Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites
On 20 December 2011 13:09, Alex Mironov alexmiro...@graphicdesignservices.ato.gov.au wrote: [snip] I was wondering if anyone had any views/resources as to whether users should remain in the same window or should be taken to a new window/tab when they click on an external link? Short answer: don't open new windows/tabs (unless you have a really good reason). Reason 1: it's da law! (if you're subject to WCAG 2.0 accessibility requirements, e.g. Australian Govt) ... e.g. http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/G200 (well, ok, not strictly da law, but clearly bad practice for many accessibility use cases and likely to fail accessibility audits.) Reason 2: opening new windows/tabs by default basically says welcome to 1999! If you're fine with that, go right ahead ;) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] search page vallidation
Marvin, I believe someone mentioned it earlier, but removing the br / tags just prior to the /ul tag should resolve the issues that you are having with xhtml validation. Cheers, Matt *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] The 'Some Links for Light Reading' posts
Absoutely, I'll echo that. There are some real gems in there. Thanks, Russ. 2009/9/23 Susie Gardner-Brown susi...@uq.edu.au: Hi there I’d just like to send a big thank you to Russ Weakley for taking the time to collate and send this to WSG Announce each week! I always find really interesting stuff there, and usually bookmark a couple of links from it. So, thanks Russ – it’s really appreciated! Cheers susie *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible websites
2009/7/8 Dennis Lapcewich dlapcew...@fs.fed.us: Dennis Lapcewich wrote: While I agree with your general sentiment, I have to say I find the assertion that all people aged 35-40 or more are for all intents and purposes [...] web disabled and [...] in immediate need of web accessibility questionable, to say the least. I did not write the above. Please do not attribute to me another's comments in this accessibility thread. Please make sure you attribute correctly so as to avoid a misquote, at best, or disingenuous intent, at worst. My original comment concerned itself with a medical condition that in time, literally affects 100 percent of the human population. While onset of presbyopia is often described in the literature in the 40s and later, it is not unheard of to have symptoms beginning at age 35-40. Dennis is quite right - I wrote the quoted While I agree with your general sentiment... sentence. Have to be careful with those indents and attributions. I stand by my comment, by the way: while I strongly agree that accessibility is a core aspect of web design, extrapolating it's not unheard of to have symptoms beginning at age 35-40 to [all people aged 35-40 or more are] for all intents and purposes [...] web disabled and [...] in immediate need of web accessibility is clearly overstating the case. It's unnecessary, as the case for good accessibility is very strong anyway, and only gets weakened by making exaggerated claims. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Installing More than one version of IE6
2009/7/3 Matijs mat...@gmail.com: For what it's worth. Microsoft have—for several years now—offered free Windows XP images with IE6/7/8RC and now IE8 as well in Microsoft Virtual PC format. Microsoft Virtual PC (the application) is also available for free, making this the most acurate and low-cost option available. The only drawback is that these images are time-bombed and only work for about 3-4 months. However, new ones are usually available as soon as the old ones expire. You can find the current images here: http://www.microsoft.com/Downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=21eabb90-958f-4b64-b5f1-73d0a413c8efdisplaylang=en Note that the link to Virtual PC on that page goes to the Windows 7 version; the XP/Vista version (Virtual PC 2007) is here: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=04D26402-3199-48A3-AFA2-2DC0B40A73B6displaylang=en It will not run on any of the Home editions of Windows; you must have Professional, Enterprise or Ultimate. (not an endorsement, by the way... more of a warning.) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [Spam] :RE: [WSG] Accessible websites (was: accessible free web hosting account)
2009/7/2 Dennis Lapcewich dlapcew...@fs.fed.us: If you are unsure that web accessibility should play a role, take this test. In a group of people have everyone stand up. Those who are unable to stand may remain seated. Now pose these three requests, in order: 1) If you are wear glasses, contacts and/or have had corrective eye surgery, please sit down. 2) Of those who remain standing, if you know for a fact you are color-blind, please sit down. 3) Of those who now remain standing, everyone aged 35-40 or more, please sit down. Those who are left standing have little to no immediate need for web accessibility, but they will in time. Of those who sat down, while many (most?) may not meet a legal definition as being disabled, for all intents and purposes they are web disabled and are in immediate need of web accessibility. While I agree with your general sentiment, I have to say I find the assertion that all people aged 35-40 or more are for all intents and purposes [...] web disabled and [...] in immediate need of web accessibility questionable, to say the least. I'd be careful of overstating the case like this, as it can undermine the whole argument. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] returning to scroll position in a table inside a fixed hight div
2009/6/15 raven rav...@mail.ru: Keep in mind as always that a JavaScript solution will not work in user agents not running JavaScript, which can include search engines, mobile devices, assistive technology, browsers in certain corporate contexts in which JavaScript is globally turned off or stripped out of incoming pages by firewalls, old browsers, and modern browsers used by folks who turn it off for whatever reason. Hmmm... what exactly problem can cause using of JavaScript *in this case* from SEO point of view? Or what browser, *witch you really support*, don't support JS? And what part of your target auditory even know how to disable JavaScript execution in their browsers? Don't use common words! Give us facts, numbers, tests. Here's a number for you: when I added JS usage stats gathering about a year ago to a large site I was working on, I was quite surprised to find that 10% (rounded to the nearest percent) of unique users were not running Javascript. This was one of the major net dating sites in Europe, with 1 million membership, so it was a fairly mainstream (as opposed to tech/webdev) user population. Many mobile browsers don't support JS. Many corporate networks enforce JS being turned off. Search bots typically don't support JS. Short answer: you cannot rely on JS being there. The smart approach is always progressive enhancement: build the basic, semantic (x)html version first, exposing all the key functionality via basic semi-RESTful html, such that it works effectively without images, CSS, JS/Ajax or other technologies such as Flash. Then add goodies for those that have them... you know the drill. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)
On 3/25/09 12:12 PM, Rick Faircloth r...@whitestonemedia.com wrote: The correct design (and web standards that are adhered to or not) is that design for which the client is paying. Sorry, but that just reads to me like a way to excuse slipshod work. It is one thing to figure out any old way to collect the check, and quite another to think out all the angles and produce something that reaches the largest possible audience. I think the latter is far more professional, and all of the people I now work with, and all the ones I think of as successful in web design/dev, sweat those details. I've personally refused jobs before based on the knowledge that accessibility was being left out. So I know it can be done. Whether others would do the same is a question of their own judgment, not their professionalism. A standard could be imposed on all concerned that would make driving accessible to the blind...it certainly is technically possible...however, the cost is simply too high to make that a reality. First off, no, it's not possible. The technology doesn't exist today, or we'd all have self-driving cars already. Though what this has to do with pragmatic accessibility for web pages, which is generally a low-cost proposition for most of what's out there, is beyond me. Making content more accessible is not a boil-the-ocean strategy. Most of the basics for web accessibility take little work, and are easy to integrate into the average dev's everyday tasks. The only time it can be really costly is when it's been ignored the whole time the work was being done. Likewise (...in that they are both referenced sequentially in one email...) site owners may be under time and monetary restraints that prohibit making their websites accessible to all. Or they may just choose not to...again, it's the boss's choice, not the designer's. So, let me boil this down: web accessibility is like blind people driving. Wow. I think the only thing they may have in common is your willingness to contemplate them as an implementer. Which is fine, in and of itself. I'm not the boss of you. But if you're trying to equate the task of following a few best practices with reinventing the world's transportation infrastructure, well, good luck with that. - m *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] macpro and softwares..
Try ies4osx. I haven't, but have heard it works: http://www.kronenberg.org/ies4osx/ As for software, I'm partial to Dreamweaver. And Contribute. And Flex Builder. :) But I've also heard good things about Aptana, and I've been happy with TextWrangler, which did all I used BBEdit for, free. - m On 3/5/09 10:32 AM, Naveen Bhaskar naveenbhas...@ymail.com wrote: Hi, I used to work in a windows system and now I am working in a macbook pro. how can I test my webpages for IE. Is there any IE installers available for mac? Also pls let me know what are the softwares available for a UI developer for Mac. thanks a ton in advance.. thanks and regards Naveen Bhaskar cell: +91.9740082166 Bangalore navidesigns http://www.cpluv.com/navidesigns/ Check out the all-new Messenger 9.0! Click here. http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_messenger_7/*http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Javascript Accessibility
As someone who's on the working group producing ARIA, I have to say the editors have done a pretty remarkable job in terms of documenting a specification that hasn't even advanced past Working Draft. First, there's the spec itself: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/ Then there's the User Agent Implementation Guide, for browser developers to follow: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-implementation/ And the Best Practices Guide, for authors: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/ In addition, Steve Faulkner, also in the PFWG, has done lots of writing on the subject: http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?cat=23 And Universal Design for Web Applications, the book I co-wrote with Wendy Chisholm, has a more basic introductory chapter on ARIA. The point is, it may not all have a W3C banner at the top, but generally speaking, W3C is more responsible for being complete and precise, than being prosaic. I expect that the Web Standards Curriculum is most likely to have author-friendly material on ARIA, and that's only when the spec is stable enough for general consumption. - m On 3/1/09 6:32 AM, David Dixon da...@terrainferno.net wrote: although the WAI ARIA team (as with the W3C in general) need to start producing more palatable documentation rather than just having huge technical manuals on the subject. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Javascript Accessibility
On 3/2/09 2:02 AM, Mathew Robertson mat...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Its been possible to do ARIA style accessibility since about 1995 - its just now that people are starting to care. Not sure what value you were hoping to add to the conversation, but MSAA, the Windows accessibility API, didn't come out until April 1997. And that much of what ARIA has to offer is actually enabled by the IAccessible2 or User Interface Automation APIs, which are much more recent and comprehensive. ARIA is a very ambitious spec, and a number of companies contributing to its support in a very short period of time, relative to the work that's necessary. But, thanks for the cynicism! We don't get enough of that on the Internet these days. :) - m *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] The notion of accessibility [was: Javascript Accessibility]
On 3/2/09 3:15 PM, Hassan Schroeder has...@webtuitive.com wrote: Matt Morgan-May wrote: Look at the Atlas project that was unveiled this week, as an example. ref? http://www.280atlas.com/ One of the developers is actually talking about ARIA right now: http://rossboucher.com/2009/03/01/limitations-of-the-wai-aria/ - m *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Implication of empty divs
Andy's technically correct, and it's true that pointing to the main content of the document is good for accessibility, though not because of semantics so much as that you can point to it in a Skip to main content link. id='mainContent' doesn't communicate any semantics by itself. (That's something they're working on in HTML5: establishing roles for main content, etc.) The real problem with div is the affliction known as div-itis, where block elements which could express semantics and/or which already have default layout properties (like blockquote) are ignored in favor of div. (Div-itis is also strongly correlated with span-itis, which is really more like a plague.) - m On 2/10/09 3:22 PM, Ben Lau bensan...@gmail.com wrote: From the CSS Mastery Advanced Web Standards Solutions book by Andy Budd, and I quote: Many people mistakenly believe that a div element has no semantic meaning. However div actually stands for division and provides a way of dividing a document into meaningful areas. So by wrapping your main content area in a div and giving it an ID of mainContent, you are adding structure and meaning to your document. But as far as i know, screen readers do not pick up IDs or classes? So even by declaring a div ID=mainNav, it's still not enough to describe what's inside the div? I'm starting to get awfully confused... *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] PDFs and other non-html files opening in a new browser window
On 2/5/09 1:30 PM, Carolyn Diaz carolyn.d...@gmail.com wrote: I know this is an old school type question, but we are very divided about this. The people on our usability team are with Nielsen, but others (like me) are not so sure. Isn't accessibility to new windows a problem as it changes the focus? What do you think? I think you're better off loading the PDF in the same window. If a user prefers to load PDFs in another window, it's likely that they want to load it into Adobe Reader rather than an IE wrapper of the Reader plugin. Users with that preference can use Reader's accessibility wizard to configure all PDFs to be opened in Reader. As far as accessibility is concerned, the big issue with opening new windows is actually with windows being opened involuntarily, e.g. popups. (Even then, it's only a Level AAA requirement in WCAG 2.) Using target on links is not a problem--anymore. And, what Lachlan said about marking PDF documents as PDFs. :) - m *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Users who deliberately disable JavaScript
2009/1/27 Patrick H. Lauke re...@splintered.co.uk: As good as it is to hear anecdotal evidence from expert users such as list members here, I'd say it's much more important to bring some actual live user stats to the table. Last time I checked JS stats (around 12 months ago) at the site I work on (with membership of over 1 million and thousands of users per day - just saying that to illustrate that the sample is large), 10% of unique visitors did not have Javascript running. I believe that would not include many robots, as the point of detection for the stats was after a search form submit. I was shocked when I saw that, to be honest: I was expecting something closer to 2 or 3 percent. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
On 1/14/09 5:38 AM, Christie Mason cma...@managersforum.com wrote: Plus, I'd be curious as to availability of the Flex server in remote hosts. I haven't seen any offer it, is it still so pricey(?), but I also haven't been looking for it. Flex hasn't been sold on a server basis since 1.5, which was released in 2004. Flex 3 was released as an open-source SDK, along with a commercial, Eclipse-based IDE called Flex Builder (which, btw, is free for educational users--as is ColdFusion). - m *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Re: WSG Digest
On 1/10/09 8:26 AM, Alan C Whiteman acwhite...@visualis.us wrote: In the end, Flash is not only an obnoxious medium in 90% of its usage ...which is not a problem owing to the platform but rather its authors... (Besides, that's consistent with Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything is crap.) it's technically bad for SEO. ...which isn't generally germane to learning management systems, given that their users tend to be inside an intranet to begin with. In any case, Google (among other engines) does in fact index Flash content, and has a list of guidelines for doing so: http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2008/06/improved-flash-indexing.h tml But if we don't have people pushing that envelope, doesn't that make that statement self-fulfilling prophecy? As a proprietary technology, Adobe can have the burden of making its technology better and more compliant. You mean like settling on industry-standard audio and video formats, like MP3 and H.264? We do that. SCORM support for our e-Learning products? That too. Hey, maybe we could open-source the Flex language, including its compiler: http://opensource.adobe.com/flex Whether that adds up to better or not isn't up to me to say. But it's not the same platform it was 5 years ago, to be sure. Unfortunately, it's usually argued over as though it were. Thanks, m *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
On 1/12/09 2:20 AM, michael.brocking...@bt.com michael.brocking...@bt.com wrote: Quote: The fact is that many educators have found that they can use Flash to teach their students effectively. I think you (and those teachers that you refer to) are mistaking an effective lesson, for effective teaching.* [...] * It may be easier to teach people to use Flash to get a particular result, but at the end of the day they have not learned what they need to know, which is that Flash is Evil. If evil is all you have to say about Flash, then there's not much that can be said. It's clearly not worth taking a reasoned approach to convince you that it has merit as a classroom tool, despite the thousands of teachers and millions of students using it. Also, I think you mis-understand where the problem lies. Because of the way that Flash works, almost all of it is inaccessible to assistive technology. I have to challenge that assertion, as the engineer who's principally responsible for improving the accessibility of Flash. Having followed Flash accessibility since it was first introduced (in 2002), I can tell you that it has improved dramatically since that time, to the extent that I'd argue accessible RIA development in Flash today is more efficient (and definitely better-supported) than the same work done in Ajax. ARIA will help Ajax get to where we are today, but then Ajax authors will be in the same situation: most of them failing, usually unconsciously, to produce accessible applications by default. When that's the case, will you blame Ajax, or its frameworks, or the individual authors? Will Ajax be evil? Adobe could do a better job, the makers of assistive technology could do a better job Great. I'm all ears. What should we do? So far, the impression that I get is that we should give up. Flash being evil and all. But since we continue to improve our accessibility, please feel free to send me your ideas. but there is very little that the man in the middle can do This is the heart of the matter. It's just not true. Flash authors can do a lot to be directly accessible to assistive technology. And bringing it all back to the original message here, that's what BCAT's developers are trying to do. What's wrong with more people producing more accessible Flash content, other than you disliking Flash? - M *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
# Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
Hi, Excuse me for jumping in here, especially (in this case) as a Flash partisan. But I fail to see how this kind of project can be anything other than a good thing overall. What I don't understand is why people are instantly critical of projects that are actually attempting to increase access to new technology. I've heard a constant drumbeat of don't use Flash: it's inaccessible in the years I've been involved in the field. But if we don't have people pushing that envelope, doesn't that make that statement self-fulfilling prophecy? There are lots of us out there working on improving the accessibility of both existing and future content authored in Flash. There are many arguments to be made for HTML -- I made loads of them while working for W3C, all of which I would stand by today -- but it is not all things to all people. The fact is that many educators have found that they can use Flash to teach their students effectively. I'm not an educator by profession, but my wife is, and she prefers Flash over HTML/CSS/JS to develop her courseware. If you were to tell her she's wrong, especially before seeing what kind of work she does, I think you'd probably find yourself dodging a couple shelves' worth of education texts. Telling a professional their tools are wrong is not the most endearing of approaches. In my opinion, the best one can do is to learn what they're doing, and offer ways to make that output more efficient, more inclusive, and easier to produce. Teachers aren't usually web developers, and we shouldn't want them to be. So I'm all for companies taking on the technical problems so teachers can be teachers, and so on. Thanks, M Accessibility Engineer, Adobe Christie Mason said: Exactly right. I've sadly watched Flash take over eLearning and still haven't figured out the attraction, except that it offers the control of PPT while appearing to be rich.There's only a very few types of web sites that still use Flash for delivering primary content - media sites, those that focus more on look at me instead of being a resource to their site guests, and eLearning. Since, supposedly, eLearning is about offering web based resources for learning it just doesn't make sense to me that it has ignored all the ways the web has supported, continues to support, learning w/o using Flash. Flash on the web is like cooking with garlic. A little adds depth, a lot is inedible. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Reset form fields to default values when user clicks the refresh/reload button in there Browser, not on the page.
Brett Patterson wrote: To Andrew: What I am trying to do is get a form field to reset a value back to the default selected when a user clicks on the refresh or reload button in the browser, not the page (meaning I am not using input type=reset / to reset the fields). So, for example, lets say this code is: form action=processorformquantity.pl name=heartSearch select name=hsQty id=hsQty onchange=proc() option value=00/option option value=11/option option value=22/option option value=33/option /select br /input type=submit value=Submit / /form As you see the code above displayed in the browser, 0 will automatically be shown in the dropdown box (let's call it the default#). But, if the user changes the default# to let's say 2, and then decides to reset the page for whatever reason using the browser's default refresh or reload button, the user-selected 2, will change back to default# (or 0). For a select element you can add the attribute selected=selected the the option you want set by default. As for text inputs, you can just use value=Some Default Text in the input and that will show when the page loads, or is reloaded. HTH -Matt *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible and cross browser online slide system
On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 2:19 PM, Raena Jackson Armitage [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Paul Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lisa, On behalf of other list members, any chance of turning return receipts off? The read receipt was requested by the original poster. The software this list uses actually seems pretty bad at filtering out stuff like this. Good list management software strips out read-receipt headers [1] as well as blocking the automated out-of-office messages that seem to plague this list. Regards, Matt [1] For example, this is the mailman bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/265220 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [ADMIN] THREAD CLOSED [WSG] XSLT: looping through ancestors looking for a specific node
I think the crowd has spoken on this one, clearly this thread should remain OPEN. Humblest apologies to Grant for any embarassment but I think that is all mine :) Perhaps using XSLT as a programming language instead of what it should be used for (see Apache Cocoon) has blurred my ability to see Standards even when it hits me in the face. I'll now go back to my corner... Cheers, -- Matt Fellows http://www.onegeek.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[ADMIN] THREAD CLOSED [WSG] XSLT: looping through ancestors looking for a specific node
Sorry, Grant, this is off topic for this list. Everyone, if you have a response for Grant please send it off list. Cheers, Matt -- Matt Fellows WSG Core Member http://www.onegeek.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] To stretch an image within a div ??
I completely understand everyone's comments on image enlargement using professional graphic applications vs. browsers using their cheesy routines. What I didn't know was if I had missed any use of proper techniques within CSS to achieve what I needed. My first post exposes the approaches I am familiar with, but with ample hesitations. I did consider slicing a section of the image in say, Photoshop, and using it to repeat the background within a different element. I felt then, it was an unclean approach, at least with the way I presented it. If so, I would still like your (or anyone's) opinion on the right way to do it. If you don't mind, please peek at my initial post while offering your valuable opinions. Regarding the use of CSS 3: So, if the image is smaller in width (like in my case), should I guess there's no way to stretch it without CSS 3 support ? Nope, not that I know of -- at least not as a background image. You can clip them, you can repeat them, you can offset them... but you can't stretch them. From what I've read so far, I believe you can. Please refer to the following link: http://webdesign.about.com/od/examples/l/blbgsizeexample.htm Regards, Mathew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] To stretch an image within a div ??
Unfortunately, the link is intranet. I could perhaps attempt to post the
skeletal code of the test version, if it's really required.
From your earlier email I'm starting to gather that if an image is wider
than the width of the div (or even browser window), auto-fitting isn't going
to be a problem. So, if the image is smaller in width (like in my case),
should I guess there's no way to stretch it without CSS 3 support ?
Thanks,
Mathew
On 7/6/08, Kepler Gelotte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I can't help you without a link. Please reply to the list and not this
email.
Best regards,
*Kepler Gelotte*
Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
www.neighborwebmaster.com
phone/fax: (732) 302-0904
--
*From:* Matt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
*Sent:* Sunday, July 06, 2008 12:37 AM
*To:* Kepler Gelotte
*Cc:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
*Subject:* Re: [WSG] To stretch an image within a div ??
Kepler,
Thanks for the quick reply.
I'm using a 3 column elastic design with a min-width of 54 em. The
content div stretches like a hybrid does, but the left and right sidebars
don't. The header and footer will stretch without a problem as well. The
content is embedded between the sidebars and the header doesn't quite reach
the window edges because of a dliberate 10px margin. Adding the CSS for
clarity:
div.leftSidebar {
width: 10em;
float: left;
}
div.rightSidebar {
width: 10em;
float: right;
}
div.content {
min-width: 30em;
margin-left: 10em;
margin-right: 10em;
}
div.footer {
clear: both;
}
I had tried chaning the width and overflow. No visible effects were
observed.
Have I logically omitted or overlooked something here ?
Thanks again,
Mathew
On 7/5/08, *Kepler Gelotte* [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Matt,
If you stretch the img (you can't stretch a background-image as far as I
know), you will definitely not be happy with the results.
I am assuming you have a flexible design where the content expands to fit
the width of the browser's window? If that is the case, create a very wide
image and then use:
div.header {
background-image: url(images/large_logo.gif);
background-repeat: no-repeat;
height: 200px;
width: 100%;
overflow: hidden;
}
You can see an example of this technique I used on a web site I created a
while back: http://www.freightturntables.com
Best regards,
*Kepler Gelotte*
Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
www.neighborwebmaster.com
phone/fax: (732) 302-0904
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[WSG] To stretch an image within a div ??
My web page is divided into 5 parts: Header, Left Sidebar, Content, Right
Sidebar Footer. Within the header, I wish to place a large logo, a mini
logo and a site name or company name in large text. Currently, the CSS I'm
using for the header is:
:
:
div {
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
border: 1px dashed #00; //This is for visual testing purposes only
}
div.page {
min-width: 54em;
padding: 10px;
}
div.header {
background-image: url(images/large_logo.gif);
background-repeat: no-repeat; // This image is not repeat worthy !
height:200px;
}
:
:
And the HTML is:
:
:
div class=page
div class=header
h1Title/h1
/div
:
:
/div
However the image does not stretch to fill the right portion of the 'header'
div. Tiling this image spoils things. I've thought about slicing the
rightmost portion of the large_logo. I could then, perhaps, introduce a
parent div to 'header', say 'headerBackground' with the following CSS:
div.headerBackground {
background-image: url(images/large_logo_filler.gif);
background-repeat: repeat-x;
height:200px;
}
This sounds like a nasty way to solve this, with minimal guarantee of making
the repeated slice look good. I'm not familiar with the technique used to
stretch an image within a DIV, and am not confident that it won't visually
skew the logo. A very simple table based technique seems to *visually*
solve this problem quite well without having to fool around with the logo.
But I wouldn't be here asking for help if I was in favor of tables.
What is the standards compliant way to handle this ?
Thanks,
Matt
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Re: [WSG] To stretch an image within a div ??
Kepler,
Thanks for the quick reply.
I'm using a 3 column elastic design with a min-width of 54 em. The
content div stretches like a hybrid does, but the left and right sidebars
don't. The header and footer will stretch without a problem as well. The
content is embedded between the sidebars and the header doesn't quite reach
the window edges because of a dliberate 10px margin. Adding the CSS for
clarity:
div.leftSidebar {
width: 10em;
float: left;
}
div.rightSidebar {
width: 10em;
float: right;
}
div.content {
min-width: 30em;
margin-left: 10em;
margin-right: 10em;
}
div.footer {
clear: both;
}
I had tried chaning the width and overflow. No visible effects were
observed.
Have I logically omitted or overlooked something here ?
Thanks again,
Mathew
On 7/5/08, Kepler Gelotte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Matt,
If you stretch the img (you can't stretch a background-image as far as I
know), you will definitely not be happy with the results.
I am assuming you have a flexible design where the content expands to fit
the width of the browser's window? If that is the case, create a very wide
image and then use:
div.header {
background-image: url(images/large_logo.gif);
background-repeat: no-repeat;
height: 200px;
width: 100%;
overflow: hidden;
}
You can see an example of this technique I used on a web site I created a
while back: http://www.freightturntables.com
Best regards,
*Kepler Gelotte*
Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
www.neighborwebmaster.com
phone/fax: (732) 302-0904
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Re: [WSG] Structuring CSS
Now that's a question to spark debate! Without leaning one way or another there are a number of different approaches you might try. Have you considered CSS frameworks such as Blueprint CSS[1] or the 960 grid system[2]? These approaches help to standardize your CSS by providing the basic page layout with cross-browser compatible, minimal and semantic markup. You are then left to style (bring life to) the page with the content and look and feel. There is also the old-school developer approach where you get a little more freedom. You start by resetting your css [3], then set all of your basic styles and general classes (which probably differ little across sites) and set your site/section/page/page sub-section specific styles. Traditional developers like this approach because they use their own naming conventions, and often can re-use the base css files. I'm guessing this sort of structuring comes at a cost because a number of requests need to be made to the server. You're certainly right with the cost in terms speed, by increasing the number of CSS files, but what about the cost of development time, readability and re-usability? -- Matt Fellows http://www.onegeek.com.au/ References: [1] - http://code.google.com/p/blueprintcss/ [2] - http://960.gs/ [3] - http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/05/01/reset-reloaded/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Should we design for 800x600 screens?
It probably has been asked before - but the answer is likely to change with time (as monitor sizes vary or normalize) so the question is still as relevant as ever. If you were to ask the question to Jakob Nielson, he would say optimize for 1024x768 [1] and provide a liquid content area. But you really need to look at it from a few angles: - Your intended audience i.e. Intranet users most likely won't be viewing your site on their mobiles or Playstations. But users of a social networking site might. - Screen resolution data. i.e. If you expect 95% of your audience to be using 800x600 then there is a compelling reason to optimize for that adapt to user's needs I agree - adapt to user's needs. However, a liquid layout in my opinion does not always offer that. Liquid layouts are generally a good idea, but are not always perfect. For example, how do you create a liquid layout to cater for a mobile and a widescreen plasma? You might try something like Switchy McLayout found at A List Apart [2], but these different mediums really require tailored content. Adapting to the user's needs in this case means providing different content and maybe even a different interface. To clarify my position though - I would agree with Jakob Nielson in the general sense, keeping my audience in mind. But knowing your user's will give you more insight into what you _should_ do. -- Matt Fellows http://www.onegeek.com.au/ [1] - http://www.useit.com/alertbox/screen_resolution.html [2] - http://www.alistapart.com/articles/switchymclayout *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Link Help please
It should be href=xxx.css not href(xxx.css) -- Matt Fellows http://www.onegeek.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
Out of curiosity, is a logo img at the top of the page more semantically correct when wrapped in a p than when it's just on it's own (ie. not wrapped in anything other than, say, a 'header' div)? Easy! A p tag is supposed to hold a paragraph of text. If it is only holding an image, then there is no need for the surrounding p tag. Some people (including myself) feel uncomfortable with the img floating by itself, so wrapping it in a div id=header or something is a nice alternative. -- Matt Fellows http://www.onegeek.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Conditional styles not being used on first-run
Sounds like IE6 is caching the original stylesheet. This is entirely expected as it increases performance and responsiveness for the user on subsequent page loads. There is no nice way around it. I'm sure you could use JavaScript of some sort to reload the script but i don't think it is worth it. On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 7:53 PM, Steven Workman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi everyone, I'm having a problem with an element I've created for my current project. It's basically a styled rounded-corner box with a title (it looks like a fieldset but is correctly structured HTML). To get all my padding working correctly I'm using conditional styles for IE6, but some users are reporting that they have to refresh their screens (press F5) in IE before the positioning works correctly! Have any of you heard of this before? Is there a way around it? Any recommendations? Many thanks, Steve Workman PA Consulting Group 123 Buckingham Palace Road London SW1W 9SR United Kingdom Direct dial: +44 207 881 3732 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.paconsulting.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Matt Fellows http://www.onegeek.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Centering all items in a li
Shouldn't have to set a height, the line will wrap automatically (unless you specify not to). Thanks, but as I said, that doesn't work in this case because the li is floating. Do the li's have to float? On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 8:49 PM, Darren Lovelock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks, but as I said, that doesn't work in this case because the li is floating. Also I think it is dependant on the the li having a set height value which I cant do either. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone Sent: 18 May 2008 10:01 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Centering all items in a li I seem to remember someone in a previous thread, about similar problem, suggested using, display: table-cell; vertical-align: middle; On Sat, May 17, 2008 3:39 pm, Darren Lovelock wrote: Hi list, I've been trying to find a solution that will allow me to vertically center all the items in a li. The big problems i've got are that the li's are a non-fixed height and are floating to the left. So that kills the negative http://www.jakpsatweb.cz/css/css-vertical-center-solution.html positioning method and the table-cell http://www.w3.org/Style/Examples/007/center#vertical methods that I've found whilst scouring the web. Does anyone know a method that I can use that doesn't involve using tables? Any help will be greatly appreciated! Regards, Darren Lovelock Munky Online Web Design http://www.munkyonline.co.uk http://www.munkyonline.co.uk/ T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Matt Fellows http://www.onegeek.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Centering all items in a li
lol I think I will leave this one alone, I think i'm making you're job more difficult instead of the other way around! Please do send through your solution when you find it so I can have that 'light bulb' moment. Cheers, -- Matt Fellows http://www.onegeek.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Centering all items in a li
A demo would be helpful, but have you tried something along the lines
of the following:
div id=footer
ul
lia href=/link1Link1/a/li
lia href=/link2Link2/a/li
...
/ul
/div
div#footer{text-align:center;}
div#footer ul li{display:inline;list-style-type:none; }
Cheers,
--
Matt Fellows
http://www.onegeek.com.au/
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Re: [WSG] Centering all items in a li
Sorry Darren - it was late an i was tired! Vertical/Horizontal, Left/Right...
I don't think there is a need to do anything too exciting, the
container of the list should just need a text-align:center.
Is this basically what you are after? I have made the div only 300px
wide so you get the wrapping effect which I think is what is causing
the grief.
div.container{text-align:center; width:300px}
div.container ol li{list-style-type:none; }
div class=container
ol
li class=elem
label for=dnameDisplay Name:/label
input type=text id=dname class=tinput /
/li
li class=desc
pInformation about preview box etc. If it is more than two
lines or ## characters link to./p
spana href=learn more/a/span
/li
/ol
/div
The list items will be centered. If you have multiple columns you can
just place them next to each other.
Or am i still missing something?
--
Matt Fellows
http://www.onegeek.com.au/
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Re: [WSG] Older Browsers
As much as I agree to what your are saying regarding IE5, it is still ignoring the fact that people are using it, albeit a small proportion. If your client absolutely _needs_ it, then you will have to code for it. I think this has already been mentioned but perhaps if you could get a hold of some server logs/analytics, you might be able to see that only .07% (~500 of about 700,000 on our site) actually use MSIE 5.0. Then you can make the argument that it is not worth it. Cheers, Matt -- Matt Fellows http://www.onegeek.com.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] accessible client side form validation
I humbly suggest my own: http://www.onegeek.com.au/articles/programming/javascript-form-validation.php:) Completely unobtrusive and requires only valid XHTML. If you have a little bit of JS knowledge you can easily extend the functionality. Cheers, Matt On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 1:38 PM, Casey Farrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Does anyone know of a free form validation javascript that is reasonably accessible? I realise that no client-side validation will be completely accessible without a server-side backup, but are there any good ones out there? Thanks, Casey. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Matt Fellows http://www.onegeek.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Floating model: FF counterintuitive
In your example they should all align with each other (given no width constraints) and that's exactly what happens in FF for me. If you want div 1 to be below the others you will need to do something like this: h2 style=float:left;width:300pxheading/h2 div style=float:left;width:200pxdiv two/div div style=float:left;width:300px; clear:bothdiv one/div On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 12:30 PM, Jens-Uwe Korff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi group, I have a really easy setting: h2 style=float:left;width:300pxheading/h2 div style=float:left;width:300pxdiv one/div div style=float:right;width:200pxdiv two/div When I imagine this I expect the browser to render the two left-floated elements on the left side and the single right-floated div on the right side, aligned with the heading: +---+ ++ |heading| |div2| +---+ || +---+ ++ | div1 | | | +---+ However, FF aligns the right-floated div with the left-floated div and I cannot convice it to align the former with the heading. IE6 and IE7 render it as I intuitively think it should render. Having faith in FF I believe I'm missing something basic to understand why this happens this way. Anybody solved this without introducing a wrapper div for heading and div1? Thanks, Jens The information contained in this e-mail message and any accompanying files is or may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, reliance, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail or any attached files is unauthorised. This e-mail is subject to copyright. No part of it should be reproduced, adapted or communicated without the written consent of the copyright owner. If you have received this e-mail in error please advise the sender immediately by return e-mail or telephone and delete all copies. Fairfax does not guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained in this e-mail or attached files. Internet communications are not secure, therefore Fairfax does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message or attached files. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Matt Fellows http://www.onegeek.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] WCAG 2 implementation site
Nice work Mike, I quite like the way you've used hr/ to separate the content for non-css and used display:none in the other case, it chunks the content quite well. I also like the way you have not gone with the basic skip to content link and gone with a quick skip to menu, I have been advocating a similar approach that integrates access key's into these menu's as well. Is there a reason for not using 'accesskey' at all? Cheers, Matt On 3/12/08, dwain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: nice job! has the feel of web 2.0. dwain Web 2.0? Am I looking at the wrong site (http://lflegal.com/)? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] WCAG 2 implementation site
Interesting. Thanks Thierry! On 3/12/08, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Fellows Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:33 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] WCAG 2 implementation site I recall reading somewhere that 'accesskey' is often considered more hindrance than benefit because there are no standardised keys for specific functions and it inevitably ends up conflicting with regular browser shortcuts that keyboard users or screenreader users are likely to wish to utilise. I would have to generally agree with that. What makes matters worse is the fact that there is no really good/standard behaviour that browser vendors actually follow in implementing them. I was referring to point 9.5 in http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/#gl-device-independence when I made the comment, and was interested Mike's perspective for not using them in this circumstance. I guess since there are only three links, accesskeys become trivial as they probably won't save any time anyway. I still think there is a case for accesskey's in many circumstances however unpopular they are, lets not forget about mobile access etc. User defined Access Keys may be a solution: http://tjkdesign.com/articles/user_defined_accesskeys.asp -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] strong element being more semantical and accessible for required field
Interesting indeed!
Actually Tee I was going to pose the same question to the list
following our discussions the other day :) I would like to get it
right in GValidator so the core doesn't need to be modified by clients
such as yourself.
I would like to see the results of reliable and publicly available
research. Does anyone know of any? A quick Google search doesn't turn
up anything overly exciting or empirical.
Maybe we can do some testing of our own?
So there are actually three interrelated things here: The first is the
semantics of the span class=required*/span element, then there
is the usability and accessibility of it's use.
In terms of usability and accessibility, my initial thoughts would be
that given a sufficiently prominant key just before and in close
proximity to the form, that sighted users should have no problem
identifying which form elements need to be filled in. Users with
screen readers however might have a little more trouble with this
approach, so an approach similar to Russ's suggestion seems like the
best approach.
In terms of semantics, w3c says this about the strong element:
The strong element indicates higher importance for its contents than
that of the surrounding content.
I am unsure as to if it is more important that the label? But I can
see a clear benefit for blind users. So what do we do?
Cheers,
Matt
P.S. Although a while away, we do have these sorts of things to look forward to:
* http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-html5-diff-20080122/#new-attributes
* http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/ARIA2.html
On 2/26/08, russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I can't speak for screen readers since I've never used one my self...
But would there be any reason you couldn't do both and please the
client and the screen reader(assuming it does help them)? a simple
strong* First Name/strong
Just something I thought of :)
Interesting discussion. You could also use more meaningful flags like the
word Required instead of * and style this content in red/bold. This
means that everyone, including screen reader users understand the
implications much more clearly (as long as this information is included
inside the label element.
For example:
label for=details-email
Email span class=required(Required)/span:
/label
Or...
label for=details-email
Email strong(Required)/strong:
/label
Then you could easily style it with something like:
label strong (or label span.required)
{
color: red;
font-weight: bold
text-transform: uppercase;
font-size: 85%;
}
You can even position this required content after the input element
using absolute positioning as Derek Featherstone has proposed.
HTH
Russ
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Re: [WSG] strong element being more semantical and accessible for required field
What about using a fieldset with *legend* if the required fields can be grouped together. Because the legend (required fields) would be read aloud before each label. I thought about this, but I think it makes more sense to have related elements grouped together and in most cases not all of these will be required. For example, many forms ask for personal details such as addresses, phone numbers, work details etc. Not all will be mandatory, but it definately makes sense to group these together. I think it might be a little confusing to enter in details out of order, especially if the form is broken over several pages (have I already entered this information?). Cheers, Matt *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] strong element being more semantical and accessible for required field
In some cases that's an excellent solution (what I've been using for a while) but unfortunately power users will dial down verbosity so much that they will quiet legends as well. A blind power user I know told me * is best. He also told me nothing else is needed, but he's a person and that part my be his opinion. For all-around safety, one of these might be best: Thanks Mike that's really interesting. I would argue, based on the anecdotal evidence you've given, that the following legend is superflous and prevents logical grouping. fieldset legendRequired/legend label for=nameName (required) input name=name label for=emailEmail (required) input name=email /fieldset I am definitely leaning toward the following: fieldset legendPersonal Details/legend label for=nameName span class=required(required)/span/label input name=name label for=emailEmail span class=required(required)/span/label input name=email label for=phonePhone/label input name=phone ... /fieldset Giving in to other's suggestions perhaps the span class=required could become strong class=required :) The benefits here are: * Easily scannable for the regular user * Will be read out for screen readers * Semantically intact * Inputs can be grouped logically * No need for annoying legends Does this seem to be a combination of the general consensus? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] strong element being more semantical and accessible for required field
Thanks Mike. I guess I would prefer verbose and have them fill the form out once than have them have them misinterpret and have to fix errors, which I imagine can be tedious using a screen reader. Is this the case? It would be great if you could keep us posted about any feedback you get in March when the site goes live. For the average user however, what I think I will do is run a few simple A\B tests on some of my sites and log the amount of JavaScript errors for each of the different methods described (there seems to be at least three plausible options). It will take some time to get statistical significance however so it might be a while before I have something useful. Cheers, Matt On 2/26/08, Mike at Green-Beast.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Matt, that the following legend is superflous and prevents logical grouping. fieldset legendRequired/legend label for=nameName (required) input name=name label for=emailEmail (required) input name=email /fieldset I agree, actually. With that example (and the image one I gave) using the word required, in the case of a user listening with a setting that reads the legends (default), would make it too verbose. It'd read: Required Name Required Required Email Required Though I guess there'd be no missing it. ;-) The use of the Required legend seems to work well with the asterisk, with its meaning defined in a non-associated label (one with no for attribute). It's a compromise method. I do have one form on a real-deal AAA WCAG 2.0 site I made (to be officially announced Mar. 11-12th) with this specific configuration. It's open now by invite to a few disabled users/testers and a couple of key WCAG 2.0 Editors, and I got more very positive comments about that particular set-up tonight... a few minutes ago actually. fieldset legendPersonal Details/legend label for=nameName span class=required(required)/span/label input name=name That is a solid method for sure, but there's only one problem and that is to *some* users (default settings) it might sound too verbose. Personal Details Name Required Personal Details Email Required Personal Details Phone The problem is not the technique, yours or mine, or any of the other accessible methods. It's the myriad configurations possible that really challenge us. There are so many variables (not even including those of sighted users) that while there are a number of feasible methods, there seems no perfect one-size fits-all answer. It's all a compromise. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PNG in IE6
If you have Adobe CS, you can try exporting the PNG image as PNG-8.
Cheers,
Matt
http://www.onegeek. http://www.onegeek.com.aucom.auhttp://www.onegeek.com.au
On 2/21/08, Amrinder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi
I looked for the working of .png image in internet explorer and found two
articles.
http://webfx.eae.net/dhtml/pngbehavior/pngbehavior.html
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/pngopacity
I tried using 'filter' according to both these articles but can't got a
way.
Following is the HTML code:
div id=mlogo
div id=extradiv1/div !-- Empty div to display logo--
img src=images/logo_header.gif height=54 width=379 alt=A way
back - logo/
div id=extradiv2/div
/div
The css code for #extradiv1 is:
#extradiv1 {
background-image: url(../images/logo.gif);
background-attachment: scroll;
background-repeat: no-repeat;
background-position: center top;
position:relative;
height: 129px;
width: 120px;
filter:
progid:DXImageTransform.Microsoft.AlphaImageLoader
(src='../image/logo.png',
sizingMethod='scale');
margin: 0 auto;
}
Please help.
Kind Regards,
Amrinder www.awayback.com
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Re: [WSG] Best Practice to Offer Different Formats of Documents
As Joe said, I also think icons are a great way for users to quickly scan the page and get a sense of what is going on. There is a nice article [1] that can show you how to automatically style links with little icons depending on the extension of the file it points to if you are interested. Cheers, Matt [1] - http://www.askthecssguy.com/2006/12/showing_hyperlink_cues_with_cs_1.html On 2/16/08, dwain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/16/08, Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Icons also help people make quick choices and allow you to provide the documents in a tabular format when required. Title of This Lengthy Document [PDF ICON] title=download the PDF: Title_of_This_Lengthy_Document [MSWORD ICON] title=download the Word Document: Title_of_This_Lengthy_Document i also put the size of the document next to the link. this way the visitor know what's coming in the download or the view, because to view a pdf it has to be downloaded first and then opened and by notifying the visitor of the size of the document gives them another choice whether to download, view or by pass the document. dwain -- dwain alford The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] hello - [OT]
With no offense intended to the list moderators, I feel the usefulness of this mailing list is diminishing due to an increase in irrelevant and lazy postings. The majority of people on this list are genuine web developers, who care for the future of the Web and the place Web Standards has in it. But there seems to be a small number of people who think they can simply post their problems to this list without consulting any other reference. Basic CSS problems, PHP syntax and even spam help are just a sample of some of these questions that can, and should be either found quickly by a number of popular resources or even a quick search in Google. Instead, they lazily exploit the goodwill of many in this list who are kind enough to visit their site and fix their problems. With the number of these increasing there is no wonder why people are leaving this list (and publicly doing so). Out on a limb here - does anybody else feel the same? If so, do you have a suggestion as to how we can better the quality of the list? Matt On 2/15/08, John Hancock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please can this be closed? It's far off any standards related topic. Possibly the only thing I can see as a relevant part of the 'Web 2.0movement' is the abstraction of the presentational information from data on a page, which isn't being discussed here. If posting an off-topic message, please at least mark it as such so the rest of us can hit the delete button without checking it first for relevant information! Kind regards, John Hancock *Identity* *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Joe Ortenzi *Sent:* Friday, 15 February 2008 6:32 PM *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject:* Re: [WSG] hello That's art, Kat, design is different. And design is a significant part of the web. On Feb 12 2008, at 22:52, Katrina wrote: kevin mcmonagle wrote: yes its a buzzword mostly but from a design standpoint its also a genre. That's an interesting thought. Is Web 2.0 larger than the web itself? Has it become an art movement/period, in the same way as Modernism, Post-Modernism, Humanism, Impressionism, etc? Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] an accessible question: server-side vs client-side validation
Hi Tee, What John is saying is that AJAX is JavaScript yes, but it can also make calls to the server (using the XMLHttpRequest object) thus it validates using server-side technologies such as PHP. But what is misleading is that validation using AJAX can be disabled quite easily simply by disabling JavaScript rendering a nice big security hole. That is where the true server-side validation must double-check. Actually, as Mike said you can and should use both. Server-side validation makes the user wait, so using JavaScript is a good thing as it is reactive and keeps the user informed as to what is going on. If you are interested, I wrote a small JS library that may be of use to you. It is a plug'n'play like JS file to automagically validate basic forms which is totally unobtrusive and promotes separation of concerns. To add extra fancy AJAX stuff is a matter of overriding a class and implementing your specific needs. I've still got a bit of work to do on it, but you can certainly get an idea. The url is: http://www.onegeek.com.au/articles/programming/javascript-form-validation.php I'd be happy to help you if you need, just shoot us through an email. Cheers, Matt On 2/12/08, Mordechai Peller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: tee wrote: Hi, I have a question about server-side vs client-side validation. I always use a same PHP form script that works really great and it's server-side validation using condition and requirement, and I like the feature better than client-side's. A website I was working on, client wants client-side validation, something fancy, something Ajax. I like to stick with this form script because it has a great support for anti-spam; I suppose I can turn off the server-side validation if client-side validation is used, but I am concerned with the accessibility issue - I am particular curious how screen readers treat client-side validation. As important as accessibility is, there is an issues many times more important which is relevant to your question: security. Unless you implement sever-side validation (either in addition to client-side, or instead of), neither yours, nor your visitors data is safe. For example, via SQL injection your database can become an open book to a cracker. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] an accessible question: server-side vs client-side validation
Hi Tee, It sure is, I have actually implemented it locally but a bit of testing is needed. It was more a test-of-prinicple kind of thing that actually turned out useful. So we don't move off topic however, I will reply to your email privately about the library instead of the WSG list. Cheers, Matt On 2/13/08, tee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Matt, thank you very much! Your JS library looks very interesting and I certainly will play with it. I see that the radio group has not been implemented, is this something coming out soon? The web form has radio buttons with multi-selection options. Cheers, tee On Feb 12, 2008, at 2:12 AM, Matt Fellows wrote: Hi Tee, What John is saying is that AJAX is JavaScript yes, but it can also make calls to the server (using the XMLHttpRequest object) thus it validates using server-side technologies such as PHP. But what is misleading is that validation using AJAX can be disabled quite easily simply by disabling JavaScript rendering a nice big security hole. That is where the true server-side validation must double-check. If you are interested, I wrote a small JS library that may be of use to you. It is a plug'n'play like JS file to automagically validate basic forms which is totally unobtrusive and promotes separation of concerns. To add extra fancy AJAX stuff is a matter of overriding a class and implementing your specific needs. I've still got a bit of work to do on it, but you can certainly get an idea. The url is: http://www.onegeek.com.au/articles/programming/javascript-form-validation.php I'd be happy to help you if you need, just shoot us through an email. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
Forms should be marked up as you would anything else; If you are placing a paragraph in the form you should use a p. If you are placing a list inside the form you should use a ul/ol, if you are placing headings inside the form you should use h1-h6 etc. etc. The inputs should be arranged using div's instead of tables of course, unless you are presenting tabular data inside the form. Simple hey! On 2/6/08, Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've been looking at styling forms and I'm seeing some people mark them up as ordered lists and other using paragraphs. What are the arguments for the different markup types. -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] This IE8 controversy
A great point Casey. MS have taken the first major step in moving towards a standards compliant industry and we, the web designer, are complaining that it's going to break our old sites hacked up for IE6/IE7. The saying says 'we can't have our cake and eat it too', but in fact we can. We have asked for standards compliance and we are getting it. Unfortunately this was inevitably going to happen and it is the users that are punished for doing nothing. As professionals, we need to deal with it much the same way as we dealt with the non-standards compliance of previous versions. The only difference is that we are now moving in the _right_ direction. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Explorer woes with list dropdowns
A JavaScript function that you might be interested in is called the 'Suckerfish' technique. It is a well known problem that IE is difficult at best in these situations so to avoid lots of css hacks etc. you can use a little bit of JS instead. It's accessible, standards compliant and easy to use. There is a nice article about it here: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/dropdowns On 1/29/08, Karl Lurman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IE6 doesn't respect the *:hover pseudo selector if I remember rightly... It only supports it for anchors, e.g a:hover You may have to look at a small bit of javascript to 'activate' this behavior. Im pretty sure this is your problem for IE browsers. Karl On Jan 29, 2008 2:52 PM, Shane Helm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello fellow web standard groupies. I have built a dropdown menu using lists. It works in Firefox and Safari but doesn't seem to work in IE6 or 7. Any suggestions? http://www.treasurehillskihomes.com/TESTING/navtest.html Greatly appreciated! Shane Helm www.sonze.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] email abuse (OT)
This is not the appropriate forum to be raising these types of issues. There are plenty of places elsewhere from which you can find more information about spam detection and filtering. My suggestion would be to start with Google, as they are your particular email host. Cheers, -- Matt OneGeek http://www.onegeek.com.au On 12/7/07, dwain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: who would i notify about email abuse. someone is using my gmail address to spam for viagra? any help would be appreciated. dwain -- dwain alford The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] To autostretch a page border
I have a 2 pixel wide page border that needs to maintain its autostretched
limit to the browser window, as it gets filled with content. The code I've
supplied below *apparently* does what's needed in IE6. It doesn't work
the same with Firefox 2.0. Resizing the browser window behaves expectedly in
both browsers. Scrolling doesn't.
!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd;
html
head
meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=utf-8
titlePage Border/title
style
html, body {
height: 100%;
}
body {
background: #fff;
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
border: 2px solid #000;
color: #000;
}
.content {
min-height: 100%;
padding: 10px;
text-align: center;
}
/style
/head
body
div class=content
h2Paragraph Heading/h2
p
This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
/p
h2Paragraph Heading/h2
p
This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
/p
h2Paragraph Heading/h2
p
This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
/p
h2Paragraph Heading/h2
p
This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
/p
h2Paragraph Heading/h2
p
This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
/p
h2Paragraph Heading/h2
p
This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
/p
/div
/body
/html
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Re: [WSG] Auto scaling within a table's background image
Kepler,
Looks like you got right down to the nuts and bolts. Honestly, you
may have inadvertently isolated the nerve of my problem. I was lost in
attempting the use of z-index with absolute positioning. After a few
vain attempts at adjusting the top and left to bring the imageoverlay
within the portion marked CONTENT GOES HERE, I figured I'd have
better luck finding a way to scale an image within a table. Hence the
misleading initial posts !
I'd have to agree on the thumbnailing during ingestion vs.
post-asset-fetch being the better approach. It reduces transfer load
on the response objects and several other inherent delays. However,
the current approach is more for prototyping purposes as well as
settling an off-topic pending point.
Could you show me how to correctly position the image overlay in
the content-reserved portion in my example.
Thanks,
Matt
On 8/1/07, Kepler Gelotte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
My dilemna was and still is to autofit an image of any size (entire image
should be viewable) within the table's background image property using the
style attribute. This table is currently no more than roughly 100 pixels
on either side.
Hi Matt,
Here is a sample mockup I created using an overlay technique. Substitute the
table for the div in your case. A better approach may be to resize the image
on the server when the user uploads it using the GD2 library. I used the
image resizing and cropping facilities for my home grown CMS.
html
head
style
img.stretch {
width:
500px;
height: 300px;
z-index: -1;
position: absolute;
top:
50;
left:
50;
}
div.overlay {
width:
500px;
height: 300px;
z-index: 1;
position: absolute;
top:
50;
left:
50;
}
/style
/head
body
div
class=overlayHere is some text/div
img
src=logo.jpg class=stretch /
/body
/html
Best of luck,
Kepler Gelotte
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Re: [WSG] Auto scaling within a table's background image
Hassan, The specific portion of the code I'm having a problem with was inlcuded on my first post. The code that was not included is just regular table based border wrapping. I bet most if not all the members here are of the been there, done that experience level, which is why I didn't bother illustrating it. I'm going to write an example here for your convenience: table id=outer_layout width=100 border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 !-- 1st row begins here -- tr td width=10 height=10 img src=top_left.gif width=10 height=10 /td td width=80 height=10 img src=top.gif width=80 height=10 /td td width=10 height=10 img src=top_right.gif width=10 height=10 /td /tr !-- 1st row ends here -- !-- 2nd row begins here -- td width=10 height=80 img src=left.gif width=10 height=80 /td !-- CONTENT GOES HERE -- td width=10 height=80 img src=right.gif width=10 height=80 /td !-- 2nd row ends here -- !-- 3rd row begins here -- tr td width=10 height=10 img src=bottom_left.gif width=10 height=10 /td td width=80 height=10 img src=bottom.gif width=80 height=10 /td td width=10 height=10 img src=bottom_right.gif width=10 height=10 /td /tr !-- 3rd row ends here -- The portion commented as CONTENT GOES HERE is a placeholder for how an image needs to be displayed. A simple img embedded in a td will work. For another notch, a table element that allows it cells to act as overlays is possible too. This is the approach I've taken. A rough example was included on my first post. If you follow the responses to it, there were suggestions to get most of what I intended it for, done in CSS, as it was considered standard. So the quote below was meant to be a response to individuals who knew how. I'm still waiting on someone to post a newer standardized approach to acheive the same effect. Matt On 8/1/07, Hassan Schroeder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matt wrote: I guess there were a couple of concerns raised. One of them was the justification of the table's use. I chose it only because it is currently the only way I know to put pretty borders (outer and inner) around and within an image. / I'm still waiting on someone to post a newer standardized approach to acheive the same effect. I think you'd have a better chance of getting specific help if you posted a complete example (or two) of your current approach. :-) -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Auto scaling within a table's background image
My goal is to set the background image of a table and add individual cells (text or images) that can be opaque or transparent. The height and width of the table is fixed. The image that needs to be set in the table background however, is not under my control, and can be larger or smaller than the table's viewing area. Tagging the code as shown below does not automatically up/down-scale the image to fit within the desired viewing area: table width=100 height=50 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 border=0 style=background-image:url(images/image1.gif);background-position: center; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-attachment: fixed; tr td img src=... /td td width=30/td td some text here... /td /tr /table Is there a standardized way to present this without resolving to a Javascript or CSS hack ? Matt *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Auto scaling within a table's background image
Mark, It was my impression that tables provide a very flexible way to define boundaries and sub sections within those, regardless of content type - video, image, text... I kept my question short for the sake of brevity. However, I'll eventually need a structure that has several images that forms a border with shadow around the particular table background image in question. The sizes and scaling for these secondary images are easily computed with the help of a table. Further more, some parts of this table will provide constrained texts (think text within an image slide). On top of this, several such tables will form part of a bigger table (this concept is quite similar to a thumbnail view of a slide show) If you perceive the general idea, perhaps you might have examples that illustrate this using CSS ? Matt On 7/31/07, Mark L Hedley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just use CSS and DIVS? Tables are not so good for this type of thing. Cheers. *Regards,* Mark Hedley *Voxia Web Development Solutions * *Mobile: +44 07894 009 932* *Office: +44 01670 840 752** **Web:**http://www.voxia.co.uk*** * * Proud Members of: GAWDS (Guild of Accessible Web Designers) | Web Standards Group | Independent Web Developers Portal | HTML Writers Guild *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Matt *Sent:* 31 July 2007 17:03 *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject:* [WSG] Auto scaling within a table's background image My goal is to set the background image of a table and add individual cells (text or images) that can be opaque or transparent. The height and width of the table is fixed. The image that needs to be set in the table background however, is not under my control, and can be larger or smaller than the table's viewing area. Tagging the code as shown below does not automatically up/down-scale the image to fit within the desired viewing area: table width=100 height=50 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 border=0 style=background-image:url(images/image1.gif);background-position: center; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-attachment: fixed; tr td img src=... /td td width=30/td td some text here... /td /tr /table Is there a standardized way to present this without resolving to a Javascript or CSS hack ? Matt *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Auto scaling within a table's background image
Daniel, Consider an online photo album. Once you're on the page, the thumbnails for any content (video/images) only consumes a certain portion of a page, say about 60-75%, much like the content area for an online email service. In order to make the thumbnails look presentable and informative, one could surround these with borders that represent the type of content. The sky's the limit on the aesthetics. Without CSS3, well rounded corner images with shadow effects often end up being segmented into a fair amount of files, especially if the user has some say in how these borders look. The user would be presented with different border colors, edges, shadows, etc., to finally decide how these thumbnails become usable. Some part of these thumnails might reserve space to present the name of the image, or perhaps the date they were created, and so on... Now, should these scale flexibly as the browser goes full screen, or if the desktop resolution changes ? Probably not today, for most needs. However, it would help to keep the approach open enough for such requirements in the future. What is certain is that images come in all sizes. Short of pre-scaling the image with Javascript or other server side tools prior to presenting in the above discussed format, I would be interested to see it done using a simpler HTML/CSS approach. I have tried a couple of methods inlcuding tagging the img between a td element with the appropriate width and height. It works. However, I lose the ability to set other partial images or CSS colored lines on top of this. With an image set as a table background, any TD cell can contain an image or text style even, that can be used to overlay the background. Doing it dynamically through DIVs won't be a problem as well. This approach suits almost all of my needs, except for the fact that the image won't fit completely within the table background defined space. Matt On 7/31/07, Daniel Kendrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matt, Give me more details. What type of border is this around your page content? like if you had a square you have a series of images surrounding this square creating a border? So that if the square scales the border scales with it? I am no purist however i do believe tables should be used for tabular data and the extra time should be taken to find a suitable solution using CSS. I have done several things using the parent child relationship CSS has to offer. --DK On 7/31/07, Matt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mark, It was my impression that tables provide a very flexible way to define boundaries and sub sections within those, regardless of content type - video, image, text... I kept my question short for the sake of brevity. However, I'll eventually need a structure that has several images that forms a border with shadow around the particular table background image in question. The sizes and scaling for these secondary images are easily computed with the help of a table. Further more, some parts of this table will provide constrained texts (think text within an image slide). On top of this, several such tables will form part of a bigger table (this concept is quite similar to a thumbnail view of a slide show) If you perceive the general idea, perhaps you might have examples that illustrate this using CSS ? Matt On 7/31/07, Mark L Hedley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just use CSS and DIVS? Tables are not so good for this type of thing. Cheers. *Regards,* Mark Hedley *Voxia Web Development Solutions * *Mobile: +44 07894 009 932* *Office: +44 01670 840 752** **Web:**http://www.voxia.co.uk *** * * Proud Members of: GAWDS (Guild of Accessible Web Designers) | Web Standards Group | Independent Web Developers Portal | HTML Writers Guild *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Matt *Sent:* 31 July 2007 17:03 *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject:* [WSG] Auto scaling within a table's background image My goal is to set the background image of a table and add individual cells (text or images) that can be opaque or transparent. The height and width of the table is fixed. The image that needs to be set in the table background however, is not under my control, and can be larger or smaller than the table's viewing area. Tagging the code as shown below does not automatically up/down-scale the image to fit within the desired viewing area: table width=100 height=50 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 border=0 style=background-image:url(images/image1.gif);background-position: center; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-attachment: fixed; tr td img src=... /td td width=30/td
[WSG] Organising Infinity: A Web Content Management symposium, Brisbane - Saturday June 2, 2007
Hello All, Posting the following on behalf of Sylvia Edwards, Assistant Dean Teaching Learning, Faculty of Information Technology here at Queensland University of Technology. A number of the papers, posters and presentations being shown at the symposium discuss accessibility, usability and web standards within the context of Web Content Management at universities and other large organisations. Apologies for late notice, but for those in Brisbane (or who might be in Brisbane on Saturday!) if you're interested, would be great to see you there. Best Regards, Matt QUT is hosting the 2nd annual web content symposium Organising Infinity: Web Content Management into the Future on Saturday June 2nd, 2007. The symposium is to be held at the QUT's Gardens Point Campus in the Owen J Wordsworth room. The Keynote speakers for this years event include John Allsopp, a world renowned software developer in the area of content management, and Susan Rigney, the Manager of the Queensland Archives Digital Government Unit. John is well known as an educator and presenter in the area of content management having had 15 years of experience in working with and developing for the web and also created the term Web 2.0. is the second Keynote Speaker. Sue will present on digital preservation challenges in the 21st century. The symposium brings together current ideas in the area on information management and enables networking opportunities with professionals in the field of web content management. The Organising Infinity website can be found at www.infinity.fit.qut.edu.au http://www.infinity.fit.qut.edu.au/ which gives program details and starting times. Please note: Registrations are still open and can be taken at the door on the day of the event. For further information please contact Sylvia Edwards on [EMAIL PROTECTED] or (+61 7) 3138 2759. = Matthew Bailey Web Systems Developer QUT Web Team ITS Client Quality Services Phone: (07) 3138 9307 (x89307) http://www.its.qut.edu.au/webteam/ CRICOS No: 00213J = *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Web design education
Hi John,How long ago was this per chance?I find your comments very interesting because it's taken right from direct experience in formal web education (albeit to graphic designers at the time).In essense, higher/further education guidelines (IT/Graphic Design or otherwise) don't seem to be able to bridge the gap between basic 'HTML know-how' and 'Web Standards-friendly' web design techniques. This is an extremely important foundation for shaping a web design community that is more web-standards aware...and it's an epic task to try and overhaul this in one country - yet alone the world at large (!) I greatly appreciate insights from educators (or former educators) such as yourself - because it gives other web design professionals a greater sense of what the educational establishments are teaching to the next generation of potential web professionals. Regards,Matt---http://www.mattrobin.comOn 16/02/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've been following this discussion with great interest.I've taught HTML, CSS and _javascript_ at a TAFE, but not as part of acoding course, as part of a graphic design course. That's aninteresting environment in which to think about standards -- the students were totally focused on design and graphics, and were reallylearning three applications: Photoshop, FireWorks and DreamWeaver,rather than what web pages were all about. A brief excursion intosource code left them for the most part baffled, if not horrified. Why would anybody do it that way when we have Dreamweaver?I agree with points others have made:1) IT staff have an amazing amount of control over what is allowed --to the detriment of the students' learning what happens in the real world. Not one of my students had ever FTPd a file to a server so,for instance, all their paths had to be relative and they could makemistakes with case-sensitivity with impunity.2) Syllabuses are either out of date, or more likely, so general as to be meaningless -- students on my _javascript_ course had to learn ascripting language. Students on my HTML course had to learn amarkup language. I could have taught them Visual Basic and SGML and been entirely within the guidelines.3) There's no time -- I taught a class of fifteen graphic designersthe very basics of HTML in a class lasting in total, five hours orso. When they said how do I get two columns in my page? I taught them to do a table. Mea Culpa. I did, of course, explain about tableversus div positioning, font tags versus CSS, but I didn't attempt toteach them two completely different languages in that very shorttime. If they achieved a valid page with an h1, a couple of ps and a working link, I was happy. But I can't say I advanced the causeof standards much...Have You Validated Your Code? John Horner(+612 / 02) 8333 3594Developer, ABC Kids Onlinehttp://www.abc.net.au/ **The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help**
Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site
On 10/02/06, Lachlan Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Angus at InfoForce Services wrote: Most people have JAVAScript turned off, According to what statistics? I think you'll find most people actually have it turned on. Indeed. I can report from some recent testing on the sites I work on (which have hundreds of thousands of members, and thousands of simultaneous users), that less than 0.1% of users had Javascript turned off. They're dating sites, so they're probably skewed more towards the home/casual user than the office user, but still... I was surprised it was so stark. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site
On 10/02/06, Angus at InfoForce Services [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lachlan and Matt Thank you for the information. I should recheck. Do you have information about International web users? For the sites I referred to as having less than 0.1% of members with Javascript turned off, the users are largely in Europe - especially Netherlands, Spain and UK. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: Moral High-horse - was Re: [WSG] Failed Redesign and the Media
On 01/02/06, russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a far-from-guru-status Web Standards supporter/coder (I try) I have witnessed, on this list and on another css-specific list, quite a bit of condescending and 'forced-opinion' type of replies. It doesn't make for a nice atmosphere when looking to these lists for help. Completely agree. The most common off-list comments I receive are along the lines of a great list, very helpful, but sometimes a bit of attitude. That's interesting feedback. I too dislike, and never engage in, the disparaging of those who perhaps know less than others and are trying to learn. In my own defence, I think a bit of light-hearted teasing is justified in this case: clearly Clear Blue Sky had not bothered to keep in touch with web development trends *at all* for the last several years. They are obviously not even trying to learn (so far) - and you have to admit, their reasons were pretty comical. If they'd invested 5 minutes in googling these reasons, they would have realised that things have moved on (and that, on one of these reasons, they were probably never right in the first place). Having said that, I'll just leap on to my web standards shetland pony and ride off into the sunset. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Failed Redesign and the Media
On 31/01/06, Kat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kat wrote: Their answer was that they used the table-based layout because they did not like the way style sheets render in IE, and that encoding is not utilised for search engine reasons. Wow. Those guys *really* have some catching up to do. Wonder what it's like emerging from a 1998 time capsule... ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Help with CSS ul
Jose - Probably a margin padding issue. Try reducing the padding margin and position the bullets with the xy positioning on the background rule for the li or a:li. I'm not that great with css, you'll probably get some better answers. Have a nice holiday. Matt Hello, Does anyone can help me? I want to know why in IE my side bar is wrong i mean the bullets are not in the rigth place, and when i see it in Firefox its ok... is there a css hack that i need for IE? Thanks for your help. PD: Sorry about the last message that i sent it had the wrong subject accidentally -- José Kusunoki G. Diseñador [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.constantconcept.com (511) 97004563 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Pipe separated lists
On 12/12/05, Gunlaug Sørtun [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...I'm just not sure it makes really good sense to add any kind of separators between links since they don't add any value from a usability point of view. They are just visuals that may come out as noise. I agree with you, Georg. My preference in this situation is to return to the basics - separate content from presentation. In the markup, just have a simple list; and use CSS to add border-left (or -right) to simulate pipe separators (as in that Google variant). ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] italic and validator
On 12/12/05, Bert Doorn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmmm, so (to go along with the Google debate), we can save more bandwidth by omitting html, head and body? Interesting. Indeed, and Rimantas did just that in his version: http://rimantas.com/bits/google/google.html I'm slightly wary of doing this, wondering how assorted older user agents might deal with it... ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards
On 10/12/05, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12/9/05, Lea de Groot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/12/2005, at 1:20 AM, matt andrews wrote: Hi Lea, I completely agree. Google have somehow developed a blind spot when it comes to meeting even the basics of current web standards. As an exercise, I just threw together a valid version of the Google Search page: blog entry: http://tbp.xomerang.com/?p=18 example page: http://xomerang.com/testpages/google/validGoogle.html Hey, cool stuff! :) I thought about doing that, but decided I didn't have time. Interestingly, comparing the two pages in http://www.websiteoptimization.com/services/analyze/ shows the original is *slightly* lighter (but I bet you could beat that by removing more carriage returns, same as the original) Hmmm... the javascript isn't there... I wonder if it would add much weight - I wonder if its reused on other pages. I don't think the comparision is valid without it. :( Lea Matt's example has more text, which explains the difference... and imagine if the CSS and JS were in an external file... how often do people reuse Google throughout the day? If all those users cached the files, we're talking about drastic reductions in Google's bandwidth. It wouldn't be hard at all to lighten the page... but we knew it was a good idea even before the example. Quite right - I had started with a heavier version of the page than the default, with Google Desktop, signed in to account, etc., which added a bit of text and Javascript. Now I've done a new version, based on the simpler page that the W3C validator gets back from www.google.com. Invalid (original) page (with just 21 chars added to get a full url for the logo image): http://xomerang.com/testpages/google/invalidGoogle.html (2,654 bytes) Updated valid page, based on the above: http://xomerang.com/testpages/google/validGoogle.html (1,953 bytes) I retained the one-line Javascript in the head, but all styles are in an external CSS file: http://xomerang.com/testpages/google/validGoogle.css (636 bytes) So even for a one-off request, with no cached CSS, the valid version is 2589 bytes - *still* lighter weight than the current invalid version. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards
On 09/12/05, Lea de Groot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 08/12/2005, at 10:29 PM, James Ellis wrote: Having a valid frontend has nothing to do with whether an organisation attempts to be socially responsible. I'm sure there are heaps of slightly dodgy organisations out there that hire programmers who understand standards. See, thats where I differ - I think that to say 'we do this other stuff thats Good, so we don't have to worry about something as trivial as Web Standards'[1] undermines all our work, which we like to think makes the world a Better Place. By declining to support Standards they implicitly state that it isn't important, and as I think it Is important, I feel they are not doing good, they are doing... that other thing ;) By being a big company (and by golly by market valuation they are absolutely Huge these days!) they implicitly make a massive statement about the value of something simply by ignoring it :( Lea [1] And, I must point out, in fact, they don't say any such thing - as usual they don't say anything at all about the matter. No one knows why they've never spent the 2.5 hours required to bring at least the home page up to standards... Lea de Groot Hi Lea, I completely agree. Google have somehow developed a blind spot when it comes to meeting even the basics of current web standards. As an exercise, I just threw together a valid version of the Google Search page: blog entry: http://tbp.xomerang.com/?p=18 example page: http://xomerang.com/testpages/google/validGoogle.html ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: Fw: [WSG] Call for Site Check
Thanks, Jay. yeay, the text on the slide rollovers was a pretty tough call - but in the end I decided on such low contrast text in order to keep the photo the primary focus. I'm not to worried about it, since the text is secondary content. Also, the banner is actually a duplicate link to the home page. (: Best regards, -Matt Harris www.focusontheclouds.com
Re: [WSG] firefox 1.5 is official
On 30/11/05, Felix Miata [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, the question remains, does a release version profile with web dev installed work without doing anything special when upgrading the release version from 1.0.x to 1.5? And the answer is: yes. (for me, on WinXPSP2, from 1.0.7, with planets in their current alignments...) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Call for Site Check
Just re-worked my photography site: www.focusontheclouds.com and wanted to get your opinions. I've strayed into new territory - opting for a slightly-risky, dark background instead of sticking with a classic white background. I'm interested to hear if you think it works... Development has been mostly on the PC, so Mac users, let me know if you run into any obvious problems. Everything should be working good in Firefox and Opera - only thing that is missing in IE is the hover effect for photo lists. Looking forward to your input and thanks for your help! -Matt Harris www.focusontheclouds.com
Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1
On 23/11/05, Geoff Pack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree with Bert - use the start attribute and a transitional dtd. It's cleaner, more concise, and captures exactly the semantics of what you are doing. You don't need the div around the text info though. Of course you could always write out the first 39 empty list-items and hide them :) Agree with Bert and Geoff here. The dropping of 'start' attribute from strict DTD was, and is, a controversial W3C decision - one with which I disagree, personally. There are plenty of plausible and sensible scenarios for having an ordered list start with something other than 1... this NLA case being an excellent example. This is one case where I would regard (this particular aspect of) validation as being a hindrance rather than a help. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Verb this link (WAS Click here--reference)
On 21/09/05, Blank Blank [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/21/05, Lea de Groot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not on this don't use verbs boat at all because I haven't yet found (or just missed :( ) a justification for it. While I don't by default, or even often, use a verb in a link, sometimes I do. For instance, one of the pages on a current project allows you to view a video. The link is a href=trainingVideo1.wmvDownload Video Now/a, on the download page, but the links throughout the site that point to that page say similar to: You can view a a href= something.htmlvideo clip/a The difference is that one points to a page and one allows you to do something (in this case view a movie) Verbs can be very useful. I don't understand the blanket ban. At the same time, I wouldn't be terribly upset to see: You can a href=something.htmlview a video clip/a Why is this bad? warmly, Although to view a video, one technically needs to download it first (or at least a portion of it -- ie streaming), I think the real problem with using verbs in link text, is that you are assuming the user will do something, or that something is going to happen. In the video example, one may have an embedded movie player in their browser, hence I would think of this as playing a video, as opposed to downloading it. Evening viewing could be thought of as inappropriate, what if the user is blind? Although it's quite bland, something along the lines of: A a href=videovideo clip/a is available. makes more sense to me. Cheers, Daniel Nitsche I'm with Lea here. What about 'Search'? 'Browse'? Trying to do grammatical acrobatics to turn these into non-verbs is, to me, ridiculous and counter-productive. There are many many cases where a user is, in down-to-basics terms, taking an action when they follow a link. No matter whether the technical reality is that they are being presented with a static document... in straightforward user terms, it's taking an action. This is one guideline I disagree with and will not be following. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Know any standard's compliant WYSIWYG XHTML editors for a CMS integration?
I'm looking for a standard's compliant WYSIWYG XHTML editor to be included in a custom-built CMS. It needs to works with IE, Firefox, and Safari. It should run directly from the browser and not require users to download and install any lcoal plug-ins. Has this been created yet? Has anyone seen up-to-date reviews of the latest and greatest WYSIWYG editors? Best regards, Matt Harris www.focusontheclouds.com
Re: [**] [WSG] Know any standard's compliant WYSIWYG XHTML editors for a CMS integration?
Scott, Thanks for the link to xStandard. However, I'm looking for a solution which doesn't require any local machine software and cab allow for multiple rich text areas on one page. Does xstandard meet those requirements? Also, unfortunately I haven't recieved any CMS invitations. Do you have a link to the list? Thanks! Matt Harris www.focusontheclouds.comOn 8/26/05, scott reston [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:you're probably about to get an invitation to join the CMS list from about 5 people... that's probably a better forum for the question...that said, i've been happy with XStandard (xstandard.com). veryconfigurable and xhtml-friendly.works in IE and FF on a pc. OSX support for FF is slated for this fall, i understand.scott restonraleigh, ncMatt Harris wrote: I'm looking for a standard's compliant WYSIWYG XHTML editor to beincluded in a custom-built CMS.It needs to works with IE, Firefox, and Safari.It should run directly from the browser and not require usersto download and install any lcoal plug-ins. Has this been created yet?Has anyone seen up-to-date reviews of thelatest and greatest WYSIWYG editors? Best regards, Matt Harris www.focusontheclouds.com http://www.focusontheclouds.com **The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help**
[WSG] iCalendar Questions
Does anyone have any good iCalendar resources to share? Other than hCal, I can't find many good iCal examples, let alone tutorials. I hope this is an appropriate question for the WSG -- if not, where else could I look for answers? Matt Hampel ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Need recomendations for CMS system
I'll second the Textpattern reccomendation. It's free, and the learning curve is very reasonable. It's easy for complete beginners to use the system. And it cuts development time by a siginifigant ammount because it uses a logical, non-constraining template system. Matt On 8/16/05, morten fjellman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What kind of scale project are you looking at? Small site, large site, large enterprise...? The system will be used for all kinds of sites, but mostly for small/medium businesses. Most of my clients want to update their site themselves, but I don't want to give them the oppurtunity of messing up my code/mark-up. So first and formost the system need to spit out divs instead of tables, and the text-editor needs to be xhtml-complient. Thanks Fjellman On 8/16/05, heretic [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am looking for a CMS system that will produce code/mark-up that follows web standards. A lot of systems spits out tables and weird tags that doesn't validate. I'm mostly interested in freeware, but if I need to buy one to get such a system then that's fine too. I have been searching the net for awhile, but I'm not sure that I will recognize the best system even if I find it. What kind of scale project are you looking at? Small site, large site, large enterprise...? h -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Site Review Please - www.SalmonRecipes.Net
Nicely done! I have a quick question for you (or anyone)... what is the purpose of this code?
#content-ctr:after{ display:block; visibility:hidden; content:.; clear:both; height:0; }/* \*/* html #content-ctr{height:1%}/* */
--
Thanks!
Matt Harris
www.focusontheclouds.com
On 8/2/05, David Laakso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
David Nicol wrote:Hello everyone,I would really appreciate your comments about our recently redevelopedhttp://www.salmonrecipes.net/ site.
DavidNice stuff(I mean Salmon), David. I had to go rather extraordinary meansto find any problem-- if, in fact, some of these browsers are even inyour clients market:
http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=180563. When you havetime to get around to it, you may feel like correcting the couple ofminor css errors.
Regards,David Laakso--David Laaksohttp://www.dlaakso.com/**The discussion list for
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Re: [WSG] Site Review Please - www.SalmonRecipes.Net
Thanks, David!On 8/2/05, David Nicol [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matt,I'm reliably informed by our in-house CSS 'guru' that you'll find youranswer here@http://www.positioniseverything.net/easyclearing.html Hope this makes some sense.CheersDavid
Re: [WSG] Problem in Firefox on initial page load only
On 27/07/05, Hope Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 27/7/05 8:00 PM, Jorge Laranjo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At the bottom of the page, you have a p class=clear/p make that p class=clearnbps;/p p class=clearnbsp;/p Note, nbsp; and not nbPS; When I've needed to clear a floated, I've used: div class=clear/div which seems to work, though I haven't tested it in *every* browser. Are there any advantages of using p class=clearnbsp;/p over div class=clear/div? I've never put a nbsp; inside the div class=clear/div. Should I? A nicer approach, IMHO, is not to use markup for clearing at all: http://www.positioniseverything.net/easyclearing.html ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] A Fixed Understanding
On 28/07/05, Chris Kennon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Thanks, where I got confused is with the static attribute which does not take top, right, bottom and left values(http:// www.w3schools.com/css/pr_class_position.asp). So if an item is not positioned when using fixed, it is fixed relative to its containing element? here's an excellent introduction to CSS positioning - it will answer your question and many more: http://www.brainjar.com/css/positioning/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Understanding inheritance (well, trying to)
hi John
I'm afraid this is incorrect.
The quoted CSS selectors were for classes and IDs, without being
element-specific. Thus it makes no difference whether you apply the
class to a span or a div. There's no need for any extra markup. And
it seems to me that the question is one of explaining CSS specificity,
not asking for a change in markup.
Suggest you read Russ' earlier reply closely.
cheers,
matt andrews.
On 25/07/05, John Yip wrote:
When the ID and the CLASS have the different value on the same
attribute, the ID always wins. However, you can use span/span to
achieve what you want.
div id=hilite
pParagraph one/p
pspan class=normalParagraph two/span/p
pParagraph three/p
/div
Hope that helps
John
-Original Message-
From: listdad
On Behalf Of Hope Stewart
Sent: Saturday, 23 July 2005 5:41 PM
To: Web Standards Group
Subject: [WSG] Understanding inheritance (well, trying to)
There's something about inheritance that I don't understand. Say in my
style
sheet I have:
body { color: black }
#content {}
#hilite p { color: red }
If I have three paragraphs in the div #hilite and I want the text of one
of
them to be black instead of red, I define this class for that paragraph:
normal { color: black }
But I find this doesn't work. For it to work, I have to define the class
with the div ID, like this:
#hilite .normal { color: black }
What is it about the laws of inheritance that means the class alone
won't
work??
Hope Stewart
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Re: [WSG] Page check please - lionsq3
On 22/07/05, Rob Unsworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All, I need some help in checking the following page is rendering Ok in IE 5.x and IE 6. I am unable to test in these browsers due to a hd crash and the subsequent decision it was time to refurbish my system. Until finished I have no access to any version of Windows. All I can test on is the various brousers on Linux. I was asked to have this page functioning by our meeting on Sunday. The only feedback I have is from the person who requested that the page be ready by sunday. The feedback: Is there any reason the top of the page is blank? Asking what version of Windows he is using created only silence. I took a guess and made an adjustemt of 2% in the width of the dl. http://www.lionsq3.asn.au/phorms/cabinet/ The css for the list is at, http://www.lionsq3.asn.au/css/formlist.css The main css is at, http://www.lionsq3.asn.au/css/lionsq3.css hi Rob, That page looks broadly the same in Firefox1.0.5/WinXP as it does in IE6/WinXp, IE5.5/WinXP, and IE5.0/WinXP, except that in IE there is of course no background globe image. I suspect this is what he's referring to. I guess you could always hack in a rule for IE to specify the background image as not 'fixed'. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] small and big : accessibility usage?
Is there any reason at all to ever use small, and big? I know they are visual elements, but I thought I heard somewhere that small represents a tonal adjustment, for screen readers - such as *lowering* the tone of voice. em and strong provide levels of emphasis - but is there an opposite to that? The other end of the spectrum, I mean? MATTHOM matthom.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Exporting inline CSS
Quick question, I have a client with lots of HTML file that have inline CSS. (Over 300 docs) Good Lord, what was that previous author thinking!?? There's no escaping this problem - you're just gonna have to start from scratch. Don't waste your time with export/import methods. MATTHOM matthom.com/ On 5/31/05, Jacobus van Niekerk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, Quick question, I have a client with lots of HTML file that have inline CSS. (Over 300 docs) I am looking for some software, or way, that will export this inline css into a external css file. Or even just move it into a embedded style sheet. Thanks in advance for any help. Kind Regards Jacobus van Niekerk Creative Consultant web: http://www.catics.com/ | http://www.freelancecontractors.com tel: + 27 21 982 7805 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] CSS selectors: next adjacent element?
I know in CSS, there is a method to select the 'first child' of an element, as well as the 'first adjacent element', within an element. However, is there a way to select the 'next adjacent element' - within the same parent? Example: div class=picture /div h3Headline/h3 pParagraph text/p I want to be able to select *only the h3 elements, which follow a div class=picture element*. Or, to make it even better - I'd like to be able to select *any element* that follows a div class=picture element. Now, I could class every element that follows a div class=picture element, but I'd rather not. Anyone know if support for this exists, in CSS2 or 3? Thanks. MATTHOM ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS selectors: next adjacent element?
Do you mean something like
div.picture + h3 {...}
I'm pretty sure I mean that - I am, perhaps, confused on what the plus
(+) sign does.
I was under the impression that your example meant this:
div class=picture
h3.../h3
/div
.. rather than this:
div class=picture
...
/div
h3.../h3
-Matthom
On 5/24/05, Jan Brasna [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Do you mean something like
div.picture + h3 {...}
?
--
Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
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[WSG] CSS list spacing: margin or line-height?
I've noticed that the CSS 'line-height' property provides extra
spacing between list items, such as in an ordered list, unordered
list, as well as definition lists.
In the past, I've always used the 'margin' property to add spacing
between list items.
IE:
ul li
{
margin-bottom: 5px;
}
However, this works just as well:
ul li
{
line-height: 20px;
}
Both seem to do the trick, in many browsers.
I was wondering if anyone else uses 'line-height' - or do most people
use 'margin'?
Which would you think is more correct, in terms of 'CSS semantics'?
And please don't just point to a CSS 'line-height' or 'margin'
specification. I want to know you think, first...
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Re: [WSG] Playing a sound file - what is the best way?
I would use Flash to play the audio and provide an alternative link to the sound file as alternative content Yes, I agree. Flash is extremely versatile with handling audio files - and if you have even just a little experience with Flash, you can easily export a SWF file with an MP3 embedded. The issues that come up are: 1) making the reference to the SWF file, in HTML, standards compliant. 2) the actual file size of the music file - which, in turn, makes the exported SWF file just as large. I'm sure there are more issues I'm not aware of. But, all in all, if I were doing the same thing - I'd start with Flash, and work up from there, instead of trying to embed it like you had in the first example. MATTHOM On 5/17/05, sam sherlock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would use Flash to play the audio and provide an alternative link to the sound file as alternative content thanks SS Stevio wrote: I have a sound file that my client wants me to put on his web site. It is a radio advert that they currently have running. The format of the file is m4a (mp4). I have used a program that converts it to mp3 or other formats if required. What is the best way to go about including it on a web page, and keeping it standards compliant (to at least HTML 4.01 Transitional)? Including sound files is not something I often do, you'll be glad to know. I will also NOT be setting it to start playing itself, it will be up to the user! Should I keep it in the m4a format or use mp3 or use something else? I got it working with the following code: object width=160 height=16 classid=clsid:02BF25D5-8C17-4B23-BC80-D3488ABDDC6B codebase=http://www.apple.com/qtactivex/qtplugin.cab; param name=src value=media/advert.mp4 param name=autoplay value=false param name=controller value=true embed src=media/advert.mp4 width=160 height=16 autoplay=false controller=false pluginspage=http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/; /object However, it doesn't work in Firefox. I need something that will work in different browsers and different platforms. Does anyone know the best way to do this? Thanks, Stephen ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Formatting tables
Do you have a link to the table in question so we can see whats not working (and the way you want it to work?) hint : border-collapse : collapse; gets rid of the need for cellpadding and cellspacing in the html Yes, it's better to put all your presentational code in the CSS. I am under the impression that cellspacing is not yet supported in CSS - but cellpadding can be added with the padding property. I usually just use the cellspacing attribute within my table tag - but that's the only one. Everything else, regarding the table, is controlled with CSS. MATTHOM ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Valid blockquote scenarios?
Thanks for all of your help! MATTHOM On 5/7/05, James Ellis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi The WDG HTML 4.0 reference is a good guide to determine these things: http://htmlhelp.com/reference/html40/block/blockquote.html Cheers James ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Valid blockquote scenarios?
Hello, I'm having some trouble deciding if certain blockquote scenarios are valid, or semantically correct. Example 1: pblockquoteTEXT/blockquote/p OR blockquotepTEXT/p/blockquote OR blockquoteTEXT/blockquote - Is the p even necessary? If so, does it go INSIDE or OUTSIDE the blockquote? Example 2: dl dtTerm/dt ddblockquoteTEXT/blockquote/dd /dl -Where does the p go in this situation? Whether or not the p is inside or outside of the blockquote - is it even valid to have a p element WITHIN a dd element? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Headings within ul Navigation
Why do you want all those header tags in there- for display purposes? I don't think it's invalid - I just don't see the purpose yet It's probably better to just class the ul or li, such as ul class=heading1, and then style all those headings for the correct appearance. Matthom matthom.com/ On 5/4/05, Jamie Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey all, Does anyone know whether it's correct to use headings in your navigation? e.g. ul lih2Item/h2/li lih2Item/h2/li lih2Item/h2/li lih2Item/h2 ul lih3Sub Item/h3/li lih3Sub Item/h3/li lih3Sub Item/h3/li /ul /li lih2Item/h2/li lih2Item/h2/li /ul Is the above right or wrong? I'm doing this at the moment, thinking it's helping give semantic meaning to the page, but is it right? Thanks in advance, Jamie Mason ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Firefox bug?
I experience this vertical line problem quite a bit. It only happens on my Mac - using Firefox. It's something to do with Firefox, because it doesn't seem to happen in any other browser. Also, I don't recommend Firefox for the Mac. For the PC, it's great. The Mac version has issues. MATTHOM matthom.com/ On 4/29/05, designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ladies and gentlemen, I have been trying to produce a gallery thing without using a table, and my test file has four images in a vertical column. It all seems fine, except in FF1.0, where the second and fourth images display several dashed lines across the image. (on the face of it, they are all the same) If I refresh the page the lines disappear, but on scrolling they come back again. No other browser (by which I mean IE6 and 5.5, Opera, Mozilla) displays this problem. The file in question (which includes the CSS as yet) is at: http://www.treyarnon.fsworld.co.uk/wg/galleryv2.html If anyone could take a look and advise I'd be really grateful, as it's driving me nuts. The CSS is simple - the soln isn't. I'm using winXP and a Matrox graphics card (which may or may not be relevant, of course). I have also looked at this on two pc's . . . Thank you, Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] A HREF around a Flash Object?
Hi Everyone, hope you are well. I am currently developing a website for a customer who requires certain animated tiles which link through to other pages - they have decided to use Flash for these. I know in Flash hyperlinking to other pages is handled in the flash file itself. However, I wondered if there is a standards compliant way that I can wrap an A HREF around the flash object, so that the hyperlinking is controlled by the web page, not the flash file? That way users without Flash can still link through to the target page. Any Ideas? Cheers, Matt ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] GMail... Terrible!
On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:54:59 +1000, Gary Menzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There are plenty of accesible free webmail clients available. Explan to me why GMail has to make it's product accessible to everyone? It's not that Google *has to* make GMail accessible, semantic, minimal, and all the other qualities we admire in good website building. Of course they don't. But should people stop criticising them and shut up (to quote an infamous US cable shockjock )? Not at all. To me, it's a real shame that Google, which is creating some of the most amazing web experiences around (Google Maps, Google Suggest, GMail...), appears to be pretty much ignoring accessibility (in the case of GMail, anyway). Google has taken some huge steps forward in the world of browser-based applications. It has devised some amazing services, with great usability - for those that can get access to the sites. But it's made some poor choices along the way. I reckon it's possible to build those great web apps in a way that is degrades gracefully, is accessible, has clean and lean markup, complies with standards, and separates content from presentation. ... but I fear we are veering somewhat into a philosophical discussion here ... ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Thumbnail Image overlapping container DIV - Help Please
Hi WSG,
I have a problem with a site that I am working on, in that I have a
thumbnail image, and some text related to that image contained within
a DIV. If there is not much text, the thumbnail jumps out of its
container DIV. This can be seen here:
http://220.233.11.63:8080/
If you look about a quarter of the way down, there is an article
entitles French Enlist Rugby Police? (don't worry its dummy data!) -
you can see the effect there.
The style sheet can be viewed here:
http://220.233.11.63:8080/common/MainStyle.css
The style applied to the image is .TeaserThumbnail, which is as follows:
.TeaserThumbnail
{
float: right;
border: 1px solid #33;
margin: 0px 0px 4px 4px;
}
The text and the teaser Thumbnail are bound by the class TeaserContainer:
.TeaserContainer{
margin: 0px;
border-top-width: 1px;
border-top-style: dashed;
border-top-color: #66;
padding-top: 10px;
padding-right: 0px;
padding-bottom: 10px;
padding-left: 0px;
}
and here is the HTML:
div class=TeaserContainer
h3a href=Article_View.asp?ID=13French Enlist Rugby Police?/a/h3
h4a href=Default.asp?CategoryID=4Road to France/a, Monday, 24
January 2005/h4
pa href=Article_View.asp?ID=13img
src=/Images/Articles/19971_13-thumb.png alt=The Rugby
Police...class=TeaserThumbnail width=70 height=70//a
In a strange move, the french Rugby Association has Donec ac tellus. /p
/div
I did try putting a div underneath the text and image with clear:both,
this did fix the problem (the image and text remained within their
container) but it created a new issue, the teaser section jumped down
all the way below below the left and right columns because of the
clear:both (hope that makes sense!).
I am very new to coding in standards using XHTML/CSS, so I am a bit of
a novice, so for the sake of this thread, please ignore the fact that
i might have heavy CSS (its much better than my old nested table tag
soup).
Cheers,
Matt
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