Bill,

Great examples!

Edgar


On Sep 17, 2008, at 10:33 AM, Bill Smart wrote:

Even within Japanese Zen Buddhism there are references to
the 'sudden' and 'gradual' schools. Soto emphasises shikantaza
(clear mind) and Renzai empahsises koans. (Both schools by the way
use both techniques.)

My teacher, whose lineage was from both Soto and Renzai schools, told
me that realizing kensho in Soto was like walking around in a gentle
rain for days and days, and then suddenly realizing you were wet,
soaked through and through. Renzai kensho was like being
unexpectedly pushed into a swimming pool. You come up sputtering and
flailing around wondering what just happened!

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Chris,
>
> Yes, you are referring to the 'sudden' versus the 'gradual'
schools,
> which was a major source of argument and bickering among the
Chinese
> Chan sects with each claiming their way was best.
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
> On Sep 16, 2008, at 11:39 PM, cid830 wrote:
>
> > Here! Here! Mike. I had the same reaction when I read his post.
> > Many of
> > these people had worked a disciplined practice for years b4
reaching a
> > breakthrough. And some will never experience it at all (in this
> > lifetime). And I understand your perspective of how through
these
> > years
> > of dedication and training that when they experience this satori
> > breakthrough they will be able to live in that state. There are
> > different schools of thought on that though, as far as living in a
> > constant state of awareness, or experiencing mini-
"breakthroughs"
> > along
> > the way.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Chris
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Edgar,
> > > Again, in an ultimate sense I agree with you. Most satori
> > experiences
> > occur off the mat (we cannot determine when they happen so they
are a
> > kind of 'Grace', if you like), but for most people these
experiences
> > are usually preceded by many years of zazen and rarely occur
> > independently from it (especially in relation to the past Zen
> > masters).
> > In fact, I would add that to receive a satori like experience
without
> > already practicing zazen could be detrimental to one's spiritual
> > growth
> > because you would probably not have the 'tools' to be able to
> > integrate
> > the experience into your daily life. I don't completely advocate
> > the 'aching legs' school of Zen Buddhism (see Alan Watts), but as
Bill
> > says, I don't see any better way to recognising our inherent
> > enlightenment. Mike.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>




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