Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
Summary: 1. Why not a zope2.org site? 2. Tentative, shaky suggestion on maintenance of website Hi, Sorry for this post from someone not contributing at all. My only contribution to zope ( apart from making a hundred or so people aware of it and a couple of dozens attempt to adopt it on a few projcts) has been regular visits to zope.org at least once a week from 1999, and almost daily since 2004. This discussion, coupled with the discussion on separating the zope3 repository, is extremely motivating and also very educating to technologically challenged people like me. 1. zope2.org Since both zope2 and zope3 are live projects in their own right, and at this point both have something to offer individually to the development community and more importantly to each other, and since (probably, hopefully) ZOPE as a brand is more important for both, why not have a zope2.org site in addition to zope.org and zope3.org? The main zope.org site could address a common vision and focus on commonalities and common concerns, while the individual sites could focus on issues specific to them. I have just now discovered that zope2.org as a domain name is available and have requested it to be booked. How do I transfer it to the zope community, if it gets booked at all? 2. Maintenance: Is this a way? As far as maintenance is concerned, I could suggest to a few developers -maybe not very experienced- ( from Mumbai, India) that they help part time. In that case, could they get guidance from the community seniors through email? I would also appreciate if someone can guide me on the hardware, software and connectivity infrastructure needed for this. Hopefully, over a period, capability will get built locally. I would also like to explore the possibility of persuading Science/ Engineering students to develop in/ for zope as part of their academic project work. Any suggestions? I take this opportunity to thank all those involved in Zope. Thanks Milind Khadilkar G2, Radha Bhuvan, Hanuman Cross Road No. 1, Vile Parle (E), Mumbai 400057. ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
Stephan, thank for answer, and sorry for delay. My approach to make some useful services and motivate people to use them. We need zope3.org with easy, pretty, web2.0 design and very useful services for community. I hope if we make some base parts of my plan then we cover most of community requests. Compare http://documentation.rubyonrails.com/ and Zope.org dev section, differences not so dramatic. Zope3 community allready have perfect Zope3 book (ok, with some old stuff), very good tutorials on Philipp's site (http://worldcookery.com/). If we re-represent this materials on new zope3.org site then we cover most of newbies requests. Stephan Richter wrote: On Tuesday 18 October 2005 21:12, Mikhail Kashkin wrote: I'm also want to offer me as fresh meat in this effort. My proposition for site plan, index pages *mark*:: Hi Mikhail, the outline is nice, but contains items that we do not have already; for example it has a huge documentation section with lots of items, but none of this type of documentation exists and you cannot expect it to magically appear. Having said this, I really wish someone would take ownership in developing our zope3.org site. Unfortunately I have not heard from Uwe anymore, but someone should contact him and see what's going on. With that much interest I would hope that a steady developer group around zope3.org would form. Is that possible? IS someone willed to take the lead? Regards, Stephan -- Mikhail Kashkin, Key Solutions (http://keysolutions.ru/) Zope/Plone Consulting/Hosting/WebDev Plone на русском http://plone.org.ru/ Plone Foundation Member (http://plone.org/foundation/members/) ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
Uwe Oestermeier wrote: I continued the work on the wikification and the Zope2.org importer. At least in principle we can take over most of the existing Zope3Dev wiki automatically (without comments at the moment). But without a review of what is outdated and still important this does not make sense. So this may be a starting point for someone who is willing to work on the content of the new site. With that much interest I would hope that a steady developer group around zope3.org would form. Is that possible? IS someone willed to take the lead? Due to my other duties I'm only willing to continue the things we started at the Sprint (I hope to be able to add ReST editing until the end of the next week), and may also coordinate other technical issues but I'm certainly not able to coordinate community and marketing issues. Hi Stephan, Hi Uwe, I continue to analyse of wiki. IMHO: We can devide wiki on 4 separate (not intersection) projects (subprojects): 1) about zope3 community 2) about project management of Zope3 3) about Zope3 development problems and solutions 4) about zope3.org site Plan of wiki sorting by projects 1,2,3 here: http://en.netlander.org/projects/zope3.org/wikiImport/ Plan of structuring wiki for zope3.org here: http://en.netlander.org/projects/zope3.org/reqSpec What you think about it? -- Regards, Netlander ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
Stephan Richter wrote: On Sunday 13 November 2005 13:37, netlander wrote: I can help to review existing Zope3Dev wiki. May be create list: wiki -- status. Statuses may be: -- outdated -- under development (still requires further agreement) -- recomended (tried and tested) RIght? Note that those type of tags already exist and are used. Yes. You are right. Uwe Oestermeier wrote: Such a list would be very useful. But I think the states recommended and outdated are sufficient (at least for the moment). If in doubt I would take over the contribution and let the recipients decide whether they make any use of the contribution or not. Yes. You are right. But for wiki classification we need to understand wiki readers (auditorium). For him outdated? There are next type of outdated: -- completed (finished) - may be need as documentation -- frozen, but actually - may be need as project problem (plan) -- obsolete -- need not (for zope museum only :-) ). For Zope3 developers not interesting completed and obsolete. For web developers (scripters) not interesting frozen and obsolete. IMHO: To separate wiki to next group: 1) actually, not outdated 2) actually, frozen 3) completed Inside the zope3.org to create 2 zones: -- for Zope3 developers (1st and 2nd groups of wiki) -- for other (3rd group of wiki) What do you think about mark (status) - completed, frozen, obsolete? If you send this list to me I will integrate it into the importer. I see 2 tasks: Task 1. Express (or very hot) - Import wiki to zope3.org Task 2. It is important - What is it zope3.org (as application)? Task 1. Today in section zope3-dev we have 627 wiki. First from Aug 3, 2003. Last from Nov 10, 2005, I need 1-2 days for analyzing and creating of list. Task 2. Approach to zope3.org creation. We need to collect all requirements to zope3.org application and create requirement specification. Where and how do it? -- Regards, Valeri Lazarev ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
Hi Stephan, Hi Uwe, Approach: - Step 1. Separate wiki by community process levels. - Step 2. Synchronization wiki (documentation) with Zope3 realeases. Step 1. Separate wiki by process levels. In compliance with enterprise lifecycle process model emphasize: -- community (enterprise) level -- project level -- technology level First sorting attempt. Current wiki tree: http://www.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/FrontPage/FrontPage/map Same wiki (nothing deleted), but sorting by lifecycle processes. (Note: underline logical parts, not underline real wiki headers) Top-levels: Community level === Reglaments (or environment management) --- Zope3DeveloperInfo Lifecycle process management WikiBadge Project level = Project planning and control VisionStatement RoadMap SprintSchedule Information management --- #zope3-dev IRC channel NewPagesRSS (not using from 2004) ZWiki Zope3Newsletter Technology level Stakeholders (requirements definition) --- UseCases Architectural design (Zope3 developers documentation) - ComponentArchitectureOverview Zope3Proposals Glossary EnglishGlossary (terminology and developer's professional slang) FrenchGlossary SubProjects developers documentation - Web developers documentation FAQ WindowsConfigurationDifferences Zope3Book Zope3Book.it InternationalDocumentation Implementation -- zope3 releases ~~ ZopeX3 seria Zope3 seria Add-on packages releases (subprojects) ~~ AddOnPackages PyXML Outdated and obsolete = HistoricalDocuments (outdated) ReferenceDocumentation (obsolete) Archive === ZopeCVSWiki Full tree here: http://www.zope.org/Members/netlander/newWikiTree/document_view Step 2. Synchronization documentation with Zope3 releases. Badges: -- outdated – related with previous Zope3 releases -- current - related with current zope3 releases -- future – related with next releases Question: Is this approach all right? What do you think about using enterprise architecture model and enterprise lifecycle model for creation zope3.org? P.S. I repeat here all lists and images: http://www.zope.org/Members/netlander/index.html -- Regards, Valeri Lazarev ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
P.S. I repeat here all lists and images: http://www.zope.org/Members/netlander/index.html Sorry, link above not viewable. Better here: http://en.netlander.org/projects/wikiImport -- Regards, Valeri Lazarev ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
Hi Valeri, I can help to review existing Zope3Dev wiki. May be create list: wiki -- status. Statuses may be: -- outdated -- under development (still requires further agreement) -- recomended (tried and tested) RIght? Such a list would be very useful. But I think the states recommended and outdated are sufficient (at least for the moment). If in doubt I would take over the contribution and let the recipients decide whether they make any use of the contribution or not. If you send this list to me I will integrate it into the importer. Thanks for the help, Uwe Dr. Uwe Oestermeier Institut für Wissensmedien Knowledge Media Research Center Konrad-Adenauer-Str. 40 D-72072 Tuebingen Germany [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel. +49 7071 979-208 Fax +49 7071 979-100 ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
On Sunday 13 November 2005 13:37, netlander wrote: I can help to review existing Zope3Dev wiki. May be create list: wiki -- status. Statuses may be: -- outdated -- under development (still requires further agreement) -- recomended (tried and tested) RIght? Note that those type of tags already exist and are used. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
On Tuesday 18 October 2005 21:12, Mikhail Kashkin wrote: I'm also want to offer me as fresh meat in this effort. My proposition for site plan, index pages *mark*:: Hi Mikhail, the outline is nice, but contains items that we do not have already; for example it has a huge documentation section with lots of items, but none of this type of documentation exists and you cannot expect it to magically appear. Having said this, I really wish someone would take ownership in developing our zope3.org site. Unfortunately I have not heard from Uwe anymore, but someone should contact him and see what's going on. With that much interest I would hope that a steady developer group around zope3.org would form. Is that possible? IS someone willed to take the lead? Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
Stephan Richter wrote: On Tuesday 18 October 2005 21:12, Mikhail Kashkin wrote: I'm also want to offer me as fresh meat in this effort. My proposition for site plan, index pages *mark*:: Having said this, I really wish someone would take ownership in developing our zope3.org site. Unfortunately I have not heard from Uwe anymore, but someone should contact him and see what's going on. With that much interest I would hope that a steady developer group around zope3.org would form. Is that possible? IS someone willed to take the lead? Hi Stephan, And I agree to help zope3.org group. I can spend 2-3 hours everyday. Where to start? -- Regards, Netlander ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
Stephan Richter wrote: On Tuesday 11 October 2005 12:41, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: If anyone here really needs WYSIWYG, please make a point, but I doubt that there will be one... It's a top priority for Jim. Uwe and I agreed we would prefer ReST. I got the impression from Jim that this was just an idea that he wanted to try out. Ideas you're eager to try are different than top priorities, right? Unfortunately having a wiki page in HTML and in ReST is rather incompatible; while you can translate ReST to HTML, HTML to ReST would at best be unreliable and confusing. This means HTML pages can only be edited as HTML ever. Then again, I'm interested in seeing how the idea would work. Whether that should be driving a Zope 3 site as a whole is another question. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
Hey Mats, Thanks for joining this discussion! Mats Nordgren wrote: My name is Mats, I've visited #zope-dev under the nick gnosis. I've long been a fan of Zope but very inactive in the community. I'm not much of a programmer and always had a hard time grepping Zope2. Zope3 has made great strides to develop simple stuff like content object etc, I still have a hard time with more advanced stuff like workflow, memberships, catalog (I know these might seem like trivial stuff to the likes of you ;) These things are never trivial to me at least; don't underestimate yourself there by overestimating others. :) I've spoken to J1m and emailed Stephan and asked if there was anything I could do with helping this along, ideas, organization, editing, etc. I'm with Martijn that the site should itself be marketing for Zope3 technology and should be geared towards all levels of knowledge on Zope technology. Great to hear you're offering to help! Perhaps you and I should just get together and try to write up some texts. Drop me a mail if you like. I'd love to see a much more extensive section with how-tos, recipes, and tutorials. If I can conquer Zope we should have hit the bottom of the proficiency scale :) Perhaps I can get there by helping with those specific sections. Great idea! My first contributions to Zope back in '99 or so were in the Zope Documentation Project. Stephan Richter also was heavily involved in this back then. Would there be any chance that a message board could be included directly on the site for support? Perhaps take Stephan's messageboard tutorial? This would showcase Zope3 and add more layers of support. Perhaps this could be synced with the zope-user mail list? Just make it easier to get quick help without the somewhat tedious process of getting running on the list. It's something to consider, though I'd like to set the technology requirements for any new Zope 3 site as low as possible, so that we don't have an excuse from doing stuff. :) Regards, Martijn ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
Stephan Richter wrote: On Tuesday 11 October 2005 12:41, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: If anyone here really needs WYSIWYG, please make a point, but I doubt that there will be one... It's a top priority for Jim. Uwe and I agreed we would prefer ReST. I would definitely prefer ReST too. Dominik begin:vcard fn:Dominik Huber n:Huber;Dominik email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] tel;work:++41 56 534 77 30 x-mozilla-html:FALSE version:2.1 end:vcard ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
Martijn Faassen wrote: Hey Philipp, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: [snip] Here's my 2 cents, even if I might be too late (but hey, when should I have brought this up?): I think it's a *bad* idea to host Zope 3 on its own site, because: a) It will be yet another systems we need maintainance volunteers for. As it seems we don't even have enough for the current zope.org right now. If we had more volunteers with more time on their hands, they would have already been on the matter and the dog-slow system would have been improved a long time ago (note that I'm not necessarily saying replaced). A zope3.org will eventually need some caching, it will eventually need user management, etc. We already have a human resource problem on the development side, what makes everyone think we won't have it on the maintainance side? A counterargument to this would be that volunteers to maintain the present zope.org infrastructure and content are hard to find. A leaner, meaner, separate zope3.org might find more people that want to be involved. Exactly. Unfortunately, zope.org is a mess. My hope (and I suggested this sprint topic) was that, as Martijn said, we could get a lean mean useful site for Zope3. My hope is that, if this happens, that this might be a useful prototype for a future zope.org site. In the long run, my hope is that we will have a single zope site that talks about both Zope 2 and Zope 3. Perhaps, if the zope3 site is successful, then the zope 3 site will morph into a combined site. Sorting out the content of zope.org, which has been carried around for more than half a decade, is a job I wouldn't volunteer for. Helping to write some content for a fresh new site and figuring out what fits where is something I *am* volunteering for. Yay Putting WYSIWYG integration into a list of first-class todo items seems like wrong prioritization to me (I'd rather have a stable backend first), You are probably right. An HTML only wiki was my idea because I find wiki markup, of it's various flavors to be a real obstical to collaboration. I appreciate that not everyone agrees with me on this. It was, probably, unfair of me to request this. What I want most is a table usable zope.org, with zope3.org as a possible first step toward that goal. ... I think it's important to try to separate the content production/technology aspect of things, which the sprint apparently focused on from the actual site content aspects. Yup From what I can see, the sprint focused on using Zope 3 technologies to build a Zope 3 site. To use Zope 3 for a Zope 3 site seems a good idea from the marketing perspective already -- we want to demonstrate we can eat our own dogfood. My expectation is that it might also make it more likely for people to want to help with development and maintenance. The idea seems to have been to use a wiki for this, something which also has a predecent within the Zope community, as well as in the open source community at large. The advantage of Wiki, IMO being that it requires the least up front design. :) The whole WYSIWYG HTML-edit wiki thing is a neat idea involving using HTML as the wiki markup language instead of something else. We'll just have to see how that works out. While I really want this, I don't want it to get in the way of a successful site. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
Why is WYSIWYG so important? Who's going to be editing all of that? I don't want another zopewiki.org. I think that zopewiki.org is a good site and that there should be an area of the site that's like that which may be open to the world - but I'd like serious / fun / USABLE documentation to be separate from that. You all know my feelings about Wikis. I walk away from so many technical wikis frustrated. I finally find a page I'm looking for, and it's contents are either: --- MultiAdapter A multi adapter adapts multiple objects --- Or --- HowToMakeAPie I found this link to a tip on this other site and it seems cool. http://www.example.com/how/to/make/a/pie --- As an outsider trying to get started, it doesn't take long for me to get frustrated and walk away. When I may be more settled in and curious about more, full community recipe sites or wikis may be a trove of terrific information. But don't waste my time making me click on page after page. Look at how accessible the quick start, the about, the docs, and more are accessible on TurboGears: http://turbogears.org/ Ruby On Rails has a wiki, but it's a few steps back from the front page, which again makes information well available: http://www.rubyonrails.com/ Django's got an informative web site: http://www.djangoproject.com/ Most of the information one would want on these sites are available within a few clicks, without their front pages feeling cramped and overloaded. Tutorials, quick starts, downloading, getting involved - all close. There are two nice quick start documents written in ReST already. Why don't we make it easy for those authors to put those in a common place first instead of debating over WYSIWYG editing? Let the smart people put the first content together. Make it easy for new people to find information over making it easy for new people to add noise. Are you trying to attract outsiders so that they'll get excited and grow the platform's base, or are you trying to keep Zope 3 within this small community and make it easy for those within this small community to tell each other what most of us already know? It sounds like the priority has been on the latter - make it a site to drive development of the Zope 3 platform itself. I think development is going fine with the tools already in place. Lets drive adoption by making our message heard! And again - that's not to say that the development wiki or a community wiki is excluded from that. But as I showed with the comments of just one smart outsider - getting information about Zope 3 is a frustrating process. On 10/12/05, Martijn Faassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stephan Richter wrote: On Tuesday 11 October 2005 12:41, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: If anyone here really needs WYSIWYG, please make a point, but I doubt that there will be one... It's a top priority for Jim. Uwe and I agreed we would prefer ReST. I got the impression from Jim that this was just an idea that he wanted to try out. Ideas you're eager to try are different than top priorities, right? Unfortunately having a wiki page in HTML and in ReST is rather incompatible; while you can translate ReST to HTML, HTML to ReST would at best be unreliable and confusing. This means HTML pages can only be edited as HTML ever. Then again, I'm interested in seeing how the idea would work. Whether that should be driving a Zope 3 site as a whole is another question. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/eucci.group%40gmail.com ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
Martijn Faassen schrieb: Hi there, I'm very curious to see what work was done on a Zope 3 website at the Neckar sprint. Can someone send a report to the list? The plan has been to migrate all the Wiki pages from zope.org to zope3.org. The new thing is, that Wikipages should be editable with a WYSIWYG editor after the migration. I hope that there will be an option to choose structured text too. More infos in the README: http://svn.zope.org/zope3org/trunk/src/wikification/README.txt?view=markup Tonico ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
Tonico Strasser wrote: Martijn Faassen schrieb: Hi there, I'm very curious to see what work was done on a Zope 3 website at the Neckar sprint. Can someone send a report to the list? The plan has been to migrate all the Wiki pages from zope.org to zope3.org. Interesting, and a bit sad to hear that plans seem to have been settled now to host Zope 3 on its own site. We nowadays require a proposal for essential code changes to Zope 3, but when it comes to community things like the hosting of Zope 3, there is not only no proposal but not even a heads-up. We are actually informed about what's going on while it's going on; at least the NeckarSprint page didn't say anything about work on zope3.org. Here's my 2 cents, even if I might be too late (but hey, when should I have brought this up?): I think it's a *bad* idea to host Zope 3 on its own site, because: a) It will be yet another systems we need maintainance volunteers for. As it seems we don't even have enough for the current zope.org right now. If we had more volunteers with more time on their hands, they would have already been on the matter and the dog-slow system would have been improved a long time ago (note that I'm not necessarily saying replaced). A zope3.org will eventually need some caching, it will eventually need user management, etc. We already have a human resource problem on the development side, what makes everyone think we won't have it on the maintainance side? b) It is exactly the opposite of what we've been trying to do for the last couple of months: convergence, not divergence! If we want Zope 3 and its Component Architecture to be recognized by people, it needs to be a first class citizen on zope.org, not some separate site. Why? Because Zope 2 will soon incorporate lots of Zope 3 technology (it already does incorporate some), making it all look like two separate worlds is far from reality. In conclusion, I'm a bit disappointed by the flow of information and the lack of communication in this matter. I'm not at all happy about the solution, as I've stated above. The new thing is, that Wikipages should be editable with a WYSIWYG editor after the migration. I hope that there will be an option to choose structured text too. Putting WYSIWYG integration into a list of first-class todo items seems like wrong prioritization to me (I'd rather have a stable backend first), but I'm not going to get into that now. It seems that community input wasn't wanted (and I would love to be proven wrong on that)... Philipp ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
I couldn't disagree more. Moving Zope3 off of Zope.org is a big mistake. Zope 3 is part of Zope is it not? Shouldn't it be on that website? It just seems silly and short-sighted to try to break out one from the other, when all Zopes (1/2/3..10/11/12) belong on that one website. Wasn't that the point of moving CMF back from cmf.zope.org? Why not spend the time and energy making Zope.org a better place than just moving it off to yet another under-developed and utilized website? My $.03 Jake -- http://www.ZopeZone.com Benji York said: Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: b) It is exactly the opposite of what we've been trying to do for the last couple of months: convergence, not divergence! I think that differentiating Zope 3 from Zope 2 is a good thing. If we want Zope 3 and its Component Architecture to be recognized by people, it needs to be a first class citizen on zope.org, not some separate site. Nothing says that zope3.org can't be prominently displayed on zope.org. Why? Because Zope 2 will soon incorporate lots of Zope 3 technology (it already does incorporate some), I would posit that there are *many* non-Zope 2 users, and that is a group we need to attract. Too closely associating Zope 2 and Zope 3 will only inhibit that. making it all look like two separate worlds is far from reality. I'm more interested in promoting Zope 3 than having web site structure reflect reality. -- Benji York Senior Software Engineer Zope Corporation ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/jake%40zopezone.com ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
Benji York wrote: Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: b) It is exactly the opposite of what we've been trying to do for the last couple of months: convergence, not divergence! I think that differentiating Zope 3 from Zope 2 is a good thing. Sure. I never said that their differences shouldn't be stated. However, I see them as two corner stones in the Zope evolvement path. A third one would be the CMF whose separate site, by the way, vanished into nirvana some time ago... If you want to point out Zope 2's and Zope 3's differences, we can't have information floating around on separate sites. The top #1 questions on #zope that have to do with Zope 3 are: 1. Is Zope 3 mature enough to be developed for/with? 2. When should I use Zope 3? 3. What's the deal with Zope 2 and Zope 3 in the future? These questions are all about the differences and advantages of the two platforms, but they all have to do with the whole Zope brand. Why split all this apart? If we want Zope 3 and its Component Architecture to be recognized by people, it needs to be a first class citizen on zope.org, not some separate site. Nothing says that zope3.org can't be prominently displayed on zope.org. This makes it almost sound like a link under Zope exits :). Seriously, I'm saying that Zope 3 promotion should be accessbile right on the front page. If you mean that by prominently displayed, then I don't see why we need a separate site for that if zope.org could take that over. I don't think no one wants to prominently display Zope 2 anymore... Why? Because Zope 2 will soon incorporate lots of Zope 3 technology (it already does incorporate some), I would posit that there are *many* non-Zope 2 users, and that is a group we need to attract. Too closely associating Zope 2 and Zope 3 will only inhibit that. This is a good point. Zope 2 indeed had to experience some heavy ressentiments from the Python community. However, I don't see why Zope 3 couldn't rehabilitate Zope 2 here. Showing that we're actually willling to evolve that old beast called Zope 2 to the slick new architecture called Zope 3 is a pretty good message. making it all look like two separate worlds is far from reality. I'm more interested in promoting Zope 3 than having web site structure reflect reality. I have to take back the word reality and insert our goals: Making it look like two separate worlds is far from _our goals_. I too want to promote Zope 3, as well as Zope 3 technology inside Zope 2. I just believe that this is best done while staying under the hood of the Zope community website. Philipp ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
Hey Philipp, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: [snip] Here's my 2 cents, even if I might be too late (but hey, when should I have brought this up?): I think it's a *bad* idea to host Zope 3 on its own site, because: a) It will be yet another systems we need maintainance volunteers for. As it seems we don't even have enough for the current zope.org right now. If we had more volunteers with more time on their hands, they would have already been on the matter and the dog-slow system would have been improved a long time ago (note that I'm not necessarily saying replaced). A zope3.org will eventually need some caching, it will eventually need user management, etc. We already have a human resource problem on the development side, what makes everyone think we won't have it on the maintainance side? A counterargument to this would be that volunteers to maintain the present zope.org infrastructure and content are hard to find. A leaner, meaner, separate zope3.org might find more people that want to be involved. Sorting out the content of zope.org, which has been carried around for more than half a decade, is a job I wouldn't volunteer for. Helping to write some content for a fresh new site and figuring out what fits where is something I *am* volunteering for. b) It is exactly the opposite of what we've been trying to do for the last couple of months: convergence, not divergence! If we want Zope 3 and its Component Architecture to be recognized by people, it needs to be a first class citizen on zope.org, not some separate site. Why? Because Zope 2 will soon incorporate lots of Zope 3 technology (it already does incorporate some), making it all look like two separate worlds is far from reality. As Benji said, we want to market to non-Zope 2 developers with this as well, and we can link zope.org to zope3.org. Placing some distance between Zope 3 and Zope 2 is useful in order to convince people who've been scar(r)ed by their previous Zope 2 experiences, or at least received the meme that Zope 2 is something Python programmers don't want to mix with, to take another look at Zope 3 now. Perhaps we can come up with a similar scenario as what we think is going to happen with Zope 2 and Zope 3. Zope 2 is the old, hard to maintain system here, Zope 3 the new cool system. We intend to improve Zope 2 by adding in Zope 3 pieces, and eventually start replacing parts of it with Zope 3 technology. In the foggy future, Zope 2 and Zope 3 become profiles of the same Zope system, until the differences have gone away. zope3.org could be to zope.org what Zope 3 is to Zope 2. We could cherrypick the content in zope.org that is about Zope 3 and want to have in the new site. Eventually we may start building up a section about Zope 3 in Zope 2 as well on the new zope3.org. Over time, more and more of the useful content gets moved, until finally zope.org and zope3.org are essential the same website about Zope. At some stage we flip a switch and turn zope3.org into zope.org. I have a slight preference for something like zope3.org as compared to zope.org/zope3, as I think that makes the separation a bit clearer. Of course, zope.org/zope3 could be technologically separated from the rest of zope.org too. [snip] The new thing is, that Wikipages should be editable with a WYSIWYG editor after the migration. I hope that there will be an option to choose structured text too. Putting WYSIWYG integration into a list of first-class todo items seems like wrong prioritization to me (I'd rather have a stable backend first), but I'm not going to get into that now. It seems that community input wasn't wanted (and I would love to be proven wrong on that)... I think it's important to try to separate the content production/technology aspect of things, which the sprint apparently focused on from the actual site content aspects. From what I can see, the sprint focused on using Zope 3 technologies to build a Zope 3 site. To use Zope 3 for a Zope 3 site seems a good idea from the marketing perspective already -- we want to demonstrate we can eat our own dogfood. The idea seems to have been to use a wiki for this, something which also has a predecent within the Zope community, as well as in the open source community at large. The whole WYSIWYG HTML-edit wiki thing is a neat idea involving using HTML as the wiki markup language instead of something else. We'll just have to see how that works out. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
Martijn Faassen wrote: Here's my 2 cents, even if I might be too late (but hey, when should I have brought this up?): I think it's a *bad* idea to host Zope 3 on its own site, because: a) It will be yet another systems we need maintainance volunteers for. As it seems we don't even have enough for the current zope.org right now. If we had more volunteers with more time on their hands, they would have already been on the matter and the dog-slow system would have been improved a long time ago (note that I'm not necessarily saying replaced). A zope3.org will eventually need some caching, it will eventually need user management, etc. We already have a human resource problem on the development side, what makes everyone think we won't have it on the maintainance side? A counterargument to this would be that volunteers to maintain the present zope.org infrastructure and content are hard to find. A leaner, meaner, separate zope3.org might find more people that want to be involved. True. As Benji said, we want to market to non-Zope 2 developers with this as well, and we can link zope.org to zope3.org. Placing some distance between Zope 3 and Zope 2 is useful in order to convince people who've been scar(r)ed by their previous Zope 2 experiences, or at least received the meme that Zope 2 is something Python programmers don't want to mix with, to take another look at Zope 3 now. Perhaps we can come up with a similar scenario as what we think is going to happen with Zope 2 and Zope 3. Zope 2 is the old, hard to maintain system here, Zope 3 the new cool system. We intend to improve Zope 2 by adding in Zope 3 pieces, and eventually start replacing parts of it with Zope 3 technology. In the foggy future, Zope 2 and Zope 3 become profiles of the same Zope system, until the differences have gone away. zope3.org could be to zope.org what Zope 3 is to Zope 2. We could cherrypick the content in zope.org that is about Zope 3 and want to have in the new site. Eventually we may start building up a section about Zope 3 in Zope 2 as well on the new zope3.org. Over time, more and more of the useful content gets moved, until finally zope.org and zope3.org are essential the same website about Zope. At some stage we flip a switch and turn zope3.org into zope.org. This does sound quite reasonable (and it's the first real concept about all this that I've seen laid out here...). However, I would very much tend to having a leaner, meaner zope.org fromt he beginning instead of a cherry-picked zope3.org. Cherry-picking on our side will also make the Zope brand appear weirder because stuff that will inevitably concern Zope 2 through Five will be on zope3.org while other docs (e.g. installation guide) remains on zope.org. Also, once we have a leaner, meaner zope3.org, I can already see Andreas putting Zope 2 tarballs there because the old zope.org is getting too much in his way (which it really is, and not just into his way, but also ours)... Maybe my view is just too pessimistic, but I foresee more chaos in separation than structure. I have a slight preference for something like zope3.org as compared to zope.org/zope3, as I think that makes the separation a bit clearer. Of course, zope.org/zope3 could be technologically separated from the rest of zope.org too. I'm not actually saying that Zope 3 should have it's own section of the site. I'm saying that the site should be about Zope 3 altogether. zope.org/docs should have docs about Zope 3 too, zope.org/downloads contains Zope 3 tarballs, zope.org/collector contains Zope 3 issues, zope.org/dev is be a development area for both Zope 2 and Zope 3. Some of that is already reality, actually (downloads, collector). If something would *have* to live under some directory, I think it should be Zope 2 (zope.org/zope2), not Zope 3 (zope.org/zope3). The new thing is, that Wikipages should be editable with a WYSIWYG editor after the migration. I hope that there will be an option to choose structured text too. Putting WYSIWYG integration into a list of first-class todo items seems like wrong prioritization to me (I'd rather have a stable backend first), but I'm not going to get into that now. It seems that community input wasn't wanted (and I would love to be proven wrong on that)... I think it's important to try to separate the content production/technology aspect of things, which the sprint apparently focused on from the actual site content aspects. From what I can see, the sprint focused on using Zope 3 technologies to build a Zope 3 site. To use Zope 3 for a Zope 3 site seems a good idea from the marketing perspective already -- we want to demonstrate we can eat our own dogfood. The idea seems to have been to use a wiki for this, something which also has a predecent within the Zope community, as well as in the open source community at large. Not arguing with you here. The whole WYSIWYG HTML-edit wiki thing is a neat idea
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
On Tue, Oct 11, 2005 at 03:53:23PM +0200, Martijn Faassen wrote: Perhaps we can come up with a similar scenario as what we think is going to happen with Zope 2 and Zope 3. Zope 2 is the old, hard to maintain system here, Zope 3 the new cool system. We intend to improve Zope 2 by adding in Zope 3 pieces, and eventually start replacing parts of it with Zope 3 technology. In the foggy future, Zope 2 and Zope 3 become profiles of the same Zope system, until the differences have gone away. Do you mean that the site should run Zope3? Do mature Z3 applications exist for this? -- __ Nothing is as subjective as reality Reinoud van Leeuwen[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.xs4all.nl/~reinoud __ ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
Martijn Faassen schrieb: ... Has work been done on a reasonably slick layout for the website as well or is this still planned? Don't know about plans. After a short discussion on the sprint we have agreed on starting with a very simple layout. It's not finished yet, it should contain those elements: header - Zope 3 logo - username | login | log out - search box columns first column - breadcrumbs - the content area - some actions for edit, print, history, subsbscribe, ... - a by-line - a comment section second column - a simple navtree footer - ... http://svn.zope.org/zope3org/trunk/src/wikification/browser/main_template.pt?view=markup Has an analysis been done what the goals are of this new site? Don't know. I guess no. Tonico ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
On Tuesday 11 October 2005 09:36, Jake wrote: Why not spend the time and energy making Zope.org a better place than just moving it off to yet another under-developed and utilized website? zope.org has very different requirements than zope3.org. The reason we want our own system is that we need a collaboration tool that works. zope.org does not and (1) most of us have no Plone experience and (2) might not be willing to sign the agreement. Finally, it will do Zope 3 some good to have a public Web site built with it. zope.org will be very heavy. zope3.org will be very light; a simple Wiki-like site that promotes collaboration. Even marketing is out of scope right now. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
On Tuesday 11 October 2005 09:46, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: If you want to point out Zope 2's and Zope 3's differences, we can't have information floating around on separate sites. The top #1 questions on #zope that have to do with Zope 3 are: 1. Is Zope 3 mature enough to be developed for/with? 2. When should I use Zope 3? 3. What's the deal with Zope 2 and Zope 3 in the future? These questions are all about the differences and advantages of the two platforms, but they all have to do with the whole Zope brand. Why split all this apart? All those pages have nothing to do with the collaboration among Zope 3 developers. The primary goal of the zope3.org site will be collaboration, nothing more. Well, I *might* put releases there as well, since I am totally fed up with the ridiculous workflow on zope.org. (I am surprised Andreas has not capitulated until now!) Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
On Tuesday 11 October 2005 09:53, Martijn Faassen wrote: From what I can see, the sprint focused on using Zope 3 technologies to build a Zope 3 site. To use Zope 3 for a Zope 3 site seems a good idea from the marketing perspective already -- we want to demonstrate we can eat our own dogfood. The idea seems to have been to use a wiki for this, something which also has a predecent within the Zope community, as well as in the open source community at large. The whole WYSIWYG HTML-edit wiki thing is a neat idea involving using HTML as the wiki markup language instead of something else. We'll just have to see how that works out. Nice summary. +1 on all accounts. The most important sentence is the last one: This is an experiment to try to develop a better collaboration/documentation site! We will see whether it works out! Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
On Tuesday 11 October 2005 10:23, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: The whole WYSIWYG HTML-edit wiki thing is a neat idea involving using HTML as the wiki markup language instead of something else. We'll just have to see how that works out. Yes, I just wonder whether we have to think about stuff like this at this stage. I think the lack of WYSIWYG capability is the *least* problem people have with zope.org right now... Well, technology-wise, this integration is the hardest part of the current design. Jim's wikification idea, which was implemented by Uwe and Tonico at the sprint, is really cool and effective, so the only other pieces of technology were: - WYSIWYG editor integration - Site Design and HTML implementation (Tonico has done that) - conversion tool from the Zope 3 dev Wiki to the new site (almost completed by Gregoire) Note that we are not trying anything else at this point. We will see how it goes and how much people like it and then we will see what else we can do with it. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
Stephan Richter wrote: On Tuesday 11 October 2005 09:36, Jake wrote: Why not spend the time and energy making Zope.org a better place than just moving it off to yet another under-developed and utilized website? zope.org has very different requirements than zope3.org. The reason we want our own system is that we need a collaboration tool that works. So this is the goal of zope3.org? In this case I'm not interested in it as much as I thought. I thought we wanted to present zope 3 well to the outside world. I'm not particularly interested a special site for the Zope 3 proposal wiki. [snip] zope.org will be very heavy. zope3.org will be very light; a simple Wiki-like site that promotes collaboration. Even marketing is out of scope right now. Can you point me to the place where this was decided? Zope 3 is urgently in need of better marketing. Anyway, if this is indeed the plan for zope3.org, I was under a few severe misapprehensions and I hereby de-volunteer. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
Reinoud van Leeuwen wrote: On Tue, Oct 11, 2005 at 03:53:23PM +0200, Martijn Faassen wrote: Perhaps we can come up with a similar scenario as what we think is going to happen with Zope 2 and Zope 3. Zope 2 is the old, hard to maintain system here, Zope 3 the new cool system. We intend to improve Zope 2 by adding in Zope 3 pieces, and eventually start replacing parts of it with Zope 3 technology. In the foggy future, Zope 2 and Zope 3 become profiles of the same Zope system, until the differences have gone away. Do you mean that the site should run Zope3? Do mature Z3 applications exist for this? I think a site about Zope 3 should ideally run Zope 3. Since there's indeed not much mature in the way of CMS software for Zope 3, and since I've seen reasonable results reached with wiki software to manage sites about open source projects, I figured using a Z3 wiki to manage the site would be doable. Then again, the sprinters apparently have a quite different idea of what 'zope3.org' will be than myself and some others on the mailing list. Their goal seems to be to replace the component architecture wiki. This is not a very important priority to me; the wiki is only in use by a few core Zope 3 developers and in its present state is an anti-marketing tool. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
On Tuesday 11 October 2005 12:20, Martijn Faassen wrote: [snip] zope.org will be very heavy. zope3.org will be very light; a simple Wiki-like site that promotes collaboration. Even marketing is out of scope right now. Can you point me to the place where this was decided? Zope 3 is urgently in need of better marketing. Well, Jim and I simply agreed that our communication tools have to improve. Since we cannot easily alter the technology on zope.org, we remembered having zope3.org around to play with. I think a lot of people on the list (not you specifically) have seen the project too concretely. We have not decided anything, other than an approach we would like to try. It might not work at all. We wanted to keep the goals minimal and to subjects that we understand well; and that is a collaboration tool. There is a lot of room for other experiments, content structure, suggestions, etc. All I suggest is that we try those new tools on the existing Zope 3 dev Wiki pages, since this content has to be available anyhow. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
Stephan Richter wrote: On Tuesday 11 October 2005 12:20, Martijn Faassen wrote: [snip] zope.org will be very heavy. zope3.org will be very light; a simple Wiki-like site that promotes collaboration. Even marketing is out of scope right now. Can you point me to the place where this was decided? Zope 3 is urgently in need of better marketing. Well, Jim and I simply agreed that our communication tools have to improve. Since we cannot easily alter the technology on zope.org, we remembered having zope3.org around to play with. Right, but I also had a chat with Jim about zope3.org at the Plone Conference and it wasn't my impression that it was just about the Zope 3 developer's wiki. Perhaps this was a misunderstanding in our conversation. I think a lot of people on the list (not you specifically) have seen the project too concretely. We have not decided anything, other than an approach we would like to try. It might not work at all. We wanted to keep the goals minimal and to subjects that we understand well; and that is a collaboration tool. There is a lot of room for other experiments, content structure, suggestions, etc. All I suggest is that we try those new tools on the existing Zope 3 dev Wiki pages, since this content has to be available anyhow. Yes, I think calling the whole project zope3.org was a bit of a misnomer which set people to think about things quite different than your intent. That this happens to quite a lot of people is a hint that it might not be an optimal name anyway; people expect to see something else when they go there than that wiki. See my reply in the thread where I try to clean up our terminology. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
On 10/11/05, Philipp von Weitershausen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - a ZWiki on a bare Zope 2 is set up within minutes A ZWiki as found on the current zope.org is unusable, so I'll presume you mean an up-to-date ZWiki, which I expect is much nicer. Again (and I'm saying this again with the possibility of being stamped as repitive): The last thing I need for writing proposals or posting comments on the wiki is a WYSIWYG editor. Agreed. A WYSIWYG editor doesn't help, and makes the thing more fragile. I would hope a plain text editor would still be an option, even if we get stuck with HTML as the wiki markup (another point of contention, I suspect). We've been writing STX for years, maybe reST would be nice so that the proposal posted on the wiki If we don't have reST, then we haven't made any progress. Jim said a few years ago that reST would be the standard for Zope 3 documentation, and few people have really picked up on that. That's a shame, because it's so much nicer and more predictable than STX. (It also doesn't get the indentation of code fragments wrong.) These opinions are my own, and have not been filtered through Jim. :-) -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr.fdrake at gmail.com Society attacks early, when the individual is helpless. --B.F. Skinner ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
Fred Drake wrote: On 10/11/05, Philipp von Weitershausen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - a ZWiki on a bare Zope 2 is set up within minutes A ZWiki as found on the current zope.org is unusable, so I'll presume you mean an up-to-date ZWiki, which I expect is much nicer. Of course. Again (and I'm saying this again with the possibility of being stamped as repitive): The last thing I need for writing proposals or posting comments on the wiki is a WYSIWYG editor. Agreed. A WYSIWYG editor doesn't help, and makes the thing more fragile. I would hope a plain text editor would still be an option, even if we get stuck with HTML as the wiki markup (another point of contention, I suspect). We've been writing STX for years, maybe reST would be nice so that the proposal posted on the wiki If we don't have reST, then we haven't made any progress. Jim said a few years ago that reST would be the standard for Zope 3 documentation, and few people have really picked up on that. That's a shame, because it's so much nicer and more predictable than STX. (It also doesn't get the indentation of code fragments wrong.) These opinions are my own, and have not been filtered through Jim. :-) I love reST just as much as you do. Fortunately, ZWiki has been supporting reST for a long time now, so no worries there. I agree that an improved development home without reST support isn't improved at all. Btw, I think that Zope 3 is doing pretty well wrt reST (not counting the wiki pages for now). The only reST-ish but not fully reST-like file that I can think of is CHANGES.txt. But I'm not going to reindent that sucker... ;) Philipp ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
On Tuesday 11 October 2005 12:41, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: If anyone here really needs WYSIWYG, please make a point, but I doubt that there will be one... It's a top priority for Jim. Uwe and I agreed we would prefer ReST. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
For reference, http://zopewiki.org is an up-to-date zope 2 zwiki (see joyful.com for others), with mail-out/mail-in/external editor etc. enabled. If you haven't checked it recently, please do check the new organization by audience (down the left of the front page). I did a html-only zwiki demo for Jim which may have helped spark some ideas. I'm undecided on moving to straight html; +1 on trying it, for sure. Edits to large pages should be faster - no need to parse stx/rst. I'm not a huge fan of reST as it is not very forgiving and it is just obscure in places (linking). (I think stx really works well, except that the indentation rules are just too unexpected for new users.) The mature zope 2 zwiki's features have a certain usability and polish which I'd miss, but I'm really looking forward to checking out the new zope 3-based site/prototype/experiment. It's always good to see alternatives running in the real world and see what works and what doesn't. ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: zope3 website report?
On 10/11/05, Simon Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: PS - I believe you can predict a site's and its project's success based on whether it f*ks^H^H^H shrinks the fonts. Seriously. :) php.net, drupal.org, gnome.org, debian.org leave the font alone. You may be on to something. :-) New theory: zope.org is slow because its compressing all the fonts on everyone's computers. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr.fdrake at gmail.com Society attacks early, when the individual is helpless. --B.F. Skinner ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
