Yes, Chinese Chan are even much more diverse and different in practice 
and teaching.  For instance, our "at-home practice" school, are not 
recognized by those with a temple, shaving heads and robe wearing.  :-)

Edgar Owen wrote:
> Chris,
> Yes, you are referring to the 'sudden' versus the 'gradual' schools, 
> which was a major source of argument and bickering among the Chinese 
> Chan sects with each claiming their way was best.
> Edgar
> On Sep 16, 2008, at 11:39 PM, cid830 wrote:
>> Here! Here! Mike. I had the same reaction when I read his post. Many of 
>> these people had worked a disciplined practice for years b4 reaching a 
>> breakthrough. And some will never experience it at all (in this 
>> lifetime). And I understand your perspective of how through these years 
>> of dedication and training that when they experience this satori 
>> breakthrough they will be able to live in that state. There are 
>> different schools of thought on that though, as far as living in a 
>> constant state of awareness, or experiencing mini-"breakthroughs" along 
>> the way. 
>> Thanks,
>> Chris
>> --- In 
>> <>, mike brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Edgar,
>> > Again, in an ultimate sense I agree with you. Most satori experiences
>> occur off the mat (we cannot determine when they happen so they are a 
>> kind of 'Grace', if you like), but for most people these experiences 
>> are usually preceded by many years of zazen and rarely occur 
>> independently from it (especially in relation to the past Zen masters). 
>> In fact, I would add that to receive a satori like experience without 
>> already practicing zazen could be detrimental to one's spiritual growth
>> because you would probably not have the 'tools' to be able to integrate 
>> the experience into your daily life. I don't completely advocate 
>> the 'aching legs' school of Zen Buddhism (see Alan Watts), but as Bill 
>> says, I don't see any better way to recognising our inherent 
>> enlightenment. Mike.
>> > 


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