Re: [WSG] Aside and section
Sectioning within Aside Yes. These section would have a title as seen on html5doctor http://html5doctor.com/aside-revisited/ aside.extras contains sections also this maybe useful to you http://html5doctor.com/wp-content/uploads/HTML5Doctor-sectioning-flowchart.pdf - S On 28 January 2011 15:42, Tom Livingston tom...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks for the replies. Still working out the new elements in my head. The outliner is handy, thanks for the link David. 2011/1/24 Ворон rav...@mail.ru: Is it ok to nest section elements inside the aside element? Can't come up with anything about this scenario on Google... Hi. The section element represents a generic section of a document or application. A section, in this context, is a thematic grouping of content, typically with a heading. The aside element represents a section of a page that consists of content that is tangentially related to the content around the aside element, and which could be considered separate from that content. According to this you may nest section inside aside element, but is that ok, that you have as many unrelated content on the page, that you want divide it to different sections? This make no sense to me. Could we see the page, where you want to use section inside aside element? Or jpg with design? If you just need a wrapper — use div instead. And from technical point of view — aside and section just block level elements. You may use them how you want to. All best regards. Imp. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic | ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Detecting Mobile user agent - what methods work best?
Also you can get opera mobile emu for pc or mac :) http://my.opera.com/chooseopera/blog/2010/04/22/get-the-opera-mobile-emulator-on-your-mac-or-pc and the info for the Samsung Emu is here (think this is the appropriate link for what Tee mentioned) http://innovator.samsungmobile.com/galaxyTab.do#02 - S On 7 January 2011 17:21, tee weblis...@gmail.com wrote: On mobile strategy: Bruce Lawson http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/the-mobile-web-optimization-guide/ [Personally, I think media queries is the way to go.] Media Queries for Mobile Web is nothing but kool-aid nevertheless :-) I admit though, I idrink/i it very often. http://tripleodeon.com/2010/10/not-a-mobile-web-merely-a-320px-wide-one/ http://www.cloudfour.com/css-media-query-for-mobile-is-fools-gold/ On Jan 6, 2011, at 8:10 PM, Mike Kear wrote: [A] a link at the top of the normal page, linking to a mobile version of the page. (yuk) [B] javascript detection (but there are thousands of mobile devices to detect. YUK ) [C] Use CSS @media handheld (but many mobile phones don't support the handheld media type ) [D] server side detection using CGI.User_Agent (but there are so many user agents to detect) [E] screen resolution detection (but is that reliable?) IMHO, you should evaluate each option on case by case basic, for small brochure site or a weblog, Media Queries would be the answer; for sites that are heavy with many variations such as NYTimes, BBC, Amazon and other eCommerce sites, serve side detection with content negotiation/adaption is the way to go - and for this, Mobile First approach may not be the one-and-end-all answer. On a not so related note, I was following closely the touchscreen devices that manufacturers showcase at CES (2011 International Consumer Electronics Show) as I wanted to get a better idea what widths I should take into consideration for a mobile website I was building. Speaking of Mobile Web, do you consider iPad, Samsung Galaxy alike the mobile devices? Should you treat the site on these devices desktop or mobile version? iPad could be easier long as the touchscreen issue are taken care of, but for devices that the widths are smaller than iPad wider than 320 x 480, do you give it mobile version or desktop version? Media Queries could be the best answer, yet one needs to be reminded that these devices are sold by wireless carriers that uses 3G or 4G network (I am curious if they are to be used as giant mobile phone as well), and therefore there is bandwidth and cost concerns too. By the way, for those who are unaware of, you can download Samsung Galaxy simulator as a Andriod 3rd party add-on. Not sure if it's the first version though (too many bugs!), it runs very slow on my machine. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] CSS and h264 vs Flash
MS is on board but for vista windows 7 users only So ie pre ie9 is still going to be out there; I think that ie9 should be released as an xp version also the other browsers all make versions that work for xp and support html5; though though some things would only work on ie9 (pinning tasks) microsoft seem to be operating in a new light but I feel they could shine brighter; but maybe thats too optimistic - S On 29 September 2010 03:14, cat soul cats...@thinkplan.org wrote: that's pretty nice.. I've also been reading that MS is on board with the HTML5+ h264 combo as an alternative to Flash, so perhaps a critical mass is forming... I do feel that flash has its place, but that it was a mistake jumping in head first as the web seemed to do over flash so many years ago. cs On Sep 28, 2010, at 7:00 PM, Sam Sherlock wrote: transitions with css here http://timvandamme.com/ some icons use transition with css with in . vcard in firefox the icons just use hover active - S On 29 September 2010 01:12, cat soul cats...@thinkplan.org wrote: On Sep 28, 2010, at 5:01 PM, Sam Sherlock wrote: Kroc Camen video for everybody http://camendesign.com/code/video_for_everybody I think Steve Jobs is thinking about everyone using Safari browser (or another modern browser that support h.264 not ff3.6 but ff4 will maybe, chrome does) but in reality for now such modern browsers are not as wide spread as the number that will have the flash plugin even as much as many dislike flash I think many webusers will be indifferent about how the video is shown - basic users just want things to work flash is something that people know about at some level OK..I understand about the video part, but can CSS handle other aspects of what Flash is used for, such as animation and interactivity? cs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] CSS and h264 vs Flash
@patrick yes pinning tasks is an example of what does not need to be done - flourish added by microsoft for extra flare :) - bet that was the result of some blue sky idea in some board room / focus group; more reason for ie 9ish being on xp (50% users) @mike some of the eloquence/stats I was looking for - S On 29 September 2010 17:06, Foskett, Mike mike.fosk...@uk.tesco.com wrote: Strange, My answer would've been not yet. Too many differences in supported video codecs cross-browser. A bit of a mare in production unless you've a transcoding service on your media server. For the maximum audience: Flash 8 preferably (9 if full screen is a requirement), ON2 VP6 Codec, with HTML5 H.264+AAC+MP4 for apple products as back-up. Which is still one too many formats, not to forget that H.264 is licensed. The next generation will be H.264 in Flash v9.3 plus. One format albeit licensed for big and small alike woohoo! HTML5 video will only be truly usable when browsers and devices all support at least one universal codec. Probably webM, but we'll have to wait at least a 2 years for that. That's my tuppence worth anyway. regards. mike foskett -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Jason Arnold Sent: 29 September 2010 14:41 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS and h264 vs Flash On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 8:06 AM, cat soul cats...@thinkplan.org wrote: Flash offers a one-stop shopping tool, and as has been said, most/many people have the flash plug-in, so playback is more or less assured across the intertoobs. Except when dealing with the Mobile market where Flash isn't universal and if you care at all if your content plays on the iProducts (Pad, Pod, Phone which does have a decent marketshare in mobile devices) then you'll be looking at alternatives in addition to Flash anyway. So my question is: can CSS and/or Javascript plus *some* codec of movie/sound content replace Flash? Yes. If you encode in Ogg and H.264 and include a Flash player fallback for IE 9 then your video would be available in all the popular browsers and available on all mobile devices that can play video from websites. There's already many templates out there that includes all this (minus the video encodings obviously). -- Jason Arnold http://www.jasonarnold.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** This is a confidential email. Tesco may monitor and record all emails. The views expressed in this email are those of the sender and not Tesco. Tesco Stores Limited Company Number: 519500 Registered in England Registered Office: Tesco House, Delamare Road, Cheshunt, Hertfordshire EN8 9SL VAT Registration Number: GB 220 4302 31 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] CSS and h264 vs Flash
Kroc Camen video for everybody http://camendesign.com/code/video_for_everybody I think Steve Jobs is thinking about everyone using Safari browser (or another modern browser that support h.264 not ff3.6 but ff4 will maybe, chrome does) but in reality for now such modern browsers are not as wide spread as the number that will have the flash plugin even as much as many dislike flash I think many webusers will be indifferent about how the video is shown - basic users just want things to work flash is something that people know about at some level javascript (often) is part of doing what you can as developer to ensure that the UX is as seamless as possible (requiring little of the user) http://camendesign.com/code/video_for_everybody - S *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] CSS and h264 vs Flash
transitions with css here http://timvandamme.com/ some icons use transition with css with in . vcard in firefox the icons just use hover active - S On 29 September 2010 01:12, cat soul cats...@thinkplan.org wrote: On Sep 28, 2010, at 5:01 PM, Sam Sherlock wrote: Kroc Camen video for everybody http://camendesign.com/code/video_for_everybody I think Steve Jobs is thinking about everyone using Safari browser (or another modern browser that support h.264 not ff3.6 but ff4 will maybe, chrome does) but in reality for now such modern browsers are not as wide spread as the number that will have the flash plugin even as much as many dislike flash I think many webusers will be indifferent about how the video is shown - basic users just want things to work flash is something that people know about at some level OK..I understand about the video part, but can CSS handle other aspects of what Flash is used for, such as animation and interactivity? cs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Paul Irish/Divya Manian HTML5 Boilerplate
Dan I would look past per-site design choices such as that. and look into the neat and beneficial features which are many and various (also the example in use there is outdated compared with the code on github) the site has the initial release of html5boilerplate where as the github repo is stages ahead of this http://github.com/paulirish/html5-boilerplate/blob/master/index.html also it is not finished 100% some tweaks to go - mid aug apparently http://github.com/paulirish/html5-boilerplate/blob/master/index.html - S On 12 August 2010 14:24, Dan Freeman dan.free...@lexi.com wrote: Considering the link doesn't even look right in IE8, I'm not sure I'd use it to build anything. Dan Freeman Webmaster ERP Administrator 800.650.6506 (TOLL FREE) 330.655.0341 (DIRECT) www.lexi.com -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Tom Livingston Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 7:58 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Paul Irish/Divya Manian HTML5 Boilerplate Anyone have any thoughts on this? Worth a try? On a production site? http://html5boilerplate.com/ Looks pretty good to me... what say ye? -- Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic | ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** LEXI-COMP CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE The information in this electronic mail is intended for the named recipients only. Any use of this information by anyone other than the intended receiver is prohibited. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or other use of this message or its attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by replying to this electronic e-mail or by calling 330-650-6506. Please delete it from your computer. Thank you. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
Well I can't mention who I am referring to in a public discussion group but I know of more than a few who insist that ie has it right and are stubborn on this beyond all reason. I recall what things were like ten years ago - 12 years ago I have the same mindset but then my eyes were opened - I too have a good memory :) dinosaur developers do very much live in our times; as do systems with a lifespan that far exceed what they were intended for One such dd that I refer to created a CMS, impressive in its elegance too, but it focused on ie use only to the extent that it only worked in IE - the very same could have been achieved in better browsers and would have been all the better for it too consistent abysmal performance rather than graded browser support - I know which I prefer I remember 25 years ago. You'd have hated that. 25 years ago I was using Acorn Eletron playing Killer Gorilla from tape - S On 14 June 2010 16:59, st...@stevegibbings.co.uk st...@stevegibbings.co.ukwrote: It's not dinasaur developers. It's systems that were never intended to have the lifespan they have. The web was a very different place a decade ago. See I remember 25 years ago. You'd have hated that. Sent from my iPhone On 14 Jun 2010, at 16:34, Sam Sherlock sam.sherl...@gmail.com wrote: That's an industry education project in itself. indeed it is and Microsoft was forced to inform windows users of the choice of browsers a little while ago BBC Click reported that one XP user worried that this was the result of malware installed on his machine. Often users ignore system messages anyway there are a few things at play here with these ie dinosaurs 1. The industry is still quite young and its users are not that knowledgeable of choices and whats to be gained 2. Humans are reluctant to make changes even when the offer is free of charge - humans fear change; change requires effort on behalf of the user 'we have dedicated systems that reply on IE6' surely *rely upon *dinosaur users exist in dinosaur environments - these systems are created by retro thinking developers who still despite all the evidence to contrary think that IE browsers have the jump on other browsers or feel it more important for the system to be consistently abysmal across browsers rather than acceptable in IE6/7 and better in ie8 and vastly better in everything else. Ninja squads need to invade the premisses of ie6 users and install something better! using ie should be considered a health safety issue http://icant.co.uk/ie6-amelie/http://icant.co.uk/ie6-amelie/ - S On 14 June 2010 14:46, Stephen Gibbings st...@stevegibbings.co.uk st...@stevegibbings.co.uk wrote: *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.orgmemberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
Any bets for it being done in time to watch the 2018 World Cup on an HTML 5 video feed? in a ie browser without any fudging? my initial response was only if Google are in position to take over Microsoft before that date, but... http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2010/05/19/another-follow-up-on-html5-video-in-ie9.aspx ie9: A New Hope? for the time being ie6 remains a significant number too me much as I wish it did'nt - S On 12 June 2010 12:42, Phil Archer ph...@w3.org wrote: Again, interesting, stuff, Dave. Concerning your remark: If I was Microsoft I'd be quite worried that the IT support pros, influencers and developers have such a different make-up than the mainstream. I believe they are indeed concerned about this. AIUI they're a little fed up with the constant remarks on fora like this where we're broadly able to talk about the standards browsers and mean every browser except IE for which, everyone knows you need to put in workarounds. IE9 is going to take a big step towards changing that with support for SVG, XHTML and more. As for when IT departments get around to changing over to it, who can say? Any bets for it being done in time to watch the 2018 World Cup on an HTML 5 video feed? Phil. Dave Lane wrote: For what it's worth, some of our non-techie sites (with much smaller user numbers, as they're focused on the relatively tiny New Zealand market) are showing a slightly rosier picture over the past month: Advocacy website for cyclists (4544 visits): IE: 41.57% (IE6-15.09% 7-37.96% 8-46.96%) FF: 40.29% CHROME: 9.09% SAFARI: 7.68% OPERA: 0.62% IE6 = 6.27% Sports clothing (28,337 visits): IE: 49.92% (IE6-13.8% 7-27.06% 8-59.11%) FF: 24.87% CHROME: 6.20% SAFARI: 17.82% OPERA: 0.77% IE6 = 6.88% Brewers website (3,300 visits): IE: 45.97% (IE6-10.42% 7-30.72% 8-58.87%) FF: 30.06% CHROME: 11.27% SAFARI: 10.03% OPERA: 1.03% IE6 = 4.79% Tourism operator (4,041 visits): IE: 54.84% (IE6-11.60% 7-28.07% 8-60.24%) FF: 26.73% CHROME: 4.80% SAFARI: 12.77% OPERA: 0.42% IE6 = 6.36% For contrast, here're the stats for a tech company. IT services and software dev company (3,050 visits): IE: 15.02% (IE6-8.52% 7-19.87% 8-71.62%) FF: 56.20% CHROME: 18.52% SAFARI: 5.48% OPERA: 2.82% IE6 = 1.28% If I was Microsoft I'd be quite worried that the IT support pros, influencers and developers have such a different make-up than the mainstream. Cheers, Dave On 12/06/10 00:32, Lea de Groot wrote: On 11/06/10 9:32 PM, Foskett, Mike wrote: I just took a peek at our own stats for May 2010. A very large set limited to UK online shoppers only. And I couldn't agree less with the article. I have a couple of large .au 'mum and dad' sites (ie, not techie) and I have similar results to your .uk figures: Internet Explorer67.11% Firefox17.19% Safari 9.70% Chrome4.67% with specific IE figures of IE8.059.08% IE7.028.46% IE6.012.44% ie IE 6 is at 8.3% overall - lower than your numbers, but still worth testing for. Interestingly, I have iphone/ipod numbers at 2.77% and rising fast - I guess I better get those mobile versions up! Lea -- Phil Archer W3C Mobile Web Initiative http://www.w3.org/Mobile http://philarcher.org @philarcher1 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Re: Browser Backwards Compatibility -- How far back?
Old Mac Users are stuck I tried to a get a friends mac online and using Yahoo Mail (around the time a ymail dropped support of that browser) it had ie5 and nothing would work at all, no other options it was a second hand (supposedly cost effective machine) phazed into obselence. I frequently see IE6 on win xp in my logs, I have been in net cafes that refuse to update ie to 7 on xp (they did not express why). I am yearning for the day when IE6 can be removed from the equation, but I find following a few simple guidelines much of the trauma can be alleviated (I have just tested a basic liquid grid in ie6 and all is seeming well). I say to clients that I support browsers currently supported by respect vendors + IE6 on xp / win2k (but when more advanced features are aimed for these may work or not on such horrid browsers - and if so to a lesser degree) ~ Its been a while since I have seen win ie 5.x in a log of any of my sites The web is rapidly evolving, which make treeware pretty bad at keeping up. when at college 10+ years ago my lecturer advised to avoid books - since anything printed will need revision by the time its printed (it was seen as an extreme view then ~ still like books myself but I understood his gist) Going too far back prevents much progress ~ clients usually appreciate that Verify everything you read by seeing what others have to say in 'blogsphere'. There is discussion about the jQuery.com site not displaying correctly in IE7 currently the issue has not been identified as yet but the cause is thought to be a plugin/addon for the browsers. (thats something to be careful of when testing ~ if a client complains about display issues check what extensions to the browser are being used) @Sigurd - I am suprised to hear that Silverstripe administration supports IE6. I have been meaning to checkout Silverstripe having heard great things about it and what I have seen is very impressive indeed - S 2009/3/20 MichaelMD md...@spraci.com On Sun, 2009-03-15 at 21:10 +1300, Sigurd Magnusson wrote: Most websites we build at SilverStripe have IE 6.0 as a minimum, and even then, we're unpatiently anticipating the time when we can drop IE 6. I still see quite a few people using IE5 Mac (probably OS9 users stuck with that) in the server logs here and LOTS of IE6 ... so I think it will be a while somehow... *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] H1 and the img tag
ok - seo is a bit like voodoo to me the following sites seem to be contray to suggestion http://wordpress.org/ .com - h1 with text-indent: -1000px http://www.alistapart.com - h1 with img alt text same on various pages - a duplicate on all pages (AFAIS) http://www.zeldman.com - h1 with text-indent: -1000px Also I see plenty of sites that are marking the logo in a div rather than a h1 (Shaun Inman Todd Dominey) ie in accordance with the suggestions with Henrik's link and Darren's or am I looking at something the wrong way. Its late, my quick investigation maybe a little rash (perhaps I am jumping to conclusions) - anyway the more I see the more verity I find and more confused I get - S 2008/8/26 Henrik Madsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] I agree, beware SEO-wise. If anyone's interested in seeing what black-hat SEOs are actually doing in this respect, read this: http://www.igenerator.com.au/blog/2008/08/top-10-web-design-firms-use-black-hat-seo/ http://www.igenerator.com.au Henrik Madsen *Generator* +61 8 9387 1250 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.igenerator.com.au On 26/08/2008, at 7:49 AM, Darren Lovelock wrote: I'm not understanding why you would use a logo/img as an h1 tag? Unless you wanted to use a nice anti-aliased font for the h1 text? If that's the case then I would just use sifr. SEO-wise you could only implement this on the homepage, otherwise you would have a duplicated h1 on all your web pages (providing the image had the same alt text). I wouldn't recommend using different alt text either when using the same image sitewide, as search engines may see that as keyword stuffing. I would keep them separate and have the alt text on the logo as your company name. Then have unique h1's as normal text on each page. I used to use a div with text in it for the logo, then css to add a background image and text indent to move the text off-screen. I changed back to an img tag as the alt text is more powerful for SEO purposes. Darren Lovelock Munky Online Web Design http://www.munkyonline.co.uk T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Bennett Sent: 25 August 2008 23:07 To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org' Subject: RE: [WSG] H1 and the img tag Hi Michael, While that is possible, unfortunately the h1 text doesn't display when images are off and css is still in use. This is the issue many image replacement techniques sought to address. Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Centered List
have a look at http://www.accessify.com/tools-and-wizards/developer-tools/list-o-matic/ I think your going to need to set the width of the ol (and the li inbetween) set the margin of your ol to someing like margin: 5px auto; get firefox+firebug as it will allow you to test styles in firebug which you can then move to the actual css hth - S 2008/7/14 Tyrone Joseph [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi, This is my first post and I am fairly new to CSS. I'd like some help positioning a floated list. The image link is an example of that the design should look like ( http://www.datadial.net/test/bb-example.gif ). The problem I am having is that I can float the list items to get them to sit side by side but the list needs to be centred in the column. Some products will have fewer size options (ie. I don't know the total width). ol id=sizeList lia href=xs/a/li lia href=s/a/li lia href=m/a/li lia href=l/a/li lia href=xl/a/li lia href=2xl/a/li lia href=3xl/a/li /ol Any idea on how I should approach this would be welcome. Thanks Tyrone *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] input type image
chris's suggestion looks simluar to particletree's rediscovered button
element
button type='submitspanSubmit/span/button
http://particletree.com/features/rediscovering-the-button-element/
2008/7/15 Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Taco Fleur wrote:
I have a question in regards to styling a submit button.
I have the following HTML
input name=doSearch type=image id=btnGo value=GO
src=/certainedge/_resource/generic/image/btn_go.jpg alt=GO
Following is the CSS I used, which I hoped would change the image, but
it doesn't.
input#btnGo {
background:
url(/proximer/_resource/generic/image/btn_go.jpg)!important
top left no-repeat;
}
It probably works, but the background image is neatly covered by the
actual image of the button itself.
Would it be acceptable to just use a input of type submit and leave
the value empty?
input name=btnGo type=submit id=btnGo
Not really, as the value in the case of these buttons is the actual label
(that would, for instance, be read out by screen readers).
What are you actually trying to achieve?
P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
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Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
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Re: [WSG] Firefox 3
all I have to do is create had to do was create a new profile and set shortcuts to load ff3 with the new profile. heres some info http://blog.codefront.net/2007/08/20/how-to-have-firefox-3-and-firefox-2-running-at-the-same-time/ 2008/6/18 Sajan Franco [EMAIL PROTECTED]: It will replace the version 2 with the new one, and many of the plugins that works on version 2 gets disable since they aren't compatible. I did a mistake updating. Sajan On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:44 PM, Felix Miata [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2008/06/18 13:17 (GMT+0100) Paul Collins apparently typed: Does anyone know if it will replace your version of Firefox 2, or will it run side by side?! It doesn't have to. There are instructions on the mozilla.org developer pages for running as many concurrent versions of Gecko products as you wish. The particulars depend on your environment. Linux Mac Win don't all work exactly the same. Don't install as replacement before checking if extensions you depend on are ready for it. -- Where were you when I laid the earth's foudation?Matthew 7:12 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HTML special characters coding
up as a ? when it's unknown rather than mangled as ’ has caused me truma in the past. now I use UTF-8 aiming to entifyand quotes aswell as £ and such dealing with large amounts of content thats been created in a wyswyg editor can be quite an issue erronus classes nbsp; also some handle special chars better than others 2008/6/18 Matthew Holloway [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Andrew Cunningham wrote: LOL, i enjoyed the wording. Considering the document character set of HTML4 is Unicode, if it can't be displayed in UTF-8 in a browser, then it can't be displayed using entitiies or NCRs either ;) Generally I agree, although one good thing about entities (including NCRs of course) is that it'll typically come up as a ? when it's unknown rather than mangled as ’. So it'll break more gracefully. Also there can be other things involved other than the browser when writing HTML, such as bad proxies. I can't remember the name of the software but a few years ago an adblocker proxy that I installed on my parents machine would break UTF-8 horribly... of course that's the proxy's fault but entites would work around their bug. (I don't really have strong opinions either way though) -- .Matthew Holloway http://holloway.co.nz/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] A Great Example of Poor Accessibility
or try 64 squares http://64squar.es/ wish i had the time :) 2008/5/10 Svip [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Not only Mac users are locked out (of course, so are Linux users, etc.), but also users of older Windows. And you didn't even mention Vista! MSN in my opinion has too many users for the service it provides. And that service is horrible. Just recently they blocked youtube links on MSN. What's up with that? As for a good chess game, I suggest http://gameknot.com It is simple to use, works in every browser, and while I cannot exactly remember what it used, I think it was some sort of HTML form. Because gameknot allows up to several days of chess play. Of course, after it being an hour of your move, you get an email alerting you. Regards, Svip 2008/5/10 James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Today i wanted to play a friend in a game of chess. I have a Yahoo account so i decided to play him on Yahoo. Yahoo have recently upgraded their system and its causing errors for alot of users. It seems you need to a certain version of Flash to play ( I have Flash 9). After trying for about an hour to find a solution to the answer i decided to use the Java client to play chess (the old method). That also would not work and would not report any errors as to why. I have Java enabled, but it seemed to just hang as it loaded. After a while i thought forget it and went to MSN to play him in chess. I spent a while setting him up an account on MSN (he is a poor internet user). All worked fine ... for him. Im using a Mac, so when i went to the MSN site it said you need XP or 2000 to play and you need IE. Great! After 2 hours i gave up. I wanted to use Yahoo or MSN. My friend (who is old in his age) was getting annoyed and i was annoyed. We opted to leave it and meet up in the week for a game of chess. Personally i feel todays problems are a great example of poor accessibility. To conclude. Yahoo's new system has bugs that are affecting alot of people and are stopping people accessing their services. MSN are trying to create yet another centralized service where Mac users are locked out of their services. Yahoo's problems can be seen as teething problems but MSN's are ignorance. Ps. Sorry if there are spelling/grammer mistakes. I'm a little ill today and concerntration is not at its best. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
debugging is easier and the license fee is a lot lower :) its all to easy to end up a blind alley with flash also flash often allowed designers to ensure cross platform display Opera 9.5 looks great - very slick and dragonfly will be amazingly advantageous :) 2008/5/7 James Ellis [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Wed, 7 May 2008 02:35:51 pm Elizabeth Spiegel wrote: It can be great for getting immediate feedback without reloading a page e.g. building a customised bag at Timbuk2: http://www.timbuk2.com/tb2/products/bagbuilder Elizabeth Hi Yes, but that kind of functionality can easily be done with some AJAX know-how. e.g http://www.stripegenerator.com/ Really, from a developers POV, the benefit of Flash was to do the little http fetches from the server without loading the page -- what came to be known as AJAX. It could do it back in 1999 or whenever Flash 3 came out, in a rudimentary way. If you are using Flash just for that then JS/HTTP request can do it just as well, debugging is easier and the license fee is a lot lower :) That's why I stopped using Flash. For design, animation etc, Flash still has the edge although some of the recent SVG improvements are starting to erode that (like resizable SVG backgrounds in Opera 9.5) Cheers James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
iPhone can do better does'nt support flash :) 2008/5/7 Michael MD [EMAIL PROTECTED]: some BIG usability NO-NOs I see on a lot of flash sites. intro pages (one of my pet hates - I HATE waiting ... and I'm sure I'm not the only one! - they are pointless and should be BANNED! - if you reallly *must* then make sure there is a non-flash way to skip it) animations in navigation - yes flash can do animations really well - but don't misuse it by making navigation slow for users! (what about people on slow machines?) whole website as one huge swf - making people wait for the whole thing to download before they can see anything! ... this is so obviously bad you'd think it *should* be rare but sadly its still quite common out there - split it up into smaller files and give people something more interesting or useful to look at than loading... within a few seconds! (even on a slow dial-up modem!) - text you can't easily copy/paste (that wasn't actually really intended to be locked down) - if its something you may want people to use or pass on then it is silly to make it more difficult for them to copy/paste. eg If you want people to call you on your office phone or come to your store's street address - then why stop them from copying the number or address to their contact list? - will they bother retyping it and double checking to make sure they haven't got it wrong? probably not! well... actually ... if the main content is text why not publish it as html? flash can do some nice things but I don't think it should ever be used as a *replacement* for html or text! also - don't assume everyone's browser has flash player. eg: mobile phones - some of the more recent models *might* have a mobile flash player ... which btw might handle flash 6 content! - ok maybe an iPhone can do better .. but honestly how many of those do you see about? ... phone models more than about two years old? ... forget it! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
I take the point of view that web pages are created to communicate with your audience. thats how I see it too, content is king I myself often have javascript and flash diasabled, so long as the content is available to the audience. 2008/5/6 Sven Dowideit [EMAIL PROTECTED]: yup, but then I take the point of view that web pages are created to communicate with your audience. If people like me are part of your audience, flash is pretty much unsuitable. That doesn't mean there aren't audiences for whom flash is the right answer, just that thought and analysis are needed to make sure your communication medium is appropriate to both your message and your audience. No different really from writing your web content in Latin :} sven kate wrote: because users like Sven disable it by default No disrespect to Sven but that must be the pits to take the very long learning curve: Create the Flash: Then along comes 'A Visitor' and disable all your hard work..*doh Kate http://jungaling.com/bichons/ http://jungaling.com/Malaysia/ http://simplyborneo.com/gardenforums/ http://jungaling.com/katesplace/ - Original Message - *From:* Sam Sherlock mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org mailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Sent:* Tuesday, May 06, 2008 1:13 AM *Subject:* Re: [WSG] Full flash websites As many have already commented I apply caution when using flash (because of it creates extra work, because users like Sven disable it by default and much more besides) The thing is some clients care initially more for the visual appeal (things bouncing around etc) of websites and not for features that improve the accessibility or user experience overall. others have made points about ensuring content is available to all. In a lot of cases it is possible to display the same content in a no flash format (server side scripting helps a great deal - not writing script srcs or codeblocks to the page [setting this in a user setting session var]) I make use of swfObject to replace a summary of the content that the swf displays, often with links to further info of the extent of work produced by this can mushroom, and become unwieldy. admittedly this is much easier if the site is not full browser flash, but if the site is small and all the content is loaded in dynamically Flash can recreate (often poorly) things that are achieved with traditional html - deep linking And this is then an aspect of the site that must be cared for, increasing the overall complexity (and therefore potential err) - there if a lot to bear in mind here also there is shadowbox (by Michael Jackson [not the former jackson 5 pop sensation]) that does a real nice job in displaying all kinds of content lightbox (lokesh dhakar) style of the page - this is what Ben Buchanan was refering to I think - http://mjijackson.com/shadowbox/index.html - S 2008/5/6 Ben Buchanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: What do you people, professionals and hobby standardists think about full flash websites?? where is the usability and accessibility for flash in general?? Accessibility and search engine visibility of Flash in most cases is zero. I've only heard of one Flash site that was considered accessible and it made a lot of news at the time! Flash only reliably works for users with no physical or technical barriers; and search engines can't read Flash in any useful manner. I generally don't like the usability aspects either - that's subjective I guess, but I've found Flash is generally used when someone thought HTML didn't make them look cool enough. Which means they wanted lots of stuff to bounce and flash and so on ;) Essentially you should only ever add a Flash layer over the top of XHTML; and give users the choice between the two. Flash isn't evil, but *only offering Flash* is evil. -ben ----- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
Using some unobstrusive js effects much the same (and or better) can be made without flash http://simonwillison.net/static/2008/xtech/ which advises making a standard site that functions with basic html and present it with css, and then add additional functionality not my own work but an example of the what I am talking about http://interiors.davroc.co.uk/ 2008/5/7 Susie Gardner-Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I do think we also shouldn't forget that there are a lot of people out there who need to find a webpage attractive in order to make them stay and read the content. And some Flash(y) content can be useful/attractive. (Emphasis on 'can'!) Some people (probably a lot) really like that sort of stuff ... :) - susie On 7/5/08 5:03 AM, Sam Sherlock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I take the point of view that web pages are created to communicate with your audience. thats how I see it too, content is king I myself often have javascript and flash diasabled, so long as the content is available to the audience. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
that timbuk2 is great. wholeheartedly agree about the small fonts and poor contrast though this is designers getting carried away with things, and pleasing their own egos often I get asked by clients to create a flash intro for a site, with cinematic ambitions they describe what they had in mind 'text slides in..', '...musical intro plays'- etc Sometimes it sounds like people think it doesn't matter what a site looks like as long as it is accessible. But it does matter to the majority of people. I know that content is the ultimate thing, but if the site isn't presented in an attractive manner then a lot of (sighted) people won't stop to look. I personally would rarely bother looking at a site that had no styles and/or looked like a Word document or list or something. I don't think I'm alone here! Most of us live in a visual world. So we want/expect/need to see attractive things. its about balance; and finding the right middle ground.This is project specific. I make every site with three groupings in mind 1. client 2. intended audience 3. maintainer of site (sometimes not me, sometimes client or employee of client using CMS) 2008/5/7 Elizabeth Spiegel [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi all I've yet to see a full flash website I liked - too often they use small fonts and poor contrast; navigation is quite often difficult. I understand that accessibility has been improved, but haven't really explored it (and of course just because the tools are now available doesn't mean that developers necessarily use them, any more than they do in HTML). It can be great for getting immediate feedback without reloading a page e.g. building a customised bag at Timbuk2: http://www.timbuk2.com/tb2/products/bagbuilder Elizabeth -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kate Sent: Tuesday, 6 May 2008 6:30 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Full flash websites Hi, A forum I used to go to uesd to say some HTML and Flash. Maybe this site helps a little bit: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20001029.html Or: http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200610/full_flash_websites_and_seo/ Kate http://jungaling.com/bichons/ http://jungaling.com/Malaysia/ http://jungaling.com/katesplace/ - Original Message - From: Michael Persson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Cc: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:15 PM Subject: [WSG] Full flash websites The company I worl with has a big love for full flash websites and we have produced some very nice but heavy and slow ones. What do you people, professionals and hobby standardists think about full flash websites?? where is the usability and accessibility for flash in general?? I am personally and professionally against them as they cut of the usabiity, have bad accessibility and for me the navigation most often i very difficult and difficult to use. Michael Persson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1415 - Release Date: 05/05/2008 06:01 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
As many have already commented I apply caution when using flash (because of it creates extra work, because users like Sven disable it by default and much more besides) The thing is some clients care initially more for the visual appeal (things bouncing around etc) of websites and not for features that improve the accessibility or user experience overall. others have made points about ensuring content is available to all. In a lot of cases it is possible to display the same content in a no flash format (server side scripting helps a great deal - not writing script srcs or codeblocks to the page [setting this in a user setting session var]) I make use of swfObject to replace a summary of the content that the swf displays, often with links to further info of the extent of work produced by this can mushroom, and become unwieldy. admittedly this is much easier if the site is not full browser flash, but if the site is small and all the content is loaded in dynamically Flash can recreate (often poorly) things that are achieved with traditional html - deep linking And this is then an aspect of the site that must be cared for, increasing the overall complexity (and therefore potential err) - there if a lot to bear in mind here also there is shadowbox (by Michael Jackson [not the former jackson 5 pop sensation]) that does a real nice job in displaying all kinds of content lightbox (lokesh dhakar) style of the page - this is what Ben Buchanan was refering to I think - http://mjijackson.com/shadowbox/index.html - S 2008/5/6 Ben Buchanan [EMAIL PROTECTED]: What do you people, professionals and hobby standardists think about full flash websites?? where is the usability and accessibility for flash in general?? Accessibility and search engine visibility of Flash in most cases is zero. I've only heard of one Flash site that was considered accessible and it made a lot of news at the time! Flash only reliably works for users with no physical or technical barriers; and search engines can't read Flash in any useful manner. I generally don't like the usability aspects either - that's subjective I guess, but I've found Flash is generally used when someone thought HTML didn't make them look cool enough. Which means they wanted lots of stuff to bounce and flash and so on ;) Essentially you should only ever add a Flash layer over the top of XHTML; and give users the choice between the two. Flash isn't evil, but *only offering Flash* is evil. -ben -- --- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare
looks like another quagmire is about to open up; funny how I still feel that I am getting over ie6 2008/4/29 Dave Woods [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Don't fix or change anything in your site to be compatible with a beta version. The beta version is available so that developers can report problems to Microsoft so that any bugs can be fixed for the final release. By changing your code now, you're likely to find that you'll need to change it again when the final release of IE8 is made available. If you're already getting a significant number of IE8 users (which is probably unlikely) then do as Rahul suggests and use the meta tag to force IE7 rendering mode. Hope that helps? Dave -- http://www.dave-woods.co.uk 2008/4/29 Rahul Gonsalves [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 29-Apr-08, at 12:40 PM, Jens-Uwe Korff wrote: we just did some testing of our sites in IE8 beta and got some ahhhs and ohhhs - not because of its standard compliance, rather because all sites seem to be broken: logos disappeared, elements misplaced, Google maps blown up, etc. Dare I say: meta http-equiv=X-UA-Compatible content=IE=7 / Does that not give you enough time to fix the issues with the new layout engine and then remove it/set it to content=IE=8? Or have I misunderstood how IE works? I frequently do. Best, - Rahul. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] linking multiple CSS files
Additionally you can use something like CSSTidy in that case I am using cssTidy for just this. A simple php script that puts all required css in buffer and writes a single file used by the page. For JS I am using JSMin in the same way with gzip etags also loading times improve dramatically. 2008/4/28 Dennis Lapcewich [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Return Receipt Your Re: [WSG] linking multiple CSS files document: wasDennis Lapcewich/R6/USDAFS received by: at:04/28/2008 09:20:20 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] BBC in Beta
I have mixed feelings over this site, on first appearance I like the look esp the header and the colour changes Though I don't think its appropriate for the BBC, especially when alot of it seems to be a carbon copy of other sites. I hope there will be an option to theme the site 'classic' - so that it looks like the bbc site that I know and enjoy as is. its too clunky and makes poor use of space, whilst being wider it does not make effective use of the area. A different approach would enable text resizing as for that sunny image. Judging by today, greyer much much greyer. A proper english summer On 18/12/2007, Matthew Pennell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's not working at all via iPhone, strangely. - Matthew Sent from my iPhone On 18 Dec 2007, at 18:31, Kim Kruse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well they are on my computer! (we're talking about the 4 colored buttons that changed the colors of the page... right?) John Faulds skrev: Seems like someone is listening! The color buttons is gone No they're not. Unless you're referring to something different. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE6 problem
Have just checked. Its not clickable at moment. I have deleted and cleared the cache etc. On 14/05/07, Susie Gardner-Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Guys! You are wonderful!! I would never have thought of that – and still have no idea why that would make a difference! I've changed it on the site and it's fine in IE7. If you want to give it one last look in IE6 that'd be wonderful (but I am sure I can find someone somewhere here at UQ with IE6 if you can't!) Thank you so much!! - susie On 14/5/07 1:43 PM, Sam Sherlock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yep, for me too. sorry to say. However other pages are ok. also removing the image (for me in ie6) gets the first link (and not the others) working. and I'd have to say that that has me beat. and after further investigation removing the margin-bottom: -10px gets it working - S On 14/05/07, *John Faulds* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's not the links on the calendar that don't work - it's the links in the left nav. Not sure why but it's something to do with the h2 because taking it out fixes the problem. On Mon, 14 May 2007 12:58:37 +1000, Sam Sherlock [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: works fine in ff, opera ie on windows 2000 I click the beige links and get pdf's - S On 14/05/07, Susie Gardner-Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK, I've sorted out the textarea problem! Now it's just the links on the calendar page that aren't clickable ... ?! - susie On 14/5/07 12:04 PM, Susie Gardner-Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks again John. I had to rely on someone else to tell me about IE6 and that's what she said. Obviously something else for her! And thanks for your info on my incorrect use of forms (!) However ...Now that I've changed the tags, and hopefully aligned the textareas, something else has cropped up. (Doesn't it always?!) Now the last textarea on the form page is aligning right, and try what I may I can't bring it back. Can you see where I'm doing something wrong? And re the links on the calendar page - any thoughts on why they're not clickable? - susie On 14/5/07 11:05 AM, John Faulds [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not seeing the problems as you describe - the content appears in the same place in FF IE6 on both pages. There are couple of other problems in IE6 though: on the form page, your textareas are aligned right and not with the text above them and on the calendar page, none of the links in the left nav are clickable. You're also using legends incorrectly. There should only be one legend per fieldset which describes all the fields. The text associated with each textarea should be in a label tag instead. On Mon, 14 May 2007 10:27:46 +1000, Susie Gardner-Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi again Still on the same website ... Apparently on a couple of pages in IE6, the main content isn't starting till after the end of the leftnav div – ie. Further down the page. It is fine in IE7 and Firefox. And fine on Firefox and Safari on the Mac. The pages concerned have either got a form, or else a large graphic near the top of the content area. Example pages: http://www.tedi.uq.edu.au/CDIP/feedback.html Or http://www.tedi.uq.edu.au/CDIP/calendar/January.html Anyone know what the fix is for this? I wish there was one website where you could go and look up all the individual fixes for things ... I tend to learn things, and then forget them if I don't use them again quickly, so have to keep asking!! Cheers susie *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto
Re: [WSG] IE6 problem - more general
Hi,
I am like you merely trying to keep a grasp of the situation
I have glanced over this article today
http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2007/05/10/70-expert-ideas-for-better-css-coding/
featuring some ideas from Rachel Andrews.
and I hate to be the bearer of bad news but its still not clickable in IE6
- S
On 15/05/07, Susie Gardner-Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi there Kepler
Thank you!
I believe it's OK now.
I would really like to ask you how you know all this – how you keep it in
your head?!! Do you have pages and pages of stuff like this written down, or
what?!!!
For example: about making nav buttons clickable in IE7: why does the
container div need to be 'position: relative for IE7? And what if there
wasn't a container div? Would that make it not work at all?!
I really need to get a handle on how to keep all these things 'known' to
me! I've got a quite good book – The CSS Anthology, by Rachel Andrews. But
it's pre-IE7 ...
Any thoughts, suggestions would be great!
Thanks again ... :)
- susie
On 15/5/07 6:37 AM, Kepler Gelotte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Susan,
To make the navigation buttons clickable in IE7 you need to define the
container as position: relative:
#container {
position: relative;
}
Also the pseudo links should be defined for :link and :visited if you
define It for :hover. Try using these for the navigation definitions:
#leftNav a:link, #leftNav a:visited { /* instead of #leftNav a */
#level2nav a:link, #level2nav a:visited {/* instead of #level2nav
li a */
Regards,
Kepler
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Re: [WSG] IE6 problem
Hi,
something else has cropped up. (Doesn't it always?!)
and always when you least need it :)
you could try
textarea {
margin-left: -200px; /* though this would be best in an
IE-fixit.cssstylesheet using ie conditional comments */
width: 70%;
height: 12em;
font-family: helvetica, arial, geneva, sans-serif;
}
and the calendar is clickable for me in both firefox and inferior explorer
of course - someone may propose a more appropriate solution.
- S
On 14/05/07, Susie Gardner-Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Thanks again John. I had to rely on someone else to tell me about IE6 and
that's what she said. Obviously something else for her!
And thanks for your info on my incorrect use of forms (!)
However ...Now that I've changed the tags, and hopefully aligned the
textareas, something else has cropped up. (Doesn't it always?!)
Now the last textarea on the form page is aligning right, and try what I
may
I can't bring it back. Can you see where I'm doing something wrong?
And re the links on the calendar page - any thoughts on why they're not
clickable?
- susie
On 14/5/07 11:05 AM, John Faulds [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm not seeing the problems as you describe - the content appears in the
same place in FF IE6 on both pages. There are couple of other problems
in IE6 though: on the form page, your textareas are aligned right and
not
with the text above them and on the calendar page, none of the links in
the left nav are clickable.
You're also using legends incorrectly. There should only be one legend
per
fieldset which describes all the fields. The text associated with each
textarea should be in a label tag instead.
On Mon, 14 May 2007 10:27:46 +1000, Susie Gardner-Brown
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi again
Still on the same website ...
Apparently on a couple of pages in IE6, the main content isn¹t starting
till
after the end of the leftnav div ie. Further down the page. It is
fine
in
IE7 and Firefox. And fine on Firefox and Safari on the Mac. The pages
concerned have either got a form, or else a large graphic near the top
of
the content area.
Example pages:
http://www.tedi.uq.edu.au/CDIP/feedback.html
Or
http://www.tedi.uq.edu.au/CDIP/calendar/January.html
Anyone know what the fix is for this?
I wish there was one website where you could go and look up all the
individual fixes for things ... I tend to learn things, and then forget
them
if I don¹t use them again quickly, so have to keep asking!!
Cheers
susie
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Re: [WSG] IE6 problem
works fine in ff, opera ie on windows 2000 I click the beige links and get pdf's - S On 14/05/07, Susie Gardner-Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK, I've sorted out the textarea problem! Now it's just the links on the calendar page that aren't clickable ... ?! - susie On 14/5/07 12:04 PM, Susie Gardner-Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks again John. I had to rely on someone else to tell me about IE6 and that's what she said. Obviously something else for her! And thanks for your info on my incorrect use of forms (!) However ...Now that I've changed the tags, and hopefully aligned the textareas, something else has cropped up. (Doesn't it always?!) Now the last textarea on the form page is aligning right, and try what I may I can't bring it back. Can you see where I'm doing something wrong? And re the links on the calendar page - any thoughts on why they're not clickable? - susie On 14/5/07 11:05 AM, John Faulds [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not seeing the problems as you describe - the content appears in the same place in FF IE6 on both pages. There are couple of other problems in IE6 though: on the form page, your textareas are aligned right and not with the text above them and on the calendar page, none of the links in the left nav are clickable. You're also using legends incorrectly. There should only be one legend per fieldset which describes all the fields. The text associated with each textarea should be in a label tag instead. On Mon, 14 May 2007 10:27:46 +1000, Susie Gardner-Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi again Still on the same website ... Apparently on a couple of pages in IE6, the main content isn¹t starting till after the end of the leftnav div ie. Further down the page. It is fine in IE7 and Firefox. And fine on Firefox and Safari on the Mac. The pages concerned have either got a form, or else a large graphic near the top of the content area. Example pages: http://www.tedi.uq.edu.au/CDIP/feedback.html Or http://www.tedi.uq.edu.au/CDIP/calendar/January.html Anyone know what the fix is for this? I wish there was one website where you could go and look up all the individual fixes for things ... I tend to learn things, and then forget them if I don¹t use them again quickly, so have to keep asking!! Cheers susie *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE6 problem
Yep, for me too. sorry to say. However other pages are ok. also removing the image (for me in ie6) gets the first link (and not the others) working. and I'd have to say that that has me beat. and after further investigation removing the margin-bottom: -10px gets it working - S On 14/05/07, John Faulds [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's not the links on the calendar that don't work - it's the links in the left nav. Not sure why but it's something to do with the h2 because taking it out fixes the problem. On Mon, 14 May 2007 12:58:37 +1000, Sam Sherlock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: works fine in ff, opera ie on windows 2000 I click the beige links and get pdf's - S On 14/05/07, Susie Gardner-Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK, I've sorted out the textarea problem! Now it's just the links on the calendar page that aren't clickable ... ?! - susie On 14/5/07 12:04 PM, Susie Gardner-Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks again John. I had to rely on someone else to tell me about IE6 and that's what she said. Obviously something else for her! And thanks for your info on my incorrect use of forms (!) However ...Now that I've changed the tags, and hopefully aligned the textareas, something else has cropped up. (Doesn't it always?!) Now the last textarea on the form page is aligning right, and try what I may I can't bring it back. Can you see where I'm doing something wrong? And re the links on the calendar page - any thoughts on why they're not clickable? - susie On 14/5/07 11:05 AM, John Faulds [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not seeing the problems as you describe - the content appears in the same place in FF IE6 on both pages. There are couple of other problems in IE6 though: on the form page, your textareas are aligned right and not with the text above them and on the calendar page, none of the links in the left nav are clickable. You're also using legends incorrectly. There should only be one legend per fieldset which describes all the fields. The text associated with each textarea should be in a label tag instead. On Mon, 14 May 2007 10:27:46 +1000, Susie Gardner-Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi again Still on the same website ... Apparently on a couple of pages in IE6, the main content isn¹t starting till after the end of the leftnav div ie. Further down the page. It is fine in IE7 and Firefox. And fine on Firefox and Safari on the Mac. The pages concerned have either got a form, or else a large graphic near the top of the content area. Example pages: http://www.tedi.uq.edu.au/CDIP/feedback.html Or http://www.tedi.uq.edu.au/CDIP/calendar/January.html Anyone know what the fix is for this? I wish there was one website where you could go and look up all the individual fixes for things ... I tend to learn things, and then forget them if I don¹t use them again quickly, so have to keep asking!! Cheers susie *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Floating Divs Over Flash
wmode=transparent is something you want to look at earlier versions of safari does not support that, also you have issues if there is active content in the flash which competes for space with active content in divs that over lap. I would curb your enthusiasm as much as possible so as not to get carried away, keep is simple On 30/04/07, John Gribben [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, Does anyone have any experience floating HTML elements over Flash via absolutely-positioned divs? I know that this is possible with the most up-to-date browsers, but I'm not aware of how wise this is in terms of backward-compatibility. Can anyone point to successful examples of this? Thanks, John *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] flash z-index conflict
I came across this the other day also . Since flash was colliding with my use of sweet titles. I was advised to set wmode to transparent, I works I am not begruding that but is there any logic to this. Surley wmode would just allow you to see through the flash object if set to transparent. Are there any draw backs to using wmode=transparent? I thought flash was displayed above the browser via the system and this was why flash content was always displayed above other content. is this just one of those odd things sent to try us?? Peter Ottery wrote: Ted wrote: -- my lovely flash movie thinks it's the coolest thing on the planet and wants to sit on top of my lovely dropdown box. in the html code that calls your flash movie, add this: param name=WMode value=transparent let us know how you go pete ottery ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Invisable Text (only in IE)
Hi, A while back I made a site which had invisable text in IE, this was not intended I could not figure out why either I had never seen it before nor since until it happened on Snook.ca Below is a screen shot from an article on snook. I have cropped the same area of the screen in three different shots. The first is how the page loads can''t see the text, next text appears after selecting, (notice the title in green partly revealed) and in the next shot its all there. Also if you alt tab away from the browser page and then back its gone again!! This is crazy. I thought I had made a sloppy mistake though I was sure I had'nt, is there a name for this bug is there a way to resolve it for those users who (ignorantly) persist with inferior explorer? here the screen shot link http://s107442706.websitehome.co.uk/ie_text_madness.png atb - Sam ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] prevent cropping of a div
I have a wrapper div containing a base display I want the base display to extend to the full height of document or screen which ever is greater However the background image in the base display is cropped when scrolling is required this only occurs in FF, Safari and Opera - not in IE. I have tried using borders instead of background image on the base display no avail. I am seeking the impossible?? link below, have checked the mark css both are vaild. http://www.danceordie.co.uk/v7/index7.html thanks in advance - Sam ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] web developer toolbar for IE!!!!
I have just installed the web developer tool bar for internet explorer http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=e59c3964-672d-4511-bb3e-2d5e1db91038displaylang=en its gonna come in real handy for me, I have'nt seen a post on WSG atb - S ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] best way to style addresses
Example: ADDRESS Newsletter editorBR J.R. BrownBR 8723 Buena Vista, Smallville, CT 01234BR Tel: +1 (123) 456 7890 /ADDRESS with whatever styling provided by CSS you care for. for more details see the link below http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html tee wrote: Hi there, I am working on a page that involves with hundred of address in different locations/cities. What is the best way to do? unordered list, definition list or table data? I am thinking to make two columns for address. Did a similar page sometimes ago with unordered list with two columns floated, because some address are 4 lines, some are 3, the result wasn't good. Thanks! tee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE on the MAC is history
"The current version of IE for Macs is effectively three years old, making it an outdated browser compared to its Windows equivalent." like the current version of IE on windows is not outdated?! Richard Stephenson wrote: Well you have probably all heard about this already but Microsoft is stopping support for IE on the Mac. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4542750.stm http://www.microsoft.com/mac/products/internetexplorer/internetexplorer.aspx?pid=internetexplorer http://www.webstandards.org/ but does it mean we can stop coding for it now or if not how long do we carry on? Richard Stephenson -- DonkeyMagic: Website design development http://www.donkeymagic.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] HTML Color Combo Chooser - extremely well made
no need for replies just thought this would be of use to many of you http://www.siteprocentral.com/cgi-bin/feed/feed.cgi all the best - S ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Hacks / Work Arounds for IE Mac and Old er IE Pc versions
I have noticed that
some repeated background are not displaying in IE 5.5 since everything
else works I was wondering if the background issue could be resolved?
Also the perspective
from IE Mac is messy the styles are not applied or have obscure
results. I am not on mac so testing is a little harder
I believe that in other
circumstances everything works fine
the link is
www.phuturetrax.co.uk/v1/home/ - takes you straight in
I would be interested
to hear suggestions on methods for improving display across platformss
/ browsers
- IE Mac - OS9
- IE Mac - OSX
- other OS X
broswers (I think everything works fine)
I was thinking of using an overriding style sheet for IE Mac using the
following hack
/* IE5/Mac Only Styles
Uses the IE5/Mac Band Pass Filter:
http://stopdesign.com/examples/ie5mac-bpf/
--- */
/*\*//*/
@import url("ie5mac.css");
/**/
what are the groups thoughts on this hack? does it work? is there a better way?
Thanks in advance, Sam S
Re: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsl etter!
Hi, Just to put the cat amongst the peigons - some of the points raised are valid IMHO. and by the by so is the mark up. I think he is off mark on the use of styles My position is about temperance - moderation ‘reality in the field’ and not some ivory-tower specification - the reality and work arounds required to compensate for differences in implementation CSS Hacks for example The Web Standards have yet to be properly implemented in the majority of the browsers BEING USED - namely Internet Explorer this is partly why I dub IE inferior explorer, naughty-scape a fraise I seldom use since netscape 4.X is a beast rarely encountered in the wild Since when are using Floats for page-level layout, semantically correct? I disagree with him here, since floating is applied by style and is separate from content I think this is a contracdiction since previouly To not use CSS - rather I am saying to use it when it makes sense… and in the case of floating to style the layout I would say that this is appropriate use of style - using it here makes sense his contracdiction continues margins... to create page-level layouts. Again, like floats, this is semantically incorrect, just like HTML tables the point of style - the junk/old skool use is shims / transparent gif - I don't like such sites even when I make 'em Some times designers can procrastinate pontificate over semantics (and many other things) delaying the sites completion inflating the cost. Rob Wilson http://www.websitesinbusiness.co.uk Says: September 26th, 2005 at 3:52 am http://www.killersites.com/blog/2005/silly-nerds-the-web-standards-are-for-browsers/#comment-33 The real point lost in the standards debate is that everyone just wants things to work properly and consistently. my clients do, I do, visitors to sites I make do Mac IE such a pain, with standards css layouts - Hacks ahoy me lad! Win IE - what a pain Producing visual consistantly is a long road with tables+shims Using CSS I find things always crop up. odd spaces here and there - a short road, can become a long road. Marco http://www.i-marco.nl/weblog/ Says: September 26th, 2005 at 4:56 am http://www.killersites.com/blog/2005/silly-nerds-the-web-standards-are-for-browsers/#comment-34 - lighter in amount of code - easy to read on other devices than PC’s with browsers - more accessible - much better search engine optimized from the ground up I agree with this also, its a pain when formating gone bad in a browser often IE Mac/Win Rooting out the problem in the CSS to hack compliance is tedious stressful client wants it done yesterday Joshua Street http://www.joahua.com/blog/ Says: September 26th, 2005 at 5:05 am http://www.killersites.com/blog/2005/silly-nerds-the-web-standards-are-for-browsers/#comment-35 CSS bears no meaning, it’s just a presentational hook explains where he is off base on the CSS - its the hack thats madness and often more tricky than table + shims Clients see competitiors sites with tables and when they see them on any browser they are consistent (sometimes consistantly bad!! IMHO but consistent Stefan Mischook http://www.killersites.com Says: September 26th, 2005 at 10:47 am http://www.killersites.com/blog/2005/silly-nerds-the-web-standards-are-for-browsers/#comment-43 *What is broken (in a pratical sense,) with the Web Standards?* 1. 60% to 80% of the browsers being used are buggy when it comes to CSSP techniques we have to use. 2. The model for positioning with CSS is now weak. I can’t wait for the CSS3 multi-column spec http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-multicol/to come of age. but browser uptake will be somewhere behind. and putting a message for users this site looks better in a standards compliant browser is just as annnoying (to the user in turn the site owner) as this site looks better in ie since this is a discussion list I thought we might discuss the points atb - Sam Herrod, Lisa wrote: I think he's really just trying to stir up something controversial and attract people to his site. Surely anyone who was really serious about their own reputation and business would actually think about what they were saying, and research their point(less) before posting it... wouldn't they? -Original Message- From: Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 26 September 2005 8:44 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsletter! -Original Message- From: Craig Rippon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 26 September 2005 7:44 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsletter! Just got this from a Killersites.com, what do you think of the article The Web Standards Lie: How the Web Standards movement has gone too far. http://www.killersites.com/newsletters/lt/t_go.php?i=10e=MTI
Re: [WSG] IFR- what is the latest version?
Any site using sIFR in FF cramps the text into an unreadable mass, the flash is not used and I am left with illegible text I have flash block installed, sIFR detects flash block and does not display the flash. The css leaves he text unreadable is this only me? Drake, Ted C. wrote: Hi All I have a quick question. I am looking for the latest version of using flash to replace header text. Is this the best approach? My feeble mind remembers an improved version out there in standardista-space. http://www.shauninman.com/plete/2004/04/ifr-revisited-and-revised Thanks Ted www.tdrake.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Using CSS for Flash backgrounds
or so sublte its unnoticable and it increases the overall complexity of the site SS kvnmcwebn wrote: 'And I agree Sam, having movement like that behind text is one of the worst things you can do.' I think that was meant as an example. If this trick is used in a more ambiant way it could be really useful. Maybe just have some image substitution for opera until a solution is found. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Using CSS for Flash backgrounds
I thought it was not possible, since flash is suppose to be rendered outside the browser and place on top by the OS at least for windows anyway. I use flash some times and am not dead against it, I viewed you example in disbelief not expecting it to work I did in IE. I think it would in FF, but I have flash blocker install (I don't like flash always) It also did in Opera too Having said that its a really Bad idea to progress and use it in a site. I expect your going to get alarmed responses to this post Buzy backgrounds make text hard to read. simple fact. Movement is buzy. The question this post also raises in when is it time to tell the client that they are asking for something that is detremental to the site overall. heres a list of people I consider when making a site 1. The User 2. Site Owner 3. Site Maintainer anyway it was interesting, off the wall aswell, atb - S Jon Dawson wrote: Hello all, I read recently that it wasn't possible to have flash backgrounds so I thought I'd give it a go. Turns out it is possible but it won't work in Opera and I'm curious as to why it won't. http://www.jomni.com/sandbox/flash_bg/ Any ideas? Thanks, Jon ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE problem with ?xml version=1.0 encoding=iso-8859-1?
You can leave out the xml prolog, its IE messing things up again (yet again - over and over) if you choose to put it in IE (aka inferior explorer) will use quirksmode and ignore all mannor of things such as absolute positioning, and a whole raft of other things, other compliant browsers will be fine and respond according to the rule book. sam Duncan Stigwood wrote: HELP! Tidy puts in ?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1"? which I think I understand is the Document Character Set, i.e. V. important. However having it in my document makes IE screw up all absolute positioning!! What am I doing wrong? Thanks guys ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Sliced Image Dilema
I think your question should be rephrazed a little table based sliced image html (as seen in david seaguls book Killer Websites) Vs Webstandard 'Tableless' CSS design table based sliced image layout pros easy to produce consistant layout may even use images instead of text (at the expense of accessibilty) cons (too many to list) inaccessiable large file sizes (hence longer to download, greater cost of ownership etc) ... Webstandard 'Tableless' CSS design pros (too many to list) seach engines crawl the site and index information more appropriately greater file economy (elements can be reused, many elements can be removed) seperation of style and content (makes managing the site really simple. Really, really simple) present the same page of mark up to various devices (eg Desktops, handhelds, phones, PDA) ... cons older defunked browsers on anceint machines display unformatted information (even this has its advantages) requires a little more attension in production stages (this depend on who elaborate the design is) atb Sam Jeff D. Reid wrote: Can anyone here please post urls to some reading regarding the use of sliced images in building a website vs using CSS instead. Kind of a "pros and cons" type of paper. Thanks Jeff D. Reid MIS Department Davitt-Hanser Music Company Cincinnati, OH http://www.bcrich.com http://www.kustom.com http://www.olpguitars.com Owner ROMDev Cincinnati, OH http://www.romdev.com http://www.patandjeff.com "A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history - with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." -Mitch Ratliffe-
Re: [WSG] A web site programming question
Hi, You should check out the creamweaver task force sit There are a number of adjustments and customisations you'll need to make http://webstandards.org/act/campaign/dwtf/ atb Sam Angus at InfoForce Services wrote: I do not know if this is off topic for this list. Just incase please reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED]. Thank you. I am a web site designer that hand codes with EditPlus and like to build header and footer files (basic template(. I am about to start working with an individual that uses FrontPage for web site design. I am not impressed with WYSIWYG editors and FrontPage even less. I am looking at purchaseing DreamWeaver for future web site design. What would be your advice to ensure that everything meets web standards? Angus MacKinnon MacKinnon Crest Saying Latin - Audentes Fortuna Juvat English - Fortune Assists The Daring Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc. 2nd Vice president Choroideremia Research Foundation Canada Inc. 1st Vice President http://www.choroideremia.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] firefox for OS9?
As far as I know web browsers for os9 are limited however against my expectations you should be able to get a build of firefox / mozilla here http://www.mozilla.org/download.html (scroll to the bottom of the page) safari camino are only supported in osX as far as I know. atb Sam Drake, Ted C. wrote: Sorry for a possibly off-topic post. We have a client on our intranet that needs to look at our site on OS9.2. I couldn't find information on the Firefox web site about compatibility with this platform. Does anyone know where I could send this person for more advice? I did find the Opera version for her. http://www.opera.com/download/index.dml?platform=macver=6.03 I'd like to give her both options. Is there a Safari version for OS9? Thanks You can send a response off-list to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ted www.tdrake.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Flash and Standards
I have been using FlashObject for sometime now, indeed I have posted here before asking what members of the list think of the technique. You may be interested to know that makepovertyhistory.org uses the flashObject technique, as an alternative there is also ufo http://www.bobbyvandersluis.com/ufo/ atbS Bruce wrote: http://blog.deconcept.com/flashobject/ Typically, I found this 2 minutes after sending above, is this the answer to flash and standards? Thanks in advance Bruce Prochanu BKDesign Solutions - Original Message - *From:* Bruce mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org mailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Sent:* Friday, August 05, 2005 5:19 PM *Subject:* [WSG] Flash and Standards Hi all, I'm sure this has been covered someplace, but when actually running into it on a busy schedule...you know the rest. A simple flash button for audio, from wimpy. Validator says: There is no attribute for: embed src= Nor for: quality, name, width, height, pluginsPage, and of course embed is undefined. At about this point one has a tendency to throw out webstandards completely or the demo. Several hours of fiddling with this didn't help. Not to blame webstandards for my lack of knowledge, but...sheesh. Any ideas besides taking a 2 month long course? Does Macromedia have a place to make their code work with Valid CSS? Bruce Prochnau BKDesign Solutions ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] a few more issues with page layout with definition list
i spotted this in the css
div#thumbnailheaders dt dd {float:right; width:100px;}
should'nt it be
div#thumbnailheaders dl dd {float:right; width:100px;}
atbSam
Rachel Radford wrote:
There are many ways of making a css rule so that different browsers see it
differently (do a google search for css filters...) but the way I do it
would be like this:
div#maincontent_image{/*used as a holder and placement for main images which
appear on a page*/
float:left;
width:214px;
height:366px;
border-right:1px solid #333;
margin:0 1.5em 0 0;/*top margin for IE*/
background-color:#363;
}
div#maincontentdiv#maincontent_image{/*for FF*/
margin-top:-1.14em;
}
Because IE doesn't understand the child selector so it will ignore that
rule.
It's looking mint in FF! Good work!!
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Bruce Gilbert
Sent: Friday, 5 August 2005 10:25 a.m.
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] a few more issues with page layout with definition list
On 8/4/05, Rachel Radford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Bruce,
It's looking good but quite different between FF and IE...
Try putting a negative top margin on the image with the hand and key...
that
should fix that problem for Firefox. But you might need to make it
conditional so that IE 6 won't do it too. From a design point of view
perhaps a background colour on the div id=maincontent_image so that you
don't get the green colour below the image and so you create a visual
column??
Hey Rachel and group,
thanks for the tip about the neg. margin. Looks good in FF now but it
did mess up IE. What would a conditional statement for IE 6 consist
of?
here is the CSS in question:
div#maincontent_image{/*used as a holder and placement for main images
which appear on a page*/
float:left;
width:214px;
height:366px;
border-right:1px solid #333;
margin:-1.14em 1.5em 0 0;
background-color:#363;
}
http://www.wealthdevelopmentmortgage.com/test/test_file_home.htm
http://www.wealthdevelopmentmortgage.com/test/WDM.css
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Re: [WSG] Firefox float/clear:both ¿bug?
Hi
I have been using the following:
/* clear this fix */
.clearThis:after {
content: .;
display: block;
height: 0;
clear: both;
visibility: hidden;
}
/* Hides from IE-mac \*/
* html .clearThis {height: 1%;}
/* End hide from IE-mac */
more information at
http://www.positioniseverything.net/easyclearing.html
odd behavior in safari
Julián Landerreche wrote:
If I remove the second rule (or remove the set of properties), the
page is displayed correctly.
No, it doesnt display correctly
It seems that the empty div must have some content (like .) to clear
the floated div.
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Re: [WSG] circodeliaproducciones.com - thoughts on this site
thanks for the responses, agreed that the header navigation is odd, should be easy to alter though as should the odd order of the headers I find myself often using pixel sizes for fonts, a habit I am trying to break (honest - an owen briggs article will help me plus a few google searchs and of course time) personally I find it strange that he has choosen to use both sIFR and flashObject atb Sam Gunlaug Sørtun wrote: sam sherlock wrote: I happened acrosss this site on stylegala. http://www.circodeliaproducciones.com/ I would like to know what the list members think of the site... Looking good in some browsers - but can't take any stress. - My Firefox doesn't like it. - Opera 8... not too bad. - Relying on font-sizes in pixels (mostly) which breaks badly in IE/win (and in all other browsers also, of course) if visitors like to have some say in the matter. - I regard this as misuse of headlines: h2a href=index.phpHome .01/a/h2 h2a href=circodel... /a/h2 h2a href=circodel... /a/h2 h2a href=circodel... /a/h2 h2a href=circodel... /a/h2 ...should have been a list, IMO. --- Conclusion: this looks like a page that hasn't been tested well across browser-land. Might have turned out a lot better if it were... regards Georg ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] circodeliaproducciones.com - thoughts on this site
I happened acrosss this site on stylegala. http://www.circodeliaproducciones.com/ I would like to know what the list members think of the site critism / praise and other comments atb - Sam ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] circodeliaproducciones.com - thoughts on this site
it looks unformated with styles disabled, as do any css driven sites, specifically what looks awful? I think the only issue with css turned off is that the logo is a transparent gif which looks bad on white bkgd everything else looks fine to me (as far as unformated goes) any other thoughts, S Zulema wrote: I think it's great, but it looks awful with CSS turned off :S. Works fine w/o JavaScript. It prints ok too. One page I tested had errors. http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1uri=http%3A//www.circodeliaproducciones.com/circodelia_producciones_artisticas_trabajos_clientes.php ciao, Zulema Z u l e m a O r t i z w e b d e s i g n e r email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] website : http://zoblue.com/ weblog : http://blog.zoblue.com/ browser : http://getfirefox.com/ sam sherlock wrote: I happened acrosss this site on stylegala. http://www.circodeliaproducciones.com/ I would like to know what the list members think of the site critism / praise and other comments atb - Sam ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] circodeliaproducciones.com - thoughts on this site
its not very in depth piece of critism, the site users flash (which may be why you don't like it) I find that clients like flash ask for it and demand it, they don't know of webstandards i am researching method of marrying the two disciplines (and indeed the wider array of web disciplines) I have also found this UFO http://www.bobbyvandersluis.com/ufo/ which impresses me greatly - silent javascript different sites require different techniques every site i make uses flash - I don;t want this to be at the expense of webstandards and the benefits they behold I strive fourth with my aims and research can members be descriptive with critism? please many thanks Sam David Laakso wrote: sam sherlock wrote: I happened acrosss this site on stylegala. http://www.circodeliaproducciones.com/ I would like to know what the list members think of the site Not much. critism / praise and other comments atb - Sam Regards, David Laakso ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] javascript question - body onload events question
I believe that you need to do something like the following
window. {
stripe('playlist', '#fff', '#edf3fe');
}
atb S
Drake, Ted C. wrote:
Hi All
I've been trying to get a straight answer for this question from our
_javascript_ person but haven't gotten it yet. I hope this is on-topic.
Many of us are already using the great Zebra Tables from Alistapart.com
It requires an onload event for the body tag and to include a link to the
_javascript_ file. This in itself is easy enough. However, our current site
unfortunately has the body tag in an include. This would mean every page
would have the body onload event whether or not it had a link to the
_javascript_ file and/or a table worth striping.
Here are my questions for you.
1. Does it hurt to have an onload event without a link to the _javascript_?
This assumes we add the link on pages that need it.
2. Are there any performance issues if the body onload event is added and
the link to the _javascript_ is added, yet the page has no table worth
striping? This particular script is common enough to be analyzed. But in
general is this an issue?
I need to make a decision on this as soon as possible and any help is much
appreciated.
The pages are html tag soup. We are beginning our conversion with semantic
coding of the content and new projects are using XHTML 1.0 transitional.
Thanks again.
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Re: [WSG] Site Check Win 2000
bullet proof here also Dean | eCreate wrote: If anybody out there has Win 2000 running IE6 could you check this URL: http://www.stthomasaquinasacademy.org/ I am getting one report that it is loading but then hanging up IE. Thanks, Dean ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] clearfixing
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rowan Lewis wrote: Or how about the much simpler more correct method? http://www.quirksmode.org/css/clearing.html is there something wrong with standards mode? dwain thanks to all you sugestions on this 1 - great help atb Sam ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] clearfixing
I found this CSS on a site www.kiss100.com quite interested to know how it
behaves in browsers, though it is heavy javascript
I often use a .reset class which i gather is to serve the same purpose via a
different approach.
.clearfix:after {
content: .;
display: block;
height: 0;
clear: both;
visibility: hidden;
}
.clearfix {
display: inline-block;
}
/* Holly Hack Targets IE Win only \*/
* html .clearfix {height: 1%;}
.clearfix {display: block;}
/* End Holly Hack */
the reset class that i have been using
intention is to put a minimal size block below a container and have other
containers flow below that without a great deal of space
or bumping
.reset {
display: block;
clear: both;
font-size: 1px;
height: 1px;
line-height: 1px;
margin: 0;
}
I notice that I am having a few troubles with ie5.5 which I think are fixable
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[WSG] web stanards detection - is it possible?
What I would like to be able to do is detect to see if the user has the proper support for web standards and if not redirect them to a version of the site using old skool junk HTML --- Owen Briggs used a style class named .ahem set to display: hidden which links user to alternative content http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/box_lesson/index.html -- of course i am seeking to make this whole thing graceful and silent, ie users don't have to be aware or made aware of thier inefior browser just get redirected. So I am wondering: what the WSG members think of the idea? has something like this been made? atb Sam ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] web stanards detection - is it possible?
Thanks for the responses. I agree with the points being made so far I am relucant to maintain two sites (actually I am using PHP to rebuild the junk from the XHTML semantic site and will be adding a full flash version too :) but this is not a php list ) Bert Doorn wrote: Why? What benefit does anyone (developer, site owner, 1 visitor in a million) gain from that junk HTML? Its down to what users are expecting really. The site owner and visitor are not expecting a plain unformated site Bert Doorn wrote: Just hide the CSS they don't understand and give them a plain-vanilla site. They'll get used to it as more and more sites go down that path. I hope we get there soon Bob McClelland wrote: You can easily chack if someone's browser has DOM support... and this will redirect the user to an alternative html file of your choice: some folk suggest that the user upgrades and provides link(s) accordingly, some redirect to a basic page. However, in the long run, it isn't worth it, as the others have said. Just let the page degrade gracefully in old browsers. --- new resolution Basic Splash Page that degrades (though in my case it can't degrade too much) directing the user to a site more suited to them (with some PHP trickery and a list of Bad Browsers) I don't want to emabrk upon a a tangent taking us off the focus of this list, lets say I had a list of known bad browsers and they get put to Junk/Old Skool site and all others go to the full xhtml experience (others later can view the full flash experience) Since this is a music media site the main user base are expecting glitz n glamour, bells n whisltes a plenty. Not giving them this is against the wishes of the site owner. The other alternative is to rule out webstandards for thhis project. which woul mean ruling out the benefits also - site owner would enjoy these, as would visitor, as would I atb egar to see what you think S Bert Doorn wrote: G'day What I would like to be able to do is detect to see if the user has the proper support for web standards and if not redirect them to a version of the site using old skool junk HTML Why? What benefit does anyone (developer, site owner, 1 visitor in a million) gain from that junk HTML? Owen Briggs used a style class named .ahem set to display: hidden which links user to alternative content If a site is properly constructed with (x)html, it will be accessible in IE/NN4 (and perhaps older versions). Give them working, accessible content without frills, rather than bending over backwards to give them something that looks the same but is an awful mess in the engine compartment. of course i am seeking to make this whole thing graceful and silent, ie users don't have to be aware or made aware of thier inefior browser just get redirected. So I am wondering: what the WSG members think of the idea? I am but one member and can't speak for the others, but I think it a waste of time. Why maintain two separate versions (or 3 if you throw in a text only version) when one will do? Just hide the CSS they don't understand and give them a plain-vanilla site. They'll get used to it as more and more sites go down that path. Regards ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] web stanards detection - is it possible?
it was eariler in the discussion
Bob McClelland
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk wrote:
if (!document.getElementById)
{window.location=/v4/?dom=false}
Bret Lester wrote:
Curious--how do you check for DOM?
BL
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of designer
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 11:00 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] web stanards detection - is it possible?
Hi All,
I actually put a non Dom counter on one of my sites a few months ago, to
check how relevant it was in this particular case. The site is a
holiday letting agency, so the users are of all kinds and from all IT
levels. (But mostly English).
You can see the detailed stats showing the 'old browser' users here:
http://extremetracking.com/open;unique?login=nondom
and it's interesting to see how that compares to the 'modern browser
hits. The following data is for the last four months and shows the
number of users (not pages) for Dom and nonDom:
Month
Dom
NonDom
April
494
7
May
516
3
June
494
6
July
191
2
I presume that the figures are reliable enough and I expect these
figures to be representative of sites which are not 'specialist'.
I found it interesting, so I thought some of you may do too, esp in view
of this recent discussion.
Bob McClelland
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
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Re: [WSG] web stanards detection - is it possible?
further more part of my stratergy is too use some kind of php sniffer script like http://phpsniff.sourceforge.net/ - not straying out of the remit of this list check the following stats produced property_name return value ua mozilla/5.0 (windows; u; windows nt 5.0; en-us; rv:1.7.8) gecko/20050511 firefox/1.0.4 browser fx long_name firefox version 1.0.4 maj_ver 1 min_ver .0.4 letter_ver _javascript_ 1.5 platform win os 2k session cookies Unknown stored cookies Unknown ip 80.44.177.228 language en-us,en gecko 20050511 gecko_ver 1.7.8 html true images true frames true tables true java true plugins true css2 true css1 true iframes true xml true dom true hdml false wml false $client-has_quirk(quirk) must_cache_forms true avoid_popup_windows false cache_ssl_downloads false break_disposition_header false empty_file_input_value false scrollbar_in_way false $client-browser_is(browser) gecko1.3+ true aol false ie6+ false mz1.3+ false ns7+ false op6+ false $client-language_is(language) en true en-us true fr-ca false $client-is(search) b:ns7- false l:en-us true all information gathered with out any need of _javascript_ etc this way it will be easy to check against alist of naughty bad browsers Bret Lester wrote: Curious--how do you check for DOM? BL -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of designer Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 11:00 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] web stanards detection - is it possible? Hi All, I actually put a non Dom counter on one of my sites a few months ago, to check how relevant it was in this particular case. The site is a holiday letting agency, so the users are of all kinds and from all IT levels. (But mostly English). You can see the detailed stats showing the 'old browser' users here: http://extremetracking.com/open;unique?login=nondom and it's interesting to see how that compares to the 'modern browser hits. The following data is for the last four months and shows the number of users (not pages) for Dom and nonDom: Month Dom NonDom April 494 7 May 516 3 June 494 6 July 191 2 I presume that the figures are reliable enough and I expect these figures to be representative of sites which are not 'specialist'. I found it interesting, so I thought some of you may do too, esp in view of this recent discussion. Bob McClelland www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Flash and valid XHTML
Hi All, I have been using flashObject for some time now I have heard that satay does not display the object until the movie is loaded also I have found it to be quite hard to work with, and flash object is soo simple I strated a thread a while ago asking if anyone knew of / could find any draw backs of the flashObject method no body had a bad word to say about it (the thread followed another tangent) www.makepovertyhistory.org - is using flashObject below is an snippet of mark up from the site I have added comments !-- a container with alternative content -- div id=flashcontenta href=#Come to Edinburgh - Click here to find out more./a/div script type=text/javascript // ![CDATA[ // make a new flash object - path to swf, id of container, with of movie, height of movie, version of flash, background colour var fo = new FlashObject(/flash/feature-homepage2.swf, feature, 550, 133, 7, #ff); // a number of options can be added to the object here such as params // wmode can also be added - its really neat fo.write(flashcontent); // ]] /script http://blog.deconcept.com/2005/03/31/proper-flash-embedding-flashobject-best-practices/ for all the dreamweaverers out there you can get a widget plugin for FlashObject what do you peeps think of this method? keen to hear response Sam designer wrote: Hi Erwin, I always use a method suggested to me by Bert Doorn which so far has worked fine: object data=opening.swf width=550 height=377 type=application/x-shockwave-flash param name=movie value=opening.swf / param name=quality value=high / param name=bgcolor value=#fff / img src=graphics/openingflashimage.gif alt= / /object you'll note that you can put a graphic there for those who don't want Flash, or indeed you can include a link/prompt to download the player. I like it because it's so simple, AND it validates xhtml strict. Hope this helps . . . Bob McClelland Cornwall (U.K.) Erwin Heiser wrote: Hi all, So far I¹ve been able to avoid using Flash but a site I¹m working on uses a few flash elements (like a slideshow). I¹ve been googling around but besides the alistapart article on Flash-Satay I¹ve not been able to find another method of embedding flash in a page so that it still validates. Does anyone with more flash experience have any suggestions? (I'd like the pages to validate to XHTML Strict or Transitional) Thanks in advance, Erwin Heiser ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Accordion style script behaviour
I would try youngpup.net and may be shaun innman atb Sam Peter Ottery wrote: i really like this accordion show/hide script... http://openrico.org/demos.page?demo=ricoAccordion.html .. and am thinking it might be useful for a really long list of FAQ's on a page. this particular example relies on the quite sizeable 'rico' javascript/s (which contain a whole bunch of other behaviours - and looks amazing) but i really just need this one show/hide behaviour. I know this is a pretty common behaviour - but the speed at which things develop in our community makes me think there is a great example out there somewhere that does *just* this. anyone got an example to share? pete (i know next to nothing about js, hence being on the lookout for examples by the pros :) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] valid flash?
http://blog.deconcept.com/2005/03/31/proper-flash-embedding-flashobject-best-practices/ if your not adverse to using some javascript, no ones be able to prove any draw backs to using this system yet certainly much easier than merthods you re trying!! designer wrote: OK, I'm getting a bit confused and I need help from someone with a clear head! I've been comparing the method of getting valid flash suggested by Simon Jessey with that suggested by Bert Doorn. You can see a simple test page of the two, running side by side, at www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk/flash/ What surprises me is that the non flash content in the Jessey example works when it's not IE you are using (certainly when it's Opera 8, which is the only browser I use with plugins blocked). I'm also confused by the fact that the browsercam report shows that, in IE6, the flash plays even when the player is not installed! see: http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=165429 So, my question: Which is 'best' - Jessey or Doorn? And, if one or both of them work without real problems, isn't that a big step forward that we should all know about? What are your feelings/findings? Thanks for any fog-clearing input on this:-) Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Flash Satay Embed Issue
last week i poted a question on this topic asking list members what they thought of the variousmethods of embedding flash below is a link to flash object so far it has never failed any test posed to it http://blog.deconcept.com/2005/03/31/proper-flash-embedding-flashobject-best-practices/ an example site which i found to be using the flashObject method http://www.makepovertyhistory.org/ one pf the highest profile sites i know i am extremeley interested to hear opinions on it. whilst on the subject of satay i found it far to complex, and the entire has to load so i hear - or am i wrong SS Ian Fenn wrote: Patrick wrote: I'm testing this on browsercam at the moment. A couple of browsers seem to have issues. See: http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=165026 Those are known issues of the Satay method, some of which are even outlined in the original ALA article www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/ I know - I just thought running the given example through browser.com might help someone. All the best, -- Ian Fenn Chopstix Media http://www.chopstixmedia.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Flash Satay Embed Issue
Ian Fenn wrote: I wrote: I tried implementing this method last week and whilst the examples worked fine on my desktop, I couldn't get the code to work from my server. I forgot to add that it crashed with a _javascript_ error - object expected. All the best, -- Ian Fenn Chopstix Media http://www.chopstixmedia.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** what browser were you using? it has a wide coverage of the various browsers evrey time it works when I have tested it.
Re: [WSG] make poverty history website
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So. On 5/19/05, Andy Budd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nancy Johnson wrote: Is it true that the W3C has not done a spec for Flash? If that is so why? Because Flash is a proprietary product! So, the W3C is the web's standards body, and they only define guidelines for making official W3C technologies accessible. And WCAG 1.0 guideline 11 also states Use W3C technologies and guidelines http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/#gl-use-w3c It's also worth noting that, by definition, Flash cannot be 100% accessible (as there will always be the initial hurdle of certain browsing environments or assistive technologies not being able to understand, or hook into, a flash movie). I appreciate what Patrick H. Lauke is saying about flash never being 100% the thing is that flash content is highly desirable by both site owners and user (those that don;t have to work with it) I originally asked for feed back from the list since the Make Poverty History website uses 'flashObject' to replace the innerHTML of a div with the flash mark up. I feel that thhis is a nifty litlle fail safe method of using 'proprietry' technology in pages, features can be built around the use of flashObject to give users the option of no flash content My question is focussed on the following question: Is flashObject the best method for encorperating flash into pages? as aposed to others plain mark up (object / embed), flash Satay, or sIFR I just visited the following http://web.burza.hr/ from www.linkdup.com The thing is that clients and users want all singing all dancing sites. Most of my clients don't care much beyond the surface and they want the surface to be gleaming and polished. I attempt to meet these expectations and still adhere to other aspects of site building which I understand the importance of SS ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] make poverty history website
This tangent has gotten quite interesting and turned out to be very informative indeed here is a basic prototype of a site I am making, still early doors yet http://s107442706.websitehome.co.uk/kos5/flash/ I am using flashObject to place the swf in the page. users with a version of flash less than 6 or with _javascript_ disabled see an informative message linking them to appropriate content for thier configuration system set up. My original focus of the question was what do members of the list think of flashObject as a method of placing flash in pages? Standard flash code does not validate. Standard flash code does not have a fallback safety net in case users don't have it working search engines can't get to content within flash movies pages with flashObject can be made error free (at least in terms of validation errors) FlashObject replaces page mark up using _javascript_ and innerHTML of a specific tag, so users see alternative content this alternative content is with the page mark up - therefore I hope search engines spiders pick up with ease Thanks to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for the comment about sIFR. I quite agree with you, its a text enharncer the way it works is simular to flashObject in that it uses style selectors to replace mark up At any rate my current analysis is that this flashObject approach demostrated in my link above is almost fault free, or at least on the road. I am interested in hearing what others think and if anyone else has an approach more suited please reveal the method. once again thank you to all those who have participated in this discussion so far SS Andy Budd wrote: I can't see what the point is. The W3C has no control over Java or many other technologies that are proprietry or closed, but that does not stop them from becoming or meeting W3C standards or compliance. The original question asked why the W3C hadn't written a spec for Flash. My answer still stands that it's not theirs to write a spec for. However If you can show me the W3C page that details the Java spec I may change my mind :-) Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 Come see me speak at @Media2005 in London, England, 9-10th Jun. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Playing a sound file - what is the best way?
I would use Flash to play the audio and provide an alternative link to the sound file as alternative content thanks SS Stevio wrote: I have a sound file that my client wants me to put on his web site. It is a radio advert that they currently have running. The format of the file is m4a (mp4). I have used a program that converts it to mp3 or other formats if required. What is the best way to go about including it on a web page, and keeping it standards compliant (to at least HTML 4.01 Transitional)? Including sound files is not something I often do, you'll be glad to know. I will also NOT be setting it to start playing itself, it will be up to the user! Should I keep it in the m4a format or use mp3 or use something else? I got it working with the following code: object width=160 height=16 classid=clsid:02BF25D5-8C17-4B23-BC80-D3488ABDDC6B codebase=http://www.apple.com/qtactivex/qtplugin.cab; param name=src value=media/advert.mp4 param name=autoplay value=false param name=controller value=true embed src=media/advert.mp4 width=160 height=16 autoplay=false controller=false pluginspage=http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/; /object However, it doesn't work in Firefox. I need something that will work in different browsers and different platforms. Does anyone know the best way to do this? Thanks, Stephen ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] make poverty history website
Hi List, I visited the www.makepovertyhistory.org website last night and was pleased to see that the site uses Geoff Sterns FlashObject. This seems to reaffirm my opinion that the flashObject method of placing flash in the page is more approprate than the MM object / embed code and flash satay or other technics used elsewhere. I consider this to be a real world issue in developing modern websites, standard or otherwise since flash and rich media is often an important part of the build of the site (clients and user like it when it works well) So I wanted to know what the list thinks of the flashObject technic and other alternatives out there? More info can be found on Flash Object here: http://blog.deconcept.com/2005/03/31/proper-flash-embedding-flashobject-best-practices/ Flash Satay http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/ sIFR http://www.mikeindustries.com/blog/archive/2004/08/sifr atb SS ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] make poverty history website
It all works in firefox for me. But then I have 1.0.4, also works fin in Opera 8 a joyful browser, better thab ff, apart from the absence of extensions Just want to clarify that I did not work on the MPH site, I am using simular approach to them in terms of displaying flash content. I find it really nifty and by far the best approach do any members of the list see any draw backs to the use of flashObject? is there a better method of putting flash in pages? thanks SS Mike Foskett wrote: Hi Sam, Is there a reason why http://www.makepovertyhistory.org/video/?pageVideo=/flv/clickuk512k.flv does not display in Firefox v1.0.3 ? Reading the associated articles it should do, and when it doesn't it should display an alternative text version, though MPH probably forgot. Mike 2k:)2 -Original Message- From: sam sherlock [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 17 May 2005 17:13 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] make poverty history website Hi List, I visited the www.makepovertyhistory.org website last night and was pleased to see that the site uses Geoff Sterns FlashObject. This seems to reaffirm my opinion that the flashObject method of placing flash in the page is more approprate than the MM object / embed code and flash satay or other technics used elsewhere. I consider this to be a real world issue in developing modern websites, standard or otherwise since flash and rich media is often an important part of the build of the site (clients and user like it when it works well) So I wanted to know what the list thinks of the flashObject technic and other alternatives out there? More info can be found on Flash Object here: http://blog.deconcept.com/2005/03/31/proper-flash-embedding-flashobject-best-practices/ Flash Satay http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/ sIFR http://www.mikeindustries.com/blog/archive/2004/08/sifr atb SS ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] mutli language websites
Hello WSG List Members, I am delveloping a website that can switch between english and itallian. I am wondering if I should be using en-GB or en-gb for my lang attributes and also for the meta http-equiv=Content-Language content=en-GB / are these attributes sensitive to casing? or should I just have en also is the charset iso-8859-1 OK for italian content? I would also appreciate any links to web standard sites using multiple languages? thanks in advance, Sam ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] mutli language websites
Robin Berjon wrote: Geoff Deering wrote: Does anyone use transparent content negotiation to handle multiple language sites? I get the feeling this is hardly ever used, if so, why not? The problem IME is that when you use it you have to also provide a way for the user to pick her language which will override the negotiation (I've been accessing the Web a lot from computers localized in Japanese recently, and they're probably not sending Accept-Language headers that reflect the reality of languages I can really "accept" :). It's not complicated to mix both together but the extra feature of negotiating the default language rarely seems worth it. I am using ip2couuntry class in PHP to decide the default lanuage. Thanks to Evandro who sent me a link to his site in Portugese and English. The site in question does not use the language attribute as inteneded (as far as I understand) all Lan attributes are set to en for Portugese, Itallian and English. What is the web standards best practise for multi-lingual sites Should I use en or en-GB is the casing important? What charset should I use for the Itallian version the same as english or other? Are the any link available to webstandard best practise examples? many thanks SS
