VACList-Digest Sunday, January 20, 2002 Issue 187
Today's Topics:
1. Acid washing
2. Re: Acid washing
3. Solar power
4. Re: Acid washing
5. belly pan removal/ jim smith
6. Re: Acid washing
7. Re: Solar power
8. Re: Solar power
9. yr of mfg?
10. Re: belly pan removal/ jim smith
11. Re: Solar power
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message Number: 1
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 07:20:53 -0700
From: "Kenneth E. Johansen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Acid washing
I'm looking at a trailer that has been acid washed. From the archives I
understand that acid takes a layer of aluminum off and that no amount of
washing will remove all the acid. Since this has been done my thought is
to stay away from the trailer, but I thought I would see is there are any
experts out there who agree or disagree with my decision.
Ken Johansen
5358
59 Traveler
------------------------------
Message Number: 2
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 08:59:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Toby Folwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Acid washing
ken - it can be recovered, polished and still end up a
mirror - it's just a little more work - the alclad may
be gone, or thinner, and since that's pure aluminum,
it renders a deeper "color" when polished and may
appear brighter in(and for) a shorter period of time.
AlClad oxidizes more quickly. I've sanded some
particularly bad panels and have achieved a mirror on
them, but I wouldn't recommend that kind of effort to
anyone else.
if it's a good trailer, I wouldn't stay away from it
only because it's been acid washed, but that's not the
best thing to do to a vintage airstream -
Toby
--- "Kenneth E. Johansen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> I'm looking at a trailer that has been acid washed.
> From the archives I
> understand that acid takes a layer of aluminum off
> and that no amount of
> washing will remove all the acid. Since this has
> been done my thought is
> to stay away from the trailer, but I thought I would
> see is there are any
> experts out there who agree or disagree with my
> decision.
>
> Ken Johansen
> 5358
> 59 Traveler
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a daily Digest format,
> please go to
> http://airstream.net/vaclist/listoffice.html
>
> When replying to a message, please delete all
> unnecessary original text
>
>
=====
"The apple grows so bright and high,
And ends its days in apple pie." - s. hoffenstein
http://www.tobyfolwick.com
Minneapolis, MN
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------------------------------
Message Number: 3
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 10:59:20 -0600
From: Dick and Kris Parins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Solar power
Terry Tyler wrote:
>
> Our 1300 watt inverter provides clean, surge free 120 volt power to operate
> the computer, monitor, printer, microwave, electric drill, breadmaker,
> vacuum cleaner and rechargeable tools. FOUR DEEP CYCLE MARINE RV BATTERIES,
FOUR SOLAR PANELS (THREE 53 WATT AND ONE 75 WATT)
I enjoyed reading about your travels "off the grid" and solar insights. I
am hoping to find a small Airstream which needs to be brought back to life.
After following the very helpful comments on this and the Airstream list I
am wondering if a complete rewiring could include only a 120 volt system
with everything operating through an inverter. With all due respect to Mark
I do not anticipate installing a 12 volt potty. But do other things, for
example the water pump or flourescent lights have to be 12 volt to have the
required efficiency? I'm picturing a setup where everything works exactly
the same whether switched to shore power or an inverter connected to
batteries and a solar charger. Thanks.
Dick
------------------------------
Message Number: 4
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:41:33 -0700
From: "Kenneth E. Johansen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Acid washing
If thats the case, whats the purpose of the ALClad? Over the years I've
know there has been a fair amount of discussion on ALClad - I also heard
the aluminun will shine up if the AlClad is gone - I'm a little confused.
Ken Johansen
5359
59 Traveler
At 08:59 AM 1/20/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>ken - it can be recovered, polished and still end up a
>mirror - it's just a little more work - the alclad may
>be gone, or thinner, and since that's pure aluminum,
>it renders a deeper "color" when polished and may
>appear brighter in(and for) a shorter period of time.
>AlClad oxidizes more quickly. I've sanded some
>particularly bad panels and have achieved a mirror on
>them, but I wouldn't recommend that kind of effort to
>anyone else.
>
>if it's a good trailer, I wouldn't stay away from it
>only because it's been acid washed, but that's not the
>best thing to do to a vintage airstream -
>
>Toby
>
>--- "Kenneth E. Johansen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>wrote:
>> I'm looking at a trailer that has been acid washed.
>> From the archives I
>> understand that acid takes a layer of aluminum off
>> and that no amount of
>> washing will remove all the acid. Since this has
>> been done my thought is
>> to stay away from the trailer, but I thought I would
>> see is there are any
>> experts out there who agree or disagree with my
>> decision.
>>
>> Ken Johansen
>> 5358
>> 59 Traveler
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe or change to a daily Digest format,
>> please go to
>> http://airstream.net/vaclist/listoffice.html
>>
>> When replying to a message, please delete all
>> unnecessary original text
>>
>>
>
>
>=====
>"The apple grows so bright and high,
>And ends its days in apple pie." - s. hoffenstein
>
>http://www.tobyfolwick.com
>Minneapolis, MN
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!
>http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe or change to a daily Digest format, please go to
>http://airstream.net/vaclist/listoffice.html
>
>When replying to a message, please delete all unnecessary original text
>
>
>
>
------------------------------
Message Number: 5
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 12:57:58 -0600
From: jim graves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: belly pan removal/ jim smith
jim,
i found you on tom p's archive. i have a couple of old airstreams i'm just
now getting into. am dropping the floor pan on my 54 safari. it's a basket
case and the frame rails are very rusty. could i persade you to share your
experience in the removal and replacement. airparts seems to have the
aluminum for replacement.
how bad was the bending and fitting of the new panels under the side panel.
it looks daunting from here. i considered as, advised previously, cutting a
strait edge a foot or so underneath and making a seam down there, but
decided against it as there were enough gouges and scrapes in the remaining
side panels to jusitfy a complete job. do you have the numbers on the rivets
and the guage of the new panels? i guess you had to buy the head shaver.
if there are other threads that you or anyone genereated i would be very
interested in reading them. was also interested in your account of the
diesel generator and curious about the placement. i am scratching my head
about locating the black/brown water tanks, as well.
what did you use for insulation?
has anyone tried sand blasting the frame rails with the floor still in
place. would leaving the unblasted surface against the plywood still rusty
and treated the blasted surfaces with POR make any since at all.
what about replacement of the exterior frame rails where they meet the
tongue? my are pitted beyond help.
is the old style ball receiver still preferred. it seems more secure than
the modern ones i'm used to.
thanks, as always,
jim graves
thanks
------------------------------
Message Number: 6
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 10:03:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Toby Folwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Acid washing
okay - I'm going to get into some speculation here,
but this is not a scientific post - you've been
warned.
i think the cladded (pure aluminum) layer is put on
the sheet to protect the lower layers from
deteriorating. since the lower layers are impure, and
are primarily an alloy designed to add strength, the
pure aluminum on top will take the oxidation "hit" as
it were. that oxidation is the reaction of the pure
aluminum defending itself against the elements - and I
also understand that the AlClad layer will "throw"
itself (assumably through oxidation) over and into
mated pieces of aluminum. I don't think the use of
Alclad was for shine, but rather "shine" is a nice
by-product. if you're using abrasion polishes (i.e.
Rolite, Nuvite) and you were to continually polish the
trailer to perfect brilliance 3 times a year, I
suspect that you'd eventually wear through the AlClad
and be polishing the alloy in short order. These are
the claims of the people who sell "friction" type
polishes (i.e. green ox, tripoli and jeweler's type
burnishing bars) that these polishes, instead of
grinding off the oxidated material making a smooth and
shiny surface, will actually make the aluminum "flow"
(by heat? or, no - friction) smoothing the surface by
re-mating it with itself - removing less material, and
extending the polished life of the aluminum sheet.
And to be honest, I buy that. primarily because I've
seen it in action, and it seems to be a good reason
for jewelers to use friction polish. It's just that
joe or jane schmo generally can't afford the equipment
to do a job that big once every 2 years.
so, there's my 2 cents for free.
Toby
--- "Kenneth E. Johansen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> If thats the case, whats the purpose of the ALClad?
> Over the years I've
> know there has been a fair amount of discussion on
> ALClad - I also heard
> the aluminun will shine up if the AlClad is gone -
> I'm a little confused.
=====
"The apple grows so bright and high,
And ends its days in apple pie." - s. hoffenstein
http://www.tobyfolwick.com
Minneapolis, MN
__________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message Number: 7
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 10:28:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Toby Folwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Solar power
Dick - I've been doing some reading on this - so it's
not from my experience, but others'...
> After following the very helpful comments on this
> and the Airstream list I
> am wondering if a complete rewiring could include
> only a 120 volt system
> with everything operating through an inverter.
as I understand it, you lose alot of the juice that
the solar panels generate converting it (or is it
inverting it?) instead of just piping it into
batteries - and the general thought is to isolate your
systems so you've got one of each along side each
other - additionally, you get more juice into the
batteries the less wire it has to travel through. in
my case, that's how my 1960 tradewind seems to be set
up.
> But do other things, for
> example the water pump or flourescent lights have to
> be 12 volt to have the
> required efficiency?
I think it might just be that you have to determine
your priorities on this one. You might want to set
the whole trailer up as a 12 volt system since solar
power is LESS efficient (transferral-wise) and shore
power is so much cheaper, that running shore power
through a converter/inverter will, in the long run
(maybe even in the short run), save you money. (IMHO)
Toby
p.s. here are the books I've been reading on the topic
and general energy conservation if you will - and a
couple good links. some only partly relative.
Books:
Earthship 1,2,3 - Michael Reynolds
The Straw Bale House - Steen, Steen and Bainbridge
Links:
http://www.realgoods.com
http://www.rvsolarelectric.com
http://www.backwoodssolar.com/
http://www.rvsolar.com
http://www.siemenssolar.com
http://www.kyocerasolar.com
http://www.windsun.com
=====
"The apple grows so bright and high,
And ends its days in apple pie." - s. hoffenstein
http://www.tobyfolwick.com
Minneapolis, MN
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!
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------------------------------
Message Number: 8
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 13:32:29 -0600
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Solar power
The trailer or house with only the 120 volt circuit powered by the
inverter and batteries without grid power does work. The efficiency rub
is the 1300 watt inverter. There are two losses in the inverter, one the
constant power required by the controller and power transistor drivers,
the other proportional to load, resistive loss in the power transistors.
That constant power is a killer when running the typical trailer loads,
a couple 7 watt fluorescent lights. The full load efficiency of the
inverter is good enough and the wiring efficiency at 120 volts is better
so the big loads, like the microwave, make very good use of battery
energy, but the small loads kill the battery much faster with the large
inverter than with their direct use of power (pumps), and 12 volt
operated fluorescent lamps. I suspect the constant minimum power
requirements of the 1300 watt inverter run to at least 50 to 75 watts,
all the time its inverting. Less when shut down because of NO load. A
fluorescent lamp on 120 volts looses only about 20% of its power in the
ballast. I suspect the 12 volt inverter/ballast looses power more like
the lamp power, but for a 7 watt lamp, that 7 watts of dedicated
inverter loss is much less than the 50 or 75 watts minimum power to run
the large inverter.
I think its better to compromise and use the 12 volt system for the
small loads such as radio (e.g. car radio), TV (that runs direct on 12
volts), water pump, vent fan, and lights and only run the inverter for
the large loads like microwave, blender, and vacuum cleaner. This
prolongs battery life and battery capacity to say nothing of reducing
maintenance. Each battery cell requires monthly inspection for water
level, and annual battery post cleaning. The more loads you want to run,
the more cells to be maintained. Batteries have finite life and then
there's the cost of replacement and the cost of hauling them because
lead and sulfuric acid are HEAVY.
There has been and will be much discussion in Home Power magazine about
solar power homes with batteries, solar panels, and inverters. They all
worry about the "phantom" loads of electric clocks, TVs and computers
that don't really go to zero load when turned off. Those are what cause
energy consumption from the battery far in excess of their AC rating
because of the severe inefficiency of the large inverter at minuscule
loads.
Gerald J.
--
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson. Reproduction by
permission only.
------------------------------
Message Number: 9
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 15:13:45 EST
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: yr of mfg?
hi folks,i have this airstream,overlander,26 ft.the guy that gave it to me
cant find the paper work on it .curious as to what year it is?ser. no
is...s-126410417. also what are those black numbers across the front for?
thanks,[EMAIL PROTECTED] in ojai,ca.
------------------------------
Message Number: 10
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 19:09:20 -0500
From: Jim Dunmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: belly pan removal/ jim smith
Jim,
I replaced the 'A' frame on our 1968 A/S, cutting the boxed channel
just ahead of the front wall of the trailer body. Installed a new hitch
at the same time; that came from Northern Tool & Equipment.
<<Jim>>
jim graves wrote:
> jim,
>
> i found you on tom p's archive. i have a couple of old airstreams i'm just
> now getting into. am dropping the floor pan on my 54 safari. it's a basket
> case and the frame rails are very rusty. could i persade you to share your
> experience in the removal and replacement. airparts seems to have the
> aluminum for replacement.
>
> how bad was the bending and fitting of the new panels under the side panel.
> it looks daunting from here. i considered as, advised previously, cutting a
> strait edge a foot or so underneath and making a seam down there, but
> decided against it as there were enough gouges and scrapes in the remaining
> side panels to jusitfy a complete job. do you have the numbers on the rivets
> and the guage of the new panels? i guess you had to buy the head shaver.
>
> if there are other threads that you or anyone genereated i would be very
> interested in reading them. was also interested in your account of the
> diesel generator and curious about the placement. i am scratching my head
> about locating the black/brown water tanks, as well.
>
> what did you use for insulation?
>
> has anyone tried sand blasting the frame rails with the floor still in
> place. would leaving the unblasted surface against the plywood still rusty
> and treated the blasted surfaces with POR make any since at all.
>
> what about replacement of the exterior frame rails where they meet the
> tongue? my are pitted beyond help.
>
> is the old style ball receiver still preferred. it seems more secure than
> the modern ones i'm used to.
>
> thanks, as always,
>
> jim graves
>
> thanks
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a daily Digest format, please go to
> http://airstream.net/vaclist/listoffice.html
>
> When replying to a message, please delete all unnecessary original text
>
>
>
>
--
<<http://www.oldengine.org/members/jdunmyer>>
<<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
<<lower SE Michigan, USA>>
<<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
------------------------------
Message Number: 11
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 19:15:46 -0500
From: Jim Dunmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Solar power
Dick,
Your trailer is all wired for 12VDC now; the 120VAC wiring is for the
receptacles and power for the converter (think: great big battery charger).
As it is now, everything works exactly the same whether connected to
shore power or not, with the exception of any 120VAC appliances.
Our choice was not NOT CARRY any 120VAC appliances at all. The only
exception is a small electric heater to save on propane IF we're
connected to shore power. We do have a small portable inverter to run
the laptop if needed.
As Gerald said, the idling current of the inverter will kill you, and to
not good reason anyway. If you leave the wiring alone, all lights, the
pump, etc. are already running on 12VDC.
<<Jim>>
Dick and Kris Parins wrote:
>
> Terry Tyler wrote:
>
>>Our 1300 watt inverter provides clean, surge free 120 volt power to operate
>>the computer, monitor, printer, microwave, electric drill, breadmaker,
>>vacuum cleaner and rechargeable tools. FOUR DEEP CYCLE MARINE RV BATTERIES,
>>
> FOUR SOLAR PANELS (THREE 53 WATT AND ONE 75 WATT)
>
> I enjoyed reading about your travels "off the grid" and solar insights. I
> am hoping to find a small Airstream which needs to be brought back to life.
> After following the very helpful comments on this and the Airstream list I
> am wondering if a complete rewiring could include only a 120 volt system
> with everything operating through an inverter. With all due respect to Mark
> I do not anticipate installing a 12 volt potty. But do other things, for
> example the water pump or flourescent lights have to be 12 volt to have the
> required efficiency? I'm picturing a setup where everything works exactly
> the same whether switched to shore power or an inverter connected to
> batteries and a solar charger. Thanks.
>
> Dick
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a daily Digest format, please go to
> http://airstream.net/vaclist/listoffice.html
>
> When replying to a message, please delete all unnecessary original text
>
>
>
>
--
<<http://www.oldengine.org/members/jdunmyer>>
<<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
<<lower SE Michigan, USA>>
<<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
------------------------------
End of VACList-Digest #187
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