RE: The situation at Fukushima appears to be deteriorating
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Re: Universal Programming
On Sunday, March 16, 2014 1:10:19 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Mar 2014, at 17:31, meekerdb wrote: On 3/16/2014 12:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: That's correct, but we assume usually classical quantum mechanics. Then, even if GR digitalizes the access to futures, it seems to me that QM will still provide the rooms for immortality (not necessarily a good news). Then, in such reasoning, QM uses comp, and comp by itself leads to many forms of immortalities, if I can say. But does comp lead to immortality from *every* state? Are there no cul-de-sac worlds? For the ideally correct machine, there is no cul-de-sac world *from the first person point of view. If there isn't already, there needs to be some fiction about Buddhist comp-believers trying to escape immortality. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Universal Programming
On 17 March 2014 13:56, Gabriel Bodeen gabebod...@gmail.com wrote: If there isn't already, there needs to be some fiction about Buddhist comp-believers trying to escape immortality. To quote Wikipedia: In Indian religions, the attainment of nirvana is moksha, liberation from the cycle of rebirth. Not sure if this counts as fiction, though. David -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: The situation at Fukushima appears to be deteriorating
At some point, Pierz, one has to use one's senses. This is part or the scientific endeavor as well. Observe, record, and measure, hopefully in common units, milibars, meters, kilograms, parsecs. But one must observe and try to make sense of things. Just as the oil companies say no, no, no, we pollute nothing, the environmentalists push for a common goal as well. One is driven by greed to lie, the other by a hunger for power-to save the world. Of the two sets of bastards, I have learned to mistrust the environmentalist even more so than the petro kings. On another note, I think you have probably heard of the physical anthropological papers indicating that the paleo-south americans, did an excellent job of sustaining the rain forests, by simply doing what was in their interests. Damming streams using logs and boulders, and mud, removing natural dams in the uplands by digging using tree branches, crude shovels, their hands. Remember Paul Ehrlich the population biologist who wrote The Population Bomb, and made dramatic extinction scenarios? His scenarios seem to be stimulus-response in their inception/purpose. Get the lemmings to jump to the tune of government control (by the ideologically correct party), because we don't want the world do die, do we? Stimulus-response. If even simple peoples can save the rainforest for their own harvestings, which they did, then a motorized culture like our own can do even better, given the technology and the incentive. We don't see, round the world, nations elites, for their own self-interests, demanding setting up artificial reefs and dams to block incoming sea. We don't see a rush to make clean power a priority, and there's no sense of panic with the worlds elites, and the politicians they fund, to do anything like this at all. The billionaires in China, Russia, the US, Europe, everywhere are not behaving as they were trying to save their asses, and assets. They are real good at doing this, far better than we posters on this mailing group. I am more interested in generating workable ideas on what to do for species extinction, energy, AGW, then arguing about faulty green ideology. So, lets go with the Green ideology that its doom city today, now what do we do? This is where its gets interesting, because the emails then become about technical problem solving and not dictatorship-plutocracy worship. WHA?? You think that? Based on what analysis? I imagine that you, like me, live in a metropolis where in the course of a day you are exposed to about three or four animal species: humans, your cat, and the sparrow that just flew past your window. So you look out your window and go, Oh business as usual! Cats aren't extinct yet! Extinction rate looks pretty normal to me. But consider the Amazon, where there are many thousands of species of organism living in every tree. -Original Message- From: Pierz pier...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:41 am Subject: Re: The situation at Fukushima appears to be deteriorating On Wednesday, March 12, 2014 3:55:41 AM UTC+11, spudb...@aol.com wrote: I think that if extinction rates was 10k, you would already see silent spring round the globe. WHA?? You think that? Based on what analysis? I imagine that you, like me, live in a metropolis where in the course of a day you are exposed to about three or four animal species: humans, your cat, and the sparrow that just flew past your window. So you look out your window and go, Oh business as usual! Cats aren't extinct yet! Extinction rate looks pretty normal to me. But consider the Amazon, where there are many thousands of species of organism living in every tree. The Amazon was deforested in the early 2000s at a rate of 22,000 square kms a year. You may not have noticed the species extinctions from your office. But of course, you should trust your eyes, not the alarmist proclamations of those evil greenies. Then consider that the global extinction rate is about 0.01% per annum (according to WWF, bunch of power-hungry communists that they are). If the number of species on the planet is at the upper end of estimates, then that means about 10,000 species a year are going extinct. That's about 10,000 times the background rate. The lower estimate puts it at about 1000x the background rate. And you're surprised by that? Done any travelling lately? The world is a parking lot. I saw the Astrolabe Reef in Fiji in the 80s when I was 14, and it was the most beautiful, spectacular, abundant thing I've ever seen. I saw it again two years ago and the change defied belief. People were swimming about going ooh aah, but they had no idea what it had been before. It was a paradise. I don't need to be told by an expert that bioversity is under massive threat. It's plain as day the moment I leave my little human monoculture. And then you come up with a line about 'dur fuhrer' (sic),
Re: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization
Yes, they do have a paper that eating resources will doom us. They also claimed that they had proof of Martian life in 1996 that has since been disregarded. I am guessing that the report had nothing to say about the substitution of easily, depleted resources being replaced with different plentiful resources, or technological innovation replacing heavy dependence on the depletable. Copper telecommunications cable used to be da bomb for long range propagation of signals, but in the last 50 years, fibre optics sort of has been overtaking the former use of copper. Original Message- From: Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Mar 16, 2014 7:11 am Subject: Re: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization Liz, How is going to another planet and screwing that one up too going to help. The problem is not astronomical, it's human nature. The very success of humans as a species depended on the ruthless exploitation of nature and repression of competition. But those exact same aspects of human nature are what is now destroying our planet's ecosystem and likely ourselves. Can we change human nature? Unlikely I fear... Edgar On Saturday, March 15, 2014 9:58:38 PM UTC-4, Liz R wrote: If we could just get away from one planet ... but the difficulty is, well, astronomical. Before now we could always leave the place where disaster struck, move from the valley where the soil was full of salt or whatever, start again with a fresh load of resources. I can't see us doing that this time, though. On 16 March 2014 14:32, ghi...@gmail.com wrote: On Saturday, March 15, 2014 11:02:31 PM UTC, Liz R wrote: Oh, and once this happens, that will be it for humanity, of course, because we can't restart civilisation with no easily accessible fuel sources. So we'll stay in the middle ages until a passing comet gets us (or similar). This does of course explain why SETI hasn't found anything. Hell of a way to prove a theory though. Earlier collapses where small and local, but almost nothing ever survived. The bigger the progress, the great the surge, the more the feedback to yet more progress, the steeper the exponential dimensional growth of the potentiality and the sophistication. But the complexity of the problems rises exponentially to for linear steps. The progress has a lifespan, and the lifespan...the life span is exponential as per the extents of the fundamental progress and breakthrough. But in thye end the progress starts to slow away from the exponential, and the result is unhandled problems, which diminish the overall potential of the system, thus progress dimishes at a faster rate, and the problems and complexities start to run ahead. How far those problems and complexities run ahead before the collapse, is the scale of the catastrophe. How fare it gets is about energy. Fat...how much capacity has a society or a people accumulated, and how recklessly and destructively it is now being spent, and who controls the process now, and what is in their nature. The West and rest amassed unbelievable excess energy, in prosperity, productivity, efficiency, technology, science. Now it is being spent at a rate that also goes up exponentially. We just don't see that because we don't understand the nature of energy, so we only see a partial view of it the part we do understand. But the energy compared to the biggest collapse on this dynamic before us, is like the Sun to the Moon. Our energy is feeding into the trap and it grows bigger and bigger...it's huge now. yet we still have more to put it. There isn't going to be another day for the human dream. There's one way, and that's to save this day. But it's a window held open by as little as a single thread. The reversal is a reversal of everything, of ideas, of potentials, of ideologies, of minds. Everything that was the most promising and good becomes the worst of the most destructive and foul. Nothing is the right vehicle for that turnaround. So the nature of the challenge is something that becomes and evolves from within itself, does not ask for permission or explain or persuade, just attaches, extracts, realigns and corrects. It's a process that would need to be a 2nd scientific revolution, a revolution of economics, of society, of strategy and of mind. This is the theory that is needed. Not one that goes into a 'paper' and asks to be read and loved and adopted by a world gone hive. But a theory directly existential, that becomes an evolutionof strategy that gets it right, everything. So has time to evolve, and solves for evolution within itself, and for a consciousness such that it's an extension of us, and between us, more than us, but no more than any one of us. A consciousness can turn hive, like everything else. There's a right way to evolve it and up to an infinity of degree by which to get
Re: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization
An excellent piece of postmarxist (marxism rephrased as sociological science) by the church of progressivism. Unless the budget of the NASA and specially these experts is increased and a change in global politics and another international bureau of world engineers is created overcoming democratic control. Of course it must be headed by these experts 2014-03-15 13:46 GMT+01:00 Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net: All, this seems like a very reasonable scenario and is in line with my thinking.. Edgar http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/mar/14/nasa-civilisation-irreversible-collapse-study-scientists NASA-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'? Natural and social scientists develop new model of how 'perfect storm' of crises could unravel global system [image: This NASA Earth Observatory released on] This Nasa Earth Observatory image shows a storm system circling around an area of extreme low pressure in 2010, which many scientists attribute to climate change. Photograph: AFP/Getty Images A new study sponsored by Nasa's Goddard Space Flight Center has highlighted the prospect that global industrial civilisation could collapse in coming decades due to unsustainable resource exploitation and increasingly unequal wealth distribution. Noting that warnings of 'collapse' are often seen to be fringe or controversial, the study attempts to make sense of compelling historical data showing that the process of rise-and-collapse is actually a recurrent cycle found throughout history. Cases of severe civilisational disruption due to precipitous collapse - often lasting centuries - have been quite common. The research project is based on a new cross-disciplinary 'Human And Nature DYnamical' (HANDY) model, led by applied mathematician Safa Motesharri of the US National Science Foundation-supported National Socio-Environmental Synthesis Center http://www.sesync.org/, in association with a team of natural and social scientists. The study based on the HANDY model has been accepted for publication in the peer-reviewed Elsevier journal, Ecological Economics. It finds that according to the historical record even advanced, complex civilisations are susceptible to collapse, raising questions about the sustainability of modern civilisation: The fall of the Roman Empire, and the equally (if not more) advanced Han, Mauryan, and Gupta Empires, as well as so many advanced Mesopotamian Empires, are all testimony to the fact that advanced, sophisticated, complex, and creative civilizations can be both fragile and impermanent. By investigating the human-nature dynamics of these past cases of collapse, the project identifies the most salient interrelated factors which explain civilisational decline, and which may help determine the risk of collapse today: namely, Population, Climate, Water, Agriculture, and Energy http://www.theguardian.com/environment/energy. These factors can lead to collapse when they converge to generate two crucial social features: the stretching of resources due to the strain placed on the ecological carrying capacity; and the economic stratification of society into Elites [rich] and Masses (or Commoners) [poor] These social phenomena have played a central role in the character or in the process of the collapse, in all such cases over the last five thousand years. Currently, high levels of economic stratification are linked directly to overconsumption of resources, with Elites based largely in industrialised countries responsible for both: ... accumulated surplus is not evenly distributed throughout society, but rather has been controlled by an elite. The mass of the population, while producing the wealth, is only allocated a small portion of it by elites, usually at or just above subsistence levels. The study challenges those who argue that technology will resolve these challenges by increasing efficiency: Technological change can raise the efficiency of resource use, but it also tends to raise both per capita resource consumption and the scale of resource extraction, so that, absent policy effects, the increases in consumption often compensate for the increased efficiency of resource use. Productivity increases in agriculture and industry over the last two centuries has come from increased (rather than decreased) resource throughput, despite dramatic efficiency gains over the same period. Modelling a range of different scenarios, Motesharri and his colleagues conclude that under conditions closely reflecting the reality of the world today... we find that collapse is difficult to avoid. In the first of these scenarios, civilisation: appears to be on a sustainable path for quite a long time, but even using an optimal depletion rate and starting with a very small number of Elites, the Elites eventually consume too much, resulting in a famine among Commoners that
Re: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization
My only doubt is how long it will take to convert this discussion list, once devoted to science and (some) philosophy, into a pure mambo-jambo babble of left liberals new agers and ecoloalarmists among others 2014-03-17 16:48 GMT+01:00 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com: An excellent piece of postmarxist (marxism rephrased as sociological science) by the church of progressivism. Unless the budget of the NASA and specially these experts is increased and a change in global politics and another international bureau of world engineers is created overcoming democratic control. Of course it must be headed by these experts 2014-03-15 13:46 GMT+01:00 Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net: All, this seems like a very reasonable scenario and is in line with my thinking.. Edgar http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/mar/14/nasa-civilisation-irreversible-collapse-study-scientists NASA-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'? Natural and social scientists develop new model of how 'perfect storm' of crises could unravel global system [image: This NASA Earth Observatory released on] This Nasa Earth Observatory image shows a storm system circling around an area of extreme low pressure in 2010, which many scientists attribute to climate change. Photograph: AFP/Getty Images A new study sponsored by Nasa's Goddard Space Flight Center has highlighted the prospect that global industrial civilisation could collapse in coming decades due to unsustainable resource exploitation and increasingly unequal wealth distribution. Noting that warnings of 'collapse' are often seen to be fringe or controversial, the study attempts to make sense of compelling historical data showing that the process of rise-and-collapse is actually a recurrent cycle found throughout history. Cases of severe civilisational disruption due to precipitous collapse - often lasting centuries - have been quite common. The research project is based on a new cross-disciplinary 'Human And Nature DYnamical' (HANDY) model, led by applied mathematician Safa Motesharri of the US National Science Foundation-supported National Socio-Environmental Synthesis Center http://www.sesync.org/, in association with a team of natural and social scientists. The study based on the HANDY model has been accepted for publication in the peer-reviewed Elsevier journal, Ecological Economics. It finds that according to the historical record even advanced, complex civilisations are susceptible to collapse, raising questions about the sustainability of modern civilisation: The fall of the Roman Empire, and the equally (if not more) advanced Han, Mauryan, and Gupta Empires, as well as so many advanced Mesopotamian Empires, are all testimony to the fact that advanced, sophisticated, complex, and creative civilizations can be both fragile and impermanent. By investigating the human-nature dynamics of these past cases of collapse, the project identifies the most salient interrelated factors which explain civilisational decline, and which may help determine the risk of collapse today: namely, Population, Climate, Water, Agriculture, and Energy http://www.theguardian.com/environment/energy. These factors can lead to collapse when they converge to generate two crucial social features: the stretching of resources due to the strain placed on the ecological carrying capacity; and the economic stratification of society into Elites [rich] and Masses (or Commoners) [poor] These social phenomena have played a central role in the character or in the process of the collapse, in all such cases over the last five thousand years. Currently, high levels of economic stratification are linked directly to overconsumption of resources, with Elites based largely in industrialised countries responsible for both: ... accumulated surplus is not evenly distributed throughout society, but rather has been controlled by an elite. The mass of the population, while producing the wealth, is only allocated a small portion of it by elites, usually at or just above subsistence levels. The study challenges those who argue that technology will resolve these challenges by increasing efficiency: Technological change can raise the efficiency of resource use, but it also tends to raise both per capita resource consumption and the scale of resource extraction, so that, absent policy effects, the increases in consumption often compensate for the increased efficiency of resource use. Productivity increases in agriculture and industry over the last two centuries has come from increased (rather than decreased) resource throughput, despite dramatic efficiency gains over the same period. Modelling a range of different scenarios, Motesharri and his colleagues conclude that under conditions closely reflecting the reality of the world today... we find that collapse is difficult to avoid. In
Re: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization
Personally, I am more in fear of nuclear war then I am about environmental devastation. This is not to say the natural world is not in big trouble because of human encroachment, but for Maslows hierarchy of needs, my fear is that humans disappear, and the weeds and rats and insects take over, and a great silence descends on the radio waves emanating from the spiral galaxy we inhabit. My fear is that so many greens seem attuned with die-off so as to preserve the natural order, which humans disrupt. This is not something this primate can tolerate. -Original Message- From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Mon, Mar 17, 2014 11:48 am Subject: Re: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization An excellent piece of postmarxist (marxism rephrased as sociological science) by the church of progressivism. Unless the budget of the NASA and specially these experts is increased and a change in global politics and another international bureau of world engineers is created overcoming democratic control. Of course it must be headed by these experts 2014-03-15 13:46 GMT+01:00 Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net: All, this seems like a very reasonable scenario and is in line with my thinking.. Edgar http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/mar/14/nasa-civilisation-irreversible-collapse-study-scientists NASA-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'? Natural and social scientists develop new model of how 'perfect storm' of crises could unravel global system This Nasa Earth Observatory image shows a storm system circling around an area of extreme low pressure in 2010, which many scientists attribute to climate change. Photograph: AFP/Getty Images A new study sponsored by Nasa's Goddard Space Flight Center has highlighted the prospect that global industrial civilisation could collapse in coming decades due to unsustainable resource exploitation and increasingly unequal wealth distribution. Noting that warnings of 'collapse' are often seen to be fringe or controversial, the study attempts to make sense of compelling historical data showing that the process of rise-and-collapse is actually a recurrent cycle found throughout history. Cases of severe civilisational disruption due to precipitous collapse - often lasting centuries - have been quite common. The research project is based on a new cross-disciplinary 'Human And Nature DYnamical' (HANDY) model, led by applied mathematician Safa Motesharri of the US National Science Foundation-supported National Socio-Environmental Synthesis Center, in association with a team of natural and social scientists. The study based on the HANDY model has been accepted for publication in the peer-reviewed Elsevier journal, Ecological Economics. It finds that according to the historical record even advanced, complex civilisations are susceptible to collapse, raising questions about the sustainability of modern civilisation: The fall of the Roman Empire, and the equally (if not more) advanced Han, Mauryan, and Gupta Empires, as well as so many advanced Mesopotamian Empires, are all testimony to the fact that advanced, sophisticated, complex, and creative civilizations can be both fragile and impermanent. By investigating the human-nature dynamics of these past cases of collapse, the project identifies the most salient interrelated factors which explain civilisational decline, and which may help determine the risk of collapse today: namely, Population, Climate, Water, Agriculture, and Energy. These factors can lead to collapse when they converge to generate two crucial social features: the stretching of resources due to the strain placed on the ecological carrying capacity; and the economic stratification of society into Elites [rich] and Masses (or Commoners) [poor] These social phenomena have played a central role in the character or in the process of the collapse, in all such cases over the last five thousand years. Currently, high levels of economic stratification are linked directly to overconsumption of resources, with Elites based largely in industrialised countries responsible for both: ... accumulated surplus is not evenly distributed throughout society, but rather has been controlled by an elite. The mass of the population, while producing the wealth, is only allocated a small portion of it by elites, usually at or just above subsistence levels. The study challenges those who argue that technology will resolve these challenges by increasing efficiency: Technological change can raise the efficiency of resource use, but it also tends to raise both per capita resource consumption and the scale of resource extraction, so that, absent policy effects, the increases in consumption often compensate for the increased efficiency of resource use.
Re: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization
Well, to get on track, we would need to assert trade offs, fixes, and solutions, rather than promote mere complaint. This goes for myself, but few seem to feel this way. If we want a clean green Earth, then problem solving is essential. In that attempt to problem solve, we may come up with a decent idea, or promote one we have heard of. -Original Message- From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Mon, Mar 17, 2014 11:53 am Subject: Re: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization My only doubt is how long it will take to convert this discussion list, once devoted to science and (some) philosophy, into a pure mambo-jambo babble of left liberals new agers and ecoloalarmists among others 2014-03-17 16:48 GMT+01:00 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com: An excellent piece of postmarxist (marxism rephrased as sociological science) by the church of progressivism. Unless the budget of the NASA and specially these experts is increased and a change in global politics and another international bureau of world engineers is created overcoming democratic control. Of course it must be headed by these experts 2014-03-15 13:46 GMT+01:00 Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net: All, this seems like a very reasonable scenario and is in line with my thinking.. Edgar http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/mar/14/nasa-civilisation-irreversible-collapse-study-scientists NASA-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'? Natural and social scientists develop new model of how 'perfect storm' of crises could unravel global system This Nasa Earth Observatory image shows a storm system circling around an area of extreme low pressure in 2010, which many scientists attribute to climate change. Photograph: AFP/Getty Images A new study sponsored by Nasa's Goddard Space Flight Center has highlighted the prospect that global industrial civilisation could collapse in coming decades due to unsustainable resource exploitation and increasingly unequal wealth distribution. Noting that warnings of 'collapse' are often seen to be fringe or controversial, the study attempts to make sense of compelling historical data showing that the process of rise-and-collapse is actually a recurrent cycle found throughout history. Cases of severe civilisational disruption due to precipitous collapse - often lasting centuries - have been quite common. The research project is based on a new cross-disciplinary 'Human And Nature DYnamical' (HANDY) model, led by applied mathematician Safa Motesharri of the US National Science Foundation-supported National Socio-Environmental Synthesis Center, in association with a team of natural and social scientists. The study based on the HANDY model has been accepted for publication in the peer-reviewed Elsevier journal, Ecological Economics. It finds that according to the historical record even advanced, complex civilisations are susceptible to collapse, raising questions about the sustainability of modern civilisation: The fall of the Roman Empire, and the equally (if not more) advanced Han, Mauryan, and Gupta Empires, as well as so many advanced Mesopotamian Empires, are all testimony to the fact that advanced, sophisticated, complex, and creative civilizations can be both fragile and impermanent. By investigating the human-nature dynamics of these past cases of collapse, the project identifies the most salient interrelated factors which explain civilisational decline, and which may help determine the risk of collapse today: namely, Population, Climate, Water, Agriculture, and Energy. These factors can lead to collapse when they converge to generate two crucial social features: the stretching of resources due to the strain placed on the ecological carrying capacity; and the economic stratification of society into Elites [rich] and Masses (or Commoners) [poor] These social phenomena have played a central role in the character or in the process of the collapse, in all such cases over the last five thousand years. Currently, high levels of economic stratification are linked directly to overconsumption of resources, with Elites based largely in industrialised countries responsible for both: ... accumulated surplus is not evenly distributed throughout society, but rather has been controlled by an elite. The mass of the population, while producing the wealth, is only allocated a small portion of it by elites, usually at or just above subsistence levels. The study challenges those who argue that technology will resolve these challenges by increasing efficiency: Technological change can raise the efficiency of resource use, but it also tends to raise both per capita resource consumption and the scale of resource extraction, so that, absent policy effects, the increases in consumption
Re: Video of VCR
On 16 Mar 2014, at 19:30, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Sunday, March 16, 2014 12:05:50 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Mar 2014, at 13:52, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Sunday, March 16, 2014 3:41:30 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Mar 2014, at 05:17, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Saturday, March 15, 2014 7:00:48 PM UTC-4, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Craig, Hmmm, let me see. If I just take my eye out of its socket and turn it around then I guess by your theory I'd have self awareness? It's not my theory, but does computationalism provide a reason why your eye looking in the mirror doesn't have self-awareness? The mirror does not compute. How do you know you're not being racist against mirrors? Did I ever say something bad about mirror? You're saying they don't compute. Nice you defend this as a compliment! Just as I say your sun in law doesn't appreciate the flavor of food. The difference is that my sun in law pretend to appreciate food. The mirror does not pretend to compute. The expression a mirror compute does not make much sense. There is category error here. We can make too much sense of such expression. I have no clue they are intensional agent, but if they ask I will oblige. If you hold up a sign that says 'I am an intensional agent' in backward letters, you will see that they turn them around so you can see what they are. Mirror will also evolves, and the intelligent digital mirror can anticipate on you, or show you with another cut, or some brain scan. You know that I assume comp, so it should just be obvious to you that mirror have not the ability of universal computation. I thought that you are agnostic about comp. ? Yes, that is why I make clear that I assume it. It is my working theory. I am agnostic indeed. How do you know that the mirror doesn't have the ability of universal computation though? That expression does not make sense. Maybe they are just very shy about it? Maybe the mirrors of today are just babies? Your analogy flirts with the ridiculous. Even the Dx = Fxx method alone, seen as a control structure, alone, or even some generalization of it, are not Turing universal. Consciousness is the attribute to the first person, it is phenomenal, and there is nothing in a mirror which a priori invites us to such an attribution. The VCR+camera do invite such an attribution though. I tend currently to attribute consciousness at the Turing complete level, and self-consciousness at the Gödel-Löbian one, like when a K4 reasoner becomes when he visits the Knave Knight Island, or when a universal Turing machine develops beliefs in enough induction axioms. Now, if your theory attributes consciousness to a mirror, and not to my sun in law, it will look even less convincing to me, Craig. I don't attribute consciousness to either one, I present the VCR example as a reductio ad absurdum against comp. Straw man. Bruno Craig Craig Bruno Edgar On Saturday, March 15, 2014 6:09:27 PM UTC-4, Craig Weinberg wrote: http://www.jesseengland.net/index.php?/project/vide-uhhh/ Have a look at this quick video (or get the idea from this_) Since the VCR can get video feedback of itself, is there any computational reason why this doesn't count as a degree of self awareness? Would VCRs which have 'seen themselves' in this way have a greater chance of developing that awareness than those which have not? If not, what initial conditions would be necessary for such an awareness to develop in some machines and how would those initial conditions appear? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit
Re: Universal Programming
On 16 Mar 2014, at 22:26, LizR wrote: On 17 March 2014 05:31, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 3/16/2014 12:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: That's correct, but we assume usually classical quantum mechanics. Then, even if GR digitalizes the access to futures, it seems to me that QM will still provide the rooms for immortality (not necessarily a good news). Then, in such reasoning, QM uses comp, and comp by itself leads to many forms of immortalities, if I can say. But does comp lead to immortality from *every* state? Are there no cul-de-sac worlds? If so, is this like saying that the infinite sheaf of computations supporting a given observer moment can't all halt simultaneously? In my answer top Brent, I was alluding to the simple fact that no diary can contain the statement I am dead. To die, in some absolute sense, does not belong to the possible first person experience. But, with comp, the infinities of histories cannot halt simultaneously. That does not really make sense, as the time is an internal construct in each coherent histories. Then it is hard to imagine why they should all halt, and what does that mean, given that they all differentiate all the time. If the time of death of someone is the same in all possible realities, that would be a new and curious law of physics. F=kmM/r^2 Mister X dies at 42. :) Bruno -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
RE: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alberto G. Corona My only doubt is how long it will take to convert this discussion list, once devoted to science and (some) philosophy, into a pure mambo-jambo babble of left liberals new agers and ecoloalarmists among others Perhaps you fail to see how you come across yourself as a true believer. The junk science meme - that you are attempting to color those who you disagree with on ideological grounds was used - and very effectively -- by the big tobacco lobby to obscure the science linking smoking to cancer and create a sense of doubt about that science. It worked for two decades for big tobacco, and the very same cast of characters who pulled this snow job off for big tobacco have now transferred over - en mass -- to become professional climate skeptics.. working for all those Koch brother (and earlier Exxon/Mobile) funded think tanks.. The think tanks where you get your climate facts from. 2014-03-17 16:48 GMT+01:00 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com: An excellent piece of postmarxist (marxism rephrased as sociological science) by the church of progressivism. Unless the budget of the NASA and specially these experts is increased and a change in global politics and another international bureau of world engineers is created overcoming democratic control. Of course it must be headed by these experts 2014-03-15 13:46 GMT+01:00 Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net: All, this seems like a very reasonable scenario and is in line with my thinking.. Edgar http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/mar/14/nasa-civili sation-irreversible-collapse-study-scientists NASA-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'? Natural and social scientists develop new model of how 'perfect storm' of crises could unravel global system This NASA Earth Observatory released on http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2010/11/1/128864 1509988/This-NASA-Earth-Observato-006.jpg This Nasa Earth Observatory image shows a storm system circling around an area of extreme low pressure in 2010, which many scientists attribute to climate change. Photograph: AFP/Getty Images A new study sponsored by Nasa's Goddard Space Flight Center has highlighted the prospect that global industrial civilisation could collapse in coming decades due to unsustainable resource exploitation and increasingly unequal wealth distribution. Noting that warnings of 'collapse' are often seen to be fringe or controversial, the study attempts to make sense of compelling historical data showing that the process of rise-and-collapse is actually a recurrent cycle found throughout history. Cases of severe civilisational disruption due to precipitous collapse - often lasting centuries - have been quite common. The research project is based on a new cross-disciplinary 'Human And Nature DYnamical' (HANDY) model, led by applied mathematician Safa Motesharri of the US National Science Foundation-supported http://www.sesync.org/ National Socio-Environmental Synthesis Center, in association with a team of natural and social scientists. The study based on the HANDY model has been accepted for publication in the peer-reviewed Elsevier journal, Ecological Economics. It finds that according to the historical record even advanced, complex civilisations are susceptible to collapse, raising questions about the sustainability of modern civilisation: The fall of the Roman Empire, and the equally (if not more) advanced Han, Mauryan, and Gupta Empires, as well as so many advanced Mesopotamian Empires, are all testimony to the fact that advanced, sophisticated, complex, and creative civilizations can be both fragile and impermanent. By investigating the human-nature dynamics of these past cases of collapse, the project identifies the most salient interrelated factors which explain civilisational decline, and which may help determine the risk of collapse today: namely, Population, Climate, Water, Agriculture, and http://www.theguardian.com/environment/energy Energy. These factors can lead to collapse when they converge to generate two crucial social features: the stretching of resources due to the strain placed on the ecological carrying capacity; and the economic stratification of society into Elites [rich] and Masses (or Commoners) [poor] These social phenomena have played a central role in the character or in the process of the collapse, in all such cases over the last five thousand years. Currently, high levels of economic stratification are linked directly to overconsumption of resources, with Elites based largely in industrialised countries responsible for both: ... accumulated surplus is not evenly distributed throughout society, but rather has been controlled by an elite. The mass of the population, while producing the wealth, is only
Re: Video of VCR
On Monday, March 17, 2014 12:19:23 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Mar 2014, at 19:30, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Sunday, March 16, 2014 12:05:50 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Mar 2014, at 13:52, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Sunday, March 16, 2014 3:41:30 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Mar 2014, at 05:17, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Saturday, March 15, 2014 7:00:48 PM UTC-4, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Craig, Hmmm, let me see. If I just take my eye out of its socket and turn it around then I guess by your theory I'd have self awareness? It's not my theory, but does computationalism provide a reason why your eye looking in the mirror doesn't have self-awareness? The mirror does not compute. How do you know you're not being racist against mirrors? Did I ever say something bad about mirror? You're saying they don't compute. Nice you defend this as a compliment! Just as I say your sun in law doesn't appreciate the flavor of food. The difference is that my sun in law pretend to appreciate food. The mirror does not pretend to compute. Why not? Any computation which can be output optically can be mirrored. There could be a Turing test in which any computation seen in a mirror that cannot be distinguished from a backward computation on a screen must be considered good enough. The expression a mirror compute does not make much sense. There is category error here. We can make too much sense of such expression. I don't think it is any more of a category error made by comp in attributing feelings to behaviors. Anyways, my example is not a mirror, it is a VCR+camera, as seen in the video. In the video, we see the tape responding visibly to each intrusion on it's 'computation'. If you had a virtual machine that responded in that same way to environmental conditions, would you not say that is evidence of computationalism? I have no clue they are intensional agent, but if they ask I will oblige. If you hold up a sign that says 'I am an intensional agent' in backward letters, you will see that they turn them around so you can see what they are. Mirror will also evolves, and the intelligent digital mirror can anticipate on you, or show you with another cut, or some brain scan. You know that I assume comp, so it should just be obvious to you that mirror have not the ability of universal computation. I thought that you are agnostic about comp. ? Yes, that is why I make clear that I assume it. It is my working theory. I am agnostic indeed. If someone said that they were agnostic about God, would I be wrong in thinking that they do *not* assume God's presence or absence? To say that you assume comp and are agnostic about it would seem to be a contradiction. How do you know that the mirror doesn't have the ability of universal computation though? That expression does not make sense. Suppose I say that mirrors work because they simulate optical environments, and are in fact universal machines...but again, this 'mirror' example is a straw man. The example I'm working with is the VCR+camera. Maybe they are just very shy about it? Maybe the mirrors of today are just babies? Your analogy flirts with the ridiculous. I'm mirroring back to you what my impression is of what you say to me. I say it is obvious that machines are impersonal, cold, mechanical, and that it is obvious that sophisticated technology can be developed that will make them seem less mechanical without actually feeling anything. Your response has been that I'm only looking at machines that exist now, not the more advanced versions. I see no significant between the two arguments, except that mine is facetious. You say that there is no reason why certain kinds of computations could not produce consciousness, and I say there is no reason why certain kinds of configurations of mirrors or cameras couldn't produce computation. Even the Dx = Fxx method alone, seen as a control structure, alone, or even some generalization of it, are not Turing universal. Consciousness is the attribute to the first person, it is phenomenal, and there is nothing in a mirror which a priori invites us to such an attribution. The VCR+camera do invite such an attribution though. I tend currently to attribute consciousness at the Turing complete level, and self-consciousness at the Gödel-Löbian one, like when a K4 reasoner becomes when he visits the Knave Knight Island, or when a universal Turing machine develops beliefs in enough induction axioms. Now, if your theory attributes consciousness to a mirror, and not to my sun in law, it will look even less convincing to me, Craig. I don't attribute consciousness to either one, I present the VCR example as a reductio ad absurdum against comp. Straw man. I don't think that it is. It seems to me a particularly equivalent example. If you
RE: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alberto G. Corona Sent: Monday, March 17, 2014 8:48 AM To: everything-list Subject: Re: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization An excellent piece of postmarxist (marxism rephrased as sociological science) by the church of progressivism. I suppose you believe that the only climate change science is being done by the Heritage Foundation and other such Koch brother funded think tanks? If you have some actual science based reason to criticize this study, by all means share it with us. But you don't do you - you have not even bothered to read it now have you? Be honest. Your rebuttal of the NASA study is sorely lacking in scientific rigor, preferring instead to rely on a series of colorful adjectives to present your case. If you are such a lover of science then use science and scientific data, and arguments based on clear deductions from that data to try to make your hypothesis. As it is all you have shared is a stale retreaded Tea Party rant; frankly its weak. Worn out and weak. Chris Unless the budget of the NASA and specially these experts is increased and a change in global politics and another international bureau of world engineers is created overcoming democratic control. Of course it must be headed by these experts 2014-03-15 13:46 GMT+01:00 Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net: All, this seems like a very reasonable scenario and is in line with my thinking.. Edgar http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/mar/14/nasa-civili sation-irreversible-collapse-study-scientists NASA-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'? Natural and social scientists develop new model of how 'perfect storm' of crises could unravel global system This NASA Earth Observatory released on http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2010/11/1/128864 1509988/This-NASA-Earth-Observato-006.jpg This Nasa Earth Observatory image shows a storm system circling around an area of extreme low pressure in 2010, which many scientists attribute to climate change. Photograph: AFP/Getty Images A new study sponsored by Nasa's Goddard Space Flight Center has highlighted the prospect that global industrial civilisation could collapse in coming decades due to unsustainable resource exploitation and increasingly unequal wealth distribution. Noting that warnings of 'collapse' are often seen to be fringe or controversial, the study attempts to make sense of compelling historical data showing that the process of rise-and-collapse is actually a recurrent cycle found throughout history. Cases of severe civilisational disruption due to precipitous collapse - often lasting centuries - have been quite common. The research project is based on a new cross-disciplinary 'Human And Nature DYnamical' (HANDY) model, led by applied mathematician Safa Motesharri of the US National Science Foundation-supported http://www.sesync.org/ National Socio-Environmental Synthesis Center, in association with a team of natural and social scientists. The study based on the HANDY model has been accepted for publication in the peer-reviewed Elsevier journal, Ecological Economics. It finds that according to the historical record even advanced, complex civilisations are susceptible to collapse, raising questions about the sustainability of modern civilisation: The fall of the Roman Empire, and the equally (if not more) advanced Han, Mauryan, and Gupta Empires, as well as so many advanced Mesopotamian Empires, are all testimony to the fact that advanced, sophisticated, complex, and creative civilizations can be both fragile and impermanent. By investigating the human-nature dynamics of these past cases of collapse, the project identifies the most salient interrelated factors which explain civilisational decline, and which may help determine the risk of collapse today: namely, Population, Climate, Water, Agriculture, and http://www.theguardian.com/environment/energy Energy. These factors can lead to collapse when they converge to generate two crucial social features: the stretching of resources due to the strain placed on the ecological carrying capacity; and the economic stratification of society into Elites [rich] and Masses (or Commoners) [poor] These social phenomena have played a central role in the character or in the process of the collapse, in all such cases over the last five thousand years. Currently, high levels of economic stratification are linked directly to overconsumption of resources, with Elites based largely in industrialised countries responsible for both: ... accumulated surplus is not evenly distributed throughout society, but rather has been controlled by an elite. The mass of the population, while producing the wealth, is only allocated a small portion of it by elites, usually at or just
Re: Quick video about materialism
On 16 Mar 2014, at 23:14, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Sunday, March 16, 2014 4:38:42 PM UTC-4, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 9:08 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com wrote: On Sunday, March 16, 2014 3:26:46 PM UTC-4, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: At this point my impression is: with a bucket so personalized and leaky, I can see how everything just goes in MSR, as long as Craig says so. For that reason I've taken MSR in the other thread and just filled it arbitrarily with my own primitives. You weren't amused because you thought I was selling you nonsense; so you didn't even reply. Perhaps you can relate to how I feel with many of your statements on MSR, then. If you don't like what I write, and how I write it, I suggest you follow my example and ignore it. That you ignore what and how you write is indeed becoming increasingly clear. Why others should care or read it becomes murkier though. I already stated I find your thoughts to be inspiring on many levels, in many ways. Just not the first level. Plugging sense into sense, relations into relations, without specifying some object seems empty to me, or at least so complex, that I couldn't wrap my head around it in a hundred lives. I hope you find something that clarifies this. If dreams don't require objects that are real outside of the dream experience, why should the universe? Yes, indeed, why? Good point. Objects require an experience which defines them as objects, Why? I mean that is not necessary, a priori. but experiences do not, in theory, require anything to define them. I don't think the experiences themselves can even be defined. They can be shared when they have enough 3p features in common, like the Madeleine of Proust effect. Poets and novelists exploit that, but it is an unending exploration. With comp, of course, experiences requires subject, that is person, and person requires bodies/beliefs when getting a life, with deep scenarios (deep = necessitates long computations). With the comp supervenience thesis, one first person experience supervenes on an infinity of relative computational states. Bruno Craig PGC Craig PGC Craig PGC You can't strike gold if sense contradicts its existence. PGC Contradiction requires sense to 'exist'. Craig Craig Craig I'll now watch the clip you posted! Kim Kim Jones B. Mus. GDTL Email: kimj...@ozemail.com.au kmjc...@icloud.com Mobile: 0450 963 719 Phone: 02 93894239 Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com Never let your schooling get in the way of your education - Mark Twain -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
Re: Video of VCR
On Sunday, March 16, 2014 12:37:39 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Mar 2014, at 14:10, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Sunday, March 16, 2014 3:40:49 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Mar 2014, at 23:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: http://www.jesseengland.net/index.php?/project/vide-uhhh/ Have a look at this quick video (or get the idea from this_) Since the VCR can get video feedback of itself, is there any computational reason why this doesn't count as a degree of self awareness? The computational reason is that there is no computation at all there. There is no self-representation, no introspection in the computer science theoretical sense. How do you know though? I don't know. I assume it. Then try not assuming it? This is the same argument that I give for machines, except I am saying that there is no introspection in the sense of aesthetic phenomenal sense. Where you confuse []p and []p p. Before Gödel, it was thought they would obey the same logic, when the machine is correct. But after Gödel, we know that they obey different logic, even when the machine is always correct. The aesthetics phenomenal sense comes from the machine keeping its umbilical chord with truth, which is natural for her to do, as it exists, even if relatively. I'm fine with an umbilical cord with truth, but why would there be any aesthetic phenomena or sense associated with it? I can see why sense would invent truth, but I cannot see why or how truth would invent sense. Maybe the VCR is just very young compared to the machines that you are used to considering as capable of self-representation - indeed the jumpy screen artifacts correlate perfectly with the events that are impacting the VCR's body. Notice how each operation performed on the 'VCS' (VCR + Camera System) generates a unique vocabulary of responses on the screen. Why not assume that these are intelligent cries which reflect specific mechanical emotions. If we reproduced the experiment on a variety of similar devices, we could probably deduce a mathematical schema - a language through which VCS' talk about themselves and their environment. We could interview them and see whether they follow computationalist expectations for UMs or LUMs. OK, but why would they not. You speculate on some analog machines, and you speculate on an analog theory of mind. That might be more interesting than assuming sense. You would make a theory of sense from a non comp theory of machines. Go for it. I present it only as a counter-example. I don't think that there is any sense there on that level. It's an example of how low level continuity across microphenomenal coincidence can be misattributed as having high level, phenomenal significance. There is an interesting analogy, as the computational self-reference leads to similar fixed points, but the analogy stops there. The VCR is like a mirror, with some dynamical delay similar to a computer self-reference, but it lacks the computations. Simply. I think that you would have to be telepathic to say with certainty that it lacks computations, just as I would have to be telepathic to 'know' that a machine is not a p-zombie. Oh, but if there are computations, I apologize. just show them to me. That's like me saying show me the flavor of strawberry that the machine tastes. The whole point is that there is a sub-computational level which can't be detected by computation, but which is responsible for computation. Keep in mind that with comp, a material object like a mirror does not really exist, it is a map of your most probable future experience among infinitely many: it is a wave of possible computations (arithmetical relations, in our base). It is a common and sharable *experience*. I don't think it needs to be an experience to compute though. In real life it does need to be an experience, because I think that it is the experience which underlies all computation and arithmetic rather than the other way around. In the hypothetical universe of comp though, I see no place for 'experience' at all. Computations within comp need not be felt or seen, only stored and processed. Your argument is that the VCS is a an m-zombie. A mechanical zombie which only seems to respond to its own condition as if it were a machine's 1p. By definition, a zombie acts like you and me. The mirror does not act like you and me. We're talking about the VCS though, not a mirror. As you can see in the video, it does indeed act like you and me, squealing and squirming when we treat it harshly. My sun in law does. He can discuss with you on consciousness, zombie, mind, brain, philosophy and also gastronomy, he works himself as a chef, actually. He makes money with his nose. We might think he can discuss it, but he may just be imitating the deep syntax of data he knows nothing about. His discussion is
Re: Quick video about materialism
On Monday, March 17, 2014 12:58:44 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Mar 2014, at 23:14, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Sunday, March 16, 2014 4:38:42 PM UTC-4, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 9:08 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comwrote: On Sunday, March 16, 2014 3:26:46 PM UTC-4, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: At this point my impression is: with a bucket so personalized and leaky, I can see how everything just goes in MSR, as long as Craig says so. For that reason I've taken MSR in the other thread and just filled it arbitrarily with my own primitives. You weren't amused because you thought I was selling you nonsense; so you didn't even reply. Perhaps you can relate to how I feel with many of your statements on MSR, then. If you don't like what I write, and how I write it, I suggest you follow my example and ignore it. That you ignore what and how you write is indeed becoming increasingly clear. Why others should care or read it becomes murkier though. I already stated I find your thoughts to be inspiring on many levels, in many ways. Just not the first level. Plugging sense into sense, relations into relations, without specifying some object seems empty to me, or at least so complex, that I couldn't wrap my head around it in a hundred lives. I hope you find something that clarifies this. If dreams don't require objects that are real outside of the dream experience, why should the universe? Yes, indeed, why? Good point. Objects require an experience which defines them as objects, Why? I mean that is not necessary, a priori. Not logically, but empirically, if objects could simply exist without needing to be experienced or detected, then why have experience or detection? Our body would know about its environment in the same way that any other object would interact with its environment...unconsciously, and objectively. but experiences do not, in theory, require anything to define them. I don't think the experiences themselves can even be defined. I agree. What is already 'plain' cannot be ex-plained, nor does it need to be. They can be shared when they have enough 3p features in common, like the Madeleine of Proust effect. Poets and novelists exploit that, but it is an unending exploration. With comp, of course, experiences requires subject, that is person, and person requires bodies/beliefs when getting a life, with deep scenarios (deep = necessitates long computations). With the comp supervenience thesis, one first person experience supervenes on an infinity of relative computational states. It isn't clear though why experiences on the personal level require persons, but interaction on the computational level do not require sub-personal experiences. It seems to me that arithmetic itself is a machine, and one which cannot explain itself. Craig Bruno Craig PGC Craig PGC Craig PGC You can't strike gold if sense contradicts its existence. PGC Contradiction requires sense to 'exist'. Craig Craig Craig I'll now watch the clip you posted! Kim Kim Jones B. Mus. GDTL Email: kimj...@ozemail.com.au kmjc...@icloud.com Mobile: 0450 963 719 Phone: 02 93894239 Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com *Never let your schooling get in the way of your education - Mark Twain* -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com . Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group /everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list . For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com.
Re: The Dalai Lama's Ski Trip
On 17 Mar 2014, at 04:45, Chris de Morsella wrote: -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2014 2:14 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: The Dalai Lama's Ski Trip On 16 Mar 2014, at 09:13, Chris de Morsella wrote: -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2014 12:31 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: The Dalai Lama's Ski Trip On 15 Mar 2014, at 18:48, Chris de Morsella wrote: You know I love the french (a bit cynical) poem: 'man had the good, but he sought the best, he found the bad, and kept it, by fear of the worst.' Kind regards, Bruno Nice... I mean bad :) Fear becomes, within the hidden unexamined recesses of mind, a self- driving psychological mechanism, where our fear of something becomes the thing we fear and begins to take over more and more of the mind -- if not faced that is. Facing one's own primal visceral fears is the very hardest thing for a person to ever do -- IMO -- the mind will try any trick and throw up its best rationalizations why the fear should remain buried within and not be faced. To face one's fears is a painful terrifying process, but is also the only means of escaping the fate of being driven by them. A mind can never awaken as long as it remains primarily driven by its unconscious (preconscious maybe is a better word) zombie processes. Often, even just recognizing that these exist within us is the hardest part. Once recognized, for being what they are, at least the mind becomes aware of them and can begin to act upon that awareness and in a more self-aware manner. Fears can be natural, and usually protect us. It can also become pathological and obsessive, or (and that is often the case) exploited by unscrupulous people, like fear of drugs, fear on terror, or the quasi traditional fear of hells, that humans imitates easily in jails and camps, during war or peace. Not entirely sure self-awareness is always working in this setting, although it could in many cases, but it can also lead to obsession, and sometimes the inverse of self-awareness can help, like in zen technic to forget yourself when acting, notably on a battle field. It is complicated. Agreed -- fear is often a healthy protective mechanism. Was referring, to the cyclic, mental entrapment that we can fall into when we become afraid of our fears themselves. Fear can grow to fearsome size [I apologize for the cheap pun] and paralyze the mind in an electric frenzy of neural panic. When people become paralyzed by fear; their fear becomes their phobia. Fear can be an embarrassing friend. It can eat you. A meditated quiet mind state that has learned to see through its phobias and hidden fears, is far more adept in the moment... and synchronized with the flow of time and unfolding experienced reality.. than the unexamined mind, self-consumed in, elaborate mental acrobatics to conceal, distract and explain away, and that has buried large swaths of mind in memory holes, driven to this twisted, weakened state of being, by sub-conscious zombie phobias that are the manifestations of our unexamined fear. Beginning, of course, with the fear of death... of our very personal death of the self. This is the mother lode of unexamined fears IMO :) But for those who manage to see past these fears there is much wonder in the moment... in the moment that life has given us to experience. The fear of death is often a fear of life in disguise. Which pills would you choose between those two pills? - the first one makes you immortal. - the second one makes your fear of death disappearing completely. Salvia is a bit like taking the two pills at once. Unfortunately, or fortunately (?), you forget the main part of the experience. Yet the fear of death can vanish, at least on some subject. Similar cures can come with magic mushrooms and other hallucinogens (or entheogen). There have been some convincing experiences made on dying subjects. But with salvia, the contrary can happen, as some people makes something like a bad NDE. They understand/hallucinate somehow that they are immortal, but without any assurance that the afterlife will be easy, and sometimes with the strong feeling that it will not been easy at all. They got new fears. Like comp, salvia seems to promise a hell of difficulties to some people. There are many possible difficulties, like in the Tibetan bardo-thodol, and intermediates states or realm between reincarnations, and liberations, if that exists. After salvia, some people get the feeling that death is in fact a form of wishful thinking. Like Otto Rossler said: consciousness is a prison, and you can't escape it. I have been curious about Salvia for a while and have stepped
Re: Universal Programming
On 17 Mar 2014, at 15:10, David Nyman wrote: On 17 March 2014 13:56, Gabriel Bodeen gabebod...@gmail.com wrote: If there isn't already, there needs to be some fiction about Buddhist comp-believers trying to escape immortality. To quote Wikipedia: In Indian religions, the attainment of nirvana is moksha, liberation from the cycle of rebirth. Not sure if this counts as fiction, though. Yes, buddhism is interesting in that respect. They try to solve the problem of how to not reborn. In some version of hinduism and buddhism, if you make some spiritual mistake, you might backtrack to an animal, and like in some game, to have repeat again a large number of lives. No need to take such ideas literally of course, but they are logically less wrong than aristotelianism with respect to the comp assumption. Bruno David -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Video of VCR
On 17 Mar 2014, at 17:50, Craig Weinberg wrote: If someone said that they were agnostic about God, would I be wrong in thinking that they do *not* assume God's presence or absence? To say that you assume comp and are agnostic about it would seem to be a contradiction. You have a lot of things to learn. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Video of VCR
On 17 Mar 2014, at 17:50, Craig Weinberg wrote: I'm mirroring back to you what my impression is of what you say to me. I say it is obvious that machines are impersonal, cold, mechanical, and that it is obvious that sophisticated technology can be developed that will make them seem less mechanical without actually feeling anything. Your response has been that I'm only looking at machines that exist now, not the more advanced versions. I see no significant between the two arguments, except that mine is facetious. You say that there is no reason why certain kinds of computations could not produce consciousness, and I say there is no reason why certain kinds of configurations of mirrors or cameras couldn't produce computation. You go from a mirror to a configuration of mirror. I discussed that case. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Video of VCR
On 17 Mar 2014, at 18:11, Craig Weinberg wrote: I don't think it needs to be an experience to compute though. In real life it does need to be an experience, because I think that it is the experience which underlies all computation and arithmetic rather than the other way around. In the hypothetical universe of comp though, I see no place for 'experience' at all. Computations within comp need not be felt or seen, only stored and processed. Because you believe that comp associate consciousness to machine/ bodies, or to behavior, despite I have explained many times this is not what comp does. Consciousness is an attribute of a person, which own a body (well, infinitely many bodies). Then by assuming sense, sorry, but that does just not make sense to me, unless you mean God, but then you are not doing a theory, and if your god does not allow my sun in law to play genuinely his role in the spectacle, I am not sure I can discuss this anymore. Your theory seems to be only an opinion that another theory is foolish. You seem unable to doubt, as I have shown the remarkable coherence, with respect to comp, of your phenomenology, with the one made by the first person associated naturally to the machine, by applying the oldest definition of knowledge to machines, and it works thanks to a remarkable, and non obvious double phenomena: incompleteness and machine's understanding of incompleteness. Anyway, I have not seen any theory, nor valid argument. Sorry. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: First direct evidence of cosmic inflation
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/03/140317125850.htm First direct evidence of cosmic inflation Date: March 17, 2014 Source: Harvard–Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics Summary: Almost 14 billion years ago, the universe we inhabit burst into existence in an extraordinary event that initiated the Big Bang. In the first fleeting fraction of a second, the universe expanded exponentially, stretching far beyond the view of our best telescopes. All this, of course, was just theory. Researchers now announce the first direct evidence for this cosmic inflation. Their data also represent the first images of gravitational waves, or ripples in space-time. These waves have been described as the first tremors of the Big Bang. Finally, the data confirm a deep connection between quantum mechanics and general relativity. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: First direct evidence of cosmic inflation
[image: Inline images 1] Wow. That is so cool, the first (sort-of) direct detection of gravitational waves, as opposed to infering their existence from binary neutron stars' orbital decay. (This is kind of parallel to how the neutrino was discovered, come to think of it.) That pattern looks so regular, like atoms blown up to the size of galaxies... they say they spent 3 years checking the data for local sources and I can see why, that looks like a really clear signal. And evidence for inflation, too ... (can they deduce anything about how it happened, how long for etc, yet?) On 18 March 2014 09:26, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/03/140317125850.htm First direct evidence of cosmic inflation Date: March 17, 2014 Source: Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics Summary: Almost 14 billion years ago, the universe we inhabit burst into existence in an extraordinary event that initiated the Big Bang. In the first fleeting fraction of a second, the universe expanded exponentially, stretching far beyond the view of our best telescopes. All this, of course, was just theory. Researchers now announce the first direct evidence for this cosmic inflation. Their data also represent the first images of gravitational waves, or ripples in space-time. These waves have been described as the first tremors of the Big Bang. Finally, the data confirm a deep connection between quantum mechanics and general relativity. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Gravity Wave Signature Discovered
Inflation appears now to be evidenced http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/gravity-waves-cmb-b-mode-polarization/?utm_source=hootsuiteutm_campaign=hootsuite Kim Jones B.Mus.GDTL Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au Mobile: 0450 963 719 Landline: 02 9389 4239 Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com Never let your schooling get in the way of your education - Mark Twain -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Gravity Wave Signature Discovered
Sodid anyone's ToE predict this outcome? On Monday, March 17, 2014 9:14:00 PM UTC, Kim Jones wrote: Inflation appears now to be evidenced http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/gravity-waves-cmb-b-mode-polarization/?utm_source=hootsuiteutm_campaign=hootsuite Kim Jones B.Mus.GDTL Email: kimj...@ozemail.com.au javascript: Mobile: 0450 963 719 Landline: 02 9389 4239 Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com Never let your schooling get in the way of your education - Mark Twain -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Gravity Wave Signature Discovered
OK - so I should have written Gravitational Wave (Gravity waves are something else.) K On 18 Mar 2014, at 8:14 am, Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au wrote: Inflation appears now to be evidenced http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/gravity-waves-cmb-b-mode-polarization/?utm_source=hootsuiteutm_campaign=hootsuite Kim Jones B.Mus.GDTL Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au Mobile: 0450 963 719 Landline: 02 9389 4239 Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com Never let your schooling get in the way of your education - Mark Twain -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. Kim Jones B.Mus.GDTL Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au Mobile: 0450 963 719 Landline: 02 9389 4239 Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com Never let your schooling get in the way of your education - Mark Twain -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Video of VCR
On Monday, March 17, 2014 2:17:01 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Mar 2014, at 17:50, Craig Weinberg wrote: If someone said that they were agnostic about God, would I be wrong in thinking that they do *not* assume God's presence or absence? To say that you assume comp and are agnostic about it would seem to be a contradiction. You have a lot of things to learn. That seems like an odd response to what I see as a fairly uncontroversial assertion. Craig Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Video of VCR
On Monday, March 17, 2014 2:31:32 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Mar 2014, at 18:11, Craig Weinberg wrote: I don't think it needs to be an experience to compute though. In real life it does need to be an experience, because I think that it is the experience which underlies all computation and arithmetic rather than the other way around. In the hypothetical universe of comp though, I see no place for 'experience' at all. Computations within comp need not be felt or seen, only stored and processed. Because you believe that comp associate consciousness to machine/bodies, or to behavior, despite I have explained many times this is not what comp does. Consciousness is an attribute of a person, which own a body (well, infinitely many bodies). Then the explanatory gap is moved from mind/brain to person/computation, with no improvement on bridging it. Then by assuming sense, sorry, but that does just not make sense to me, unless you mean God, God has to make sense too. but then you are not doing a theory, and if your god does not allow my sun in law to play genuinely his role in the spectacle, I am not sure I can discuss this anymore. His genuine role is not in the spectacle, it is in the intangible processing of meaningless data. Your theory seems to be only an opinion that another theory is foolish. Not at all. My attack on CTM is only part of MSR because MSR seeks to pick up where CTM leaves off. The theory is about the relation of sense, information, and physics, and about the spectrum of sense, not just about pointing out the mistake of comp. You seem unable to doubt, as I have shown the remarkable coherence, with respect to comp, of your phenomenology, with the one made by the first person associated naturally to the machine, by applying the oldest definition of knowledge to machines, and it works thanks to a remarkable, and non obvious double phenomena: incompleteness and machine's understanding of incompleteness. This is one of your points that I find the most flawed, and I have explained why many times. If we are both machines under comp, how can you say that my view is consistent with the stereotypical machine views if your view is not? You would have to be placing yourself above me arbitrarily and escaping your own 1p machine nature somehow. Why doesn't Bruno machine succumb to incompleteness and his understanding of incompleteness? Anyway, I have not seen any theory, nor valid argument. Sorry. Maybe that's what 1p machines say when they are infected with the comp virus ;) Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Video of VCR
On Monday, March 17, 2014 2:18:58 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Mar 2014, at 17:50, Craig Weinberg wrote: I'm mirroring back to you what my impression is of what you say to me. I say it is obvious that machines are impersonal, cold, mechanical, and that it is obvious that sophisticated technology can be developed that will make them seem less mechanical without actually feeling anything. Your response has been that I'm only looking at machines that exist now, not the more advanced versions. I see no significant between the two arguments, except that mine is facetious. You say that there is no reason why certain kinds of computations could not produce consciousness, and I say there is no reason why certain kinds of configurations of mirrors or cameras couldn't produce computation. You go from a mirror to a configuration of mirror. I discussed that case. I am comparing the argument against zombies in comp with your argument against the VCR. I see a double standard in comp which is very left wing in presuming equality with living creatures, but very right wing in presuming lower status for phenomena in which computation is not apparent. Craig Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Tegmark and UDA step 3
On Sunday, March 16, 2014 3:46:23 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Mar 2014, at 13:03, ghi...@gmail.com javascript: wrote: On Sunday, March 16, 2014 7:24:10 AM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Mar 2014, at 13:22, ghi...@gmail.com wrote: I don't feel so much cloaked in the Popperian view. It has been been refuted by John Case, notably (showing that Popper was doing science in his own term, paradoxically).ime Bruno - how do you mean this? In the paradoxical way, as showing that popper has a point, but that it should not be taken too much seriously. 0+x = x is hardly refutable, yet a *very interesting and fundamental* scientific idea. You have consistently defined science in popper terms? It is mine, or Socrates one. Popper insists rightly on this, but you can see this as common sense. This has not prevented Popper to take some physicalism for granted, though, and Popper is far from being the most Popperian scientist. But then I have rarely seen a philosopher following his own philosophy. OK, this time I'm going to go and find you untold quotes of you referring to popper, in your papers, in your talks and so on. Saying you accept popper. I'd do the computer is consciousness thing at the same time. ? I accept Popper for a sufficient criterion of being reasonably scientific, but I find it part of science and 3p discourses, and first person plural one, since Socrates. It is just nice that Popper insists on that criterion. You've defined theory in conjectural terms. Theory, or just belief. the theory that you have parents is a theory. You need to assume it without proof. the same for the existence of sun and moon. You've defined the terms for evaluation and criteria for acceptance - of a theory - multidimensionally in popper terms in line with dimensions of popperian philosophy itself. You've rejected or said you don't understand, wherever and whenever I have spoken as if in reference to something other than popper. You've claimed something is science because testable, and testable as falsifiable, and all of this nothing added or subtracted from boiler plate popperianism. If something is testable, it is science. But if something is not testable, it is not necessarily bad science. well you have the same views as popper on anything philosophy of science I've seen. Nice! But I am not that sure. He wrote a curious book in philosophy of mind, with Eccles. That was a sort of attempt to rescued dualism in a non mechanist theory. Poorly convincing, but rather honest and naive (so I appreciate, even if I am not convinced). Then Popper missed badly the Everett QM, (not to mention the comp arithmetic), and developed his propensity theory, which in my opinion, illustrates an incorrect use of the analytical tools, like in the error of logicism and positivism. Falsifiability might be more a criterion of interestingness, and an help for clarity, in place the falsifiability is out the possible practice (like with String Theory according to some, (but not with comp)). so it's the same cloak whatever :O) ? I am not sure if I have any clue where we would differ, nor if that has any relevance with the reasoning I suggest, to formulate a problem, and reduce one problem into another.ia Well, I do differ in general on the view that Science - why it worked - has been understood. I also differ on the idea that philosophy - which is pre-scientific or non-scientific - can explain science. The problem is that logicallyjust the act of doing philosophy on science, pre-assumes that philosophy *can* explain science. I meando you really think that if, as it turned out, philosophy cahnnot explain science, that doing philosophy on science would actually reveal that? no! the philosopher would find an explanation. So just doing philosophy on science pre-assumes the answer to the question. There's two camps Bruno. One is that science was just an extension of philosophy, among other things. Almost everyone is in this camp, whether explicitly or by default. The other camp is that something fundamental, and profound, happened with science, that is extremely mysterious and unresolved. Membership of either camp is an act of faith. I'm in the second camp. Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only one. You do look unhappy with something, apparently related to comp, or to the UDA, or to AUDA? Absolutely not. I've recently concluded my personal work on the wider matter. It's been hugely valuable. Talking to you has been a part of it. I would like to give you something back...maybe I feel frustrated that I can't get you to see what I am saying. But never unhappy with you or your work. I'm very appreciative that you talk to me at all. I'm not careful with what I say. I touch type about 100wpm and rarely check what I said before posting. I'm sorry if that
Re: Gravity Wave Signature Discovered
On Monday, March 17, 2014 9:21:20 PM UTC, Kim Jones wrote: OK - so I should have written “Gravitational Wave” (Gravity waves are something else.) K Oh, thanks for saying thatI thought they meant gravity waves. Which - I thought - was a major prediction of Inflation. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization
Hi everyone Below is a URL from one of my posts on the subject of life being inherently self destructive which I believe it to be. It provides my curent argument on the subject. I think such discussion is relevant to the main history of this group's threads because if life is indeed always inherently self destructive wherever it appears in any allowed universe then why is there such a down select in the types of allowed universes. - *http://arobustfuturehistory.wordpress.com/*http://arobustfuturehistory.wordpress.com/ Hal Ruhl -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Gravity Wave Signature Discovered
Only if you're being very nitpicky... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_wave I would say in the context of astrophysics or cosmology, everyone should know what your mean if you say gravity wave (i.e. you mean a gravitational wave). And it's shorter to type. On 18 March 2014 10:21, Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au wrote: OK - so I should have written Gravitational Wave (Gravity waves are something else.) K On 18 Mar 2014, at 8:14 am, Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au wrote: Inflation appears now to be evidenced http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/gravity-waves-cmb-b-mode-polarization/?utm_source=hootsuiteutm_campaign=hootsuite Kim Jones B.Mus.GDTL Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au Mobile: 0450 963 719 Landline: 02 9389 4239 Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com Never let your schooling get in the way of your education - Mark Twain -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. Kim Jones B.Mus.GDTL Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au Mobile: 0450 963 719 Landline: 02 9389 4239 Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com Never let your schooling get in the way of your education - Mark Twain -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Gravity Wave Signature Discovered
http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/news/2014-05 On 18 March 2014 11:24, ghib...@gmail.com wrote: On Monday, March 17, 2014 9:21:20 PM UTC, Kim Jones wrote: OK - so I should have written Gravitational Wave (Gravity waves are something else.) K Oh, thanks for saying thatI thought they meant gravity waves. Which - I thought - was a major prediction of Inflation. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Gravity Wave Signature Discovered
This is very cool. Gravitational waves and inflation in one feel swoop. (Well, a 3-year fell swoop.) On 18 March 2014 12:20, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/news/2014-05 On 18 March 2014 11:24, ghib...@gmail.com wrote: On Monday, March 17, 2014 9:21:20 PM UTC, Kim Jones wrote: OK - so I should have written Gravitational Wave (Gravity waves are something else.) K Oh, thanks for saying thatI thought they meant gravity waves. Which - I thought - was a major prediction of Inflation. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Gravity Wave Signature Discovered
You might also like to see Chris de Morsella's post. I'm not sure how to link to it but the title is First direct evidence of cosmic inflation On 18 March 2014 12:21, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: This is very cool. Gravitational waves and inflation in one feel swoop. (Well, a 3-year fell swoop.) On 18 March 2014 12:20, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/news/2014-05 On 18 March 2014 11:24, ghib...@gmail.com wrote: On Monday, March 17, 2014 9:21:20 PM UTC, Kim Jones wrote: OK - so I should have written Gravitational Wave (Gravity waves are something else.) K Oh, thanks for saying thatI thought they meant gravity waves. Which - I thought - was a major prediction of Inflation. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization
On 18 March 2014 05:01, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Well, to get on track, we would need to assert trade offs, fixes, and solutions, rather than promote mere complaint. This goes for myself, but few seem to feel this way. If we want a clean green Earth, then problem solving is essential. In that attempt to problem solve, we may come up with a decent idea, or promote one we have heard of. That is exactly how I feel about it. However I suspect that your rants about how [insert special interest group here] are a bunch of [insert despised political group here] planning to create a [insert feared political system here] may not have helped people appreciate that this is your position. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Gravity Wave Signature Discovered
Scientific American said Gravity Waves in the page title so I wouldn't worry too much! On 18 March 2014 10:21, Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au wrote: OK - so I should have written Gravitational Wave (Gravity waves are something else.) K On 18 Mar 2014, at 8:14 am, Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au wrote: Inflation appears now to be evidenced http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/gravity-waves-cmb-b-mode-polarization/?utm_source=hootsuiteutm_campaign=hootsuite Kim Jones B.Mus.GDTL Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au Mobile: 0450 963 719 Landline: 02 9389 4239 Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com Never let your schooling get in the way of your education - Mark Twain -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. Kim Jones B.Mus.GDTL Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au Mobile: 0450 963 719 Landline: 02 9389 4239 Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com Never let your schooling get in the way of your education - Mark Twain -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Gravity Wave Signature Discovered
Mind you BICEP2 is a rubbish acronym. On 18 March 2014 13:12, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: Scientific American said Gravity Waves in the page title so I wouldn't worry too much! On 18 March 2014 10:21, Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au wrote: OK - so I should have written Gravitational Wave (Gravity waves are something else.) K On 18 Mar 2014, at 8:14 am, Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au wrote: Inflation appears now to be evidenced http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/gravity-waves-cmb-b-mode-polarization/?utm_source=hootsuiteutm_campaign=hootsuite Kim Jones B.Mus.GDTL Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au Mobile: 0450 963 719 Landline: 02 9389 4239 Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com Never let your schooling get in the way of your education - Mark Twain -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. Kim Jones B.Mus.GDTL Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au Mobile: 0450 963 719 Landline: 02 9389 4239 Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com Never let your schooling get in the way of your education - Mark Twain -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Gravity Wave Signature Discovered
What's wrong with SPOTS detector (Swirly Pattern On The Sky) ? :-) On 18 March 2014 14:11, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: Mind you BICEP2 is a rubbish acronym. On 18 March 2014 13:12, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: Scientific American said Gravity Waves in the page title so I wouldn't worry too much! On 18 March 2014 10:21, Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au wrote: OK - so I should have written Gravitational Wave (Gravity waves are something else.) K On 18 Mar 2014, at 8:14 am, Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au wrote: Inflation appears now to be evidenced http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/gravity-waves-cmb-b-mode-polarization/?utm_source=hootsuiteutm_campaign=hootsuite Kim Jones B.Mus.GDTL Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au Mobile: 0450 963 719 Landline: 02 9389 4239 Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com Never let your schooling get in the way of your education - Mark Twain -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. Kim Jones B.Mus.GDTL Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au Mobile: 0450 963 719 Landline: 02 9389 4239 Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com Never let your schooling get in the way of your education - Mark Twain -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: First direct evidence of cosmic inflation
The interesting question is which cosmogony models are ruled out by this. I think it rules out the d-brane collision models and maybe other string based models. Brent On 3/17/2014 2:10 PM, LizR wrote: Inline images 1 Wow. That is so cool, the first (sort-of) direct detection of gravitational waves, as opposed to infering their existence from binary neutron stars' orbital decay. (This is kind of parallel to how the neutrino was discovered, come to think of it.) That pattern looks so regular, like atoms blown up to the size of galaxies... they say they spent 3 years checking the data for local sources and I can see why, that looks like a really clear signal. And evidence for inflation, too ... (can they deduce anything about how it happened, how long for etc, yet?) On 18 March 2014 09:26, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com mailto:cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/03/140317125850.htm First direct evidence of cosmic inflation Date: March 17, 2014 Source: Harvard--Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics Summary: Almost 14 billion years ago, the universe we inhabit burst into existence in an extraordinary event that initiated the Big Bang. In the first fleeting fraction of a second, the universe expanded exponentially, stretching far beyond the view of our best telescopes. All this, of course, was just theory. Researchers now announce the first direct evidence for this cosmic inflation. Their data also represent the first images of gravitational waves, or ripples in space-time. These waves have been described as the first tremors of the Big Bang. Finally, the data confirm a deep connection between quantum mechanics and general relativity. -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: First direct evidence of cosmic inflation
On 18 March 2014 14:16, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: The interesting question is which cosmogony models are ruled out by this. I think it rules out the d-brane collision models and maybe other string based models. That is absolutely the most interesting question. Cosmology is on the move again, just as we've got blase about the accelerating universe. They're talking about ruling out various flavours of inflationary theory in some of the articles, although caution is advised, as ever, until the results are replicated independently. The results are apparently surprising (I think the size of the blobs is larger han expected, or something?) so it would be nice to get this confirmed from a different part of the sky, with a different team using a different detector. (With a cooler acronym...) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: The situation at Fukushima appears to be deteriorating
On the subject of environmentalists wanting to save the planet even at the expense of the human race, it's heartening to see the latest missive from Greenpeace, which starts... Nobody wants tigers to go extinct, but consider this; *without healthy forests our own survival may also be under threat.* (Their emphasis). Note their main affiliation lies not with tigers but humanity. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization
On Monday, March 17, 2014 11:37:36 PM UTC, Liz R wrote: On 18 March 2014 05:01, spudb...@aol.com javascript: wrote: Well, to get on track, we would need to assert trade offs, fixes, and solutions, rather than promote mere complaint. This goes for myself, but few seem to feel this way. If we want a clean green Earth, then problem solving is essential. In that attempt to problem solve, we may come up with a decent idea, or promote one we have heard of. That is exactly how I feel about it. However I suspect that your rants about how [insert special interest group here] are a bunch of [insert despised political group here] planning to create a [insert feared political system here] may not have helped people appreciate that this is your position. What's interesting about the way you write this as a fill-the-blanks template, is the question of how close your template comes to ubiquity in terms of total-humans/humans-filtering-the-world-through-lizzies-templatee At least partially filtering through the template anyway. Keeping meaningfulness by requiring instances of whole template usage, not partial. Staying with that measure, a further question would be how much more closely does your template define the contemporary era than others in history? Then, defining each era in terms of how much your template captures it, what does history look like on those terms? Does it tell a coherent story? Like, are there lizzie template spikes at the major milestones, like the French Revolution, or the Bolshevik Takeover of Russia, or during the Cold War. Would that template alone be enough to define every historical period sufficiently that each one, say, had its own distinctive template usage character. For example the Cold War might feature massive usage, but with everything breaking down into two templates in most common use. One for soviet and the other for American sympathy. Bolshevik could also be largely broken into two, one involving, say, the bourgeoisie or something. French Revolution might pair around 'aristocracy'. Thinking about it, could not the emergent pattern from history be that there is generally a reactionary and revolutionary template? A template for the incumbent and for would-be nemesis. Or in time, of the power that ruled in time going backwards and power that rules in time going forwards...around some point. The cold war template would kind of break into four..two each for East and West, such that both represent both positions. But does the contemporary situation fit the historical pattern? It seems vastly more complex to me. In all the other instances, there was major backing for the template...two elites, or one elite and one would-be elite, would be ultimate backers of one of the two mirroring templates. Everyone pretty much knew who the elites were. At least that could be said. Do we know now? What would the template usage say, keeping with the idea of that being the only information allowed to define history. Would the template usage that said knowledge of elites was fairly strong, show a division about two ways? That'd fit with historical situation. What about now? Fair enough history must have had some outlying daft theories like now, so let's elimate those. Also control for the information revolution and the extents, then, of templates becoming more complex due to people being influenced online. One way to do this would be to select a sample of the most mainstream template. Surely most of us have some experience of the mainstream. Either we're moving in the direction of it, or moving the other way. But generally we know something about it. Does the mainsteam template know who our elites are right now? Do you? Do people even here in this thread agree on this question? How many different views on this are here alone? It's a world of infinite infinities, bocktime multiverses, endless potentials and exponentially growing optimism...where to say otherwise is literally bad philosophy by definition. There is even the suggestion that elites cannot exist at all...not cohersive ones anyway..,that to say otherwise is bad philosophy too (i.e. Deutsch). Maybe that's a reason why no one knows. Because no such thing exists. Maybe the reason fewer and fewer people talk about such a thing as an incumbent elite. Fewer news references, fewer political references, fewer scientific references...maybe as the spread of good philosophy all such talk fades out of all mainstream template usage. Maybe this era defines a big template usage divide, a pairing, after all. Mention of Elites. One side convergent to 'never' the other divergent to cacophonic chaotic confusion. So in a way both sides amounting to never. One side literal, the other side useful information. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop
Re: New NASA study predicts high probability of collapse of industrial civilization
On Tuesday, March 18, 2014 3:43:58 AM UTC, ghi...@gmail.com wrote: On Monday, March 17, 2014 11:37:36 PM UTC, Liz R wrote: On 18 March 2014 05:01, spudb...@aol.com wrote: Well, to get on track, we would need to assert trade offs, fixes, and solutions, rather than promote mere complaint. This goes for myself, but few seem to feel this way. If we want a clean green Earth, then problem solving is essential. In that attempt to problem solve, we may come up with a decent idea, or promote one we have heard of. That is exactly how I feel about it. However I suspect that your rants about how [insert special interest group here] are a bunch of [insert despised political group here] planning to create a [insert feared political system here] may not have helped people appreciate that this is your position. What's interesting about the way you write this as a fill-the-blanks template, is the question of how close your template comes to ubiquity in terms of total-humans/humans-filtering-the-world-through-lizzies-templatee At least partially filtering through the template anyway. Keeping meaningfulness by requiring instances of whole template usage, not partial. Staying with that measure, a further question would be how much more closely does your template define the contemporary era than others in history? Then, defining each era in terms of how much your template captures it, what does history look like on those terms? Does it tell a coherent story? Like, are there lizzie template spikes at the major milestones, like the French Revolution, or the Bolshevik Takeover of Russia, or during the Cold War. Would that template alone be enough to define every historical period sufficiently that each one, say, had its own distinctive template usage character. For example the Cold War might feature massive usage, but with everything breaking down into two templates in most common use. One for soviet and the other for American sympathy. Bolshevik could also be largely broken into two, one involving, say, the bourgeoisie or something. French Revolution might pair around 'aristocracy'. Thinking about it, could not the emergent pattern from history be that there is generally a reactionary and revolutionary template? A template for the incumbent and for would-be nemesis. Or in time, of the power that ruled in time going backwards and power that rules in time going forwards...around some point. The cold war template would kind of break into four..two each for East and West, such that both represent both positions. But does the contemporary situation fit the historical pattern? It seems vastly more complex to me. In all the other instances, there was major backing for the template...two elites, or one elite and one would-be elite, would be ultimate backers of one of the two mirroring templates. Everyone pretty much knew who the elites were. At least that could be said. Do we know now? What would the template usage say, keeping with the idea of that being the only information allowed to define history. Would the template usage that said knowledge of elites was fairly strong, show a division about two ways? That'd fit with historical situation. What about now? Fair enough history must have had some outlying daft theories like now, so let's elimate those. Also control for the information revolution and the extents, then, of templates becoming more complex due to people being influenced online. One way to do this would be to select a sample of the most mainstream template. Surely most of us have some experience of the mainstream. Either we're moving in the direction of it, or moving the other way. But generally we know something about it. Does the mainsteam template know who our elites are right now? Do you? Do people even here in this thread agree on this question? How many different views on this are here alone? It's a world of infinite infinities, bocktime multiverses, endless potentials and exponentially growing optimism...where to say otherwise is literally bad philosophy by definition. There is even the suggestion that elites cannot exist at all...not cohersive ones anyway..,that to say otherwise is bad philosophy too (i.e. Deutsch). Maybe that's a reason why no one knows. Because no such thing exists. Maybe the reason fewer and fewer people talk about such a thing as an incumbent elite. Fewer news references, fewer political references, fewer scientific references...maybe as the spread of good philosophy all such talk fades out of all mainstream template usage. Maybe this era defines a big template usage divide, a pairing, after all. Mention of Elites. One side convergent to 'never' the other divergent to cacophonic chaotic confusion. So in a way both sides amounting to never. One side literal, the other side useful information. As an after thought I
Fwd: video of Andrei Linde hearing gravity wave news
Neat! Original Message Here is a Stanford video you might like to watch of Andrei Linde hearing the news about gravity waves. Enjoy. http://www.theverge.com/2014/3/17/5518346/first-evidence-gravitational-waves-supports-big-bang-inflation -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
