The BMW UUC Digest 
Volume 2 : Issue 109 : "text" Format

Messages in this Issue:
  Re: Misguided  R&D:  Blind Spot Detector <non-BMW>
  Re: Misguided  R&D:  Blind Spot Detector <non-BMW>
  Re: Misguided  R&D:  Blind Spot Detector <non-BMW>
  95 540i/6spd for sale
  E34 Parts Needed
  Re: 95 540i/6spd for sale
  Re: <Misc>buying a used car with a lien?
  Re: E30 ball joints
  Re: Paucity of BMW computer tuning
  Re: Paucity of BMW computer tuning
  Re: Misguided  R&D:  Blind Spot Detector <non-BMW>
  Re: Misguided  R&D:  Blind Spot Detector <non-BMW>
  e36 Stock sunglass holder wanted
  Re: Cat destruction

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 23:12:10 -0800
From: "Bora Akyol (BMW)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Misguided  R&D:  Blind Spot Detector <non-BMW>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Seeing that the average american drives like their blind and
deaf (maybe because they are talking on a cell phone),
I think anything that can help improve the reception
of missing concentration or focus is a benefit.

I am all for lights in the mirrors as well as
small water sprayer for careless drivers.

As far as mirrors are concerned, Ford F250/350 excursion
towing mirrors with the convex mirror at the very bottom
has to be one of the best mirrors out there when
adjusted properly. I wish they would add this type of
a setup to every car.

As far as BMW content, my E30 M3 has euro mirrors with two panels
in place of the single panel mirror. Hard to describe
in an email but essentially 3/4s of the way outward one panel ends
and a smaller convex panel starts. Neat.



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:28:17 -0500
From: "Robinson, Lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Misguided  R&D:  Blind Spot Detector <non-BMW>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Bora,

You forget dumb.....lots & lots of dumb.

Lee->pretty well convinced that most people don't use their turn signals
because they lack the basic intelligence to figure out how to work the
little stalk

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Bora Akyol (BMW)
> Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 02:12
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [UUC] Misguided R&D: Blind Spot Detector <non-BMW>
> 
> 
> Seeing that the average american drives like their blind and
> deaf (maybe because they are talking on a cell phone),
> I think anything that can help improve the reception
> of missing concentration or focus is a benefit.
> 
> I am all for lights in the mirrors as well as
> small water sprayer for careless drivers.
> 
> As far as mirrors are concerned, Ford F250/350 excursion
> towing mirrors with the convex mirror at the very bottom
> has to be one of the best mirrors out there when
> adjusted properly. I wish they would add this type of
> a setup to every car.
> 
> As far as BMW content, my E30 M3 has euro mirrors with two panels
> in place of the single panel mirror. Hard to describe
> in an email but essentially 3/4s of the way outward one panel ends
> and a smaller convex panel starts. Neat.
> 
> 
> Search the 
> ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> ______________________________________________________________
> ____________
> In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of 
> the BMW CCA.
> 
> UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate
> Short Shifter - accept no substitutes!
> 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com
> 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:00:22 -0500
From: "Robinson, Lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Misguided  R&D:  Blind Spot Detector <non-BMW>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Like the adage:  "make it more idiot-proof & people will become bigger
idiots."

I see this at work all the time.  The more you do to help make someone's job
safer, easier, more efficient, the less they use their brain.

Consumers seem to want more & features that take having to drive out of
driving.  It would be a lot less stressful if they'd just take the bus.  Oh,
wait, there'd have to be busses to take.

Lee->would take the bus if there was one.....

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Brad Couvillon
> Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 10:42
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [UUC] Misguided R&D: Blind Spot Detector <non-BMW>
> 
> 
> What's the problem, again, with just looking over your
> shoulder before you change lanes?
> 
> It kills me how car companies spend so much time and
> effort on electronic gimmicks that're just going to
> have more and more problems as time goes by.
> 
> Brad "Shifty" Couvillon
> '87 528e <-- new timing belt, tensioner, water pump,
> vacuum hoses, intake gaskets, exhaust gaskets, fuel
> lines, flushed cooling system
> 
> 
> 
> --- Scott & Charlotte Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > An article from our local newspaper is attributed to
> > Jim Mateja of the
> > Chicago Tribune.  It says that Ford is developing a
> > blind spot
> > detector using "magneto-resistive sensors" - metal
> > detectors.  Sensors
> > have been mounted under the corners of the rear
> > bumper of their Ford
> > Explorer test bed.  Here's why it won't work:
> > 
> > "When turn signals are engaged, the sensors in the
> > bumper determine
> > whether there is a vehicle next to you in the right
> > or left lane."
> > And, "If a vehicle is there and in the blind spot, a
> > turn-signal
> > indicator in the sideview mirror turns from orange
> > to red as an
> > initial warning."
> > 
> > First of all, by my own unofficial estimate, fewer
> > than 15% of the
> > driving population uses their turn signals.  Second,
> > if the sideview
> > mirrors were properly adjusted and the driver were
> > using them, then
> > they would see the car in the "blind" spot in the
> > mirror, and they
> > wouldn't need a colored flashing indicator to tell
> > them that a car was
> > there.
> > 
> > More often than not, drivers change lanes or
> > initiate turns without
> > signalling or looking at the other lane.  So this
> > technology is wasted
> > on the U.S. driving public.
> > 
> > 'Nuff said.  Not that this won't start a heated
> > discussion about my
> > statistical methods or something.
> > 
> > Scott Miller
> > GGC BMW CCA
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> Search the 
> ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> ______________________________________________________________
> ____________
> In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of 
> the BMW CCA.
> 
> UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate
> Short Shifter - accept no substitutes!
> 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com
> 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:44:37 -0500
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: 95 540i/6spd for sale
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

95 540i/6 spd.  Oxford green w/ parchment int., 106k miles.  EAT chip, M steering 
wheel, UUC short shift kit w/ bushings and chromo Rob Knob, UUC tranny mount, M5 spec 
bilstein sport shocks, power heated recaro's, M-tech suspension, RD strut brace, 18" M 
Parallel's w/ Kumho MX's, stock rims w/ Pirelli snows, Business Class radio, 
shadowline trim (blackout tape).  asking $16,500.  Kevin

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:05:42 -0500
From: "Eric Nghiem" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: E34 Parts Needed
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Hi,

Not sure if any of you are parting out an E34, but I am looking for a the
following parts to put back together my 89 525i
-Lower door trim for driver side
-Both front fender trim pieces(door ding trim)
-Rear passenger side quarter panel trim piece
-Rear Sway Bar Links
-Floor Mats(tan or black works for me)

I am also lookign for a set of lowering springs and struts.

Email me.  I am located in West SPringfield, MA



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:57:33 -0600
From: "Malcolm Reitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 95 540i/6spd for sale
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Kevin,

Sounds like a nice car. A few questions you are sure to get from others
as well:

1) Where is the car?
2) Has it had the engine block replaced?
3) Pics?

Malcolm
'88 M5
'98 328i

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 7:45 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [UUC] 95 540i/6spd for sale

95 540i/6 spd.  Oxford green w/ parchment int., 106k miles.  EAT chip, M
steering wheel, UUC short shift kit w/ bushings and chromo Rob Knob, UUC
tranny mount, M5 spec bilstein sport shocks, power heated recaro's,
M-tech suspension, RD strut brace, 18" M Parallel's w/ Kumho MX's, stock
rims w/ Pirelli snows, Business Class radio, shadowline trim (blackout
tape).  asking $16,500.  Kevin




------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:39:53 -0500
From: "Robinson, Lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: <Misc>buying a used car with a lien?
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Marc,

I'm in the process of trying to sell my Saab which is financed through
E-Loan.  Basically, in order to get the title, I have to take a check & cash
it from the buyer.  Then send a final check in the payoff amount to e-loan.
After 10 days (presumably to verify funds), they send the title to me via
snail mail.

If the previous owner has not financed through a local bank (which will be
likely if they have financed the car through the dealer), I would say you
might have to wait for 2 weeks or so to get the title.

Lee

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Marc Plante
> Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 11:32
> To: Bmwuucdigest
> Subject: [UUC] <Misc>buying a used car with a lien?
> 
> 
> Stupid (?!) question for the group.  Looking at a used car 
> that has a lien
> on it.  What is the sequence of buying a car like this?
> 
> - Pay lien holder directly for buyout?
> - Pay seller difference?
> - Expect seller to buyout car before purchase?
> 
> Just wondering about the logistics.
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Marc Plante
> E36 325i, 220k
> Vienna, VA
> 
> 
> 
> Search the 
> ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> ______________________________________________________________
> ____________
> In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of 
> the BMW CCA.
> 
> UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate
> Short Shifter - accept no substitutes!
> 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com
> 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:47:51 -0500
From: "Robinson, Lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: E30 ball joints
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

They should hold up fine, there might just be some slop in the steering.

In my experience, there is about 900 places on an E30 a clunk can come from,
so you might want to be more specific.......

Usually, the weight transfer clunk is a loose sway bar link.

Lee

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 18:43
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [UUC] E30 ball joints
> 
> 
> How bad can these get and still be driven for oh, lets say 100 miles?
> 
> Just today I picked up a clunk when stopping at lights. No 
> clunk on brake
> application, only when the car settled after stopping.
> 
> Since I was swapping out the snows today I was able to do a little
> inspection. Driver side lower ball joint has some front to 
> back play (as in
> about 1/8 inch. I can see the joint shift and the boot move).
> 
> I am replacing the control arms this weekend, but I still 
> have to get back
> and forth to work for the week (4 miles each way). Think it 
> will hold up or
> is it about to fall apart?
> 
> The strange thing is that the steering is stable even at 
> highway speeds. No
> vibration or wandering...
> 
> -- Joe, new to ball joints that clunk...
> 
> --
> Joseph M. Krzeszewski                     Network Operations
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]                      Jack of All Trades, 
> Master of None... Yet
> 
> Search the 
> ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> ______________________________________________________________
> ____________
> In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of 
> the BMW CCA.
> 
> UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate
> Short Shifter - accept no substitutes!
> 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com
> 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:56:55 -0500
From: "Sean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Paucity of BMW computer tuning
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

I've got one and its definetely a cool gadget...  Ont the fly map switching
etc is one of the many cool features of the access port....  A bargain for
the money.  Simple ECU Upgrade + Full turbo back exhuast is good for 60+
AWHP.  Certainly a bargain for less than 2k total....

Sean Smith
Raleigh, NC

00 M5 Daily Driver
95 M3 Track Car
93 MX-6 Backup Track Car and Beater
04 WRX Wagon


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andre Yew
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 2:35 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [UUC] Paucity of BMW computer tuning


This is almost an OT whine (sorry!), but a friend with a Subaru WRX is
getting a Cobb Tuning AccessPort, a handy little computer for remapping and
reconfiguring the WRX's ECU.  The flexibility and speed of this thing
compared to the best stuff we have in the BMW world (Conforti's Shark) is
rather dramatic.  Here's some info on it: 

http://cobbtuning.com/wrx/accessport.html

Various mappings available are: 

http://www.cobbtuning.com/wrx/accessport/

And to rub salt in the wound, it can even be moved from car to car.

Anyway, living in California, I have no intention of ever using any of these
devices, but it still impresses me that their tuning is so far ahead of
ours, and I'm wondering why that is.  I wonder if it's reflective of the
markets of each marque.

--Andre

Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]


__________________________________________________________________________
In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA.

UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate Short
Shifter - accept no substitutes! 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:02:29 -0500
From: "Sean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Paucity of BMW computer tuning
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

With the access port you get +30 AWHP with no other mods other than ECU.
Totally undetectable by the smog check team and it can be converted back to
stock nearly instantly.....  The increase in drivability is amazing.  Even
more dramatic than ECU+instake+Euro HFM on my 95 M3...


Sean

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 2:09 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [UUC] Paucity of BMW computer tuning


But remember, the smog check laws are not designed to make the air clean,
they are designed for politicians to get support and recognition, not to
mention campaign contributions.

Certainly, if there is no adverse affect on pollution, making such mods is
fine with me (not that my opinion matters), if the owner is willing to go
through the time and expense of putting it back to stock every 2 years to
pass the visual part of the smog check.

Scott Miller
GGC BMW CCA

>Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 20:12:23 -0500
>From: "Gary Derian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: Paucity of BMW computer tuning
>Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>Even if you can, its still illegal, not that anyone would find out. 
>Gary Derian
>
>>
>> >Anyway, living in California, I have no intention of ever using any 
>> >of these devices,
>>
>> You shouldn't let that deter you.  With proper electronic tuning a
>modified vehicle can be made to run cleaner and with better 
>driveability than stock.


Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]


__________________________________________________________________________
In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA.

UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate Short
Shifter - accept no substitutes! 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:42:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Brad Couvillon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Misguided  R&D:  Blind Spot Detector <non-BMW>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

What's the problem, again, with just looking over your
shoulder before you change lanes?

It kills me how car companies spend so much time and
effort on electronic gimmicks that're just going to
have more and more problems as time goes by.

Brad "Shifty" Couvillon
'87 528e <-- new timing belt, tensioner, water pump,
vacuum hoses, intake gaskets, exhaust gaskets, fuel
lines, flushed cooling system



--- Scott & Charlotte Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> An article from our local newspaper is attributed to
> Jim Mateja of the
> Chicago Tribune.  It says that Ford is developing a
> blind spot
> detector using "magneto-resistive sensors" - metal
> detectors.  Sensors
> have been mounted under the corners of the rear
> bumper of their Ford
> Explorer test bed.  Here's why it won't work:
> 
> "When turn signals are engaged, the sensors in the
> bumper determine
> whether there is a vehicle next to you in the right
> or left lane."
> And, "If a vehicle is there and in the blind spot, a
> turn-signal
> indicator in the sideview mirror turns from orange
> to red as an
> initial warning."
> 
> First of all, by my own unofficial estimate, fewer
> than 15% of the
> driving population uses their turn signals.  Second,
> if the sideview
> mirrors were properly adjusted and the driver were
> using them, then
> they would see the car in the "blind" spot in the
> mirror, and they
> wouldn't need a colored flashing indicator to tell
> them that a car was
> there.
> 
> More often than not, drivers change lanes or
> initiate turns without
> signalling or looking at the other lane.  So this
> technology is wasted
> on the U.S. driving public.
> 
> 'Nuff said.  Not that this won't start a heated
> discussion about my
> statistical methods or something.
> 
> Scott Miller
> GGC BMW CCA

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:21:55 -0800
From: "Bora Akyol (BMW)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Misguided  R&D:  Blind Spot Detector <non-BMW>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

The problem is that some people don't.
So if this device helps those people
that routinely avoid looking
over their shoulders, I think that
is great.

Bora


> From: Brad Couvillon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:42:09 -0800 (PST)
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [UUC]  Misguided  R&D:  Blind Spot Detector <non-BMW>
> 
> What's the problem, again, with just looking over your
> shoulder before you change lanes?
> 
> It kills me how car companies spend so much time and
> effort on electronic gimmicks that're just going to
> have more and more problems as time goes by.
> 
> Brad "Shifty" Couvillon
> '87 528e <-- new timing belt, tensioner, water pump,
> vacuum hoses, intake gaskets, exhaust gaskets, fuel
> lines, flushed cooling system
> 
> 
> 
> --- Scott & Charlotte Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>> An article from our local newspaper is attributed to
>> Jim Mateja of the
>> Chicago Tribune.  It says that Ford is developing a
>> blind spot
>> detector using "magneto-resistive sensors" - metal
>> detectors.  Sensors
>> have been mounted under the corners of the rear
>> bumper of their Ford
>> Explorer test bed.  Here's why it won't work:
>> 
>> "When turn signals are engaged, the sensors in the
>> bumper determine
>> whether there is a vehicle next to you in the right
>> or left lane."
>> And, "If a vehicle is there and in the blind spot, a
>> turn-signal
>> indicator in the sideview mirror turns from orange
>> to red as an
>> initial warning."
>> 
>> First of all, by my own unofficial estimate, fewer
>> than 15% of the
>> driving population uses their turn signals.  Second,
>> if the sideview
>> mirrors were properly adjusted and the driver were
>> using them, then
>> they would see the car in the "blind" spot in the
>> mirror, and they
>> wouldn't need a colored flashing indicator to tell
>> them that a car was
>> there.
>> 
>> More often than not, drivers change lanes or
>> initiate turns without
>> signalling or looking at the other lane.  So this
>> technology is wasted
>> on the U.S. driving public.
>> 
>> 'Nuff said.  Not that this won't start a heated
>> discussion about my
>> statistical methods or something.
>> 
>> Scott Miller
>> GGC BMW CCA
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________________________________
> In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA.
> 
> UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate
> Short Shifter - accept no substitutes!
> 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:55:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Mark Andy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: e36 Stock sunglass holder wanted
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Howdy,

I'm looking for a stock e36 sunglass holder thingy...  Anyone have one 
laying around that they don't want?  Needs to be in good shape & black 
(Perhaps they all were?)

Mostly I'm hoping someone has one in a box from a guage install or a parts 
car that they want a couple bucks for.

Thanks!

Mark


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:17:55 -0800
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Cat destruction
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

OK here's the scenario, put new plugs and wires on the E32 but one of the
wires came undone. Car began to miss, immediately headed home but right
side exhaust was red hot (naturally). Span of time maybe 2 to 3 minutes. Is
this enough to ruin the cat? Gary?

-Kevin




------------------------------

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