
page...

Good job!  I can tell you put a lot of thought into the styling of your site
and
it has paid off!

Rick



-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Raul Ferrer
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 2:07 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] new site review


Hi guys!

It's been quite a long time since I last contributed to this list but I've
been busy making my own website.
It's built on Expression Engine (my first one with this CMS) and I'd really
would like to know what you guys think.

http://www.raulferrer.com

Things to keep in mind: the portfolio and services are there but they're not
completely finished, 'cause I want to develop each service and each client
more deeply.

Other than that is more or less done. I'm working on the multiple languages
(it's going to be in 5 languages), so it's still needs some work to do.

Thanks in advance!

Cheers

Raul


PD: I've tested it with FF2 & FF3, IE6, 7 & 8, Opera 9, Safari 4 and Chrome
3.




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Re: [WSG] Accessible websites

[Rick Faircloth]

Yes, thanks for the reference, Richard.
I believe that's exactly what I was reading about.

On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Richard Stephenson
wrote:

> I think this may be the service to which you refer...
>
> http://www.typekit.com
>
> http://blog.typekit.com
>
> --
> DonkeyMagic: Website design & development
> http://www.donkeymagic.co.uk
>
>
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>


-- 
--
"Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad
reputation."  Henry Kissinger


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Re: [WSG] Accessible websites

[Rick Faircloth]

Yes, 'moot'...thanks for the correction...

I'm not sure how the "technological change" will actually affect the
interaction
between end user and designer as far as who has final control of the
presentation.
Font embedding is not something that I've spent much time on.

I can't find the reference now, but read recently that the font industry was
finally
beginning to get its act together and license fonts for embedding or
download or whatever
the technique is, through a clearinghouse to which designers would pay one
of several
fee options to be able to use licensed fonts in their sites.

This opens up worlds of creative options and will complicate the issues of
deriving meaning
from text only, vs layout/text/graphics, etc.

I just think the writing is on the wall that font manipulation has had its
day, but will soon
be overrun by more satisfying options that will have to be deployed by
browser creators,
rather than end users who will eventually have little or no control over how
information is
presented to them "as a whole", rather than just on the font size they read.

Rick

On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 10:12 AM,  wrote:

> I don't really see how the ability to download fonts (that is what you are
> talking about, isn't it?), will affect web accessibility significantly.
> It will have a big impact on design, but the technological change surely
> only affects the back-end of the web browser, not the actual display.
>
> PS I presume you meant 'moot' not 'mute' ?
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
> 
>
> From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org on behalf of Rick Faircloth
> Sent: Fri 03/07/2009 14:01
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessible websites
>
>
> sine qua non also means "most basic" - yes, it is the most critical aspect
> of accessibility
> to information, if the information is contained in textual form, but it is
> only the most
> primal level of accessibility to be offered.
>
> New techniques, well not actually new, but finally unleashed legally, are
> being deployed
> which will allow designers to use any font desired and I'm not so sure that
> end users will
> have much control over the display of those fonts embedded in the site.
>  Those font/design
> techniques, I believe, will dominate web design and could soon make all
> discussion of
> font manipulation a mute point, which will drive us towards other
> solutions, such as whole
> browser magnification, etc.
>
>
>
>  ***
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Re: [WSG] Accessible websites

[Rick Faircloth]

sine qua non also means "most basic" - yes, it is the most critical aspect
of accessibility
to information, if the information is contained in textual form, but it is
only the most
primal level of accessibility to be offered.

New techniques, well not actually new, but finally unleashed legally, are
being deployed
which will allow designers to use any font desired and I'm not so sure that
end users will
have much control over the display of those fonts embedded in the site.
Those font/design
techniques, I believe, will dominate web design and could soon make all
discussion of
font manipulation a mute point, which will drive us towards other solutions,
such as whole
browser magnification, etc.

On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Stuart Foulstone wrote:

> sine qua non = indispensible
>
> On Thu, July 2, 2009 9:27 pm, Rick Faircloth wrote:
> >> It is the sine qua non of accessibility
> >
> > And that's exactly the point I'm trying to make...just addressing the
> > font-size issue
> > is the most basic form of accomodation possible.  We can do better.
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 3:48 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 2 Jul 2009, Rick Faircloth wrote:
> >>
> >> > But how will you magnify the images and layout as designed for me to
> >> view?
> >> > Addressing font issues is only the absolute basic attempt to make the
> >> web
> >> > more accessible...It's important to be able to see "how" something is
> >> said
> >> > and with
> >> > what supporting content and context, rather than just "what" is said.
> >> >
> >> > Focusing on font-size is quite an antiquated, limited view of
> >> accessiblity.
> >>
> >> It is the sine qua non of accessibility. It's not the only issue,
> >> but it is the most basic.
> >>
> >> > Magnification of entire monitor screens (not just decreasing
> >> resolution),
> >> > and
> >> > browser magnification address all the issues, and in a very satisfying
> >> and
> >> > simple manner,
> >> > rather than asking/requiring web designers/developers to spend
> >> countless
> >> > hours
> >> > trying to code around the issues.
> >>
> >> There is no issue to code around. The only issue is
> >> overspecifying sizes which leads to inaccessible pages. Less is
> >> more.
> >>
> >> --
> >>   Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster <http://woodbine-gerrard.com>
> >>   ===
> >>   Author:
> >>   Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
> >>
> >>
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> >>
> >
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> > --
> >
> --
> > "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad
> > reputation."  Henry Kissinger
> >
> >
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Re: [WSG] Accessible websites

[Rick Faircloth]

> It is the sine qua non of accessibility

And that's exactly the point I'm trying to make...just addressing the
font-size issue
is the most basic form of accomodation possible.  We can do better.

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 3:48 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:

> On Thu, 2 Jul 2009, Rick Faircloth wrote:
>
> > But how will you magnify the images and layout as designed for me to
> view?
> > Addressing font issues is only the absolute basic attempt to make the web
> > more accessible...It's important to be able to see "how" something is
> said
> > and with
> > what supporting content and context, rather than just "what" is said.
> >
> > Focusing on font-size is quite an antiquated, limited view of
> accessiblity.
>
> It is the sine qua non of accessibility. It's not the only issue,
> but it is the most basic.
>
> > Magnification of entire monitor screens (not just decreasing resolution),
> > and
> > browser magnification address all the issues, and in a very satisfying
> and
> > simple manner,
> > rather than asking/requiring web designers/developers to spend countless
> > hours
> > trying to code around the issues.
>
> There is no issue to code around. The only issue is
> overspecifying sizes which leads to inaccessible pages. Less is
> more.
>
> --
>   Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster <http://woodbine-gerrard.com>
>   ===
>   Author:
>   Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Accessible websites

[Rick Faircloth]

But how will you magnify the images and layout as designed for me to view?
Addressing font issues is only the absolute basic attempt to make the web
more accessible...It's important to be able to see "how" something is said
and with
what supporting content and context, rather than just "what" is said.

Focusing on font-size is quite an antiquated, limited view of accessiblity.

Magnification of entire monitor screens (not just decreasing resolution),
and
browser magnification address all the issues, and in a very satisfying and
simple manner,
rather than asking/requiring web designers/developers to spend countless
hours
trying to code around the issues.

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Felix Miata  wrote:

> On 2009/07/02 08:46 (GMT-0700) Dennis Lapcewich composed:
>
> > The technical term is presbyopia, a physical inability of the lens of the
> > eye to focus properly.  Specifically, the lens loses its elasticity and
> > ability to properly focus on near objects.  It is a natural  course of
> > aging.  Onset is often between the ages of 40-50, however, it has been
> > seen at earlier ages.  In web terms, one's ability to obtain information
> > from computer monitors (web pages) will decrease as one ages, without
> > correction.  The normal method of correction is bifocal lenses, even
> > trifocal lenses in some cases.  As pointed out in another email in this
> > thread, taking advantage of a browser's magnifications abilities through
> > accessibility coding techniques is an excellent example to address this.
>
> Zoom, minimum text size and magnifiers are defense mechanisms. The basic
> problem is the pervasive offense - not respecting users' font size choices
> by
> incorporating them at 100% for the bulk of content. Thus, an even better
> way
> to address presbyopia is to design to make defenses unnecessary in the
> first
> place.
>
> > It's rather difficult to overstate the issue when over the course of
> time,
> > presbyopia is pretty much 100 percent universal within the human
> > population.
> --
> No Jesus - No peace , Know Jesus -  Know Peace
>
>  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409
>
> Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
>
>
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Re: [Spam] :RE: [WSG] Accessible websites (was: accessible free web hosting account)

[Rick Faircloth]

Web accessibility is being more properly handled by browser creators using
magnification functionality,
which more effectively provides a better, more satisfying user experience
because images, as well as text,
can be magnified.  While previous magnification functionality has required
users to scroll horizontally, that, too,
is being addressed by browser creators.

So designers can be a good bridge to a better future for users, ultimately
the browser creators will provide
better solutions than we can...and I'm a visually impaired user who does not
want to have a better view of
only the text, but the entire layout as designed.

Rick

On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 5:33 PM, Dennis Lapcewich wrote:

>
> If you are unsure that web accessibility should play a role, take this
> test.  In a group of people have everyone stand up.  Those who are unable to
> stand may remain seated.  Now pose these three requests, in order:
>
> 1)  If you are wear glasses, contacts and/or have had corrective eye
> surgery, please sit down.
> 2)  Of those who remain standing, if you know for a fact you are
> color-blind, please sit down.
> 3)  Of those who now remain standing, everyone aged 35-40 or more, please
> sit down.
>
> Those who are left standing have little to no "immediate" need for web
> accessibility, but they will in time.  Of those who sat down, while many
> (most?) may not meet a legal definition as being "disabled,"  for all
> intents and purposes they are web disabled and are in immediate need of web
> accessibility.  I average 80 percent or more end up sitting down every time
> I perform this test.
>
> The short three question test is not scientific.  It is not "technically"
> accurate.  But as an illustrative tool to raise accessibility awareness, it
> is 100 percent effective.  Here in the USA, 20 percent of the population is
> disabled.  That's sixty million people.  Many of these disabilities have no
> connection with web accessibility.   If you believe web accessibility
> provides no revenue return for a site owner, think again.  Those who possess
> the wealth and spend the money are those who are sitting down.  They are the
> ones that vote.  It only took one blind person in California to bring down
> target.com, using a law not written to address web accessibility.
>
> Accessibility is not about the law.  It's about doing the right thing.  And
> when it comes to web accessibility, everyone at some point will be a
> disabled web user.
>
>   Dennis Lapcewich
> US Forest Service Webmaster
> DRM Civil Rights POC
> Pacific Northwest Region - Vancouver, WA
> 360.891.5024 - Voice | 360.891.5045 - Fax
> dlapcew...@fs.fed.us
>
> "People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing
> it." -- George Bernard Shaw
>
> “…where conflicting interests must be reconciled, the question will always
> be decided from the standpoint of the greatest good of the greatest number
> in the long run.” --Gifford Pinchot, Chief Forester, 1905
>
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RE: [WSG] Was given a shocker this week ...

[Rick Faircloth]

Sounds like a nightmare, Mike.

 

I wonder if the former web designer has any real claim

to copyright on the site's original graphics, or did the client

pay to be owner of the site's graphics in their original agreement?

 

Rick

 

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Kear
Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 12:42 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Was given a shocker this week ...

 

You might be amused to learn about the site I was given to rebuild this
week.It was built by a photographer who had a mac and some free
software, and the client said the problem was she had to get someone to
update it for her every time she changed anything in her business.  She
wanted a content management system.  

 

That's no problem for me - that's mostly what I do .   But I was appalled
when I saw the site she was asking me to rebuild .. .  here's what I found -
the work of a woman who was claiming to be a professional web designer: 

 

[A]  the site consisted of 8 html pages

[B]  each page consisted of some invalid html code produced by a WYSIWYG
app, presumably used incorrectly since most WYSIWYG apps are CAPABLE of
producing valid code.

[C] the content on each page consisted of a single image for the header
1169px x 168px  and another jpg image with all the text, photos etc  702px x
961px

[D]  because of the sizes of the header image and the body image,   none of
the pages could ever possibly line up across the page without a lot of
tinkering about.

[E]  the html contained no content whatever, except the name of the designer

[F]  all links inside the pages were using image maps - something I haven't
used for about  ten years.  I don't think I'd even remember how to do that
now if I had to.

[G]  the layout problems caused by the different widths of the header and
the image in the body were corrected by nesting tables with lots of cells
and a transparent spacer gif to stretch the cells out.   I didn't bother
working out why there were so many of these spacer tables,  I knew at a
glance I wasn't going to be needing anything in this code! 

[H] because my client has had such trouble getting her site updated on a
timely basis,  she has taken the site away and is hosting it with me,  which
has sparked off a war between my client and her former web designer,
complaining that I have taken her site by using a web archive, in violation
of her rights to copyright.  (As a first step, I used a browser to copy the
files from her existing site, so I could see what's in there,  just in case
the former designer decided to take it off line.Which she did.   So it
was a good precaution.   Then while my client and I are discussing her new
site,  I put the existing one up in her new hosting space with me just so
the site stays alive while we work out what to do.You can almost hear
the former web designer frothing at the mouth as she rants and raves on the
phone DEMANDING that I pull everything down off the web within ONE HOUR - OR
ELSE!!)

 

It's like a cat fight.I'm expecting to see them both pulling each others
hair, biting, and rolling in the mud any time soon.

 

Anyway, I'd done quite a few sites now that I've enhanced by making them
standards compliant, but I think this is the most extreme case I've seen -
well since I tried Frontpage v2.0 all those years ago.

 

Maybe I can write it up as a case study later when the new site is up.  If
the client agrees.

 

 

 

Cheers

Mike Kear

Windsor, NSW, Australia

0422 985 585

Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer 

AFP Webworks Pty Ltd 

http://afpwebworks.com 

Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month

 


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RE: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)

[Rick Faircloth]

Cool!  They'll have implants and better vision
than "organically-sighted" people!


-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:40 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)

Rick Faircloth wrote:
> Wow...10 years from now...as fast as change occurs these
> days, who knows what things will be like then!

Blind people flying around with jetpacks ;)

P
-- 
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]

www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__


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RE: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)

[Rick Faircloth]

I thought you would say that!  :o)

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of tee
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:57 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)


On Mar 25, 2009, at 6:39 PM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

> Rick Faircloth wrote:
>> Wow...10 years from now...as fast as change occurs these
>> days, who knows what things will be like then!
>
> Blind people flying around with jetpacks ;)

It will be just  like in the Star Trek Voyager, that Tom Paris  found  
a  space shuttle which has a neurogenic interface that interacts  
directly with the driver's thoughts :-)

And no, it will not named Alice, it likely will be named Rick.

tee


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RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

[Rick Faircloth]

 group

 



 

:o)

 

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of ewen.h...@dhs.vic.gov.au
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:07 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

 


Any more and the thread will be closed. 

Please!!!
  

Regards, 

Ewen Hill , Project Manager, Web Communications Unit
Department of Human Services, Level 16, 50 Lonsdale Street Melbourne
Victoria 3000 


_

 

This email contains confidential information intended only for the person
named above and may be subject to legal privilege. If you are not the
intended recipient, any disclosure, copying or use of this information is
prohibited. The Department provides no guarantee that this communication is
free of virus or that it has not been intercepted or interfered with. If you
have received this email in error or have any other concerns regarding its
transmission, please notify postmas...@dhs.vic.gov.au


_

 


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RE: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)

[Rick Faircloth]

Wow...10 years from now...as fast as change occurs these
days, who knows what things will be like then!

Rick

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of nedlud
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:58 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)

As I understand this thread, it is not about whether current standards
are right or wrong, but how did we end up with these standards in the
first place?

The current standards did not just spring into existence, fully
formed, out of the brow of some greek god. The standards evolved as
peoples understanding of the web evolved. And the web itself was
evolving at the same time, just as it continues to do. Just as the
standards will continue to evolve.

I'm certainly not saying that I disagree with current web standards,
just that it would be foolish to think that they are *definitive*.

As professionals, it is our responsibility to be reflective
practitioners: to question the status quo and make sure it's really
working. We can't do that without asking questions, or without
listening to people who ask questions.

The web is still an incredibly young medium and anyone who imagines
that the standards we have today will apply to the web of tomorrow
(I'm thinking of about a 10 year away tomorrow) would be naive.

L.


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RE: [WSG] add to favorites? - ADMIN - KEEP IT POLITE PLEASE

[Rick Faircloth]

group

Sorry that tag isn't to standard... ;o)

Rick

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Russ Weakley
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:58 PM
To: Web Standards Group
Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites? - ADMIN - KEEP IT POLITE PLEASE

ADMIN

This thread has deteriorated into slanging match.
Any more and the thread will be closed.

Keep the conversation constructive, helpful, considerate... Like a giant
virtual "group hug"  :0

Thanks
Russ
List admin and group hug evangelist




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RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

[Rick Faircloth]

There's where the difference is.users are *allowed* to come to sites that I
build

as a benefit to them.  I don't know of a single user who ever visited a site

(other than somebody's mother) for the benefit of the site's owner or
developer.

 

People don't visit newegg.com, Microsoft,com, or apple.com or any other site

for the benefit of those companies.they go because it benefits them.and they

are happy for the privilege of visiting those sites with  the browser that
they are

"allowed" to use by Microsoft, Apple, Opera, et al.  It never has been and
never

will be "their" browser.

 

You have an "unusual" perspective on reality, Andrew.

 

Rick

 

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Andrew Maben
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:37 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

 

Do you imagine that a condescending, not to say insulting, tone adds weight
to your arguments? If so, I'm sorry to disabuse you, but it just makes a
weak point weaker.

 

To address your argument, you appear (as does OP) to be confused as to the
context of "user benefit", "call to action". I find it useful to remember
that the common conception of "visitors" "coming to" your site has it
backwards - they are extending you the courtesy of allowing your site to
visit their browser. As such it is probably better, and certainly more
polite, to restrict the scope of one's calls to action to the site, and
leave decisions about the browser environment to the user.

 

As for your second paragraph, apart from affording you the opportunity to
offer a completely gratuitous insult, and while broadly true it is entirely
irrelevant to the question at hand.

 

Respectfully.

 

Andrew

 

http://www.andrewmaben.net

and...@andrewmaben.com

 

"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions."





 

On Mar 25, 2009, at 8:09 PM, Nathan de Vries wrote:





On 26/03/2009, at 10:07 AM, Dennis Lapcewich wrote:

The simple process of adding a "favorites link" on a web page is a
proprietary function attributed to a single browser designed and developed
by its manufacturer solely as marketing mechanism for said company.  While
on its face this may appear as a user benefit, the actual benefit is just
for that single browser and its creator.

 

Bookmarking or adding a site to your favorites is not a user benefit? You've
got to be kidding me.

 

While some may be inclined to include a "favorites" link on a web page as a
method to retain customers, bear in mind the function requires the user to
support a proprietary process as well.

 

Have you been living in a cave? With progressive enhancement, it's possible
to improve the user experience of some without negatively affecting others.
Not only that, but the competition pressures vendors in positive ways, more
often than not leading to standardisation. If vendors sat around holding
hands trying to reach consensus before releasing features in their browsers,
innovation would halt altogether.

 

 

Nathan de Vries

 

 

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RE: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)

[Rick Faircloth]

>First off, no, it's not possible. The technology doesn't exist today, or
>we'd all have self-driving cars already.

It is possible...there's just not sufficient will and money to make it
a widespread reality.  But that's another topic for another day...

Anyway...the first time you are forced to compromise your work in a way
that even itches a little, I want you to walk out and leave that pay check
behind right there.  Continue that walk and wait until you get hungry
enough and some of those vaunted "principles" will be tossed aside like
so much waste.

Like you said, accessibility is *generally* a low-cost proposition.
But, in many cases, complete accessibility can drive the cost of a site
500% higher, depending on functionality that has to be adapted.

Blind people using websites and blind people driving.  The cost is not
the same, but the principle is...it's all about the level of accommodation
that can be afforded or is appropriate.

Believe me when I say that I'm happy when as many people as possible can
be accommodated.  I just don't get bent out of shape because some people
don't care to accommodate others.

Rick

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Matt Morgan-May
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 6:50 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)

On 3/25/09 12:12 PM, "Rick Faircloth"  wrote:
> The correct design (and web standards that are adhered to or not)
> is that design for which the client is paying.

Sorry, but that just reads to me like a way to excuse slipshod work. It is
one thing to figure out any old way to collect the check, and quite another
to think out all the angles and produce something that reaches the largest
possible audience. I think the latter is far more professional, and all of
the people I now work with, and all the ones I think of as successful in web
design/dev, sweat those details.

I've personally refused jobs before based on the knowledge that
accessibility was being left out. So I know it can be done. Whether others
would do the same is a question of their own judgment, not their
professionalism.

> A standard could be imposed on all concerned that would make driving
> accessible to the blind...it certainly is technically possible...however,
> the cost is simply too high to make that a reality.

First off, no, it's not possible. The technology doesn't exist today, or
we'd all have self-driving cars already.

Though what this has to do with pragmatic accessibility for web pages, which
is generally a low-cost proposition for most of what's out there, is beyond
me. Making content more accessible is not a boil-the-ocean strategy. Most of
the basics for web accessibility take little work, and are easy to integrate
into the average dev's everyday tasks. The only time it can be really costly
is when it's been ignored the whole time the work was being done.

> Likewise

(...in that they are both referenced sequentially in one email...)

> site owners may be under time and monetary restraints that
> prohibit making their websites accessible to all.  Or they may just choose
> not to...again, it's the boss's choice, not the designer's.

So, let me boil this down: web accessibility is like blind people driving.

Wow.

I think the only thing they may have in common is your willingness to
contemplate them as an implementer. Which is fine, in and of itself. I'm not
the boss of you. But if you're trying to equate the task of following a few
best practices with reinventing the world's transportation infrastructure,
well, good luck with that.

-
m



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RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

[Rick Faircloth]

Oh, brother, Dennis.you're implying that the use of the word "favorites" is
a conspiracy?

 

And it really doesn't matter who develops a function and for what
reason.it's up to the

developers and designers to use or not use a function, depending on their
target audience.

 

Every business has to differentiate itself in the marketplace, including IE.
By choosing to

call "bookmarks", "favorites", they sought a way to become more
user-friendly.and succeeded

in my view.  Calling a site on of my "favorites" makes a lot more sense than
calling it one of

my "bookmarks."

 

And, I don't recall ever mentioning putting anything "favorites link" on a
web page.  I could use

that on a Firefox browser or any other.the terms used don't matter.it's
still the same type

functionality.

 

And what does "pedigree" matter?!?  Do you only ever use functionality that
has an appropriate

"pedigree?"

 

And, I'll guarantee you that as the use of RSS becomes more and more common,
the terms by

which it is referred will change, as well.  It's still just a technological
tool, just like a bookmark

or "favorite".  You sound more like the "company man", with remarks like
"the actual industry

term is bookmark."  Who cares what  the *industry* calls it.

 

In the world of business, it's not "standardization" that causes success, it
differentiation with

superior products or marketing.either way it spells success.

 

And for those of you with legal requirements to use or avoid certain
features.great!  Use

them as you will!  But don't criticize others who take a more practical
approach and aren't

enslaved by the legal requirements which chain you down.

 

You just don't realize it, but you're enslaved more by your "company" than I
will *ever* be.

 

Rick

 

 

 

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Dennis Lapcewich
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:08 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

 


While the concept may appear sound at first glance, it's based on a false,
misleading and dishonest premise. 

The simple process of adding a "favorites link" on a web page is a
proprietary function attributed to a single browser designed and developed
by its manufacturer solely as marketing mechanism for said company.  While
on its face this may appear as a user benefit, the actual benefit is just
for that single browser and its creator.   Web developers sought to develop
similar code so that the function would work in other browsers such as
Firefox, Safari, Opera, etc., with no appreciable success.  The mere name
"favorites" should have been the clue since that term is also proprietary to
that single browser.  The actual industry term is bookmark. 

On the other hand, RSS feeds and links, "Subscribe to my RSS feed .." is an
industry term using code accessible to all browsers.  While created by a
proprietary development group, its growth and development was more of an
open standards approach.  It eventually became an industry standard and it
works in all browsers.  Comparing "favorites" to "RSS"  is unfair.  It is
comparing fish to bicycles, in more ways than one.  The former smells in a
relatively short period of time (and may contain chemicals not conducive to
good health) while the latter will actually take you somewhere that you may
choose to go, and you will feel better, too.  Perhaps the analogy also
applies to each function's pedigree as well. 

Standards are about equity of access.  While some may be inclined to include
a "favorites" link on a web page as a method to retain customers, bear in
mind the function requires the user to support a proprietary process as
well.  Still, some may not care.  However, for those of us with legal
requirements to provide equity of access regardless of the method, use of a
"favorites" link is an implied endorsement of a particular tool from a
particular manufacturer, and that is a big no no.  It is a denial of access
to others who do not live in a company town, who do not live in a company
house, who do not buy from the company store and who do not respond to every
query with, "Yes, Sir! May I have another, Sir!" 




Dennis Lapcewich
US Forest Service Webmaster
Pacific Northwest Region - Vancouver, WA
360-891-5024 - Voice | 360-891-5045 - Fax
dlapcew...@fs.fed.us

"People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing
it." -- George Bernard Shaw







"Rick Faircloth"  
Sent by: li...@webstandardsgroup.org 

03/25/2009 02:48 PM 


Please respond to
wsg@webstandardsgroup.org


To

 


cc



Subject

RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

 






Spend a little time on Google s

RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

[Rick Faircloth]

Spend a little time on Google searching
"internet marketing call to action bookmark this page"
and you'll get a ton of info on the subject and you'll
see many other examples that are similar to bookmarking,
such as "Subscribe to my RSS feed..." even though there
is a button right on the page already.  These types of
call-to-action are typically scattered throughout a
page's content and are considered critical for successful
marketing.

Rick

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Andrew Maben
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 11:41 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

The argument continues to be shaky at best. "...compel a user..." in  
particular seems to display a fundamental misunderstanding of the  
realities of the web as a medium.

I wonder if anyone knows of any user studies around this question: Is  
this an often-requested feature? When available, is it a much-used  
feature? I would guess that the answer is "no" in both cases - but by  
all means prove me wrong!

Andrew

On Mar 25, 2009, at 11:20 AM, Rick Faircloth wrote:

> As was mentioned, it's a "call to action".  Those who are familiar
> with marketing will understand this concept.  Also, it a user-friendly
> way to compel a user to bookmark the site for future reference without
> jumping through the hoops the browsers require.
>
> It's the same principle as putting "Call us today at 918-878-8787 for
> more info."  Instead of just putting "918-878-8787".
>
> Rick
>
> -Original Message-
> From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org  
> [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
> Behalf Of David Dorward
> Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:14 AM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites?
>
> designer wrote:
>> Does anyone know of a modern, valid, reasonably cross-browser way to
>> provide a link on a page so that a user can add the page to  
>> favourites?
> As far as I know, Microsoft are the only vendor to have implemented a
> system for triggering bookmark/favourite adding from a webpage.
>
> In my opinion, the lack of support is a good thing. I can think of two
> reasons why you might want to have such a feature.
>
> 1. To help users who don't know how to use the feature their  
> browser has
> built in.
>
> ... but if they don't know how to add them, then they probably don't
> know how to go back to them.
>
> 2. To cover up a "Oh, you have to love this website, please add it to
> your bookmarks, pretty please" message with something resembling
> something useful.
>
> ... which is just tacky.
>
> Are there any other reasons?
>
> -- 
> David Dorward
> http://dorward.me.uk/
>
>
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RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

[Rick Faircloth]

This seems like a good solution and I certainly would use it.

 

But the others who are against "bookmarking links" could not without

violating principle.  Although that single link provides a lot of

convenience for the user, they could still visit all 11 plus sites

to register their site on delicious, digg, google, facebook, twitter, etc.

 

Therefore, according to the principle of "unobtrusiveness" and

"duplication of functionality" defended by many on this list, that user

convenience would be unacceptable.

 

Too bad.this would have been a great enhancement to the user experience

and, I'm sure, would be appreciated by the business interests whose links

are represented.

 

Rick

 

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Bruce
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 4:05 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

 

I have found using a service such as http://www.addthis.com/ which includes
add to favorites/bookmark is fine.

 

Bruce Prochnau

BKDesign Solutions

 

- Original Message - 

From: Andrew Maben   

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 

Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 3:34 PM

Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

 

I am not so arrogant as to even wish to speak for "this list", but on my own
account I'll say that this question is disingenuous. Obviously our work
constantly involves balancing requirements. An important part of that
balancing act is to provide the benefit of our expertise to stakeholders.
And painful as it may be, part of that includes educating people who do not
yet understand that this truly is a "new medium" and as such all too often
old approaches are irrelevant or counter-productive - e.g. in spite of a
growing body of evidence on "banner blindness", naive site owners often
still want banner-like graphics.

 

In the context of the given question (and no you don't need to explain
"marketing" to me - I've worked in advertising for 20+ years) the "call to
action" falls *outside* the "vendor" environment (the site) and into the
"customer" environment (the browser). As mentioned by others, this
functionality is *already available* to any user, should s/he choose.

 

Having said that, I would suggest to the client that this is at best
unhelpful, at worst intrusive. But there are simple ways to encourage a user
to share the site on delicious, facebook, etc. and these provide value to
both "vendor" and "customer" - and are not limited to a subset of browsers,
and can be standards-compliant.

 

Andrew

 

www.andrewmaben.net

and...@andrewmaben.com

 

"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions."

(Forgive me if this duplicates the prior version)

 

On Mar 25, 2009, at 12:56 PM, Steve Green wrote:





 

 

-Original Message-

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On

Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone

Sent: 25 March 2009 16:19

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org

Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

 

 

This list is aware of many "marketing practices" that are against Web

Standards.

 

--

 

Is this list interested in discussing how to balance the conflicting

requirements of various stakeholders (including marketers) or does it take

the dogmatic position that compliance with web stardards trumps everything

else?

 

Steve

 

 

 

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RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

[Rick Faircloth]

The correct design (and web standards that are adhered to or not)
is that design for which the client is paying.  Web designers should
offer suggestions and guidance to those who hire them for their
expertise, but the decision to follow or disregard standards is up
to the person footing the bill.

A standard could be imposed on all concerned that would make driving
accessible to the blind...it certainly is technically possible...however,
the cost is simply too high to make that a reality.

Likewise, site owners may be under time and monetary restraints that
prohibit making their websites accessible to all.  Or they may just choose
not to...again, it's the boss's choice, not the designer's.

Rick

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of designer
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 2:03 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

My justification for wanting to do this is simple, and in my eyes, very 
sensible.  However, it will no doubt cause ructions amongst the evangelists.

I want to use frames.  Frames, contrary to popular myth, are not an 
accessibility nightmare. The simple 2-frame frameset I have made validates 
perfectly, and passes the WCAG priority 3 test. We could argue about 'best 
practice' but that's not what we are here for.  My thinking on this is that 
I've put a red 'home' link to the frameset on the top of every page that 
appears in the main frame, so that if I could 'add to favorites' the same 
way, a user can save the page and return to it later AND get back to the 
main frameset with one click.  Hence, one of the valid criticisms of using 
frames is shot dead.

Bob
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk






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RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

[Rick Faircloth]

Quite right, Janice.

When you have a boss, you do as the boss says, like it or not.
Or quit, or be fired.  Those are the options.

No web "standard" is worth the loss of employment.

If anyone wants to make the final decision about standards
adherence, become the boss.

Rick

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Janice Schwarz
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 2:14 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

I'm new to this group, so I can't speak for anyone else. However, this
sounds like something that would be of interest to me. I'm certainly game
for hearing how other people handle these conflicts, how they arrive at
their decisions, and so on. 

The simple fact is that regardless of our commitment to web standards, many
are often in the position where we don't get to make the call as to whether
we can adhere to those standards or not. Sometimes, if we want to keep our
day jobs or clients as freelancers, we have to pick our battles and
sometimes pick and choose what we can get them to comply with and what we're
willing to let go of.

Janice


-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Steve Green
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:56 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites?


Is this list interested in discussing how to balance the conflicting
requirements of various stakeholders (including marketers) or does it take
the dogmatic position that compliance with web stardards trumps everything
else?

Steve



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RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

[Rick Faircloth]

A call-to-action "Bookmark This Page" does not provide the
same functionality as a browser's bookmarking button when
functionality is extended to include psychological functionality
from the designer's perspective.

>From a technical perspective, a bookmarking link and a bookmarking
browser button can be used to achieve the same result, however,
from the perspective of attempting to achieve the goal of 
affecting user behavior (or a user's function or performance),
a link is *far* more functional than a browser's built-in bookmarking
facility.

Expand your definition of functionality.

Rick

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Steve Green
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 12:23 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Andrew Maben
Sent: 25 March 2009 15:18
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites?


On Mar 25, 2009, at 10:10 AM, Steve Green wrote:


It's not just replicating browser functionality - it's a call to
action.


But the action you're calling for is indeed a replication of browser
functionality. Calling something by another name does not change what it is.

So previously stated arguments against doing it still stand.


Andrew Maben

www.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

--
 

It makes no sense to me that you would provide a call to action and then not
provide a means for the user to perform that action when it is so easy to do
so. That will inevitably result in fewer people performing the action than
would have done if you provided the means to do so. That's fine if it's your
site but you are doing your clients a disservice if you do it to theirs.

Steve



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RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

[Rick Faircloth]

Apparently this list is not aware of "many marketing practices",
as the original poster was challenged as to the appropriateness
as to the use of a "standard" marketing practice.

If list members do not want to discuss topics, they should not
bring them up.

I didn't start this discussion, but I'll be glad to finish it and
educate the list as to the "many marketing partices" of which
some are not aware.

Rick

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 12:19 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites?


This list is aware of many "marketing practices" that are against Web
Standards.


On Wed, March 25, 2009 3:46 pm, Rick Faircloth wrote:
> No, previous arguments still miss the point.
>
>
>
> Having a button on a browser for booksmarks is not comparable
>
> to having a "Bookmark this page" link on the browser screen.
>
>
>
> The link on the page is in the field-of-focus of a site visitor, whereas
>
> the browser button is not, making the idea of bookmarking the site
>
> more likely to come to mind and therefore, acted upon.
>
>
>
> Also, the words, "Bookmark this page" are a "call" or "prompt" to
>
> action, whereas the simple existence of a button with "Bookmark"
>
> identifies the button, but offers no encouragement to the user
>
> to user the button.
>
>
>
> It's the difference between walking into a room with another door
>
> and see a sign that says, "walk through this door", as opposed to just
>
> seeing the door.  Both offer the opportunity to use the door, but
>
> the words "walk through this door" definitely causes the visitor to the
>
> room to consider using the door, whereas the simple existence of the
>
> door may be reacted to in multiple ways, including walking through the
> door,
>
> avoiding the door, and ignoring the door.
>
>
>
> Again, "call-to-action", marketing concept which you may or may not
> understand.
>
>
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
> Behalf Of Andrew Maben
> Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 11:18 AM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites?
>
>
>
> On Mar 25, 2009, at 10:10 AM, Steve Green wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> It's not just replicating browser functionality - it's a call to action.
>
>
>
> But the action you're calling for is indeed a replication of browser
> functionality. Calling something by another name does not change what it
> is.
>
>
>
> So previously stated arguments against doing it still stand.
>
>
>
>
>
> Andrew Maben
>
>
>
> www.andrewmaben.net
>
> and...@andrewmaben.com
>
>
>
> "In a well designed user interface, the user should not need
> instructions."
>
>
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RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

[Rick Faircloth]

As was mentioned, it's a "call to action".  Those who are familiar
with marketing will understand this concept.  Also, it a user-friendly
way to compel a user to bookmark the site for future reference without
jumping through the hoops the browsers require.

It's the same principle as putting "Call us today at 918-878-8787 for
more info."  Instead of just putting "918-878-8787".

Rick

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of David Dorward
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:14 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

designer wrote:
> Does anyone know of a modern, valid, reasonably cross-browser way to 
> provide a link on a page so that a user can add the page to favourites?
As far as I know, Microsoft are the only vendor to have implemented a 
system for triggering bookmark/favourite adding from a webpage.

In my opinion, the lack of support is a good thing. I can think of two 
reasons why you might want to have such a feature.

1. To help users who don't know how to use the feature their browser has 
built in.

... but if they don't know how to add them, then they probably don't 
know how to go back to them.

2. To cover up a "Oh, you have to love this website, please add it to 
your bookmarks, pretty please" message with something resembling 
something useful.

... which is just tacky.

Are there any other reasons?

-- 
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk/


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RE: [WSG] RE: [BULK] WSG Digest

[Rick Faircloth]

> I thought the post was brief, informative and to the point. If everyone
> on this list with a commercial or open source product or service is
> prevented from speaking about it at all, we'd lose a lot of content. I
> don't think Sigurd's posts are over the top, any more than the numerous
> Dreamweaver, Joomla, Drupal or  posts, and I do
> think you're over-reacting just a tad.

Agreed...it's good to know about new products.  It takes
one second to delete the product.  I'll be everyone wastes
significantly more time than that every day...

Rick

> -Original Message-
> From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
> On Behalf Of Mark Harris
> Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 5:52 AM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] RE: [BULK] WSG Digest
> 
> Glen Wallis wrote:
> > Am I the only person on this list who is sick of the constant and
> blatant
> > advertising for this Content Management System? Don't we have rules
> against
> > this? If so, they are not being enforced.
> >
> 
> I thought the post was brief, informative and to the point. If everyone
> on this list with a commercial or open source product or service is
> prevented from speaking about it at all, we'd lose a lot of content. I
> don't think Sigurd's posts are over the top, any more than the numerous
> Dreamweaver, Joomla, Drupal or  posts, and I do
> think you're over-reacting just a tad.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> ~mark
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.13/2001 - Release Date:
> 03/15/09 14:07:00



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RE: [WSG] Browser Backwards Compatibility -- How far back?

[Rick Faircloth]

I think you're perspective is correct, Christian.

I don't even test in browsers that are two generations removed from the
current release.  Clients just have to update their browsers.

However, if a client insists on supporting IE 5 with IE 7 out, yes, it
will cost them extra.

Rick

> -Original Message-
> From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
> On Behalf Of Christian Montoya
> Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 4:59 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Browser Backwards Compatibility -- How far back?
> 
> On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Brett Patterson
>  wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I was just reading from a book that talked about some code that would
> not
> > work in Internet Explorer 3.0, but would in Internet Explorer 4.0 and
> later,
> > and Netscape Navigator 3.0 and later. This brought up a question that
> I
> > could not find direct and consistent answers while searching the
> > Internet...so, how far back would it be acceptable to design for,
> when it
> > comes to backwards browser compatibility? I have been told from some
> sites,
> > that Internet Explorer 5.0/later and Netscape Navigator 4.0/later, as
> well
> > as Firefox 1.5/later and Opera 6.0/later. Is this correct?
> 
> Yahoo! has a good chart for browser support here:
> http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/articles/gbs/
> 
> This is not so much which browsers they support, but more which they
> test against and *guarantee* support for. So a Yahoo! site mike also
> work with IE 5.0, but they won't lose sleep if it doesn't.
> 
> I think it's safe to say that if your client wants to guarantee
> support for an older browser not in this chart, then you should charge
> extra.
> 
> --
> --
> Christian Montoya
> mappdev.com :: christianmontoya.net
> 
> 
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> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.12/1998 - Release Date:
> 03/14/09 06:54:00



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RE: [WSG] Re: Users who deliberately disable JavaScript

[Rick Faircloth]

According to statistics supplied by w3schools.com, as of Jan 08
approximately 95% of users had JS enabled.

Check out http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp
and look towards the middle of the page for the stats.

Rick

> -Original Message-
> From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
> Behalf Of Simon Pascal
Klein
> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 10:59 PM
> To: Jessica Enders
> Cc: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: [WSG] Re: Users who deliberately disable JavaScript
> 
> Comments inline:
> 
> On 27/01/2009, at 7:33 AM, Jessica Enders wrote:
> 
> > Hi Pascal
> >
> > In the JavaScript/Accessibility/form validation discussion you
> > mention "the growing number of users who purposefully disable
> > JavaScript". I'm always curious just how many people this is.
> >
> > Do you, or does anyone else, have any statistics on this? Is there a
> > reason you describe it as a "growing number"?
> >
> > Any information greatly appreciated.
> 
> No, I don’t have access to any statistics on the matter. I want to
> clarify that my comment does not address the growing number of new
> Internet users who most likely will have JavaScript turned on or the
> majority of users in a holistic sense. I don’t think the users that
> disable JS are a majority but I definitely think they are on the rise
> as many security experts are recommending JS to be disabled by default.
> 
> Whether or not JS-disabled users are a statistic worth noting should
> not be in question here. I think Anthony Ziebell puts it best:
> 
> “JavaScript should be implemented only to supplement / layer existing
> functionality. Your site should operate just fine without it… There
> are always exceptions to this rule however you shouldn’t let
> JavaScript dictate how you code.”
> 
> 
> Kind regards.
> 
> —Pascal
> 
> 
> > Cheers
> >
> > Jessica Enders
> > Principal
> > Formulate Information Design
> > 
> > http://formulate.com.au
> > 
> > Phone: (02) 6116 8765
> > Fax: (02) 8456 5916
> > PO Box 5108
> > Braddon ACT 2612
> > 
> >
> > On 19/01/2009, at 11:14 PM, Simon Pascal Klein wrote:
> >
> >> If there were further communication between the user and server
> >> between submission of the form that would entail a page reload then
> >> a screen user shouldn’t have an issue, whereas if JavaScript would
> >> run in the background and inject errors or suggestions as it thinks
> >> the user makes them (e.g. password complexity recommendations,
> >> username not available messages) numerous accessibility issues arise.
> >>
> >> The only solution that came to mind was having a generic message
> >> (such as ‘please fill out all marked (*) fields’ or the like) that
> >> could be hidden using CSS and through JavaScript ‘unhidden’ when an
> >> error appears (though it could only be a generic error). As dandy
> >> as these automatic feedback and error messages are through
> >> JavaScript maybe a full submission and subsequent page reload is
> >> best—after all it’s impossible to tell those users using an
> >> accessibility aid like a screen reader from those who do not, and
> >> hey, the growing number of users who purposefully disable
> >> JavaScript won’t see the glitzy JavaScript injected errors anyway.
> >>
> >> Just my 0.2¢.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 19/01/2009, at 5:52 PM, Rimantas Liubertas wrote:
> >>
>  Isn't 'aria-required' a non-standard attribute?
> >>>
> >>> Sadly, yes. But there is some hope: it is possible that ARIA will be
> >>> accepted in HTML5 and there is an initiative to provide validation
> >>> for
> >>> (X)HTML+ARIA: 
> >>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Sep/0381.html
> >>>
> >>> Validator.nu already has experimental support for HTML5+ARIA, and I
> >>> believe (did not check) http://qa-dev.w3.org/wmvs/HEAD/ provides the
> >>> same for document type "HTML5".
> >>>
> >>> There is also a possibility to add ARIA attributes with Javascript.
> >>> All the options are controversial, but that's how it is for now :(
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Rimantas
> >>> --
> >>> http://rimantas.com/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ***
> >>> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> >>> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> >>> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> >>> ***
> >>>
> >>
> >> ---
> >> Simon Pascal Klein
> >> Concept designer
> >>
> >> (w) http://klepas.org
> >> (e) kle...@klepas.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ***
> >> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> >> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> >> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> >> 

RE: [WSG] Examples of great high-school websites?

[Rick Faircloth]

ROFLOL!

> -Original Message-
> From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
> Behalf Of designer
> Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 4:38 AM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Examples of great high-school websites?
> 
> 
> > Visitors with images switched off wont see what the main nav links are and
> > those with javascript off wont be able to use them!
> 
> Furthermore, those with the computers switched off won't see anything at all
> . . .
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> 
> 
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RE: [WSG] Examples of great high-school websites?

[Rick Faircloth]

It's a visually stimulating site...well designed.
The coherency of the site is beyond the creative ability
of most students.  Besides the lack of content in many areas,
which violates the cardinal rule of websites - good content -
the site looks good and performs very well.

Now, mind you, I didn't test it for accessibility, which I know from
reading the threads on this site, that this group would tar-and-feather
it for failing in even one way.

Rick

> -Original Message-
> From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
> Behalf Of Sandy @ Mega
Star
> Media INC
> Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 3:18 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: RE: [WSG] Examples of great high-school websites?
> 
> I think the design is nice and interesting. Using video and the placement
> are well done.
> Sandy
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
> Behalf Of Rick Faircloth
> Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 12:03 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: RE: [WSG] Examples of great high-school websites?
> 
> What did you find to be so bad about the site, Stuart?
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
> Behalf Of Stuart
> Foulstone
> > Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 2:11 PM
> > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> > Subject: Re: [WSG] Examples of great high-school websites?
> >
> >
> > Perhaps the students should code the site - they couldn't do much worse!
> >
> > On Fri, January 16, 2009 7:00 pm, Fred Ballard wrote:
> > > Take a look at Sullivan High School's http://www.sullivanhs.org/. As you
> > > can
> > > see in the homepage's lower right corner it's from the Chicago Public
> > > Schools, http://www.cps.k12.il.us/, with a company, Educational
> Networks,
> > > http://www.educationalnetworks.net/, behind it.
> > >
> > > Is it too slick? I'm of two minds. It's great that it's a good-looking
> > > site,
> > > but it might be nice to let the students be the designers. I don't
> > > actually
> > > know what the students think about it, on the other hand.
> > >
> > > Fred
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 8:29 PM, David Lane  wrote:
> > >
> > >> Oops - should've been "Disclosure" rather than "Disclaimer" :)
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, 2009-01-16 at 15:21 +1300, David Lane wrote:
> > >> > Disclaimer: I've had occasional association with the work being done
> > >> at
> > >> > Hagley, and have been a guest speaker to the computing students on a
> > >> > couple occasions :)
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> David Lane = Egressive Ltd = d...@egressive.com = m:+64 21 229 8147
> > >> p:+64 3 963 3733 = Linux: it just tastes better = nosoftwarepatents
> > >> http://egressive.com  we only use open standards: http://w3.org
> > >> Effusion Group Founding Member === http://effusiongroup.com
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ***
> > >> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> > >> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> > >> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> > >> ***
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > ***
> > > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> > > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
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> > > ***
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ***
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> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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RE: [WSG] Examples of great high-school websites?

[Rick Faircloth]

What did you find to be so bad about the site, Stuart?

> -Original Message-
> From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
> Behalf Of Stuart
Foulstone
> Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 2:11 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Examples of great high-school websites?
> 
> 
> Perhaps the students should code the site - they couldn't do much worse!
> 
> On Fri, January 16, 2009 7:00 pm, Fred Ballard wrote:
> > Take a look at Sullivan High School's http://www.sullivanhs.org/. As you
> > can
> > see in the homepage's lower right corner it's from the Chicago Public
> > Schools, http://www.cps.k12.il.us/, with a company, Educational Networks,
> > http://www.educationalnetworks.net/, behind it.
> >
> > Is it too slick? I'm of two minds. It's great that it's a good-looking
> > site,
> > but it might be nice to let the students be the designers. I don't
> > actually
> > know what the students think about it, on the other hand.
> >
> > Fred
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 8:29 PM, David Lane  wrote:
> >
> >> Oops - should've been "Disclosure" rather than "Disclaimer" :)
> >>
> >> On Fri, 2009-01-16 at 15:21 +1300, David Lane wrote:
> >> > Disclaimer: I've had occasional association with the work being done
> >> at
> >> > Hagley, and have been a guest speaker to the computing students on a
> >> > couple occasions :)
> >>
> >> --
> >> David Lane = Egressive Ltd = d...@egressive.com = m:+64 21 229 8147
> >> p:+64 3 963 3733 = Linux: it just tastes better = nosoftwarepatents
> >> http://egressive.com  we only use open standards: http://w3.org
> >> Effusion Group Founding Member === http://effusiongroup.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ***
> >> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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> >>
> >>
> >
> >
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> 
> 
> 
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RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

[Rick Faircloth]

Agreed!

> -Original Message-
> From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
> Behalf Of Matt
Morgan-May
> Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 2:50 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Excuse me for jumping in here, especially (in this case) as a Flash
> partisan. But I fail to see how this kind of project can be anything other
> than a good thing overall.
> 
> What I don't understand is why people are instantly critical of projects
> that are actually attempting to increase access to new technology. I've
> heard a constant drumbeat of "don't use Flash: it's inaccessible" in the
> years I've been involved in the field. But if we don't have people pushing
> that envelope, doesn't that make that statement self-fulfilling prophecy?
> There are lots of us out there working on improving the accessibility of
> both existing and future content authored in Flash.
> 
> There are many arguments to be made for HTML -- I made loads of them while
> working for W3C, all of which I would stand by today -- but it is not all
> things to all people. The fact is that many educators have found that they
> can use Flash to teach their students effectively. I'm not an educator by
> profession, but my wife is, and she prefers Flash over HTML/CSS/JS to
> develop her courseware. If you were to tell her she's wrong, especially
> before seeing what kind of work she does, I think you'd probably find
> yourself dodging a couple shelves' worth of education texts. Telling a
> professional their tools are wrong is not the most endearing of approaches.
> In my opinion, the best one can do is to learn what they're doing, and offer
> ways to make that output more efficient, more inclusive, and easier to
> produce.
> 
> Teachers aren't usually web developers, and we shouldn't want them to be. So
> I'm all for companies taking on the technical problems so teachers can be
> teachers, and so on.
> 
> Thanks,
> M
> Accessibility Engineer, Adobe
> 
> Christie Mason said:
> > Exactly right.  I've sadly watched Flash take over eLearning and still
> > haven't figured out the attraction, except that it offers the control of PPT
> > while appearing to be "rich".There's only a very few types of web sites
> > that still use Flash for delivering primary content - media sites, those
> > that focus more on "look at me" instead of  being a resource to their site
> > guests, and eLearning.
> 
> > Since, supposedly, eLearning is about offering web based resources for
> > learning it just doesn't make sense to me that it has ignored all the ways
> > the web has supported, continues to support,  learning w/o using Flash.
> > Flash on the web is like cooking with garlic.  A little adds depth, a lot is
> > inedible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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RE: [WSG] Copycat site

[Rick Faircloth]

Are you a moderator for this list, Joe?

Sometimes, moderators know it's best just to let a comment
go, especially if it seems short-lived, rather than comment
on it as you and start up a fire storm.

It was the weekend, and it was just a comment about copyright.

It does help that a good moderator know *when* to moderate
and with what *tone*.  And yes, the slap-on-the-wrist could
have been much gentler in tone.

Rick

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joseph Taylor
> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 8:48 AM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Copycat site
> 
> Everyone (newbies to the list especially):
> 
> Just a reminder about the purpose of this list and some of the things
> that happen on here you should be aware of:
> 
>1. This list's purpose is discussing items related to web standards.
>   Sometimes the lines of what fits here are blurred and thats ok.
>   I've been on the list for 2 years now (I think) and I've seen
>   many, many topics come and go that range from appropriate to
>   completely inappropriate.
> 
>2. Occasionally off-topic discussions go so far that the admins have
>   to come in and give everyone a "knock it off!". It happens.
>   Sometimes new members get upset when scolded for such things.  Its
>   no big deal.  Many of the members on this list are extremely
>   knowledgeable and have been on this list for a long time and are
>   frequent contributors and help A LOT of newbies.
> 
>3. These same people have seen many many newbies come and go, many
>   with the same OT discussions they want to throw out at everyone -
>   like in this instance copycat sites.  That topic does not belong
>   here. Plain and simple.
> 
>4. Grandma used to say, "You'll catch more flies with honey than with
>   vinegar."  In this case, the veteren member could not have put the
>   OT reminder more nicely.  In fact in 2 years its the most clear
>   and pleasant way I may have seen, yet...
> 
>5. Then another global round of thousands if emails need to get
>   generated so the other member can complain in the manner they were
>   addressed. Then this email(there will be a bunch more too)
> 
>6. My point?  This isn't Myspace.  Leave the snippy remarks at the
>   hair salon where they belong.  This is supposed to be a community
>   of clever minds and intelligent discussions - regarding web standards.
> 
> Sorry - I just couldn't help myself from writing this post.  I was once
> the snippy newbie to who yelled at members everytime I was mildly
> insultedit happens but hopefully we can rise above it.
> 
> Joseph R. B. Taylor
> /Designer / Developer/
> --
> Sites by Joe, LLC
> /"Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design"/
> Phone: (609) 335-3076
> Fax: (866) 301-8045
> Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Yes Adam, you're right - I will remember that for future posts...
> >
> > Maybe you can remember your social graces when replying.
> >
> > Quoting Adam Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >
> >> ...and this is related to web standards how?
> >> I don't mind these posts - but please mark them [OT]
> >>
> >> - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> To: 
> >> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 10:57 AM
> >> Subject: [WSG] Copycat site
> >>
> >>
> >>> This is the first time I've come across such an occurence naturally
> >>>  in the online world.
> >>>
> >>> I'm sure it happens all the time - this one seems just blatant to
> >>> the  point of having the same tabs in the navigation
> >>>
> >>> www.foryoung.com
> >>> COPY OF
> >>> www.webdesignerwall.com
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> Christian Fagan
> >>> Fagan Design
> >>> fagandesign.com.au
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ***
> >>> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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RE: [WSG] Copycat site

[Rick Faircloth]

I don't think so...if you look through the webdesignerwall.com site,
you'll see that the author has posted tutorials about how to create
just such a menu.

If anything, the designer of foryoung.com has paid a compliment to the
author of webdesignerwall. by using the tutorial...

Rick

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 8:58 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: [WSG] Copycat site
> 
> This is the first time I've come across such an occurence naturally in
> the online world.
> 
> I'm sure it happens all the time - this one seems just blatant to the
> point of having the same tabs in the navigation
> 
> www.foryoung.com
> COPY OF
> www.webdesignerwall.com
> 
> ___
> Christian Fagan
> Fagan Design
> fagandesign.com.au




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RE: [WSG] Question about accessibility

[Rick Faircloth]

You're right about a client like that being a pain in the rear.

I had a client who wanted customers to contact them via email,
but didn't want to use a contact form and didn't want them to just
use a link to email from the website.  He was dead-set against forms
even though they were the answer.  He was so hard to work with, I
eventually cut him loose.  (Glad I got 50% of the cost up front! :o)

I imagine this "image-map" client was just after a certain look and
had been told by someone that an image map was the answer and wasn't
open to other solutions which are better and provide the same results.

Rick

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:45 AM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: RE: [WSG] Question about accessibility
> 
> Hi Rick,
> 
> If any client were to tell me how to code their website I would
> probably tell them to go elsewhere. The client is more than likely
> going to be a pain throughout the project and then also when making
> payment.
> 
> Obviously this is within reason - design aspects - of course they
> decide. When it comes to the coding, the client most certainly does
> not know best! If they want it to be of a high quality and well
> optimised then I will make it using the best of my abilities. There's
> no reason that they should specify how it is coded, unless they're a
> developer and they need it formatted in a specific way.
> 
> This must not be a normal customer anyway if they know about image
> maps. I'm interested to know why they requested it in the first place..
> 
> Quoting Rick Faircloth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> 
> > Darren...
> >
> > I find your comment, "I would most certainly not allow the use of
> > an image map", interesting.
> >
> > What would you do, as is Jason's situation, if your "client demands it"?
> >
> > You can always turn down the work, but would you simply because a client
> > wants to do something that you don't like?
> >
> > Rick
> >
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 7:39 AM
> >> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> >> Subject: Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility
> >>
> >> Hi Jason,
> >>
> >> I would most certainly not allow the use of an image map. They are
> >> only useful for defining polygon or circular areas on maps (or
> >> similar) as links. They are not good for a sites primary navigation.
> >>
> >> For navigation that is consisting of an image I would create an
> >> unordered list:
> >>
> >> 
> >> link1
> >> link1
> >> link1
> >> 
> >>
> >> Set the main img background on ul#nav to go behind all the links then
> >> set the individual link graphics on each list item anchor - li.img? a
> >>
> >> Make the anchors display:block and you can then define height and
> >> width of the link.
> >>
> >> Then when images are turned off you are still left with a fully
> >> accessible menu.
> >>
> >> Darren Lovelock
> >> Munkyonline.co.uk
> >>
> >> Quoting Jason Pruim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >>
> >> > Good Morning everyone!
> >> >
> >> >  I have a client that wants me to write his navigation mostly as a
> >> > picture and then use image maps to get to the actual links.
> >> >
> >> > I am wondering, how would I go about convincing my client that this
> >> > isn't the best way to do it? I personally think that some nice text
> >> > links, styled properly with CSS would look just as good if not better
> >> > then image maps.
> >> >
> >> >  Oh, and to put it into context, it's a picture rating site so I don't
> >> > know that Blind users are going to be too much of a concern for him
> >> > since they can't see what the main part of the site is for.
> >> >
> >> > Any info I could get about this would be wonderful!
> >> >
> >> > Thanks everyone!
> >> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ***
> > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
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> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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> 7:01 AM



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RE: [WSG] Question about accessibility

[Rick Faircloth]

Darren...

I find your comment, "I would most certainly not allow the use of
an image map", interesting.

What would you do, as is Jason's situation, if your "client demands it"?

You can always turn down the work, but would you simply because a client
wants to do something that you don't like?

Rick

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 7:39 AM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility
> 
> Hi Jason,
> 
> I would most certainly not allow the use of an image map. They are
> only useful for defining polygon or circular areas on maps (or
> similar) as links. They are not good for a sites primary navigation.
> 
> For navigation that is consisting of an image I would create an
> unordered list:
> 
> 
> link1
> link1
> link1
> 
> 
> Set the main img background on ul#nav to go behind all the links then
> set the individual link graphics on each list item anchor - li.img? a
> 
> Make the anchors display:block and you can then define height and
> width of the link.
> 
> Then when images are turned off you are still left with a fully
> accessible menu.
> 
> Darren Lovelock
> Munkyonline.co.uk
> 
> Quoting Jason Pruim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> 
> > Good Morning everyone!
> >
> >  I have a client that wants me to write his navigation mostly as a
> > picture and then use image maps to get to the actual links.
> >
> > I am wondering, how would I go about convincing my client that this
> > isn't the best way to do it? I personally think that some nice text
> > links, styled properly with CSS would look just as good if not better
> > then image maps.
> >
> >  Oh, and to put it into context, it's a picture rating site so I don't
> > know that Blind users are going to be too much of a concern for him
> > since they can't see what the main part of the site is for.
> >
> > Any info I could get about this would be wonderful!
> >
> > Thanks everyone!
> >




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RE: [WSG] Appropriate postings

[Rick Faircloth]

Following your construction analogy, people new to standards might know how
to use a nail hammer, but not realize that what's called for in a situation
is a dry-wall hammer.  That's where some guidance even on the tools end
is needed.

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adam Martin
> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 4:38 AM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Appropriate postings
> 
> I totally agree which is why I arose the subject in the first place. A
> person interested in the building standards shouldn't expect the building
> standards group to tell them how to use a hammer. Same goes here.
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Stuart Foulstone" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 6:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Appropriate postings
> 
> 
> >
> > I have no problem with elementary questions about Web standards.
> >
> > But there are perhaps too many posts about how to write basic HTML mark-up
> > and elementary CSS.  This is especially true when the 'poster' has
> > apparently not even tried to validate it (and, therefore, not seriously
> > tried to solve the problem themselves).
> >
> > Should we not, at least, expect a list contributor to know the basics of
> > HTML and CSS, for example.
> >
> > At the other end of the scale, there are sometimes posts which seem to be
> > more about how to 'work around' Web standards to achieve a particular
> > design rather than DESIGN to Web Standards in the first place (usually a
> > knock-on effect due to graphic designers pretending to be Web designers).
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, August 5, 2008 10:00 pm, Jody Tate wrote:
> >> I'm a lurker on the list, but primarily because the list, so far, has
> >> seemed
> >> like a place where people come for help solving specific, remedial
> >> problems
> >> with long-standing (in internet-time) solutions well-documented on the
> >> internet and in books.
> >>
> >> On 8/5/08 11:10 AM, "Rick Faircloth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> And I would like to know what a list on any subject is for if not for
> >>> helping
> >>> people understand the most basic principles and application of a give
> >>> practice.
> >>> A list on any topic must embrace all level of participants, beginners
> >>> and
> >>> advanced, alike.
> >>
> >> If we think of the list as a classroom, a teaching environment, then it's
> >> standard practice to have separate beginning, advanced, etc. classes. At
> >> the
> >> university level, for example (in the US), classes at the 100 level
> >> tackle
> >> different issues than classes at the 200, 300 and 400 level.
> >>
> >> A list on a topic isn't required to embrace all levels of expertise. I've
> >> participated in many mailings lists where some requests for basic help
> >> were
> >> considered off-topic. Requests for help when answers can be found by via
> >> searches or reading books were often seen as inappropriate.
> >>
> >> I'd advocate (at the risk of sounding snobby), as some have suggested,
> >> for
> >> different lists--one to accommodate beginners and another to accommodate
> >> other developers interested, not in help with standards, but in the
> >> standards themselves.
> >>
> >>> Anyone who thinks a list about web standards should not first have as
> >>> its
> >>> mission
> >>> to teach and clarify the basics of the tools of standardization, such as
> >>> CSS,
> >>> is
> >>> mistaken.  Unless expressly stated, a list must cater to the lowest
> >>> common
> >>> denominator of its participants, not the highest.  By doing so, those on
> >>> the
> >>> bottom
> >>> are lifted up, instead of always being pushed down and kept in the dark.
> >>
> >> To think a list about web standards doesn't need to have teaching as its
> >> first mission is not mistaken, it's considering that a different goal or
> >> multiple goals might be acceptable.
> >>
> >> Web standards are not new, though they may be new to some list users.
> >> Teaching can be a function, but if helping others with the basics is its
> >> sole function, as it's becoming here, it neglects another

RE: [WSG] Appropriate postings

[Rick Faircloth]

I understand your concern, Stuart.  The list shouldn't become
a "first-responder" to code someone's problem.  But we should be
aware, also, that usually, someone who posts even what seems to be
a rudimentary problem has actually tried to solve it on their own
and is just missing the solution.

Those new to CSS and other web standards tools will often be reluctant
to post their own attempts to code a solution and will just ask for
input on a solution.

It's a fine line to walk, but we have to be careful not to "read behind
the post" and assume that someone is just asking others to do their work
for them.

Rick

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stuart
Foulstone
> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 4:09 AM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Appropriate postings
> 
> 
> I have no problem with elementary questions about Web standards.
> 
> But there are perhaps too many posts about how to write basic HTML mark-up
> and elementary CSS.  This is especially true when the 'poster' has
> apparently not even tried to validate it (and, therefore, not seriously
> tried to solve the problem themselves).
> 
> Should we not, at least, expect a list contributor to know the basics of
> HTML and CSS, for example.
> 
> At the other end of the scale, there are sometimes posts which seem to be
> more about how to 'work around' Web standards to achieve a particular
> design rather than DESIGN to Web Standards in the first place (usually a
> knock-on effect due to graphic designers pretending to be Web designers).
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, August 5, 2008 10:00 pm, Jody Tate wrote:
> > I'm a lurker on the list, but primarily because the list, so far, has
> > seemed
> > like a place where people come for help solving specific, remedial
> > problems
> > with long-standing (in internet-time) solutions well-documented on the
> > internet and in books.
> >
> > On 8/5/08 11:10 AM, "Rick Faircloth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> And I would like to know what a list on any subject is for if not for
> >> helping
> >> people understand the most basic principles and application of a give
> >> practice.
> >> A list on any topic must embrace all level of participants, beginners
> >> and
> >> advanced, alike.
> >
> > If we think of the list as a classroom, a teaching environment, then it's
> > standard practice to have separate beginning, advanced, etc. classes. At
> > the
> > university level, for example (in the US), classes at the 100 level tackle
> > different issues than classes at the 200, 300 and 400 level.
> >
> > A list on a topic isn't required to embrace all levels of expertise. I've
> > participated in many mailings lists where some requests for basic help
> > were
> > considered off-topic. Requests for help when answers can be found by via
> > searches or reading books were often seen as inappropriate.
> >
> > I'd advocate (at the risk of sounding snobby), as some have suggested, for
> > different lists--one to accommodate beginners and another to accommodate
> > other developers interested, not in help with standards, but in the
> > standards themselves.
> >
> >> Anyone who thinks a list about web standards should not first have as
> >> its
> >> mission
> >> to teach and clarify the basics of the tools of standardization, such as
> >> CSS,
> >> is
> >> mistaken.  Unless expressly stated, a list must cater to the lowest
> >> common
> >> denominator of its participants, not the highest.  By doing so, those on
> >> the
> >> bottom
> >> are lifted up, instead of always being pushed down and kept in the dark.
> >
> > To think a list about web standards doesn't need to have teaching as its
> > first mission is not mistaken, it's considering that a different goal or
> > multiple goals might be acceptable.
> >
> > Web standards are not new, though they may be new to some list users.
> > Teaching can be a function, but if helping others with the basics is its
> > sole function, as it's becoming here, it neglects another portion of the
> > list's members, those who have been using web standards since their
> > inception and hope to have extended discussions about, for example, XHTML
> > vs. HTML5, CSS3, current and upcoming browser implementation of standards,
> > emerging standards and so on.
> >
> > -jody
> >
> > --
> > Jod

RE: [WSG] Appropriate postings

[Rick Faircloth]

Thanks for your thoughts, Jody.

I agree with you for the most part.

I would say, however, that even on the lists on which I participate,
the "Newbie" version of the list still has to have experienced posters
who can guide the newbies.  Without them, the newbies would all be
floundering for lack of guidance.

Also, you're right in saying that a list on a topic doesn't *have* to have
it first mission be to teach.  However, a list as broad in spectrum in dealing
with standards as this list should have teaching as a core purpose, unless it 
specifically states
otherwise.

And finally, I participate on other lists that have users with varying degrees
of expertise, so there are many topics that are beyond me or of no interest to 
me.
For those, I just skim the topics and delete.  I guess some people do feel duty 
bound to
read all topics, but I just hit the ones that I have answers to or have some 
interest for me.

If I read them all I'd never get anything done!  :o)

But always, list management is a tricky business and discussions like these are 
part of
a growing, vibrant community.  It would be very easy to manage a list where 
there were
no participants!

Rick

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jody Tate
> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 5:01 PM
> To: Web Standards Group
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Appropriate postings
> 
> I'm a lurker on the list, but primarily because the list, so far, has seemed
> like a place where people come for help solving specific, remedial problems
> with long-standing (in internet-time) solutions well-documented on the
> internet and in books.
> 
> On 8/5/08 11:10 AM, "Rick Faircloth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > And I would like to know what a list on any subject is for if not for 
> > helping
> > people understand the most basic principles and application of a give
> > practice.
> > A list on any topic must embrace all level of participants, beginners and
> > advanced, alike.
> 
> If we think of the list as a classroom, a teaching environment, then it's
> standard practice to have separate beginning, advanced, etc. classes. At the
> university level, for example (in the US), classes at the 100 level tackle
> different issues than classes at the 200, 300 and 400 level.
> 
> A list on a topic isn't required to embrace all levels of expertise. I've
> participated in many mailings lists where some requests for basic help were
> considered off-topic. Requests for help when answers can be found by via
> searches or reading books were often seen as inappropriate.
> 
> I'd advocate (at the risk of sounding snobby), as some have suggested, for
> different lists--one to accommodate beginners and another to accommodate
> other developers interested, not in help with standards, but in the
> standards themselves.
> 
> > Anyone who thinks a list about web standards should not first have as its
> > mission
> > to teach and clarify the basics of the tools of standardization, such as 
> > CSS,
> > is
> > mistaken.  Unless expressly stated, a list must cater to the lowest common
> > denominator of its participants, not the highest.  By doing so, those on the
> > bottom
> > are lifted up, instead of always being pushed down and kept in the dark.
> 
> To think a list about web standards doesn't need to have teaching as its
> first mission is not mistaken, it's considering that a different goal or
> multiple goals might be acceptable.
> 
> Web standards are not new, though they may be new to some list users.
> Teaching can be a function, but if helping others with the basics is its
> sole function, as it's becoming here, it neglects another portion of the
> list's members, those who have been using web standards since their
> inception and hope to have extended discussions about, for example, XHTML
> vs. HTML5, CSS3, current and upcoming browser implementation of standards,
> emerging standards and so on.
> 
> -jody
> 
> --
> Jody Tate
> http://staff.washington.edu/jtate/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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> 
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.12/1592 - Release Date: 8/5/2008 
> 6:03 AM



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RE: [WSG] Appropriate postings

[Rick Faircloth]

> Sorry to come across blunt - but I don't think the web standards group 
> is meant to be a teacher of css. Great that people on here are wanting 
> to learn. But there are plenty of other places dedicated to these sort 
> of things.

And I would like to know what a list on any subject is for if not for helping
people understand the most basic principles and application of a give practice.

A list on any topic must embrace all level of participants, beginners and 
advanced, alike.

If one cannot expect to participate in this list and "learn CSS", then it needs
to be made known that this is a list for advanced web standards gurus 
only...those who
need to understand something basic need not post...you will only be belittled 
for
your ignorance, not tutored and nurtured in your quest for coding to web 
standards.

My personal opinion is that the moderators need to be more "moderate" in their
enforcement of list standards.  In other words, "chill out" a little and let 
this
be a living, breathing community of participants who do think other thoughts 
they'd
like to share or need help on topics that might not fit a tightly screwed 
definition of
"web standards", but that don't justify "joining another list" just to ask a 
question
that is slightly oblique to the main list subject matter.

Anyone who thinks a list about web standards should not first have as its 
mission
to teach and clarify the basics of the tools of standardization, such as CSS, is
mistaken.  Unless expressly stated, a list must cater to the lowest common
denominator of its participants, not the highest.  By doing so, those on the 
bottom
are lifted up, instead of always being pushed down and kept in the dark.

And, yes, I agree with another poster, that there is a great need for a 
"Standards Newbie"
list, where *all* questions are welcome, if this list won't suffice.

Rick



> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael
Horowitz
> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 1:16 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Appropriate postings
> 
> I look at the list guidelines to see if I am appropriate
> 
> http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm where it says the list is
> 
> Provide web standards information and assistance to developers...
> 
> The mail list covers any topic associated with web standards including:
> 
> * Implementing Web Standards - eg: technologies such as HTML, XHTML,
>   CSS, DOM, UAAG, RDF, XML, JavaScript and EcmaScript
> 
> 
> It seems my questions are about implementing Web Standards.  I certainly
> agree with the earlier posters who suggested I make sure to validate
> before posting questions on what I do.  That would have saved some dumb
> questions on my behalf.  I do think we should probably add requiring
> validation before posting How To my sites broken questions to the list.
> 
> I also do think that it is possible their are lurkers on my list
> learning web standards and just starting with tableless design who may
> benefit from my questions.  Going back 20 years to college I remember
> feeling like an idiot being the only one to ask a question in class when
> I didn't understand something only to have a half a dozen people thank
> me for my question after class because they were too afraid to ask.  So
> I do believe there are other who may learn from my questions.
> 
> There may be a benefit to the group to have multiple mail lists for
> different aspects of Web Standards including a newbie list where people
> can seek help.  I would also be open to having a standard part of a
> subject line like
> Dumb Newbie asking question :)   to allow people who don't want to get
> involved with helping to more easily filter my mail.  I can tell you it
> will probably be 6 months to a year before I can add much more to the
> list besides asking questions so you may just with to use your email
> filter to put my posts to your trash bin and take it out again this time
> next year.
> 
> I know I am supposed to thank people off list for help but as long as it
> is part of a longer posting I will just add some thanks for your help.
> I do learn alot from this list both from my questions on the subject I
> just read.
> 
> Michael Horowitz
> Your Computer Consultant
> http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
> 561-394-9079
> 
> 
> 
> Adam Martin wrote:
> > Sorry to come across blunt - but I don't think the web standards group
> > is meant to be a teacher of css. Great that people on here are wanting
> > to learn. But there are plenty of other places dedicated to these sort
> > of things.
> > - Original Message - From: "Michael Horowitz"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 2:16 AM
> > Subject: Re: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list
> >
> >
> >> In playing I've found using the relative positioning working pretty
> >> good for me.  Is it just a matter of personal preference what I use
> >> then?

RE: [WSG] Please unsubscribe me

[Rick Faircloth]

Check out the link at the bottom of this page...

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stuart
Sheridan
> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 9:30 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: [WSG] Please unsubscribe me
> 
> Please unsubscribe me
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 9:25 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: WSG Digest
> 
> *
> WEB STANDARDS GROUP MAIL LIST DIGEST
> *
> 
> 
> From: "Cook, Karen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:47:05 +1000
> Subject: RE: WSG Digest
> 
> 
> Please unsubscribe me
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, 30 June 2008 9:22 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: WSG Digest
> 
> *
> WEB STANDARDS GROUP MAIL LIST DIGEST
> *
> 
> 
> *
> From: Lynette Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 08:20:34 +0800
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Scaling a background image
> 
> Chris Pearce wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> >
> >
> > Has anyone been able to successfully scale a CSS background image to
> > the current window size? I've done some research via Google and it
> > appears this can't be done purely with CSS (at least not yet), maybe
> > some JavaScript?
> >
> >
> >
> Is this the sort of thing you mean: http://www.bluelightning.com.au/
> 
> The image reduces in size at smaller screen resolutions.
> 
> Lyn
> 
> WesternWeb Design
> Perth Western Australia
> 
> 
> 
> *
> From: "Matthew Holloway" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:56:29 +1200
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Scaling a background image
> 
> On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 12:12 PM, Chris Pearce <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> >  Has anyone been able to successfully scale a CSS background image to
> the
> > current window size? I've done some research via Google and it appears
> this
> > can't be done purely with CSS (at least not yet), maybe some
> JavaScript?
> >
> >
> 
> Here's a CSS and HTML way of doing it for those browsers that understand
> position:fixed,
> 
> http://holloway.co.nz/mefi/fullscreenbackground2/
> 
> For those browsers that don't you'd need to emulate it with
> JavaScript...
> window.onscroll to move the #background down the page with the scroll
> position.
> 
> 
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> 
> Sensis. Helping you find, buy and sell.
> 
> www.sensis.com.au - www.yellow.com.au - www.whitepages.com.au -
>  www.citysearch.com.au - www.whereis.com.au - www.tradingpost.com.au
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> From: Sandra Vassallo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:12:29 +1000
> Subject: Re: [WSG] HTML 4.01 MAP element prevents links from displaying using 
> a screen reader
> 
> Hi,
> 
> A good news story... The earlier problem of navigation links (using the
> html map element) not displaying in Firefox when accessed via a screen
> reader seems to have been resolved. The report to bugzilla was quickly
> actioned  and is now finished - thanks to open source developers Marco
> Zehe, Alexander Surkov and Aaron Leventhal who have been working on a
> patch for the last 8 weeks.
> 
> Currently, it is in the development releases of 3.1a1pre ... the next
> major update to Firefox is tentatively due in Q1/2009 and it is likely
> to be approved for full release as part of version 3.0.1 (all signs at
> this stage are promising, so fingers crossed)
> 
> A log of the development activity is at
> 
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=431615
> 
> Cheers,
> Sandra.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sandra Vassallo wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I recently come across a problem in Firefox with screen re

RE: [WSG] help with background color

[Rick Faircloth]

Chill, out... and watch the language...

Rick

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ?? 
> ?
> Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 3:54 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] help with background color
> 
> wtf!
> wrap name in some elemnts/ and give it needed bg
> 
> wtf!
> 
> Laert Jansen пишет:
> >
> > Hello everyone!
> >
> > I am looking for some help here. I want to apply a background to the
> > names of the "clients" on my website (www.laertjansen.com
> > )
> >
> > I did it to the text on the top ..there´s a black
> > background..and I want a blue bg on the client´s name but its
> > not working. How do I do this?
> >
> > I attached an image to show what I want to do
> >
> > Thanks a lot!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Laert Jansen
> > www.laertjansen.com 
> >
> > ***
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> >
> 
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