Here! Here! Mike. I had the same reaction when I read his post. Many of 
these people had worked a disciplined practice for years b4 reaching a 
breakthrough. And some will never experience it at all (in this 
lifetime). And I understand your perspective of how through these years 
of dedication and training that when they experience this satori 
breakthrough they will be able to live in that state. There are 
different schools of thought on that though, as far as living in a 
constant state of awareness, or experiencing mini-"breakthroughs" along 
the way. 


--- In, mike brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Edgar,
> Again, in an ultimate sense I agree with you. Most satori experiences 
occur off the mat (we cannot determine when they happen so they are a 
kind of 'Grace', if you like), but for most people these experiences 
are usually preceded by many years of zazen and rarely occur 
independently from it (especially in relation to the past Zen masters). 
In fact, I would add that to receive a satori like experience without 
already practicing zazen could be detrimental to one's spiritual growth 
because you would probably not have the 'tools' to be able to integrate 
the experience into your daily life. I don't completely advocate 
the 'aching legs' school of Zen Buddhism (see Alan Watts), but as Bill 
says, I don't see any better way to recognising our inherent 
enlightenment. Mike.


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