Bill,
 
I think I know what you believe. I pretended to be shocked because after I 
mentioned all kinds of alternatives to the karma system, you said all of those 
IS you. You should have said those are selectively you. 
 
Anthony

--- On Mon, 22/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 10:10 AM


  



Anthony,

You're easily shocked!

You've mixed two classes of religions here: Buddhism that teaches karma and the 
family of monotheistic religions (Judaism/Christianity/Islam) who teach the 
belief in one god (Jehovah/God/Allah).

In Buddhism karma is a spiritual version of cause-and-effect. I don't think 
Buddhists believe karma can ever be 'invalidated'. I think the best they can do 
is recognize, accept and work through it.

In the monotheistic religions the functional equivalent of karma is the belief 
in sin and punishment. Again, under their precepts I think there is no way to 
'invalidate' this cause-and-effect chain, but each of the religions have 
different ways to deal with it. In Judaism and Islam you can ameliorate sin and 
punishment with good deeds. Christianity also allows for this but also offers 
several versions of a 'Get Out Of Jail Free' card. The ones that immediately 
come to mind are baptism, being saved (accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior) 
and repentance (asking forgiveness for your sins). Any one of these will wipe 
your sin/punishment slate clean.

Zen, at least the zen I practice, is not a religion so it doesn't have any set 
definitions or set procedures for manipulating your life (or at least the 
illusion of your life). Zen, the way I practice it, does not recognize karma or 
sin in that these things are illusory - just concepts. So it doesn't have a 
need for a set of actions to 'invalidate' them. I guess you could say the zen I 
practice 'invalidates' karma and sin/punishment by recognizing them as illusory.

Are you still shocked?

...Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:05 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book

Bill,

I am shocked that you think karma can be invalidated by worshipping God!

Anthony

--- On Sat, 20/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 20 November, 2010, 9:23 AM

Anthony,

That’s me!

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 5:13 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book

Chris,

You are not alone. We see the world the way it is because many don't believe in 
karma, believe it can be invalidated one way or the other, or don't bother to 
think about it at all.

Anthony

--- On Fri, 19/11/10, ChrisAustinLane <ch...@austin-lane.net> wrote:

From: ChrisAustinLane <ch...@austin-lane.net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
To: "Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com" <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com" <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 9:28 AM

On Nov 18, 2010, at 16:23, Anthony Wu <wu...@yahoo.com.sg> wrote:

> Your action has immediate consequences, as well as those afterwards.

Worrying about those long term effects strikes me as being like worrying about 
what is the outcome of history or
life. Who knows. 

(Worrying here in the sense of putting your full non-dual attention on them; 
obviously if you are engaged in some task, you will have to figure out your 
estimate of the effects of various courses of action; use the compostable paper 
cup or bring a ceramic mug that will eventually break and go into landfill; get 
this degree to work in that field. ). 

I can think that the effects of a lifetime of habitual meanness will be 
severer, but I find for myself that habitual meanness can only be avoided one 
burning angry moment at a time. 

Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

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