!!!!!!!!OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "cid830" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!LEGO GO MY EGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Smart" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > JMJM, My comments are imbedded below: > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺å¦ç²¾æ > > <chan.jmjm@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Bill, I admire your commitment and passion. I have already > > stated > > > that it is not my focus to discuss this subject. Since you are > > > interested, let us continue. > > > > > > First of all, I always used the following words, "I suspect, I > > could be > > > limited in my scope, I am incomplete..." that Zen is incomplete. > > Yet > > > you insisted and defended that you are right. Once any of us > begin > > to > > > defend a position, we become partial and incomplete. We are > driven > > by a > > > singular vision - ego driven. The way you insisted illustrate > the > > fact > > > you are not THIS. :-) > > You bring up an important point and I am happy to comment on it. > > I've had others in the past tell me they think my posting is > > egotistical or authoritarian-sounding. > > > > All of my posts are my opinions. Sometimes I include that very > > phrase as a caveat emptor, but sometimes I don't. Sometimes I > > use 'IMNSHO' as a shorthand which means 'in my not-so-humble > > opinion'. I like being positive when I state something, as opposed > > to pussy-footing around about things, sounding unsure. In fact, I > > SUSPECT that a lot of your understated style comes from a desire to > > protect your ego. You don't want to state anything definitely > > because you are afraid someone will think you're wrong or you might > > have to change it someday because you are not really confident > about > > what you're saying. But whether I state it specifically or not, > all > > my posts are my opinions. My opinions are unlimited and complete > > unless I specifically state otherwise. If I'm suspecting or > guessing > > or supposing, I'll state that. If I don't know something, I'll > state > > that also. If I post anything that is not my opinion I'll cite a > > source. > > > > I think you are confusing my being direct and sure of what I am > > posting (my opinions), with being egotistical. I don't think my > > opinions are any more important than yours, but I also don't think > my > > opinions are any less important than Buddha's or anything written > in > > a Sutra. They're my opinions which have come from my experiences. > > My opinions are also not sacrosanct and can be modified or even > > completely discarded as I have new experiences. On most of the > > fundamental areas we discuss here, however, I rarely have had > > occasion to change my opinion, but often do find and adapt to > better > > ways of expressing my opinion. > > > > > Second of all, everyone knows Chan was passed to Japan to become > > Zen 700 > > > years later. > > I know that. I also know Bodhidarma reportedly brought Chan to > China > > from India. So what? A lineage doesn't necessarily mean the older > > or prior forms are somehow better or more pure than the newer forms > > as you are insinuating. Actually, no one brought or transported > zen > > anywhere. What they did bring was a method to realize (re- realize, > > really) only THIS. > > > > > Third of all, what is maya? Everything in this world is Chan. > > Chan is > > > One. One is all including maya if there is such a thing. > > This is an ingenious question and I think beneath your usual high- > > level postings. Maya is worldly illusion, you know that as well as > I > > do. Chan is maya. Zen is maya. There is only THIS. I do > however, > > as you do, talk about zen and Chan and good and bad and hot and > cold > > and lot of other maya all the time. All this talking and posting > is > > not zen and certainly is not THIS. It is only talking about zen > and > > talking about THIS - no more. > > > > > Fourth of all, Chan uses terms of Buddhism and Taoism for > > > communication. That's all. > > That's pretty much what I do and said in the paragraph above, > except > > sometimes I try to avoid using Buddhist terms so as not to add to > the > > confusion most people have that zen and Buddhism are inextricably > > linked. They are not. (Or maybe I should say 'Golly gee, I could > be > > wrong, but I speculate sometimes, but am not really sure, that zen > > and Buddhism may not be linked - but then again maybe they are.') > > > > > Fifth of all, what is THIS? Can you explain? In Chan, THIS is the > > > current flowing of life force, not form, not feelings good. It > is > > THIS > > > LIFE FORCE that is everything. > > No, I can't explain what THIS is, that's why I use the term THIS. > > THIS is not the 'current flowing of life force' which I understand > as > > Tao, because that is maya. 'THIS' is just THIS. Nothing more. > Some > > have called it MU, or THREE POUNDS OF FLAX, or DRIED SHIT ON A > > STICK. It's just THIS! > > > > > Most importantly, no one is WRONG. Only our judgmental mind. > > I agree with you that using the word 'wrong' with you (or anyone) > > when talking about their opinions (as opposed to a misquote or > > misstatement of historical facts) is not a helpful practice. When > I > > say you're 'wrong', what I mean is my opinion is different than > your > > opinion. I will re-state the main points in my original post as > > follows: > > - JMJM's opinion that zen (as compared with Chan) does not have a > > spiritual component is the same as my opinion. I however think > > that's a good quality since spirituality is maya (illusion). > > - JMJM's opinion that zen is 'just a mind exercise' is not the > > opinion I hold. My oh so humble opinion is that zen is not an > > exercise of the mind, zen is realizing that mind and all its > products > > are maya (illusions), and that when all maya are eliminated, or at > > least suspended, there is only THIS. > > > > I think you're getting a little to hung up on words (wrong) here > and > > taking it a little too personal. > > > > > In conclusion, you typify the fact Zen is incomplete because it > > lacks > > > the connection to the True Form or Final Form. :-) > > Seventh of all...I am not a type, I am Bill! Zen is maya. You are > > not a type (Chan practicioner and advocate), you are JMJM. True > Form > > is maya. Final Form is maya. Only THIS! > > > > > Fun? > > No, disappointing. > > > > ...Bill! > > >
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