[CITTERN] Re: new source for wire strings
Dear Rob et al., By rose brass I assume you mean the brass made by Malcolm Rose. I'm not sure which one you mean, as he appears to have two types: Red brass (a 90/10 mix of copper and something else, probably mostly zinc) and English brass (a 70/30 mix of ditto). I do not carry Malcolm Rose brass at present, but I do regularly stock a yellow brass (70/30), which is drawn in the US. I can also supply red brass (85/15 for smaller diameters and 90/10 for larger diameters), though I haven't stocked it because I haven't had any requests for it so far. (That, of course, may change!) I should make clear that I do not produce or draw my own wire (yet!), though I do personally hand-twist each of the twisted strings and loops for plain strings. For those interested in strings for English Guittar, James Tyler had me make a complete set of iron and yellow brass (with twisted strings for courses 5 and 6) for his restored Rauche guittar (43cm mensur, A-415, cegc'e'g') in December of 2009. He told me he was very pleased with them. I can readily make up a duplicate set for anyone else who is interested. Simply contact me off-list. Best regards, Andrew At 11:05 AM 4/18/2012, you wrote: Andrew, I've just visited your site, and am impressed. I'd like to ask you about rose brass, which I use for my English Guittar. I love the chiming sound of it on the third, fourth and fifth courses, but I don't see it on your site. Bear in mind I know next to nothing about metals, tensions, and what not, so maybe you do carry rose brass, maybe under a different name? Rob [1]www.robmackillop.net -- References 1. http://www.robmackillop.net/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Oswald's Divertimentis - mp3s and score
Hi all, Rob MacKillop just sent me a message to repost to this list. As an owner of the original CD, I highly recommend this music. It is very generous of him to make the mp3s and score freely available! (The compositions are about half way down the page.) AMH As the record company who originally released my recording of James Oswald's 'Twelve Divertimentis for the Guittar' no longer exists, I have placed mp3 files of all the tracks (all twelve divertimenti) on my website: http://robmackillop.net/guitar/cittern/ - you will also find there a pdf facsimile of the original publication. This is the only recording of all these magnificent guittar compositions. Enjoy. Rob MacKillop To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[no subject]
Magic erection is possible!. [1]http://graphique-com.fr/sites.friend.php?cgoogleId=08kj1 -- References 1. http://graphique-com.fr/sites.friend.php?cgoogleId=08kj1 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] New here with this instrument
[1]http://www.finke-family.de/images/Cister.jpeg Hello everyone, I am new here - my name is Claudia and I'm from Germany. I now have the above citter, which is a handmade instrument only used for the recording of an album. Does anyone know whether I can use literature for luths for this kind of citter? What is the normal tuning for this or are there several ways to use it? I can only play the guitar, I don't have any experience with luths or cittern, but I'm willing to learn! Can anyone help with more information about this citter? Thank you, Claudia -- References 1. http://www.finke-family.de/images/Cister.jpeg To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: New here with this instrument
On 21/06/2011 16:03, Claudia Finke wrote: [1]http://www.finke-family.de/images/Cister.jpeg Hello everyone, I am new here - my name is Claudia and I'm from Germany. I now have the above citter, which is a handmade instrument only used for the recording of an album. Does anyone know whether I can use literature for luths for this kind of citter? What is the normal tuning for this or are there several ways to use it? I can only play the guitar, I don't have any experience with luths or cittern, but I'm willing to learn! Can anyone help with more information about this citter? Thank you, Claudia -- Join the ning cittern group: http://cittern.ning.com/main/authorization/signIn?target=http%3A%2F%2Fcittern.ning.com%2F and ask there. Stuart References 1. http://www.finke-family.de/images/Cister.jpeg To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Otley MS - on-line
Dear all, I am proud to announce that I heard from John H. Robinson today that he has arranged for the Houghton Library at Harvard to make a digital copy of the complete Otley Cittern Book [US-CAh Mus.181] and for them to post it on-line on their website for all to see. The manuscript can be seen by visiting the following link: [1]http://pds.lib.harvard.edu/pds/view/22398305 He is working on an introduction to the MS, which might be posted later(?). A full inventory can be found in John Ward's 'Sprightly and Cheerful Musick: Notes on the cittern, gittern, and guitar in 16th- and 17th-century England' Lute Society Journal XXI (1979-81), pp. 142-158. Please feel free to share this message with others. And - enjoy! AMH -- References 1. http://pds.lib.harvard.edu/pds/view/22398305 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Happy new year 2011
Dear friends, I wish to all Of you all the best for this new year 2011! Rgds, Damien Delgrossi Envoyé de mon iPhone To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] English guitar in Oslo Folk museum
I visited this museum in the summer. They have an english guitar by Longman Broderip (mentioned in the norwegian language info) that looked very much like the one in this link: http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/ZISTER/0628.htm . The info also named Nicolai Benjamin Aall and his daughter Inger (possibly as past owners? unfortunately I don't know norwegian) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolai_Benjamin_Aall From my tourist understanding of Norwegian history there were very strong commercial and cultural ties between Norway and Britain in the 18th century, and it would make sense for this instrument to have been introduced directly from Britain to Norway, rather than via Denmark. Cheers Stelios To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] A piece for (English) guitar by G.B. Noferi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbRPlJxGbXw Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] a couple of (English) guitar/guittar pieces
An Allegretto from Merchi's Dodici Suonate (1765) Sonata III for solo guitar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFezGHDyvYo and an Allegro non Tropo [sic] from Noferi's Six Sonatas or Lessons for the guitar (c1775) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ojh60MFFAoM Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: [CITTERN]
You have a very nice sounding cetra, Stuart. I suppose you remember that Ford cautions about getting a well-fretted instrument - the Hintz I used to have had a very flat 7th fret, certainly not something from any temperament that I've ever heard. Eventually, I had it it redone. It's not period, but perhaps you could consider some compensation on the saddle and or nut. Have a close look at the nut and make sure it's flush up to the fingerboard and that the strings lie in their slots right up to the edge of the nut. Looking forward to your next recording! Doc On Aug 31, 2010, at 9:26 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote: On 22 August 2010 11:47, ro...@cetrapublishing.com ro...@cetrapublishing.com wrote: I can suggest two things to look at to resolve intonation issues. First, have a look at the nut. Do the strings lay in the grooves properly? It could be that the top of the nut is curved or that the grooves are not cut properly, so that some or all of the strings don't lay in the groove right up to the edge of the nut. The other thing is to experiment with bridge placement. The theory is that the distance nut to 12th fret and 12th fret to bridge are the same, but that doesn't always work in practice. You might also find that angling the bridge helps intonation as well. Let us know how it goes. Thanks Doc. I moved the bridge back a few mms and it really has made a difference. I can get top e in tune now (and g). Better still, the tuning lower down is better too. Here's a dead easy duet from a Pocket Book from 1775. (No high notes, though) The tuning still isn't right, but it's better. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/2citras.mp3 Stuart Doc I was going to play another piece by Ritter, a Rondeau. But in the minor section it has an E flat arpeggio above the fifth position and I just can't get my guittar in tune up there. Perhaps my guittar is particularly poorly fretted. Those guittars with capo holes must have be well fretted. I suspect the Geminiani pieces would be unplayable on my guittar (which may not be untypical). Stuart mail2web.com - Microsoft® Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html mail2web LIVE Free email based on Microsoft® Exchange technology - http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE myhosting.com - Premium Microsoft® Windows® and Linux web and application hosting - http://link.myhosting.com/myhosting
[CITTERN] Siciliana by Ghillini di Asuni
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rEWuClKCD4 A Siciliana by the rather dubiously named Ghillini di Asuni who published a few books, right up to the late 1780s. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] North America in January
Greetings from the Alps! I'm going to be in Michigan in January - I have a few gigs between there and Ontario. If you would like to have me play, do a workshop, or give a lecture/concert during that time, please drop me a line and let me know. Thanks, Doc mail2web LIVE Free email based on Microsoft® Exchange technology - http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Allemande by D. Ritter
ro...@cetrapublishing.com wrote: Nice to hear someone else playing Ritter! I think his music is interesting, but I also think you're short changing Schumann and Straube. There is actually quite a bit of writing that accompanies itself even if, on paper, it doesn't appear so. Have a play through Schumann's Lesson XII and I think you'll see what I mean. The major section of Lesson II is another example, while the minor section is purely melodic. I haven't played any Oswald in a while, but if memory serves, a lot of his tunes sound complete without an obvious two-voice texture. It isn't a Bach violin solo, but it does make good use of the cetra's idiomatic characteristics. Thanks for posting the video - Doc I was going to play another piece by Ritter, a Rondeau. But in the minor section it has an E flat arpeggio above the fifth position and I just can't get my guittar in tune up there. Perhaps my guittar is particularly poorly fretted. Those guittars with capo holes must have be well fretted. I suspect the Geminiani pieces would be unplayable on my guittar (which may not be untypical). Stuart mail2web.com - Microsoft® Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN]
ro...@cetrapublishing.com wrote: Nice to hear someone else playing Ritter! I think his music is interesting, but I also think you're short changing Schumann and Straube. There is actually quite a bit of writing that accompanies itself even if, on paper, it doesn't appear so. Have a play through Schumann's Lesson XII and I think you'll see what I mean. The major section of Lesson II is another example, while the minor section is purely melodic. I haven't played any Oswald in a while, but if memory serves, a lot of his tunes sound complete without an obvious two-voice texture. It isn't a Bach violin solo, but it does make good use of the cetra's idiomatic characteristics. Thanks for posting the video - Doc I was going to play another piece by Ritter, a Rondeau. But in the minor section it has an E flat arpeggio above the fifth position and I just can't get my guittar in tune up there. Perhaps my guittar is particularly poorly fretted. Those guittars with capo holes must have be well fretted. I suspect the Geminiani pieces would be unplayable on my guittar (which may not be untypical). Stuart mail2web.com - Microsoft® Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html myhosting.com - Premium Microsoft® Windows® and Linux web and application hosting - http://link.myhosting.com/myhosting
[CITTERN]
ro...@cetrapublishing.com wrote: Nice to hear someone else playing Ritter! I think his music is interesting, but I also think you're short changing Schumann and Straube. There is actually quite a bit of writing that accompanies itself even if, on paper, it doesn't appear so. Have a play through Schumann's Lesson XII and I think you'll see what I mean. The major section of Lesson II is another example, while the minor section is purely melodic. I haven't played any Oswald in a while, but if memory serves, a lot of his tunes sound complete without an obvious two-voice texture. It isn't a Bach violin solo, but it does make good use of the cetra's idiomatic characteristics. Thanks for posting the video - Doc I was going to play another piece by Ritter, a Rondeau. But in the minor section it has an E flat arpeggio above the fifth position and I just can't get my guittar in tune up there. Perhaps my guittar is particularly poorly fretted. Those guittars with capo holes must have be well fretted. I suspect the Geminiani pieces would be unplayable on my guittar (which may not be untypical). Stuart mail2web.com - Microsoft® Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html myhosting.com - Premium Microsoft® Windows® and Linux web and application hosting - http://link.myhosting.com/myhosting
[CITTERN]
I can suggest two things to look at to resolve intonation issues. First, have a look at the nut. Do the strings lay in the grooves properly? It could be that the top of the nut is curved or that the grooves are not cut properly, so that some or all of the strings don't lay in the groove right up to the edge of the nut. The other thing is to experiment with bridge placement. The theory is that the distance nut to 12th fret and 12th fret to bridge are the same, but that doesn't always work in practice. You might also find that angling the bridge helps intonation as well. Let us know how it goes. Doc I was going to play another piece by Ritter, a Rondeau. But in the minor section it has an E flat arpeggio above the fifth position and I just can't get my guittar in tune up there. Perhaps my guittar is particularly poorly fretted. Those guittars with capo holes must have be well fretted. I suspect the Geminiani pieces would be unplayable on my guittar (which may not be untypical). Stuart mail2web.com - Microsoft® Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html mail2web LIVE Free email based on Microsoft® Exchange technology - http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE
[CITTERN] Re: [CITTERN]
ro...@cetrapublishing.com wrote: I can suggest two things to look at to resolve intonation issues. First, have a look at the nut. Do the strings lay in the grooves properly? It could be that the top of the nut is curved or that the grooves are not cut properly, so that some or all of the strings don't lay in the groove right up to the edge of the nut. The other thing is to experiment with bridge placement. The theory is that the distance nut to 12th fret and 12th fret to bridge are the same, but that doesn't always work in practice. You might also find that angling the bridge helps intonation as well. Let us know how it goes. Doc Thanks. I'll have a go at your suggestions. I hadn't realised just how much out of tune it is above the seventh fret. For example, tuning open first course (g) to second course at fret 3, means that the second course (e) is hopelessly out of tune with first course, top e. It's been a hot day today and the upper strings aren't holding their tuning at all.I suppose the pegs are slipping ever so slightly (even though they been sitting in that pegbox for 250 years. I think the ghost of the original owner is playing with me. Stuart I was going to play another piece by Ritter, a Rondeau. But in the minor section it has an E flat arpeggio above the fifth position and I just can't get my guittar in tune up there. Perhaps my guittar is particularly poorly fretted. Those guittars with capo holes must have be well fretted. I suspect the Geminiani pieces would be unplayable on my guittar (which may not be untypical). Stuart mail2web.com - Microsoft® Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html mail2web LIVE – Free email based on Microsoft® Exchange technology - http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE
[CITTERN] Black Jack and Port Patrick (from Bremner's Instructions 1758)
A couple of Scottish tunes from Bremner (1758) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HlQPIP22-s Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Allemande by D. Ritter
Apart from a couple of publications for a guittar in A (Marella) and one or two for a guittar in G, the repertoire for the English guitar/guittar is in C. And the tutors and instructions all agree on the tuning of the instrument to a C major chord: c-e-g-c-e-g. Some surviving instruments even have the tuning stamped on them. So it's a surprise when D. Ritter, in his 'Lessons for the Guittar' (c.1770) has a footnote on the title page: the Guittar may be played in an easier and more complete manner when the second string in the Bass is tuned to d (c-d-g-c-e-g). And he gives a little exercise to explain how to finger the fifth course to get the e and the f.. Here's a simple Allemande: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrcCrNYY9zo Now this could be just one person's idiosyncratic perspective but Joseph Carpentier, writing in France at this same time, gives this same tuning (for the guitharre angloise) in several places. And there is something a little bit unusual about Ritter's music for the instrument. It is all very simple and unambitious but it treats the guittar differently from most others.Most composers/arrangers (even Straube, Marella, Geminiani) treat the guittar as a melodic instrument which can do some double stopping and chords. Ritter treats the instrument like a lute or guitar: at least a basic melodic line with simple bass accompaniment. Most guittar composers/arrangers seem to have avoided this approach. If a bass line was needed they would write duets. And maybe there is something a bit clunky about Ritter's approach. And, stranger still, his pieces could easily be played in the usual tuning. In fact the Allemande here would be more easily played in the usual tuning. There are some other pieces which treat the guittar more in the manner of Ritter, such as the solos at the end of Straube's collection. But it's very difficult to see any virtue in adopting Ritter (or Carpentier's) tuning. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Closure of Victoria and Albert musical instrument collection
Read and weep... Ed Margerum - Forwarded Message - From: G Chew To: musicology-...@jiscmail.ac.uk Sent: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 19:04:09 + (UTC) Subject: [MUSICOLOGY-ALL] Fw: Closure of Victoria and Albert musical instrument collection Forwarded from the Seventeenth-Century Music list: from Dr Benjamin A. Narvey --- -- Dear Colleagues, I recently received the sad and very extraordinary news that one of the world's major collections of historic musical instruments, that of the Victoria Albert Museum (London) is to permanently close on 22 February 2010. It seems inconceivable that the VA, one of the world's most celebrated and foremost museums, has taken this decision, one that will consign the collection to various other museums and effectively split it up, perhaps forever. I had a meeting with a contact at the museum last week, and it seems the directorate does not wish to invest in the collection which is sorely in need, and has decided instead to turn the space into a pop fashion display. While it is thought that this may bring in greater numbers to the VA, the decision is a real loss to the international music community. In my discussions, it seemed the best way forward was to get in touch with my colleague Guy Dammann who, amongst many other things, is involved in media and could thereby give very public voice to the discontent felt about the VA directorate's decision. His article has been published in tonight's Evening Standard, and can be accessed below: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23795043-music-is-the-lo ser-in-this-v-and-a-gallery-shake-up.do It seems that the decision to close the collection is sadly irreversible, but perhaps this article (and others like it) may plant the seed in the mind of the new museum directorate (expected by 2012). Fingers crossed. Best wishes, Benjamin -- Dr Benjamin A. Narvey Institute of Musical Research School of Advanced Study University of London t +33 (0) 1 44 27 03 44 p/m +33 (0) 6 71 79 98 98 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] contemporary EG depictions?
I'm wondering if anyone knows if there are any depictions of English guittars -- either woodcuts or engravings -- from contemporary treatises or music books? I can't recall ever having seen any, but it doesn't mean they don't exist I'm looking specifically for line-art -- something that is specifically NOT a painting. Thanks, Andrew To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: contemporary EG depictions?
Sure. Bremner's 'Instructions' has a drawing of a guittar, curiously with only three double strings and three single basses. Geminiani also has this image, but his guittar work was also published by Bremner. By the way, Bremner's son, also called Robert, studied guittar with Geminiani. There are also a few images in Edinburgh-based publications by various artists, but not guittar publications. Mainly violin or voice and continuo. Sorry I can't be more specific, but we are stretching my memory back about 20 years... Rob 2010/1/13 Andrew Hartig [1]cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com I'm wondering if anyone knows if there are any depictions of English guittars -- either woodcuts or engravings -- from contemporary treatises or music books? I can't recall ever having seen any, but it doesn't mean they don't exist I'm looking specifically for line-art -- something that is specifically NOT a painting. Thanks, Andrew To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Nanki library on-line
David van Ooijen wrote: Surfacing on this list once in a while: questions about the Nanki Music Library in Japan. Now they have put some of their books on line: http://note.dmc.keio.ac.jp/music-library/nanki/ I don't see the mss available yet, but 500 printed works should keep us happy for a while. David Quite a lot of typical English guitar music (simple arrangements of songs) here in the 'Collection of English Secular Songs and some instrumental pieces' n-7 (16). Some are simply the tune transposed to C or F, some are more elaborate, and some are duets. The song is given first in full, with harmony and then in arrangement for guittar/guitar sometimes also for, or as well as, German flute. Some pieces go up to 10th fret (so presumably not intended for a capo) but I'd guess they were sung with voice doubling. Stuart No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.125/2600 - Release Date: 01/04/10 19:35:00 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] english guitar on EBAY!
Hello all, just to let you know, I've listed an English Guitar on EBAY, as I don't think I'm going to get around to restoring it. christopher -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: D. Ritter and other English guitar things
Hey Stuart, I had my 7-course guittar built after reading Bland's book years ago. There is a 7-course Preston in Paris. I use Ritter's tuning for some pieced as well - it does make a few fingerings a little more logical. Don't forget that Oswald suggests tuning in G as well, suggesting that there were larger instruments about. To me, all of these alternatives to the 6-course C-tuned cittern suggest that there was experiment going on and exchange with the continent. Look at Merchi, who sometimes published the same music arranged for baroque guitar and for cittern in Paris and London. And, curiously, English guitar music of Merchi's, published in London, turns up in cistre music published in Paris. For example, the opening Allegro of Sonata 1 from Merchi's Dodici Suonate for two C-tuned (English) guitars or guitar and violin (published in London) , is the opening Allegro from Sonata 1 for cistre (in A) with simple violin accompaniment in Pollet's publication (in Paris)'Six Sonnates' (by the best authors). The Rondo of Sonata IV by Merchi for solo guitar (also in Dodici Suonate) is an Allegretto in tthe same Sonata. Pollet's cistre arrangements of Merchi's music are much fuller and may sound a bit stodgy perhaps. .. By the way, I've played through all of Marella's cittern music - there are some real gems in both collections in the BL. Doc . So what's that odd-looking piece called Pantomime like!? Also, playing Lesson 33, in C, must be quite brain-crunching, played on an A-tuned instrument (as you are so familiar with the C tuning). And I wonder why the A major tuning never caught on in Britain? And, I've got a note somewhere that Marella lived in Dublin at some point. And the Dublin guittars are all a bit larger than the usual C-tuned guittars. Could some of them have been in A and have played Marella's music? Stuart mail2web LIVE – Free email based on Microsoft® Exchange technology - http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.9/2427 - Release Date: 10/10/09 06:39:00
[CITTERN] Re: D. Ritter and other English guitar things
James Tyler wrote: Hi Stuart, Highly interesting info about Bland, Marella and Ritter. I looked out my photocopy of the Ritter Lessons which was taken from the late Bob Spencer's Collection. It is a later edition published by Longman Broderip (ca. 1770). No mention on the title page of Ritter's tuning instructions, but it does have an interesting Longman Broderip catalogue of musical publications which lists several publications I've not heard of before. Does anyone know if any of these items still exist: Assuni's Ladies Favorite, Carter's Lessons Duets, Citeraeni's Divertiments, Clark's Hymns, Gerlin's Tunes Songs or Menezier Divertiments? There are several other unknowns but the list will get to be too long. James I've seen references to Carter's Lessons, and, I think, Clark's Hymns on the title pages of publications but I don't know if they survive. I was looking at Ghillini di Asuni's 'Lady's Amusement - being an intire new Collection of Favourite French and Italian Songs, Airs, Minuets Marches, yesterday in the BL .Also Asuni's Collection of Duets, Songs and Airs for the Guittar (both printed by Welcker) - fairly typical fare but the latter has four quite interesting-looking Duetti. Asuni published other music, not for guittar. Stuart - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Date: Saturday, October 10, 2009 3:17 pm Subject: [CITTERN] D. Ritter and other English guitar things To: cittern list cittern@cs.dartmouth.edu I went to the British Library today - the first time in years. You can order books online these days! In Bland's First Collection of Twenty Four Airs etc (London) there are duets for 6 string guittar and 7-string guittar or a violin. I don't recall references to 7-string guittars. The lowest note in the music is G below C. So the tuning would be like a French cistre in C. I'm not sure, but I don't think I ever remember coming across a 7-string guittar, nor a reference to one. I looked at Marella's 66 Lessons (for a guittar in A) - with the major and minor in every key. ...but not the sharp or flat keys other than Bb. And about 40 are in A. But they all look very interesting and I'll get a microfilm. There's a bizarre piece called 'Pantomime'. And there are some interesting-looking duos and pieces with thoroughbass (all in A). I looked at D. Ritter's Lessons for the Guittar (Rutherfords, London). Years ago I noted this on the title page: the GUITTAR may be played in an easier more compleat manner when the second string in the BASS is Tuned in D instead of E.. In France, Joseph Carpentier gives the tuning of the guitharre angloise several times as C,D, E, C,E,G. He also mentions a Mr Reithre (+Ritter?) at some points. Some of Ritter's pieces do exploit the D in the bass. Here's one I wrote out today - a Rondeau in G major (acknowledgements to current thread on lute list) first without reverb and second with a bit of reverb which I think gives it a bit more flavour. A bit more practice might help too...! (no reverb) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Ritterstaight.mp3 bit of reverb) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Ritter-reverb.mp3 But other pieces by Ritter - just simple little things - seem to be more difficult with the C-D-E-C-E-G tuning. I doubt that Ritter's tuning was widely used. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.9/2427 - Release Date: 10/10/09 06:39:00
[CITTERN] Cangielosi ren Cittern on eBay
EnvoyA(c) de mon iPhone DA(c)but du message transfA(c)rA(c) : ExpA(c)diteur: eBay [1]e...@ebay.fr Date: 29 septembre 2009 10:35:19 HAEC Destinataire: [2]damien.delgro...@orange.fr Objet: Vous pouvez encore remporter l'objet CITARA - CISTER - CITTERN - CITHER (260480812480) RA(c)pondre A : [3]e...@ebay.fr eBay eBay a envoyA(c) ce message A Damien Delgrossi (cetara_corsa). Le nom que vous avez fourni lors de votre inscription est indiquA(c) pour confirmer que ce message provient d'eBay. [4]En savoir plus [ltCurve.gif] N'attendez plus. La vente de cet objet se termine bientA't. [rtCurve.gif] Bonjour Damien, [s.gif] Vous pouvez encore le remporter. La vente de cet objet se termine bientA't. Si vous voulez cet objet, vous devez enchA(c)rir pour avoir une chance de le remporter. [s.gif] [5]CITARA - CISTER - CITTERN - CITHER [6]CITARA - CISTER - CITTERN - CITHER Prix actuel : 690,00 EUR Fin : 29-sept.-09 15:30:55 Paris [7]Aller dans Mon eBay | [8]Afficher toutes vos Affaires A suivre Vous pouvez encore remporter cet objet [s.gif] [9][btnPlaceabid.gif] SA(c)lectionnez vos prA(c)fA(c)rences de notification par e-mail * Vous souhaitez recevoir moins d'e-mails ? [10]Recevez un e-mail de rA(c)sumA(c) quotidien. Pour d'autres options de rA(c)sumA(c) quotidien par e-mail, accA(c)dez aux [11]prA(c)fA(c)rences de notification par e-mail dans Mon eBay. * Vous ne souhaitez pas recevoir cet e-mail ? [12]Vous dA(c)sinscrire de cet e-mail. __ [13]En savoir plus sur la protection contre les e-mails frauduleux. eBay vous a envoyA(c) cet e-mail A l'adresse [14]damien.delgro...@orange.fr A propos de votre compte sur [15]www.ebay.fr. eBay envoie ces e-mails en fonction des prA(c)fA(c)rences que vous avez dA(c)finies pour votre compte. Pour ne plus recevoir ce message, modifiez vos [16]prA(c)fA(c)rences de notification par e-mail. Le traitement de votre demande peut prendre jusqu'A 14 jours. Pour toute question, veuillez consulter notre [17]RAglement sur le respect de la vie privA(c)e ainsi que nos [18]Conditions d'utilisation. Cet e-mail a A(c)tA(c) envoyA(c) par eBay Europe S.A r.l., qui est en droit d'utiliser ses filiales pour fournir des services eBay. Si vous n'A-ates pas rA(c)sident de l'UE, vous trouverez les coordonnA(c)es de la partie contractante dans les Conditions d'utilisation. Copyright A(c) 2009 eBay Inc. Tous droits rA(c)servA(c)s. Les marques et marques commerciales mentionnA(c)es appartiennent A leurs propriA(c)taires respectifs. eBay et le logo eBay sont des marques dA(c)posA(c)es d'eBay Inc. La sociA(c)tA(c) eBay International AG est situA(c)e au Helvetiastrasse 15/17 - P.O. Box 133, 3000 Berne 6, Suisse. [19]Mention d'impression d'eBay [] -- References Visible links 1. mailto:e...@ebay.fr 2. mailto:damien.delgro...@orange.fr 3. mailto:e...@ebay.fr 4. http://pages.ebay.fr/help/confidence/name-userid-emails.html 5. http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=260480812480ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:FR:1123 6. http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=260480812480ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:FR:1123 7. http://my.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?MyeBayCurrentPage=MyeBaySellingssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:FR:1121 8. http://my.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?MyeBayCurrentPage=MyeBayWatchingssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:FR:1161 9. http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=260480812480ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:FR:1120 10. http://my.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?DigestEmailemailType=11010 11. http://my.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?MyEbayBetaCurrentPage=MyeBayNextNotificationPreferences 12. http://my.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?EmailUnsubscribeemailType=11010 13. http://pages.ebay.fr/education/spooftutorial/index.html 14. mailto:damien.delgro...@orange.fr 15. http://www.ebay.fr/ 16. http://my.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?MyEbayBetaCurrentPage=MyeBayNextNotificationPreferences 17. http://pages.ebay.fr/help/policies/privacy-policy.html 18. http://pages.ebay.fr/help/policies/user-agreement.html 19. http://pages.ebay.fr/aboutebay/contact.html Hidden links: 20. mailto:damien.delgro...@orange.fr 21. mailto:e...@ebay.fr 22. http://www.ebay.fr/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Cittern on ebay
Damien Delgrossi wrote: http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=260480812480ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:FR:1123 Envoyé de mon iPhone How much did it sell for, Damien? The photos were quite dark and it was hard to see details. It looked like a nice instrument but was it a made from a kit, do you think? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.114/2402 - Release Date: 09/29/09 05:54:00
[CITTERN] new edition
I've now added modern folk cittern arrangements of my Twenty-Five 17th-Century Scottish Tunes to the website: [1]www.RMmusicpublications.com On that page follow the link for 'more info' and you will find a free piece from the edition. The full edition will cost you a mere -L-5 (5 UK Pounds), and will be automatically downloaded to you when you have paid via paypal or credit card. The same music appears in the same keys in editions for mandolin and fiddle, allowing group playing. Enjoy! Rob MacKillop -- References 1. http://www.rmmusicpublications.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Thomas Thackray again (again)
Stuart Walsh wrote: Thomas Thackray (of Skeldergate, York) - 'linen weaver and musician' (!) published music for the guittar in the 1760s and 1770s. There are records of him playing with other musicians as far back as 1733 (in the Assembly Rooms in York) but no record of what instrument he played. CORRECTION! He (or his father?) is noted as playing violin in 1734. http://www.btinternet.com/~alan.radford/waithis.htm Haxby published Thackray's Six lessons for the guittar in 1765. His opus 2 of Six Lessons was also published by Haxby, probably in 1770. I think this is his work for guittar: 'A collection of songs and airs by Mr. Thack' (early 1760s) 'Six Lessons for the guittar' (1765) 'Six Lessons for the guittar Op.2' (c.1770) 'A collection of forty four airs properly adapted for one or two guittars' (1772) 'Twelve Divertimenti (op3) (1772) He also composed some minuets. And he died in 1793. Here is Lesson One from 'Six Lessons' - which the British Library date as c.1770, so it's presumably his second set. CORRECTION! It's from 1765, the first set. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk0UGBwJdWk Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.87/2356 - Release Date: 09/09/09 06:53:00
[CITTERN] Re: Thomas Thackray
Hello Stuart, Beautiful music. that is the first time I listen Thackray's music and I like it very much. Congratulations for the interpretation, you're really a great guittar player! Thanks again, Damien - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: cittern list cittern@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 1:11 AM Subject: [CITTERN] Thomas Thackray A little bit is known about Thomas Thackray and his life as a musician in Yorkshire in the second half of the 18th century. He published lessons and airs for the guittar (English guitar). His Forty Four Airs' have simple duets as well as solos. The duet format for English guitar with a second part for another guittar (often specifying a violin as an alternative) was very popular. The second part is usually just a simple, as it were, bass line accompaniment. An accomplished player could probably play both parts on one instrument but the use of two separate instruments has its own unique sound. Here are a couple of simple tunes, a 'minuetto' (Thackray includes both minuets and minuettos) and 'Temple Newsham'. Temple Newsam still exists in Leeds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU3BIzB51kM Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Thomas Thackray
Oups, I wanted to watch it again and youtube said : the use deleted the video... - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: cittern list cittern@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 1:11 AM Subject: [CITTERN] Thomas Thackray A little bit is known about Thomas Thackray and his life as a musician in Yorkshire in the second half of the 18th century. He published lessons and airs for the guittar (English guitar). His Forty Four Airs' have simple duets as well as solos. The duet format for English guitar with a second part for another guittar (often specifying a violin as an alternative) was very popular. The second part is usually just a simple, as it were, bass line accompaniment. An accomplished player could probably play both parts on one instrument but the use of two separate instruments has its own unique sound. Here are a couple of simple tunes, a 'minuetto' (Thackray includes both minuets and minuettos) and 'Temple Newsham'. Temple Newsam still exists in Leeds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU3BIzB51kM Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Thomas Thackray
Damien Delgrossi wrote: Oups, I wanted to watch it again and youtube said : the use deleted the video... Damien Thanks for your comments. It really was a bit rough - even for me! (Especially the first tune, the second was OK enough). I'm uploading a Lesson by Thomas Thackray at the moment. Stuart - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: cittern list cittern@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 1:11 AM Subject: [CITTERN] Thomas Thackray A little bit is known about Thomas Thackray and his life as a musician in Yorkshire in the second half of the 18th century. He published lessons and airs for the guittar (English guitar). His Forty Four Airs' have simple duets as well as solos. The duet format for English guitar with a second part for another guittar (often specifying a violin as an alternative) was very popular. The second part is usually just a simple, as it were, bass line accompaniment. An accomplished player could probably play both parts on one instrument but the use of two separate instruments has its own unique sound. Here are a couple of simple tunes, a 'minuetto' (Thackray includes both minuets and minuettos) and 'Temple Newsham'. Temple Newsam still exists in Leeds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU3BIzB51kM Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.87/2356 - Release Date: 09/09/09 06:53:00
[CITTERN] Thomas Thackray again
Thomas Thackray (of Skeldergate, York) - 'linen weaver and musician' (!) published music for the guittar in the 1760s and 1770s. There are records of him playing with other musicians as far back as 1733 (in the Assembly Rooms in York) but no record of what instrument he played. Haxby published Thackray's Six lessons for the guittar in 1765. His opus 2 of Six Lessons was also published by Haxby, probably in 1770. I think this is his work for guittar: 'A collection of songs and airs by Mr. Thack' (early 1760s) 'Six Lessons for the guittar' (1765) 'Six Lessons for the guittar Op.2' (c.1770) 'A collection of forty four airs properly adapted for one or two guittars' (1772) 'Twelve Divertimenti (op3) (1772) He also composed some minuets. And he died in 1793. Here is Lesson One from 'Six Lessons' - which the British Library date as c.1770, so it's presumably his second set. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk0UGBwJdWk Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Thomas Thackray
A little bit is known about Thomas Thackray and his life as a musician in Yorkshire in the second half of the 18th century. He published lessons and airs for the guittar (English guitar). His Forty Four Airs' have simple duets as well as solos. The duet format for English guitar with a second part for another guittar (often specifying a violin as an alternative) was very popular. The second part is usually just a simple, as it were, bass line accompaniment. An accomplished player could probably play both parts on one instrument but the use of two separate instruments has its own unique sound. Here are a couple of simple tunes, a 'minuetto' (Thackray includes both minuets and minuettos) and 'Temple Newsham'. Temple Newsam still exists in Leeds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU3BIzB51kM Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Did Telemann play the cittern?
Most of Telemann's cantatas have a BC part for a Gallichon. My view is that they are for the large continuo instrument in A (string length in mid 90s) rather than the smaller instrument in D also known as mandora (some sources use the two names interchangeably) with a string length around 70cm M --- On Tue, 1/9/09, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: [CITTERN] Re: Did Telemann play the cittern? To: frnor...@online.no Cc: cittern@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 1 September, 2009, 11:20 PM Frank Nordberg wrote: A connection between Telemann and the mandora is news to me though. Martyn? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Did Telemann play the cittern?
Frank Nordberg wrote: I just stumbled across the Telemann biography at HOASM: http://www.hoasm.org/XIA/XIATelemann.html It says: .. by the age of 10 he had teamed to play the violin, the flute, the zither, and keyboard instruments. .. No sources are quoted. Does anybody know anything about this? Frank Nordberg I suppose a cittern is more likely than a scheitolt-type instrument? There are known connections with Telemann and the mandora, and with duet arrangements for 11-course D-minor lute, but it would be interesting to find a cittern connection. Stuart ** http://www.musicaviva.com http://stores.ebay.com/Nordbergs-Music-Store?refid=store To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.73/2338 - Release Date: 08/31/09 17:52:00
[CITTERN] Re: Did Telemann play the cittern?
Frank Nordberg wrote: A connection between Telemann and the mandora is news to me though. Martyn? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] pacoloni on youtube
The Bacheler Consort plays Pacoloni : [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJa0byWuhpU -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJa0byWuhpU To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] guittar video
I've just uploaded my first 'guittar', English Guitar, 18th-century cittern, cetra video! [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW-KR3yRNjUeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2E youtube%2Ecom%2Fuser%2FBalcarresGuyfeature=player_profilepage The poor instrument had lain unplayed for a few years. Thanks to Darryl 'Strings and Things' Martin, the guittar is singing again. I recorded the three pieces which were still in my memory bank, all from Bremner's Instructions, Edinburgh, 1758. Rob MacKillop -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW-KR3yRNjUeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutube%2Ecom%2Fuser%2FBalcarresGuyfeature=player_profilepage To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: guittar video
Great playing as always, Rob. I hope this means you'll continue to play the guittar more often. Doc On Aug 24, 2009, at 6:40 PM, Rob MacKillop wrote: I've just uploaded my first 'guittar', English Guitar, 18th-century cittern, cetra video! [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW-KR3yRNjUeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2E youtube%2Ecom%2Fuser%2FBalcarresGuyfeature=player_profilepage The poor instrument had lain unplayed for a few years. Thanks to Darryl 'Strings and Things' Martin, the guittar is singing again. I recorded the three pieces which were still in my memory bank, all from Bremner's Instructions, Edinburgh, 1758. Rob MacKillop -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW-KR3yRNjUeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutube%2Ecom%2Fuser%2FBalcarresGuyfeature=player_profilepage To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: guittar video
As we say in my country : Era Ora!!! :-) Congratulations and thanks for sharing it! Damien - Original Message - From: Rob MacKillop luteplay...@googlemail.com To: Cittern cittern@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 6:40 PM Subject: [CITTERN] guittar video I've just uploaded my first 'guittar', English Guitar, 18th-century cittern, cetra video! [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW-KR3yRNjUeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2E youtube%2Ecom%2Fuser%2FBalcarresGuyfeature=player_profilepage The poor instrument had lain unplayed for a few years. Thanks to Darryl 'Strings and Things' Martin, the guittar is singing again. I recorded the three pieces which were still in my memory bank, all from Bremner's Instructions, Edinburgh, 1758. Rob MacKillop -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW-KR3yRNjUeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutube%2Ecom%2Fuser%2FBalcarresGuyfeature=player_profilepage To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: guittar video
Rob MacKillop wrote: I've just uploaded my first 'guittar', English Guitar, 18th-century cittern, cetra video! [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW-KR3yRNjUeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2E youtube%2Ecom%2Fuser%2FBalcarresGuyfeature=player_profilepage The poor instrument had lain unplayed for a few years. Thanks to Darryl 'Strings and Things' Martin, the guittar is singing again. I recorded the three pieces which were still in my memory bank, all from Bremner's Instructions, Edinburgh, 1758. Rob MacKillop Great playing! Very enjoyable. Stuart -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW-KR3yRNjUeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutube%2Ecom%2Fuser%2FBalcarresGuyfeature=player_profilepage To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.65/2322 - Release Date: 08/23/09 18:03:00
[CITTERN] Re: guittar video
On 24 Aug 2009 18:08, Doc Rossi ro...@cetrapublishing.com wrote: I hope this means you'll continue to play the guittar more often. I've no idea. No plans for it. Mainly playing the banjo these days...hanging out at the ning minstrelbanjo site and the ning classic-banjo site. I enjoyed playing it again though. I think we both needed a rest from each other. Maybe I'll work up an Oswald divertimenti for youtube... Rob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: guittar video
I've just uploaded my first 'guittar', English Guitar, 18th-century cittern, cetra video! [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW-KR3yRNjUeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2E youtube%2Ecom%2Fuser%2FBalcarresGuyfeature=player_profilepage The poor instrument had lain unplayed for a few years. Thanks to Darryl 'Strings and Things' Martin, the guittar is singing again. I recorded the three pieces which were still in my memory bank, all from Bremner's Instructions, Edinburgh, 1758. Rob MacKillop A while ago I tried to send: Great playing! Very enjoyable. Stuart ...but it seems to have gone into an abyss. -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW-KR3yRNjUeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutube%2Ecom%2Fuser%2FBalcarresGuyfeature=player_profilepage To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.65/2322 - Release Date: 08/23/09 18:03:00
[CITTERN] Re: guittar video
Bravo! You're a great 18th Century wire-strung guittar player! andy r On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 12:40 PM, Rob MacKillop [1]luteplay...@googlemail.com wrote: I've just uploaded my first 'guittar', English Guitar, 18th-century cittern, cetra video! [1][2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW-KR3yRNjUeurl=http%3A%2F%2F www%2E youtube%2Ecom%2Fuser%2FBalcarresGuyfeature=player_profilepage The poor instrument had lain unplayed for a few years. Thanks to Darryl 'Strings and Things' Martin, the guittar is singing again. I recorded the three pieces which were still in my memory bank, all from Bremner's Instructions, Edinburgh, 1758. Rob MacKillop -- References 1. [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW-KR3yRNjUeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww% 2Eyoutube%2Ecom%2Fuser%2FBalcarresGuyfeature=player_profilepage To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:luteplay...@googlemail.com 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW-KR3yRNjUeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2E 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW-KR3yRNjUeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutube%2Ecom%2Fuser%2FBalcarresGuyfeature=player_profilepage 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch- Hintz - English guitar(guittar)
Andrew Rutherford wrote: Here's the quote from Hintz, from the Public Advertiser, Mar 17, 1766: that he has, after many Years Study and Application in endeavouring to bring this favourite Instrument the Guittar (being the first Inventor) still to a greater perfection in regard to tuning and keeping the same in Tune, which has always been a principal Defect as well as inconvenient, has now found out, on a Principal entirely new, several Methods, whereby it is much easier and exacter tuned, and also remains much longer in Tune than by any Method hitherto known.^53 I fished this out of Lanie Graf's article. He's talking about his new tuning machine but doesn't explain how it works. ( People have noted that 1766 seems rather late to be inventing a tuning machine for the guittar; that Preston had already been there. Do we know that for certain?) Anyway, he throws in parenthetically that he was it's first inventor It's interesting that ' a principal defect' is that it's hard to get (and keep) these things (EGs) in tune. I'd certainly agree! Some instruction books just offer a tuning fork method (and go on to say that nothing could be easier). Your quote suggests that keeping EGs in tune is a problem too whereas it's usually trotted out that wire-strung instruments easily keep their tuning. (I think this is partly true only.) Why would 1766 be late for a tuning machine? The EG was new in the 1750s. Tuning mechanisms are a completely new invention. It's a generalisation but weren't all plucked instruments tuned by pegs until the EG (emerging in the 1750s)? Stuart On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: Andrew Rutherford wrote: Re the cittern and the Moravians, Lanie Graf published something in a recent Moravian Archives journal all about citterns, Moravians and Frederick Hintz, the furniture maker turned guittar maker. You can find the relevent (sp?) info on her ning page. By the way, Hintz claimed to have invented the English guitar. I think he may have invented the major-chord tuning for the cittern when he moved to England... andy r Andy What is the reference for the claim by Hintz, that he invented the English guitar? And what date? I think the chordal tuning may well pre-date the 1750s. But definitely something happened in Britain the 1750s.Well lots of things happened then - but in the world of citterns. Several contemporary accounts describe the (English) guitar/guittar as new or newly introduced, and, as far as I know, no instruments and no publications date from before the 1750s. And the typical (English) guitar/guittar has a chordal tuning, on six courses of wire strings with the top four courses paired and the bottom two, single. As far as I know, no cittern with that tuning and stringing arrangement exists before the 1750s. And the instrument tended to be called a guitar/guittar and the music is not in tablature. I've tended to suppose that the immediate origin is a four-course instrument - four pairs of strings, tuned chordally, gceg, probably German, probably played with the fingers, not a plectrum.And then someone in Britain, probably in London, added the two single basses and somehow started a huge fashion for the instrument among the well-off. So that many, many instruments were made and lots and lots of music published for the next 20-30+ years. Maybe Hintz was the man! Maybe he thought of the idea of an elegant but simple instrument for well-off amateurs. He added two single basses to extend the range of notes of C major. He discarded the tablature concept and just had almost everything in C major. Hintz made instruments, he published some music and, I can't remember, but perhaps he was a publisher of music too. But he (or whoever it was) must have had very good connections for the fashion to take off so well amongst the more well-to-do. Hintz also published some hymn tunes. I wrote out a few of them ages ago. They are quite unlike most EG music, three-part block chords, rather than running single lines. But they're not like the Moravian choralbuch either. Stuart. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.61/2314 - Release Date: 08/19/09 18:06:00
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights]
Thank you for this and especially for reminding me of the Moravian church (in particular the missions to North America in the 18thC). This spurred me to search more about it and I see that it was indeed originally located in Bohemia and Moravia but that after counter reformation persecution a branch was established in Herrnhut (Saxony) in 1722 which, as you say, seems to have become the missionary hub. Since the mandora/gallichon was only developed in the very late 17thC, then you're quite right to suggest that by this time there'd probably have been few direct links with the original Bohemian/Moravian locations and mandora use in that part of the world. Nevertheless the mandora did spread pretty rapidly throughout German speaking (that is through the educated classes) lands and by 1750 would have been known in Saxony. What I meant by the tablature looking like mandora music, was that melody and bass are often seperated by one ot more courses which is, of course, a feature only really possible if plucked with fingers. And here I show my ignorance of the cittern: are there any mid 18thC sources unequivocally for the cittern that require such finger plucking? - I had supposed it was all plectrum. Contrarywise, your point about the use of the cittern in the Moravian church in North America is equally telling - how do we know about this? I looked on the modern church's website but couldn't find a link. Martyn )--- On Tue, 18/8/09, Andrew Rutherford lutewo...@gmail.com wrote: From: Andrew Rutherford lutewo...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights] To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Date: Tuesday, 18 August, 2009, 2:09 AM Dear folks, Could be for mandora, the MS doesn't specify the instrument, but the Moravian church has a tradition of using the cittern in worship. There are references to people playing citterns in various other settings, such as funerals or sickrooms. And there are paintings of what appear to be lute-backed citterns (the strings are attached at the base and run over a floating bridge, so probably not gut-strung) in the hands of Moravian girls. (look at Lanie Graf's page on the ning site- she's a real Moravian!) By Moravian we're talking about the Protestant religious sect, not necessarily the country. The modern Moravian Church developed in Herrnhut, (in eastern Germany) in the 1720s and sent missionaries all over the world. The Pennsylvania bunch was well established by the 1750s, and there are mentions of people using citterns (Zitter, I think they called it) for various purposes; the cittern and harp were particularly important. The MS does specify the pitches of the six courses, on the first page, I think. And, there's the lute-backed instrument in the Moravian museum in Nazareth PA, which could be set up with six courses (it has 12 pegs). It could be tuned to this pitch, with a 50cm stringlength. andy r On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 3:11 AM, Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Andrew and Stuart, Having just now looked at the tablature, I wonder if the the instrument intended was in fact the mandora rather than the cittern. Altho' most mid-18thC mandora tunings are similar to the 'spanish' guitar intervals (except mostly for only a tone between 5th and 6th courses) there are a number of sources which require odd tunings - this may be one such. And, of course, Moravia and Bohemia was the birthplace and heartland of the mandora/gallichon - as also witnessed by the quantity of surviving mandora tablatures in monasteries there. Certainly the tablature looks exactly as other contemporary mandora tablatures but I'm not particularly knowledgable about the cittern of the same date in Moravia/central Europe: was it a common instrument? - more so than the popular mandora? Martyn --- On Sun, 16/8/09, Andrew Hartig [2]cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com wrote: From: Andrew Hartig [3]cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com Subject: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights] To: [4]citt...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 16 August, 2009, 7:51 PM I will need to check with Lanie Graf about the rights for performance. I think it may be a semantic issue of what qualifies as music. I believe the permission should be sought only for the reproduction of the tablature (music) of physical manuscript (e.g. you would need to seek permission if you were to create an edition or include a photograph as part of a book). Let me find out, and sorry for the confusion. Thanks also to all of those who have taken an interest in this
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch- missing pages?
Dear Andrew, Further to this, I see two pages with music are missing: 1. That containing Chorales 32 - 35 (fol 8v?) 2. Containing polonaises 9 - 10 (fol 17?) I see they're mentioned in the MS description which you also kindly copied. Martyn --- On Tue, 18/8/09, Andrew Rutherford lutewo...@gmail.com wrote: From: Andrew Rutherford lutewo...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights] To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Date: Tuesday, 18 August, 2009, 2:09 AM Dear folks, Could be for mandora, the MS doesn't specify the instrument, but the Moravian church has a tradition of using the cittern in worship. There are references to people playing citterns in various other settings, such as funerals or sickrooms. And there are paintings of what appear to be lute-backed citterns (the strings are attached at the base and run over a floating bridge, so probably not gut-strung) in the hands of Moravian girls. (look at Lanie Graf's page on the ning site- she's a real Moravian!) By Moravian we're talking about the Protestant religious sect, not necessarily the country. The modern Moravian Church developed in Herrnhut, (in eastern Germany) in the 1720s and sent missionaries all over the world. The Pennsylvania bunch was well established by the 1750s, and there are mentions of people using citterns (Zitter, I think they called it) for various purposes; the cittern and harp were particularly important. The MS does specify the pitches of the six courses, on the first page, I think. And, there's the lute-backed instrument in the Moravian museum in Nazareth PA, which could be set up with six courses (it has 12 pegs). It could be tuned to this pitch, with a 50cm stringlength. andy r On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 3:11 AM, Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Andrew and Stuart, Having just now looked at the tablature, I wonder if the the instrument intended was in fact the mandora rather than the cittern. Altho' most mid-18thC mandora tunings are similar to the 'spanish' guitar intervals (except mostly for only a tone between 5th and 6th courses) there are a number of sources which require odd tunings - this may be one such. And, of course, Moravia and Bohemia was the birthplace and heartland of the mandora/gallichon - as also witnessed by the quantity of surviving mandora tablatures in monasteries there. Certainly the tablature looks exactly as other contemporary mandora tablatures but I'm not particularly knowledgable about the cittern of the same date in Moravia/central Europe: was it a common instrument? - more so than the popular mandora? Martyn --- On Sun, 16/8/09, Andrew Hartig [2]cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com wrote: From: Andrew Hartig [3]cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com Subject: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights] To: [4]citt...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 16 August, 2009, 7:51 PM I will need to check with Lanie Graf about the rights for performance. I think it may be a semantic issue of what qualifies as music. I believe the permission should be sought only for the reproduction of the tablature (music) of physical manuscript (e.g. you would need to seek permission if you were to create an edition or include a photograph as part of a book). Let me find out, and sorry for the confusion. Thanks also to all of those who have taken an interest in this music! Andrew At 01:57 AM 8/16/2009, you wrote: Hello Stuart, That is strange nobody can play a music which is almost 300 years old. In France, at this age, music is public with no more rights. I am probably wrong, but I don't see well the problem. Damien - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh [1][5]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Andrew Hartig [2][6]cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com Cc: [3][7]citt...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 11:42 PM Subject: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch Stuart Walsh wrote: Andrew Hartig wrote: Dear all, Some time back Andy Rutherford had told us about a manuscript book (BMB4) in the Moravian Archives of Bethlehem, PA (USA) for 6-course cittern, tuned GCEgbe. Andy managed to get over there to take some photos, and after quite a few emails with the folks at the Moravian Archives, I am pleased to announce that Andy's photographs of the book are now available for public download from my web site. I have compiled all of his
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [some music]
I'm assuming that the sentence in the intro to Moravian Choralbuch, here: http://www.cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/index.html The manuscript and its music may not be reproduced or published without the consent of the Moravian Archives refers to the music notation, not attempts - puny amateur attempts - to play a few of these pieces. It doesn't really look to me that the pieces are arranged in order of difficulty. I've tried playing through them, not unfortunately on a cittern, but on a very basic guitar (in fact a Russian guitar with the usual very close string spacings). Perhaps, as has been suggested, these chorales are entirely functional - for accompanying singing - and not ever for purely instrumental performance. The fermata sign is used extensively but when I played the pieces, pausing a bit more (perhaps I'm misunderstanding this?), the music sounded wrong. With a singer - or singers - long pauses would work fine - as I think happens in hymns. And the singer or singers would know the melody and the words... over a lifetime. But it's a shame to have a MS of music and not actually try and play some of it. The pieces are quite short - presumably they have many verses? Now hymn settings with chords on every beat are fine on a keyboard, but not so easy on a fretboard and, I think, chorale settings like this aren't common on plucked instruments. In that respect they are quite hard to play and sound a bit clunky. But that could be just me! I've got four melodies. Firstly I've played them with the tuning GCEgbe. But this is on a guitar with a string length of 65cms. In cittern terms, that would be a big instrument? And it makes some of stretches quite challenging. The close position, low position A minor chords sound impressive. Andy mentioned a possible string length of 50cms so I put on a capo at the third fret giving a string length of about 54cms. So here are four of the chorales, first at modern GCEgbe pitch http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No8.mp3 http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No13.mp3 http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3 http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No43.mp3 and here, at the higher pitch http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No8a.mp3 http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No13a.mp3 http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40a.mp3 http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No43a.mp3 and finally a Minuet from the end of the book: http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3a.mp3 with authentic 18th century plane in the background. Some of these chorales sound sort of familiar and I think there is a long tradition in Germany of sturdy chorale type tunes. I may well be misinterpreting the music and I don't mind having this pointed out! If any offence is taken, I'll remove the files. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights]
Re the cittern and the Moravians, Lanie Graf published something in a recent Moravian Archives journal all about citterns, Moravians and Frederick Hintz, the furniture maker turned guittar maker. You can find the relevent (sp?) info on her ning page. By the way, Hintz claimed to have invented the English guitar. I think he may have invented the major-chord tuning for the cittern when he moved to England... andy r On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 4:03 AM, Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Thank you for this and especially for reminding me of the Moravian church (in particular the missions to North America in the 18thC). This spurred me to search more about it and I see that it was indeed originally located in Bohemia and Moravia but that after counter reformation persecution a branch was established in Herrnhut (Saxony) in 1722 which, as you say, seems to have become the missionary hub. Since the mandora/gallichon was only developed in the very late 17thC, then you're quite right to suggest that by this time there'd probably have been few direct links with the original Bohemian/Moravian locations and mandora use in that part of the world. Nevertheless the mandora did spread pretty rapidly throughout German speaking (that is through the educated classes) lands and by 1750 would have been known in Saxony. What I meant by the tablature looking like mandora music, was that melody and bass are often seperated by one ot more courses which is, of course, a feature only really possible if plucked with fingers. And here I show my ignorance of the cittern: are there any mid 18thC sources unequivocally for the cittern that require such finger plucking? - I had supposed it was all plectrum. Contrarywise, your point about the use of the cittern in the Moravian church in North America is equally telling - how do we know about this? I looked on the modern church's website but couldn't find a link. Martyn )--- On Tue, 18/8/09, Andrew Rutherford [2]lutewo...@gmail.com wrote: From: Andrew Rutherford [3]lutewo...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights] To: Martyn Hodgson [4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Date: Tuesday, 18 August, 2009, 2:09 AM Dear folks, Could be for mandora, the MS doesn't specify the instrument, but the Moravian church has a tradition of using the cittern in worship. There are references to people playing citterns in various other settings, such as funerals or sickrooms. And there are paintings of what appear to be lute-backed citterns (the strings are attached at the base and run over a floating bridge, so probably not gut-strung) in the hands of Moravian girls. (look at Lanie Graf's page on the ning site- she's a real Moravian!) By Moravian we're talking about the Protestant religious sect, not necessarily the country. The modern Moravian Church developed in Herrnhut, (in eastern Germany) in the 1720s and sent missionaries all over the world. The Pennsylvania bunch was well established by the 1750s, and there are mentions of people using citterns (Zitter, I think they called it) for various purposes; the cittern and harp were particularly important. The MS does specify the pitches of the six courses, on the first page, I think. And, there's the lute-backed instrument in the Moravian museum in Nazareth PA, which could be set up with six courses (it has 12 pegs). It could be tuned to this pitch, with a 50cm stringlength. andy r On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 3:11 AM, Martyn Hodgson [1][5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Andrew and Stuart, Having just now looked at the tablature, I wonder if the the instrument intended was in fact the mandora rather than the cittern. Altho' most mid-18thC mandora tunings are similar to the 'spanish' guitar intervals (except mostly for only a tone between 5th and 6th courses) there are a number of sources which require odd tunings - this may be one such. And, of course, Moravia and Bohemia was the birthplace and heartland of the mandora/gallichon - as also witnessed by the quantity of surviving mandora tablatures in monasteries there. Certainly the tablature looks exactly as other contemporary mandora tablatures but I'm not particularly knowledgable about the cittern of the same date in Moravia/central Europe: was it a common instrument? - more so than the popular mandora? Martyn --- On Sun, 16/8/09, Andrew Hartig
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [some music]
Bravo! I agree about the order of difficulty business. That came from somebody's doctoral thesis that briefly mentioned this MS... andy r On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 1:55 PM, Stuart Walsh [1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: I'm assuming that the sentence in the intro to Moravian Choralbuch, here: [2]http://www.cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/index.html The manuscript and its music may not be reproduced or published without the consent of the Moravian Archives refers to the music notation, not attempts - puny amateur attempts - to play a few of these pieces. It doesn't really look to me that the pieces are arranged in order of difficulty. I've tried playing through them, not unfortunately on a cittern, but on a very basic guitar (in fact a Russian guitar with the usual very close string spacings). Perhaps, as has been suggested, these chorales are entirely functional - for accompanying singing - and not ever for purely instrumental performance. The fermata sign is used extensively but when I played the pieces, pausing a bit more (perhaps I'm misunderstanding this?), the music sounded wrong. With a singer - or singers - long pauses would work fine - as I think happens in hymns. And the singer or singers would know the melody and the words... over a lifetime. But it's a shame to have a MS of music and not actually try and play some of it. The pieces are quite short - presumably they have many verses? Now hymn settings with chords on every beat are fine on a keyboard, but not so easy on a fretboard and, I think, chorale settings like this aren't common on plucked instruments. In that respect they are quite hard to play and sound a bit clunky. But that could be just me! I've got four melodies. Firstly I've played them with the tuning GCEgbe. But this is on a guitar with a string length of 65cms. In cittern terms, that would be a big instrument? And it makes some of stretches quite challenging. The close position, low position A minor chords sound impressive. Andy mentioned a possible string length of 50cms so I put on a capo at the third fret giving a string length of about 54cms. So here are four of the chorales, first at modern GCEgbe pitch [3]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No8.mp3 [4]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No13.mp3 [5]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3 [6]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No43.mp3 and here, at the higher pitch [7]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No8a.mp3 [8]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No13a.mp3 [9]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40a.mp3 [10]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No43a.mp3 and finally a Minuet from the end of the book: [11]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3a.mp3 with authentic 18th century plane in the background. Some of these chorales sound sort of familiar and I think there is a long tradition in Germany of sturdy chorale type tunes. I may well be misinterpreting the music and I don't mind having this pointed out! If any offence is taken, I'll remove the files. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. http://www.cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/index.html 3. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No8.mp3 4. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No13.mp3 5. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3 6. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No43.mp3 7. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No8a.mp3 8. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No13a.mp3 9. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40a.mp3 10. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No43a.mp3 11. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3a.mp3 12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights]
Dear Andrew and Stuart, Having just now looked at the tablature, I wonder if the the instrument intended was in fact the mandora rather than the cittern. Altho' most mid-18thC mandora tunings are similar to the 'spanish' guitar intervals (except mostly for only a tone between 5th and 6th courses) there are a number of sources which require odd tunings - this may be one such. And, of course, Moravia and Bohemia was the birthplace and heartland of the mandora/gallichon - as also witnessed by the quantity of surviving mandora tablatures in monasteries there. Certainly the tablature looks exactly as other contemporary mandora tablatures but I'm not particularly knowledgable about the cittern of the same date in Moravia/central Europe: was it a common instrument? - more so than the popular mandora? Martyn --- On Sun, 16/8/09, Andrew Hartig cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com wrote: From: Andrew Hartig cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com Subject: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights] To: cittern@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 16 August, 2009, 7:51 PM I will need to check with Lanie Graf about the rights for performance. I think it may be a semantic issue of what qualifies as music. I believe the permission should be sought only for the reproduction of the tablature (music) of physical manuscript (e.g. you would need to seek permission if you were to create an edition or include a photograph as part of a book). Let me find out, and sorry for the confusion. Thanks also to all of those who have taken an interest in this music! Andrew At 01:57 AM 8/16/2009, you wrote: Hello Stuart, That is strange nobody can play a music which is almost 300 years old. In France, at this age, music is public with no more rights. I am probably wrong, but I don't see well the problem. Damien - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh [1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Andrew Hartig [2]cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com Cc: [3]citt...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 11:42 PM Subject: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch Stuart Walsh wrote: Andrew Hartig wrote: Dear all, Some time back Andy Rutherford had told us about a manuscript book (BMB4) in the Moravian Archives of Bethlehem, PA (USA) for 6-course cittern, tuned GCEgbe. Andy managed to get over there to take some photos, and after quite a few emails with the folks at the Moravian Archives, I am pleased to announce that Andy's photographs of the book are now available for public download from my web site. I have compiled all of his photos into a single PDF (25 MB). You can get to it from the Music Files page of the Renaissance Cittern Site, [1][4]http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/ (scroll down to the box for 18th century music), where perhaps you may also find something else of interest. Special thanks again to Lanie Graf and all the other fine people of the Moravian Archives and Andy Rutherford for working together to make this possible! -Andrew Very interesting and a great resource. Thanks Andrew. There's lots to ponder. For example the funny little 11 sign, which is perhaps an ornament. And these settings include the tune, as sung? The chorale settings seem (after a quick look) quite full, with voice leading etc. No 40 sounds vaguely familiar. Here's a quick recording on a factory-made Russian guitar, but in the GCEgbe tuning. A lot of the pieces are in C major, even though the tuning isn't fully chordal. [2][5]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3 (deleted - just read The manuscript and its music may not be reproduced or published without the consent of the Moravian Archives. Sorry!) And here's one of the little dance tunes at the end (with a rather glaring mistake in the repeat of the second strain!): [3][6]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3.mp3 (deleted) I think it was Rob who said that James Tyler claimed that the English guitar (guittar) has its origins in Germany. I haven't seen his (Tyler's) Evora paper. I looked at a link to the Evora papers but it was dead. Anyway, I think Germany is a likely contender for what got makers in Britain going in the 1750s. But the cittern in Germany itself seems not to have got involved in the 'guittar' fashion. And the music that exists (as far as I know) is in 'old-fashioned' tablature. Boetticher (if I've spelt his name correctly) mentions some four-course music c.1750s and there's the Bunsold tablature and now this. Stuart
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights]
In the Storm Ms. you will see the 11 or || (two vertical strokes) in some of the pieces. The #2 Menuet, for example, uses that symbol in the second section. -- R On Aug 17, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote: Martyn Hodgson wrote: Dear Andrew and Stuart, Having just now looked at the tablature, I wonder if the the instrument intended was in fact the mandora rather than the cittern. Altho' most mid-18thC mandora tunings are similar to the 'spanish' guitar intervals (except mostly for only a tone between 5th and 6th courses) there are a number of sources which require odd tunings - this may be one such. And, of course, Moravia and Bohemia was the birthplace and heartland of the mandora/gallichon - as also witnessed by the quantity of surviving mandora tablatures in monasteries there. Certainly the tablature looks exactly as other contemporary mandora tablatures but I'm not particularly knowledgable about the cittern of the same date in Moravia/central Europe: was it a common instrument? - more so than the popular mandora? Martyn I haven't seen many mandora tablatures but I agree that this Moravian tablature looks very similar. Couldn't that be just the tablature style of the time and place - whatever the instrument? Does mandora tablature use the little ornament thing that looks like a tiny '11'? I think evidence for the popularity of the cittern in central Europe is sparse. Some instruments (including arch-citterns) survive and a few tablatures. The 'waldzithern' in Germany and Switzerland didn't take off until after 1800. I can't remember why the Moravian tablature is attributed to the cittern. Andrew will remind us. But the tuning (or the intervals) for the Moravian tablature is for a known tuning for the cithrinchen/bell cittern. It's probably not relevant but Rocky Mjos produced an edition of Norwegian cittern pieces for this tuning from the 1790s. And there is a facsimile of one page of the tablature on page 6. *http://tinyurl.com/mbf5ex * --- On Sun, 16/8/09, Andrew Hartig cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com wrote: From: Andrew Hartig cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com Subject: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights] To: cittern@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 16 August, 2009, 7:51 PM I will need to check with Lanie Graf about the rights for performance. I think it may be a semantic issue of what qualifies as music. I believe the permission should be sought only for the reproduction of the tablature (music) of physical manuscript (e.g. you would need to seek permission if you were to create an edition or include a photograph as part of a book). Let me find out, and sorry for the confusion. Thanks also to all of those who have taken an interest in this music! Andrew At 01:57 AM 8/16/2009, you wrote: Hello Stuart, That is strange nobody can play a music which is almost 300 years old. In France, at this age, music is public with no more rights. I am probably wrong, but I don't see well the problem. Damien - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh [1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Andrew Hartig [2]cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com Cc: [3]citt...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 11:42 PM Subject: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch Stuart Walsh wrote: Andrew Hartig wrote: Dear all, Some time back Andy Rutherford had told us about a manuscript book (BMB4) in the Moravian Archives of Bethlehem, PA (USA) for 6-course cittern, tuned GCEgbe. Andy managed to get over there to take some photos, and after quite a few emails with the folks at the Moravian Archives, I am pleased to announce that Andy's photographs of the book are now available for public download from my web site. I have compiled all of his photos into a single PDF (25 MB). You can get to it from the Music Files page of the Renaissance Cittern Site, [1][4]http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/ (scroll down to the box for 18th century music), where perhaps you may also find something else of interest. Special thanks again to Lanie Graf and all the other fine people of the Moravian Archives and Andy Rutherford for working together to make this possible! -Andrew Very interesting and a great resource. Thanks Andrew. There's lots to ponder. For example the funny little 11 sign, which is perhaps an ornament. And these settings include the tune, as sung? The chorale settings seem (after a quick look) quite full, with voice leading etc. No 40 sounds vaguely familiar. Here's a quick
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights]
Stuart Walsh wrote: I haven't seen many mandora tablatures but I agree that this Moravian tablature looks very similar. Couldn't that be just the tablature style of the time and place - whatever the instrument? Probably. I can't see any reason why tablature notation style would differ between different instruments really. I can't remember why the Moravian tablature is attributed to the cittern. Andrew will remind us. I'm neither Andrew nor Andrew but I have kept the post where Andrew R. first brught up the Moravian ms. He said: There is a book of chorales in tablature from c.1750 in the Moravian Archives in Bethlehem PA, that may be for cittern. In other words, he wasn't at that time absolutely sure what instrument the music was itnended for. But apparently the manuscript came with a six course cittern and at least one painting that included a lady playing such an instrument. There are photos both of the instrumeng and the painting at ning. But the tuning (or the intervals) for the Moravian tablature is for a known tuning for the cithrinchen/bell cittern. It's probably not relevant but Rocky Mjos produced an edition of Norwegian cittern pieces for this tuning from the 1790s. As far as I know, the curious maj7 tuning is known from the Moravian ms, the Storm ms., two old Hamburger cithrinchen manuscripts (mss 40622 and 40268 in Biblioteka Jagiellonska, Krakow) and Johann Arnold Vockerodt's description of the Hamburgerr cittinchen in his 1718 book Gründlicher Musikalischer Unter-Richt. Of these sources only the Moravian ms. has the slightest possibility of having been written for an other instrument than a cittern. So all the evidence we have so far points toward a cittern but of course, we still don't have absolute proof. Frank Nordberg http://www.musicaviva.com http://stores.ebay.com/Nordbergs-Music-Store?refid=store To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights]
Frank Nordberg wrote: I have kept the post where Andrew R. first brught up the Moravian ms. He said: There is a book of chorales in tablature from c.1750 in the Moravian Archives in Bethlehem PA, that may be for cittern. In other words, he wasn't at that time absolutely sure what instrument the music was itnended for. But apparently the manuscript came with a six course cittern and at least one painting that included a lady playing such an instrument. There are photos both of the instrumeng and the painting at ning. I'm not joined up to this ning thing - and so I'm in the position of anyone searching the Internet for information on citterns - the information is hidden. Is the instrument in the ning photo (and, presumably in the painting) a bell cittern? Is it tiny - or large - like Bellman's? And, if not (pace the 'late' 1790s Storm MS) citterns are more likely to have been tuned chordally by the mid 18th century? As far as I know, the curious maj7 tuning is known from the Moravian ms, the Storm ms., two old Hamburger cithrinchen manuscripts (mss 40622 and 40268 in Biblioteka Jagiellonska, Krakow) and Johann Arnold Vockerodt's description of the Hamburgerr cittinchen in his 1718 book Gründlicher Musikalischer Unter-Richt. Of these sources only the Moravian ms. has the slightest possibility of having been written for an other instrument than a cittern. That's a very interesting summary. I think James Tyler (or Donald Gill?) has somewhere mentioned these Hamburger cithrinchen MSS. And described the music as simple, single line, plectrum stuff? Definitely not writing in parts, like the Moravian chorales. (The bell cittern was, I think, popular in Britain in the 17th century. Didn't Talbot write about it?) The Moravian tablatures don't indicate pitch so I don't know how Andrew has concluded that the tuning is GCEgbe. So all the evidence we have so far points toward a cittern but of course, we still don't have absolute proof. 'Absolute proof' sounds just a bit too tricky, but reasonable conjecture might be more attainable. The evidence, then, is the tuning - and that only from two old Hamburger cithrinchen MSS (for a small instrument, perhaps played in a rather different way). And some iconography that only might be relevant.So maybe the tablature really is for the more popular mandora. But then again there's the Bunsold MS of chorales for cittern - but in a chordal tuning not the 'maj7 'tuning. Fancy part writing isn't generally the cittern's strongest point. Curious. Stuart Frank Nordberg http://www.musicaviva.com http://stores.ebay.com/Nordbergs-Music-Store?refid=store To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.58/2309 - Release Date: 08/17/09 06:08:00
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights]
Stuart Walsh wrote: I'm not joined up to this ning thing I can undrstand that. I too prefer the maillist. ;-) - and so I'm in the position of anyone searching the Internet for information on citterns - the information is hidden. Is the instrument in the ning photo (and, presumably in the painting) a bell cittern? Woops! Seems the photos aren't there anymore. At least I can't find 'em. The instrument in the painting was a bell cittern and I'm pretty sure the one preserved in the Moravian museum was too. Is it tiny - or large - like Bellman's? Ah, that reminds me! I never got the dimensions of Bellman's cittern from the Stockholm museum. Perhaps I should contact them again. (The portrait of Bellman turnsout to be worthless in this respect. It was quite common for painters at that time to scale the size of objects up or down to fit the composition of the painting so the fact that it looks so huge in the picture doesn't really mean anything.) And, if not (pace the 'late' 1790s Storm MS) citterns are more likely to have been tuned chordally by the mid 18th century? I got the three German sources I listed from studia-instrumentorum.de and I can only quote what dr. Michel says at that site. The oldest of the two manuscripts are dated 1664, the other c. 1700 while Vockerodt's reference is - as mentioned - 1718. So we're talking late 17th and early 18th century here. Only Vockerodt, the latest of the three sources, mentions open chord tunings as an alternative. 'Absolute proof' sounds just a bit too tricky, You're right. The Storm ms. and the German sources all clearly state they're about citterns but apparently the Moravian ms. is not that helpful. The only way to determine beyond any doubt what instrument the music was intended for, would be to connect it historically to one specific instrument and that's easier said than done. So maybe the tablature really is for the more popular mandora. That's still a possibility. However, the evidence connecting it to the cittern may be strong or weak, but at the moment it's definitely far stronger than any connection we have to the mandora. Fancy part writing isn't generally the cittern's strongest point. That's true. But perhaps the North Gernab maj7 tuning was developed especially to make multipart playing easier? Frank To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch (chorales and hymns)
Andrew Hartig wrote: Dear all, Some time back Andy Rutherford had told us about a manuscript book (BMB4) in the Moravian Archives of Bethlehem, PA (USA) for 6-course cittern, tuned GCEgbe. Andy managed to get over there to take some photos, and after quite a few emails with the folks at the Moravian Archives, I am pleased to announce that Andy's photographs of the book are now available for public download from my web site. I have compiled all of his photos into a single PDF (25 MB). You can get to it from the Music Files page of the Renaissance Cittern Site, http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/ (scroll down to the box for 18th century music), where perhaps you may also find something else of interest. Special thanks again to Lanie Graf and all the other fine people of the Moravian Archives and Andy Rutherford for working together to make this possible! -Andrew I'm playing through the pieces, in the right tuning, but on a guitar. I've got used to the tuning a bit more and I'm not pausing on the fermata, so the line of the music is clearer (for me). At first I thought that the music might be accompaniments but they're clearly hymn tunes (apart from the minuets and polonaises at the end). A lot of them sound almost familiar (but I haven't heard any hymns in decades), some sound like carols and number 23 is 'In dulci jubilo'. They're interesting to play - though you wouldn't want to play many at a time, unless for devotional purposes. Presumably the player sang along? I wonder if the MS is the work of a person producing arrangements for his/her own interest or if the cittern could have been used for a small number of people to sing along with? I'm sure I've seen images from (roughly) the time of rather severe looking people playing citterns and it's interesting to speculate whether this was music they might have played. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.58/2304 - Release Date: 08/14/09 06:10:00
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch [rights]
I will need to check with Lanie Graf about the rights for performance. I think it may be a semantic issue of what qualifies as music. I believe the permission should be sought only for the reproduction of the tablature (music) of physical manuscript (e.g. you would need to seek permission if you were to create an edition or include a photograph as part of a book). Let me find out, and sorry for the confusion. Thanks also to all of those who have taken an interest in this music! Andrew At 01:57 AM 8/16/2009, you wrote: Hello Stuart, That is strange nobody can play a music which is almost 300 years old. In France, at this age, music is public with no more rights. I am probably wrong, but I don't see well the problem. Damien - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Andrew Hartig cittern2...@theaterofmusic.com Cc: cittern@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 11:42 PM Subject: [CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch Stuart Walsh wrote: Andrew Hartig wrote: Dear all, Some time back Andy Rutherford had told us about a manuscript book (BMB4) in the Moravian Archives of Bethlehem, PA (USA) for 6-course cittern, tuned GCEgbe. Andy managed to get over there to take some photos, and after quite a few emails with the folks at the Moravian Archives, I am pleased to announce that Andy's photographs of the book are now available for public download from my web site. I have compiled all of his photos into a single PDF (25 MB). You can get to it from the Music Files page of the Renaissance Cittern Site, [1]http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/ (scroll down to the box for 18th century music), where perhaps you may also find something else of interest. Special thanks again to Lanie Graf and all the other fine people of the Moravian Archives and Andy Rutherford for working together to make this possible! -Andrew Very interesting and a great resource. Thanks Andrew. There's lots to ponder. For example the funny little 11 sign, which is perhaps an ornament. And these settings include the tune, as sung? The chorale settings seem (after a quick look) quite full, with voice leading etc. No 40 sounds vaguely familiar. Here's a quick recording on a factory-made Russian guitar, but in the GCEgbe tuning. A lot of the pieces are in C major, even though the tuning isn't fully chordal. [2]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3 (deleted - just read The manuscript and its music may not be reproduced or published without the consent of the Moravian Archives. Sorry!) And here's one of the little dance tunes at the end (with a rather glaring mistake in the repeat of the second strain!): [3]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3.mp3 (deleted) I think it was Rob who said that James Tyler claimed that the English guitar (guittar) has its origins in Germany. I haven't seen his (Tyler's) Evora paper. I looked at a link to the Evora papers but it was dead. Anyway, I think Germany is a likely contender for what got makers in Britain going in the 1750s. But the cittern in Germany itself seems not to have got involved in the 'guittar' fashion. And the music that exists (as far as I know) is in 'old-fashioned' tablature. Boetticher (if I've spelt his name correctly) mentions some four-course music c.1750s and there's the Bunsold tablature and now this. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - [5]www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.58/2304 - Release Date: 08/15/09 06:10:00 -- References 1. http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/ 2. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3 3. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3.mp3 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. http://www.avg.com/
[CITTERN] Moravian Choralbuch
Dear all, Some time back Andy Rutherford had told us about a manuscript book (BMB4) in the Moravian Archives of Bethlehem, PA (USA) for 6-course cittern, tuned GCEgbe. Andy managed to get over there to take some photos, and after quite a few emails with the folks at the Moravian Archives, I am pleased to announce that Andy's photographs of the book are now available for public download from my web site. I have compiled all of his photos into a single PDF (25 MB). You can get to it from the Music Files page of the Renaissance Cittern Site, http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/ (scroll down to the box for 18th century music), where perhaps you may also find something else of interest. Special thanks again to Lanie Graf and all the other fine people of the Moravian Archives and Andy Rutherford for working together to make this possible! -Andrew To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch
Andrew Hartig wrote: Dear all, Some time back Andy Rutherford had told us about a manuscript book (BMB4) in the Moravian Archives of Bethlehem, PA (USA) for 6-course cittern, tuned GCEgbe. Andy managed to get over there to take some photos, and after quite a few emails with the folks at the Moravian Archives, I am pleased to announce that Andy's photographs of the book are now available for public download from my web site. I have compiled all of his photos into a single PDF (25 MB). You can get to it from the Music Files page of the Renaissance Cittern Site, http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/ (scroll down to the box for 18th century music), where perhaps you may also find something else of interest. Special thanks again to Lanie Graf and all the other fine people of the Moravian Archives and Andy Rutherford for working together to make this possible! -Andrew Very interesting and a great resource. Thanks Andrew. There's lots to ponder. For example the funny little 11 sign, which is perhaps an ornament. And these settings include the tune, as sung? The chorale settings seem (after a quick look) quite full, with voice leading etc. No 40 sounds vaguely familiar. Here's a quick recording on a factory-made Russian guitar, but in the GCEgbe tuning. A lot of the pieces are in C major, even though the tuning isn't fully chordal. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3 And here's one of the little dance tunes at the end (with a rather glaring mistake in the repeat of the second strain!): http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3.mp3 I think it was Rob who said that James Tyler claimed that the English guitar (guittar) has its origins in Germany. I haven't seen his (Tyler's) Evora paper. I looked at a link to the Evora papers but it was dead. Anyway, I think Germany is a likely contender for what got makers in Britain going in the 1750s. But the cittern in Germany itself seems not to have got involved in the 'guittar' fashion. And the music that exists (as far as I know) is in 'old-fashioned' tablature. Boetticher (if I've spelt his name correctly) mentions some four-course music c.1750s and there's the Bunsold tablature and now this. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Moravian Choralbuch
Stuart Walsh wrote: Andrew Hartig wrote: Dear all, Some time back Andy Rutherford had told us about a manuscript book (BMB4) in the Moravian Archives of Bethlehem, PA (USA) for 6-course cittern, tuned GCEgbe. Andy managed to get over there to take some photos, and after quite a few emails with the folks at the Moravian Archives, I am pleased to announce that Andy's photographs of the book are now available for public download from my web site. I have compiled all of his photos into a single PDF (25 MB). You can get to it from the Music Files page of the Renaissance Cittern Site, http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/musicfiles/ (scroll down to the box for 18th century music), where perhaps you may also find something else of interest. Special thanks again to Lanie Graf and all the other fine people of the Moravian Archives and Andy Rutherford for working together to make this possible! -Andrew Very interesting and a great resource. Thanks Andrew. There's lots to ponder. For example the funny little 11 sign, which is perhaps an ornament. And these settings include the tune, as sung? The chorale settings seem (after a quick look) quite full, with voice leading etc. No 40 sounds vaguely familiar. Here's a quick recording on a factory-made Russian guitar, but in the GCEgbe tuning. A lot of the pieces are in C major, even though the tuning isn't fully chordal. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/No40.mp3 (deleted - just read The manuscript and its music may not be reproduced or published without the consent of the Moravian Archives. Sorry!) And here's one of the little dance tunes at the end (with a rather glaring mistake in the repeat of the second strain!): http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Men3.mp3 (deleted) I think it was Rob who said that James Tyler claimed that the English guitar (guittar) has its origins in Germany. I haven't seen his (Tyler's) Evora paper. I looked at a link to the Evora papers but it was dead. Anyway, I think Germany is a likely contender for what got makers in Britain going in the 1750s. But the cittern in Germany itself seems not to have got involved in the 'guittar' fashion. And the music that exists (as far as I know) is in 'old-fashioned' tablature. Boetticher (if I've spelt his name correctly) mentions some four-course music c.1750s and there's the Bunsold tablature and now this. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.58/2304 - Release Date: 08/15/09 06:10:00
[CITTERN] Re: Hamburger Cittrinchen (sp) / Bell Cittern music
Andrew Rutherford wrote: I'm trying to find out how much music there is for citterns in this tuning. There doesn't seem to be much known music for Hamburger Cittrinchen in any tuning. James Tyler mentioned on the ning group that he's working on compiling lists of music for various citterns and he said he had found surprisingly little German music. It seems Andreas Michel had only managed to locate two manuscripts (1664 and c. 1700 respectively) when he wrote his article on the instrument: http://studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/zist_hamb_cith.htm Both these manuscripts use tunings with the same intervals as the Moravian and Strom mss. but apparently at considerably higher pitches. Frank Nordberg http://www.musicaviva.com http://stores.ebay.com/Nordbergs-Music-Store?refid=store To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Hamburger Cittrinchen (sp) / Bell Cittern music
Dear Cittern Bunch, A while back I put up a notice about a tablature Choralbuch in the Moravian archives in Bethlehem, PA. It's for an instrument tuned nominally GCEgbe. I'm trying to find out how much music there is for citterns in this tuning. All I know of is the Edvard Storm MS, and someone mentioned an Evangelische Choralbuch by JW Bunswold from 1765. I'd appreciate it if someone could point me in the right direction. Thanks! andy r -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Hamburger Cittrinchen (sp) / Bell Cittern music
Andrew Rutherford wrote: Dear Cittern Bunch, A while back I put up a notice about a tablature Choralbuch in the Moravian archives in Bethlehem, PA. It's for an instrument tuned nominally GCEgbe. I'm trying to find out how much music there is for citterns in this tuning. All I know of is the Edvard Storm MS, and someone mentioned an Evangelische Choralbuch by JW Bunswold from 1765. The Bunsold tablature is not for a cittern tuned GCEgbe but for a fully chordal tuning with gceg at the top and loads of basses descending diatonically. I'm sure I've read somwehere about Bell cittern MSS but I can't remember where. I hope you can find out some and tell us. I'd appreciate it if someone could point me in the right direction. Thanks! andy r -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.41/2277 - Release Date: 08/02/09 05:56:00
[CITTERN] Re: English guitar (guittar)
It's a simple instrument with a repertoire mainly for amateurs - but it's definitely an instrument with 'issues'. To me, it seems to combine two opposites: a mechanical instrument like a music box ...and a badly behaved set of bagpipes. Classic Eeyore commentary. Cheer up, lad, it sounds fantastic, wonderful, etc, etc. You play beautifully, and all is well with the world. Seems to have an odd bridge, but it is difficult to see it clearly. Is it original? Seriously, Stuart, it really sounds good. Rob MacKillop -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: English guitar (guittar)
Seems to have an odd bridge, but it is difficult to see it clearly. Is it original? No I don't think it's original, and it's quite high so it would be difficult to play with the little finger planted on the soundboard. But I can't play that way, anyway. Seriously, Stuart, it really sounds good. Thank you. Stuart Rob MacKillop No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.31/2264 - Release Date: 07/26/09 11:07:00 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] English guitar (guittar)
Some attempts at some pieces: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yquqU2Towi0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwcF8u-LqR0feature=channel_page http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWiSoQTKk0ofeature=channel_page It's a simple instrument with a repertoire mainly for amateurs - but it's definitely an instrument with 'issues'. To me, it seems to combine two opposites: a mechanical instrument like a music box ...and a badly behaved set of bagpipes. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: English guitar (guittar)
Nice work, Stuart - I especially enjoyed the Noferi. Doc On Jul 27, 2009, at 12:27 AM, Stuart Walsh wrote: Some attempts at some pieces: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yquqU2Towi0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwcF8u-LqR0feature=channel_page http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWiSoQTKk0ofeature=channel_page It's a simple instrument with a repertoire mainly for amateurs - but it's definitely an instrument with 'issues'. To me, it seems to combine two opposites: a mechanical instrument like a music box ...and a badly behaved set of bagpipes. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Citole
Replying to Damien's enquiry about citole tuning's, I suspect that the current answer is that we don't know, and that it probably varied between musicians. Christopher Page suggests that d, a, d', g' (Voices and Instruments of the Middle Ages, 1987) is likely for the citole and other contemporary instruments. Most recent work on the citole has been done by Kate Buehler-McWilliams; her web-site is at www.trombamarina.com Other material is at http://crab.rutgers.edu/-pbutler/citole.html You may not yet know that the only remaining citole, formerly known as the Warwick castle gittern, has now been restored by Chris Egerton and is back on display at the British Museum, renamed as the Warwick Castle Citole. Chris gave a talk about its restoration to the Lute Society in April and took a party to see and discuss it. Peter To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Citole
Hello everybody, Since cittern ning group has opened, the mailing list is becoming dead, or zombie! :) I am going to ressusitate it for a small question :do we know how was tune the citole? If not, do we have an idea to find a correct tuning? The citole I have seen are tuned from low to high : d a d g. Is that right? Thanks a lot, Damien To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Ashmolean citterns
Thanks Stuart, for the pretty pictures. Probably everybody knows that drawings are available of the three citterns shown? On the left, Gasparo da Salo, Brescia, 11 pegs, so probably five courses 2+2+3+2+2. Unfortunately the fingerboard was replaced by the Hills and is now in equal temperament. Centrally, four courses, diatonic fretting. Seems to be by Michael Bochum, Cologne, around 1720-30. Compare with Michael Bochum, 1726, no 419, Musee du Louvre. On the right, 6 courses - the original 'wedges' can be seen in meantone positions under the replacement e.t. frets. Probably by Girolamo Virchi, Brescia - compare with the Stradivarius in Paris and the Virchi in Vienna. The 12 pegs are not in their original positions, and the filled holes do not appear to be original either. Perhaps x-rays of the peg-head might explain what has happened. Only suitable Italian music extant is by Paolo Virchi, and difficult, for 6 and 7 courses with left-hand stretches rather too big for either of these citterns; perhaps intended for an instrument like the smaller Virchi (sl. 42.5cm) in Paris, or even a treble cittern, as in England. Peter. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] some rather sinister cittern pics (4)
Citterns in the Ashmolean. Lots of other plunder in this museum. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/cittern/ Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Timo's citoles
On his cittern ning website: http://cittern.ning.com/profile/TimoPeedu Timo Peedo has photos of 3 different citoles. citole 1 (photos 3 and 4): looks like a reconstruction of the British Museum (Warwick Castle 'gittern') instrument - but simpler. Kate McWilliams was at the last Early Music Exhibition in London and had her reconstruction - which she offers for sale. Her website is: http://www.trombamarina.com/gittern/Citole%20page.htm Kate's version is fancy, like the original, but with conventional-looking, but fixed, frets and a still rather violin-looking (the instrument was converted into a sort of violin later in its existence) string set up - with 3 double gut strings. Timo's is much stranger. The four single (gut? metal?) strings tie at the trefoil thing at the end of the instrument. I wonder if this is actually workable as a way of stringing or perhaps the instrument is more conjectural. On Timo's 'Warwick' instrument there are no frets - but wedges (which I'm sure is meant to be more authentic but I can't imagine how they actually work. Do you 'fret' the notes by pressing the strings between the wedges?) citole 2 (photo 5) This one is rather like this one (Parma?): http://www.ellisium.cwc.net/citole.htm Timo's citole2 is thin-bodied, with four single strings of metal? gut? and the strange wedges for frets. Again I can't see how they tie at the tail end. If a string snapped could you tie another one on? Citole 3 (photos 6 and 7) has a citole unlike ones I've seen in the iconography. It's got three pairs of (gut? metal? strings) and a fancier - and more practical-looking way of tying the strings at the tail. But again the strange wedge 'frets'. Perhaps Timo is not around now? Anyway, I wonder if these instruments are workable, playable things. They look really interesting and strange - especially the 'frets'. And would instruments like these be part of fancier music making - in consort with other instruments, perhaps. Or would they have been used by itinerant soloists playing we'll-never-know music? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] English Guittar players and makers
Hi everybody, I was thinking for a moment to establish a list of english guittar players and makers. Musicians : Doc Rossi Rob McKillop Pedro Cabral James Tyler Andy Rutherford Taro Takeuchi Robin Jeffrey Stuart Walsh David Kilpatrick Robert Mouland Steve Player Martin Best (not sure) Gabe Stone Carlos Beceiro Christopher Davies Joseph Sobol Andrew Maginley Diann Flanagann Chris Henriksen Shigeomi Murai Dante Ferrara Ken Baddley Trevor Lawrence Jim Dalton Makers : Peter Forrester Andy Rutherford Robert Gabrielli Carlo Cecconi Stephen Barber Sandy harris Paul Hathway Al Carruth Nikos Appolonio Christopher Davies Ken Baddley I have missed many others I don't know, if they recognised themselves, accept my apologies. I don't know if the topic is interesting or not, but that was a question I was often asking myself. Damien P.S : Happy new year 2009 to all cittern list members. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Cittern in Crete
Hello Peter, This postcard shows the famous cretan duet Lira-Bulgari or Lira-Laouto, still popular today. But I agree that the shape of the plucked instrument is a cittern shape. I don't know if this picture wants to show a cittern, I don't think so. But it makes me thinking to a corsican proverb about harmony and cittern which says Pà fà un bon' accordu ci voli cetar, viulinu è timpanu (To play the perfect tune (or chord?) we need to have a violin and a cittern). In several proverbs, or written sources from all Europe I have found this kind of duet cittern and bowed instrument. Thanks Peter, All the best, Damien - Original Message - From: Peter Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Damien Delgrossi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Cittern NET cittern@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 10:17 PM Subject: Re: [CITTERN] Cittern in Crete Hi Damien, I hope this works. I attach a photo of a postcard sent me some ten years ago from Crete by Patrick Delaval. It seems to be evidence that citterns were at least still a folk-memory, even if not still in use. Best wishes, Peter On 28 Nov 2008, at 20:13, Damien Delgrossi wrote: Dear all, Two weeks ago I spent some good times with a Cretan group who was on tour in Corsica. They played many Cretan and Greek flutes, Laouto (Cretan wire-strung lute similar to italian mandoloncello), Bulgari (built by ning member Dimitris Rapakousios), Lavta (Constantinople Lute, more or less fretted arabic oud to explain it simply) etc etc... The plucked instruments player from Crete, Vangelis Tsagarakis, told me a very interesting thing : A long, long time ago Crete also had the cetra. He told me that because I had my cetera with me and he said that they used to have exactly the same instrument on the island of Crete. I was wondering if they used to have the same 8 course cittern or the renaissance 4 or 6 course cittern, popular in Italy and Europe during the Renaissance and after. He told me that the cetra in Crete probably had 4 courses. So I have my own idea about this without any information nor sources except this oral one. Candia (the old name for Crete) was administrated, colonised and directed by the Venitian Republic after the taking of Constantinople by the crusaders from 1204 to 1669. The Venitian Republic held Crete for about 4 and a half centuries. I think that the cittern was in Crete because of this strong Italian influence. Does anybody have any information, sources or anything to say about this? Thanks, Damien To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Cittern in Crete
Dear all, Two weeks ago I spent some good times with a Cretan group who was on tour in Corsica. They played many Cretan and Greek flutes, Laouto (Cretan wire-strung lute similar to italian mandoloncello), Bulgari (built by ning member Dimitris Rapakousios), Lavta (Constantinople Lute, more or less fretted arabic oud to explain it simply) etc etc... The plucked instruments player from Crete, Vangelis Tsagarakis, told me a very interesting thing : A long, long time ago Crete also had the cetra. He told me that because I had my cetera with me and he said that they used to have exactly the same instrument on the island of Crete. I was wondering if they used to have the same 8 course cittern or the renaissance 4 or 6 course cittern, popular in Italy and Europe during the Renaissance and after. He told me that the cetra in Crete probably had 4 courses. So I have my own idea about this without any information nor sources except this oral one. Candia (the old name for Crete) was administrated, colonised and directed by the Venitian Republic after the taking of Constantinople by the crusaders from 1204 to 1669. The Venitian Republic held Crete for about 4 and a half centuries. I think that the cittern was in Crete because of this strong Italian influence. Does anybody have any information, sources or anything to say about this? Thanks, Damien To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Cittern in Crete
Hi Damien, there is a considerable body of literature from venetian Crete, especially theatre plays but also poems. Most of it got printed in Venice back in the 17th century and there are modern editions around as these texts are still appreciated. I can't remember of the top off my head of any reference to cetra. There are lots of references in lagouto in the long poem Erotokritos http://el.wikisource.org/wiki/%CE%95%CF%81%CF%89%CF%84%CF%8C%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%B9%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%82 which could be either the renaissance/baroque lute, the modern laouto or some intermediate instrument. Given the island's turbulent history I doubt any instruments would have survived. Corfu and surrounding islands would be a better place to look for them, as they stayed under venetian control till the end, and had strong italian ties even after that. Cheers Stelios - Original Message From: Damien Delgrossi Subject: [CITTERN] Cittern in Crete Dear all, Two weeks ago I spent some good times with a Cretan group who was on tour in Corsica. They played many Cretan and Greek flutes, Laouto (Cretan wire-strung lute similar to italian mandoloncello), Bulgari (built by ning member Dimitris Rapakousios), Lavta (Constantinople Lute, more or less fretted arabic oud to explain it simply) etc etc... The plucked instruments player from Crete, Vangelis Tsagarakis, told me a very interesting thing : A long, long time ago Crete also had the cetra. He told me that because I had my cetera with me and he said that they used to have exactly the same instrument on the island of Crete. I was wondering if they used to have the same 8 course cittern or the renaissance 4 or 6 course cittern, popular in Italy and Europe during the Renaissance and after. He told me that the cetra in Crete probably had 4 courses. So I have my own idea about this without any information nor sources except this oral one. Candia (the old name for Crete) was administrated, colonised and directed by the Venitian Republic after the taking of Constantinople by the crusaders from 1204 to 1669. The Venitian Republic held Crete for about 4 and a half centuries. I think that the cittern was in Crete because of this strong Italian influence. Does anybody have any information, sources or anything to say about this? Thanks, Damien To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Cittern in Crete
Hi Damien, I hope this works. I attach a photo of a postcard sent me some ten years ago from Crete by Patrick Delaval. It seems to be evidence that citterns were at least still a folk-memory, even if not still in use. Best wishes, Peter On 28 Nov 2008, at 20:13, Damien Delgrossi wrote: Dear all, Two weeks ago I spent some good times with a Cretan group who was on tour in Corsica. They played many Cretan and Greek flutes, Laouto (Cretan wire-strung lute similar to italian mandoloncello), Bulgari (built by ning member Dimitris Rapakousios), Lavta (Constantinople Lute, more or less fretted arabic oud to explain it simply) etc etc... The plucked instruments player from Crete, Vangelis Tsagarakis, told me a very interesting thing : A long, long time ago Crete also had the cetra. He told me that because I had my cetera with me and he said that they used to have exactly the same instrument on the island of Crete. I was wondering if they used to have the same 8 course cittern or the renaissance 4 or 6 course cittern, popular in Italy and Europe during the Renaissance and after. He told me that the cetra in Crete probably had 4 courses. So I have my own idea about this without any information nor sources except this oral one. Candia (the old name for Crete) was administrated, colonised and directed by the Venitian Republic after the taking of Constantinople by the crusaders from 1204 to 1669. The Venitian Republic held Crete for about 4 and a half centuries. I think that the cittern was in Crete because of this strong Italian influence. Does anybody have any information, sources or anything to say about this? Thanks, Damien To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[CITTERN] Re: Cittern in Crete
To my knowledge, The Dartmouth list does not support attachments... The Ning site is a good place for them, and I am always willing and happy to post them via my cittern site if needed. -A: Hi Damien, I hope this works. I attach a photo of a postcard sent me some ten years ago from Crete by Patrick Delaval. It seems to be evidence that citterns were at least still a folk-memory, even if not still in use. Best wishes, Peter On 28 Nov 2008, at 20:13, Damien Delgrossi wrote: Dear all, Two weeks ago I spent some good times with a Cretan group who was on tour in Corsica. They played many Cretan and Greek flutes, Laouto (Cretan wire-strung lute similar to italian mandoloncello), Bulgari (built by ning member Dimitris Rapakousios), Lavta (Constantinople Lute, more or less fretted arabic oud to explain it simply) etc etc... The plucked instruments player from Crete, Vangelis Tsagarakis, told me a very interesting thing : A long, long time ago Crete also had the cetra. He told me that because I had my cetera with me and he said that they used to have exactly the same instrument on the island of Crete. I was wondering if they used to have the same 8 course cittern or the renaissance 4 or 6 course cittern, popular in Italy and Europe during the Renaissance and after. He told me that the cetra in Crete probably had 4 courses. So I have my own idea about this without any information nor sources except this oral one. Candia (the old name for Crete) was administrated, colonised and directed by the Venitian Republic after the taking of Constantinople by the crusaders from 1204 to 1669. The Venitian Republic held Crete for about 4 and a half centuries. I think that the cittern was in Crete because of this strong Italian influence. Does anybody have any information, sources or anything to say about this? Thanks, Damien To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[CITTERN] Re: Bellman, Storm, Moravia and the Hamburger cittrinchen (and the lute-cittern too)
Frank Nordberg wrote: I got a reply from Britta Peterson at the Stockholm Stadmuseum. The reason why she was unable to answer right away turned out to be that the musueum don't actually own the cittern. They have it for a long time from another museum (the Swedish Historical Museum) and was returned to the owner recently. Fortunately, the Stockholm museum just got it back for a temporary exhibition so she was able to examine it for me anyway. The measurements are Length: 68 cm. Scale: 37 cm. She's unable to say whether the citterns has been modified. This does not seem to fit the instrument in Krafft's painting of course. However, I contacted Tor Kvarv, a friend of mine who's a painter and a art history expert. He told me that althoguh a late 18th C. portrait painter would have been expected to keep a high standard of realism, this would only apply to the person in the picture. Props, like the cittern in Bellman's hands may well have been extensively modified to fit the composition of the painting. Even rendering the instrument at twice its real size would have been perfectly acceptable provided there was an artistic reason to do so. He couldn't, of course, say if there actually was an artistic reason without seeing the picture and his computer had broken down so I couldn't just email it to him. We've agreed to meet for a cup of coffee and some looks at various cittern pictures next time I'm in town. I suppose we'll just have to let this part of the discussion rest until then. Frank I've been rummaging around and found this image of Bellman (the same Krafft one but quite big and quite easy to see details) from an old LP: http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Bellman.jpg You have surmised that the instrument might be a 'prop' or small instrument made to look bigger for artistic effect. Of course these are possibilities. The instrument in the picture is quite big with very deep sides. Bellman looks like he is resting his right hand thumb on the soundboard. The fingerboard looks slightly curved.It's not easy to be sure - but the lower strings seem to be paired. On the face of it, though, it looks like a man and an instrument he is familiar with. On the same LP there was a picture of a reconstruction of...I can't quite remember.. of just a cyster of the time.. but I think it was supposed to be Bellman's instrument. I always thought it was strange because the reconstruction looks nothing like the instrument in the Krafft picture. Here is a very poor quality scan of a photo of it. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/cyster1.jpg The LP was songs by Bellman sung by Martin Best accompanying himself on guitar and 'cyster' and presumably he was playing this instrument. On the subject of bell citterns I came across this image of one (again it's very poor quality). All I remember is that it was form a book written in Italian: http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/bell.jpg The neck-body area on this and other bell citterns is (as far as I can see) very different form the neck-body area of the instrument in the Krafft painting. This one has 12 pegs. I suppose it's impossible to see (in this poor quality image) how the strings are disposed but I'd guess at pairing throughout. The other thing is the contrivance over the bottom of the soundboard, behind the bridge. It could be some later addition in line with some fashion of that time. But here is a similar - but different - contrivance on a Hamburger Cithrinchen: http://futuremuseum.co.uk/images/cache/Img5008S1000.jpg details here: http://www.futuremuseum.co.uk/Collection.aspx/charles_van_raalte/Object/hamburger_cithrinchen/ (did Rob mentions this instrument sometime?) Stuart No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.4/1793 - Release Date: 16/11/2008 19:58 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Bellman, Storm, Moravia and the Hamburger cittrinchen (and the lute-cittern too)
(did Rob mentions this instrument sometime?) I don't think so...which doesn't mean I didn't...can't remember what I had for breakfast this morning...getting old... Rob (I think) -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Bellman, Storm, Moravia and the Hamburger cittrinchen (and the lute-cittern too)
A very interesting thread. Just expressing a few doubts here! The Moravian Archives in Betlehem, PA. They have a c. 1750 book with chorales in tablature for that tuning and also a lute-cittern from the same time period. Andrew Rutherford posted a message about it on this group about a month ago and he and Lanie Graf have added quite a bit of information about the Moravian cittern tradition at the ning, including pictures of the instrument mentioned and photos of a painting that includes two ladies playing lute-citterns. It would be really interesting to see some scans of the chorales form the Moravian Archives. I wonder if Lanie Graf can be persuaded? I don't see this...yet. Certainly the instrument has 11 pegs but is there any reason to think that the strings were arranged in four doubles and 3 singles? Sorry, that was a typo. It should be the other way round: four double courses and three single basses. It's fairly clear if you look at the nut on the large photo. Maybe...?. Do we even know if the nut is original? From what can be seen in the Krafft painting, this instrument doesn't really look anything like a cithrinchen? The painting doesn't show the most distinctive part of the instrument - the tail end - but the shape of the part we do see is consistent with the preserved Bellman cittern and with the only Hamburger citrinchen at the Studia-Instromentorum site: http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/ZISTER/0639.htm However, now that you mention it, the *details* in the painting does fit the surviving Bellman instrument! The fretboard, the lining and the rosette are all very different and the cleaner scan I posted first: http://hem.passagen.se/iblis/bellman.jpg seems to show twelve tuning pegs! But a cithrinchen is a small instrument with a thin body (like other seventeenth century citterns). The thing that Bellman holds in the painting is much, much bigger with a really deep body. I'm ready to be convinced, but it doesn't look anything like a cithrinchen to me. This is really strange. It is commonly accepted knowledge among Bellman experts that he only played two instruments throughout his lifetime (the other one was a theorbised cittern with extended bass strings) and that the cittern in the Krafft painting is the one preserved at the Stockholm museum. What does this mean? Is the Stockholm cittern a fake? Is the painting *that* inexact? Did Bellman actually own more than the two citterns we know of? Did he just borrow somebidy else's cittern when he posed for the painting? Looks like we have to challenge a century-old well established historical fact here. All things considered, I think we can be 99.9 percent certain that it was common during the 18th C. to fingerpick the Hamburger citrinchen. Even if it was tiny? Good point. First, I wasn't thinking only of the common small Hamburger citrincehnn but also this still hypothetical larger bell cittern. I should have been more precise there. But let's see: We know of other small historical stringed instruments (renaissance citterns and 17th C. mandolins/mandolas) being played fingerstyle so the suggestion may not be quite as drastic as it may seem at first sight. At the moment it seems as if the Storm ms. was written for - if not a Hamburger citrinchen - at least a cittern of the same size and tuning. I think we all agree the music there has to be played fingerstyle. Frank, I don't know about this. Which cithrinchen tuning? I've seen references (Groves, I'm pretty sure) to the maj7 tuning in C and F and now, thanks to Rocky, to Bb. And you mentioned another weird one. So: do we really know what size the Storm cittern would have been? Bellman learned to play on the cittern his grandfather had bought in Hamburg - I think we can be fairly certain of that. Even if he did switch to a different instrument later, it's not very likely he'd change his playing style. Then again, what *did* grandpa get in Hamburg? How likely is it that a 18th C. singer/singwriter would perform only accompanied with something roughly equivalent to a modern mandolin in pitch and size? The 'Moravian' lute-bellied cittern isn't a cithrinchen. No but the lute-cittern was designed around 1700 as a hybrid between a cittern and a lute. Any more details on this? This 'lute-cittern' concept is completely new to me. I know of lots of lute-bellied citterns (English guitars and some French cistres) but these are from much later (1750s and onwards). Here's a picture from the 19th century.Perhaps a lute-cittern, in duet with an alpine horn!? http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/cyster.jpg Stuart It was almost certainly based on a specific existing cittern tradition and the evidence so far indicates that this was the Hamburger citrinchen (or at least a close relative). The Moravian info suggests the two shared the same tuning and, according to Michel, Gdansk - a
[CITTERN] Re: Bellman, Storm, Moravia and the Hamburger cittrinchen (and the lute-cittern too)
Stuart Walsh wrote: A very interesting thread. Just expressing a few doubts here! Indeed. Hope everybody agrees, cause this may go on for a while. ;-) It would be really interesting to see some scans of the chorales form the Moravian Archives. Me too. That would be really helpful. Maybe...?. Do we even know if the nut is original? One of the questions I asked the Stockholm museum is whether there are any signs of the cittern having been rebuilt at some time. I got a reply from them btw. They'll be happy to help but it may take them a while to gather the data I requested. So for now we'll just have to wait and see. [the Krafft painting] But a cithrinchen is a small instrument with a thin body (like other seventeenth century citterns). The thing that Bellman holds in the painting is much, much bigger with a really deep body. Yes. This is one of the four reasons why I stipulate there might have been two different bell citterns, the small citrinchen and a considerably alrger one that may have been called a citrinchen or zither. Frank, I don't know about this. Which cithrinchen tuning? I've seen references (Groves, I'm pretty sure) to the maj7 tuning in C and F and now, thanks to Rocky, to Bb. And you mentioned another weird one. So: do we really know what size the Storm cittern would have been? No but assuming the tuning given is correct (another issue we need to investigate further), it must have been small. The scale length can't have been more than 36 cm (14) and probably less. Regarding the various tunings of the Hamburger citrinchen, Michel's article which I referred to earlier, is quite informative - although less so than some of his similar articles on other German cittern variants. Perhaps I should have gone into more details. I understand not everybody here are comfortable reading articles in German: 1) A manuscript, started in 1664 and continued until at least 1680, with music in tablature for Hamburger citrinchen gives two different tunings a fourth apart: c-e-g-b-e' f-a-c'-e'-a' This is the earliest source of insformation about the tuning. (Incidentally, the two different tunings here is another of the four reasons behind my theory of the citrinchen as a family rather than as a single type/size of isntrument). 2) In 1718 Johann Arnold Vockerodt mentions three different tunings: f-a-c'-e'-a' (same as the highest 1664 tuning) d-g-c'-e'-a' f-b-d'-f'-b' 3) In 1912 Georg Kinsky conluded that the Hamburger citrinchen was tuned like a baroque guitar: A-d-g-b-e'. There's very little evidence to support this though, just a quote from a 1689 book by Jacob Kremberg stating that a five course Hamburger Citringen can be used as a substitute for a guitar. Hoever, it is interesting to note that the four course d-g-b-e' cittern tuning was indeed known in Thüringen around the mid 18th C. 4) In 1992 Dieter Kirsch and Lenz Meierott suggested that some of the later pieces in the 1664 manuscript may actually have been written for a tuning as high as b-d'-f'-a'-d'' If I understand Michel correctly, this suggestion was based on some string gauge specs written on f. 89 of the ms and may not be valid if it turns out the citrinchen did indeed come in different sizes. It is however interesting that the tuning they came up with is the same as the one given for the Storm ms. [The lute-cittern] Any more details on this? Sure: http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/zist_laute.htm Here's a picture from the 19th century. Perhaps a lute-cittern, in duet with an alpine horn!? Most interesting. I'm not quite sure if the instrument is supposed to be a lute-cittern or just a regular lute though. Frank Nordberg http://www.musicaviva.com http://stores.ebay.com/Nordbergs-Music-Store?refid=store To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Edvard Storm Ms.
Secondly, you guys are a tough audience! ! My apologies for that comment -- I must have been feeling vulnerable the day I wrote it. I have appreciated the feedback, ideas, debate, and suggestions made both on- and off-list. -- Rocky To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Edvard Storm Ms.
Mjos Larson wrote: Secondly, you guys are a tough audience! My apologies for that comment -- I must have been feeling vulnerable the day I wrote it. No need to apologise to me. If anything I should apologise to you. I got Fichte's triad (thesis+antithesis=synthesis) so well drummed into me at high school, it's become second nature to me. It is an extremely useful scientific and artistic tool but it can be tough on people at times and sometimes I forget that. --- In this case it's my turn to eat my own words: Mjos Larson also wrote: Regarding number of courses, I wonder why the writer would bother with writing his fretting examples on page 3 with seven definite entries and two distinct notations (after the fifth course) if the 6th and 7th course were tuned the same. I completely overlooked that page! Seven courses it is then. My comment about 2nd inversion chords was based on the assumption that the slashed letters signified seventh course and the un-slashed sixth course. Switch the order and those chords at least makes much more sense. The two page 3 tuning charts only indicate tuning for six courses. What does this mean? The seventh was variably tuned? Now it's getting really messy. The sixth course in the tuning charts are not slashed which is how the *seventh* course are notated in the fretting examples on the same page. The only explanation I can think of is that the tuning charts are copied from a different source than the rest of the ms and intended for a six course instrument. Overall, a C still makes more harmonic sense (to me), as it is often in a place where I would expect a dominant harmony). Now that I've had a closer look at the music I agree. C is the only tuning that would consistently fit all the pieces with no need for retuning or correcting any bass notes. There are also passage (6 and 14) where the baseline seems to be displaced an octave (if the 7th is read as a C). How about a re-entrant tuning: c'-f-bb-d'-f'-a'-d'' There are plenty of historical references to such a practice to add extra bass strings to facilitate the playing of certain notes rather than to expand the instrument's range although I have to admit I don't know of any close to Storm in time and location. Such a tuning would solve another problem that's been bothering me about the manuscript: the range of the seven course instrument seems far to wide for the string materials available at that time. Anon Egeland's suggestion of a 7th tuned to B-flat doesn't work to my ears. He's a fiddle/violin player so may have relied on information from a plucked string player. As far as I know Egeland got the tuning from Storm's own written playing instructions. I may have misunderstood though. We really need to get a look at the manuscript as a whole, not just the pages with cittern music! --- Does anyone have other thoughts about the ornaments? No idea. Sorry. Frank Nordberg http://www.musicaviva.com http://stores.ebay.com/Nordbergs-Music-Store?refid=store To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Bellman, Storm, Moravia and the Hamburger cittrinchen (and the lute-cittern too)
Frank Nordberg wrote: Starting yet another thread on this topic... ;-) I've had a closer look at Bellman's cittern and also re-read Michel's article on the Hamburger citrinchen and here is what I've found so far: 1. Tuning The Moravian GCEGBE tuning Andrew Rutherford asked about, is mentioned by Michel as one of the two known 17th C. citrinchen tunings (only of course as a five course tuning without the low G). I suppose the exact tuning would be G-c-e-g-b-e' since neither an octave higher nor lower would make much sense in this context. (The Moravian instrument turns out to be a lute-cittern. Until now there doesn't seem to have been any information about its tuning. Establishing a connection between it and the Hamburger citrinchen is a noticeable achievement. Thanks Andy and Lanie!) Just to be absolutely clear about this connection - what was it that linked the GCEGBE tuning with this lute-bellied cittern? (I've literally lost the thread on this one!) Michel also mentions a five course variant of Storm's (Bb-)F-bb-d'-f'-a'-d'' tuning - not a note lower but a seventh *higher* than the (G)CEGBE tuning! The other tunings mentioned by Michel are: f-a-c'-e'-a' (the other 17th C. tuning) d-g-c'-e'-a' (18th C., same intervals as a baroque guitar) f-bb-d'-f'-bb' (18th C. - that one is *really* weird) The curious open maj7 tunings of the bell cittern opens up for some wild speculations about the possible origins of various sittern tuning but that'll have to wait. Just playing the few pieces from the Storm MS, in the maj 7 tuning and in the key of the tuning it makes some voice leading at final cadences very straightforward and satisfying.(So maybe the instrument was mainly played in the home key?) --- 2. Courses There definitely were bell citterns with more than five courses! I found a photo of Bellman's cittern: http://www.stadsmuseum.stockholm.se/samlingar.php?artikel=17 larger view: http://www.stadsmuseum.stockholm.se/samlingar.php?artikel=17bild=1 No question about painters being unable to count tuning pegs anymore. The instrument certainly has seven courses - four double and three single. I don't see this...yet. Certainly the instrument has 11 pegs but is there any reason to think that the strings were arranged in four doubles and 3 singles? Not from this picture? I don't think I've ever (yet) seen evidence of doubled top strings and single basses on citterns before English guittars/French cistres from the 1750s. (Digression: it also has a scalloped fretboard - is there actually a connection between the sawblade shape fretboards of renaissance citterns and the scalloped fretboards of 20th C. Germand and Swedish lutes?) --- 3. Sizes The rather extreme differences between the various citrinchen tunings seems to suggest that the instrument came in at least two distincitvely different sizes. I understand that idea is a new one(?) (still haven't finished doing my Hamburger citrinchen homework..) The cittern Bellman holds in Krafft's painting (http://www.bellman.net/krafft.html) still looks much larger than a regular Hamburger citrinchen and now that we know the instrument is presented anatomically correctly (that is: it actually has that many strings), the painting becomes a much more credible source. I have written Stockholms Stadsmuseum asking for more information about the size of the cittern. Hopefully they'll reply. Right now my working hypothesis is that there was two different bell citterns, the fairly well-known Hamburger citrinchen (scale length c. 15-16 cm - c. 14) and a larger one that perhps should be called the Hamburger cister. Scale length might have been similar to the lute-cittern, that is about 47 cm (18.5), possibly a bit longer. From what can be seen in the Krafft painting, this instrument doesn't really look anything like a cithrinchen? --- 4. Playing technique The painting of Bellman seems to show him playing fingerstyle. The Storm ms. is clearly written for fingerstyle playing. We still don't know what kind of cittern the music was written for but with the tuning and stringing issue sorted out, the Hamburger citrinchen is definitely the favourite option. The Moravian painting posted by Lanie Graf at the cittern ning shows lute-citterns played fignerstyle. If the lute-cittern got its tuning from the bell-cittern, it's likely the playing technique came from there too. All things considered, I think we can be 99.9 percent certain that it was common during the 18th C. to fingerpick the Hamburger citrinchen. Even if it was tiny? Bellman's instrument (in the Krafft painting) is not obviously a cithrinchen, even though he did also have a cithrinchen. The 'Moravian' lute-bellied cittern isn't a cithrinchen. There are some puzzling/anomolous lute-bellied citterns around which have probably had a varied history (been adapted in various ways over time). Stuart Frank
[CITTERN] Re: Zitter - the German Guitar
I've been hunting through 19^th-century Scottish newspapers, and found the following interesting snippet: LONDON TUESDAY, MAY 15, 1849 The Prussian Minister and Madame Bunsen entertained last Friday at dinner the Duchess of Sutherland, the Duke and Duchess of Argyle, the Marquis of Stafford, Viscount and Lady Palmerston, the Hon. William and Mrs Cowper, Baron Heintze, and other distinguished guests. In the evening there was a select musical party, in which the principal performers of the German operas executed several pieces of national music, and M. Rulhart of Wurzburg, performed with great success on the interesting popular instrument of South Germany, the zitter, or German guitar, improved by himself. Rob MacKillop -- Maybe someone on the Summit/Topica list might know something about it (and M. Rulhart)? I wonder if the instrument was some kind of metal-strung waldzither or a gut-strung something like this: http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/GITARREN/git_sachsen_inhalt.htm Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.3/1786 - Release Date: 13/11/2008 18:01
[CITTERN] Re: Zitter - the German Guitar
Stuart Walsh wrote: I wonder if the instrument was some kind of metal-strung waldzither or a gut-strung something like this: It's hard to say for sure but the latter seems marginally more likely. Frank Nordberg To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Edvard Storm Ms.
Frank, First of all, thank you for sharing the Ms pages and writing posting the background information on instruments and suggestiion that the Ms. could be viewed as part of the Danish or German tradition. Secondly, you guys are a tough audience! ! I started this post a few days ago so I may be behind the discussion by now. I have uploaded a revised PDF of the cittern pieces at: http://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/RockyMjos I have reset the tab in the 5-line form of the original and decided to alter more bass notes to better please my ear. I have also added numbers to help keep track of pieces. The transcriptions offer one possibility for the ornaments. Does anyone have other thoughts about the ornaments? Farstad's examples didn't seem completely same to me (they always followed the note to be ornamented). In Storm these signs are on staff between the upper note(s) and bass note. The two vertical lines in Storm are rather short strokes and might be almost viewed as two long dots. The Storm cross is a longer vertical stroke with a shorter horizontal stroke (t-like). Regarding number of courses, I wonder why the writer would bother with writing his fretting examples on page 3 with seven definite entries and two distinct notations (after the fifth course) if the 6th and 7th course were tuned the same. I think the tablature definitely shows seven courses, as each fretting example on page 3 has tablature letters on each of the 5 staff lines (starting at the first course) then next a tablature letter with a slash, followed by a tablature letter without a slash. This happens for each fret -- 7 for the open strings, 7 for the first fret, etc. The two page 3 tuning charts only indicate tuning for six courses. What does this mean? The seventh was variably tuned? (If one believes this music is for a 7-c instrument.) I would agree that in many places in the music where the indicated 7th note would sound the pitch for the 6th would sound better. You will see that I have gone further in my new version in altering bass notes to a better (to my ear) choice. Overall, a C still makes more harmonic sense (to me), as it is often in a place where I would expect a dominant harmony). There are also passage (6 and 14) where the baseline seems to be displaced an octave (if the 7th is read as a C). There are many pieces which do not use a seventh course: 1, 2, 3, 7, 8, 9, and 15. In the rest of the pieces I always thought a C was better than an F (except for 10, and the second half of 12 where F would be better -- I viewed them as a possible mistake). I also tried a G and that also seemed to work OK, but I still think C better. Anon Egeland's suggestion of a 7th tuned to B-flat doesn't work to my ears. He's a fiddle/violin player so may have relied on information from a plucked string player. -- Rocky To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Edvard Storm Ms.
Thanks for posting the sound file, Stuart. Nicely played! I thought the first section has some similarities to Van Eyck's Wat zalmen op den avond doen. Ruth van Braak Griffioen list a number of cognates, including German versions (Was wölln wir auf den Abend thun). Lute versions in German manuscripts include Hainhofer, Fabricius, Stobaeus, Adriaenssen and Thysius (Slaepen gaan), etc -- R On Nov 11, 2008, at 3:32 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote: Arthur Ness wrote: Stuart and Rob, I thought Rocky did a nice job, too. What do you make of the Wusch Englisch or Vush English tune? Do you recognized the tune? = wash or in dialect wish (Wunsch). Here's a simple rendition of the tune (I'm an amateur). It's played on a very humble, factory-made seven-string Russian guitar but tuned in the correct way. There's a strum on the open strings at the start to show the tuning - very soupy! I put a capo on (somewhat arbitrarily) to raise the pitch a bit, on the supposition that the intended instrument would have been smaller than a Russian guitar. Hope it gives some indication of the piece: http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Wusch_Englisch.mp3 Doesn't sound familiar at all. Doesn't sound particularly English. Almost Balcarres? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] posting to two lists
About posting the same message to two lists ... well I try to make that difficult for several reasons. One is the feeling that it negates point of multiple lists. The other is technical. You see, the list robot can only direct a posting to one list. If you have two list addresses on the To: or Cc: field then the robot makes its own decision on which one list to send the message to. If the robot decides to send it to a list that you are not a member of, the message can go into a black hole. So if you really need to post to two lists, I suggest you save a copy of the message, post it to one list, join the second list and send a second copy (as a completely seperate action) to the second list, then unsubscribe from the second list. Sometimes I look through the reject posts and forward them on manually. But lately I have been just too busy to do that. Wayne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Zitter - the German Guitar
I've been hunting through 19^th-century Scottish newspapers, and found the following interesting snippet: LONDON TUESDAY, MAY 15, 1849 The Prussian Minister and Madame Bunsen entertained last Friday at dinner the Duchess of Sutherland, the Duke and Duchess of Argyle, the Marquis of Stafford, Viscount and Lady Palmerston, the Hon. William and Mrs Cowper, Baron Heintze, and other distinguished guests. In the evening there was a select musical party, in which the principal performers of the German operas executed several pieces of national music, and M. Rulhart of Wurzburg, performed with great success on the interesting popular instrument of South Germany, the zitter, or German guitar, improved by himself. Rob MacKillop -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Edvard Storm Ms.
Stuart Walsh wrote: Frank, it did appear on the vihuela list. Good. Apparently neither your original post nor my reply appeared on the cittern list though, so I suppose everybody here are a bit confused what it's all about right now. ;-) Quick summary: After I mentioned the Storm ms. here about a month ago (the 18th German Cittern Tuning thread - 29-09-08), Rocky Mjos contacted me for more info about it. I sent him scans of the cittern related pages I have copies of (all the music but none of the pages with playing instructions) and he took the job of transcribing the music, posting it at the earlyguitar ning: http://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/RockyMjos At the moment there are still a few unanswered (and possibly unanswerable) questions about the music: what kind of cittern it was written for, how many courses it had, how it was tuned, what cittern tradition it belongs to etc. Stuart Walsh wrote: So what size instrument are we talking about? A small bell cittern or something bigger? We don't know if it was a bell cittern at all. The tuning intervals seems to suggest that but it still may have been any kind of European 18th C. cittern. Rocky gives a tuning with a top d'' which implies a small thing. Good point. Rocky's info is from an article describing the manuscript (sorry, can't remember the author at the moment). It's quite possible either that article of Storm himself got it an octave wrong. Ages ago you (Frank,or was it Are) said that Bellman had two citterns: a bell cittern from his grandfather and a smaller (!) instrument. Oh no, Bellman's second instrument was larger than his first with a bunch of extra theorbo style bass strings. We have absolutely no clue as to how Bellman tuned either of his citterns though (or maybe we have - let me think about this). In any case there doesn't seem to be any strong connection between Bellman and Storm so it may not be relevant. So there were larger bell citterns? I'm beginning to realise I know absolutely nothing about the Hamburger citrinchen. I've always thought of it as a kind of fancy shaped English guittar and never understood how small it really is. There was an 18th century bell cittern at least as big as a modern waldzither (probably close to a portuguese guitar in size) and at least sometimes with one or two extra bass strings in addition to the five double courses. It was known in Hamburg and in various places in Scandinavia. Is that news? I always thought that was the size of the Hamburger citrinchen. Here is a well-known painting of Carl Michael Bellman with his old bell cittern: http://hem.passagen.se/iblis/bellman.jpg Even allowing for the inexact propotions of a painting, this certainly isn't a small instrument. I wrote in an earlier post: Bellman played a six course bell cittern he had inherited from his grandfather through most of his career. Woops, seems it had *seven* courses! Sorry! And the Storm MS cittern is obviously for fingerstyle play but evidently the existing tablatures for the bell cittern imply plectrum technique (tiny pluckies usually do). Perhaps then the Storm MS is for a larger instrument? Good point. You will notice from the painting that Bellman too seems to have played with his fingers. In the Storm MS the instrument is described as 'zitter' but don't Norwegians use the term 'sister'? Sister is a fairly modern term, introduced to distinguish it from the alpine zither that appeared during the 19th century. I seem to remember that Germans called their cittern, the 'zitter' (but I can't find where I got this idea from.) Maybe cyster, sister,sittra, zitter, zither are just as interchangeable as guitar, guittar, cetra, citra etc in Britain. Yes. Does the tablature unambiguously show seven courses? .. Mm..interesting. So perhaps a fruitful and intriguing difference of opinion between your interpretation of the MS and Rocky's? Probably. Unfortunately the only way to answer the question properly is to locate Storm's cittern or the original he copied the music from. Unfortunately there's very little chance that'll happen. Rocky has interpreted the two different ways of notating bass notes as signifying two different bass strings. This is certainly what a transcriber should do - adding a note about the issue and leaving the decision to the interpreter. The problem is that this doesn't really seem to fit musically. Some bass notes are clearly wrong when played on a seventh rather than the sixth course. On the occasions where seventh course bass notes do fit the harmonies, they invariably lead to 2nd inversion chords that don't seem to fit any musical style that may be relevant in this context. Storm wasn't a professional musician but his piano compositions and arrangements show that he had a fairly good understanding of the basis harmonisation principles of his time. He certainly knew about chord inversions and wouldn't
[CITTERN] Re: Further from Ferries ...
Hello, I don't find any video featuring cittern music. Damien - Original Message - From: Eleanor Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: cittern list cittern@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 10:54 PM Subject: [CITTERN] Further from Ferries ... Another three videos up of Gordon Ferries including his debut theorbo recording! Two others shot in the rather interesting acoustic of an Edinburgh stairwell ... well worth a nosey at www.youtube.com/bananamunga or www.gordonferries.com. All the best, Elly -- Ms Eleanor Smith, MMus PhD Candidate: Organology University of Edinburgh c/o St Cecilia's Hall 220 Cowgate, Niddry Street Edinburgh EH1 1LJ -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Dibdin and 'English' guitar settings.
Martyn Hodgson wrote: Could anyone kindly let me have copies of contemporary arrangements (ie c 1772) for 'English' guitar of music from 'The Brickdust Man' by Charles Dibdin (1745 - 1814). Preferably facsimile but anything welcome! Martyn Hodgson A quick glance at the BL's online catalogue doesn't show anything. I tried Dibdin+guitar (24 items) and Dibdin+guittar (5 items). There are some songs from 'The Padlock' but perhaps some of the other songs mentioned in the BL catalogue are from 'The Brickdust Man'? If you have a copy of the music - just transpose take the melody and transpose it to C major as a single line! Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1719 - Release Date: 10/10/2008 16:08
[CITTERN] Dibdin and 'English' guitar settings.
Could anyone kindly let me have copies of contemporary arrangements (ie c 1772) for 'English' guitar of music from 'The Brickdust Man' by Charles Dibdin (1745 - 1814). Preferably facsimile but anything welcome! Martyn Hodgson To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Dibdin and 'English' guitar settings.
Many thanks Stuart, I had already searched the BL catalogue but thank you. I do have the score and I can of course make my own arrangement for the 'English' guitar but wanted to see the contemporary arrangement which was published and, I believe, extant if not catalogued, to compare with Fiske's expansion of the short score Dibdin had published around 1772.. rgds Martyn --- On Sat, 11/10/08, Stuart Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Stuart Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CITTERN] Dibdin and 'English' guitar settings. To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], cittern list cittern@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 11 October, 2008, 11:37 AM Martyn Hodgson wrote: Could anyone kindly let me have copies of contemporary arrangements (ie c 1772) for 'English' guitar of music from 'The Brickdust Man' by Charles Dibdin (1745 - 1814). Preferably facsimile but anything welcome! Martyn Hodgson A quick glance at the BL's online catalogue doesn't show anything. I tried Dibdin+guitar (24 items) and Dibdin+guittar (5 items). There are some songs from 'The Padlock' but perhaps some of the other songs mentioned in the BL catalogue are from 'The Brickdust Man'? If you have a copy of the music - just transpose take the melody and transpose it to C major as a single line! Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1719 - Release Date: 10/10/2008 16:08
[CITTERN] Re: 18th German cittern tuning
I think the tuning is similar to one of Kremberg's, near the turn of the century. I have to check. No doubt Martina will have some info. doc On Sep 27, 2008, at 12:40 AM, Andrew Rutherford wrote: Hello citternophiles, There is a book of chorales in tablature from c.1750 in the Moravian Archives in Bethlehem PA, that may be for cittern. The tuning is GCEGBE. Is that right for that time? Most of the Moravians came from Germany and spoke German. And there is documentation that they used the cittern in their worship. There is also a lute-shaped, possibly wire-strung 6-course instrument in the Moravian Hist. Soc. in Nazareth,PA (10 miles away)dating from the same time that may be related. I will put pictures of it on the [1]citten.ning.com site in a few days. Are there other books of tablature for cittern from that time? Can't wait to get some responses, andy rutherford -- References 1. http://citten.ning.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
