On 8 July 2011 18:08, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
On Jul 8, 2011, at 2:57, Sam Couter s...@couter.id.au wrote:
Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote:
We've gone to insanely long lengths to make that the case, including getting
clarifications from Ordnance Survey, Nearmap and many others.
On 9 July 2011 02:10, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote:
Perhaps we're talking at cross purposes because most of the community I'm
familiar with, which is all of the EU and the US, consider government data a
nice starting point but mappers on the ground as generally much better. Is
the
Sorry for the way he is treating you Liz.
Liz is like the grandma of osm. She has been a tireless supporter, She spent
months helping in OSM kosovo and flossk. She dontated laptops, gps devices
and lots of love. I dont know if you follow that at all steve, but I am
shocked how you are speaking to
At the time that I stopped, that's right, there was no other aerial imagery.
I just checked again now and Bing actually seems pretty ok... Maybe I'll
start again sometime...but honestly, I'm not really in the mood lately.
Maybe after a steak dinner or two... :P
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 5:11 PM,
On 7/7/2011 9:37 PM, James Andrewartha wrote:
On 8 July 2011 11:26, SteveCst...@asklater.com wrote:
This reads like you disagree with taxation or death. I do too, but there's not
much I can do about it. The vast majority of people are happy with where we are
at and now it's down to people
Good to hear there is aerial now in your area, I hope you will continue
to improve the map.
Personally I've been adding lots of housenumbers lately. I find it weird
that it's not as boring as I think it should be.
Steve
On 7/7/2011 11:13 PM, waldo000...@gmail.com wrote:
At the time that I
Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote:
[ rubbish about Australians being led astray by some guy]
It's hard to fix that, however I am resourceful.
You're an immature brat who thinks shouting loudest and longest means
you win the argument. That's not resourcefulness.
It's impossible to carry on
Sam
Underlaying your attacks is the notion that I dismiss people who disagree with
me, or that I can't understand different points of view. I find that strange
given my rational responses to several disagreements on this list and outlaying
where I feel misunderstandings have come from. I have
Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote:
We've gone to insanely long lengths to make that the case, including getting
clarifications from Ordnance Survey, Nearmap and many others. As far as I'm
aware there are no remaining issues as to why you can't click 'accept'.
The solution to the problem
On Jul 8, 2011, at 2:57, Sam Couter s...@couter.id.au wrote:
Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote:
We've gone to insanely long lengths to make that the case, including getting
clarifications from Ordnance Survey, Nearmap and many others. As far as I'm
aware there are no remaining issues as
On Jul 8, 2011, at 3:10, Sam Couter s...@couter.id.au wrote:
SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
Sam
Underlaying your attacks is the notion that I dismiss people who disagree
with me, or that I can't understand different points of view. I find that
strange given my rational responses to
I like Andrew's message below as I am Interested in what others are doing
and why. So below is what effects the licence has had on me and I hope I
might encourage others to share what they will be doing. Hopefully this
might help us all make more informed decisions, knowing what Australians
plan
SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
I wouldn't say we chose it. We were told by legal that cc didn't work, so we
spent a lot of time evolving the odbl (originally started by cc folks) and
the CTs. It might look from that side of the planet that it was a hand of god
type decision, but that's
SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
No, John smith and friends are a separate issue, they troll many different
discussions.
Who are and friends? I only watch talk-au so if there's trolling going
on elsewhere I haven't seen it. What I have seen is you dismissing others
as being deliberately
I was quietly reading this list until I saw my name, so here's my reply
about what I plan to do.
I only map from my traces and therefore the change of license doesn't affect
me (does it?) so my plan is to keep mapping OSM. I'll keep checking
fosm.orgevery now and then but so far I can't reach it.
On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 2:24 AM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote:
I mean throw away the efforts of all the licensing work we've done because
one guy doesn't like technical detail X or has moral objection Y. That is,
that we have spent many man years on this and there is no way to make
On 7/8/2011 5:04 AM, Sam Couter wrote:
SteveCst...@asklater.com wrote:
No, John smith and friends are a separate issue, they troll many different
discussions.
Who are and friends? I only watch talk-au so if there's trolling going
on elsewhere I haven't seen it. What I have seen is you
On 7/8/2011 4:28 AM, Sam Couter wrote:
Also, your frame of reference is with OSM up and running and having these kinds
of relationships. When I started OSM we had no data at all and nobody wanted to
give us data under any license, let alone cc. So those of us who climbed the
mountain to get
Anthony
The reason we have a hostile relationship is because of all your
spamming and trolling. You were kicked from the legal list, the only
person I'm aware of to have managed that.
I suspect the real reason you want a nice relationship is funding and
other benefits we've worked hard for,
On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 2:19 PM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote:
Anthony
The reason we have a hostile relationship is because of all your spamming
and trolling.
I'm not FOSM, so that's rather irrelevant, even if it were true.
I also thought that relationship had been mended, as the
On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 3:27 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote:
On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 2:19 PM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote:
At this point really the positive gestures need to come from you, for
example helping us switch so we can all (including FOSM) move on.
If the only way you are
On Fri, 08 Jul 2011 11:05:28 -0700
Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote:
If you go look at talk@ you'll find a lot of history from the people
who now inhabit this list. In fact, several of them have either been
banned or moderated.
big snip of trash
I've known them for a lot longer than
On 7/8/2011 2:01 PM, Elizabeth Dodd wrote:
On Fri, 08 Jul 2011 11:05:28 -0700
Steve Coastst...@asklater.com wrote:
If you go look at talk@ you'll find a lot of history from the people
who now inhabit this list. In fact, several of them have either been
banned or moderated.
big snip of
Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote:
Well the eternal right thing applies to CC and most other licenses, so I
There's a difference between an irrevocable licence and an irrevocable,
all-encompassing rights grant. CC and most other open licences are the
former, OSM's CTs require the latter.
Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote:
Perhaps we're talking at cross purposes because most of the community I'm
familiar with, which is all of the EU and the US, consider government data a
nice starting point but mappers on the ground as generally much better. Is the
perception in Australia
Hello,
Firstly let me say that I have no alliances with either side of the debate. I
have been trying to sit on the fence throughout the entire process.
Until the recent Nearmap announcement I was unable to legally accept the
change; Now I can.
I agree with those who state that the license
snip A whole lot of angst /snip
I don't often email the list, but I've been kicking around OSM for maybe
four years, and done a bit of mapping here and there, as well as
generating the odd Garmin map for people to use. This email is a bit
rambly, so I apologise in advance.
To be honest, I'm
Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote:
Wow, you infer a lot from my four word sentence. Do you have any
evidence to back any of it up?
You mean other than the message you affirmed pretty strongly?
Maybe it's a difference between Australian English and British English,
but I'd think those four
Thanks for the responses. So it seems there will be some fragmentation. Some
are moving to fosm, some are moving elsewhere, some are staying with OSM,
some have stopped actively contributing and are on hold... I wrote this mail
for two reasons, to get a sense of where local contributors stand, but
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 1:15 PM, Andrew Harvey andrew.harv...@gmail.comwrote:
The more who contribute directly to fosm rather than OSM, the less the work
there will be for fosmers dealing with duplicated data resulting from
merges. If it becomes a big problem, I think we should be able to do
FOSMs not going anywhere for some simple reasons.
The people running it are ineffective, the data will be incompatible
when OSM switches, fosm doesn't have any of the agreements to derive
data from aerial imagery. I could go on, but those are the big ticket items.
Everyone should be aware of
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 3:09 PM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote:
FOSMs not going anywhere for some simple reasons.
The people running it are ineffective, the data will be incompatible when
OSM switches, fosm doesn't have any of the agreements to derive data from
aerial imagery. I could
On 7/7/2011 7:15 AM, 80n wrote:
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 3:09 PM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com
mailto:st...@asklater.com wrote:
FOSMs not going anywhere for some simple reasons.
The people running it are ineffective, the data will be
incompatible when OSM switches, fosm doesn't
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 4:25 PM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote:
You've been very successful at perverting certain sections of the
community, Australia being a good example ...
Steve, please don't underestimate the ability of Australia to filter
bullshit.
I just want to:
1) be able to
On 7/7/2011 7:40 AM, waldo000...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 4:25 PM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com
mailto:st...@asklater.com wrote:
You've been very successful at perverting certain sections of the
community, Australia being a good example ...
Steve, please don't
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 4:55 PM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote:
...I believe we should spend energy enlightening aerial providers (or wait
for them to catch up)
Yup, I'm waiting... (I just wanted to point out why I have stopped
contributing - it's not in protest, and not because I've
On 7 July 2011 15:09, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote:
FOSMs not going anywhere for some simple reasons.
The people running it are ineffective, the data will be incompatible when
OSM switches, fosm doesn't have any of the agreements to derive data from
aerial imagery. I could go on, but
Why did you stop then? Is there no aerial imagery where you are other
than nearmap?
On 7/7/2011 8:03 AM, waldo000...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 4:55 PM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com
mailto:st...@asklater.com wrote:
...I believe we should spend energy enlightening aerial
On 8 July 2011 00:55, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote:
We've gone to insanely long lengths to make that the case, including getting
clarifications from Ordnance Survey, Nearmap and many others. As far as I'm
aware there are no remaining issues as to why you can't click 'accept'.
He said
On 08/07/11 00:01, 80n wrote:
The probability of collisions is quite small in practice. We are able
to automatically sync all OSM updates into fosm.org http://fosm.org in
near real time. Consequenly fosm.org http://fosm.org already has more
content than OSM and the gap will continue to widen.
On 8 July 2011 06:46, John Henderson snow...@gmx.com wrote:
What particularly turns me off fosm.org is that I am unable to see a map
when I go to the site. Using Firefox on Linux, I click on Maps and get
FOSM based tiles are being uploaded to archive.org:
On Thu, 2011-07-07 at 08:11 -0700, Steve Coast wrote:
Why did you stop then? Is there no aerial imagery where you are other
than nearmap?
Theres this thing in Australia called loyalty. You seem to understand
very little about Australian culture. Its almost the height of rudeness
after someone
] Active Australian OSM contributors in light of
CT/license changes
On 8 July 2011 06:46, John Henderson snow...@gmx.com wrote:
What particularly turns me off fosm.org is that I am unable to see
a map
when I go to the site. Using Firefox on Linux, I click on Maps
and get
FOSM based
I wonder if people would mind keeping their unconstructive comments for some
other medium than this list.
On Jul 8, 2011 9:24 AM, David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au wrote:
Theres this thing in Australia called loyalty. You seem to understand
very little about Australian culture. Its almost
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 9:29 PM, Andrew Harvey andrew.harv...@gmail.com wrote:
Since the ban on all contributors who didn't sign the CTs, and ban on all
new contributors from using NearMap and other CC-BY/CC-BY-SA sources, I'm no
longer actively contributing to the OSM database. Instead I am now
On 7 July 2011 22:55, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote:
On 7/7/2011 7:40 AM, waldo000...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 4:25 PM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote:
You've been very successful at perverting certain sections of the
community, Australia being a good example ...
On 6 July 2011 21:29, Andrew Harvey andrew.harv...@gmail.com wrote:
and also people who ticked the CTs who have used CC-BY/CC-BY-SA sources in
the past who may want to keep this data and continue using these sources in
the future.
Indeed. Number 9 on the list is
This reads like you disagree with taxation or death. I do too, but there's not
much I can do about it. The vast majority of people are happy with where we are
at and now it's down to people holding out because of a comma in the wrong
place or a moral objection to various aspects of intellectual
On 8 July 2011 13:26, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
The vast majority of people are happy with where we are at
What about the 50 odd percent of people that haven't responded?
I don't see how it's reasonable to throw everything away for one guy who
doesn't like his countries laws.
So
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 11:26 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
I don't see how it's reasonable to throw everything away for one guy who
doesn't like his
countries laws.
There are more countries without sui generis database rights laws than with it.
On 8 July 2011 13:26, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
The vast majority of people are happy with where we are at
From what I've read on ML posts, and from what was reported about the last
SotM meeting (I wasn't there), the vast majority of people don't care and
would be happy with the status
I would phrase it that the vast majority aren't lawyers and don't want to
become one, therefore don't know the implications of the problems with cc. That
is all this is predicated upon, lawyers say that cc doesn't work for data. If
they didn't say that then we would never have gone down this
What you say mike is mostly reasonable apart from the control bit. It's a
democratically elected nonprofit, so it's hard to cast that as a dictatorship.
Steve
stevecoast.com
On Jul 7, 2011, at 20:47, Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com wrote:
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Chris
On 8 July 2011 13:54, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
I would phrase it that the vast majority aren't lawyers and don't want to
become one, therefore don't know the implications of the problems with cc.
It's a false assumption, the only way it would be geo factual data is
if you copied 1:1
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 11:54 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
I would phrase it that the vast majority aren't lawyers and don't want to
become one, therefore don't know the implications of the problems with cc.
That is all this is predicated upon, lawyers say that cc doesn't work for
data.
Actually, the license process has been known about for a long, long time so
it's not this new turnaround you cast it as. In addition, everyone else (bing,
ordnance survey...) has worked with us very reasonably. In fact it's hard to
say near map have been unreasonable, just that they were not
The control seems to be good, but I have no personal say in it.
The new license maybe good, but I dont want to accept it if I dont
understand it 100%.
With the new distributed system we are building I can :
1. Host my own maps without begging or asking for permissions.
2. Commit my own code to
On 8 July 2011 14:06, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
Actually, the license process has been known about for a long, long time so
it's not this new turnaround you cast it as. In addition, everyone else
(bing, ordnance survey...) has worked with us very reasonably. In fact it's
hard to say
On 8 July 2011 14:06, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
As for this 'uk mob' thing, that too is unreasonable. As a democratically
elected board, we have members from many countries and you are invited to get
involved or run for election.
Is it true that you had to do a lot of rule fiddling so
On 8 July 2011 11:26, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
This reads like you disagree with taxation or death. I do too, but there's
not much I can do about it. The vast majority of people are happy with where
we are at and now it's down to people holding out because of a comma in the
wrong
On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 12:37 AM, James Andrewartha
tr...@student.uwa.edu.au wrote:
On 8 July 2011 11:26, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
This reads like you disagree with taxation or death. I do too, but there's
not much I can do about it. The vast majority of people are happy with where
we
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 9:29 PM, Andrew Harvey andrew.harv...@gmail.comwrote:
Since the ban on all contributors who didn't sign the CTs, and ban on all
new contributors from using NearMap and other CC-BY/CC-BY-SA sources, I'm no
longer actively contributing to the OSM database. Instead I am now
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 1:29 PM, Andrew Harvey andrew.harv...@gmail.comwrote:
Are you going to stop contributing data altogether? Or are you putting you
efforts on hold at the moment.
My efforts are on hold at the moment. Still disillusioned...
___
Hi Andrew,
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 21:29, Andrew Harvey andrew.harv...@gmail.com wrote:
snip
Are you moving to the fosm db? If so, great! Less problems with trying to
merge your data into fosm, and we can all get back to mapping. Do you have
any concerns over the switch?
I have concerns. The
This is exactly right.
On 7/6/2011 5:35 AM, Chris Barham wrote:
Hi Andrew,
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 21:29, Andrew Harveyandrew.harv...@gmail.com wrote:
snip
Are you moving to the fosm db? If so, great! Less problems with trying to
merge your data into fosm, and we can all get back to mapping.
On 6 July 2011 22:35, Chris Barham cbar...@pobox.com wrote:
I'd like to think all this rather dull licence bickering will play out
and OSM will continue and strengthen. It's sad that people with
agendas are talking up the 'possible' deletion of data, and rushing
off to fork. That energy
On 06/07/2011, at 9:29 PM, Andrew Harvey wrote:
because any CC-BY-SA derived data you add may be removed if OSM
abandons CC-BY-SA at some point in the future (or may even be
conflicting with your agreed CTs now...).
How could I add CC-BY-SA derived data if I use GPS traces, audio
On 7 July 2011 07:54, Mark Pulley mrpul...@lizzy.com.au wrote:
How could I add CC-BY-SA derived data if I use GPS traces, audio recordings
of names, or imagery like Yahoo or Bing? The only way I could see this
happening would be if I was to deliberately go out of my way to add a
Actually it's
Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote:
This is exactly right.
It's only exactly right if you don't have a problem with the new
licence, with the process by which it was implemented, with mass
deletion of data, with the proliferation of incompatible open licences,
with irrevocable and eternal
On 7/6/2011 3:20 PM, Sam Couter wrote:
Steve Coastst...@asklater.com wrote:
This is exactly right.
It's only exactly right if you don't have a problem with the new
licence, with the process by which it was implemented, with mass
deletion of data, with the proliferation of incompatible open
As others have said..
1) Ive moved to fosm since the lockout
2) Im feeling pretty disillusioned at the whole thing, and seriously
wonder if its not worth just paying 5 bucks for a map that I cannot
share, rather than deal with the politics of a staggered mapping project
3) Ive made a couple of
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