Fitness63, Bill, JM et al,

Just because we recognize that what is is illusion doesn't mean we don't have to deal with it, or that it isn't part of the THIS (in Bill's terminology). The problem is when we get involved in conceptualizing spirituality (gods, demons, spirits etc.) and get distracted from direct experience.

As to JM's discussion of chi, that is something many don't understand. The concept is very simple and one of direct experience, chi has nothing to do with spirituality per se. If one closes one's eyes and becomes aware of the internal feeling of the various parts of one's body, and then of the internal feeling of one's whole body, that is what is called the energy body. That is the most direct experience there is, and that feeling is a feeling of energy, the entire energy body is simply one's chi. One's actual being is simply chi, nothing more, nothing less. It is the ontological energy of one's existence. On the other hand, one's material body is a cognitive construct, in that sense the material body is an illusion, it is empty form filled with chi which is the real body. It is the chi that is real since that is one's direct experience.

Once this is recognized it is quite easy to find one can exercise some degree of control over the flow of chi within one's energy body. Chi can be moved by the mind, the breath, and by the hands. One can also move another person's chi to some extent with the hands fairly easily. Since chi is simply OE, it is also the substance of all of reality and constantly flows into and out of the energy body as one interacts with the 'external world'. Once this basic principle is grasped one can go much further either in martial arts, qi gong, feng shui (a lot of hype though in that though the basic principle is sound), and various meditations.

So spirituality in the sense of beliefs in gods, spirits, demons, ghosts, parapsychology etc. is a distraction from realization since such beliefs occupy the mind as thoughts. Zen neither believes or disbelieves in such things. If they should appear, fine, but most likely that will be just another illusion instead.

Chi, on the other hand, is the very substance of direct experience. Chi is reality. One does have some control over chi, but only as one force among many other forces. There is also a lot of hype about the degree of chi control and chi power claimed by some.


On Sep 7, 2008, at 3:23 PM, Fitness63 wrote:

From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - Each of us can live in the ZONE 24/7, by
abandoning our mind, enhance our spirituality, using chi as the medium to
sync to the universal consciousness.>

According to some, the CHI is maya and there is nothing but JUST THIS which
is lurching forward experiencing reality directly?

I guess what I do not understand is that you seem to say that spirituality, karma, dharma are all part of the Chan process while Edgar, Bill, and Mike seem to say that spirituality is an illusion along with everything else.

It is confusing.

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