Re: In case you missed it..
and, to bring the thread full-circle and kick a dead horse... saw this today. http://cgmemes.blogspot.com/2012/09/best-particles-system-ever.html
RE: In case you missed it.
Dear Brethren in Softimage, I think this is the longest thread here, on Softimage list… I think one of the biggest mistake was removing the client stories….like Metal Gear Solid, and so on. There are plenty of studios using Softimage for games, not just in Asia, but for example, we at Crytek Budapest rely mostly on Softimage. And I know that \SI has the place all over the industry, however, apparently not in leading role…However, I had several interviews in the last years, and when it was about the 3d package they use for production, in many cases they told me, that the primary tool is Maya/Max, but there are artists who insists using Softimage, so I could use it. Especially since it ships in the Entertainment Suite. So, spreading it this way is a cool move. However, I’d like to see more success stories. How SI was used in that and that movie, game, ad, whatever. Even if the final result was delivered in Max/Maya/ whatever… So make some noise, the Facebook page is OK, I do like every comment, just to make some buzz among my acquaintances. But I’d like to see interviews with companies, how they used SI, what they love, what they would change, etc. Keep an eye on ZBrushcentral, they are doing marvelous job on self-promotion with their interviews. So, the move is your, guys at Autodesk! Szabolcs From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of ThomasV Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 7:03 AM To: Maurice Patel; softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: RE: In case you missed it. +1000 to everyone for turning this thread into something constructive! I love you all! ...and yeah, I am two hours early for work :/ /Thomas Maurice Patel maurice.pa...@autodesk.com hat am 14. September 2012 um 00:34 geschrieben: Hi Matt, You are spot on when it comes to the importance of relevant information. Last year I specifically worked with the AREA Team on this issue. We had a challenge that unless you are a top revenue product you disappear on .com and there was no one place that was really good to send people for more detailed information. We decided to create a section on AREA where we could do that - a richer product home so to speak. One that could be fuelled not only by us but by the community too. We still need to tie the Social Media aspect into it and are working on things like social sign on. But yes ultimately it would be great if we can continue to refine and expand on this aspect of the site. And yes you can access it from the homepage :) http://www.the-area.com/products/view/softimage Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Matt Lind Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 6:26 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: RE: In case you missed it.. I agree. I don't know about anybody else, but I could care less about demo reels. The only time I see them is when I'm at a user group or waiting for a product demonstration to begin, and since there are no more user groups and product demos are basically web downloads, where do I see demos today? Mostly as screen savers at siggraph when the demo guy is taking a lunch break. I don't hang around those booths because I visit booths to talk to people and ask questions. Demo reels are important for students and people new to the industry as a whole, but I think they're irrelevant for people who have been in the industry a while because they become jaded like me from having seen it all before. We need something more that currently isn't being delivered. As a more experienced and mature demographic, what I want is information. I want to see benefit in black and white. I want to determine if I can truly work smarter, not harder, compared to what I'm doing now. I think this aspect of Softimage marketing has been absent for the past 10 years. The exception being the debut of ICE with v7.0. Prior to that the last time I saw something informative that made me pay attention was the animation mixer and perhaps GATOR. However, even in those cases the demos weren't very informative, they were more eye candy pieces. What I seek is a short synopsis like a movie trailer (length) that is information driven. If it catches my interest, let me watch something more in-depth to get the answers to my questions. These don't have to be high-tech demonstrations, just clearly *informative and comprehensive* relative to what's being marketed. Stay way from glossy buzz words and trendy catch phrases. Focus more on the information's value to educate the target audience. I used to demo Softimage in my locale when Softimage didn't have the budget to send somebody out from Montreal. I am information driven, and was always told by attendees
Re: In case you missed it..
I've gotten the feeling that asian vfx work gets a lot less exposure than American/European.It could just be that the feeds I got are too western-centric, but I dont see the problem with having japanese work showcased more than non-asian (given that XSI is more common there). 2012/9/14 Muhamad Faizol Abd. Halim faizol@gmail.com how about translating the success stories from Japan's Autodesk (Softimage)? On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 6:34 AM, Maurice Patel maurice.pa...@autodesk.com wrote: Hi Matt, You are spot on when it comes to the importance of relevant information. Last year I specifically worked with the AREA Team on this issue. We had a challenge that unless you are a top revenue product you disappear on .com and there was no one place that was really good to send people for more detailed information. We decided to create a section on AREA where we could do that - a richer product home so to speak. One that could be fuelled not only by us but by the community too. We still need to tie the Social Media aspect into it and are working on things like social sign on. But yes ultimately it would be great if we can continue to refine and expand on this aspect of the site. And yes you can access it from the homepage :) http://www.the-area.com/products/view/softimage Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Matt Lind Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 6:26 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: RE: In case you missed it.. I agree. I don't know about anybody else, but I could care less about demo reels. The only time I see them is when I'm at a user group or waiting for a product demonstration to begin, and since there are no more user groups and product demos are basically web downloads, where do I see demos today? Mostly as screen savers at siggraph when the demo guy is taking a lunch break. I don't hang around those booths because I visit booths to talk to people and ask questions. Demo reels are important for students and people new to the industry as a whole, but I think they're irrelevant for people who have been in the industry a while because they become jaded like me from having seen it all before. We need something more that currently isn't being delivered. As a more experienced and mature demographic, what I want is information. I want to see benefit in black and white. I want to determine if I can truly work smarter, not harder, compared to what I'm doing now. I think this aspect of Softimage marketing has been absent for the past 10 years. The exception being the debut of ICE with v7.0. Prior to that the last time I saw something informative that made me pay attention was the animation mixer and perhaps GATOR. However, even in those cases the demos weren't very informative, they were more eye candy pieces. What I seek is a short synopsis like a movie trailer (length) that is information driven. If it catches my interest, let me watch something more in-depth to get the answers to my questions. These don't have to be high-tech demonstrations, just clearly *informative and comprehensive* relative to what's being marketed. Stay way from glossy buzz words and trendy catch phrases. Focus more on the information's value to educate the target audience. I used to demo Softimage in my locale when Softimage didn't have the budget to send somebody out from Montreal. I am information driven, and was always told by attendees that they felt my demos were the most helpful to make decisions. I don't know if sales improved or not as I didn't have access to that information, but the feedback I received from all demos were pretty consistent. I think people are starved for facts as they don't want to have to wade through all the BS to get the info they seek, and in many cases, some people are making decisions to expand a company or switch a pipeline and aren't fully informed themselves what they are looking for because perhaps they're striving for something a bit outside of their comfort zone or level of experience. Informative demos help them, and a good informative demo will entice a customer to follow up. Matt From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Sam Cuttriss Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 2:50 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. Stop thinking of advertising/ demonstration/ documentation and education as isolated entities. in doing so you can make the money you spend massively more productive. look at the success of stephen blairs blog: http://xsisupport.com/ ( Its criminally insane you fired him by the way ) its a go to site for anyone using ice. With a little work something like that could be dressed up as a showcase of softimage work and a technical reference
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Forever alone! don't know wether to laugh or cry at this :s On 14 September 2012 01:24, Eric Thivierge ethivie...@gmail.com wrote: For some fun since its Friday in OZ: http://cgmemes.blogspot.com.au/2012/09/proud-but-lonely.html?spref=tw Eric Thivierge http://www.ethivierge.com
RE: In case you missed it..
We're on the same wavelength, but maybe from opposite ends. The thing to bare in mind, is that the context of the demo can determine how it's actually done and what gets presented. If you look at our booth feature demos or the new feature videos that are produced, then yes I could see that you have a point. However in the context of doing theatre or a video for product launch, you don't have the luxury of sitting in front of a customer and extracting specific information. You also only have a kinda limited time, to the information across which isn't easy. Online videos can't be long, so they have to be simple and high level. Doing a GDC/Sigg/IBC/NAB theatre demo, you might have 45-60mins for a Suite presentation, which broken down evenly only really gives you 15mins per product, which frankly is nothing. And even for more localized events with our distributors and resellers, you don't get much more time. In some ways, you could say there's a flaw in this (which I have raised) because by only having a limited amount of time, you dilute the message so much that it kinda becomes meaningless. But these things are really meant to be the hooks in which you can hopefully grab people, so you can get in front of them another time, with more time. Coming from production myself, I approach my customer demos in a similar way you mention. And I much prefer to understand a customer's needs before going to see them, instead of just arriving cold, providing of course that the sales rep has done his homework, which isn't always the case. :) You touch on one thing thought has kinda frustrated me more and more recently, and that's the demos and assets we have shown don't seem to really apply or resonate with customers and their projects. I recall the criticism on this list of the Max After Effects demo, we've also had a chameleon on a skateboard (watch someone now show me a spot of chameleon on a skateboard), and we can't seem to avoid using an orc/weird character for Mudbox demos, when the package can do a lot more. :) I'm not meaning to take cheap shots at our Tech Marketing guys, as they actually do a good job with the time and resources they have. However, I do think we do sometimes miss the odd trick or two. It's always good to be able to use actual real customer data (and we sometimes do) but this isn't always the case. Despite a willingness from people to give us data, it very often doesn't happen. When it comes to the agreements, client relations, legal usage, etc, things often break down and we can't get stuff. Which then means creating stuff ourselves, which is more time consuming. Assets and scene data is only one aspect though, ultimately the workflows and scenarios still have to work and look tangible. I do believe we can make some improvement in some areas and at present I'm seeing what we can do, going forward into next year. We have had some good stuff though, especially with Hyperspace Madness, which was the actual game we made. Making a game in 3 months isn't easy but because we did, the assets and workflows that were produced did have a better sense of reality to them. G From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Matt Lind Sent: 14 September 2012 01:08 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: RE: In case you missed it.. Yes and no. I think most of the demos I've seen dance around the elephant in the room. Nobody takes it head on and do the hard sell through information. My greatest disappointment is I feel I waste tons of time to get the information I'm really wanting to know. I have to play 1,000 grains of sand and build up facts from all walks of life just to arrive at a simple answer to what I often feel is a basic question. It's very tiring. Another problem I see with the demos is most are not applicable to production - or at least the productions I work on. They're, as I said earlier, eye candy. There needs to be more use cases, not just in what was done, but how the process could be improved using the product's strengths outside of what the production actually did. Have adjustments been made to the product since that production? Is the product going to steer in that direction? Many customers do ask the 2-3 questions you cite, but my usual response to those as a demo person was to try to expand their thinking into 'what if you work this way..., let me show you how this product can do that'. I haven't seen that in a very long time. Most demo artists today are paid to show up at booth for a few days and they don't get into the fact they are a salesman and should be brainstorming with the customer to make that product a sale. They do the script and react to a few questions, but don't tend to go much beyond that. Sure, some customers know their stuff and don't need/want that pitch, but you can figure that out pretty quickly once you engage
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I always wondered what that meme was. Now I know it's me :( On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 9:57 AM, Rob Chapman tekano@gmail.com wrote: Forever alone! don't know wether to laugh or cry at this :s On 14 September 2012 01:24, Eric Thivierge ethivie...@gmail.com wrote: For some fun since its Friday in OZ: http://cgmemes.blogspot.com.au/2012/09/proud-but-lonely.html?spref=tw Eric Thivierge http://www.ethivierge.com
RE: In case you missed it..
HI Bradley, Particles is just an example of one of the things ICE can DO. This is not what Marketing things ICE IS. Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Bradley Gabe Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 8:54 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. I find it amazing that XSI, once considered the laughingstock of the dcc animation apps with respect to its particle system is now surviving mostly because of the strength of its particle system. And the irony of course is, ICE is not really a particle system and marketing it as such has always been shortsighted. ICE is a custom operator construction kit. Particles effects are merely one output you can get from the system. On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 7:40 PM, Nick Angus n...@altvfx.commailto:n...@altvfx.com wrote: I should have clarified, I meant Houdini only for assembly/effects/rendering, certainly not for modelling/rigging/animation... N From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Raffaele Fragapane Sent: Friday, 14 September 2012 10:32 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. I've got to say I'm puzzled by the threats to drop AD products to move to Houdini if they were to discontinue Soft. Houdini is a great software for a number of reasons, and has a broad range of applications, not to mention probably the most open and solid approach to assets out there. I do keep eyes on it regularly, every release, and I used it in the past for more than a handful of shots. That said, do the people making these threats work on a relatively narrow type of shots? Because there is much where Houdini simply can't hold onto a market, not in terms of dialogue with the client base (which is somewhat narrowly focused for the largest part), nor in terms of features and actual turn around time for a task. Character tools in Houdini in example are daunting to put together, and performance, even when you try and squeeze every frame out of it, is simply not there. While I'd probably love the troubleshooting, asset cobbling and technical animation process in Houdini, if I was asked to turn around an animation rig in it, even without considering the sheer amount of tools and API work we layered on top of XSI or Maya, I'd have to literally triple my quotes, and would be very hard pressed finding any competent staff with some domain knowledge to take on it. We all like to say that the application isn't important, skills are portable and so on, and to an extent it's true, but the whole extent of rigging, shaving the development edges off, is largely domain knowledge of the app, and in Houdini's case even more so, because it might be transparent and intuitive for somebody approaching it from the right angle, but it's a very hard software to migrate button pushers to, and still more than a small challenge to find your way through if you come from Max, Maya or Soft. It was simply never taken far along enough the rigging and animation route by enough people for the tools to get there. Even Maya, with its current unbelievably tall stash of broken nuggets and idiosyncrasies, is a much more well rounded tool for that. The shops that tried to have it end to end have -all- tanked (of course not because of Houdini, but it does mean no single client ever pushed them consistently in those regards for longer than a year or two), and if you ask the very, very large number of people around here who had their induction to Houdini in DrD (which also tanked) for things other than FX, the majority I talked to literally said they would turn down a job rather than light a shot in Houdini again (as did anmators from CORE when we took them on for Charlotte's web years ago when I was in RSP). The few who actually enjoyed it tend to be those who had extensive troubleshooting in their responsibilities, or were more than a bit of the technical persuasion. That's the problem I have with this monopoly, and with the competing offers coming out. Like it or not there are TWO truly character and animation capable applications suitable for the mid-sized team and up, and that's Soft and Maya, and it shows that that market is cornered, because it's been stagnating for years. So, go ahead, try to pull together a functional rig and then animate it in Houdini, and let me know how it goes. I did, several times, and while I enjoyed the process, and would like to believe I have the foundations knowledge to deal with a software like H, it's a long hard walk to get things out, with many missing tools in the way. Yes, you can quickly cook up a VOP or a SOP of some description to do many
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It's definitely true about big companies writing their own software. From a rigging standpoint, Maya has some good things but is definitely outdated and unintuitive, and I'm not so fan of Softimage anymore as I used to be in the old times. Requirements have changed, not softwares (excluding ICE). Like you Kris, when I saw Autodesk buying Softimage, all I wished for was to see something new emerging out... taking the best of everything and pushing it to the next level. Sounds like Autodesk is not so keen with that. Maybe they knew that the userbase of big studios grown pissed off after being stuck with non-evolving softwares and that they wouldn't want to renew the experience, especially seeing how dependant they became after developing all their pipeline around those, and seeing how tricky it is to get away from it now. But I'm feeling relieved to see projects like Fabric Engine taking shape. That's totally promising and hopefully it will start a new era of more dynamic softwares (no pressure Fabric devs!). Now, I've been wondering... why did Guillaume Laforge ended up leaving Autodesk? :) On 13 September 2012 13:45, Kris Rivel krisri...@gmail.com wrote: Exactly. Its interesting for sure and I'm curious to see how Autodesk plays their cards. I think now is the time more than ever to gather all three user bases together and do something new. They should of already started given the amount of time it takes to build software like this. I for one am pushing more into realtime and gaming. Been learning Unity more and loving it. To Autodesk employees on the list...take this to your meeting with the head of ME...and whatever they say to shoot down what we're saying...he/she is dead wrong...I promise you. Autodesk needs to be on the fast track to unifying the user base and taking us somewhere new, fresh and for the next decadeand in the meantime, equally supporting all three appsor it will collapse and shift elsewhere. But maybe they don't really care...ME after all is a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of their business. Kris On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 PM, Eric Thivierge ethivie...@gmail.comwrote: I agree Kris, Some major players in what may just be the downfall of AD right now: 1) Autodesk - you're proving to be your own worst enemy 2) Big studios building their own proprietary systems not based on Maya, its increasing from what I've heard lately from people at Siggraph and others in the industry 3) Fabric - can be utilized over the web and as python apps 4) TeamUp - They've definitely got the cloud thing going well and can only see it getting better. AD needs to worry about #1 most. Eric Thivierge http://www.ethivierge.com
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I completely agree with this Marc. There is so much negative sentiment in this thread that I'd be surprised if AD is still listening. Some of the folks there are probably pretty proud to work for them and have a genuine interest in Soft, so this thread is painful reading. I don't agree with the marketing of soft at all, but I do still 'evangelize' the product, and will continue to do so until there is something which for us as a studio works better (we jumped from Maya to Soft about 5 years ago and haven't looked back since). If AD were to sink this beautiful ship then so be it. Until that point for the good of my sanity, my crew and my studio, I will continue to push the usage of Softimage, and ignore a small graphic that is very hard to find (I'm on the marketing lists for Max, Maya and Soft, and pretty much every other bit of AD spam plus my reseller) and never personally received or saw it. There is little point in begrudging the AD employees that are doing what they can do with what resources they have to keep soft out there - these are the guys that are 'on our side'. Stating that the software is EOL is also massively counter-productive, it's a lovely juicy soundbite to throw around the office. Shit sticks, even if it's unfounded. The proof of commitment (or not) will be seen in the next release. Cheers, Jules On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:36 PM, Marc Brinkley marc.brink...@microsoft.comwrote: So um, i just thinking that if I were ADSK and was listening to this conversation My existing customers of the software believe the software is EOL My existing customers of the software are telling other customers not to bother instead of evangelizing the software. My customers decide not to believe me when i say we are continuing to develop the software even when several members of team directly say it. If I were in their shoes, what do you suppose I would be thinking. Seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me. Not directed to anyone specifically. But if we dont believe they why should they. All things will end eventually, sure, and I am tried of fighting an up hill battle, sure. But until I get a letter specifically stating EOL and here are my side grade (or ahem, down grade) options to other software, I will keep on using it. :D Sent from my car while driving -- From: Rob Chapman Sent: 9/12/2012 1:13 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. So Maurice, A brave effort with your rhetoric but sadly the results you achieved are letting you down. It is exactly what we did not expect or *were used to*before you are your crew took it upon yourselves to remarket Softimage within the given framework of ME apps at AD. Do you think what you have done has improved things for the existing Softimage user base? can you account for how Softimage has less penetration now in the market as a fully featured Application to base an entire pipeline off** and has much less 'perceived' value than before you began your current campaign? bravo! didnt you do well!? I believe you have failed quite miserably at your job and should most definitely be more respectful than 'be happy with possible increased sales and deal with it' to those whose value as professionals within this industry are greatly diminished than they were 4 years ago. Are you at all surprised that those you have sacrificed to the greater good that is Maya don't want any further business with Autodesk? **where I work the studio has many hundreds of commercials,3 short movies with countless awards and one was bafta nominated this year - all made with this measly particle plugin and not a single Maya or Max in sight. On 12 September 2012 20:41, Maurice Patel maurice.pa...@autodesk.comwrote: Well, we have said that we are committed to developing and marketing Softimage. It might not be exactly in the way you expect but that commitment has been explicitly stated by myself and others. The discussion has been about our tactics and why we do things the way we do. Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Daniel H Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 2:59 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. Re: We are very well aware and I and my team work hard to do the most we can with the resources we have. - Maurice Patel Seriously Maurice... you have any-time access to freely speak directly to the main vein of the SI community. Does it cost AD anything to make a simple text statement of confidence on a list, blog, or forum? Is Autodesk really committed to the future and continuing development of Softimage? Is Softimage just being used as acquired tech to be robbed from? It's ok if it's the later, although we won't transition over to Maya, we'll just counter by transitioning
Re: In case you missed it..
into marketing Suites and this also drives 3ds Max and Maya traffic to the site we were not not going to mention the fact that Maya and 3ds Max users get benefit from adding it to their pipeline. Maya 3ds Max mentions compositing because it includes the software applications Composite and MatchMover in the box. Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Kiril Aronofski Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 1:33 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. In fact, if you check, this is exactly how we do market it: (www.autodesk.com/softimagehttp://www.autodesk.com/softimagehttp://www.autodesk.com/softimage ). As an extension to Autodesk® Maya®http://www.autodesk.com/maya or Autodesk® 3ds Max®http://www.autodesk.com/3dsmax software pipelines, while Maya is 3D animation software that delivers a comprehensive creative feature set with tools for animation, modeling, simulation, rendering, matchmoving, and compositing on a highly extensible production platform, and 3dsMax provides a comprehensive, integrated 3D modeling, animation, rendering, and compositing solution for game developers, visual effects artists, and motion graphics artists along with other creative professionals working in the media design industry. Maya is even a compositing package here, something that is only half true (and I'm being generous), while Softimage indeed does have an integrated compositor and its not even mentioned on the Features page. So again, which one of these 3 is being sold short? compose-unknown-contact.jpgMaurice Patel Wednesday, September 12, 2012 2:18 PM Yes but as the copy states: Autodesk® Softimage® software is a high-performance 3D character animation and visual effectshttp://www.autodesk.com/visualeffectssoftware application. Given that a lot of effort is going into marketing Suites and this also drives 3ds Max and Maya traffic to the site we were not not going to mention the fact that Maya and 3ds Max users get benefit from adding it to their pipeline. Maya 3ds Max mentions compositing because it includes the software applications Composite and MatchMover in the box. Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Kiril Aronofski Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 1:33 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. In fact, if you check, this is exactly how we do market it: (www.autodesk.com/softimagehttp://www.autodesk.com/softimagehttp://www.autodesk.com/softimage ). As an extension to Autodesk® Maya®http://www.autodesk.com/maya or Autodesk® 3ds Max®http://www.autodesk.com/3dsmax software pipelines, while Maya is 3D animation software that delivers a comprehensive creative feature set with tools for animation, modeling, simulation, rendering, matchmoving, and compositing on a highly extensible production platform, and 3dsMax provides a comprehensive, integrated 3D modeling, animation, rendering, and compositing solution for game developers, visual effects artists, and motion graphics artists along with other creative professionals working in the media design industry. Maya is even a compositing package here, something that is only half true (and I'm being generous), while Softimage indeed does have an integrated compositor and its not even mentioned on the Features page. So again, which one of these 3 is being sold short? compose-unknown-contact.jpgKiril Aronofski Wednesday, September 12, 2012 1:32 PM In fact, if you check, this is exactly how we do market it: (www.autodesk.com/softimagehttp://www.autodesk.com/softimage ). As an extension to Autodesk® Maya® or Autodesk® 3ds Max® software pipelines, while Maya is 3D animation software that delivers a comprehensive creative feature set with tools for animation, modeling, simulation, rendering, matchmoving, and compositing on a highly extensible production platform, and 3dsMax provides a comprehensive, integrated 3D modeling, animation, rendering, and compositing solution for game developers, visual effects artists, and motion graphics artists along with other creative professionals working in the media design industry. Maya is even a compositing package here, something that is only half true (and I'm being generous), while Softimage indeed does have an integrated compositor and its not even mentioned on the Features page. So again, which one of these 3 is being sold short? On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 7:16 PM, Maurice Patel maurice.pa...@autodesk.com wrote: Just to be clear. I run Product Marketing so what you see is in mainly a direct result of my efforts – no mysterious “Autodesk” bogey man. I am ex-softimage
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It aint my fault Oddball Ive had nothing but good thoughts ever since we left that damn bridge :) On 13 September 2012 09:43, piotrek marczak piotrek.marc...@gmail.comwrote: well said! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuStsFW4EmQ
RE: In case you missed it..
I agree, but it can be hard to be completely open about things due to the business rules we have to adhere too. What I would say in this case, is being as this studio is in EMEA- Europe, then they should try and contact me, or the Autodesk rep (not the reseller), instead of filling in the blanks themselves. G From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Rob Wuijster Sent: 13 September 2012 09:49 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. To put out a more positive comment... I'm pretty happy with my SI2013SP1 and Arnold combo. I still see a steady stream of really nice plugins, ICE tools and such pass me by on the forums. It's never been this good before version 7 or so. All this doom and gloom talk isn't helping, and at some point will spiral into a self-fulfilling prophecy. I visited one of the few SI places in Amsterdam lately, and the talk was quickly on AD is about to kill off SI. All this mumbling makes people very twitchy. We're all very passionate about our software. And when I'm seeing great render engines and tools pop up for Softimage again and again, I still see a nice future for Softimage. Maybe AD can finally be a little less cryptic on the whole thing, and maybe Chris can give us some small spoilers on what's ahead for SI2014. So we can all go back to doing the thing we love, creating great looking images with our beloved particle app. ;-) peace? Rob \/-\/\/ On 13-9-2012 10:12, Jules Stevenson wrote: I completely agree with this Marc. There is so much negative sentiment in this thread that I'd be surprised if AD is still listening. Some of the folks there are probably pretty proud to work for them and have a genuine interest in Soft, so this thread is painful reading. I don't agree with the marketing of soft at all, but I do still 'evangelize' the product, and will continue to do so until there is something which for us as a studio works better (we jumped from Maya to Soft about 5 years ago and haven't looked back since). If AD were to sink this beautiful ship then so be it. Until that point for the good of my sanity, my crew and my studio, I will continue to push the usage of Softimage, and ignore a small graphic that is very hard to find (I'm on the marketing lists for Max, Maya and Soft, and pretty much every other bit of AD spam plus my reseller) and never personally received or saw it. There is little point in begrudging the AD employees that are doing what they can do with what resources they have to keep soft out there - these are the guys that are 'on our side'. Stating that the software is EOL is also massively counter-productive, it's a lovely juicy soundbite to throw around the office. Shit sticks, even if it's unfounded. The proof of commitment (or not) will be seen in the next release. Cheers, Jules On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:36 PM, Marc Brinkley marc.brink...@microsoft.commailto:marc.brink...@microsoft.com wrote: So um, i just thinking that if I were ADSK and was listening to this conversation My existing customers of the software believe the software is EOL My existing customers of the software are telling other customers not to bother instead of evangelizing the software. My customers decide not to believe me when i say we are continuing to develop the software even when several members of team directly say it. If I were in their shoes, what do you suppose I would be thinking. Seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me. Not directed to anyone specifically. But if we dont believe they why should they. All things will end eventually, sure, and I am tried of fighting an up hill battle, sure. But until I get a letter specifically stating EOL and here are my side grade (or ahem, down grade) options to other software, I will keep on using it. :D Sent from my car while driving From: Rob Chapman Sent: 9/12/2012 1:13 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. So Maurice, A brave effort with your rhetoric but sadly the results you achieved are letting you down. It is exactly what we did not expect or were used to before you are your crew took it upon yourselves to remarket Softimage within the given framework of ME apps at AD. Do you think what you have done has improved things for the existing Softimage user base? can you account for how Softimage has less penetration now in the market as a fully featured Application to base an entire pipeline off** and has much less 'perceived' value than before you began your current campaign? bravo! didnt you do well!? I believe you have failed quite miserably at your job and should most definitely be more respectful than 'be happy with possible increased sales and deal with it' to those whose value as professionals within this industry
Re: In case you missed it..
Graham, is there some official word on when AD is planning the next release? SAP is going to be skipped, is that correct? More service packs? Full release in April, again? These business rules that don't allow disclosure of roadmap information are doing their part in this atmosphere of uncertainty, you see. Not much to be done about it, is there. Thanks, Eugen Am 13.09.2012 12:53, schrieb Graham Bell: I agree, but it can be hard to be completely open about things due to the business rules we have to adhere too. What I would say in this case, is being as this studio is in EMEA- Europe, then they should try and contact me, or the Autodesk rep (not the reseller), instead of filling in the blanks themselves. G From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Rob Wuijster Sent: 13 September 2012 09:49 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. To put out a more positive comment... I'm pretty happy with my SI2013SP1 and Arnold combo. I still see a steady stream of really nice plugins, ICE tools and such pass me by on the forums. It's never been this good before version 7 or so. All this doom and gloom talk isn't helping, and at some point will spiral into a self-fulfilling prophecy. I visited one of the few SI places in Amsterdam lately, and the talk was quickly on AD is about to kill off SI. All this mumbling makes people very twitchy. We're all very passionate about our software. And when I'm seeing great render engines and tools pop up for Softimage again and again, I still see a nice future for Softimage. Maybe AD can finally be a little less cryptic on the whole thing, and maybe Chris can give us some small spoilers on what's ahead for SI2014. So we can all go back to doing the thing we love, creating great looking images with our beloved particle app. ;-) peace? Rob \/-\/\/ On 13-9-2012 10:12, Jules Stevenson wrote: I completely agree with this Marc. There is so much negative sentiment in this thread that I'd be surprised if AD is still listening. Some of the folks there are probably pretty proud to work for them and have a genuine interest in Soft, so this thread is painful reading. I don't agree with the marketing of soft at all, but I do still 'evangelize' the product, and will continue to do so until there is something which for us as a studio works better (we jumped from Maya to Soft about 5 years ago and haven't looked back since). If AD were to sink this beautiful ship then so be it. Until that point for the good of my sanity, my crew and my studio, I will continue to push the usage of Softimage, and ignore a small graphic that is very hard to find (I'm on the marketing lists for Max, Maya and Soft, and pretty much every other bit of AD spam plus my reseller) and never personally received or saw it. There is little point in begrudging the AD employees that are doing what they can do with what resources they have to keep soft out there - these are the guys that are 'on our side'. Stating that the software is EOL is also massively counter-productive, it's a lovely juicy soundbite to throw around the office. Shit sticks, even if it's unfounded. The proof of commitment (or not) will be seen in the next release. Cheers, Jules On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:36 PM, Marc Brinkley marc.brink...@microsoft.commailto:marc.brink...@microsoft.com wrote: So um, i just thinking that if I were ADSK and was listening to this conversation My existing customers of the software believe the software is EOL My existing customers of the software are telling other customers not to bother instead of evangelizing the software. My customers decide not to believe me when i say we are continuing to develop the software even when several members of team directly say it. If I were in their shoes, what do you suppose I would be thinking. Seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me. Not directed to anyone specifically. But if we dont believe they why should they. All things will end eventually, sure, and I am tried of fighting an up hill battle, sure. But until I get a letter specifically stating EOL and here are my side grade (or ahem, down grade) options to other software, I will keep on using it. :D Sent from my car while driving From: Rob Chapman Sent: 9/12/2012 1:13 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. So Maurice, A brave effort with your rhetoric but sadly the results you achieved are letting you down. It is exactly what we did not expect or were used to before you are your crew took it upon yourselves to remarket Softimage within the given framework of ME apps at AD. Do you think what you have done has improved things for the existing Softimage user base? can you account for how Softimage has less penetration now in the market
RE: In case you missed it..
Sorry, I can't confirm anything about a future release and its ship date. Best I can say is look historically at recent releases, and you perhaps could get the general idea. G -Original Message- From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Eugen Sares Sent: 13 September 2012 12:16 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. Graham, is there some official word on when AD is planning the next release? SAP is going to be skipped, is that correct? More service packs? Full release in April, again? These business rules that don't allow disclosure of roadmap information are doing their part in this atmosphere of uncertainty, you see. Not much to be done about it, is there. Thanks, Eugen Am 13.09.2012 12:53, schrieb Graham Bell: I agree, but it can be hard to be completely open about things due to the business rules we have to adhere too. What I would say in this case, is being as this studio is in EMEA- Europe, then they should try and contact me, or the Autodesk rep (not the reseller), instead of filling in the blanks themselves. G From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Rob Wuijster Sent: 13 September 2012 09:49 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. To put out a more positive comment... I'm pretty happy with my SI2013SP1 and Arnold combo. I still see a steady stream of really nice plugins, ICE tools and such pass me by on the forums. It's never been this good before version 7 or so. All this doom and gloom talk isn't helping, and at some point will spiral into a self-fulfilling prophecy. I visited one of the few SI places in Amsterdam lately, and the talk was quickly on AD is about to kill off SI. All this mumbling makes people very twitchy. We're all very passionate about our software. And when I'm seeing great render engines and tools pop up for Softimage again and again, I still see a nice future for Softimage. Maybe AD can finally be a little less cryptic on the whole thing, and maybe Chris can give us some small spoilers on what's ahead for SI2014. So we can all go back to doing the thing we love, creating great looking images with our beloved particle app. ;-) peace? Rob \/-\/\/ On 13-9-2012 10:12, Jules Stevenson wrote: I completely agree with this Marc. There is so much negative sentiment in this thread that I'd be surprised if AD is still listening. Some of the folks there are probably pretty proud to work for them and have a genuine interest in Soft, so this thread is painful reading. I don't agree with the marketing of soft at all, but I do still 'evangelize' the product, and will continue to do so until there is something which for us as a studio works better (we jumped from Maya to Soft about 5 years ago and haven't looked back since). If AD were to sink this beautiful ship then so be it. Until that point for the good of my sanity, my crew and my studio, I will continue to push the usage of Softimage, and ignore a small graphic that is very hard to find (I'm on the marketing lists for Max, Maya and Soft, and pretty much every other bit of AD spam plus my reseller) and never personally received or saw it. There is little point in begrudging the AD employees that are doing what they can do with what resources they have to keep soft out there - these are the guys that are 'on our side'. Stating that the software is EOL is also massively counter-productive, it's a lovely juicy soundbite to throw around the office. Shit sticks, even if it's unfounded. The proof of commitment (or not) will be seen in the next release. Cheers, Jules On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:36 PM, Marc Brinkley marc.brink...@microsoft.commailto:marc.brink...@microsoft.com wrote: So um, i just thinking that if I were ADSK and was listening to this conversation My existing customers of the software believe the software is EOL My existing customers of the software are telling other customers not to bother instead of evangelizing the software. My customers decide not to believe me when i say we are continuing to develop the software even when several members of team directly say it. If I were in their shoes, what do you suppose I would be thinking. Seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me. Not directed to anyone specifically. But if we dont believe they why should they. All things will end eventually, sure, and I am tried of fighting an up hill battle, sure. But until I get a letter specifically stating EOL and here are my side grade (or ahem, down grade) options to other software, I will keep on using it. :D Sent from my car while driving From: Rob Chapman Sent: 9/12/2012 1:13 PM To: softimage
Re: In case you missed it..
: Rob Chapman Sent: 9/12/2012 1:13 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. So Maurice, A brave effort with your rhetoric but sadly the results you achieved are letting you down. It is exactly what we did not expect or were used to before you are your crew took it upon yourselves to remarket Softimage within the given framework of ME apps at AD. Do you think what you have done has improved things for the existing Softimage user base? can you account for how Softimage has less penetration now in the market
Re: In case you missed it..
: Rob Chapman Sent: 9/12/2012 1:13 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. So Maurice, A brave effort with your rhetoric but sadly the results you achieved are letting you down. It is exactly what we did
Re: In case you missed it..
: Rob Chapman Sent: 9/12/2012 1:13 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com mailto: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. So Maurice, A brave effort with your rhetoric but sadly the results you achieved are letting you down. It is exactly what we did not expect or were used to before you are your crew took it upon yourselves to remarket Softimage within the given framework of ME apps at AD. Do you think what you have done has improved things for the existing Softimage user base? can you account for how Softimage has less penetration now in the market as a fully featured Application to base an entire pipeline off** and has much less 'perceived' value than before you began your current campaign? bravo! didnt you do well!? I believe you have failed quite miserably at your job and should most definitely be more respectful than 'be happy with possible increased sales and deal with it' to those whose value as professionals within this industry are greatly diminished than they were 4 years ago. Are you at all surprised that those you have sacrificed to the greater good that is Maya don't want any further business with Autodesk? **where I work the studio has many hundreds of commercials,3 short movies with countless awards and one was bafta nominated this year - all made with this measly particle plugin and not a single Maya or Max in sight. On 12 September 2012 20:41, Maurice Patel maurice.pa...@autodesk.com mailto:maurice.pa...@autodesk.com mailto:maurice.pa...@autodesk.com mailto:maurice.pa...@autodesk.com wrote: Well, we have said that we are committed to developing and marketing Softimage. It might not be exactly in the way you expect but that commitment has been explicitly stated by myself and others. The discussion has been about our tactics and why we do things the way we do. Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 tel:514%20954-7134 tel:514%20954-7134 From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com ] On Behalf Of Daniel H Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 2:59 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com mailto: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. Re: We are very well aware and I and my team work hard to do the most we can with the resources we have. - Maurice Patel Seriously Maurice... you have any-time access to freely speak directly to the main vein of the SI community. Does it cost AD anything to make a simple text statement of confidence on a list, blog, or forum? Is Autodesk really committed to the future and continuing development of Softimage? Is Softimage just being used as acquired tech to be robbed from? It's ok if it's the later, although we won't transition over to Maya, we'll just counter by transitioning to Houdini. Do you really want my continued business Maurice? Does Autodesk really want to keep my business? Should we just get it over with and start giving our hard-earned money to SideFX? 3D software isn't cheap ya know. What would you like us to do? Where's a free statement or two of confidence to keep us investing in Softimage? Daniel VFXM
Re: In case you missed it..
I really think it's a case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing. I think the devs, support, etc., folks are all going forward full-steam ahead have a great outlook on things. I think the pr, marketing management folks still call the software Soft Image and don't seem to know what it does, who uses it, or really care much to find out. (I still, to this day, get sales calls from AD referring to it as soft image) It doesn't take much to look at this list see all the people who'd love to showcase their use of Softimage. It's a brilliant piece of software and really is the best solution AD has to offer when you compare the 3 apps as they ship, unmodified. It's a shame AD (corporate) doesn't seem to know, understand or care about that. -Paul
Re: In case you missed it..
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:19 AM, Daniel H vfxc...@gmail.com wrote: Maya is only more prevalent in studios because it started out much cheaper than Softimage ($10K vs. $100K). Softimage is 24 years old and Maya is only 14 years old. All this time Maya has only been trying to play catch-up to SI. From what sort WTF mishmash reality is this? XSI 12 years old, Softimage|3D came before that it's a totally different product in the same way that Alias' PowerAnimator is different from Alias Maya Softimage|3D has never been 100k while Maya was around, and in 1998 when Maya was released Softiamge was 8000$, or 14000$ for the Extreme edition, the same price it has been since at leas 1993. Maya was 7500$, and 16000$ for the Completeedition, until the price drop to 2000$ and 7000$ in the year 2002, when at that point it already owned all the studios.
Re: In case you missed it..
The one thing I take from reading this thread is the Soft community at large is generally upset and concerned. Whether the individual concerns are real or perceived, I would think Autodesk would hear the frustration and appreciate where it's coming from. Even speak to how to resolve it perhaps. I for one, think Maurice is a brave soul coming into the lions den as it were, and speaking candidly. Attempting to show that Softimage is going forward, perhaps not in the primary marketing role it has enjoyed in the past. But to their credit, I'm a fan of the latest updates, the OGL viewport improvements for instance... So from my vantage point I see progress. Our industry is fairly new. A significant paradigm shift from one software to another has only REALLY happened once before. We've seen it from Soft/3d Alias P/A to the desktop XSI Maya respectively. Understanding where XSI came from, and how it was built helps us also understand WHY it's in the place it is. When Sumantra was created under AVID the developers at the time, as I understand it, were forced to use the Microsoft API. Building what was to be the 'new' foundation on something like Microsoft has been our biggest shortcoming concerning the open-nature of Soft. We've been overcoming that since day 1, and will continue to. Softimage has never recovered from those days as a userbase is concerned. This has been outlined in great detail in earlier posts in this thread. On the business side, Autodesk has it's own model for capturing new users. When you have more new Maya users each year, than the entire XSI userbase. It would be hard to justify holding XSI up in the Area of Excellence as it were. ;-) No amount of new marketing is going to change the momentum that Maya enjoys in schools, film, and elsewhere suddenly to Soft. Autodesk is going to continue to do what is best for Autodesk, why wouldn't they? The fact Maurice is standing by Softimage and trying to reassure the users it's here and should continue to be here is a positive thing in my mind. So I would hope we give him the benefit of the doubt? Maurice, if I might make a suggestion for whatever it's worth. When marketing suites and bundles. You might consider looking at Softimage as more of a 'generalist' out-of-the-box solution for smaller studios and commercial houses who might only have 10-20 artists and no development team. Maya out-of-the-box isn't *really* a generalists solution, Don't get me wrong.. it can be, and often IS done by some amazing artists. But anyone who's proficient in both, will be hard-pressed to explain how Maya out-of-the-box is more production ready than Softimage out-of-the-box. To promote Softimage as a generalist out-of-the-box solution from day 1 for smaller studios, I think would sit much better with the user community at large. I still think the Area of Excellence is only excellent if you have an RnD team, in-house developers, or a host of 3rd party plug-ins or scripts to get you a truly user-friendly experience. Bundles of Film, Games, and Commercial solutions isn't a terrible idea if you ask me. But then again, I'm just an end user, not a marketing whosit-whatsit. I also think this is the best time for Side FX. They are seeing a Renaissance, for the sake of innovation and competition I hope they are able to capitalize on the opportunities to woo new users. For the record.. I know and use Maya. But as a Commercial VFX Generalist. I chose XSI, and you'll have to pry it from my cold-dead hands before I switch. ;-) ( but I have started learning Houdini, you know.. 'cus that paradigm shift * will* happen ) cheers!
Re: In case you missed it..
There's a patent for XSI's QuickStretch deformer: http://www.google.com/patents?id=NxcgEBAJzoom=4dq=softimagepg=PA2#v=onepageqf=false How valuable! :p lol Kidding aside, there's a few more: https://www.google.com/search?tbo=ptbm=ptshl=enq=inassignee:%22Softimage%22 like one for cel shading. Also if anyone wants to sift through Avid's ten pages of patents: https://www.google.com/search?tbo=ptbm=ptshl=enq=inassignee:%22Avid+Technology,+Inc.%22 (Did you know you can patent icons? I had no idea.) On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 3:58 AM, Steven Caron car...@gmail.com wrote: talent mostly but there are patents some which you might not think are important. type in 'avid technologies render' in google patents search and see for yourself. halfdan posted this a long time ago i think, but the first comes to mind for me is the render region... http://www.google.com/patents?id=1k8EEBAJzoom=4dq=avid%20technology%20renderpg=PA12#v=onepageqf=false s On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 12:53 AM, Eric Thivierge ethivie...@gmail.comwrote: What patents? Eric Thivierge http://www.ethivierge.com On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 5:25 PM, Steven Caron car...@gmail.com wrote: get the talent and patents.
Re: In case you missed it..
One of my all-time favorite movies. On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 4:43 AM, piotrek marczak piotrek.marc...@gmail.comwrote: well said! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuStsFW4EmQ
Re: In case you missed it..
Well said Jeff. Maurice, if you're still reading, please consider his summary of Soft as a Generalists tool, because I feel that he pretty much nails it. Sure perhaps Soft is the closest thing AD has to compete with Houdini, so I understand the particles angle. However if you limit the scope to that alone, you're really missing an opportunity to capture users in the small to medium sized studio environments in TV and Film. Which as far as I can tell are where most of us on this list are at. I think it's pretty much at the heart of what has everyone so frustrated. Eric On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Jeffrey Dates jda...@kungfukoi.comwrote: The one thing I take from reading this thread is the Soft community at large is generally upset and concerned. Whether the individual concerns are real or perceived, I would think Autodesk would hear the frustration and appreciate where it's coming from. Even speak to how to resolve it perhaps. I for one, think Maurice is a brave soul coming into the lions den as it were, and speaking candidly. Attempting to show that Softimage is going forward, perhaps not in the primary marketing role it has enjoyed in the past. But to their credit, I'm a fan of the latest updates, the OGL viewport improvements for instance... So from my vantage point I see progress. Our industry is fairly new. A significant paradigm shift from one software to another has only REALLY happened once before. We've seen it from Soft/3d Alias P/A to the desktop XSI Maya respectively. Understanding where XSI came from, and how it was built helps us also understand WHY it's in the place it is. When Sumantra was created under AVID the developers at the time, as I understand it, were forced to use the Microsoft API. Building what was to be the 'new' foundation on something like Microsoft has been our biggest shortcoming concerning the open-nature of Soft. We've been overcoming that since day 1, and will continue to. Softimage has never recovered from those days as a userbase is concerned. This has been outlined in great detail in earlier posts in this thread. On the business side, Autodesk has it's own model for capturing new users. When you have more new Maya users each year, than the entire XSI userbase. It would be hard to justify holding XSI up in the Area of Excellence as it were. ;-) No amount of new marketing is going to change the momentum that Maya enjoys in schools, film, and elsewhere suddenly to Soft. Autodesk is going to continue to do what is best for Autodesk, why wouldn't they? The fact Maurice is standing by Softimage and trying to reassure the users it's here and should continue to be here is a positive thing in my mind. So I would hope we give him the benefit of the doubt? Maurice, if I might make a suggestion for whatever it's worth. When marketing suites and bundles. You might consider looking at Softimage as more of a 'generalist' out-of-the-box solution for smaller studios and commercial houses who might only have 10-20 artists and no development team. Maya out-of-the-box isn't *really* a generalists solution, Don't get me wrong.. it can be, and often IS done by some amazing artists. But anyone who's proficient in both, will be hard-pressed to explain how Maya out-of-the-box is more production ready than Softimage out-of-the-box. To promote Softimage as a generalist out-of-the-box solution from day 1 for smaller studios, I think would sit much better with the user community at large. I still think the Area of Excellence is only excellent if you have an RnD team, in-house developers, or a host of 3rd party plug-ins or scripts to get you a truly user-friendly experience. Bundles of Film, Games, and Commercial solutions isn't a terrible idea if you ask me. But then again, I'm just an end user, not a marketing whosit-whatsit. I also think this is the best time for Side FX. They are seeing a Renaissance, for the sake of innovation and competition I hope they are able to capitalize on the opportunities to woo new users. For the record.. I know and use Maya. But as a Commercial VFX Generalist. I chose XSI, and you'll have to pry it from my cold-dead hands before I switch. ;-) ( but I have started learning Houdini, you know.. 'cus that paradigm shift *will* happen ) cheers! -- Freelance 3D and VFX animator
RE: In case you missed it..
Ha ha! Scott Lange Animation and VFX From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Ed Manning Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 11:11 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. One of my all-time favorite movies. On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 4:43 AM, piotrek marczak piotrek.marc...@gmail.com wrote: well said! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuStsFW4EmQ
Re: In case you missed it..
Hate to be the one to send the negative wave, but if this thread convinced me of anything is that they will absolutely not be doing what you ask. Here's what Maurice said: Whether what we are doing is being elegantly done or not, Autodesk, across its industries,is trying to alter public perception: to move away from the notion of hero products that do everything to a suite of products that provide a best-in-class workflow to (eventually) a set of cloud services that offer you exactly what you need when and where you need it and for as long as you need it. This is a bit simplistic and Utopian but i am typing on a mobile device now. it is however at the heart of Autodesk's strategy. For Softimage, a good all-around package but without a significant market share, this is a deadly situation (no pun intended). That's my take on it, at least, and why the marketing has been as it was. No point in advertizing something opposite of your ultimate goal. But I am very confused how they think it will work. It's one thing to offer bundled products at lower prices, its completely different to insist on them. Kiril On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 5:14 PM, Eric Lampi ericla...@gmail.com wrote: Well said Jeff. Maurice, if you're still reading, please consider his summary of Soft as a Generalists tool, because I feel that he pretty much nails it. Sure perhaps Soft is the closest thing AD has to compete with Houdini, so I understand the particles angle. However if you limit the scope to that alone, you're really missing an opportunity to capture users in the small to medium sized studio environments in TV and Film. Which as far as I can tell are where most of us on this list are at. I think it's pretty much at the heart of what has everyone so frustrated. Eric On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Jeffrey Dates jda...@kungfukoi.comwrote: The one thing I take from reading this thread is the Soft community at large is generally upset and concerned. Whether the individual concerns are real or perceived, I would think Autodesk would hear the frustration and appreciate where it's coming from. Even speak to how to resolve it perhaps. I for one, think Maurice is a brave soul coming into the lions den as it were, and speaking candidly. Attempting to show that Softimage is going forward, perhaps not in the primary marketing role it has enjoyed in the past. But to their credit, I'm a fan of the latest updates, the OGL viewport improvements for instance... So from my vantage point I see progress. Our industry is fairly new. A significant paradigm shift from one software to another has only REALLY happened once before. We've seen it from Soft/3d Alias P/A to the desktop XSI Maya respectively. Understanding where XSI came from, and how it was built helps us also understand WHY it's in the place it is. When Sumantra was created under AVID the developers at the time, as I understand it, were forced to use the Microsoft API. Building what was to be the 'new' foundation on something like Microsoft has been our biggest shortcoming concerning the open-nature of Soft. We've been overcoming that since day 1, and will continue to. Softimage has never recovered from those days as a userbase is concerned. This has been outlined in great detail in earlier posts in this thread. On the business side, Autodesk has it's own model for capturing new users. When you have more new Maya users each year, than the entire XSI userbase. It would be hard to justify holding XSI up in the Area of Excellence as it were. ;-) No amount of new marketing is going to change the momentum that Maya enjoys in schools, film, and elsewhere suddenly to Soft. Autodesk is going to continue to do what is best for Autodesk, why wouldn't they? The fact Maurice is standing by Softimage and trying to reassure the users it's here and should continue to be here is a positive thing in my mind. So I would hope we give him the benefit of the doubt? Maurice, if I might make a suggestion for whatever it's worth. When marketing suites and bundles. You might consider looking at Softimage as more of a 'generalist' out-of-the-box solution for smaller studios and commercial houses who might only have 10-20 artists and no development team. Maya out-of-the-box isn't *really* a generalists solution, Don't get me wrong.. it can be, and often IS done by some amazing artists. But anyone who's proficient in both, will be hard-pressed to explain how Maya out-of-the-box is more production ready than Softimage out-of-the-box. To promote Softimage as a generalist out-of-the-box solution from day 1 for smaller studios, I think would sit much better with the user community at large. I still think the Area of Excellence is only excellent if you have an RnD team, in-house developers, or a host of 3rd party plug-ins or scripts to get you a truly user-friendly experience. Bundles of Film, Games, and Commercial
Re: In case you missed it..
+1 for Jeff and Eric. Softimage is, of the 3 AD 3D products, by far the best tool for a small or medium shop. Max seems to be good for solo performers or the places that take the time to really engineer a pipeline for it. Maya, as many here have noted, is great in a large-scale industrial pipelined environment. For the users, the UI and workflow of Soft is IMHO far superior, but let's face it, there are a lot of quirks there as well, as in any large DCC app. Andy Jones once noted that Softimage is the closest thing there is to a pipeline in a box, and it's a shame that AD doesn't play up that strength. It would allow both marketing and development to focus on differentiating Softimage from Max and Maya without fear of cannibalizing their user bases. As a public company, AD is no doubt wary of making forward-looking statements, so I'm sure that some people there and on this list know more than they can share with us. The optimistic side of me (yes, there is one!) takes some comfort in one possible interpretation of recent movements within AD: the shuffling around of dev staff is exactly what one would expect if AD were doing what we all have wished for a long time. It's plausible that they are finally taking the plunge to build a new best-of-breed 3D environment (cloud-based or not -- that's really irrelevant and becoming more so each day). They have 3 apps, and regardless of our opinions of which is better, each has developed a brand image. Max's is entry-level, light-duty, and ubiquitous. Maya's is industrial-strength, industry-standard, pro-grade. Softimage's has evolved, like it or not, to be a secret weapon, high-performance, insider's favorite. Given those three, and the fact that no one would want AD to start selling a *fourth* complete-solution 3D package under a new brand, which would you pick as the brand you will use for a next-gen product? It's obviously Maya. So I hope that putting Soft in Cory's basket, and adding the Soft dev team to Maya's means that we can look forward to a new set of tools with Maya's market force and Soft's design workflow brought together. Hopefully without Mental Ray, unless they can significantly change how it's (not) integrated or supported properly in any product... etm
Re: In case you missed it..
Softimage is without-a-doubt the best choice for small shops and freelancers (out of the 3 products Autodesk offers). Could it be that nobody is left who really knows what Softimage has/can do? So... Maurice, if you're still reading, maybe you can consider some of this? Softimage comes with Softimage Illusion, also known as the FXTree. It's a fully featured, node-based compositor that's built right into the app. See: http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/xsidocs/compositing_intro_AboutXSIIllusion.htm FaceRobot, a $100,000 facial animation system comes included with Softimage! See: http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/index.php/Category:FaceRobot CrowdFX - crowd simulations. Why invest in Massive? See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Toyh0_doko Lagoa Multiphysics - https://vimeo.com/13457383 Syflex cloth - ICE version! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxtdAvvo0KU The Softimage Animation Mixer - a non-linear animation editor: http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/xsidocs/animmixer1.htm Then there are all the included animation rigs rigging guides that automatically build a functional, well made rig for you. Anyone else care to add? -PG
Re: In case you missed it..
Matt essentially nailed it on the head. It boils down to actions speak louder than words. To me... Soft died when Ronald left. That was the sign that things were going south internally. It's been downhill ever since. -- Gene Crucean - Emmy winning - Oscar nominated VFX Supervisor / iOS-OSX Developer / Filmmaker / Photographer ** *Freelance for hire* ** www.genecrucean.com ~~ Please use my website's contact form on www.genecrucean.com for any personal emails. Thanks. I may not get them at this address. ~~
Re: In case you missed it..
did Ronald leave same time as Halfy? I miss his contributions too :( On 13 September 2012 17:51, Gene Crucean emailgeneonthel...@gmail.comwrote: Matt essentially nailed it on the head. It boils down to actions speak louder than words. To me... Soft died when Ronald left. That was the sign that things were going south internally. It's been downhill ever since. -- Gene Crucean - Emmy winning - Oscar nominated VFX Supervisor / iOS-OSX Developer / Filmmaker / Photographer ** *Freelance for hire* ** www.genecrucean.com ~~ Please use my website's contact form on www.genecrucean.com for any personal emails. Thanks. I may not get them at this address. ~~
Re: In case you missed it..
Ronald left before Halfy (which was early 2011) I think - he's been at Ubisoft for a long time now. He seemed quite happy the last time I saw him :) On 13 September 2012 12:56, Rob Chapman tekano@gmail.com wrote: did Ronald leave same time as Halfy? I miss his contributions too :( On 13 September 2012 17:51, Gene Crucean emailgeneonthel...@gmail.comwrote: Matt essentially nailed it on the head. It boils down to actions speak louder than words. To me... Soft died when Ronald left. That was the sign that things were going south internally. It's been downhill ever since. -- Gene Crucean - Emmy winning - Oscar nominated VFX Supervisor / iOS-OSX Developer / Filmmaker / Photographer ** *Freelance for hire* ** www.genecrucean.com ~~ Please use my website's contact form on www.genecrucean.com for any personal emails. Thanks. I may not get them at this address. ~~
RE: In case you missed it..
You know, I admit we are not perfect myself included, I admit we cannot give the same amount of Marketing coverage as Softimage had pre-acquisition, and I accept that you are justified in feeling we have failed you. However I do not accept that we do not understand the products or the industry. We do. And you know, if people in Marketing did not fight for Softimage the default site for a product in the same revenue tier as Softimage is would be: http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/index?id=13581855siteID=123112 I am not going to pretend what we do for Softimage is on the same scale as 3ds max and Maya - it is not. We don't have the budgets to do that but my team works hard to give it extra love and attention. This is also true for people like Graham who is in Sales. I agree that we are a small faction within Autodesk world but we are here to try and help maurice Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Paul Griswold Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 10:17 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. I really think it's a case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing. I think the devs, support, etc., folks are all going forward full-steam ahead have a great outlook on things. I think the pr, marketing management folks still call the software Soft Image and don't seem to know what it does, who uses it, or really care much to find out. (I still, to this day, get sales calls from AD referring to it as soft image) It doesn't take much to look at this list see all the people who'd love to showcase their use of Softimage. It's a brilliant piece of software and really is the best solution AD has to offer when you compare the 3 apps as they ship, unmodified. It's a shame AD (corporate) doesn't seem to know, understand or care about that. -Paul attachment: winmail.dat
Re: In case you missed it..
Hi Maurice, I really appreciate your honesty. Most of us have invested a great deal of time and money in Softimage/XSI so we are very passionate about the software, for us it has been over 15 years. It is almost like a marriage and religion, it is not easy just to walk away from it and we definition don't want it to be rip apart and put our to pasture like like other software have been. Leoung On 9/13/2012 2:38 PM, Maurice Patel wrote: You know, I admit we are not perfect myself included, I admit we cannot give the same amount of Marketing coverage as Softimage had pre-acquisition, and I accept that you are justified in feeling we have failed you. However I do not accept that we do not understand the products or the industry. We do. And you know, if people in Marketing did not fight for Softimage the default site for a product in the same revenue tier as Softimage is would be: http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/index?id=13581855siteID=123112 I am not going to pretend what we do for Softimage is on the same scale as 3ds max and Maya - it is not. We don't have the budgets to do that but my team works hard to give it extra love and attention. This is also true for people like Graham who is in Sales. I agree that we are a small faction within Autodesk world but we are here to try and help maurice Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Paul Griswold Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 10:17 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. I really think it's a case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing. I think the devs, support, etc., folks are all going forward full-steam ahead have a great outlook on things. I think the pr, marketing management folks still call the software Soft Image and don't seem to know what it does, who uses it, or really care much to find out. (I still, to this day, get sales calls from AD referring to it as soft image) It doesn't take much to look at this list see all the people who'd love to showcase their use of Softimage. It's a brilliant piece of software and really is the best solution AD has to offer when you compare the 3 apps as they ship, unmodified. It's a shame AD (corporate) doesn't seem to know, understand or care about that. -Paul
RE: In case you missed it..
Still reading, and the discussion has been stimulating as we start planning for next year's activities (can't say more rev accounting at all that) maurice Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Paul Griswold Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 12:25 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. Softimage is without-a-doubt the best choice for small shops and freelancers (out of the 3 products Autodesk offers). Could it be that nobody is left who really knows what Softimage has/can do? So... Maurice, if you're still reading, maybe you can consider some of this? Softimage comes with Softimage Illusion, also known as the FXTree. It's a fully featured, node-based compositor that's built right into the app. See: http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/xsidocs/compositing_intro_AboutXSIIllusion.htm FaceRobot, a $100,000 facial animation system comes included with Softimage! See: http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/index.php/Category:FaceRobot CrowdFX - crowd simulations. Why invest in Massive? See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Toyh0_doko Lagoa Multiphysics - https://vimeo.com/13457383 Syflex cloth - ICE version! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxtdAvvo0KU The Softimage Animation Mixer - a non-linear animation editor: http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/xsidocs/animmixer1.htm Then there are all the included animation rigs rigging guides that automatically build a functional, well made rig for you. Anyone else care to add? -PG attachment: winmail.dat
Re: In case you missed it..
That's great to hear! I'd have to agree, SI is a fantastic and very complete solution for small to mid size shops. Hopefully, there is some targeted advertising in this area. On 9/13/2012 1:39 PM, Maurice Patel wrote: Still reading, and the discussion has been stimulating as we start planning for next year's activities (can't say more rev accounting at all that) maurice Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Paul Griswold Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 12:25 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. Softimage is without-a-doubt the best choice for small shops and freelancers (out of the 3 products Autodesk offers). Could it be that nobody is left who really knows what Softimage has/can do? So... Maurice, if you're still reading, maybe you can consider some of this? Softimage comes with Softimage Illusion, also known as the FXTree. It's a fully featured, node-based compositor that's built right into the app. See: http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/xsidocs/compositing_intro_AboutXSIIllusion.htm FaceRobot, a $100,000 facial animation system comes included with Softimage! See: http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/index.php/Category:FaceRobot CrowdFX - crowd simulations. Why invest in Massive? See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Toyh0_doko Lagoa Multiphysics - https://vimeo.com/13457383 Syflex cloth - ICE version! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxtdAvvo0KU The Softimage Animation Mixer - a non-linear animation editor: http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/xsidocs/animmixer1.htm Then there are all the included animation rigs rigging guides that automatically build a functional, well made rig for you. Anyone else care to add? -PG -- _ Len Krenzler - Creative Control Media Productions Phone: 780.463.3126 www.creativecontrol.ca - l...@creativecontrol.ca
RE: In case you missed it..
One area I would like to get feedback on is how do we get the right things happening on facebook? Advertising is way beyond our budgets in general and not very effective unless we have a very specific call to action (e.g. upgrades), as a result most advertsing is driven by sales promos. However I actually think there are better and more viral ways of getting the word out. Recently we have been having more success with SM. We have had a lot of success with our Softimage page (now at over 20,000) as well as the Digital Media page http://www.facebook.com/AutodeskDigitalMedia , which for the reasons described here, is becoming a bit of a second Softimage home. Maurice Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 -Original Message- From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Len Krenzler Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 3:49 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. That's great to hear! I'd have to agree, SI is a fantastic and very complete solution for small to mid size shops. Hopefully, there is some targeted advertising in this area. On 9/13/2012 1:39 PM, Maurice Patel wrote: Still reading, and the discussion has been stimulating as we start planning for next year's activities (can't say more rev accounting at all that) maurice Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Paul Griswold Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 12:25 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. Softimage is without-a-doubt the best choice for small shops and freelancers (out of the 3 products Autodesk offers). Could it be that nobody is left who really knows what Softimage has/can do? So... Maurice, if you're still reading, maybe you can consider some of this? Softimage comes with Softimage Illusion, also known as the FXTree. It's a fully featured, node-based compositor that's built right into the app. See: http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/xsidocs/compositing_intro_AboutXSI Illusion.htm FaceRobot, a $100,000 facial animation system comes included with Softimage! See: http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/index.php/Category:FaceRobot CrowdFX - crowd simulations. Why invest in Massive? See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Toyh0_doko Lagoa Multiphysics - https://vimeo.com/13457383 Syflex cloth - ICE version! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxtdAvvo0KU The Softimage Animation Mixer - a non-linear animation editor: http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/xsidocs/animmixer1.htm Then there are all the included animation rigs rigging guides that automatically build a functional, well made rig for you. Anyone else care to add? -PG -- _ Len Krenzler - Creative Control Media Productions Phone: 780.463.3126 www.creativecontrol.ca - l...@creativecontrol.ca attachment: winmail.dat
Re: In case you missed it..
Lagoa and EM Polygonizer are great examples of getting the word out. Their demo videos went viral within our industry, but also wound up finding their way onto non-industry sites that like to post cool videos. Heck, even a political blog I read posted the Lagoa video from way back when, which was a nice surprise. There is a plethora of cool ICE stuff out there to be found and edited, and getting permission from the owners might not be so tough. -B On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 3:26 PM, Maurice Patel maurice.pa...@autodesk.comwrote: One area I would like to get feedback on is how do we get the right things happening on facebook? Advertising is way beyond our budgets in general and not very effective unless we have a very specific call to action (e.g. upgrades), as a result most advertsing is driven by sales promos. However I actually think there are better and more viral ways of getting the word out. Recently we have been having more success with SM. We have had a lot of success with our Softimage page (now at over 20,000) as well as the Digital Media page http://www.facebook.com/AutodeskDigitalMedia , which for the reasons described here, is becoming a bit of a second Softimage home. Maurice Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 -Original Message- From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Len Krenzler Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 3:49 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. That's great to hear! I'd have to agree, SI is a fantastic and very complete solution for small to mid size shops. Hopefully, there is some targeted advertising in this area. On 9/13/2012 1:39 PM, Maurice Patel wrote: Still reading, and the discussion has been stimulating as we start planning for next year's activities (can't say more rev accounting at all that) maurice Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Paul Griswold Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 12:25 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. Softimage is without-a-doubt the best choice for small shops and freelancers (out of the 3 products Autodesk offers). Could it be that nobody is left who really knows what Softimage has/can do? So... Maurice, if you're still reading, maybe you can consider some of this? Softimage comes with Softimage Illusion, also known as the FXTree. It's a fully featured, node-based compositor that's built right into the app. See: http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/xsidocs/compositing_intro_AboutXSI Illusion.htm FaceRobot, a $100,000 facial animation system comes included with Softimage! See: http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/index.php/Category:FaceRobot CrowdFX - crowd simulations. Why invest in Massive? See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Toyh0_doko Lagoa Multiphysics - https://vimeo.com/13457383 Syflex cloth - ICE version! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxtdAvvo0KU The Softimage Animation Mixer - a non-linear animation editor: http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/xsidocs/animmixer1.htm Then there are all the included animation rigs rigging guides that automatically build a functional, well made rig for you. Anyone else care to add? -PG -- _ Len Krenzler - Creative Control Media Productions Phone: 780.463.3126 www.creativecontrol.ca - l...@creativecontrol.ca
Re: In case you missed it..
exactly, simple things like just including softimage. On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Matt Lind ml...@carbinestudios.com wrote: I think more effective marketing campaigns could be achieved without spending any money.
Re: In case you missed it..
There are superb examples scattered all over. The problem is, they're scattered all over. Perhaps we should start a thread for Maurice featuring the best of the best so he has something to easily pick from. I always think of this one http://www.subaru-global.com/news2011n001100.html as one of the most memorable. On 9/13/2012 2:39 PM, john clausing wrote: posting cool spots, movies, etc. that were made with the software. i really think the MOST important way to build Softimage is getting students using it..full stop :) *From:* Maurice Patel maurice.pa...@autodesk.com *To:* softimage@listproc.autodesk.com softimage@listproc.autodesk.com *Sent:* Thursday, September 13, 2012 4:26 PM *Subject:* RE: In case you missed it.. One area I would like to get feedback on is how do we get the right things happening on facebook? Advertising is way beyond our budgets in general and not very effective unless we have a very specific call to action (e.g. upgrades), as a result most advertsing is driven by sales promos. However I actually think there are better and more viral ways of getting the word out. Recently we have been having more success with SM. We have had a lot of success with our Softimage page (now at over 20,000) as well as the Digital Media page http://www.facebook.com/AutodeskDigitalMedia , which for the reasons described here, is becoming a bit of a second Softimage home. Maurice Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 -Original Message- From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Len Krenzler Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 3:49 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. That's great to hear! I'd have to agree, SI is a fantastic and very complete solution for small to mid size shops. Hopefully, there is some targeted advertising in this area. On 9/13/2012 1:39 PM, Maurice Patel wrote: Still reading, and the discussion has been stimulating as we start planning for next year's activities (can't say more rev accounting at all that) maurice Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Paul Griswold Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 12:25 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. Softimage is without-a-doubt the best choice for small shops and freelancers (out of the 3 products Autodesk offers). Could it be that nobody is left who really knows what Softimage has/can do? So... Maurice, if you're still reading, maybe you can consider some of this? Softimage comes with Softimage Illusion, also known as the FXTree. It's a fully featured, node-based compositor that's built right into the app. See: http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/xsidocs/compositing_intro_AboutXSI Illusion.htm FaceRobot, a $100,000 facial animation system comes included with Softimage! See: http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/index.php/Category:FaceRobot CrowdFX - crowd simulations. Why invest in Massive? See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Toyh0_doko Lagoa Multiphysics - https://vimeo.com/13457383 Syflex cloth - ICE version! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxtdAvvo0KU The Softimage Animation Mixer - a non-linear animation editor: http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/xsidocs/animmixer1.htm Then there are all the included animation rigs rigging guides that automatically build a functional, well made rig for you. Anyone else care to add? -PG -- _ Len Krenzler - Creative Control Media Productions Phone: 780.463.3126 www.creativecontrol.ca http://www.creativecontrol.ca/ - l...@creativecontrol.ca mailto:l...@creativecontrol.ca -- _ Len Krenzler - Creative Control Media Productions Phone: 780.463.3126 www.creativecontrol.ca - l...@creativecontrol.ca
Re: In case you missed it..
as a guy who brings on multiple interns every summer and hires some upon graduation, i can assure you that your incorrect. they have a shot at a job with me? often they are Maya guys..who transition at my shop to Softimage. my only regret is that the schools .dont give em a head start to get a job here. there are multiple shops here in NYC that do the same. so you can give up if you want to Matt, but dont tell me kids cant get a job in Softimage, in NYC. From: Matt Lind ml...@carbinestudios.com To: john clausing jclausin...@yahoo.com; softimage@listproc.autodesk.com softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 4:54 PM Subject: RE: In case you missed it.. We’ve already had that discussion. Students only use what will provide the best opportunity for employment upon graduation. They’ll only use other stuff if forced by curriculum or if they have an elective to burn. Universities stock whatever they can get cheap, but promote/teach what gets their students recognition and placement tin the workforce. Many of these decisions are decided by the adjunct staff as they are the ones teaching the software. They often recommend what they use in the day jobs. The only way to expand a product’s viability is to increase it’s market share in the studio ranks. To do that requires the product be completed so it can compete for that market share. The issue with softimage is they implement great ideas, but often don’t finish them, or finish them so quickly there are a ton of bugs. While the developers are very aggressive in fixing bugs, the customer doesn’t see that until the next release which is long after the impression is made. In some cases it’s a game of whack-a-mole as new bugs pop up in different areas creating a perpetual cycle. Finish the product to give it real life marketing team can take that life and give it voice. As studios hear the voice, sales increase creating a wave Freelancers and outsources catch the wave and ride it passing the word onto the street Universities catch the word on the street from the studios and put the ideas into the air Students inherit ideas from thin air via osmosis to become the next generation of user. From:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of john clausing Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 1:40 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. posting cool spots, movies, etc. that were made with the software. i really think the MOST important way to build Softimage is getting students using it..full stop :) From:Maurice Patel maurice.pa...@autodesk.com To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 4:26 PM Subject: RE: In case you missed it.. One area I would like to get feedback on is how do we get the right things happening on facebook? Advertising is way beyond our budgets in general and not very effective unless we have a very specific call to action (e.g. upgrades), as a result most advertsing is driven by sales promos. However I actually think there are better and more viral ways of getting the word out. Recently we have been having more success with SM. We have had a lot of success with our Softimage page (now at over 20,000) as well as the Digital Media page http://www.facebook.com/AutodeskDigitalMedia , which for the reasons described here, is becoming a bit of a second Softimage home. Maurice Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 -Original Message- From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Len Krenzler Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 3:49 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. That's great to hear! I'd have to agree, SI is a fantastic and very complete solution for small to mid size shops. Hopefully, there is some targeted advertising in this area. On 9/13/2012 1:39 PM, Maurice Patel wrote: Still reading, and the discussion has been stimulating as we start planning for next year's activities (can't say more rev accounting at all that) maurice Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Paul Griswold Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 12:25 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. Softimage is without-a-doubt the best choice for small shops and freelancers (out of the 3 products Autodesk offers). Could it be that nobody is left who really knows what Softimage has/can do? So... Maurice, if you're still reading, maybe you can consider some of this? Softimage comes with Softimage Illusion, also known as the FXTree. It's a fully featured, node-based
Re: In case you missed it..
Here's one: Keep an eye out on the Vimeo ICE channel for awesome videos and link to them if they are particularly impressive: https://vimeo.com/groups/ice Be all like check out this great commercial done with Softimage or Wow, that's a nice ICE effect that blabla did for this short film here. Easy! :) You can give it 5-10 minutes to check once a week and make everyone a little happier. On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 4:26 PM, Maurice Patel maurice.pa...@autodesk.comwrote: One area I would like to get feedback on is how do we get the right things happening on facebook? Advertising is way beyond our budgets in general and not very effective unless we have a very specific call to action (e.g. upgrades), as a result most advertsing is driven by sales promos. However I actually think there are better and more viral ways of getting the word out. Recently we have been having more success with SM. We have had a lot of success with our Softimage page (now at over 20,000) as well as the Digital Media page http://www.facebook.com/AutodeskDigitalMedia , which for the reasons described here, is becoming a bit of a second Softimage home. Maurice Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 -Original Message- From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Len Krenzler Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 3:49 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. That's great to hear! I'd have to agree, SI is a fantastic and very complete solution for small to mid size shops. Hopefully, there is some targeted advertising in this area. On 9/13/2012 1:39 PM, Maurice Patel wrote: Still reading, and the discussion has been stimulating as we start planning for next year's activities (can't say more rev accounting at all that) maurice Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Paul Griswold Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 12:25 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. Softimage is without-a-doubt the best choice for small shops and freelancers (out of the 3 products Autodesk offers). Could it be that nobody is left who really knows what Softimage has/can do? So... Maurice, if you're still reading, maybe you can consider some of this? Softimage comes with Softimage Illusion, also known as the FXTree. It's a fully featured, node-based compositor that's built right into the app. See: http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/xsidocs/compositing_intro_AboutXSI Illusion.htm FaceRobot, a $100,000 facial animation system comes included with Softimage! See: http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/index.php/Category:FaceRobot CrowdFX - crowd simulations. Why invest in Massive? See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Toyh0_doko Lagoa Multiphysics - https://vimeo.com/13457383 Syflex cloth - ICE version! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxtdAvvo0KU The Softimage Animation Mixer - a non-linear animation editor: http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/xsidocs/animmixer1.htm Then there are all the included animation rigs rigging guides that automatically build a functional, well made rig for you. Anyone else care to add? -PG -- _ Len Krenzler - Creative Control Media Productions Phone: 780.463.3126 www.creativecontrol.ca - l...@creativecontrol.ca
Re: In case you missed it..
Started a thread here: http://www.si-community.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=36t=2739p=22739#p22739 for collecting the best ever samples. Hopefully there will be lots to pick from shortly so it won't take much of your time to post away... On 9/13/2012 2:26 PM, Maurice Patel wrote: One area I would like to get feedback on is how do we get the right things happening on facebook? Advertising is way beyond our budgets in general and not very effective unless we have a very specific call to action (e.g. upgrades), as a result most advertsing is driven by sales promos. However I actually think there are better and more viral ways of getting the word out. Recently we have been having more success with SM. We have had a lot of success with our Softimage page (now at over 20,000) as well as the Digital Media page http://www.facebook.com/AutodeskDigitalMedia , which for the reasons described here, is becoming a bit of a second Softimage home. Maurice Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 -Original Message- From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Len Krenzler Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 3:49 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. That's great to hear! I'd have to agree, SI is a fantastic and very complete solution for small to mid size shops. Hopefully, there is some targeted advertising in this area. On 9/13/2012 1:39 PM, Maurice Patel wrote: Still reading, and the discussion has been stimulating as we start planning for next year's activities (can't say more rev accounting at all that) maurice Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Paul Griswold Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 12:25 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. Softimage is without-a-doubt the best choice for small shops and freelancers (out of the 3 products Autodesk offers). Could it be that nobody is left who really knows what Softimage has/can do? So... Maurice, if you're still reading, maybe you can consider some of this? Softimage comes with Softimage Illusion, also known as the FXTree. It's a fully featured, node-based compositor that's built right into the app. See: http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/xsidocs/compositing_intro_AboutXSI Illusion.htm FaceRobot, a $100,000 facial animation system comes included with Softimage! See: http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/index.php/Category:FaceRobot CrowdFX - crowd simulations. Why invest in Massive? See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Toyh0_doko Lagoa Multiphysics - https://vimeo.com/13457383 Syflex cloth - ICE version! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxtdAvvo0KU The Softimage Animation Mixer - a non-linear animation editor: http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/xsidocs/animmixer1.htm Then there are all the included animation rigs rigging guides that automatically build a functional, well made rig for you. Anyone else care to add? -PG -- _ Len Krenzler - Creative Control Media Productions Phone: 780.463.3126 www.creativecontrol.ca - l...@creativecontrol.ca -- _ Len Krenzler - Creative Control Media Productions Phone: 780.463.3126 www.creativecontrol.ca - l...@creativecontrol.ca
Re: In case you missed it..
Least important, but cost-free: ask for putting Softimage in that bloody autodesk start page menu alongside max and Maya! (...whatever) Am 13.09.2012 22:49, schrieb Steven Caron: exactly, simple things like just including softimage. On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Matt Lind ml...@carbinestudios.com mailto:ml...@carbinestudios.com wrote: I think more effective marketing campaigns could be achieved without spending any money.
RE: In case you missed it..
Facebook? ok but I am speaking in general. I see Softimage as being portrayed, inaccurately, incompletely and inefficiently in regards to the positioning it is getting in the general sales and marketing arenas. The recent suggestions are a great way to show what Softimage actually is however it needs better positioning. Thank you for listening. Scott Lange
Re: In case you missed it..
I often post animation or FX that I find to be particularly interesting. I have friends who work in many different fields, many of them creative, and that includes Ad Agency account people, Art and Creative Directors, most of whom at one time or another I have gently guided them through some uber-geek 3D topics about what I do or how certain things are done. I still occasionally get the glazed over look when it goes too far, but in general, most of them now know about SoftImage. Agency folks are particularly sensitive to branding, so if it's made obvious enough, they will remember it. So perhaps a daily or weekly SoftImage Eye Candy of the Week fan page? A Vimeo account is cheap, the video compression quality beats Youtube by a mile, and it's easy to set up gallery pages and portfolios, you could even slap an AD SoftImage bug in one of the corners. People see what you like and comment on in your feed or share it, and in general what we do is pretty entertaining stuff so you can get thousands of people looking at your content. It's more or less free exposure, and it gets people's attention. I have a good friend who works for the PR firm Edelman in NYC, they have a whole department dedicated to managing their client's social media presence, and it's a fast growing part of their business. I don't know how you quantify it's effectiveness, but it certainly doesn't hurt to have people more aware of your products. Eric On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 4:26 PM, Maurice Patel maurice.pa...@autodesk.comwrote: One area I would like to get feedback on is how do we get the right things happening on facebook? Advertising is way beyond our budgets in general and not very effective unless we have a very specific call to action (e.g. upgrades), as a result most advertsing is driven by sales promos. However I actually think there are better and more viral ways of getting the word out. Recently we have been having more success with SM. We have had a lot of success with our Softimage page (now at over 20,000) as well as the Digital Media page http://www.facebook.com/AutodeskDigitalMedia , which for the reasons described here, is becoming a bit of a second Softimage home. Maurice Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 -Original Message- From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Len Krenzler Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 3:49 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. That's great to hear! I'd have to agree, SI is a fantastic and very complete solution for small to mid size shops. Hopefully, there is some targeted advertising in this area. On 9/13/2012 1:39 PM, Maurice Patel wrote: Still reading, and the discussion has been stimulating as we start planning for next year's activities (can't say more rev accounting at all that) maurice Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Paul Griswold Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 12:25 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. Softimage is without-a-doubt the best choice for small shops and freelancers (out of the 3 products Autodesk offers). Could it be that nobody is left who really knows what Softimage has/can do? So... Maurice, if you're still reading, maybe you can consider some of this? Softimage comes with Softimage Illusion, also known as the FXTree. It's a fully featured, node-based compositor that's built right into the app. See: http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/xsidocs/compositing_intro_AboutXSI Illusion.htm FaceRobot, a $100,000 facial animation system comes included with Softimage! See: http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/index.php/Category:FaceRobot CrowdFX - crowd simulations. Why invest in Massive? See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Toyh0_doko Lagoa Multiphysics - https://vimeo.com/13457383 Syflex cloth - ICE version! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxtdAvvo0KU The Softimage Animation Mixer - a non-linear animation editor: http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/xsidocs/animmixer1.htm Then there are all the included animation rigs rigging guides that automatically build a functional, well made rig for you. Anyone else care to add? -PG -- _ Len Krenzler - Creative Control Media Productions Phone: 780.463.3126 www.creativecontrol.ca - l...@creativecontrol.ca -- Freelance 3D and VFX animator
RE: In case you missed it..
I need to think about this one. It's a real problem. We don't even have resources to do that for Flame which is one of our top revenue products - and I get beat up about that too. Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Muhamad Faizol Abd. Halim Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 5:51 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. centralized up to date tutorial. Make it a big one stop centre for a beginner. That's the only way to help those who are about to learn Softimage. There are many websites and youtube channels that do this too, but it's on a whole new level if this is done and administered by Autodesk. Also many top notch tutorials (like the ones on vimeo, for example) can be nominated by the users and be included in the list and linked to by the site. Of course the success stories with good visual coverage would be extremely helpful too. On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 4:26 AM, Maurice Patel maurice.pa...@autodesk.commailto:maurice.pa...@autodesk.com wrote: One area I would like to get feedback on is how do we get the right things happening on facebook? Advertising is way beyond our budgets in general and not very effective unless we have a very specific call to action (e.g. upgrades), as a result most advertsing is driven by sales promos. However I actually think there are better and more viral ways of getting the word out. Recently we have been having more success with SM. We have had a lot of success with our Softimage page (now at over 20,000) as well as the Digital Media page http://www.facebook.com/AutodeskDigitalMedia , which for the reasons described here, is becoming a bit of a second Softimage home. Maurice Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134tel:514%20954-7134 attachment: winmail.dat
RE: In case you missed it..
Thnaks will do Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Alan Fregtman Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 5:04 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. Here's one: Keep an eye out on the Vimeo ICE channel for awesome videos and link to them if they are particularly impressive: https://vimeo.com/groups/ice Be all like check out this great commercial done with Softimage or Wow, that's a nice ICE effect that blabla did for this short film here. Easy! :) You can give it 5-10 minutes to check once a week and make everyone a little happier. On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 4:26 PM, Maurice Patel maurice.pa...@autodesk.commailto:maurice.pa...@autodesk.com wrote: One area I would like to get feedback on is how do we get the right things happening on facebook? Advertising is way beyond our budgets in general and not very effective unless we have a very specific call to action (e.g. upgrades), as a result most advertsing is driven by sales promos. However I actually think there are better and more viral ways of getting the word out. Recently we have been having more success with SM. We have had a lot of success with our Softimage page (now at over 20,000) as well as the Digital Media page http://www.facebook.com/AutodeskDigitalMedia , which for the reasons described here, is becoming a bit of a second Softimage home. Maurice Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134tel:514%20954-7134 -Original Message- From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Len Krenzler Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 3:49 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. That's great to hear! I'd have to agree, SI is a fantastic and very complete solution for small to mid size shops. Hopefully, there is some targeted advertising in this area. On 9/13/2012 1:39 PM, Maurice Patel wrote: Still reading, and the discussion has been stimulating as we start planning for next year's activities (can't say more rev accounting at all that) maurice Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134tel:514%20954-7134 From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Paul Griswold Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 12:25 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. Softimage is without-a-doubt the best choice for small shops and freelancers (out of the 3 products Autodesk offers). Could it be that nobody is left who really knows what Softimage has/can do? So... Maurice, if you're still reading, maybe you can consider some of this? Softimage comes with Softimage Illusion, also known as the FXTree. It's a fully featured, node-based compositor that's built right into the app. See: http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/xsidocs/compositing_intro_AboutXSI Illusion.htm FaceRobot, a $100,000 facial animation system comes included with Softimage! See: http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/index.php/Category:FaceRobot CrowdFX - crowd simulations. Why invest in Massive? See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Toyh0_doko Lagoa Multiphysics - https://vimeo.com/13457383 Syflex cloth - ICE version! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxtdAvvo0KU The Softimage Animation Mixer - a non-linear animation editor: http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/xsidocs/animmixer1.htm Then there are all the included animation rigs rigging guides that automatically build a functional, well made rig for you. Anyone else care to add? -PG -- _ Len Krenzler - Creative Control Media Productions Phone: 780.463.3126tel:780.463.3126 www.creativecontrol.cahttp://www.creativecontrol.ca - l...@creativecontrol.camailto:l...@creativecontrol.ca attachment: winmail.dat
RE: In case you missed it..
Unfortunately, like I said unless you are in the top revenue generating products that is not going to happen and it has nothing to do with Softimage, there are dozens of products that would vie to be on the list and so the rules are strict. I cannot even get Flame or Smoke on the list. This is why we created our facebook sites and a product section on AREA at least we can have more freedom there. http://www.the-area.com/products/view/softimage. We are always looking for ways to beef these up and help from the community would be great. If we disperse our efforts it just makes it hard to find anything. I would love for this to become the new home maurice Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Eugen Sares Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 5:14 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. Least important, but cost-free: ask for putting Softimage in that bloody autodesk start page menu alongside max and Maya! (...whatever) Am 13.09.2012 22:49, schrieb Steven Caron: exactly, simple things like just including softimage. On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Matt Lind ml...@carbinestudios.commailto:ml...@carbinestudios.com wrote: I think more effective marketing campaigns could be achieved without spending any money. attachment: winmail.dat
RE: In case you missed it..
I'd just like to point out that Stephen wasn't fired, he was unfortunately among the layoffs. I know it's being pedantic, but let's keep to the facts. From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Sam Cuttriss Sent: 13 September 2012 22:50 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. Stop thinking of advertising/ demonstration/ documentation and education as isolated entities. in doing so you can make the money you spend massively more productive. look at the success of stephen blairs blog: http://xsisupport.com/ ( Its criminally insane you fired him by the way ) its a go to site for anyone using ice. With a little work something like that could be dressed up as a showcase of softimage work and a technical reference of production techniques. An inspiration to students, and something to pique the curiosity of professionals using other softwares. _sam attachment: winmail.dat
RE: In case you missed it..
I agree. I don't know about anybody else, but I could care less about demo reels. The only time I see them is when I'm at a user group or waiting for a product demonstration to begin, and since there are no more user groups and product demos are basically web downloads, where do I see demos today? Mostly as screen savers at siggraph when the demo guy is taking a lunch break. I don't hang around those booths because I visit booths to talk to people and ask questions. Demo reels are important for students and people new to the industry as a whole, but I think they're irrelevant for people who have been in the industry a while because they become jaded like me from having seen it all before. We need something more that currently isn't being delivered. As a more experienced and mature demographic, what I want is information. I want to see benefit in black and white. I want to determine if I can truly work smarter, not harder, compared to what I'm doing now. I think this aspect of Softimage marketing has been absent for the past 10 years. The exception being the debut of ICE with v7.0. Prior to that the last time I saw something informative that made me pay attention was the animation mixer and perhaps GATOR. However, even in those cases the demos weren't very informative, they were more eye candy pieces. What I seek is a short synopsis like a movie trailer (length) that is information driven. If it catches my interest, let me watch something more in-depth to get the answers to my questions. These don't have to be high-tech demonstrations, just clearly *informative and comprehensive* relative to what's being marketed. Stay way from glossy buzz words and trendy catch phrases. Focus more on the information's value to educate the target audience. I used to demo Softimage in my locale when Softimage didn't have the budget to send somebody out from Montreal. I am information driven, and was always told by attendees that they felt my demos were the most helpful to make decisions. I don't know if sales improved or not as I didn't have access to that information, but the feedback I received from all demos were pretty consistent. I think people are starved for facts as they don't want to have to wade through all the BS to get the info they seek, and in many cases, some people are making decisions to expand a company or switch a pipeline and aren't fully informed themselves what they are looking for because perhaps they're striving for something a bit outside of their comfort zone or level of experience. Informative demos help them, and a good informative demo will entice a customer to follow up. Matt From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Sam Cuttriss Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 2:50 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. Stop thinking of advertising/ demonstration/ documentation and education as isolated entities. in doing so you can make the money you spend massively more productive. look at the success of stephen blairs blog: http://xsisupport.com/ ( Its criminally insane you fired him by the way ) its a go to site for anyone using ice. With a little work something like that could be dressed up as a showcase of softimage work and a technical reference of production techniques. An inspiration to students, and something to pique the curiosity of professionals using other softwares. _sam
RE: In case you missed it..
Hi Matt, You are spot on when it comes to the importance of relevant information. Last year I specifically worked with the AREA Team on this issue. We had a challenge that unless you are a top revenue product you disappear on .com and there was no one place that was really good to send people for more detailed information. We decided to create a section on AREA where we could do that - a richer product home so to speak. One that could be fuelled not only by us but by the community too. We still need to tie the Social Media aspect into it and are working on things like social sign on. But yes ultimately it would be great if we can continue to refine and expand on this aspect of the site. And yes you can access it from the homepage :) http://www.the-area.com/products/view/softimage Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Matt Lind Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 6:26 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: RE: In case you missed it.. I agree. I don't know about anybody else, but I could care less about demo reels. The only time I see them is when I'm at a user group or waiting for a product demonstration to begin, and since there are no more user groups and product demos are basically web downloads, where do I see demos today? Mostly as screen savers at siggraph when the demo guy is taking a lunch break. I don't hang around those booths because I visit booths to talk to people and ask questions. Demo reels are important for students and people new to the industry as a whole, but I think they're irrelevant for people who have been in the industry a while because they become jaded like me from having seen it all before. We need something more that currently isn't being delivered. As a more experienced and mature demographic, what I want is information. I want to see benefit in black and white. I want to determine if I can truly work smarter, not harder, compared to what I'm doing now. I think this aspect of Softimage marketing has been absent for the past 10 years. The exception being the debut of ICE with v7.0. Prior to that the last time I saw something informative that made me pay attention was the animation mixer and perhaps GATOR. However, even in those cases the demos weren't very informative, they were more eye candy pieces. What I seek is a short synopsis like a movie trailer (length) that is information driven. If it catches my interest, let me watch something more in-depth to get the answers to my questions. These don't have to be high-tech demonstrations, just clearly *informative and comprehensive* relative to what's being marketed. Stay way from glossy buzz words and trendy catch phrases. Focus more on the information's value to educate the target audience. I used to demo Softimage in my locale when Softimage didn't have the budget to send somebody out from Montreal. I am information driven, and was always told by attendees that they felt my demos were the most helpful to make decisions. I don't know if sales improved or not as I didn't have access to that information, but the feedback I received from all demos were pretty consistent. I think people are starved for facts as they don't want to have to wade through all the BS to get the info they seek, and in many cases, some people are making decisions to expand a company or switch a pipeline and aren't fully informed themselves what they are looking for because perhaps they're striving for something a bit outside of their comfort zone or level of experience. Informative demos help them, and a good informative demo will entice a customer to follow up. Matt From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Sam Cuttriss Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 2:50 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. Stop thinking of advertising/ demonstration/ documentation and education as isolated entities. in doing so you can make the money you spend massively more productive. look at the success of stephen blairs blog: http://xsisupport.com/ ( Its criminally insane you fired him by the way ) its a go to site for anyone using ice. With a little work something like that could be dressed up as a showcase of softimage work and a technical reference of production techniques. An inspiration to students, and something to pique the curiosity of professionals using other softwares. _sam attachment: winmail.dat
Re: In case you missed it..
Absolutely any student can go to the education portal and download it for free for 3 years. And the product we sell to education institutions is this one: http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112id=13395078 It is true that the fact that students can access any Autodesk product for free for 3 years is only just starting to get out there Sent from my iPad On 2012-09-13, at 7:00 PM, Tim Leydecker bauero...@gmx.demailto:bauero...@gmx.de wrote: Hi Maurice, isn´t Softimage available as part of those affordable student license packages? Afaik, it´s pretty easy nowadays to get legal access to Autodesk software for education if you´re a student but I´m not sure everybody actually knows how easy it is to get at that? At least for a student, the times are better than they where 10 years ago. For me myself, I am glad to soon have Houdini (up to 1920px) and Blender at my fingertips for those bits of smoke I need or can arse myself into doing actually but I don´t expect AD to clone SideFX´s learning/access model any time soon, even if I now have decided to skip my subscription beyond 2012 releases and to wait for an all inclusive suite package update promo to get back up to date next year when I can better say what I´ll actually need and bring may Maya/Max/Softimage/Mudbox/Motionbuilder pack back into 2013, along with a nice render engine or two maybe... --- In terms of suites in general, I was very happy to get a Max/Softimage bundle including Mudbox and Motionbuilder. That gave me the option to extend to Max, while having Maya (as well here) for my gross of income and Softimage for my personal favourite tool. Admittedly, I didn´t really use Max much in the end and am currently more or less completely loaded with getting (back) into ZBrush and all sorts of other stuff related to modeling, lighting, shading and rendering but the real bonus I´m still seing is what the suite bundle gave me access to. I could have also ended up using FumeFX and Max mostly or ICE, the options where there. You just can´t do everyting well. Personally, the suite gave me the freedom to lean to one side, even roll over and take half a year off and just do whatever I feel like getting better at doing it. Softimage is a very good base for that, regardless of the 10+ years of Maya I could show off with. --- Long story short, I am glad there´s the suites and I hope for a catch all promo but I dislike SAP benefit marketing pushing, late subscription fees or Maya/Softimage sp1/sap/sap_sp1/.. version horrors. That really, really doesn´t help stability, especially when working remote and with mixed levels of technically savy people (like producers). I like vanilla or mint condition... doesn´t need to be the latest and greatest but solid. The 2012´s did that nicely. I´ll have to wait for CrowdFX... Cheers, tim On 14.09.2012 00:25, Graham Bell wrote: I'd just like to point out that Stephen wasn't fired, he was unfortunately among the layoffs. I know it's being pedantic, but let's keep to the facts. From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Sam Cuttriss Sent: 13 September 2012 22:50 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. Stop thinking of advertising/ demonstration/ documentation and education as isolated entities. in doing so you can make the money you spend massively more productive. look at the success of stephen blairs blog: http://xsisupport.com/ ( Its criminally insane you fired him by the way ) its a go to site for anyone using ice. With a little work something like that could be dressed up as a showcase of softimage work and a technical reference of production techniques. An inspiration to students, and something to pique the curiosity of professionals using other softwares. _sam attachment: winmail.dat
Re: In case you missed it..
De愒r Mr. L惴ydec愉er (a.k.a. Tim?), Some愀ne went and re惴laced all y惻ur apos愒rop愉es with random Asi愀n te惴t symbols. Sinc惴rely, Your friendly neighborhood Grammarman. PS - Sorry about the non-愒*equitur*. On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 6:00 PM, Tim Leydecker bauero...@gmx.de wrote: Hi Maurice, isn愒 Softimage available as part of those affordable student license packages? Afaik, it愀 pretty easy nowadays to get legal access to Autodesk software for education if you愉e a student but I惴 not sure everybody actually knows how easy it is to get at that? At least for a student, the times are better than they where 10 years ago. For me myself, I am glad to soon have Houdini (up to 1920px) and Blender at my fingertips for those bits of smoke I need or can arse myself into doing actually but I don愒 expect AD to clone SideFX愀 learning/access model any time soon, even if I now have decided to skip my subscription beyond 2012 releases and to wait for an all inclusive suite package update promo to get back up to date next year when I can better say what I惻l actually need and bring may Maya/Max/Softimage/Mudbox/**Motionbuilder pack back into 2013, along with a nice render engine or two maybe... --- In terms of suites in general, I was very happy to get a Max/Softimage bundle including Mudbox and Motionbuilder. That gave me the option to extend to Max, while having Maya (as well here) for my gross of income and Softimage for my personal favourite tool. Admittedly, I didn愒 really use Max much in the end and am currently more or less completely loaded with getting (back) into ZBrush and all sorts of other stuff related to modeling, lighting, shading and rendering but the real bonus I惴 still seing is what the suite bundle gave me access to. I could have also ended up using FumeFX and Max mostly or ICE, the options where there. You just can愒 do everyting well. Personally, the suite gave me the freedom to lean to one side, even roll over and take half a year off and just do whatever I feel like getting better at doing it. Softimage is a very good base for that, regardless of the 10+ years of Maya I could show off with. --- Long story short, I am glad there愀 the suites and I hope for a catch all promo but I dislike SAP benefit marketing pushing, late subscription fees or Maya/Softimage sp1/sap/sap_sp1/.. version horrors. That really, really doesn愒 help stability, especially when working remote and with mixed levels of technically savy people (like producers). I like vanilla or mint condition... doesn愒 need to be the latest and greatest but solid. The 2012愀 did that nicely. I惻l have to wait for CrowdFX... Cheers, tim On 14.09.2012 00:25, Graham Bell wrote: I'd just like to point out that Stephen wasn't fired, he was unfortunately among the layoffs. I know it's being pedantic, but let's keep to the facts. From: softimage-bounces@listproc.**autodesk.comsoftimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com[mailto: softimage-bounces@**listproc.autodesk.comsoftimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Sam Cuttriss Sent: 13 September 2012 22:50 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.**com softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. Stop thinking of advertising/ demonstration/ documentation and education as isolated entities. in doing so you can make the money you spend massively more productive. look at the success of stephen blairs blog: http://xsisupport.com/ ( Its criminally insane you fired him by the way ) its a go to site for anyone using ice. With a little work something like that could be dressed up as a showcase of softimage work and a technical reference of production techniques. An inspiration to students, and something to pique the curiosity of professionals using other softwares. _sam
Re: In case you missed it..
As I said before, students are only part of the answer, but part none the less... It IS working and the beauty of it is that AD has to do very little, we (the pros in it) are already doing it, the recruiting, the training, etc., and it works. Some go back to Maya, but none in my experience want to. All I would like is educational licensing awareness, and AD/Softimage visibility at schools. Help put the industry together with the schools, no educational program or any of that, just help me find talented students and I'll do the rest. John Sent from my iPhone On Sep 13, 2012, at 7:12 PM, Maurice Patel maurice.pa...@autodesk.com wrote: Absolutely any student can go to the education portal and download it for free for 3 years. And the product we sell to education institutions is this one: http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112id=13395078 It is true that the fact that students can access any Autodesk product for free for 3 years is only just starting to get out there Sent from my iPad On 2012-09-13, at 7:00 PM, Tim Leydecker bauero...@gmx.demailto:bauero...@gmx.de wrote: Hi Maurice, isn´t Softimage available as part of those affordable student license packages? Afaik, it´s pretty easy nowadays to get legal access to Autodesk software for education if you´re a student but I´m not sure everybody actually knows how easy it is to get at that? At least for a student, the times are better than they where 10 years ago. For me myself, I am glad to soon have Houdini (up to 1920px) and Blender at my fingertips for those bits of smoke I need or can arse myself into doing actually but I don´t expect AD to clone SideFX´s learning/access model any time soon, even if I now have decided to skip my subscription beyond 2012 releases and to wait for an all inclusive suite package update promo to get back up to date next year when I can better say what I´ll actually need and bring may Maya/Max/Softimage/Mudbox/Motionbuilder pack back into 2013, along with a nice render engine or two maybe... --- In terms of suites in general, I was very happy to get a Max/Softimage bundle including Mudbox and Motionbuilder. That gave me the option to extend to Max, while having Maya (as well here) for my gross of income and Softimage for my personal favourite tool. Admittedly, I didn´t really use Max much in the end and am currently more or less completely loaded with getting (back) into ZBrush and all sorts of other stuff related to modeling, lighting, shading and rendering but the real bonus I´m still seing is what the suite bundle gave me access to. I could have also ended up using FumeFX and Max mostly or ICE, the options where there. You just can´t do everyting well. Personally, the suite gave me the freedom to lean to one side, even roll over and take half a year off and just do whatever I feel like getting better at doing it. Softimage is a very good base for that, regardless of the 10+ years of Maya I could show off with. --- Long story short, I am glad there´s the suites and I hope for a catch all promo but I dislike SAP benefit marketing pushing, late subscription fees or Maya/Softimage sp1/sap/sap_sp1/.. version horrors. That really, really doesn´t help stability, especially when working remote and with mixed levels of technically savy people (like producers). I like vanilla or mint condition... doesn´t need to be the latest and greatest but solid. The 2012´s did that nicely. I´ll have to wait for CrowdFX... Cheers, tim On 14.09.2012 00:25, Graham Bell wrote: I'd just like to point out that Stephen wasn't fired, he was unfortunately among the layoffs. I know it's being pedantic, but let's keep to the facts. From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Sam Cuttriss Sent: 13 September 2012 22:50 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. Stop thinking of advertising/ demonstration/ documentation and education as isolated entities. in doing so you can make the money you spend massively more productive. look at the success of stephen blairs blog: http://xsisupport.com/ ( Its criminally insane you fired him by the way ) its a go to site for anyone using ice. With a little work something like that could be dressed up as a showcase of softimage work and a technical reference of production techniques. An inspiration to students, and something to pique the curiosity of professionals using other softwares. _sam winmail.dat
Re: In case you missed it..
Sorry Brad, thanks for the heads-up. My ,/. are swapped as well... It´s time to say good-bye to this xp64 install and boot into win7. The chinese symbols came with job. It´s hard to get rid of them, once you´ve been there. I´m writting UTF-8 thought? What would you suggest? Cheers, tim On 14.09.2012 01:22, Bradley Gabe wrote: De愒r Mr. L惴ydec愉er (a.k.a. Tim?), Some愀ne went and re惴laced all y惻ur apos愒rop愉es with random Asi愀n te惴t symbols. Sinc惴rely, Your friendly neighborhood Grammarman. PS - Sorry about the non-愒/equitur/. On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 6:00 PM, Tim Leydecker bauero...@gmx.de mailto:bauero...@gmx.de wrote: Hi Maurice, isn愒 Softimage available as part of those affordable student license packages? Afaik, it愀 pretty easy nowadays to get legal access to Autodesk software for education if you愉e a student but I惴 not sure everybody actually knows how easy it is to get at that? At least for a student, the times are better than they where 10 years ago. For me myself, I am glad to soon have Houdini (up to 1920px) and Blender at my fingertips for those bits of smoke I need or can arse myself into doing actually but I don愒 expect AD to clone SideFX愀 learning/access model any time soon, even if I now have decided to skip my subscription beyond 2012 releases and to wait for an all inclusive suite package update promo to get back up to date next year when I can better say what I惻l actually need and bring may Maya/Max/Softimage/Mudbox/__Motionbuilder pack back into 2013, along with a nice render engine or two maybe... --- In terms of suites in general, I was very happy to get a Max/Softimage bundle including Mudbox and Motionbuilder. That gave me the option to extend to Max, while having Maya (as well here) for my gross of income and Softimage for my personal favourite tool. Admittedly, I didn愒 really use Max much in the end and am currently more or less completely loaded with getting (back) into ZBrush and all sorts of other stuff related to modeling, lighting, shading and rendering but the real bonus I惴 still seing is what the suite bundle gave me access to. I could have also ended up using FumeFX and Max mostly or ICE, the options where there. You just can愒 do everyting well. Personally, the suite gave me the freedom to lean to one side, even roll over and take half a year off and just do whatever I feel like getting better at doing it. Softimage is a very good base for that, regardless of the 10+ years of Maya I could show off with. --- Long story short, I am glad there愀 the suites and I hope for a catch all promo but I dislike SAP benefit marketing pushing, late subscription fees or Maya/Softimage sp1/sap/sap_sp1/.. version horrors. That really, really doesn愒 help stability, especially when working remote and with mixed levels of technically savy people (like producers). I like vanilla or mint condition... doesn愒 need to be the latest and greatest but solid. The 2012愀 did that nicely. I惻l have to wait for CrowdFX... Cheers, tim On 14.09.2012 00:25, Graham Bell wrote: I'd just like to point out that Stephen wasn't fired, he was unfortunately among the layoffs. I know it's being pedantic, but let's keep to the facts. From: softimage-bounces@listproc.__autodesk.com mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-bounces@__listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Sam Cuttriss Sent: 13 September 2012 22:50 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.__com mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. Stop thinking of advertising/ demonstration/ documentation and education as isolated entities. in doing so you can make the money you spend massively more productive. look at the success of stephen blairs blog: http://xsisupport.com/ ( Its criminally insane you fired him by the way ) its a go to site for anyone using ice. With a little work something like that could be dressed up as a showcase of softimage work and a technical reference of production techniques. An inspiration to students, and something to pique the curiosity of professionals using other softwares. _sam
RE: In case you missed it..
I should have clarified, I meant Houdini only for assembly/effects/rendering, certainly not for modelling/rigging/animation... N From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Raffaele Fragapane Sent: Friday, 14 September 2012 10:32 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. I've got to say I'm puzzled by the threats to drop AD products to move to Houdini if they were to discontinue Soft. Houdini is a great software for a number of reasons, and has a broad range of applications, not to mention probably the most open and solid approach to assets out there. I do keep eyes on it regularly, every release, and I used it in the past for more than a handful of shots. That said, do the people making these threats work on a relatively narrow type of shots? Because there is much where Houdini simply can't hold onto a market, not in terms of dialogue with the client base (which is somewhat narrowly focused for the largest part), nor in terms of features and actual turn around time for a task. Character tools in Houdini in example are daunting to put together, and performance, even when you try and squeeze every frame out of it, is simply not there. While I'd probably love the troubleshooting, asset cobbling and technical animation process in Houdini, if I was asked to turn around an animation rig in it, even without considering the sheer amount of tools and API work we layered on top of XSI or Maya, I'd have to literally triple my quotes, and would be very hard pressed finding any competent staff with some domain knowledge to take on it. We all like to say that the application isn't important, skills are portable and so on, and to an extent it's true, but the whole extent of rigging, shaving the development edges off, is largely domain knowledge of the app, and in Houdini's case even more so, because it might be transparent and intuitive for somebody approaching it from the right angle, but it's a very hard software to migrate button pushers to, and still more than a small challenge to find your way through if you come from Max, Maya or Soft. It was simply never taken far along enough the rigging and animation route by enough people for the tools to get there. Even Maya, with its current unbelievably tall stash of broken nuggets and idiosyncrasies, is a much more well rounded tool for that. The shops that tried to have it end to end have -all- tanked (of course not because of Houdini, but it does mean no single client ever pushed them consistently in those regards for longer than a year or two), and if you ask the very, very large number of people around here who had their induction to Houdini in DrD (which also tanked) for things other than FX, the majority I talked to literally said they would turn down a job rather than light a shot in Houdini again (as did anmators from CORE when we took them on for Charlotte's web years ago when I was in RSP). The few who actually enjoyed it tend to be those who had extensive troubleshooting in their responsibilities, or were more than a bit of the technical persuasion. That's the problem I have with this monopoly, and with the competing offers coming out. Like it or not there are TWO truly character and animation capable applications suitable for the mid-sized team and up, and that's Soft and Maya, and it shows that that market is cornered, because it's been stagnating for years. So, go ahead, try to pull together a functional rig and then animate it in Houdini, and let me know how it goes. I did, several times, and while I enjoyed the process, and would like to believe I have the foundations knowledge to deal with a software like H, it's a long hard walk to get things out, with many missing tools in the way. Yes, you can quickly cook up a VOP or a SOP of some description to do many of those things, but then when you're restricting the domain to such a small patch, ICE will smoke the hell out of any other app for such things anyway, so why would I want to use something other than Soft if that was my thing? And on top of that Soft piles up tool after tool and UI for skinning and deformations that, while long uncared for, are still best of breed. And it's a sad statement that Soft's skinning/weighting toolsuite is the best OOTB experience out there, because it's been practically untouched since 1.5.
Re: Email Client (was Re: In case you missed it..)
Figure out what client AD uses internally, and never use that again, at least not with those settings. No web mail client I can think of seems able to collapse any quote after it goes through their servers from hell. On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 9:34 AM, Bradley Gabe witha...@gmail.com wrote: I'm unfortunately not an expert in email clients or text formats. Only in derailing threads, general silliness, and sarcasm. I'm sure there are plenty of others on the list who can help. :-D -B
Re: In case you missed it..
I find it amazing that XSI, once considered the laughingstock of the dcc animation apps with respect to its particle system is now surviving mostly because of the strength of its particle system. And the irony of course is, ICE is not really a particle system and marketing it as such has always been shortsighted. ICE is a custom operator construction kit. Particles effects are merely one output you can get from the system. On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 7:40 PM, Nick Angus n...@altvfx.com wrote: I should have clarified, I meant Houdini only for assembly/effects/rendering, certainly not for modelling/rigging/animation… ** ** N ** ** *From:* softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] *On Behalf Of *Raffaele Fragapane *Sent:* Friday, 14 September 2012 10:32 AM *To:* softimage@listproc.autodesk.com *Subject:* Re: In case you missed it.. ** ** I've got to say I'm puzzled by the threats to drop AD products to move to Houdini if they were to discontinue Soft. Houdini is a great software for a number of reasons, and has a broad range of applications, not to mention probably the most open and solid approach to assets out there. I do keep eyes on it regularly, every release, and I used it in the past for more than a handful of shots. That said, do the people making these threats work on a relatively narrow type of shots? Because there is much where Houdini simply can't hold onto a market, not in terms of dialogue with the client base (which is somewhat narrowly focused for the largest part), nor in terms of features and actual turn around time for a task. Character tools in Houdini in example are daunting to put together, and performance, even when you try and squeeze every frame out of it, is simply not there. While I'd probably love the troubleshooting, asset cobbling and technical animation process in Houdini, if I was asked to turn around an animation rig in it, even without considering the sheer amount of tools and API work we layered on top of XSI or Maya, I'd have to literally triple my quotes, and would be very hard pressed finding any competent staff with some domain knowledge to take on it. We all like to say that the application isn't important, skills are portable and so on, and to an extent it's true, but the whole extent of rigging, shaving the development edges off, is largely domain knowledge of the app, and in Houdini's case even more so, because it might be transparent and intuitive for somebody approaching it from the right angle, but it's a very hard software to migrate button pushers to, and still more than a small challenge to find your way through if you come from Max, Maya or Soft. It was simply never taken far along enough the rigging and animation route by enough people for the tools to get there. Even Maya, with its current unbelievably tall stash of broken nuggets and idiosyncrasies, is a much more well rounded tool for that. The shops that tried to have it end to end have -all- tanked (of course not because of Houdini, but it does mean no single client ever pushed them consistently in those regards for longer than a year or two), and if you ask the very, very large number of people around here who had their induction to Houdini in DrD (which also tanked) for things other than FX, the majority I talked to literally said they would turn down a job rather than light a shot in Houdini again (as did anmators from CORE when we took them on for Charlotte's web years ago when I was in RSP). The few who actually enjoyed it tend to be those who had extensive troubleshooting in their responsibilities, or were more than a bit of the technical persuasion. That's the problem I have with this monopoly, and with the competing offers coming out. Like it or not there are TWO truly character and animation capable applications suitable for the mid-sized team and up, and that's Soft and Maya, and it shows that that market is cornered, because it's been stagnating for years. So, go ahead, try to pull together a functional rig and then animate it in Houdini, and let me know how it goes. I did, several times, and while I enjoyed the process, and would like to believe I have the foundations knowledge to deal with a software like H, it's a long hard walk to get things out, with many missing tools in the way. Yes, you can quickly cook up a VOP or a SOP of some description to do many of those things, but then when you're restricting the domain to such a small patch, ICE will smoke the hell out of any other app for such things anyway, so why would I want to use something other than Soft if that was my thing? And on top of that Soft piles up tool after tool and UI for skinning and deformations that, while long uncared for, are still best of breed. And it's a sad statement that Soft's skinning/weighting toolsuite is the best OOTB experience out there, because it's been
RE: In case you missed it..
+1000 to everyone for turning this thread into something constructive! I love you all! ...and yeah, I am two hours early for work :/ /Thomas Maurice Patel maurice.pa...@autodesk.com hat am 14. September 2012 um 00:34 geschrieben: Hi Matt, You are spot on when it comes to the importance of relevant information. Last year I specifically worked with the AREA Team on this issue. We had a challenge that unless you are a top revenue product you disappear on .com and there was no one place that was really good to send people for more detailed information. We decided to create a section on AREA where we could do that - a richer product home so to speak. One that could be fuelled not only by us but by the community too. We still need to tie the Social Media aspect into it and are working on things like social sign on. But yes ultimately it would be great if we can continue to refine and expand on this aspect of the site. And yes you can access it from the homepage :) http://www.the-area.com/products/view/softimage Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Matt Lind Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 6:26 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: RE: In case you missed it.. I agree. I don't know about anybody else, but I could care less about demo reels. The only time I see them is when I'm at a user group or waiting for a product demonstration to begin, and since there are no more user groups and product demos are basically web downloads, where do I see demos today? Mostly as screen savers at siggraph when the demo guy is taking a lunch break. I don't hang around those booths because I visit booths to talk to people and ask questions. Demo reels are important for students and people new to the industry as a whole, but I think they're irrelevant for people who have been in the industry a while because they become jaded like me from having seen it all before. We need something more that currently isn't being delivered. As a more experienced and mature demographic, what I want is information. I want to see benefit in black and white. I want to determine if I can truly work smarter, not harder, compared to what I'm doing now. I think this aspect of Softimage marketing has been absent for the past 10 years. The exception being the debut of ICE with v7.0. Prior to that the last time I saw something informative that made me pay attention was the animation mixer and perhaps GATOR. However, even in those cases the demos weren't very informative, they were more eye candy pieces. What I seek is a short synopsis like a movie trailer (length) that is information driven. If it catches my interest, let me watch something more in-depth to get the answers to my questions. These don't have to be high-tech demonstrations, just clearly *informative and comprehensive* relative to what's being marketed. Stay way from glossy buzz words and trendy catch phrases. Focus more on the information's value to educate the target audience. I used to demo Softimage in my locale when Softimage didn't have the budget to send somebody out from Montreal. I am information driven, and was always told by attendees that they felt my demos were the most helpful to make decisions. I don't know if sales improved or not as I didn't have access to that information, but the feedback I received from all demos were pretty consistent. I think people are starved for facts as they don't want to have to wade through all the BS to get the info they seek, and in many cases, some people are making decisions to expand a company or switch a pipeline and aren't fully informed themselves what they are looking for because perhaps they're striving for something a bit outside of their comfort zone or level of experience. Informative demos help them, and a good informative demo will entice a customer to follow up. Matt From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Sam Cuttriss Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 2:50 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. Stop thinking of advertising/ demonstration/ documentation and education as isolated entities. in doing so you can make the money you spend massively more productive. look at the success of stephen blairs blog: http://xsisupport.com/ ( Its criminally insane you fired him by the way ) its a go to site for anyone using ice. With a little work something like that could be dressed up as a showcase of softimage work and a technical reference of production techniques. An inspiration to students, and something to pique the curiosity of professionals using other softwares. _sam
Re: In case you missed it..
Maurice, What was the reason AD purchased Softimage if they didn't think they could market it as a full fledged 3D app? Was it to grab most of the market and stifle the competition? If you really wanted to get a good handle one what benefits Softimage has for users of other packages it would have been better for AD and that screwy research agency to sit a user from Max down with a user familiar with Softimage AND Max then compare notes and show the wide range of benefits and use that in the marketing Same applies to Maya. A one sided view from someone not familiar with using the package being pretty useless should have been obvious I would think for anyone from a marketing background. Its obvious to me someone with no marketing experience. I'd love to have it all laid out for me though on how the evaluation was done. Eric Thivierge http://www.ethivierge.com
Re: In case you missed it..
i don't buy the research-story - instead i believe softimage ended up in the particles corner because they had to visually balance the bonus-tools of the suites in a chart with a given set of buzzwords. chris -- --- Christoph Mütze http://www.glarestudios.de http://www.twitter.com/chris_muetze c...@glarestudios.de On 09/12/2012hin 08:38 AM, Eric Thivierge wrote: Maurice, What was the reason AD purchased Softimage if they didn't think they could market it as a full fledged 3D app? Was it to grab most of the market and stifle the competition? If you really wanted to get a good handle one what benefits Softimage has for users of other packages it would have been better for AD and that screwy research agency to sit a user from Max down with a user familiar with Softimage AND Max then compare notes and show the wide range of benefits and use that in the marketing Same applies to Maya. A one sided view from someone not familiar with using the package being pretty useless should have been obvious I would think for anyone from a marketing background. Its obvious to me someone with no marketing experience. I'd love to have it all laid out for me though on how the evaluation was done. Eric Thivierge http://www.ethivierge.com
Re: In case you missed it..
get the talent and patents. On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 11:38 PM, Eric Thivierge ethivie...@gmail.comwrote: What was the reason AD purchased Softimage if they didn't think they could market it as a full fledged 3D app? Was it to grab most of the market and stifle the competition?
Re: In case you missed it..
What patents? Eric Thivierge http://www.ethivierge.com On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 5:25 PM, Steven Caron car...@gmail.com wrote: get the talent and patents.
Re: In case you missed it..
talent mostly but there are patents some which you might not think are important. type in 'avid technologies render' in google patents search and see for yourself. halfdan posted this a long time ago i think, but the first comes to mind for me is the render region... http://www.google.com/patents?id=1k8EEBAJzoom=4dq=avid%20technology%20renderpg=PA12#v=onepageqf=false s On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 12:53 AM, Eric Thivierge ethivie...@gmail.comwrote: What patents? Eric Thivierge http://www.ethivierge.com On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 5:25 PM, Steven Caron car...@gmail.com wrote: get the talent and patents.
Re: In case you missed it..
oh i should add, i have not clue which patents avid let go if any at all. On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 12:58 AM, Steven Caron car...@gmail.com wrote: talent mostly but there are patents some which you might not think are important. type in 'avid technologies render' in google patents search and see for yourself. halfdan posted this a long time ago i think, but the first comes to mind for me is the render region... http://www.google.com/patents?id=1k8EEBAJzoom=4dq=avid%20technology%20renderpg=PA12#v=onepageqf=false s On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 12:53 AM, Eric Thivierge ethivie...@gmail.comwrote: What patents? Eric Thivierge http://www.ethivierge.com On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 5:25 PM, Steven Caron car...@gmail.com wrote: get the talent and patents.
Re: In case you missed it..
well, since avid was competition at one point. having these patents means they dont have to license it or be brought to court to use the license or avoid the better solution to the problem. btw, i am purely speculating, as i said i have no idea which patents avid let go if any at all. s On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 1:04 AM, Eric Thivierge ethivie...@gmail.comwrote: Are they worth anything? Anyone else licensing the tech? Eric Thivierge http://www.ethivierge.com On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 5:58 PM, Steven Caron car...@gmail.com wrote: talent mostly but there are patents some which you might not think are important. type in 'avid technologies render' in google patents search and see for yourself. halfdan posted this a long time ago i think, but the first comes to mind for me is the render region... http://www.google.com/patents?id=1k8EEBAJzoom=4dq=avid%20technology%20renderpg=PA12#v=onepageqf=false s
Re: In case you missed it..
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 1:07 AM, Maurice Patel maurice.pa...@autodesk.com wrote: this thread http://yfrog.com/h0t6exxtj: Although I can't say I am particularly fond of that diagram myself (it's rather ugly), it actually came out of a study commissioned from a third Funny how everyone from Autodesk tells us they dont agree or think it's ugly. But still they decide to use it. I remember when Discreet Logic was bought. Funny thing happened... the Logic went away. But Autodesk is not the only one to blame. It's the people who ran the Softimage company back in the late 90's. The battle was actually lost the year 2000 with the release of Softimage|XSI. Maya had gained so much popularity, and when Sumatra was finally released we were given a software that could only do Nurbs and only render with Mental Ray. It was totally useless and closed. Maya was the total opposite, useful and open. What we are seeing now is actually something that happened 12 years ago. The battle was lost already back then. My regret is only that I don't jump onto the Maya wagon back then, but stayed in Softimage|3D. I should have switched and learned MEL. Anyhow. As you were... /stefan -- stefan andersson - digital janitor - http://sanders3d.wordpress.com
Re: In case you missed it..
My regret is only that I don't jump onto the Maya wagon back then, but stayed in Softimage|3D. I should have switched and learned MEL. Not I, having to learn something as filthy as maya as my first app most likely would have caused me to give up and try something else.. in fact I started out in both max and maya but never got anywhere til I tried softimage... long live the good old days! On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 8:19 PM, Stefan Andersson sander...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 1:07 AM, Maurice Patel maurice.pa...@autodesk.com wrote: this thread http://yfrog.com/h0t6exxtj: Although I can't say I am particularly fond of that diagram myself (it's rather ugly), it actually came out of a study commissioned from a third Funny how everyone from Autodesk tells us they dont agree or think it's ugly. But still they decide to use it. I remember when Discreet Logic was bought. Funny thing happened... the Logic went away. But Autodesk is not the only one to blame. It's the people who ran the Softimage company back in the late 90's. The battle was actually lost the year 2000 with the release of Softimage|XSI. Maya had gained so much popularity, and when Sumatra was finally released we were given a software that could only do Nurbs and only render with Mental Ray. It was totally useless and closed. Maya was the total opposite, useful and open. What we are seeing now is actually something that happened 12 years ago. The battle was lost already back then. My regret is only that I don't jump onto the Maya wagon back then, but stayed in Softimage|3D. I should have switched and learned MEL. Anyhow. As you were... /stefan -- stefan andersson - digital janitor - http://sanders3d.wordpress.com -- Andreas Byström Lighting TD - Weta Digital
Re: In case you missed it..
My first 3D application was 3d studio r4, couldn't get anywhere. Then I learned Amapi and Electric Image and came a bit further :) However Maya isn't that bad. Gotten used to it over the years and I'm quite bilingual these days. People who started with Prism deserve a price though. regards stefan andersson On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Andreas Bystrom andreas.byst...@gmail.com wrote: My regret is only that I don't jump onto the Maya wagon back then, but stayed in Softimage|3D. I should have switched and learned MEL. Not I, having to learn something as filthy as maya as my first app most likely would have caused me to give up and try something else.. in fact I started out in both max and maya but never got anywhere til I tried softimage... long live the good old days! On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 8:19 PM, Stefan Andersson sander...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 1:07 AM, Maurice Patel maurice.pa...@autodesk.com wrote: this thread http://yfrog.com/h0t6exxtj: Although I can't say I am particularly fond of that diagram myself (it's rather ugly), it actually came out of a study commissioned from a third Funny how everyone from Autodesk tells us they dont agree or think it's ugly. But still they decide to use it. I remember when Discreet Logic was bought. Funny thing happened... the Logic went away. But Autodesk is not the only one to blame. It's the people who ran the Softimage company back in the late 90's. The battle was actually lost the year 2000 with the release of Softimage|XSI. Maya had gained so much popularity, and when Sumatra was finally released we were given a software that could only do Nurbs and only render with Mental Ray. It was totally useless and closed. Maya was the total opposite, useful and open. What we are seeing now is actually something that happened 12 years ago. The battle was lost already back then. My regret is only that I don't jump onto the Maya wagon back then, but stayed in Softimage|3D. I should have switched and learned MEL. Anyhow. As you were... /stefan -- stefan andersson - digital janitor - http://sanders3d.wordpress.com -- Andreas Byström Lighting TD - Weta Digital -- stefan andersson - digital janitor - http://sanders3d.wordpress.com
RE: In case you missed it.
Hehe, I started with 3D Studio r4 (Vesa drivers?:) ), then jumpen on Max, and was a fanatic max user until I met Lightwave...then I was a fanatic LW user until I met Softimage. Now I use mostly Softimage, a bit of Max, and I am quite familiar with Maya...but...my favourite is ZBrush...:D -Original Message- From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Stefan Andersson Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 10:41 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it. My first 3D application was 3d studio r4, couldn't get anywhere. Then I learned Amapi and Electric Image and came a bit further :) However Maya isn't that bad. Gotten used to it over the years and I'm quite bilingual these days. People who started with Prism deserve a price though. regards stefan andersson On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Andreas Bystrom andreas.byst...@gmail.com wrote: My regret is only that I don't jump onto the Maya wagon back then, but stayed in Softimage|3D. I should have switched and learned MEL. Not I, having to learn something as filthy as maya as my first app most likely would have caused me to give up and try something else.. in fact I started out in both max and maya but never got anywhere til I tried softimage... long live the good old days! On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 8:19 PM, Stefan Andersson sander...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 1:07 AM, Maurice Patel maurice.pa...@autodesk.com wrote: this thread http://yfrog.com/h0t6exxtj: Although I can't say I am particularly fond of that diagram myself (it's rather ugly), it actually came out of a study commissioned from a third Funny how everyone from Autodesk tells us they dont agree or think it's ugly. But still they decide to use it. I remember when Discreet Logic was bought. Funny thing happened... the Logic went away. But Autodesk is not the only one to blame. It's the people who ran the Softimage company back in the late 90's. The battle was actually lost the year 2000 with the release of Softimage|XSI. Maya had gained so much popularity, and when Sumatra was finally released we were given a software that could only do Nurbs and only render with Mental Ray. It was totally useless and closed. Maya was the total opposite, useful and open. What we are seeing now is actually something that happened 12 years ago. The battle was lost already back then. My regret is only that I don't jump onto the Maya wagon back then, but stayed in Softimage|3D. I should have switched and learned MEL. Anyhow. As you were... /stefan -- stefan andersson - digital janitor - http://sanders3d.wordpress.com -- Andreas Byström Lighting TD - Weta Digital -- stefan andersson - digital janitor - http://sanders3d.wordpress.com
Re: In case you missed it..
wait, Maurice, you hired a company that used Max Maya animators to evaluate Softimage for its benefits to them? then based your entire strategy on this? what about benefits to the existing Softimage user basel! this is the problem we have you fool don't you see it?! pardon the french, calling the head of AD marketing for M E a fool is considerably politer than the choice of words I would like to use. even more incensed now. On 12 September 2012 09:41, Stefan Andersson sander...@gmail.com wrote: My first 3D application was 3d studio r4, couldn't get anywhere. Then I learned Amapi and Electric Image and came a bit further :) However Maya isn't that bad. Gotten used to it over the years and I'm quite bilingual these days. People who started with Prism deserve a price though. regards stefan andersson On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Andreas Bystrom andreas.byst...@gmail.com wrote: My regret is only that I don't jump onto the Maya wagon back then, but stayed in Softimage|3D. I should have switched and learned MEL. Not I, having to learn something as filthy as maya as my first app most likely would have caused me to give up and try something else.. in fact I started out in both max and maya but never got anywhere til I tried softimage... long live the good old days! On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 8:19 PM, Stefan Andersson sander...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 1:07 AM, Maurice Patel maurice.pa...@autodesk.com wrote: this thread http://yfrog.com/h0t6exxtj: Although I can't say I am particularly fond of that diagram myself (it's rather ugly), it actually came out of a study commissioned from a third Funny how everyone from Autodesk tells us they dont agree or think it's ugly. But still they decide to use it. I remember when Discreet Logic was bought. Funny thing happened... the Logic went away. But Autodesk is not the only one to blame. It's the people who ran the Softimage company back in the late 90's. The battle was actually lost the year 2000 with the release of Softimage|XSI. Maya had gained so much popularity, and when Sumatra was finally released we were given a software that could only do Nurbs and only render with Mental Ray. It was totally useless and closed. Maya was the total opposite, useful and open. What we are seeing now is actually something that happened 12 years ago. The battle was lost already back then. My regret is only that I don't jump onto the Maya wagon back then, but stayed in Softimage|3D. I should have switched and learned MEL. Anyhow. As you were... /stefan -- stefan andersson - digital janitor - http://sanders3d.wordpress.com -- Andreas Byström Lighting TD - Weta Digital -- stefan andersson - digital janitor - http://sanders3d.wordpress.com
Re: In case you missed it..
Rob, I'll quote myself and you'll see the connection I remember when Discreet Logic was bought. Funny thing happened... the Logic went away. And that affected all departments I guess :) -stefan On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Rob Chapman tekano@gmail.com wrote: wait, Maurice, you hired a company that used Max Maya animators to evaluate Softimage for its benefits to them? then based your entire strategy on this? what about benefits to the existing Softimage user basel! this is the problem we have you fool don't you see it?! pardon the french, calling the head of AD marketing for M E a fool is considerably politer than the choice of words I would like to use. even more incensed now. On 12 September 2012 09:41, Stefan Andersson sander...@gmail.com wrote: My first 3D application was 3d studio r4, couldn't get anywhere. Then I learned Amapi and Electric Image and came a bit further :) However Maya isn't that bad. Gotten used to it over the years and I'm quite bilingual these days. People who started with Prism deserve a price though. regards stefan andersson On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Andreas Bystrom andreas.byst...@gmail.com wrote: My regret is only that I don't jump onto the Maya wagon back then, but stayed in Softimage|3D. I should have switched and learned MEL. Not I, having to learn something as filthy as maya as my first app most likely would have caused me to give up and try something else.. in fact I started out in both max and maya but never got anywhere til I tried softimage... long live the good old days! On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 8:19 PM, Stefan Andersson sander...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 1:07 AM, Maurice Patel maurice.pa...@autodesk.com wrote: this thread http://yfrog.com/h0t6exxtj: Although I can't say I am particularly fond of that diagram myself (it's rather ugly), it actually came out of a study commissioned from a third Funny how everyone from Autodesk tells us they dont agree or think it's ugly. But still they decide to use it. I remember when Discreet Logic was bought. Funny thing happened... the Logic went away. But Autodesk is not the only one to blame. It's the people who ran the Softimage company back in the late 90's. The battle was actually lost the year 2000 with the release of Softimage|XSI. Maya had gained so much popularity, and when Sumatra was finally released we were given a software that could only do Nurbs and only render with Mental Ray. It was totally useless and closed. Maya was the total opposite, useful and open. What we are seeing now is actually something that happened 12 years ago. The battle was lost already back then. My regret is only that I don't jump onto the Maya wagon back then, but stayed in Softimage|3D. I should have switched and learned MEL. Anyhow. As you were... /stefan -- stefan andersson - digital janitor - http://sanders3d.wordpress.com -- Andreas Byström Lighting TD - Weta Digital -- stefan andersson - digital janitor - http://sanders3d.wordpress.com -- stefan andersson - digital janitor - http://sanders3d.wordpress.com
Re: In case you missed it..
Hello Maurice, /I know Autodesk Marketing is often hard to fathom/ Then you (AD) have a serious comunication problem. The way AD advertise on SI just creates a panic climate. I'm not sure this will increase the sells. All your ways of communicating on SI looks like you're going to interrupt it (Less visibility, minimizing it's capabilities, proposing it as a third party software, firing off some of its iconic developers). SI is not half package. It's complete. It's scalable and self sufficient. My 2 euro cents Le 12/09/2012 01:07, Maurice Patel a écrit : Rolling up my sleeves :) If you don't know me, I (still) head Product/Industry Marketing for ME and have posted a couple of times on the forum about our strategy. First. I'd like to respond to the link to the campaign item that started this thread http://yfrog.com/h0t6exxtj: Although I can't say I am particularly fond of that diagram myself (it's rather ugly), it actually came out of a study commissioned from a third party research company that hired 3ds Max and Maya animators to evaluate what (if any) value Softimage, MotionBuilder and Mudbox offered to Maya and 3ds Max users as a means of determining the value of Suites - so we used it in the Suites Campaign. The specific purpose of the campaign is to encourage 3ds max and Maya users to buy Suites; so yes it focuses only on the areas of these applications that offer significant value above and beyond what Maya and 3ds max can already do. It is not meant to be an exhaustive description of those applications capabilities. I know Autodesk Marketing is often hard to fathom - heck it is for us too, but if we want Softimage to survive we (the marketing team) need to work with the system not against it. We are not going run a campaign to switch Maya or 3ds max users to Softimage - that would kill our business and create a massive customer outcry for no real gain. Any expectation that we would do that is unrealistic. So, if we are not going to do that, then we need to find a better way to get people to adopt Softimage and, while not perfect, Suites has been our best bet yet. Given that, take a pause and ask objectively where is Autodesk's real opportunity here? Is it to run a campaign encouraging Softimage users to add Maya (or 3ds max) to their toolset? Or vice versa? Which would (1) be the better business decision and (2) get Softimage in the hands of more users? You will probably reach the same conclusion we did. In terms of overall exposure, I am not going to deny that Softimage is less visible than when it was part of Avid. Then Softimage was run as its own entity and there was 100% focus on one(ish) product (ish because there was actually a few more than one). That is not the case now. Autodesk runs its business pretty much as one centralized operation for the sale of efficiency and scale and so ME competes with hundreds of other Autodesk products for mind share when it comes to marketing investment and visibility - and ME is not the largest part of Autodesk's business. This dictates exactly how much coverage ME gets and how many and what products we can feature on things like the home page. Oddly enough though, the bulk of our web traffic actually goes directly to the product pages so it can be argued that this specific point is moot anyway. But yes, visibility is reduced and suffers as a function of a given product's ranking in the Autodesk product stack. Believe me, I have similar discussions with Flame users who also believe we have abandoned marketing Flame. Deep down most of this is related to our centralized marketing processes discussed above and not to any individual. This is not going to change nor is it clear that any alternative could be successful and/or profitable. Or at least not in the sense one might expect. In the long run Suites and Cloud Services are changing the way Autodesk views products but not in the traditional sense. My team's constant challenge is therefore to figure out how to increase visibility within the systems we have - be it through more aggressive social media strategies (why we launched the Softimage Facebook page) or other methods. While the good old days have nostalgic value (and yes we remember when Discreet Logic had its own website, as did Alias and Softimage, with their own dedicated Marketing resources), we have long realized we can never go back to those days. The battles have moved on to new battlefields - but it does continue! Maurice Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134
Re: In case you missed it..
+1 thats exactly how i feel right now, having a serious look into Houdini. best sebastian Am 12.09.2012 um 12:59 schrieb olivier jeannel olivier.jean...@noos.fr: Hello Maurice, I know Autodesk Marketing is often hard to fathom Then you (AD) have a serious comunication problem. The way AD advertise on SI just creates a panic climate. I'm not sure this will increase the sells. All your ways of communicating on SI looks like you're going to interrupt it (Less visibility, minimizing it's capabilities, proposing it as a third party software, firing off some of its iconic developers). SI is not half package. It's complete. It's scalable and self sufficient. My 2 euro cents Le 12/09/2012 01:07, Maurice Patel a écrit : Rolling up my sleeves :) If you don't know me, I (still) head Product/Industry Marketing for ME and have posted a couple of times on the forum about our strategy. First. I'd like to respond to the link to the campaign item that started this thread http://yfrog.com/h0t6exxtj: Although I can't say I am particularly fond of that diagram myself (it's rather ugly), it actually came out of a study commissioned from a third party research company that hired 3ds Max and Maya animators to evaluate what (if any) value Softimage, MotionBuilder and Mudbox offered to Maya and 3ds Max users as a means of determining the value of Suites - so we used it in the Suites Campaign. The specific purpose of the campaign is to encourage 3ds max and Maya users to buy Suites; so yes it focuses only on the areas of these applications that offer significant value above and beyond what Maya and 3ds max can already do. It is not meant to be an exhaustive description of those applications capabilities. I know Autodesk Marketing is often hard to fathom - heck it is for us too, but if we want Softimage to survive we (the marketing team) need to work with the system not against it. We are not going run a campaign to switch Maya or 3ds max users to Softimage - that would kill our business and create a massive customer outcry for no real gain. Any expectation that we would do that is unrealistic. So, if we are not going to do that, then we need to find a better way to get people to adopt Softimage and, while not perfect, Suites has been our best bet yet. Given that, take a pause and ask objectively where is Autodesk's real opportunity here? Is it to run a campaign encouraging Softimage users to add Maya (or 3ds max) to their toolset? Or vice versa? Which would (1) be the better business decision and (2) get Softimage in the hands of more users? You will probably reach the same conclusion we did. In terms of overall exposure, I am not going to deny that Softimage is less visible than when it was part of Avid. Then Softimage was run as its own entity and there was 100% focus on one(ish) product (ish because there was actually a few more than one). That is not the case now. Autodesk runs its business pretty much as one centralized operation for the sale of efficiency and scale and so ME competes with hundreds of other Autodesk products for mind share when it comes to marketing investment and visibility - and ME is not the largest part of Autodesk's business. This dictates exactly how much coverage ME gets and how many and what products we can feature on things like the home page. Oddly enough though, the bulk of our web traffic actually goes directly to the product pages so it can be argued that this specific point is moot anyway. But yes, visibility is reduced and suffers as a function of a given product's ranking in the Autodesk product stack. Believe me, I have similar discussions with Flame users who also believe we have abandoned marketing Flame. Deep down most of this is related to our centralized marketing processes discussed above and not to any individual. This is not going to change nor is it clear that any alternative could be successful and/or profitable. Or at least not in the sense one might expect. In the long run Suites and Cloud Services are changing the way Autodesk views products but not in the traditional sense. My team's constant challenge is therefore to figure out how to increase visibility within the systems we have - be it through more aggressive social media strategies (why we launched the Softimage Facebook page) or other methods. While the good old days have nostalgic value (and yes we remember when Discreet Logic had its own website, as did Alias and Softimage, with their own dedicated Marketing resources), we have long realized we can never go back to those days. The battles have moved o n to ne w battlefields - but it does continue! Maurice Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134
RE: In case you missed it..
I think what Maurice was saying was that, we wanted to know what Max Maya people thought or perceived the value was of having Mobu, Mudbox and Softimage in their studio/pipeline, in the context of buying and using Suites. The company (to the best of my knowledge) is an independent research company, which means the data is fair and unbiased. Now the thing is, Softimage isn’t just a particles package, we know it’s a full 3D app, it can match Maya and Max on an equal footing, you know it, I know, we know it. But to a fully established Maya/Max studio, strange as it might seem, they perhaps don’t know that, or maybe not full story. Some people have already mentioned about some people’s perception of Softimage(XSI) and wondering if it was still going. And again as people have mentioned, it’s about the perception and showing its worth. They need to see the value, and from the data/survey Maurice mentions (whether you like it or not) seems to suggest that those Maya/Max users thought particles was benefit of having Softimage. Stepping back for a moment, suppose we spin this around, as someone mentioned about the Softimage Suite. Suppose we commissioned the same survey but instead canvassed Softimage users on the benefit of having Mobu, Mudbox, but more importantly Maya and/or Max in their studio/pipeline. What would the perceived value be, I wonder? I’m not saying I completely agree with our marketing strategy or the survey, but on balance I can see the reasoning and a method to the madness. From my view, all I know is that, I need to do all I can to show Softimage in the light it deserves. G From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Rob Chapman Sent: 12 September 2012 10:29 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. wait, Maurice, you hired a company that used Max Maya animators to evaluate Softimage for its benefits to them? then based your entire strategy on this? what about benefits to the existing Softimage user basel! this is the problem we have you fool don't you see it?! pardon the french, calling the head of AD marketing for M E a fool is considerably politer than the choice of words I would like to use. even more incensed now. On 12 September 2012 09:41, Stefan Andersson sander...@gmail.commailto:sander...@gmail.com wrote: My first 3D application was 3d studio r4, couldn't get anywhere. Then I learned Amapi and Electric Image and came a bit further :) However Maya isn't that bad. Gotten used to it over the years and I'm quite bilingual these days. People who started with Prism deserve a price though. regards stefan andersson On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Andreas Bystrom andreas.byst...@gmail.commailto:andreas.byst...@gmail.com wrote: My regret is only that I don't jump onto the Maya wagon back then, but stayed in Softimage|3D. I should have switched and learned MEL. Not I, having to learn something as filthy as maya as my first app most likely would have caused me to give up and try something else.. in fact I started out in both max and maya but never got anywhere til I tried softimage... long live the good old days! On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 8:19 PM, Stefan Andersson sander...@gmail.commailto:sander...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 1:07 AM, Maurice Patel maurice.pa...@autodesk.commailto:maurice.pa...@autodesk.com wrote: this thread http://yfrog.com/h0t6exxtj: Although I can't say I am particularly fond of that diagram myself (it's rather ugly), it actually came out of a study commissioned from a third Funny how everyone from Autodesk tells us they dont agree or think it's ugly. But still they decide to use it. I remember when Discreet Logic was bought. Funny thing happened... the Logic went away. But Autodesk is not the only one to blame. It's the people who ran the Softimage company back in the late 90's. The battle was actually lost the year 2000 with the release of Softimage|XSI. Maya had gained so much popularity, and when Sumatra was finally released we were given a software that could only do Nurbs and only render with Mental Ray. It was totally useless and closed. Maya was the total opposite, useful and open. What we are seeing now is actually something that happened 12 years ago. The battle was lost already back then. My regret is only that I don't jump onto the Maya wagon back then, but stayed in Softimage|3D. I should have switched and learned MEL. Anyhow. As you were... /stefan -- stefan andersson - digital janitor - http://sanders3d.wordpress.com -- Andreas Byström Lighting TD - Weta Digital -- stefan andersson - digital janitor - http://sanders3d.wordpress.com attachment: winmail.dat
RE: In case you missed it..
Another reply, but more about FR Raffaele, I totally agree about Face Robot and I don't know why we appeared to ease off pushing it. But I would like to step it up going forward. Pre-Autodesk, Face Robot always appeared to be out best kept secret and now at Autodesk, it many ways, it still is. I still come across people, even now, who think that until last year it cost 100k! I believe though, that there is still value in FR, more than people might think, and literally every person I have ever showed it too, liked it and got it. G From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Raffaele Fragapane Sent: 12 September 2012 01:40 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. Fire the company that did that study then ;) because every other person in the middle end of competence that's never used XSI seems at least curious about facerobot, and not so much about particles, although ICE these days is of course one of the most positively linked thoughs when Soft is mentioned. While FR isn't quite as polished and complete as it should be, there's a big chunk of A market that would see value in it, especially since there's no alternative to it and it's less complicated than briding FX pipelines. It seemed for a while that was being pushed, but I imagine that, like in most other regards it seems, the character and animation markets are already fully cornered anyway, so AD probably doesn't see much benefit in rippling the waters in that pond. Again, this is my perception of things, I'm sure everything looks differently internally. Maybe there is a big plan internally, but from where I sit my arse, it looks like everything is turned on its head every few months. Again, you pitching in candidly is sincerely appreciated, at least by me. On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:29 AM, Maurice Patel maurice.pa...@autodesk.commailto:maurice.pa...@autodesk.com wrote: I don't disagree at all. But dealing with the realities of how things actually work versus how they should work is part of our day to day. We play the cards we are dealt and push for change in ways we feel can succeed. However, there is that saying from Bacon. If the mountain But to be clear, we did not sample the user base to get the diagram. The consulting company paid professionals to execute a productivity study that was published separately last year. The diagram is from that. Whether what we are doing is being elegantly done or not, Autodesk, across its industries,is trying to alter public perception: to move away from the notion of hero products that do everything to a suite of products that provide a best-in-class workflow to (eventually) a set of cloud services that offer you exactly what you need when and where you need it and for as long as you need it. This is a bit simplistic and Utopian but i am typing on a mobile device now. it is however at the heart of Autodesk's strategy. Where each product and industry is in relation to this strategy, as well as its velocity in terms of getting there, is highly variable and it is certainly not going to happen overnight. Dealing with the reality of what we have today in relation to this and in relation to what customers need to do to run their businesses now brings me back to the start of my response :) On 2012-09-11, at 7:31 PM, Raffaele Fragapane raffsxsil...@googlemail.commailto:raffsxsil...@googlemail.com wrote: While appreciated, that's not terribly encouraging, Maurice. And I don't know where the idea that marketing should sample the userbase and then promote whatever perception is found came from, but wherever it came from, a link to Phil Knight, Young and Rubican, Armando Testa, and other founders of modern marketing should be sent for their benefit. It's supposed to alter and guide public perception into profit and want, not to consolidate it (especially when it's clearly flawed) in the hope the receiving end doesn't get mildly offended :p If a client perceives something he hasn't bought yet a certain way (see diagram), and you literally confirm that and nod vigorously, their incentive to buy that thing will be exactly 0. He will do what he was thinking to do before you reached him. Since the price is already fixed anyway, you might as well make things a bit more encouraging than you have to learn an entire new app, as complex as any you already rely on and own and took you years to master, to move a pointcloud around. But mind, this is unfathomable, not sure it's good to hear that is for you guys as well though ;) -- Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are! attachment: winmail.dat
Re: In case you missed it..
so basically, the existing Softimage user base can jsut sod off! On 12 September 2012 13:08, Graham Bell graham.b...@autodesk.com wrote: I think what Maurice was saying was that, we wanted to know what Max Maya people thought or perceived the value was of having Mobu, Mudbox and Softimage in their studio/pipeline, in the context of buying and using Suites. The company (to the best of my knowledge) is an independent research company, which means the data is fair and unbiased. Now the thing is, Softimage isn’t just a particles package, we know it’s a full 3D app, it can match Maya and Max on an equal footing, you know it, I know, we know it. But to a fully established Maya/Max studio, strange as it might seem, they perhaps don’t know that, or maybe not full story. Some people have already mentioned about some people’s perception of Softimage(XSI) and wondering if it was still going. And again as people have mentioned, it’s about the perception and showing its worth. They need to see the value, and from the data/survey Maurice mentions (whether you like it or not) seems to suggest that those Maya/Max users thought particles was benefit of having Softimage. Stepping back for a moment, suppose we spin this around, as someone mentioned about the Softimage Suite. Suppose we commissioned the same survey but instead canvassed Softimage users on the benefit of having Mobu, Mudbox, but more importantly Maya and/or Max in their studio/pipeline. What would the perceived value be, I wonder? I’m not saying I completely agree with our marketing strategy or the survey, but on balance I can see the reasoning and a method to the madness. From my view, all I know is that, I need to do all I can to show Softimage in the light it deserves. G From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Rob Chapman Sent: 12 September 2012 10:29 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. wait, Maurice, you hired a company that used Max Maya animators to evaluate Softimage for its benefits to them? then based your entire strategy on this? what about benefits to the existing Softimage user basel! this is the problem we have you fool don't you see it?! pardon the french, calling the head of AD marketing for M E a fool is considerably politer than the choice of words I would like to use. even more incensed now. On 12 September 2012 09:41, Stefan Andersson sander...@gmail.commailto: sander...@gmail.com wrote: My first 3D application was 3d studio r4, couldn't get anywhere. Then I learned Amapi and Electric Image and came a bit further :) However Maya isn't that bad. Gotten used to it over the years and I'm quite bilingual these days. People who started with Prism deserve a price though. regards stefan andersson On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Andreas Bystrom andreas.byst...@gmail.commailto:andreas.byst...@gmail.com wrote: My regret is only that I don't jump onto the Maya wagon back then, but stayed in Softimage|3D. I should have switched and learned MEL. Not I, having to learn something as filthy as maya as my first app most likely would have caused me to give up and try something else.. in fact I started out in both max and maya but never got anywhere til I tried softimage... long live the good old days! On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 8:19 PM, Stefan Andersson sander...@gmail.com mailto:sander...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 1:07 AM, Maurice Patel maurice.pa...@autodesk.commailto:maurice.pa...@autodesk.com wrote: this thread http://yfrog.com/h0t6exxtj: Although I can't say I am particularly fond of that diagram myself (it's rather ugly), it actually came out of a study commissioned from a third Funny how everyone from Autodesk tells us they dont agree or think it's ugly. But still they decide to use it. I remember when Discreet Logic was bought. Funny thing happened... the Logic went away. But Autodesk is not the only one to blame. It's the people who ran the Softimage company back in the late 90's. The battle was actually lost the year 2000 with the release of Softimage|XSI. Maya had gained so much popularity, and when Sumatra was finally released we were given a software that could only do Nurbs and only render with Mental Ray. It was totally useless and closed. Maya was the total opposite, useful and open. What we are seeing now is actually something that happened 12 years ago. The battle was lost already back then. My regret is only that I don't jump onto the Maya wagon back then, but stayed in Softimage|3D. I should have switched and learned MEL. Anyhow. As you were... /stefan -- stefan andersson - digital janitor - http://sanders3d.wordpress.com -- Andreas Byström Lighting TD - Weta Digital -- stefan andersson - digital janitor - http
Re: In case you missed it..
I can't regret having learned Softimage by any means. I've been using Maya for years, and Softimage a lot shorter, but I can say I'm a lot more productive in Soft than I ever was in Maya. As long as it stays that way I'm going to use it, and given the speed at which Maya is being developed and improved with features here and there that Max and Soft had since version 1.0 (I'm talking about usability improvements) or issues solved that Soft never had, it's probably going to take another three to five years until it reaches the same level of usability and ease of use, let alone surpassing it, and even that only if Softimage's development goes down to zero. In other words: I can't regret transitioning from Max/Maya to Softimage, it's been the most rewarding and fun experience in my career (and the most frustrating whenever it comes to discussions with people who know shit about it and don't even want to know more than that), and I'm not going to adopt or revert to an inferior p! roduct just because lot's of other people have, or don't even know they have. Should Softimage ever be discontinued or fall behind the others it might be time to move on to whatever better product the market offers at that time, whether that will be Maya 2018, Blender 4.5, Modo 901, Houdini 17 or Cinema4D 2020 I don't care, there will be enough time to adopt it gradually. Stefan PS: And Stefan, you don't want to learn MEL, seriously! My regret is only that I don't jump onto the Maya wagon back then, but stayed in Softimage|3D. I should have switched and learned MEL. Not I, having to learn something as filthy as maya as my first app most likely would have caused me to give up and try something else.. in fact I started out in both max and maya but never got anywhere til I tried softimage... long live the good old days! On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 8:19 PM, Stefan Andersson sander...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 1:07 AM, Maurice Patel maurice.pa...@autodesk.com wrote: this thread http://yfrog.com/h0t6exxtj: Although I can't say I am particularly fond of that diagram myself (it's rather ugly), it actually came out of a study commissioned from a third Funny how everyone from Autodesk tells us they dont agree or think it's ugly. But still they decide to use it. I remember when Discreet Logic was bought. Funny thing happened... the Logic went away. But Autodesk is not the only one to blame. It's the people who ran the Softimage company back in the late 90's. The battle was actually lost the year 2000 with the release of Softimage|XSI. Maya had gained so much popularity, and when Sumatra was finally released we were given a software that could only do Nurbs and only render with Mental Ray. It was totally useless and closed. Maya was the total opposite, useful and open. What we are seeing now is actually something that happened 12 years ago. The battle was lost already back then. My regret is only that I don't jump onto the Maya wagon back then, but stayed in Softimage|3D. I should have switched and learned MEL. Anyhow. As you were... /stefan -- stefan andersson - digital janitor - http://sanders3d.wordpress.com -- --- Stefan Kubicek Co-founder --- keyvis digital imagery Wehrgasse 9 - Grüner Hof 1050 Vienna Austria Phone:+43/699/12614231 --- www.keyvis.at ste...@keyvis.at --- -- This email and its attachments are --confidential and for the recipient only--
RE: In case you missed it..
No, I never said that and I don’t see what I said even remotely suggested that. It’s the context, as Maurice put it – “The specific purpose of the campaign is to encourage 3ds max and Maya users to buy Suites” From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Rob Chapman Sent: 12 September 2012 13:17 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. so basically, the existing Softimage user base can jsut sod off! On 12 September 2012 13:08, Graham Bell graham.b...@autodesk.commailto:graham.b...@autodesk.com wrote: I think what Maurice was saying was that, we wanted to know what Max Maya people thought or perceived the value was of having Mobu, Mudbox and Softimage in their studio/pipeline, in the context of buying and using Suites. The company (to the best of my knowledge) is an independent research company, which means the data is fair and unbiased. Now the thing is, Softimage isn’t just a particles package, we know it’s a full 3D app, it can match Maya and Max on an equal footing, you know it, I know, we know it. But to a fully established Maya/Max studio, strange as it might seem, they perhaps don’t know that, or maybe not full story. Some people have already mentioned about some people’s perception of Softimage(XSI) and wondering if it was still going. And again as people have mentioned, it’s about the perception and showing its worth. They need to see the value, and from the data/survey Maurice mentions (whether you like it or not) seems to suggest that those Maya/Max users thought particles was benefit of having Softimage. Stepping back for a moment, suppose we spin this around, as someone mentioned about the Softimage Suite. Suppose we commissioned the same survey but instead canvassed Softimage users on the benefit of having Mobu, Mudbox, but more importantly Maya and/or Max in their studio/pipeline. What would the perceived value be, I wonder? I’m not saying I completely agree with our marketing strategy or the survey, but on balance I can see the reasoning and a method to the madness. From my view, all I know is that, I need to do all I can to show Softimage in the light it deserves. G From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Rob Chapman Sent: 12 September 2012 10:29 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. wait, Maurice, you hired a company that used Max Maya animators to evaluate Softimage for its benefits to them? then based your entire strategy on this? what about benefits to the existing Softimage user basel! this is the problem we have you fool don't you see it?! pardon the french, calling the head of AD marketing for M E a fool is considerably politer than the choice of words I would like to use. even more incensed now. On 12 September 2012 09:41, Stefan Andersson sander...@gmail.commailto:sander...@gmail.commailto:sander...@gmail.commailto:sander...@gmail.com wrote: My first 3D application was 3d studio r4, couldn't get anywhere. Then I learned Amapi and Electric Image and came a bit further :) However Maya isn't that bad. Gotten used to it over the years and I'm quite bilingual these days. People who started with Prism deserve a price though. regards stefan andersson On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Andreas Bystrom andreas.byst...@gmail.commailto:andreas.byst...@gmail.commailto:andreas.byst...@gmail.commailto:andreas.byst...@gmail.com wrote: My regret is only that I don't jump onto the Maya wagon back then, but stayed in Softimage|3D. I should have switched and learned MEL. Not I, having to learn something as filthy as maya as my first app most likely would have caused me to give up and try something else.. in fact I started out in both max and maya but never got anywhere til I tried softimage... long live the good old days! On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 8:19 PM, Stefan Andersson sander...@gmail.commailto:sander...@gmail.commailto:sander...@gmail.commailto:sander...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 1:07 AM, Maurice Patel maurice.pa...@autodesk.commailto:maurice.pa...@autodesk.commailto:maurice.pa...@autodesk.commailto:maurice.pa...@autodesk.com wrote: this thread http://yfrog.com/h0t6exxtj: Although I can't say I am particularly fond of that diagram myself (it's rather ugly), it actually came out of a study commissioned from a third Funny how everyone from Autodesk tells us they dont agree or think it's ugly. But still they decide to use it. I remember when Discreet Logic was bought. Funny thing happened... the Logic went away. But Autodesk is not the only one to blame. It's the people who ran the Softimage company back in the late 90's. The battle was actually lost the year 2000
Re: In case you missed it..
Mr. Patel, what I do not understand: how could it hurt sales when Softimage is sold eye height with max and Maya? Pricewise, Softimage has been put on the same level with max and Maya... I bet suddenly the same marketing people were clever enough to see a cheap Softimage as a potential threat to the other packages. You own all three. Loose one seat of Maya or max, and most probably gain one for Softimage. That's all that can happen. Aks people who know all three packages which one is, all in all, most artist-friendly and productive (if that counts anything anymore). The thought of having to use max or Maya again gives me this ugly gut feeling... before that, I'd opt for Houdini, Modo, or maybe some open source alternative. There may be a selling point in max/Maya bundled with Softimage, I don't doubt that. Continue with it, it's better than nothing. But what's so bloody embarrassing is that AD omits to properly put Softimage out on in the stage light, side by side with the other packages, to give it a fair chance to get chosen among the three, especially by newcomers. Bit of a Cinderella story, where she is mistreated in favor of her ugly nasty siblings... Am 12.09.2012 02:29, schrieb Maurice Patel: I don't disagree at all. But dealing with the realities of how things actually work versus how they should work is part of our day to day. We play the cards we are dealt and push for change in ways we feel can succeed. However, there is that saying from Bacon. If the mountain But to be clear, we did not sample the user base to get the diagram. The consulting company paid professionals to execute a productivity study that was published separately last year. The diagram is from that. Whether what we are doing is being elegantly done or not, Autodesk, across its industries,is trying to alter public perception: to move away from the notion of hero products that do everything to a suite of products that provide a best-in-class workflow to (eventually) a set of cloud services that offer you exactly what you need when and where you need it and for as long as you need it. This is a bit simplistic and Utopian but i am typing on a mobile device now. it is however at the heart of Autodesk's strategy. Where each product and industry is in relation to this strategy, as well as its velocity in terms of getting there, is highly variable and it is certainly not going to happen overnight. Dealing with the reality of what we have today in relation to this and in relation to what customers need to do to run their businesses now brings me back to the start of my response :) On 2012-09-11, at 7:31 PM, Raffaele Fragapane raffsxsil...@googlemail.com wrote: While appreciated, that's not terribly encouraging, Maurice. And I don't know where the idea that marketing should sample the userbase and then promote whatever perception is found came from, but wherever it came from, a link to Phil Knight, Young and Rubican, Armando Testa, and other founders of modern marketing should be sent for their benefit. It's supposed to alter and guide public perception into profit and want, not to consolidate it (especially when it's clearly flawed) in the hope the receiving end doesn't get mildly offended :p If a client perceives something he hasn't bought yet a certain way (see diagram), and you literally confirm that and nod vigorously, their incentive to buy that thing will be exactly 0. He will do what he was thinking to do before you reached him. Since the price is already fixed anyway, you might as well make things a bit more encouraging than you have to learn an entire new app, as complex as any you already rely on and own and took you years to master, to move a pointcloud around. But mind, this is unfathomable, not sure it's good to hear that is for you guys as well though ;)
Re: In case you missed it..
I think what Maurice was saying was that, we wanted to know what Max Maya people thought or perceived the value was of having Mobu, Mudbox and Softimage in their studio/pipeline, in the context of buying and using Suites. The company (to the best of my knowledge) is an independent research company, which means the data is fair and unbiased. What does the perception give you? Are you hoping they buy products on what they perceive to be good at something or something the know definitively will help them. Its like the littlest effort to get them interested instead of barraging them with all of the cool features. Honestly, take a Mark Schoennagel approach to marketing. Why wouldn't a studio want to know about all of the killer advantages of having both apps than just 1? They don't know what they are looking at when looking around themselves. ... it’s about the perception and showing its worth. They need to see the value, and from the data/survey Maurice mentions (whether you like it or not) seems to suggest that those Maya/Max users thought particles was benefit of having Softimage. Again unless we saw how this whole survey thing was orchestrated, I'm assuming that they plopped a few Max users in front of Softimage and said, Hey, click a few buttons and see what you can do. Was there any consultation with anyone from the Softimage product specialists, evangelists, devs, or users? Were they shown videos / demos of the whole product or just some of the other stock stuff that comes with the install? Stepping back for a moment, suppose we spin this around, as someone mentioned about the Softimage Suite. Suppose we commissioned the same survey but instead canvassed Softimage users on the benefit of having Mobu, Mudbox, but more importantly Maya and/or Max in their studio/pipeline. What would the perceived value be, I wonder? I don't know could you send some people over who have used both in production to give me and educated demo / overview of the areas each are weak and where the other may excel to help fill the gaps in my pipeline? Graham I hope you know I'm not trying to pick on you or pick your statements apart. I'm just trying to illustrate the arguments one may have of this whole thing... - Eric T.
Re: In case you missed it..
Last thought on this whole thing and then I'm grabbing some pop corn to see how the rest rolls out. Maurice, it seems that the marketing is only worried about new customers and existing Max and Maya customers. Isn't it also important to market to your current customers as well? Eric Thivierge http://www.ethivierge.com
Re: In case you missed it..
never mind Bellsey, you couldn't appreciate the irony of Mr Mayalicious being the Softimage PM either. Its pretty damn obvious that AD sees Softimage as something for its Maya Max users and not something for the Softimage users. On 12 September 2012 13:39, Graham Bell graham.b...@autodesk.com wrote: No, I never said that and I don’t see what I said even remotely suggested that. It’s the context, as Maurice put it – “The specific purpose of the campaign is to encourage 3ds max and Maya users to buy Suites” From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Rob Chapman Sent: 12 September 2012 13:17 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. so basically, the existing Softimage user base can jsut sod off! On 12 September 2012 13:08, Graham Bell graham.b...@autodesk.commailto: graham.b...@autodesk.com wrote: I think what Maurice was saying was that, we wanted to know what Max Maya people thought or perceived the value was of having Mobu, Mudbox and Softimage in their studio/pipeline, in the context of buying and using Suites. The company (to the best of my knowledge) is an independent research company, which means the data is fair and unbiased. Now the thing is, Softimage isn’t just a particles package, we know it’s a full 3D app, it can match Maya and Max on an equal footing, you know it, I know, we know it. But to a fully established Maya/Max studio, strange as it might seem, they perhaps don’t know that, or maybe not full story. Some people have already mentioned about some people’s perception of Softimage(XSI) and wondering if it was still going. And again as people have mentioned, it’s about the perception and showing its worth. They need to see the value, and from the data/survey Maurice mentions (whether you like it or not) seems to suggest that those Maya/Max users thought particles was benefit of having Softimage. Stepping back for a moment, suppose we spin this around, as someone mentioned about the Softimage Suite. Suppose we commissioned the same survey but instead canvassed Softimage users on the benefit of having Mobu, Mudbox, but more importantly Maya and/or Max in their studio/pipeline. What would the perceived value be, I wonder? I’m not saying I completely agree with our marketing strategy or the survey, but on balance I can see the reasoning and a method to the madness. From my view, all I know is that, I need to do all I can to show Softimage in the light it deserves. G From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Rob Chapman Sent: 12 September 2012 10:29 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. wait, Maurice, you hired a company that used Max Maya animators to evaluate Softimage for its benefits to them? then based your entire strategy on this? what about benefits to the existing Softimage user basel! this is the problem we have you fool don't you see it?! pardon the french, calling the head of AD marketing for M E a fool is considerably politer than the choice of words I would like to use. even more incensed now. On 12 September 2012 09:41, Stefan Andersson sander...@gmail.commailto: sander...@gmail.commailto:sander...@gmail.commailto:sander...@gmail.com wrote: My first 3D application was 3d studio r4, couldn't get anywhere. Then I learned Amapi and Electric Image and came a bit further :) However Maya isn't that bad. Gotten used to it over the years and I'm quite bilingual these days. People who started with Prism deserve a price though. regards stefan andersson On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Andreas Bystrom andreas.byst...@gmail.commailto:andreas.byst...@gmail.commailto: andreas.byst...@gmail.commailto:andreas.byst...@gmail.com wrote: My regret is only that I don't jump onto the Maya wagon back then, but stayed in Softimage|3D. I should have switched and learned MEL. Not I, having to learn something as filthy as maya as my first app most likely would have caused me to give up and try something else.. in fact I started out in both max and maya but never got anywhere til I tried softimage... long live the good old days! On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 8:19 PM, Stefan Andersson sander...@gmail.com mailto:sander...@gmail.commailto:sander...@gmail.commailto: sander...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 1:07 AM, Maurice Patel maurice.pa...@autodesk.commailto:maurice.pa...@autodesk.commailto: maurice.pa...@autodesk.commailto:maurice.pa...@autodesk.com wrote: this thread http://yfrog.com/h0t6exxtj: Although I can't say I am particularly fond of that diagram myself (it's rather ugly), it actually came out of a study commissioned from
RE: In case you missed it..
Eric, I agree and I'm also with Mark in that it's better to show as much as possible. Often though particles (ICE) is the hook, but I'm not a 'spray pray' man when it comes to demos and features, I prefer to deal with specific problems and pipeline requirements. Incidentally no one has ever told/ordered me to only show particles in a Softimage context. G From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Eric Thivierge Sent: 12 September 2012 13:44 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. I think what Maurice was saying was that, we wanted to know what Max Maya people thought or perceived the value was of having Mobu, Mudbox and Softimage in their studio/pipeline, in the context of buying and using Suites. The company (to the best of my knowledge) is an independent research company, which means the data is fair and unbiased. What does the perception give you? Are you hoping they buy products on what they perceive to be good at something or something the know definitively will help them. Its like the littlest effort to get them interested instead of barraging them with all of the cool features. Honestly, take a Mark Schoennagel approach to marketing. Why wouldn't a studio want to know about all of the killer advantages of having both apps than just 1? They don't know what they are looking at when looking around themselves. ... it's about the perception and showing its worth. They need to see the value, and from the data/survey Maurice mentions (whether you like it or not) seems to suggest that those Maya/Max users thought particles was benefit of having Softimage. Again unless we saw how this whole survey thing was orchestrated, I'm assuming that they plopped a few Max users in front of Softimage and said, Hey, click a few buttons and see what you can do. Was there any consultation with anyone from the Softimage product specialists, evangelists, devs, or users? Were they shown videos / demos of the whole product or just some of the other stock stuff that comes with the install? Stepping back for a moment, suppose we spin this around, as someone mentioned about the Softimage Suite. Suppose we commissioned the same survey but instead canvassed Softimage users on the benefit of having Mobu, Mudbox, but more importantly Maya and/or Max in their studio/pipeline. What would the perceived value be, I wonder? I don't know could you send some people over who have used both in production to give me and educated demo / overview of the areas each are weak and where the other may excel to help fill the gaps in my pipeline? Graham I hope you know I'm not trying to pick on you or pick your statements apart. I'm just trying to illustrate the arguments one may have of this whole thing... - Eric T. attachment: winmail.dat
Re: In case you missed it..
I was about to say the same thing. Le 12/09/2012 14:49, Eric Thivierge a écrit : Last thought on this whole thing and then I'm grabbing some pop corn to see how the rest rolls out. Maurice, it seems that the marketing is only worried about new customers and existing Max and Maya customers. Isn't it also important to market to your current customers as well? Eric Thivierge http://www.ethivierge.com
Re: In case you missed it..
The mentioned (eventual) move to the cloud leads me to believe this max/maya suite push is intended to, among other things, transition Softimage users over to those packages, which is pretty distasteful considering Autodesk representatives have repeated the reversed case would be offensive to the users and outright wrong! Count me into the group looking desperately for something non-Autodesk with a specific clause it will never be sold to them. On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 2:52 PM, Rob Chapman tekano@gmail.com wrote: never mind Bellsey, you couldn't appreciate the irony of Mr Mayalicious being the Softimage PM either. Its pretty damn obvious that AD sees Softimage as something for its Maya Max users and not something for the Softimage users. On 12 September 2012 13:39, Graham Bell graham.b...@autodesk.com wrote: No, I never said that and I don’t see what I said even remotely suggested that. It’s the context, as Maurice put it – “The specific purpose of the campaign is to encourage 3ds max and Maya users to buy Suites” From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Rob Chapman Sent: 12 September 2012 13:17 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. so basically, the existing Softimage user base can jsut sod off! On 12 September 2012 13:08, Graham Bell graham.b...@autodesk.commailto: graham.b...@autodesk.com wrote: I think what Maurice was saying was that, we wanted to know what Max Maya people thought or perceived the value was of having Mobu, Mudbox and Softimage in their studio/pipeline, in the context of buying and using Suites. The company (to the best of my knowledge) is an independent research company, which means the data is fair and unbiased. Now the thing is, Softimage isn’t just a particles package, we know it’s a full 3D app, it can match Maya and Max on an equal footing, you know it, I know, we know it. But to a fully established Maya/Max studio, strange as it might seem, they perhaps don’t know that, or maybe not full story. Some people have already mentioned about some people’s perception of Softimage(XSI) and wondering if it was still going. And again as people have mentioned, it’s about the perception and showing its worth. They need to see the value, and from the data/survey Maurice mentions (whether you like it or not) seems to suggest that those Maya/Max users thought particles was benefit of having Softimage. Stepping back for a moment, suppose we spin this around, as someone mentioned about the Softimage Suite. Suppose we commissioned the same survey but instead canvassed Softimage users on the benefit of having Mobu, Mudbox, but more importantly Maya and/or Max in their studio/pipeline. What would the perceived value be, I wonder? I’m not saying I completely agree with our marketing strategy or the survey, but on balance I can see the reasoning and a method to the madness. From my view, all I know is that, I need to do all I can to show Softimage in the light it deserves. G From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Rob Chapman Sent: 12 September 2012 10:29 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. wait, Maurice, you hired a company that used Max Maya animators to evaluate Softimage for its benefits to them? then based your entire strategy on this? what about benefits to the existing Softimage user basel! this is the problem we have you fool don't you see it?! pardon the french, calling the head of AD marketing for M E a fool is considerably politer than the choice of words I would like to use. even more incensed now. On 12 September 2012 09:41, Stefan Andersson sander...@gmail.commailto: sander...@gmail.commailto:sander...@gmail.commailto: sander...@gmail.com wrote: My first 3D application was 3d studio r4, couldn't get anywhere. Then I learned Amapi and Electric Image and came a bit further :) However Maya isn't that bad. Gotten used to it over the years and I'm quite bilingual these days. People who started with Prism deserve a price though. regards stefan andersson On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Andreas Bystrom andreas.byst...@gmail.commailto:andreas.byst...@gmail.commailto: andreas.byst...@gmail.commailto:andreas.byst...@gmail.com wrote: My regret is only that I don't jump onto the Maya wagon back then, but stayed in Softimage|3D. I should have switched and learned MEL. Not I, having to learn something as filthy as maya as my first app most likely would have caused me to give up and try something else.. in fact I started out in both max and maya but never got anywhere til I tried softimage... long live the good old days
Re: In case you missed it..
Stefan I'm not sure I understand your logic. You don't recommend anyone learn or buy Soft anymore yet you want people to move from Maya and Max? One of the biggest problems with Soft is the limited number of people who use it well. If you're not explaining to people who inquire about it, and how it may or may not be an asset then how do you expect anything to change? Who really pays attention to this marketing garbage anyway? marketing, salesmen, they don't have to really know anything about it, they push a strategy plan and a script. I didn't decide to learn SoftImage 3D in 1995 instead of Alias or Wavefront because of marketing materials, I asked people who were doing great work, and people who had jobs. Word of mouth is extremely important. You've been in this business a long time and if someone takes the time to ask it's because they respect your opinion and will use it to make a decision at a later date. I'm not saying tell everyone Soft is the only option when it's obvious that something like, for example, C4D would be a better fit. Don't automatically dismiss it. Just food for thought. Eric On Sep 10, 2012 3:08 PM, Stefan Andersson sander...@gmail.com wrote: Just to throw some more gasoline onto the fire. So the value to a 3dsmax/Maya user would be to use Softimage as a particle plugin. Everything else their respective Software is good at. I know you don't agree with them Graham, and it's not you who wrote/made this :) It's been said over and over again on this list, *it doesn't seem that Autodesk cares about Softimage.* * * And it's for that reason alone that I don't recommend anyone (anymore) to buy or learn Softimage. Autodesk representatives on this list is trying to assure us, but apparently those people have absolutely NO contact with the Marketing/PR people. It's not that we have been asking for much, but the way they market Softimage and the way new users and studios look at Softimage... well... you get my point. I don't want Softimage to be a good companion to Maya3dsmax, I want Softimage to kick their ass and make all users leave their software and use Softimage instead!! But that is not in Autodesk view a good thing. And for this reason I think Autodesk is really bad for Softimage. Why is attitude and kick butt mentality a bad thing? it's what keeps a lot of us going and improving our-self. It's what makes us trying to reach for those extra 10% in a production. Am I pissed at Autodesk? you bet you sweet ass I am. I spent years behind Softimage and got companies to buy the software that were Maya based, and really really tried to get it to work... With ICE I had big hopes. But... Autodesk had little incentive to kick Maya/3dsmax out the window. They made Softimage into a particle plugin. So what happens now? I know it's pointless rant, and it just adds fuel to the fire. But it's difficult to talk about something positive when it comes to Softimage. It's like having a Formula One car, but you live in the country side and no one understands why you have it. Sorry for the rant everyone. best regards Stefan On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 4:36 PM, Graham Bell graham.b...@autodesk.comwrote: Perhaps worth pointing out that this is a Entertainment Creation 'Suites' magazine and of the course the two main flavours (Ultimate aside) for the Suites are Maya and Max. And therefore the three packages shown in the image are all including in the Maya/Max Suites, hence the reason for trying to show their value to those respective users. From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Paul Griswold Sent: 10 September 2012 15:08 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: In case you missed it.. This is the kind of stuff that makes me really dislike Autodesk: http://yfrog.com/h0t6exxtj I'm glad to know Softimage is a particle system that has single-step interoperability with the apps in the Areas of Excellence (Max and Maya). -Paul -- stefan andersson - digital janitor - http://sanders3d.wordpress.com
Re: In case you missed it..
On 2012-09-12 09:25, Steven Caron wrote: get the talent and patents. On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 11:38 PM, Eric Thivierge ethivie...@gmail.com mailto:ethivie...@gmail.com wrote: What was the reason AD purchased Softimage if they didn't think they could market it as a full fledged 3D app? Was it to grab most of the market and stifle the competition? Get access to the rather large number of softimage seats in Japan...
RE: In case you missed it..
All, I normally don't post on the list given that my experience is way lower in the use of Softimage than everyone else. However, given I am a subscription user (for many years) and want to protect my investment, I feel motivated to comment. There is a lot of passion for Softimage being displayed here and you would think that this would be something that Autodesk would want to nurture. But from my observations, their current approach is doing the opposite and is actually pushing users away. I understand the marketing strategy for the suites and admit, if I had responsibility for growing sales of Softimage, I would probably adopt the same/similar approach. However, in my opinion there is a flaw in this strategy in that the targeted marketing of the suites is leaking out into the wider customer base. It's impacting a wider range of stakeholders than it may have been intended to impact. For example, potential new entrants into the 3D field will read the suites marketing material and this will negatively affect their impression of Softimage and its capabilities. Also, buyers of artists' services could be similarly affected when considering personnel for jobs or developing their own pipelines. This all feeds negatively into sustaining Softimage sales. Therefore, I believe that Autodesk should review its overall marketing strategy to ensure that the plan for one stakeholder type doesn't negatively impact another. This is what is happening with the suites marketing and a such something needs to be done to correct it. Can a suite marketing strategy that positions Softimage for its incremental benefits to Maya/Max sit comfortably alongside a more inclusive marketing strategy of Softimage, as a whole product for customers that don't want suites (for whatever reason)? I think so, but maybe I'm missing something. So, in my view the solution to the current concerns of the Softimage user base is not to stop or adjust the suite marketing, but more to do with ensuring that marketing for other stakeholders is visible and effective. Best Alan -Original Message- From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Graham Bell Sent: 12 September 2012 13:09 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: RE: In case you missed it.. I think what Maurice was saying was that, we wanted to know what Max Maya people thought or perceived the value was of having Mobu, Mudbox and Softimage in their studio/pipeline, in the context of buying and using Suites. The company (to the best of my knowledge) is an independent research company, which means the data is fair and unbiased. Now the thing is, Softimage isn’t just a particles package, we know it’s a full 3D app, it can match Maya and Max on an equal footing, you know it, I know, we know it. But to a fully established Maya/Max studio, strange as it might seem, they perhaps don’t know that, or maybe not full story. Some people have already mentioned about some people’s perception of Softimage(XSI) and wondering if it was still going. And again as people have mentioned, it’s about the perception and showing its worth. They need to see the value, and from the data/survey Maurice mentions (whether you like it or not) seems to suggest that those Maya/Max users thought particles was benefit of having Softimage. Stepping back for a moment, suppose we spin this around, as someone mentioned about the Softimage Suite. Suppose we commissioned the same survey but instead canvassed Softimage users on the benefit of having Mobu, Mudbox, but more importantly Maya and/or Max in their studio/pipeline. What would the perceived value be, I wonder? I’m not saying I completely agree with our marketing strategy or the survey, but on balance I can see the reasoning and a method to the madness. From my view, all I know is that, I need to do all I can to show Softimage in the light it deserves. G From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Rob Chapman Sent: 12 September 2012 10:29 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. wait, Maurice, you hired a company that used Max Maya animators to evaluate Softimage for its benefits to them? then based your entire strategy on this? what about benefits to the existing Softimage user basel! this is the problem we have you fool don't you see it?! pardon the french, calling the head of AD marketing for M E a fool is considerably politer than the choice of words I would like to use. even more incensed now. On 12 September 2012 09:41, Stefan Andersson sander...@gmail.commailto:sander...@gmail.com wrote: My first 3D application was 3d studio r4, couldn't get anywhere. Then I learned Amapi and Electric Image and came a bit further :) However Maya isn't that bad. Gotten used to it over the years and I'm quite
Re: In case you missed it..
Maya people are a dime a dozen and they typically get employed in a starting $30K to $35K USD range. Because there are so many Maya users running around, studios can employ a lot more of them for a dirt-cheap salary. Maya is only more prevalent in studios because it started out much cheaper than Softimage ($10K vs. $100K). Softimage is 24 years old and Maya is only 14 years old. All this time Maya has only been trying to play catch-up to SI. Autodesk could easily market SI, sell more seats, and uplift consumer confidence... but it doesn't want to. Autodesk is suppressing Softimage on purpose because it wants to, and because it can. Autodesk wants to market 3ds Max for architectural and Maya for entertainment. Softimage is just some side money that has an unknown future. All-in-all, jumping to Houdini is starting to look appealing. Daniel VFXM
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Hello Mr. Maurice, although many of the points you make about the suit strategies make sense, some things dont quite add up. I am not saying selling it to Max and Maya people is not a good strategie, dont get me wrong. It is ok if AD wants to do some extra bucks, and if SI can offer this guys something that is missing in other packages. As other people have stated, the main problem is the fact that Softimage has gotten badly mistreated in marketing outside of anything related to suits. You may argue that is not, but lets check the evidence: Mayas latest custumer story September 2012 http://area.autodesk.com/products/view/maya Maxs latest custumer story September 2012 http://area.autodesk.com/products/view/3dsmax SIs latest customer story MARCH 2010!! Ill repeat MARCH 2010!!! http://area.autodesk.com/products/view/softimage Now, although there is surely a lot more customers, and therefore stories, on the Maya side, was there really nothing relevant happening in SIs planet the last couple years? COME ON! We see a bunch of commercials on Vimeo, know of some feature animation like the one Alok has talked about, the work from the guys at Triggerfish, the work done on A Monster in Paris, work done by AnimaLogic, etc... etc... Some of this could be even sold as suits, whatever, just guive credit where credit is due! Yeah there is a Facebook page where some of this stuff is published in a slacky way, but having stuff from 2010 in a product page certainly may influence the way some executives see something they are about to buy. It is hard to understand as to why this is happening, maybe you can enlighten us. Fact is for people that are NOT currently AD users Softimage is invisible. For them Softimage could actually (or not) look advantageous. They could find it usable for animation in general, for Face Robot ( https://vimeo.com/48329089), maybe because of particles or procedural goodies... People that use Modo, C4D, people that sculpt stuff in ZBrush and want to get into animation, but they will never hear about Softimage. Softimage is not being advertised as a companion, it is ONLY being avdertised as a companion, detracting value of the curriculum of people who have spent years learning it to do all kind of things in a 3d pipeline. Oh so you use Softimage, so I guess all you can do is move a bunch of little particles around (if that).
Re: In case you missed it..
The gut feeling I get from this thread is, AD views Softimage as a product that cannot stand on its own outside of perhaps Japan. I have no idea why it's a better idea to spend marketing money trying to up-sell Max and Maya users on Suites than it is to take that marketing budget and try to build a larger customer base: whether they buy Max, Maya, Softimage or one of the Suites. Wouldn't it be a much wiser use of marketing dollars to highlight the value in each of the 3 and cast a wide net? The only conclusion I can come to is, other than Mark Schoennagel, there really is no evangelist for Softimage left. When the majority of people making the decisions apparently don't see the value in Softimage, why would anyone expect it to receive more than what it's gotten so far? ICE, Face Robot, the animation mixer, the FX Tree, and so on. You'd think this is the perfect mix to market to small studios, freelancers, etc. And, I'm fairly certain a lot more licenses can be sold to those markets than you'll sell to Dreamworks. I realize it's a lot more sexy to show Shrek on a demo at SIGGRAPH than a commercial for vacuum cleaners, but seriously I am pretty sure commercial work makes up a much larger volume of animation compared to feature work overall. I seriously hope the new dev team isn't disheartened by all this talk. I continue to have high hopes that in spite of AD's continued attempts to treat Softimage as the red-headed step-child of the family, it will live on and thrive. -PG
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In the end it doesn't make sense for AD to own all 3 products. It makes hard for the marketing and sales people to promote and sell 3 somewhat competing products The suite idea only make sense with something like the Adobe's suites when they are all different products. There are too much overlapped in the AD suite to justify the cost for small studio like ours. We have been strictly using Softimage/XSI over all these years, we just hope it doesn't go away. like TDI and Wavefront My cents, L. On 9/12/2012 12:09 PM, Paul Griswold wrote: The gut feeling I get from this thread is, AD views Softimage as a product that cannot stand on its own outside of perhaps Japan. I have no idea why it's a better idea to spend marketing money trying to up-sell Max and Maya users on Suites than it is to take that marketing budget and try to build a larger customer base: whether they buy Max, Maya, Softimage or one of the Suites. Wouldn't it be a much wiser use of marketing dollars to highlight the value in each of the 3 and cast a wide net? The only conclusion I can come to is, other than Mark Schoennagel, there really is no evangelist for Softimage left. When the majority of people making the decisions apparently don't see the value in Softimage, why would anyone expect it to receive more than what it's gotten so far? ICE, Face Robot, the animation mixer, the FX Tree, and so on. You'd think this is the perfect mix to market to small studios, freelancers, etc. And, I'm fairly certain a lot more licenses can be sold to those markets than you'll sell to Dreamworks. I realize it's a lot more sexy to show Shrek on a demo at SIGGRAPH than a commercial for vacuum cleaners, but seriously I am pretty sure commercial work makes up a much larger volume of animation compared to feature work overall. I seriously hope the new dev team isn't disheartened by all this talk. I continue to have high hopes that in spite of AD's continued attempts to treat Softimage as the red-headed step-child of the family, it will live on and thrive. -PG
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On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 12:46 PM, Sajjad Amjad sajjad.am...@gmail.comwrote: For me, when looking at out-of-the-box functionality, Houdini ticks more boxes than any comparable AD product. I'm with you 1000% Sajjad. Hell, Houdini's even more fun to use! However, as far as freelance work goes, I get the feeling that Houdini jobs are still pretty hard to find unless you fancy a bit of globetrotting or have the experience to name your price. It's still quite a niche. So, if AD continues to diminish all those years of work we've put in, the vast majority of us are still up the creek without a paddle. Unless of course you don't mind the idea of working with Maya all day. I do.
RE: In case you missed it..
my thoughts and situation exactly + 1cent Jeff From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Leoung O'Young Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 12:29 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: In case you missed it.. In the end it doesn't make sense for AD to own all 3 products. It makes hard for the marketing and sales people to promote and sell 3 somewhat competing products The suite idea only make sense with something like the Adobe's suites when they are all different products. There are too much overlapped in the AD suite to justify the cost for small studio like ours. We have been strictly using Softimage/XSI over all these years, we just hope it doesn't go away. like TDI and Wavefront My cents, L. On 9/12/2012 12:09 PM, Paul Griswold wrote: The gut feeling I get from this thread is, AD views Softimage as a product that cannot stand on its own outside of perhaps Japan. I have no idea why it's a better idea to spend marketing money trying to up-sell Max and Maya users on Suites than it is to take that marketing budget and try to build a larger customer base: whether they buy Max, Maya, Softimage or one of the Suites. Wouldn't it be a much wiser use of marketing dollars to highlight the value in each of the 3 and cast a wide net? The only conclusion I can come to is, other than Mark Schoennagel, there really is no evangelist for Softimage left. When the majority of people making the decisions apparently don't see the value in Softimage, why would anyone expect it to receive more than what it's gotten so far? ICE, Face Robot, the animation mixer, the FX Tree, and so on. You'd think this is the perfect mix to market to small studios, freelancers, etc. And, I'm fairly certain a lot more licenses can be sold to those markets than you'll sell to Dreamworks. I realize it's a lot more sexy to show Shrek on a demo at SIGGRAPH than a commercial for vacuum cleaners, but seriously I am pretty sure commercial work makes up a much larger volume of animation compared to feature work overall. I seriously hope the new dev team isn't disheartened by all this talk. I continue to have high hopes that in spite of AD's continued attempts to treat Softimage as the red-headed step-child of the family, it will live on and thrive. -PG
RE: In case you missed it..
Just to be clear. I run Product Marketing so what you see is in mainly a direct result of my efforts – no mysterious “Autodesk” bogey man. I am ex-softimage/avid and even though I was primarily focused on compositing and DS when I was there, I know full well what the product is capable of and we do make every effort we can market Softimage as a full-fledged application. In fact, if you check, this is exactly how we do market it: (www.autodesk.com/softimagehttp://www.autodesk.com/softimage ). Autodesk® Softimage® 2013 3D character animationhttp://www.autodesk.com/3danimation and visual effects software delivers powerful new creative toolsets, a new high-fidelity interactive environment, and extended customizability. These new features help artists and technical directors working in visual effectshttp://www.autodesk.com/visualeffectssoftware, post productionhttp://www.autodesk.com/postproductionsoftware, and 3D game developmenthttp://usa.autodesk.com/media-entertainment/games/ get more from the product. From the new CrowdFX simulation feature, to enhanced modeling, animation, physics, and selection tools, Softimage 2013 helps you create compelling content faster. 3D Character Rigginghttp://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/item?siteID=123112id=18307345 Dynamic Simulationhttp://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/item?siteID=123112id=18307927 ICE Softimage GigaCorehttp://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/item?siteID=123112id=18306951 Pipeline Integrationhttp://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/item?siteID=123112id=18307164 Rendering Imaginghttp://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/item?siteID=123112id=18307868 Character Facial Animationhttp://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/item?siteID=123112id=18307811 Modeling Texturinghttp://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/item?siteID=123112id=18307958 What started this thread (and what most people seem to be hung up on) is a very specific campaign with a very specific purpose. You need to understand that purpose because otherwise the discussion has no meaning. For example, if we run an upgrade program promoting the new features in a release that does NOT mean that those features are all that the product does. It just means that for the intended audience (product owners that you want to upgrade) that is the most relevant message. Of course it makes no sense to a newcomer interested in the overall capabilities of the product. I am going to stand by my original position that if the intent of the campaign is to get Maya and 3ds max users to upgrade to a Suite and start using Softimage and MotionBuilder and Mudbox than the most effective way to do that is to tell them what those products ADD to what they already have. The intent of the campaign is NOT to promote the overall capabilities of Softimage to a new user. Now we can also argue till we are blue in the face as to which campaign we should focus on, but that campaign was specifically chosen because (1) the strategy across all Autodesk industries is to promote Suites and we need to align to that strategy and (2) we have a business to run and our largest business opportunity for Suites is of course 3ds max and Maya users. I am no Don Quixote, and have no interest in fighting pointless battles. I still believe we are embarked on the right strategies to (1) promote our portfolio and (2) grow our business in the context of both market demographics and Autodesk strategy. So let us put this one to rest. The campaign does what it is meant to do and speculating about alternative campaigns, while academically interesting, is irrelevant to the goal of selling Suites. In terms of general awareness – we have limited budgets and so we do what we can with what we have got. Our primary awareness vehicle for all products is the product/trial page on Autodesk.com – this is where the bulk of our traffic goes and through social media. Most of our program budgets and efforts are tied up in Suites initiatives. While it is nice to speculate what things would be like if Avid had not sold Softimage to Autodesk the point is moot whether we like it or not. We are all working with that reality and the complications that engenders. I certainly cannot pretend like it did not happen. Ultimately it is incorrect to assume that Marketing does not know what Softimage does as a product nor who our customers are or what their concerns are. We are very well aware and I and my team work hard to do the most we can with the resources we have. Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 attachment: winmail.dat
Re: In case you missed it..
In fact, if you check, this is exactly how we do market it: ( www.autodesk.com/softimagehttp://www.autodesk.com/softimage ). As an extension to Autodesk® Maya® http://www.autodesk.com/maya or Autodesk® 3ds Max® http://www.autodesk.com/3dsmax software pipelines, while Maya is 3D animation software that delivers a comprehensive creative feature set with tools for animation, modeling, simulation, rendering, matchmoving, and compositing on a highly extensible production platform, and 3dsMax provides a comprehensive, integrated 3D modeling, animation, rendering, and compositing solution for game developers, visual effects artists, and motion graphics artists along with other creative professionals working in the media design industry. Maya is even a compositing package here, something that is only half true (and I'm being generous), while Softimage indeed does have an integrated compositor and its not even mentioned on the Features page. So again, which one of these 3 is being sold short? On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 7:16 PM, Maurice Patel maurice.pa...@autodesk.comwrote: Just to be clear. I run Product Marketing so what you see is in mainly a direct result of my efforts – no mysterious “Autodesk” bogey man. I am ex-softimage/avid and even though I was primarily focused on compositing and DS when I was there, I know full well what the product is capable of and we do make every effort we can market Softimage as a full-fledged application. In fact, if you check, this is exactly how we do market it: ( www.autodesk.com/softimagehttp://www.autodesk.com/softimage ). Autodesk® Softimage® 2013 3D character animation http://www.autodesk.com/3danimation and visual effects software delivers powerful new creative toolsets, a new high-fidelity interactive environment, and extended customizability. These new features help artists and technical directors working in visual effects http://www.autodesk.com/visualeffectssoftware, post production http://www.autodesk.com/postproductionsoftware, and 3D game development http://usa.autodesk.com/media-entertainment/games/ get more from the product. From the new CrowdFX simulation feature, to enhanced modeling, animation, physics, and selection tools, Softimage 2013 helps you create compelling content faster. 3D Character Rigging http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/item?siteID=123112id=18307345 Dynamic Simulation http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/item?siteID=123112id=18307927 ICE Softimage GigaCore http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/item?siteID=123112id=18306951 Pipeline Integration http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/item?siteID=123112id=18307164 Rendering Imaging http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/item?siteID=123112id=18307868 Character Facial Animation http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/item?siteID=123112id=18307811 Modeling Texturing http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/item?siteID=123112id=18307958 What started this thread (and what most people seem to be hung up on) is a very specific campaign with a very specific purpose. You need to understand that purpose because otherwise the discussion has no meaning. For example, if we run an upgrade program promoting the new features in a release that does NOT mean that those features are all that the product does. It just means that for the intended audience (product owners that you want to upgrade) that is the most relevant message. Of course it makes no sense to a newcomer interested in the overall capabilities of the product. I am going to stand by my original position that if the intent of the campaign is to get Maya and 3ds max users to upgrade to a Suite and start using Softimage and MotionBuilder and Mudbox than the most effective way to do that is to tell them what those products ADD to what they already have. The intent of the campaign is NOT to promote the overall capabilities of Softimage to a new user. Now we can also argue till we are blue in the face as to which campaign we should focus on, but that campaign was specifically chosen because (1) the strategy across all Autodesk industries is to promote Suites and we need to align to that strategy and (2) we have a business to run and our largest business opportunity for Suites is of course 3ds max and Maya users. I am no Don Quixote, and have no interest in fighting pointless battles. I still believe we are embarked on the right strategies to (1) promote our portfolio and (2) grow our business in the context of both market demographics and Autodesk strategy. So let us put this one to rest. The campaign does what it is meant to do and speculating about alternative campaigns, while academically interesting, is irrelevant to the goal of selling Suites. In terms of general awareness – we have limited budgets and so we do what we can with what we have got. Our primary awareness vehicle for all products is the product/trial page on Autodesk.com – this is where the bulk of our
Re: In case you missed it..
and its not even mentioned on the Features page. Correction, it is. If you dig deep enough. On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 7:32 PM, Kiril Aronofski flyone...@gmail.comwrote: In fact, if you check, this is exactly how we do market it: ( www.autodesk.com/softimagehttp://www.autodesk.com/softimage ). As an extension to Autodesk® Maya® http://www.autodesk.com/maya or Autodesk® 3ds Max® http://www.autodesk.com/3dsmax software pipelines, while Maya is 3D animation software that delivers a comprehensive creative feature set with tools for animation, modeling, simulation, rendering, matchmoving, and compositing on a highly extensible production platform, and 3dsMax provides a comprehensive, integrated 3D modeling, animation, rendering, and compositing solution for game developers, visual effects artists, and motion graphics artists along with other creative professionals working in the media design industry. Maya is even a compositing package here, something that is only half true (and I'm being generous), while Softimage indeed does have an integrated compositor and its not even mentioned on the Features page. So again, which one of these 3 is being sold short? On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 7:16 PM, Maurice Patel maurice.pa...@autodesk.com wrote: Just to be clear. I run Product Marketing so what you see is in mainly a direct result of my efforts – no mysterious “Autodesk” bogey man. I am ex-softimage/avid and even though I was primarily focused on compositing and DS when I was there, I know full well what the product is capable of and we do make every effort we can market Softimage as a full-fledged application. In fact, if you check, this is exactly how we do market it: ( www.autodesk.com/softimagehttp://www.autodesk.com/softimage ). Autodesk® Softimage® 2013 3D character animation http://www.autodesk.com/3danimation and visual effects software delivers powerful new creative toolsets, a new high-fidelity interactive environment, and extended customizability. These new features help artists and technical directors working in visual effects http://www.autodesk.com/visualeffectssoftware, post production http://www.autodesk.com/postproductionsoftware, and 3D game development http://usa.autodesk.com/media-entertainment/games/ get more from the product. From the new CrowdFX simulation feature, to enhanced modeling, animation, physics, and selection tools, Softimage 2013 helps you create compelling content faster. 3D Character Rigging http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/item?siteID=123112id=18307345 Dynamic Simulation http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/item?siteID=123112id=18307927 ICE Softimage GigaCore http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/item?siteID=123112id=18306951 Pipeline Integration http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/item?siteID=123112id=18307164 Rendering Imaging http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/item?siteID=123112id=18307868 Character Facial Animation http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/item?siteID=123112id=18307811 Modeling Texturing http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/item?siteID=123112id=18307958 What started this thread (and what most people seem to be hung up on) is a very specific campaign with a very specific purpose. You need to understand that purpose because otherwise the discussion has no meaning. For example, if we run an upgrade program promoting the new features in a release that does NOT mean that those features are all that the product does. It just means that for the intended audience (product owners that you want to upgrade) that is the most relevant message. Of course it makes no sense to a newcomer interested in the overall capabilities of the product. I am going to stand by my original position that if the intent of the campaign is to get Maya and 3ds max users to upgrade to a Suite and start using Softimage and MotionBuilder and Mudbox than the most effective way to do that is to tell them what those products ADD to what they already have. The intent of the campaign is NOT to promote the overall capabilities of Softimage to a new user. Now we can also argue till we are blue in the face as to which campaign we should focus on, but that campaign was specifically chosen because (1) the strategy across all Autodesk industries is to promote Suites and we need to align to that strategy and (2) we have a business to run and our largest business opportunity for Suites is of course 3ds max and Maya users. I am no Don Quixote, and have no interest in fighting pointless battles. I still believe we are embarked on the right strategies to (1) promote our portfolio and (2) grow our business in the context of both market demographics and Autodesk strategy. So let us put this one to rest. The campaign does what it is meant to do and speculating about alternative campaigns, while academically interesting, is irrelevant to the goal of selling Suites. In terms of general awareness – we
Re: In case you missed it..
in defensive of the suites strategy, avid did market facerobot (still softimage underneath) to max and maya shops in hopes it would also convert more licenses. i worked at blur and this sort of happened, animators used facerobot and started to like the animation environment and so they convinced management to switch, even though tim hates it :) as alan mcshane mentioned, some of this marketing is reaching more people than your trying to target. this is on the internet people, its bound to be seen by more people than you intended it to! and in this way you ruin perception... what you might have done with the data is keep it to yourself and use it as a tool to improve how you market the products. s
Re: In case you missed it..
I find it kind of hilarious that the only reason any Softimage users want there to be a Softimage suite is so that they'll feel like they're being treated fairly. None of us actually wants to pay extra money for a bonus Maya or Max license. I'd love to see the Softimage diagram to go alongside the Maya/Max diagram. I think it would be something like this: The Area of Excellence Softimage The Area of Access to Cheap Labor Maya, fbx The Area of Access to Some Good 3rd Party Plugins Max The Area of Unfair Marketing The Area I'm mostly kidding of course, but I think there's also a nugget of truth. If Autodesk pushed Softimage as a standalone product and succeeded, good luck selling people suites of redundant products.
Re: In case you missed it..
haha :) but seriously, might convince some people of not looking to hard into Zbrush. It would be nice to get SI+Mudbox bundled together with a properly working send to button... dreaming
