RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles
At 21:09 12/13/2002 +, Sir Chester wrote: Elmer L. Fairbank wrote: Chet, my friend, that's And little lambs eat ivy, a kid'll eat ivy too, wouldn't you? Till the very helpful Evidently you can remember Gallegher Sheen easier than I. (No, not Sledge-O-Matic Gallegher and Martin--Chuckles Sheen!) Naw, just Spike Let me kiss your hand madame, 'cause I can't stand your breath Jones Till the ancient // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq
Jon Spencer wrote: So let me get this straight. First you postulate that the Americans took the materials first to hide the Pakistani connection. Then you use that supposition to say That's what I've been saying all along: Pakistan is far more dangerous to you than Iraq. Did I get this correctly? No. Reread my post. I said the publicly stated, the proximate reason, was so that recipes for CBW didn't make it into the public realm (which is credible). The ultimate reason was that, because of the age of most of the material, there was a danger that the ultimate source of the technology would become public: the USA to Pakistan when Pakistan was its client in South Asia during the Cold War. I'm not suggesting you bomb Pakistan. I'm suggesting you keep your weapons of mass destruction at home. If so, if your first supposition is incorrect Ah, what the heck. Let's just bomb Pakistan and get it over with. THEN we can bomb Iraq. No, wait! North Korea first, then - um - Iran! Then Canada. And THEN Iraq! I got it now! Jon Marc A. Schindler wrote: By now I'm sure all of you have heard of the material the Iraqi government turned over to the Security Council. The U.S. took it before other Security Council members could look at it, with the excuse that they wanted to make sure certain parts having to do with recipes for weapons of mass destruction didn't get made public. But this doesn't make sense -- all of the countries serving on the Security Council know how to make CBW. Rumour has it that the real reason the U.S. is going to censor the Iraqi material is because it shows that most of its technology came from Pakistan and was ultimately paid for by the U.S. taxpayer. Sound familiar? That's what I've been saying all along: Pakistan is far more dangerous to you than Iraq. Another reason, too, but one that's pretty well out in the public now anyway (there was an article in the November 02 Harpers about this) is how the US has deliberately obstructed the petroleum for humanitarian program in order to destroy the civilian infrastructure of Iraq. The idea seems to be that if the US makes things in Iraq really, really miserable, that the Iraqis will rise up against Saddam. Mind you, the U.S. hinted to the Shi'ites in the south during Gulf War I that if they rose up, they'd get help from the U.S. but by then Iraq wasn't a US concern anymore, and the Shi'ite rebellion was brutally put down by Saddam, so one has to wonder how stupid the US thinks Iraqis are. And I have to wonder if, in 5 or 10 years time, some major terrorist action against the U.S. comes from Iraqis, if you'll remember all this, or if you'll, once again, just ask huh? wha' happened? By then you'll be blaming Pakistanis. You heard it here first. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles
Since Scott's motorcycle ownership has been given such a thorough review here, what does the list have to say about a stake president owning and using a motorcycle. Speaking for the list as a whole (and I know that everyone is happy to let me speak for them, or if not, they should just keep quiet about it) I have to wonder about someone who rides a motorbike but is not a keen fan of The Lord of the Rings. Which is more likely to hurt someone: watching the Lord of the Rings movies or riding a motorbike? Which is more likely to lead to tatoos, long greasy beards and drinking of some kind of near beer substitute? Which is louder? And if your daughter showed up at home one day riding behind some guy on a motorbike, wouldn't you find yourself wishing she was watching The Two Towers instead? So there you have it. The questions lead to obvious answers. The list has spoken. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq
No, Larry -- the U.S. insisted on looking it over first before giving it to other permanent members of the Security Council, which is only 5 nations (technically speaking, not the UN -- that implies the General Assembly). This was public news, I'm not making it up. Here's a post to an official US state department briefing on the issue: http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol/terror/02121208.htm [incidentally, for those who still think the rest of the world operates the way the US does, note that if this were a Canadian government document, the director of communications would not be interviewed by journalists as in this briefing record and QA session -- it would be the minister who would be interviewed]. Think, too, that it's in Iraq's best interests to cloud the issue, as it were, by showing this kind of complication. Incidentally, I've also said that the U.S. won't invade Iraq when push comes to shove -- that while the U.S. administration may in fact be quite sincere in their concern about Iraq, their first priority was the mid-term elections. Now that the Republicans did better than many dared hope, the need for a wag the dog scenario is fading, and the doves are getting the upper hand. Two complete naval battle groups have started sailing *away* from the Middle East: http://www.nationalpost.com/search/site/story.asp?id=2B634666-9A17-4525-9558-1FA9C23496BB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marc Schindler: By now I'm sure all of you have heard of the material the Iraqi government turned over to the Security Council. The U.S. took it before other Security Council members could look at it, with the excuse that they wanted to make sure certain parts having to do with recipes for weapons of mass destruction didn't get made public. But this doesn't make sense -- ___ Of course it doesn't make sense. It didn't happen that way. That wasn't the reason, that wasn't the excuse, and the U.N. kept a copy of the complete document while the U.S. made more copies for them. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] New guy
I am glad to be one of the newest member of this list. By its description it is what I have been looking for - a list of LDS faithful ready to discuss without rancor. I live in Ogden and have been a member all of my life and with a heritage in the church back to the 1830's. But the testimony I enjoy had to be earned just like the newest member and in my case it has been received many times over. I am married to the lovely Sylvia and we have five children and eight beautiful grandchildren. Currently on the Ogden University High Council and loving it. The kids you send to Weber State are the greatest in the world. I hope that I am right about the list - I look forward to receiving the first messages from you. George Cobabe, CLU, ChFC Ogden, Utah [EMAIL PROTECTED] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Stacy Smith favored us with: Can someone explain to me how there could be total freedom of religion with people observing the Mosaic law? How can there have been a command against blasphemy and a death sentence if conditions like Alma portrays were true? How could there have been a climate of religious freedom? We are always free to choose life or death. Many choose death. Among those would be drug addicts, fornicators, and murderers. They have chosen death because they have chosen a path that leads to death. As long as a person can choose between life and death he is free to choose. A government might make every possible wrong behavior a capital crime, executing thieves, embezzlers, and jay walkers. In such a situation everyone is still free to choose between right and wrong, life and death. Suppose for an example that I was taken hostage by a terrorist who put a gun to my head and told me to drive my car into a crowd of Jews. Does the gun at my head mean that I am not free to choose? Of course not. I can choose to disobey the terrorist and have my head blown off. In this situation that would be the right choice. See? I really am free. I think a distinction needs to be made between freedom in an absolute sense and political freedom or economic freedom. In an absolute sense any man born into this Second Estate truly is free. He won his freedom by choosing the right in the War in Heaven and keeping his First Estate. Or at least that is my understanding today. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described intellectuals --Uncle Bob === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The Two Towers (LOTR)
I'm not a Tolkien fan -- nothing negative. I did read The Hobbit years ago but just never got around to any of the trilogy. So maybe this is funny, and maybe it isn't, but there was a cartoon in the latest New Yorker. You don't really need to see it to get it, I wouldn't think. TOLKIEN CHARACTERS THAT NEVER MADE IT OUT OF THE AUTHOR'S NOTEBOOKS. NOGO: the agoraphobic hobbit FINARFINGOL: the elf dentist SMIG: the miniature dragon Mark Gregson wrote: SPOILERS, don't read further, warning, show off about to be exposed as a fraud, humbug and charlatan: -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles
Mark, You may think motorcycle exhaust Is a sign of a soul that is lost But to contrast this view With Two Towers debut Is a sign that your have your threads crossed. Or to put it more logically, you have proposed a false dichotomy. Whether or not one enjoys LORT movies really has nothing to do with whether or not one wants his daughter to ride on the back of a motorcycle. But I'll have to assume, on your say so, that the list thinks that motorcycles are the embodiment of evil and I should sell mine and use the proceeds to purchase one of the inevitable classic collector's leather embossed box sets of LOTR movie DVD's for each member in my stake when they become available. Tom Cardston, Alberta www.matkin.com -Original Message- From: Mark Gregson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: December 16, 2002 9:33 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles Since Scott's motorcycle ownership has been given such a thorough review here, what does the list have to say about a stake president owning and using a motorcycle. Speaking for the list as a whole (and I know that everyone is happy to let me speak for them, or if not, they should just keep quiet about it) I have to wonder about someone who rides a motorbike but is not a keen fan of The Lord of the Rings. Which is more likely to hurt someone: watching the Lord of the Rings movies or riding a motorbike? Which is more likely to lead to tatoos, long greasy beards and drinking of some kind of near beer substitute? Which is louder? And if your daughter showed up at home one day riding behind some guy on a motorbike, wouldn't you find yourself wishing she was watching The Two Towers instead? So there you have it. The questions lead to obvious answers. The list has spoken. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Banning motorcycles
Just by the by, yesterday (Sunday) we drove back from Taber and stopped at Gasoline Alley for a quick pit stop (for non-Albertans, Gasoline Alley is a strip of fast food and gas stations along the service roads on the south side of the city of Red Deer, which is midway between Calgary and Edmonton.) There's now a Harley-Davidson store there where you can get your hawg serviced. They sell Harley insignia and similar products, too. Mark Gregson wrote: Since Scott's motorcycle ownership has been given such a thorough review here, what does the list have to say about a stake president owning and using a motorcycle. Speaking for the list as a whole (and I know that everyone is happy to let me speak for them, or if not, they should just keep quiet about it) I have to wonder about someone who rides a motorbike but is not a keen fan of The Lord of the Rings. Which is more likely to hurt someone: watching the Lord of the Rings movies or riding a motorbike? Which is more likely to lead to tatoos, long greasy beards and drinking of some kind of near beer substitute? Which is louder? And if your daughter showed up at home one day riding behind some guy on a motorbike, wouldn't you find yourself wishing she was watching The Two Towers instead? So there you have it. The questions lead to obvious answers. The list has spoken. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re:Re: [ZION] New guy
Don't take it personal, George, It's probably your last name. . .;-) Can this list handle another Cobabe?? :-o your sis in Mishawaka, IN val -- George Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Geez, I am brand new and the first message wants to know what to do about the new guy. :-) What did I do to arouse such a reaction. :-) George - Original Message - From: Stacy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] New guy I'm always glad to see new people, even people I might recognize. But I would be worried if I saw someone I didn't like or want to see. What should I do if I should ever see someone suspicious on here? Stacy. At 11:01 AM 12/16/2002 -0700, you wrote: I am glad to be one of the newest member of this list. By its description it is what I have been looking for - a list of LDS faithful ready to discuss without rancor. I live in Ogden and have been a member all of my life and with a heritage in the church back to the 1830's. But the testimony I enjoy had to be earned just like the newest member and in my case it has been received many times over. I am married to the lovely Sylvia and we have five children and eight beautiful grandchildren. Currently on the Ogden University High Council and loving it. The kids you send to Weber State are the greatest in the world. I hope that I am right about the list - I look forward to receiving the first messages from you. George Cobabe, CLU, ChFC Ogden, Utah [EMAIL PROTECTED] /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Re: New guy
-Val- Can this list handle another Cobabe?? :-o No, we can't have two Cobabes. At least one of them has to be the primary Babe. I suppose they'll have to decide between themselves which is better-looking. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles
At 11:56 12/16/2002 -0700, Uncle Presidente wrote: But I'll have to assume, on your say so, that the list thinks that motorcycles are the embodiment of evil and I should sell mine and use the proceeds to purchase one of the inevitable classic collector's leather embossed box sets of LOTR movie DVD's for each member in my stake when they become available. No, no keep the bike, just don't grease your hair and get a misshapen eagle on your forearm. Motorcycles are kewl. Have to admit though, they're not so great right about this time of year. Till, who doesn't live in your stake anyway (now that might be a different issue) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New guy
Not you. I'll take you any day over this other character. His last name is Wright. I'm not sure what to do if he decides to come on this list. See, what I'm worried about is a cyberstalker. Stacy. At 11:12 AM 12/16/2002 -0700, you wrote: Geez, I am brand new and the first message wants to know what to do about the new guy. :-) What did I do to arouse such a reaction. :-) George - Original Message - From: Stacy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] New guy I'm always glad to see new people, even people I might recognize. But I would be worried if I saw someone I didn't like or want to see. What should I do if I should ever see someone suspicious on here? Stacy. At 11:01 AM 12/16/2002 -0700, you wrote: I am glad to be one of the newest member of this list. By its description it is what I have been looking for - a list of LDS faithful ready to discuss without rancor. I live in Ogden and have been a member all of my life and with a heritage in the church back to the 1830's. But the testimony I enjoy had to be earned just like the newest member and in my case it has been received many times over. I am married to the lovely Sylvia and we have five children and eight beautiful grandchildren. Currently on the Ogden University High Council and loving it. The kids you send to Weber State are the greatest in the world. I hope that I am right about the list - I look forward to receiving the first messages from you. George Cobabe, CLU, ChFC Ogden, Utah [EMAIL PROTECTED] /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Afghanistan improved?
Contrary to what seems to be the general impression in the U.S. that Afghanistan has improved with the overthrow of the Taliban regime, there are signs that the ancien regime has returned -- the Northern Alliance was, of course, nothing but the original gang of thugs who ran the country, and according to the latest issue of Jane's Intelligence Review, Afghanistan is once again the world's largest opium producer. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles
Tom Matkin wrote: Mark, snip But I'll have to assume, on your say so, that the list thinks that motorcycles are the embodiment of evil and I should sell mine and use the proceeds to purchase one of the inevitable classic collector's leather embossed box sets of LOTR movie DVD's for each member in my stake when they become available. No, he means you should purchase the inevitable classic collector's leather embossed box sets of LOTR movie (all three parts) DVD for each member in MY stake. *jeep! --Chet Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] New guy
Stacy Smith wrote: Not you. I'll take you any day over this other character. His last name is Wright. So Wright is wrong. I'll have to remember that. *jeep! --Chet Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Stalkers (was: New guy)
I wrote (and I'll take the blame for it): And John (our Beloved List Tyrant) can help you out as far as this list goes. Gee, wasn't it just swell of me to volunteer John like that? Sorry 'bout that, big guy. I let my outrage overpower my typing fingers when I should've e-mailed you first. (Even though my e-mail is down again. MStar used to be s good!) *jeep! --Chet Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Just finished reading....
The key to reading so much of the GAs/scriptures and less television, is not how much you'll necessarily gain from their teachings, but the level of spirituality that will grow within you. Then, you will be able to have revealed to you personally many of the wondrous mysteries the Lord awaits to those who are ready to receive. People rarely gain revelation from watching tv shows, regardless of how exciting or neat they are. But when we concentrate in the spiritual realm, we attune ourselves to the spiritual things. For me, their words are great, but even greater is the spiritual insight I gain. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Stacy: I've even decided to give up most television watching in favor of reading and listening to these leaders long term. I truly believe they have long-term knowledge of future events and will in the end be able to look at all pertinent issues before another government gets established. It's obvious there are differences of opinion even in the church. I'll be interested to see what kind of government gets established and if any of us can have any input. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] algore
What do I think of John Kerrey? I think he is an honest man, which will be a refreshing change for a candidate from the Democratic party He is rather liberal on some issues, moderate on others. He works well with those on both sides of the aisle, and isn't an attack dog like Daschle or Gephardt. I'd say he is one of their better choices right now. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Alma 1:21
It was originally designed for a theocracy, run under Moses and the priests. In such a theocracy, there is no other religion. Remember, Israel was commanded to destroy all the other peoples and religions in Palestine. The Nephites adapted it to their multi-peopled government, meaning backing off on some requirements to ensure religious freedom. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe It had just occurred to me that it seemed that the Mosaic law, if properly followed, never allowed for true freedom. Am I really right on that one? If that is the case, wouldn't one say that that law was a law of force? Stacy. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] New guy
But you don't know for sure? Interesting. Stacy. At 08:34 PM 12/16/2002 +, you wrote: Hi George! Nice to see your sig here, welcome to the Zion list. I have found it to be a great refuge from the sanity of the world. ;-) Near as I can determine, George and I seem to be cousins--which probably accounts for the similarity in our last names. --- Jim Cobabe // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
SLC Mayor Rocky Anderson just announced a new proposed plan to settle the Main Street Plaza legal controversy. It appears that Mayor Rocky is ready to concede that the Church should have full control of Plaza access, and in exchange for offering this compromise, he suggests that the Church should donate some property holdings on the west side of SLC for construction and development of community improvement facilities. Bishop Burton responded to the proposal favorably and suggested that the matter be deliberated further at the city council meeting on Tuesday. My cynical bent detects that Mayor Rocky felt the tide of public opinion turning against him in his legalistic maneuvering, and felt that it was time to do some lawyerly wheeling and dealing. It would be a relief if this settles the issue. I think the only people gaining anything from the argument were the lawyers. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles
On Fri, 13 Dec 2002 22:28:22 -0700, Tom Matkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Since Scott's motorcycle ownership has been given such a thorough review here, what does the list have to say about a stake president owning and using a motorcycle. Tom, Considering the intense discussion of my motorcycle, my stairs, and my butt, I may not be considered the best source to listen to, but I fail to see the problem. Would you be just as much influence with these same teenagers if you bought a truck or a sports car? The Church is made for man, not man for the Church. You don't really need to alter everything about your life for fear of giving someone a wrong impression. Yes, it is very appropriate to consider the impact of your actions in many circumstances. What would someone thing if they saw you chugging away on a bottle of IBC root beer if they didn't know and weren't close enough to read the label. Probably that you were drinking a beer. Does that mean, however, thay you shouldn't ever drink anything in a brown bottle? No! You might want to be a bit more circumspect in public settings, or alternately you might want to make a big deal about it so that anyone likely to see you will KNOW that it is root beer. With your motorcycle, however, someone seeing you riding will NOT assume that you are breaking some commandment. You could, however, if still concerned take a similar approach to the alternate above. You can be very public and up-front about your motorcycle and why you feel it is a good thing. This also allows you to provide saftey info to admiring teens. Personally, I don't think you should worry about it. If you do anyway, then either try the above aproach or quite riding to releive your own worry (but not because of what other's think!) But most importantly of all, considering the demonstrated danger, should I also avoid the use of stairs? Well, if you are considering my example, then yes you should avoid stairs at three am in the middle of a tornado warning in the rain just after having been given a motorcycle. Otherwise, I expect that they are fairly safe. Scott -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ -- http://fastmail.fm - Sent 0.02 seconds ago // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles
Or to put it more logically, you have proposed a false dichotomy. Whether or not one enjoys LORT movies really has nothing to do with whether or not one wants his daughter to ride on the back of a motorcycle. Well, I got on the back of a motorbike once and it fell over. So I know that they must be dangerous. But I'll have to assume, on your say so, that the list thinks that motorcycles are the embodiment of evil and I should sell mine and use the proceeds to purchase one of the inevitable classic collector's leather embossed box sets of LOTR movie DVD's for each member in my stake when they become available. The list speaks: Wow, are you ever an enlightened stake president! I wasn't trying to say that motorbikes are evil but if it leads you to donate the LoTR DVD's to your members then something really good would have come of it all. Too bad my stake president doesn't ride a motorbike. Guess I'll just have to buy my own copies of the DVD's. In the spirit of the list, if anyone is going to be in Edmonton this Friday you can come watch The Two Towers at Silver City in the late afternoon with me. On the other hand, if you're going to be in Cardston before the snow flies (and it might never, the way this winter is going), take your motorbike along and have a ride with Tom. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Re: New guy
I say off with BOTH their heads! (that's an in joke they will both get). Rick Mathis wrote: At 07:14 PM 12/16/2002 +, Stephen wrote: No, we can't have two Cobabes. At least one of them has to be the primary Babe. I suppose they'll have to decide between themselves which is better-looking. But, Stephen, CObabe implies that there are at least two of them. I think the list is finally getting it right. Rick Mathis -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] New guy
It's you last name. :-) Noj George Cobabe wrote: Geez, I am brand new and the first message wants to know what to do about the new guy. :-) What did I do to arouse such a reaction. :-) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] LOTR Two Towers
Not me, but someone I knew in Kansas was named Eowyn. Her parents were LOTR fanatics. She had this wonderful long, wavy red hair that I just envied! Heidi the fair [Original Message] From: Johnna Cornett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 12/14/2002 12:40:18 AM Subject: [ZION] LOTR Two Towers Well, I'm excited for movie two. I want to see it opening night, not sure how I'll work that in to my life with a baby. My husband has seen Fellowship for the first time on DVD over Thanksgiving weekend, so now he wants to see Two Towers with me, hurrah. A friend brought the DVD by at Thanksgiving, so I got to see much of that backstory, making-of footage. Made me more excited to see the next installment. Made me wonder why I'm not doing cool stuff in my life, like making scale models of orthanc, or designing elven swords, or more particularly, designing and making the costumes. My daughter was Fleur de la Coeur for Halloween, and making her costume was too fun. She's a natural platinum blonde at this age, and her good friend already claimed the Hermione role. My prediction for this Two Towers movie is that it will be violent. As I was rereading Two Towers this week, I was noticing a preponderance of battle scenes. Also, I 'm looking forward to Eowyn's character being introduced to the movie--a fabulous character that could be the star of a lesser work. Reading two of the books a measure of fan status? I'm running into geek rating. I've read the entire LOTR trilogy four times in the last thirteen months. Too me, the dividing line between the fans and the fanatics is learning elvish. Though now more people talk about LOTR and I find I know much more about it that other readers, I believe I should give in to my interest in the languages of middle earth. apparently I'm a tolkien geek anyway. My eight-year-old wants to have a LOTR-themed birthday party next year. That's my girl! Johnna okay, I'll admit my friends called me Meriadoc all those years ago, and my best friend was Pippin. anyone else had a LOTR moniker? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Re: New guy
George has to be better looking, because Jim is definitely smarter. But to tell you the truth if you have seen one Cobabe you will recognize the rest. Just happy to be here and living off what I suspect is the good name of good o'cousin Jim. George - Original Message - From: Stephen Beecroft [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 12:14 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] Re: New guy -Val- Can this list handle another Cobabe?? :-o No, we can't have two Cobabes. At least one of them has to be the primary Babe. I suppose they'll have to decide between themselves which is better-looking. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New guy
NO - that is wrong - the wrong one is Wright! THAT is right! Who's on second? George - Original Message - From: Chet [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 12:52 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] New guy Stacy Smith wrote: Not you. I'll take you any day over this other character. His last name is Wright. So Wright is wrong. I'll have to remember that. *jeep! --Chet Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] heck ain't cussin
Marc - would it be true to say that we LDS believe in a universal definition of Godhood, and what is entailed in that high station, and see infinite manifestations of that universal concept? What is God is a universal constant that many, many are exalted to conform with? If this is true - then does the false notion of trinitarianism have a basis in truth, but then it is corrupted in its application? George - Original Message - From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]e Monday, December 16, 2002 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] heck ain't cussin I'll give it a try (but of course keep in mind that I'm not defending it, just trying to explain it from a creedal Christian point of view). There are a number of variations of trinitarianism, but I'll stick with the basic one set up at the Council of Chalcedon. The creedal statement basically reads that God is three in person and one in substance (not three persons in one, which is how many LDS -- indeed many Catholics and Protestants themselves, misunderstand it). When the Orthodox and Roman churches split in the 11th century or thereabouts, it was over a minor aspect of trinitarianism which I won't get into here, but the eastern churches felt that this was a mystery which transcends rational understanding, and culturally they had no problem with that. This approach dates back to the Cappadocians of the 4th or 5th century. The Roman approach was taken by Augustine and expanded. Augustine felt that there had to be a rational explanation, so he took earlier interpretations by a group of Church fathers known as the Apologists (because they defended early Christianity against Jewish and Greek pagan critics) and expanded on it. The Apologists were the first well-educated members (as a group) but they were trained in the Greek tradition of rationalism, also sometimes called neo-hellenism, or to get technical, Middle Platonism. Plato held that there existed something called a universal. If you have a red chair, then clearly it exists as a chair. But does redness exist independently? Some would say, no it doesn't -- it's merely a characteristic of something which exists, but Plato taught that it has an independent existence. The Middle Platonists took this idea of the universal and said that that's what God is: a universal, which manifests itself in three different persons. When you read the original Greek of John 1:1, known as the Johannine Prologue, part of the verse reads ...and the Word was God. The naive literalist interpretation of this by creedal Christians is that Jesus Christ was a manifestation of God. However, this interpretation has to be read back into the original text, because John wrote in ignorance of Platonism, and the Greek actually indicates what's known as a predicate relationship between the Word and God (the Father). Here's what I mean by a predicate relationship, as opposed to an identity relationship (the naive, everyday Protestant's and Catholic's view, and the caricature that most LDS have of the trinity). When I say The United States is the 50 states, territories, the land and inhabitants thereof, plus the government I am making an identity statement. I am, in effect, defining, in a one-to-one way, what a term *is* (hence identity relationship). But if I say The United States is George Washington, Old Glory, motherhood and apple pie I am saying something else entirely. This is clearly not an identity relationship. It is known as a predicate relationship, something that's hard to show in English, but fairly easy to show in NT Greek (by means of an anarthous proper noun, for those who care). What ...and the Word was God is, is a predicate relationship. It is saying that whatever God was, that, too, was the Word. Trinitarians take this and say that that whatever is a universal which has independent existence. They believe that even though this is not found in John's writing, which predate this philosophical view, that trinitarianism is a later but entirely legitimate clarification of how to resolve the dilemma of monotheism but three Gods. We LDS are actually closer to this view than many might think. The difference is that we reject Middle Platonism, and would say that the universal is an abstract concept only. It's as if there were an office with a brass nameplate on it reading God, which has three persons in it. Does that help, or just muddy the waters more? Chet wrote: Stacy Smith wrote: I think that as a former Protestant I understood much about trinitarian theology and understood what it meant. I had very few vague ideas about the subject. Could you explain it to me, then? In all my years in Southern Baptist, and in all my wife's years in various Protestant churches, neither of us thought it made sense. I thought it sounded like an accident with Scotty's transporter. (Aye, Cap'n -- we've accidently merged two life forms again.) *jeep! --Chet Start by doing what's
Re: [ZION]
Glad to hear it! Heidi the fair Heidi Page [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Original Message] From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 12/14/2002 10:51:46 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] tumor benign Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Re: New guy
I can tell you all that Marc forgets nothing. Cobabe is German for to slay by removing the head or executioner. George - Original Message - From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 2:52 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Re: New guy I say off with BOTH their heads! (that's an in joke they will both get). Rick Mathis wrote: At 07:14 PM 12/16/2002 +, Stephen wrote: No, we can't have two Cobabes. At least one of them has to be the primary Babe. I suppose they'll have to decide between themselves which is better-looking. But, Stephen, CObabe implies that there are at least two of them. I think the list is finally getting it right. Rick Mathis -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on - Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] heck ain't cussin
The problem is there's a trap for the innocent here. I know what you mean, and would agree with it. The problem is that Platonists would ascribe an *independent* existence to a characteristic. Kind of like turning an adjective into a noun. So God became an abstract and separate existence an und für sich (in and of itself, existentially speaking), which laid the ground for later apostate notions such as the God without body, parts or passions. George Cobabe wrote: Marc - would it be true to say that we LDS believe in a universal definition of Godhood, and what is entailed in that high station, and see infinite manifestations of that universal concept? What is God is a universal constant that many, many are exalted to conform with? If this is true - then does the false notion of trinitarianism have a basis in truth, but then it is corrupted in its application? There is another notion found amongst some of the earliest, Greek-speaking Church Fathers (Augustine readily admitted his ignorance of NT Greek, and the latinization influence he had on early Church doctrine was key in the apostasy, imo), called theosis, a version of which is still found in the Orthodox Church today. The Roman Church has lost even the modern eastern notion, which is usually called apotheosis (I think -- I'm going to have to look that up if anyone calls me on it). But first theosis -- that simply means becoming God. It's the LDS concept of exaltation and people like Eusebius used it. However, so did Arius, who was on the losing side of a debate about the nature of the trinity at Nicaea in the early 4th century, so the baby got thrown out with the bathwater. But the eastern church kept a version of the Arian heresy which meant to get admitted into God's presence and sharing in his glory. So godhood exists, and one could say theosis (or in Mormonese, exaltation) is the process of attaining that status, but we wouldn't assign an an und für sich, or universal existence to it. That turns it into a thing which we would reject. This is a very fine distinction, and I'm not sure I'm explaining it very well. It's easy to get bogged down in philosophical niceties here. George -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Well, since I can't give you liberty . How do you want it? Jon Stacy Smith wrote: If one is not economically or politically free can they really decide what they should or should not do? Not really, in my opinion. This is where I may draw the line with some conservatives. Give me liberty or give me death:! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Re: New guy
Rick Mathis wrote: But, Stephen, CObabe implies that there are at least two of them. I think the list is finally getting it right. Not true! You would have a coed at a school that had only one female student. She could also be called a Cobabe. Jon // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
It ends up costing the Church again for that which they/we already paid for. I hope that the good citizens of Salt Lake see the hypocrisy in the Mayors action - but I do not hold out hope. George - Original Message - From: Jon Spencer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 3:29 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal Jim Cobabe (the REAL babe) wrote: My cynical bent detects that Mayor Rocky felt the tide of public opinion turning against him in his legalistic maneuvering, and felt that it was time to do some lawyerly wheeling and dealing. It would be a relief if this settles the issue. I think the only people gaining anything from the argument were the lawyers. No. I think that Satan was gaining something here as well. Noj (not a babe at all) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] heck ain't cussin
I find that to understand an apostate doctrine, at least in my limited manner, it is almost always possible to take the doctrine and see the truth from which it sprang (is sprang a word?). There are, I suspect, very few original doctrines in other religions, just variations and corruptions of the true doctrine. If only we could go back to the origins of each belief. Plato, et al, had to have some basis for their beliefs and I would suspect those beliefs could, if we had the right sources and tools, be traced back to original truth. The same would be true for any systems of beliefs. The trap, as you suggest, is that people interpret this phenomena as developing concepts of God and other claptrap like that. Adam had a complete understanding of the doctrine as did Abraham, Melchizedek, et al. In fact, it is the deterioration of the truth that we view as the changes in the way people interpret God and the doctrine as a whole. It is all going downhill except as we see restorations and the input from Prophets. It is a point not very many people see. George - Original Message - From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 3:32 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] heck ain't cussin The problem is there's a trap for the innocent here. I know what you mean, and would agree with it. The problem is that Platonists would ascribe an *independent* existence to a characteristic. Kind of like turning an adjective into a noun. So God became an abstract and separate existence an und für sich (in and of itself, existentially speaking), which laid the ground for later apostate notions such as the God without body, parts or passions. George Cobabe wrote: Marc - would it be true to say that we LDS believe in a universal definition of Godhood, and what is entailed in that high station, and see infinite manifestations of that universal concept? What is God is a universal constant that many, many are exalted to conform with? If this is true - then does the false notion of trinitarianism have a basis in truth, but then it is corrupted in its application? There is another notion found amongst some of the earliest, Greek-speaking Church Fathers (Augustine readily admitted his ignorance of NT Greek, and the latinization influence he had on early Church doctrine was key in the apostasy, imo), called theosis, a version of which is still found in the Orthodox Church today. The Roman Church has lost even the modern eastern notion, which is usually called apotheosis (I think -- I'm going to have to look that up if anyone calls me on it). But first theosis -- that simply means becoming God. It's the LDS concept of exaltation and people like Eusebius used it. However, so did Arius, who was on the losing side of a debate about the nature of the trinity at Nicaea in the early 4th century, so the baby got thrown out with the bathwater. But the eastern church kept a version of the Arian heresy which meant to get admitted into God's presence and sharing in his glory. So godhood exists, and one could say theosis (or in Mormonese, exaltation) is the process of attaining that status, but we wouldn't assign an an und für sich, or universal existence to it. That turns it into a thing which we would reject. This is a very fine distinction, and I'm not sure I'm explaining it very well. It's easy to get bogged down in philosophical niceties here. George -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on - Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Stacy Smith wrote: --- If one is not economically or politically free can they really decide what they should or should not do? Not really, in my opinion. This is where I may draw the line with some conservatives. Give me liberty or give me death:! --- Interestingly, we are able to enjoy economic and political freedom in part to the extent that laws and governments protect human rights and the exercise thereof. Religious freedom cannot seem to sustain itself in an anarchistic environment. Our propensity for tyranny and oppression always seems to overcome natural rights when unprotected by the rule of law. Church doctrine and policy support the ideal of laws which promote freedom and righteousness. I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves. (Joseph Smith quoted by John Taylor, _JD_ 10:57-58.) While this idea suggests the informed exercise of agency leading to righteous living, this obviously does not happen in a vacuum. Being taught correct principles implies a common understanding of the laws which govern. Without these laws, there is no freedom. The individual has as full a measure of capability to violate the laws of health, the requirements of nature, and the commandments of God in matters both temporal and spiritual, as he has to obey all such; in the one case he brings upon himself the penalties that belong to the broken law; as in the other he inherits the specific blessings and the added freedom that attend a law-abiding life. Obedience to law is the habit of the free man; the transgressor fears the law, for he brings upon himself deprivation and restraint, not because of the law, which would have protected him in his freedom, but because of his antagonism to law. (Talmage, _Articles of Faith_ p46.) At a clear and extreme level, violations of inalienable rights by a government might excuse citizens from the performance of some obligations of citizenship. But the history of Latter-day Saints' relations to their governments shows that any such exceptions would have to be far more extreme than anything we have experienced in this country. Even when victimized by what they must surely have seen as very severe government oppressions and abridgments of freedom, the Mormon people and their leaders have remained loyal to their government and its laws. Think of the persecutions in Missouri, the expulsion from Nauvoo, and the repressions suffered in the Utah Territory. As long as a government provides aggrieved persons an opportunity to work to enlarge their freedoms and relieve their oppressions by legal and peaceful means, a Latter-day Saint citizen's duty is to forego revolution and disobedience of law. Our doctrine commits us to work from within. Even an oppressive government is preferable to a state of lawlessness and anarchy in which the only ruling principle is force and every individual has a thousand oppressors. (See DC 134:6.) Church members who seek to use LDS doctrine as a basis for concluding that government infringements on inalienable rights have excused them from obeying the law seem to have forgotten the principle of following the prophets. Until the prophets invoke this principle, faithful members will also refrain from doing so. We remain committed to uphold our governments and to obey their laws. (Dallin H. Oaks, Some Responsibilities of Citizenship, BYU Marriott Center, July 3, 1994) Elder Oaks' speech is one of the finest discussions available on this topic of doctrinal support for honoring the law. It is worth studying. Here's a link to the full text-- http://www.ldsinfobase.net/liberty/DHO_citizenship.htm; --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
Marc A. Schindler favored us with: There's one particular troublemaker named Kurt Van Gorden who will likely try to get himself arrested, and have the ACLU back his legal defence (he tends to work this way -- he sues everyone, into bankruptcy, if he can, but has no assets to speak of himself). That will be an interesting case. Where are you Orrin Porter Rockwell, now that we need you? --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
George Cobabe favored us with: It ends up costing the Church again for that which they/we already paid for. I hope that the good citizens of Salt Lake see the hypocrisy in the Mayors action - but I do not hold out hope. Thanks to public education and television most people will believe anything. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] algore
Gary Smith favored us with: What do I think of John Kerrey? I think he is an honest man, which will be a refreshing change for a candidate from the Democratic party He is rather liberal on some issues, moderate on others. He works well with those on both sides of the aisle, and isn't an attack dog like Daschle or Gephardt. How did Kerry vote on the Clinton acquittal? If he voted to leave Clinton in office, he is not honest. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Just finished reading....
Gary Smith favored us with: People rarely gain revelation from watching tv shows, regardless of how exciting or neat they are. But when we concentrate in the spiritual realm, we attune ourselves to the spiritual things. For me, their words are great, but even greater is the spiritual insight I gain. Here in Alaska we can tune our dish to receive BYU TV. In that case, we get a constant flood of light and truth into our home, past conference talks, forum assemblies, BYU speeches of the year, Women's conference, BYU education week, etc. It isn't the medium that corrupts but the message. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest --Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248 *** All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] heck ain't cussin
Jon Spencer wrote: I watched a very learned Lutheran schoolar explain this entire subject (the Trinity) on TV once, and I felt inclined to write to the school that gave him his doctor of divinity degree and advise them to retract it. It was pure, illogical gibberish, with many hidden (and unproven) assumptions. As someone who grew up as a Presby and listenned to all that I could to try to understand the mainstream Christian faith, I can attest to the inability of anyone I encountered to adequately explain this mythology or provide any consistent scriptural basis for it. I have searched for a book which intelligently explains it to no avail. I have found, however, a book which traces the source of this concept to of all people our old a2+b2=c2 friend, Pythagoras. The book is called How Greek Philosophy Corrupted the Christian Concept of God by Richard R. Hopkins, and published by Horizon. I would add a hearty amen to your recommendation of this book. I've just dabbled in it here and there when I needed a reference for something, so far, but I do intend to read it from cover to cover. I believe that it was out of print for a time (Horizon is a rather small LDS publisher, and I think they just ran out of stock) but I believe that it is available again. It's not on our store's website, but I'll check into it if anyone is interested. People in my ward have borrowed the book from me and want their own copy. Jon -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?
Marc A. Schindler favored us with: Contrary to what seems to be the general impression in the U.S. that Afghanistan has improved with the overthrow of the Taliban regime, there are signs that the ancien regime has returned -- the Northern Alliance was, of course, nothing but the original gang of thugs who ran the country, and according to the latest issue of Jane's Intelligence Review, Afghanistan is once again the world's largest opium producer. There is a strong belief held on the radical right in this country that while George H. Bush was the head of the CIA, he set up the heroine distribution system by which narcotics from this part of the world were transported to the USA. Bo Gritz had a lot to say on the matter. Of course Bo Gritz lost most of his credibility when he left the Church and proved himself to be a mere opportunist. Anyway, if it is true the Bush, Sr. helped create a market for Afghan opium, it would explain why that market and distribution system remains intact after a Bush, Jr. victory. I'm sure this is just a pack of lies told about our honorable leaders. At least I hope so. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday School and seminary classes every fourth year. This four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by Church members in their personal and family study. We need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get a man nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book. (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New guy
George Cobabe favored us with: I am glad to be one of the newest member of this list. By its description it is what I have been looking for - a list of LDS faithful ready to discuss without rancor. Well, there are moments of rancor, but like a faithful family we try to keep it to a minimum. I live in Ogden and have been a member all of my life and with a heritage in the church back to the 1830's. But the testimony I enjoy had to be earned just like the newest member and in my case it has been received many times over. I am married to the lovely Sylvia and we have five children and eight beautiful grandchildren. Currently on the Ogden University High Council and loving it. The kids you send to Weber State are the greatest in the world. So tell us how you are related to Jim. Any friend or family of Jim Cobabe is a friend of mine. I hope that I am right about the list - I look forward to receiving the first messages from you. We are glad to have you among us. I hope we live up to your lofty expectations. If not, consider it an exercise in Christlike forgiveness. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday School and seminary classes every fourth year. This four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by Church members in their personal and family study. We need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get a man nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book. (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New guy
Stacy Smith favored us with: I'm always glad to see new people, even people I might recognize. But I would be worried if I saw someone I didn't like or want to see. What should I do if I should ever see someone suspicious on here? Write private email to John W. Redelfs or Gary Smith, the two listowners. Share your worries with them in private. They are the only ones with the list password, and hence the only ones that can solve the problem. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest --Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248 *** All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Stalkers (was: New guy)
Chet favored us with: I wrote (and I'll take the blame for it): And John (our Beloved List Tyrant) can help you out as far as this list goes. Gee, wasn't it just swell of me to volunteer John like that? Sorry 'bout that, big guy. I let my outrage overpower my typing fingers when I should've e-mailed you first. (Even though my e-mail is down again. MStar used to be s good!) It just says ditto to something I already posted to the list. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Iran's Nukes
John W. Redelfs wrote: --- I have some anxiety that we may soon find out who has and does not have nukes. --- There were some misleading news reports on this, I think. In the headlines last Friday. Those rotten news guys, they're always trying to increase John's anxiety. :-) Some of the headlines seemed to be asserting that evidence was found indicating that Iran is developing nuclear weapons. More detailed reports indicated that the satellite surveillance photos from last September actually found evidence of the construction of unreported nuclear power facilities, some of which _might_ be used in the production of weapons material, which Iran currently does not have access to. Much of this has been subsequently clarified by the Russians, who are apparently providing the technological support for construction of the Iranian facilities. Several of the news reports I read asserted with some authority that Iran definitely does _not_ currently have nuclear weapons production capability. I was interested to learn that the Russians are now selling nuclear technological knowhow. What a refreshing change for the world to buy their nuclear plants from the Russians, instead of from the Canadians, or the PRC. Perhaps the Russian bid was cheaper. ;- --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] heck ain't cussin
George Cobabe favored us with: Marc - would it be true to say that we LDS believe in a universal definition of Godhood, and what is entailed in that high station, and see infinite manifestations of that universal concept? What is God is a universal constant that many, many are exalted to conform with? Would it be possible for you to rephrase this more simply? I am afraid it is above my reading level, and I don't understand. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] prayer of the day
They don't make 'em like that old curmudgeon Samuel Johnson anymore (Johnson is probably best known for his dictionary, one of the earliest English dictionaries). This prayer is meant not to be whispered, but to be proclaimed by one with good lungs and a well-buttoned waistcoat [pronounced wes'cut, of course...] December 13, 2002 Feast of Lucy, Martyr at Syracuse, 304 Commemoration of Samuel Johnson, Writer, Moralist, 1784 Almighty and most merciful Father, I again appear in Thy presence the wretched misspender of another year which Thy mercy has allowed me. O Lord let me not sink into total depravity, look down upon me, and rescue me at last from the captivity of sin. Impart to me good resolutions, and give me strength and perseverance to perform them. Take not from me Thy Holy Spirit, but grant that I may redeem the time lost, and that by temperance and diligence, by sincere repentance and faithful obedience I may finally attain everlasting happiness, for the sake of Jesus Christ our Lord. ... Samuel Johnson (1709-1784) Thanks to Kathryn Daniel, a Canadian LDS originally from Barbados now living in Bermuda, for this. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] New guy
Just so long as that other guy named Wright doesn't come along. Well, I'm sure you'll look out for him. He might be trouble. Stacy. At 09:16 PM 12/16/2002 -0600, you wrote: Hi George, I'm glad you came to the Zion list. I have enjoyed your postings at FAIR. I'm sure you will find the Zion list to be a place of refuge. Sometimes we argue a little but we learn so much. This is a list where members really care about each other. I've only been here a couple years and they haven't thrown me out yet. grin Again, welcome. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] LOTR
Hm. First Tom Matkin claims to dislike LOTR, and now Marc says he isn't a fan. Maybe there is something in the water up there in Canada??? Mark Gregson doesn't seem to be affected much by it, but it may just be a matter of time. If I notice Mark discussing the benefits of socialized medicine, I'll know he's been assimilated! K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc: I'm not a Tolkien fan -- nothing negative. I did read The Hobbit years ago but just never got around to any of the trilogy. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Doctrine
Well, I can see this very well. Stacy. At 04:21 PM 12/16/2002 -0700, you wrote: I find that to understand an apostate doctrine, at least in my limited manner, it is almost always possible to take the doctrine and see the truth from which it sprang (is sprang a word?). There are, I suspect, very few original doctrines in other religions, just variations and corruptions of the true doctrine. If only we could go back to the origins of each belief. Plato, et al, had to have some basis for their beliefs and I would suspect those beliefs could, if we had the right sources and tools, be traced back to original truth. The same would be true for any systems of beliefs. The trap, as you suggest, is that people interpret this phenomena as developing concepts of God and other claptrap like that. Adam had a complete understanding of the doctrine as did Abraham, Melchizedek, et al. In fact, it is the deterioration of the truth that we view as the changes in the way people interpret God and the doctrine as a whole. It is all going downhill except as we see restorations and the input from Prophets. It is a point not very many people see. George - Original Message - From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 3:32 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] heck ain't cussin The problem is there's a trap for the innocent here. I know what you mean, and would agree with it. The problem is that Platonists would ascribe an *independent* existence to a characteristic. Kind of like turning an adjective into a noun. So God became an abstract and separate existence an und für sich (in and of itself, existentially speaking), which laid the ground for later apostate notions such as the God without body, parts or passions. George Cobabe wrote: Marc - would it be true to say that we LDS believe in a universal definition of Godhood, and what is entailed in that high station, and see infinite manifestations of that universal concept? What is God is a universal constant that many, many are exalted to conform with? If this is true - then does the false notion of trinitarianism have a basis in truth, but then it is corrupted in its application? There is another notion found amongst some of the earliest, Greek-speaking Church Fathers (Augustine readily admitted his ignorance of NT Greek, and the latinization influence he had on early Church doctrine was key in the apostasy, imo), called theosis, a version of which is still found in the Orthodox Church today. The Roman Church has lost even the modern eastern notion, which is usually called apotheosis (I think -- I'm going to have to look that up if anyone calls me on it). But first theosis -- that simply means becoming God. It's the LDS concept of exaltation and people like Eusebius used it. However, so did Arius, who was on the losing side of a debate about the nature of the trinity at Nicaea in the early 4th century, so the baby got thrown out with the bathwater. But the eastern church kept a version of the Arian heresy which meant to get admitted into God's presence and sharing in his glory. So godhood exists, and one could say theosis (or in Mormonese, exaltation) is the process of attaining that status, but we wouldn't assign an an und für sich, or universal existence to it. That turns it into a thing which we would reject. This is a very fine distinction, and I'm not sure I'm explaining it very well. It's easy to get bogged down in philosophical niceties here. George -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on - Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email
Re: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
Can I call from out of state? Stacy. At 04:08 PM 12/16/2002 -0700, you wrote: It ends up costing the Church again for that which they/we already paid for. I hope that the good citizens of Salt Lake see the hypocrisy in the Mayors action - but I do not hold out hope. George - Original Message - From: Jon Spencer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 3:29 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal Jim Cobabe (the REAL babe) wrote: My cynical bent detects that Mayor Rocky felt the tide of public opinion turning against him in his legalistic maneuvering, and felt that it was time to do some lawyerly wheeling and dealing. It would be a relief if this settles the issue. I think the only people gaining anything from the argument were the lawyers. No. I think that Satan was gaining something here as well. Noj (not a babe at all) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
We are coming a long way for sure but aren't there yet. If we could have the same chances to seek equal employment that other people have without the discrimination, if we could have the same power to go anywhere we wanted to at any time--we're getting closer to that one--and basically function in society with the same rights and privileges everyone who is not handicapped has, we'd go a long way towards feeling we had the kind of liberty we desire. This would definitely mean more expense for society as a whole but it would let us participate to the same degree in society that everyone else does. We just want to be treated with the same level of respect everyone else gets and to have the playing field leveled as long as we must try harder than anyone else to do the things we do. Other than that, we don't mind having the same laws that others in this country have. Some of us want to see the death penalty adopted for every state; some don't. We have the same dreams and aspirations like everyone else. We don't believe disabilities should have to get in the way of that. Stacy. At 05:15 PM 12/16/2002 -0500, you wrote: Well, since I can't give you liberty . How do you want it? Jon Stacy Smith wrote: If one is not economically or politically free can they really decide what they should or should not do? Not really, in my opinion. This is where I may draw the line with some conservatives. Give me liberty or give me death:! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Iran's Nukes
Glad to know I'm allowed to be anxious. I thought Jesus might condemn me in this. Stacy. At 03:49 AM 12/17/2002 +, you wrote: John W. Redelfs wrote: --- I have some anxiety that we may soon find out who has and does not have nukes. --- // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
What's this other list and why not have the same screening questionnaire? Stacy. At 06:02 PM 12/16/2002 -0900, you wrote: Jim Cobabe favored us with: Church members who seek to use LDS doctrine as a basis for concluding that government infringements on inalienable rights have excused them from obeying the law seem to have forgotten the principle of following the prophets. Until the prophets invoke this principle, faithful members will also refrain from doing so. We remain committed to uphold our governments and to obey their laws. (Dallin H. Oaks, Some Responsibilities of Citizenship, BYU Marriott Center, July 3, 1994) Following this same train of thought, here are questions 7-9 in the screening questionnaire I use for my Moroni list: 7. I believe the Twelfth Article of Faith: We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Don't know D. Disagree F. Strongly disagree 8. But I also believe DC 134:5 which reads: We believe that all men are bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they reside, WHILE PROTECTED IN THEIR INHERENT AND INALIENABLE RIGHTS, by the laws of such governments; and that sedition and rebellion are unbecoming every citizen thus protected, and should be punished accordingly; and that all governments have a right to enact such laws as in their own judgments are best calculated to secure the public interest; at the same time, however, holding sacred the freedom of conscience. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Don't know D. Disagree F. Strongly disagree 9. However, when these two are in apparent contradiction, I believe that it is the Priesthood led by the President of the Church, rather than the individual that makes the final determination as to which principle is supreme at any given moment. A saint does not take the law into his own hands. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Don't know D. Disagree F. Strongly disagree John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described intellectuals --Uncle Bob === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New guy
No real worries about anyone on the list right now. Stacy. At 05:47 PM 12/16/2002 -0900, you wrote: Stacy Smith favored us with: I'm always glad to see new people, even people I might recognize. But I would be worried if I saw someone I didn't like or want to see. What should I do if I should ever see someone suspicious on here? Write private email to John W. Redelfs or Gary Smith, the two listowners. Share your worries with them in private. They are the only ones with the list password, and hence the only ones that can solve the problem. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest --Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248 *** All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New guy
Well, I'd like to know just how many such lists there are. Judging from other lists on other subjects, there must be hundreds out there. Stacy. At 05:45 PM 12/16/2002 -0900, you wrote: George Cobabe favored us with: I am glad to be one of the newest member of this list. By its description it is what I have been looking for - a list of LDS faithful ready to discuss without rancor. Well, there are moments of rancor, but like a faithful family we try to keep it to a minimum. I live in Ogden and have been a member all of my life and with a heritage in the church back to the 1830's. But the testimony I enjoy had to be earned just like the newest member and in my case it has been received many times over. I am married to the lovely Sylvia and we have five children and eight beautiful grandchildren. Currently on the Ogden University High Council and loving it. The kids you send to Weber State are the greatest in the world. So tell us how you are related to Jim. Any friend or family of Jim Cobabe is a friend of mine. I hope that I am right about the list - I look forward to receiving the first messages from you. We are glad to have you among us. I hope we live up to your lofty expectations. If not, consider it an exercise in Christlike forgiveness. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday School and seminary classes every fourth year. This four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by Church members in their personal and family study. We need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get a man nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book. (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] How Greek Philosophy Corrupted the Christian Concept of God
I'd love to see that one when you get it good and cleaned up. Stacy. At 06:45 PM 12/16/2002 -0700, you wrote: If you want to learn more about trinitarianism (albeit from an LDS pov, where I attack it), I've written 2 versions out of a planned series of 3. The first was printed in FAIR's early series of monthly newsletters, and was the short version. The medium version is on my website at http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/C/trinity_1.html I've promised FAIR a long version eventually, but it's taking time (well, it *is* the long version, after all, and I want to make sure I understand some of the twists and turns the doctrine has taken in its long and confusing history before I try to attack it) Jon Spencer wrote: I checked at our store today, and lo and behold, we do have the book How Greek Philosophy Corrupted the Christian Concept of God. I added it to our website, with the following description (actually, only the first two paragraphs would fit - but you get all three!). It is a very good book, well worth the reading. Jon How Greek Philosophy Corrupted the Christian Concept of God brings profound new insights to the Trinitarian doctrines of orthodox Christianity. With clear and precise documentation, the book shows how these doctrines migrated into early Christianity from Greek philosophy. The various aspects of Trinitarian belief are isolated, linked to their Greek sources, and carefully analyzed to show how they differ radically from biblical teaching. The writings of early Church Fathers, portrayed in their historical context, show that during the second century theological concepts taught in Platonism were adopted as Christians struggled to end Roman persecution. Emperor Marcus Aurelius, a famous Stoic philosopher, was putting Christians to death because their beliefs did not conform to the Hellenized religion of the day. The book shows that the early Church Fathers sought to save their people's lives by re-defining the Christian God in Greek terms. Their efforts brought metaphysics to Christianity and ushered in concepts like the Trinity. After presenting the historical setting in which these philosophical errors were embraced as Christian doctrine, the book compares orthodox Christian theology today, called classical theism, to biblical teachings. The book identifies how Greek philosophy has influenced each of the major attributes of God taught in classical theism. Modern theologians are challenged on numerous doctrinal points that found their way from Greek philosophy into ancient creeds, but are found wanting in the light of careful theological, historic and scientific analysis. This book constitutes a major challenge to those who accept the tenants of classical theism, but do not know the many aspects of their doctrine that are based on Greek philosophy. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
