Bill!, br/br/There are many different terms for the same thing. The most
well known in the Buddhist lexicon is 'dependent origination', but equally you
might come across 'dependent arising', inter pendent co-arising, 'conditioned
arising' and other such terms. They just mean that everything
Merle,
Buddha might not answer that question. No, actually he did. He calls it the
Dharma. We have to suppose he went through a rather quick version of it. But
he was an advanced student. He awakened suddenly upon seeing the Morning Star
...as we awaken suddenly if we have a good teacher.
Bill!,
As Philosophy students, we would sometimes joke:
So, are YOU the solipsist responsible for all this?
So I ask you, Bill!:
Are YOU the solipsist responsible for all this? ;-)
--Joe
PS Holiday greetings.
Bill! BillSmart@... wrote:
Edgar,
I had to look up 'solipsism' to be sure
Joe,
I hope he takes responsibility because when he goes we all go.
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote:
Bill!,
As Philosophy students, we would sometimes joke:
So, are YOU the solipsist responsible for all this?
So I ask you, Bill!:
Are YOU the
Ha! Yeah...you better WATCH OUT! Your very existence is dependent upon me,
you know...;)
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike uerusuboyo@... wrote:
Joe,
I hope he takes responsibility because when he goes we all go.
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe
Bill!,
I've seen you put it like this several times before, and I think you are being
a little amiss in how you're saying one small part of this.
I don't think you mean the concept doesn't exist out there.
I think you mean a kind of functioning that results in what looks to us like
cause
Mike, Bill!,
Yes, Bill!(!): you hear that?
Please take VERY good care of yourself! (and your realization).
(but that's a greeting that Zen people have given each other for centuries;
maybe now we know why?)
Take care,
--Joe
mike uerusuboyo@... wrote:
Joe,
I hope he takes
knowing..merle
I don't know Merle, do you?
Siska
From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2013 20:35:05 -0700 (PDT)
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.comZen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
ReplyTo:
Mike,
Thanks for your efforts in providing me this description and link.
On one hand this sounds to me not much different than the usual concept of
cause-and-effect except it is more inclusive. It doesn't just ascribe a causal
relationship between two events, or a combination of events to
Joe,
IMO all concepts (like cause-and-effect) are illusory. The 'exist' in the same
way all illusions 'exist'. The are created by us (humans, and maybe other
rational beings too)and superimposed on experience. I assume we do this
because it gives us a sense of order and therefore control
br/Bill!,br/br/I think the first thing that I have to make clear is that
I'm not talking about 'Buddhism'. I'm following the Buddha Dharma and let's not
forget that the last words of Buddha were to investigate for yourself his
teachings. I'm not following dogma, but the things I've experienced
Mike,
IMO when you talk about things such as 'dependent arising' or 'Buddha Dharma'
or anything from the Sutras you are talking about Buddhism not zen. Zen is
only concerned with realizing Buddha Nature. Nothing more, and all of these
other things have absolutely nothing to do with Buddha
Bill!,br/br/Ahh, here we go again! I notice you wrote that I'm talking
about Buddhism not zen [lower case 'z']. This is *your* idiosyncratic
interpretation and is out of step with every writer on the subject including
all the Patriarchs and Dogen. Lower case zen is not something outside of Zen
Merle,
Yes, that's why medical malpractice and mistakes are THE 4TH LEADING CAUSE OF
DEATH in the US
Edgar
On Mar 30, 2013, at 11:31 PM, Merle Lester wrote:
joe..doesn't the doctor call it a medical practise...they do here...merle
Dear Merle,
Doc wants to practice medicine
Interesting. Thanks Bill..
Edgar
On Mar 31, 2013, at 1:06 AM, Bill! wrote:
Edgar,
Using Bing I researched several references. One was
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_thyself .
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote:
Bill,
Mike,
This is largely correct and pretty well stated. The best model is that the
world of forms is analogous to a computer in which the laws of nature compute
the states of nature, both being information forms, just as computer software
and data are information forms.
Just as a computer
Bill,
You believe that illusion, by your definition the world of forms that follows
logical rules, arises or exists only in the mind.
This is incorrect because it assumes a dualism of mind versus an external
world. This dualism DOES NOT EXIST.
Thus the world of forms CANNOT be said to exist
Bill,
The world of forms is the manifestation of the reality of Buddha Nature.
The mind creates an additional set of forms which is an internal MODEL of the
external world of forms.
One needs to clearly understand which forms are in the mind (our cognitive
model of the world) and which in the
Edgar, br/br/I'm not surprised.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from
Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
Mike,
Many patriarchs do write from a Buddhist point of view, but you only have to
open any book recording koans or mondos to find zen discussed and communicated
with no reference to Buddhism or even Buddha. Even holding up a turnip is can
be a demonstration.
It's not a matter of finding
Mike and Edgar,
I don't think either of you can even imagine how completely nauseating Edgar's
comparison of reality and a computer's operating system is to me. It's got to
be the ultimate in human hubris and anthropomorphism.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen
Bill,
As usual you've got your understanding backwards. Computers work and software
works PRECISELY because the underlying logical system of computer logic mirrors
that of reality. That is the only way they could do what they do. They both use
essentially the same rules of logic.
So if the
Edgar, Edgar, Edgar...
I'm not going to spend a lot of time trying to win you over but will respond
just to make sure others that read these posts know you are misrepresenting my
previous posts - as usual.
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote:
Bill,
You believe
Edgar,
Rubbish, all rubbish no matter how many times you post it...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote:
Bill,
The world of forms is the manifestation of the reality of Buddha Nature.
The mind creates an additional set of forms which is an internal MODEL
Edgar,
Digital computers do operate on a very simple form of logic. What they are not
is a model of reality (I've never heard anyone claim that before) or even a
model of how humans think (I've heard that before). They are a model of how we
think we think.
...Bill!
--- In
Or as I like to point out the answer to Why? Is invariably the entire
history of the universe till now. Why is generally not a useful question.
Thanks,
--Chris
301-270-6524
On Mar 30, 2013 11:03 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Bill!,
There are many different terms for the same thing.
Bill,
It's rubbish only because you trash it in your mind.
It's a tremendous shame you aren't able to receive this teaching. If you could
you'd realize Zen mind 24/7 instead of the only 3 hours a week you say you do
now...
Edgar
On Mar 31, 2013, at 10:43 AM, Bill! wrote:
Edgar,
Chris,
Exactly! The current state of the world of forms is the computational result of
an immense network of cause and effect going back to the big bang
Aristotle was I think the first who recognized the several different categories
of cause; such as proximate cause, necessary cause,
Edgar, Merle,
So say the Attorneys' statistics! ;-)
Oh ...did they slip and mean that lawyer malpractice is the fourth leading
cause of death? Or is it the third?
Be healthy,
stay legal,
--Joe
PS Easter levity. Sorry, lawyers.
Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote:
Merle,
Yes, that's
Edgar,
Edgar insisted:
Understanding this mechanism is essential to Zen because only thus can one
realize 'the true nature of things'.
Falsity, and a disservice to readers. That's NOT how it happens. Just ask
Bill!(!)
This is where you differ from people who have progressed in practice to
Edgar,
Here again is the key to the falsity of your unfounded and non-experiential,
thought-built phantasms, your claims, claims that our experience in awakening
and afterwards do NOT support:
Edgar writes exactly errantly:
It is true that in meditation consciousness temporarily can turn
Chris,
Now, now. Don't be blinded by your vision.
You've just ANSWERED why it is not a useful question.
--Joe
Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote:
Or as I like to point out the answer to Why? Is invariably the entire
history of the universe till now. Why is generally not a useful question.
Edgar,
*You're* the trash merchant.
The realization is not in the sitting.
No WONDER you flunked out.
Drop-out!
Your mousey attempts at forging your own G.E.D. are glaringly obvious
compensation attempts. I have no sympathy for them.
I don't fault you in washing out, no; I fault you for
Joe,
True I never joined the yam leaf sect of Zen, but certainly never flunked or
dropped out of any. That's a delusion your mind seems to have created as a
desperate crutch for your ego. Far far from Zen I fear
So no I don't have an inscribed yam leaf diploma hanging on my wall as I'm
Edgar,
OK, because when I asked you if you had practiced formally, you never replied.
This seemed a fig-leaf for failure or prevarication. You might still make
good, and you have the floor.
--Joe
Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote:
Joe,
True I never joined the yam leaf sect of Zen, but
big bang theory..and it's only a theory...
there was life before the big bang..
that's just a part of the equation of life..which is endless... just as time is
timeless...
and as zen is realisation chattering and nit picking won't get you there...
if you don't know and don't
group...much of being human is about feelings..most of the time folk act on
their feelings... thinking rationally is in the too hard basket for many..if we
did the world would not be in the mess it is now... and don't tell me to spell
it out...merle
Edgar,
Digital computers do operate on
tis not chattering that will get you there ...be attentive and alert daily
walking and talking in the WAY...merle
Bill,
You believe that illusion, by your definition the world of forms that follows
logical rules, arises or exists only in the mind.
True.
This is incorrect because it
yes yes yes...REALISATION IS THE KEY!..MERLE
Bill,
You believe that illusion, by your definition the world of forms that follows
logical rules, arises or exists only in the mind.
This is incorrect because it assumes a dualism of mind versus an external
world. This dualism DOES NOT EXIST.
he realised..without realising the experience is worthless..merle.
Buddha didn't 'know', he EXPERIENCED what we now call Buddha Nature on the
morning of the 40th day he sat under the Bodhi Tree - or so the story goes...
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester
siska... because you asked what knowing was?...merle
Merle, what made you think I was telling you that all I know had been taught
by someone else?
Siska
From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2013
no..i am not saying that...you are siska...are you?..merle
Merle, are you saying that I'm not using my heart?
Siska
From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2013 20:33:40 -0700 (PDT)
To:
hands up who's read this book?... merle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pincher_Martin
merle
those who know.. realise
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~sai/prussell.htm
merle
those who know
that enough is enough
will always have enough
~~ lao tzu
edgar..
many cling and clutch to their yam leaf diploma ...
that is their way of knowing they have somehow made it...
it happens in all human activities..the clutching and clinging...and bloody
preaching!..
merle
Joe,
I lived in Japan 3 years. During that time I sought out and
No, Merle. No.
It REMAINS a theory because of the evidence in support of it.
If it were refuted, it would not still be in contention.
--Joe
Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
big bang theory..and it's only a theory...
Current Book Discussion:
No Merle, I didn't ask you what knowing was.
I asked whether there is any wisdom in the born knowing? You suddenly jumped to
conclusion that I said everything I know had been taught by someone else.
Siska
-Original Message-
From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com
Sender:
Merle,
Am I or am I not?
Are you or are you not?
Siska
-Original Message-
From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 15:01:10
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.comZen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re:
Dear merle,
Even if we're there we may still want to talk about it.
You visit London, and chat with someone on a bridge there about the beautiful
and historic sights. They say to you: Now, now, you're here already! What do
you want to TALK about it for?
The fact is, people want to talk
Merle,
Why such a broken record in the age of the CD-ROM? (is it still?).
You may be the fist human in 2500 years to do it yourself, I don't know.
Buddha wore out 5 teachers before he opened his eyes on Venus.
But *do-it-yourself* in the presence of a good teacher, and you'll be safer,
and
Merle,
Why? Tell us what the book is to you.
This is a Forum, not a gallery.
--J.
Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
hands up who's read this book?... merle
Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are
reading! Talk
Edgar,
Thank you for the write-up. It must have been a great time in your formative
young-adult years.
I don't see that you stayed for long with any one teacher, or even any one
thing. You do not emphasize any. You may have had a survey-course excursion
in those years of various offerings,
Merle,
O, give it up all, you ego-attached miserables.
You cannot do it. Impossible.
That's where practice comes in.
That baggage, and other baggage, can dissolve. When it dissolves suddenly, you
come to see in subsequent days and weeks how you can live without all those
habits and
Chris, br/br/Which is also similar to Carl Sagan's point about needing to
go all the way back to the Big Bang to make the ingredients to make an apple
pie.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
Bill!,br/br/I think I'm starting to understand where our paths cross in all
this (I hope!). Traditional Buddhism uses the sutras and teachings (most
notably The Four Noble Truths and the Eight-Fold Path) to Liberation. Zen views
these methods as potential hindrances to Awakening (being the
Dear Mike,
I'll humbly assume you mean yours is like Master Guo Jun's.
The Light is not missing! ;-)
;-)
Take good care of your realization ...as we say in the Zen tradition.
(though I spell realization funny, here; goes with the [USA] territory)
rgds,
--Joe
From: uerusuboyo@...
Mike,
I'd still say that each approach is complete in itself: it took hundreds of
years and many generations to become so; and become so finely tuned. And I'd
still say that I see no reason to mix them.
That is, *in any one teaching occasion*. Like a retreat.
I doubt that Subhana in her
Chris, et al...
Absolutley! Why? is a useless question because even if there was an answer
(which I think there is not) we wouldn't be able to comprehend it anyway. We'd
just have to call it God..Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote:
Or as I like to
joe..you just don't get it...one can be one's own teacher...!...you might
need to follow..however there some who walk amongst us who can teach
ourselves... practise is doing ...remember..merle
Merle,
O, give it up all, you ego-attached miserables.
You cannot do it. Impossible.
well you figure it out siska... we might be born knowing but it's sure drummed
out of us...by the likes of those who want you to follow follow.. in their
paths...merle
No Merle, I didn't ask you what knowing was.
I asked whether there is any wisdom in the born knowing? You suddenly
Merle, Merle, Merle,
How do you come up with such gems as ...your never gunna be that buddha of
your dreams...?
Don't you know all you have to do is click your heels 3 times while repeating
There's no place like home...and you're there!
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester
siska not what?..merle
Merle,
Am I or am I not?
Are you or are you not?
Siska
From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 15:01:10 -0700 (PDT)
To:
Merle,
Yes, that is kind of what I was saying...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
 group...much of being human is about feelings..most of the time folk act on
their feelings... thinking rationally is in the too hard basket for many..if
we did
chatting is fine except most of the time it gets preachy..and starts to get
hostile..merle
Dear merle,
Even if we're there we may still want to talk about it.
You visit London, and chat with someone on a bridge there about the beautiful
and historic sights. They say to you: Now, now,
Merle!
You've surprised me! You've actually said something I totally agree with!
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
 tis not chattering that will get you there ...be attentive and alert daily
walking and talking in the WAY...merle
Bill,
joe..then why did you not mention realisation before since you are such an
expert... why do i have to get to tell you the bleeding obvious?...merle
Merle,
Realization is key to appreciating what the Zen masters and mistresses have
been talking about and recommending for 1500 years.
More
so your theory about finding a teacher jow...as any great teacher would
say...look within yourself... and seek and yea shall find..no one..and i repeat
no one can teach you to realise..you have to climb the mountain yourself..if i
choose to be my own teacher why are you forever bagging me
what do you mean joe gallery?..i can't discuss the book if you have not read
it..for christ sake...
read the book and awaken...to the clear light of day..
merle
Merle,
Why? Tell us what the book is to you.
This is a Forum, not a gallery.
--J.
Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
bill. !..woh! clicking heels sound like a nazi storm
trouper..north korean style..merle
Merle, Merle, Merle,
How do you come up with such gems as ...your never gunna be that buddha of
your dreams...?
Don't you know all you have to do is click your heels 3 times while
jesus..bill!..we are nearly there..
woh how much further..nearly we have reached the mountain top..
a couple of steps to go and then the realisation will dawn that you ain't been
on any mountain top at all...
merle
Merle,
Yes, that is kind of what I was saying...Bill!
--- In
Merle,br/br/One can be one's own teacher, but it's not usually very
successful, is it? Besides what you are teaching yourself is not Zen - at least
not the Zen as taught in the temples of Japan and China. Why not just call it
another name? br/br/Mikebr/br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
yes bill!...harmony finally!..it's not me it's you who think i'm a suffering
soul and joe believes i'm lost without this super dooper teacher of
teachers..which is actually me me me me..teaching me...merle
Merle!
You've surprised me! You've actually said something I totally agree with!
mike..jesus ..are you a crystal ball gazer?
... how the hell would you know if it's zen or not?..
why can't it be successful?...jesus...must zen be chinese japanese
orientation?...holy hell..
i thought well obviously mistaken as i am it was a human non racial thing this
zen..
here's one
Mike,
This does make perfect sense, which as you know from my perspective does not
always warrant my seal of approval, but in this case I do agree.
The Zen Buddhist teaching I received did not emphasize (and sometimes even
discouraged) the reading of the sutras. My training emphasized
bill...
butting in i am..yes yes yes..
no one can climb the mountain but your good self...and remember after you reach
the top..there never was a mountain to climb...
now that's were your illusion song can come in...
however be also aware as soon as you begin to sing that..you'll find
Merle,
For the most part I agree again with what you've written immediately below.
I'd also like to 'butt in' to your dialog with Joe to give you my perspective
using this mountain theme. I believe what Joe's been saying about a teacher
could be analogous to someone who's already been up the
Merle,
Negative. Ego will not let itself be dethroned by ITSELF.
Ego cannot step aside while it is before itself TEACHING.
THAT is Impossible.
I'm sure you see it, now that you admit it. ;-)
And that's why a teacher is necessary, if one is at all interested in this
business as a
Merle,
Keep a low profile, then, if you cannot add to the slings and missles... of
DISCUSSION.
I'm afraid you duck too soon, though, and claim that conditions are too rich
for your blood... when it's only discussion!
Sorry, if you feel left out. Don't be an umpire: be a Participant. Or not!
Merle,
I don't quite understand your question, and I think it became mal-formed.
Better that you re-phrase if you like.
--Joe
Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
joe..then why did you not mention realisation before since you are such an
expert... why do i have to get to tell you the
Merle,
What else can I tell you. If your cup is full already, no more can go in.
You've asked your question 27 times: I've answered it 27 times.
The Zen school teaches methods for awakening and for keeping awake. It's done
in order that wisdom and compassion can arise freely. That is all.
Merle,
Tell us why you care about it. Even an inkling. Is it fiction? Non-fiction?
If you get us to care, too, we may look further.
Without knowing why *Merle* cares, ***I*** don't care!
That's a compliment, dearie, so please don't be mad at me. Not on Easter.
--Joe
Merle Lester
Merle,br/br/If you have never practiced Zen with a teacher and have no
grasp of the history of Zen (from Indian Mahayana Buddhism to Chinese C'han to
Japanese Zen), then how do you know you are manifesting Buddha Nature as taught
by these traditions? Maybe you're mistaking your 'Zen' for a
Merle,
Mountain?
I've been deep in the basement. I think Bill!'s been there too with open eyes.
I tried to tell him it was a wine-cellar, and that he unabashedly shows that
he wants to keep all the stored vintages to himself, by his not honoring the
set of stairs that brought him down
br/I also sent him a set of instructions on how to make the stairs, but I
don't think he trusts the 'Made in India' product'br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent
from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
Merle,
Super-Dooper-Pooper-Scooper is the name of a pet-waste remover tool for beaches
and sporting fields, advertised in a sporting goods catalog that was popular in
my youth: Herter's! Maybe mid-1960s was when I poured over those slick, fat
catalogs, especially of fishing and archery
I didn't get a yam leaf diploma but I do have proof of enlightenment:
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote:
Merle,br/br/If you have never practiced Zen with a teacher and
have no grasp of the history of Zen (from Indian Mahayana Buddhism to
Chinese C'han to Japanese
Egad... is that the sticker that the Made in China sticker is pasted over?
--Joe
uerusuboyo@... wrote:
I also sent him a set of instructions on how to make the stairs, but I don't
think he trusts the 'Made in India' product'br/br/Mike
Current Book
Bill!,
Is that indeed thy own noggin?
Tall photographer friend took pic?
--Joe
Bill! BillSmart@... wrote:
I didn't get a yam leaf diploma but I do have proof of enlightenment:
Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are
Mike,
It's a gorgeous and awfully tender story, and one I must appropriate
immediately. Thank you, and kudos, bringing it in! And thanks, Merle, for
bashing it.
--Joe
uerusuboyo@... wrote:
Merle,br/br/If you have never practiced Zen with a teacher and have no
grasp of the history of
Joe,
Hey! My noggin, his noggin, your noggin...what's the difference?
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote:
Bill!,
Is that indeed thy own noggin?
Tall photographer friend took pic?
--Joe
Bill! BillSmart@ wrote:
I didn't get a yam leaf
Bill!,
Hair.
--Joe
Bill! BillSmart@... wrote:
Hey! My noggin, his noggin, your noggin...what's the difference?
Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
* To visit
Oh yeah...hair. But everything's impermanent, right?
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote:
Bill!,
Hair.
--Joe
Bill! BillSmart@ wrote:
Hey! My noggin, his noggin, your noggin...what's the difference?
Current
Bill!,
Bill! writes, so rightly:
everything's impermanent, right?
Impermanent; and then permanently impermanent, after a while. ;-)
...when you no longer need, or can even USE, a permanent.
Do you mean it's happened already?
Or, that head could as well be ...shaved.
(full head of hair here,
Joe,
The Platform Sutra is very long! Or to me, it is...
Can you point which passage you were referring to for me to look up?
Siska
-Original Message-
From: Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 01:09:41
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
bill! yes indeedy..you got it...merle
Merle,
For the most part I agree again with what you've written immediately below.
I'd also like to 'butt in' to your dialog with Joe to give you my perspective
using this mountain theme. I believe what Joe's been saying about a teacher
could
Merle,
If everything is zen, as you said, nothing can be drummed out of us because
there is no out and us.
Whose path are we following?
Siska
-Original Message-
From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 19:38:58
To:
Hi Merle,
Been a long thread that you may have forgotten...
Not try out heart
Siska
-Original Message-
From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 19:39:57
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.comZen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Reply-To:
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