The BMW UUC Digest Volume 2 : Issue 473 : "text" Format Messages in this Issue: <E34> M50 - still no start Re: [bmw] <E34> M50TU - Finding ECT? Finding ECT? Never mind - found it in the Bentley book. Re: <E34> M50 - still no start Re: <E34> M50 - still no start Re: <E34> M50 - still no start Spring compressors? Re: Spring compressors? Re: Spring compressors? Re: <E34> M50 - still no start Re: <E34> M50 - still no start E36 M3 (Looking for resources, info) Re: E36 M3 (Looking for resources, info) Re: BMWs in Tahoe Re: <E34> M50 No Start - Gooped up spark plug insulators ?!?
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:10:35 -0500 From: "Karl Zemlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: <E34> M50 - still no start Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Plugs were pulled and cleaned (the business end looked fairly good anyway - just a little wet on a couple of them). New crankshaft position sensor - no change. Cranks, fires some, won't run. Was going to check the ECT, but I can't ID the thing. Where is it on an M50TU engine? Going back out to poke around. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:22:49 -0500 From: "Karl Zemlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [bmw] <E34> M50TU - Finding ECT? Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> OK - I spotted a couple of sensors going into the block behind the oil filter canister. The one nearest the filter (front) has a blue tag on the cable - cannot see any identifying features on the sensor just to the rear of that one. Am I getting warmer? Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:31:09 -0500 From: "Karl Zemlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Finding ECT? Never mind - found it in the Bentley book. Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sorry 'bout that. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:37:41 -0500 From: "Karl Zemlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: <E34> M50 - still no start Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Accelerator position seems to have no effect. The car won't run at all - but it does fire some when cranking. -----Original Message----- From: Eric A. Giles [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 4:23 PM To: [email protected] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [UUC] <E34> M50 - still no start Excuse my ignorance on this as I just started reading this thread and do not know all of what has happened... Will the car run at all if you keep your foot on the accelerator, but die as soon as you let off? Once again, pardon me if this has already been mentioned. Eric Giles '97 M3/4 '90 M3 > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Karl Zemlin > Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 3:11 PM > To: [email protected]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [UUC] <E34> M50 - still no start > > Plugs were pulled and cleaned (the business end looked fairly good > anyway - just a little wet on a couple of them). New crankshaft > position sensor - no change. > > Cranks, fires some, won't run. > > Was going to check the ECT, but I can't ID the thing. Where is it on > an M50TU engine? > > Going back out to poke around. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:54:58 -0600 From: Jenny Morgan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Karl Zemlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, UUC Digest <[email protected]> Subject: Re: <E34> M50 - still no start Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> This is a common issue, and I have seen dozens of them do this. The classic description is like you offer... but it should be noted that an engine that is suffering from what I am going to describe has a sound to it similar to an engine with no compression... Therfore, I cannot be absolutely sure this is what's going on with yours since I cannot hear it. FRESH plugs... F7dc... the platins suck, but if that's all you have go ahead and use them. The key here is FRESH plugs.. The car is "flooded"... the quotes indicate not in the traditional sense. Remove the plugs... Remove the fuel pump fuse... remove the MAIN motronic relay... (you need to be absolutely insure there is no spark or fuel for the next step, or there could be a nasty fire) Crank the engine over for 4-7 seconds or so... (this will clear the cylinders of any/all fuel residue) Install FRESH plugs. reconnect relays, fuses, coils... Now, this is the annoying part... What has happened is that the lifters are not allowing the valves to completely open/close... therefore, no fire,,, What you are going to do is hook up a second battery in the traditional way to help with reserve cranking energy, and crank the piss out of the engine until it starts... The extended cranking helps to "pump up " the lifters.... It will make fitted attempts at starting, cough... fool you a few times into thinking it will start and then die some... But keep cranking! the engine will "tell" you when it is going to really start by it behaviour and sound. DO NOT give any throttle input until you have cranked a good 15-20 seconds and then only a tad... keep cranking, keep cranking, keep cranking. In extreme cases, I have had to crank as much as 1 minute and open the throttle almost all the way... BUT do not go much beyond that without allowing the starter to cool down some... The more you do it the longer the cooling periods will need to be. Sounds abusive, and it is. Takes a toll on the starter's longevity, but assuming all the sensors, etc are OK, it will start, run like shit 'til it warms a bit and then be fine... Lesson learned... NEVER EVER run an M50 for just a few moments, ESPECIALLY when cold. If it still doesn't start, then go through diagnostics of all the injection stuff. Good luck, Jenny Morgan On Dec 30, 2004, at 4:32 PM, Karl Zemlin wrote: > I don't think the car was driven only a short distance when parked. > > The temp was -5F when it first failed to start - it is now over 50F. > > Oil is Mobil 1 15-50 > > The plugs are Platinum +4 with about 25K miles on them. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jenny Morgan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 5:27 PM > To: Karl Zemlin > Subject: Re: [UUC] <E34> M50 - still no start > > Did you happen to drive this car 20-50 feet (running it for only a few > moments to do so) and then turn it off? > > What is the ambient temperature where the car is located? > > What weight oil do you have in the engine? > > How old are the plugs? > > Jenny Morgan > > > On Dec 30, 2004, at 3:37 PM, Karl Zemlin wrote: > >> Accelerator position seems to have no effect. >> The car won't run at all - but it does fire some when cranking. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Eric A. Giles [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 4:23 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Subject: RE: [UUC] <E34> M50 - still no start >> >> Excuse my ignorance on this as I just started reading this thread and >> do not know all of what has happened... >> >> Will the car run at all if you keep your foot on the accelerator, but >> die as soon as you let off? >> >> Once again, pardon me if this has already been mentioned. >> >> Eric Giles >> '97 M3/4 >> '90 M3 >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Karl Zemlin >>> Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 3:11 PM >>> To: [email protected]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> Subject: [UUC] <E34> M50 - still no start >>> >>> Plugs were pulled and cleaned (the business end looked fairly good >>> anyway - just a little wet on a couple of them). New crankshaft >>> position sensor - no change. >>> >>> Cranks, fires some, won't run. >>> >>> Was going to check the ECT, but I can't ID the thing. Where is it on >>> an M50TU engine? >>> >>> Going back out to poke around. >> >> >> >> >> Search the >> ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] >> >> >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> _ >> ___ >> In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW >> CCA. >> >> UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate >> Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! >> 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:33:10 -0500 From: "Karl Zemlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: <E34> M50 - still no start Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Jenny wins the puzzler! I was going to hold off on going through her detailed instructions until tomorrow. She mentioned she couldn't be sure of her diagnosis without hearing the car - and since I run a recording business on the side that was fairly easy to rectify. I setup a pair of cheapo mics in the driveway and recorded the car - but in the process of recording, the bugger started. Since I went to the trouble to record the car, here's the results for anyone who's interested. It's an MP3 file about 1MB in size. http://www.cheap-tracks.com/mp3/zemlin_cranky.mp3 Thanks, Jenny. I'll remember you forever - at least the part where you wrote "NEVER EVER run an M50 for just a few moments ..." -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jenny Morgan Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 5:55 PM To: Karl Zemlin; UUC Digest Subject: Re: [UUC] <E34> M50 - still no start This is a common issue, and I have seen dozens of them do this. The classic description is like you offer... but it should be noted that an engine that is suffering from what I am going to describe has a sound to it similar to an engine with no compression... Therfore, I cannot be absolutely sure this is what's going on with yours since I cannot hear it. FRESH plugs... F7dc... the platins suck, but if that's all you have go ahead and use them. The key here is FRESH plugs.. The car is "flooded"... the quotes indicate not in the traditional sense. Remove the plugs... Remove the fuel pump fuse... remove the MAIN motronic relay... (you need to be absolutely insure there is no spark or fuel for the next step, or there could be a nasty fire) Crank the engine over for 4-7 seconds or so... (this will clear the cylinders of any/all fuel residue) Install FRESH plugs. reconnect relays, fuses, coils... Now, this is the annoying part... What has happened is that the lifters are not allowing the valves to completely open/close... therefore, no fire,,, What you are going to do is hook up a second battery in the traditional way to help with reserve cranking energy, and crank the piss out of the engine until it starts... The extended cranking helps to "pump up " the lifters.... It will make fitted attempts at starting, cough... fool you a few times into thinking it will start and then die some... But keep cranking! the engine will "tell" you when it is going to really start by it behaviour and sound. DO NOT give any throttle input until you have cranked a good 15-20 seconds and then only a tad... keep cranking, keep cranking, keep cranking. In extreme cases, I have had to crank as much as 1 minute and open the throttle almost all the way... BUT do not go much beyond that without allowing the starter to cool down some... The more you do it the longer the cooling periods will need to be. Sounds abusive, and it is. Takes a toll on the starter's longevity, but assuming all the sensors, etc are OK, it will start, run like shit 'til it warms a bit and then be fine... Lesson learned... NEVER EVER run an M50 for just a few moments, ESPECIALLY when cold. If it still doesn't start, then go through diagnostics of all the injection stuff. Good luck, Jenny Morgan On Dec 30, 2004, at 4:32 PM, Karl Zemlin wrote: > I don't think the car was driven only a short distance when parked. > > The temp was -5F when it first failed to start - it is now over 50F. > > Oil is Mobil 1 15-50 > > The plugs are Platinum +4 with about 25K miles on them. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jenny Morgan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 5:27 PM > To: Karl Zemlin > Subject: Re: [UUC] <E34> M50 - still no start > > Did you happen to drive this car 20-50 feet (running it for only a few > moments to do so) and then turn it off? > > What is the ambient temperature where the car is located? > > What weight oil do you have in the engine? > > How old are the plugs? > > Jenny Morgan > > > On Dec 30, 2004, at 3:37 PM, Karl Zemlin wrote: > >> Accelerator position seems to have no effect. >> The car won't run at all - but it does fire some when cranking. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Eric A. Giles [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 4:23 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Subject: RE: [UUC] <E34> M50 - still no start >> >> Excuse my ignorance on this as I just started reading this thread and >> do not know all of what has happened... >> >> Will the car run at all if you keep your foot on the accelerator, but >> die as soon as you let off? >> >> Once again, pardon me if this has already been mentioned. >> >> Eric Giles >> '97 M3/4 >> '90 M3 >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Karl Zemlin >>> Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 3:11 PM >>> To: [email protected]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> Subject: [UUC] <E34> M50 - still no start >>> >>> Plugs were pulled and cleaned (the business end looked fairly good >>> anyway - just a little wet on a couple of them). New crankshaft >>> position sensor - no change. >>> >>> Cranks, fires some, won't run. >>> >>> Was going to check the ECT, but I can't ID the thing. Where is it >>> on an M50TU engine? >>> >>> Going back out to poke around. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:54:19 -0800 (PST) From: Andre Yew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Spring compressors? Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi everyone, I'm going to be replacing the springs and shocks in my E46 328Ci (with H&R sport springs, and Bilstein sport shocks) in a couple of weeks. I need to get a spring compressor, and I have a friend who's used the cheap ones from Harbor Freight and elsewhere (they have hooks on two or three threaded rods, and you screw the hooks down the rods to compress the spring), and they look pretty frightening. I'd like to get one that will work well for the long term. Is it worth getting a nice one, like the RTI? Or will the cheap ones be OK? In other words, what spring compressor would you recommend? --Andre ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 21:55:55 -0500 From: "Michael Gambini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Spring compressors? Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I've used the threaded rod type several times till I almost had a very bad experience with one. Never again after that! The last time I did struts, I rented a floor mount, single threaded rod(like 1" dia), commercial one from Taylor rental for about $16. Worked beautifully and quickly. Took only a few minutes each. This type is pretty expensive--around $2-300 at least. The clamshell ones are also good. MikeG ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andre Yew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 7:54 PM Subject: [UUC] Spring compressors? > Hi everyone, > > I'm going to be replacing the springs and shocks in my E46 328Ci (with H&R > sport springs, and Bilstein sport shocks) in a couple of weeks. I need to > get a spring compressor, and I have a friend who's used the cheap ones > from Harbor Freight and elsewhere (they have hooks on two or three > threaded rods, and you screw the hooks down the rods to compress the > spring), and they look pretty frightening. I'd like to get one that will > work well for the long term. Is it worth getting a nice one, like the RTI? > Or will the cheap ones be OK? In other words, what spring compressor > would you recommend? > > --Andre ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 22:16:40 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Andy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Spring compressors? Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Howdy, On Thu, 30 Dec 2004, Andre Yew wrote: > I'm going to be replacing the springs and shocks in my E46 328Ci (with > H&R sport springs, and Bilstein sport shocks) in a couple of weeks. I > need to get a spring compressor, and I have a friend who's used the > cheap ones from Harbor Freight and elsewhere (they have hooks on two or > three threaded rods, and you screw the hooks down the rods to compress > the spring), and they look pretty frightening. I'd like to get one that > will work well for the long term. Is it worth getting a nice one, like > the RTI? Or will the cheap ones be OK? In other words, what spring > compressor would you recommend? For home use every now and then? I'd use a cheap one like: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=3980 (if its not exactly the same, I have one very much like it) For more frequent use? I'd get a wall mount one with a handwheel (which a friend with a shop has). I've used both and the main difference (to me) is that the expensive wallmount one is much faster to use. From a safety perspective, I think they're both very similar. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:43:08 -0600 From: Jamie Howton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Karl Zemlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: [email protected], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: <E34> M50 - still no start Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Wow! If that isn't the diagnosis of the year I don't know what is. I am thoroughly impressed. Regards Jamie Howton ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 21:30:34 -0500 From: "Gary Derian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: <E34> M50 - still no start Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Good call. When even slightly dirty plugs get wet, they conduct the spark energy to ground before voltage can build up to create a spark. Gary Derian > Jenny wins the puzzler! > > I was going to hold off on going through her detailed instructions until > tomorrow. She mentioned she couldn't be sure of her diagnosis without > hearing the car - and since I run a recording business on the side that > was > fairly easy to rectify. > > I setup a pair of cheapo mics in the driveway and recorded the car - but > in > the process of recording, the bugger started. > > Since I went to the trouble to record the car, here's the results for > anyone > who's interested. It's an MP3 file about 1MB in size. > > http://www.cheap-tracks.com/mp3/zemlin_cranky.mp3 > > Thanks, Jenny. I'll remember you forever - at least the part where you > wrote "NEVER EVER run an M50 for just a few moments ..." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 18:28:34 EST From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [email protected] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: E36 M3 (Looking for resources, info) Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello Everyone, Since I upgraded to AOL 9.0 I haven't been able to post....until "now"...text format is the "clue" :-) Anyway, my son recently bought a "real find" - a '96 E36 M3, original with only 36,000 miles, one owner/never smoked in car! I drove it and it's sweet!!!..cosmos/black leather. We are learning about these cars, and as I told Brett Anderson, Justin will be taking the car to you at some point...probably in the spring. He is in Ohio. But, what are the things he should look out for? Water pump replacement at 60,000 miles right? Replace thermostat at that time along with alum. housing right? Anything else to watch out for? This car is barely "broken in"...drives tight as "new". Any websites with information on these cars? Thanks for the help, John Weese Nittany Bimmers BMW CCA #76646 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 17:46:10 -0800 From: Jim Bassett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: E36 M3 (Looking for resources, info) Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Water pump replacement at 60,000 miles right? The change from the problematic plastic ones to metal/composite ones took place sometime during the 1996 MY, IIRC. You may want to consider replacing it now. > Replace thermostat at that time along with alum. housing right? A good idea. > Anything else to watch out for? Just the "typical" E36 things (M and non-M): Cooling system, power steering hoses, rear shock mounts to name just a couple. > This car is barely "broken in"...drives tight as "new". Sounds like a great find. > Any websites with information on these cars? There's the E36 M3 email list: http://www.bmw-m.net/ - select "E36M3 Digest"; there's some additional resources on the left-hand menu. There's a pretty good FAQ at the BMW M Registry: http://www.bmwmregistry.com/model_faq.php?id=15 Hope that helps, Jim Bassett 1998 M3/4 1993 325is #44 JP ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:00:35 -0800 From: "Scott & Charlotte Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "UUC Digest" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: BMWs in Tahoe Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Kevin, I agree with your assessment of the R3 requirement. My Durango has 4WD and snows. If they tell me I also need to put on chains, I'm turning around and going home. My brother-in-law lives in the Sierra and has a 4x4 pickup truck. He has occasionally put chains on his snow tires, but he pretty much had no choice, since turning around and going home didn't take him out of the snow. But he also found chains handy for when dirt roads turned muddy. I have owned several sets of chains that I never used, just because I had to carry them. Then again, it is kind of a Murphy's Law thing - you're way less likely to need them if you have them. Scott Miller GGC BMW CCA >Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 15:31:01 -0800 (GMT-08:00) >From: Kevin Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: [email protected] >Subject: BMWs in Tahoe >Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Jonathan agreed with me that a rental 4x4 might be a better idea than putting chains on a BMW. > >Then Marco posted that In CA you will still need to carry chains in a 4x4. with a link to the >CA vehicle code: > >http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/roadinfo/chcontrl.htm > >I've been going to Tahoe from the Bay Area every winter since I first learned how to ski in 1969 >and I lived up there the winter after I got of High School in 1983. I have never heard of anyone >with a 4x4 who was asked if they had chains. > >The CA vehicle code says: > >"Requirement One (R1): Chains are required, snow tires are allowed." > >This is when the CHP lets you decide if you want to put on chains. If you consider the 20 year >old Michelin XZX tires on your 2002 snow tires feel free to drive on through... > >"Requirement Two (R2): Chains are required on all vehicles except four wheel drive vehicles >with snow tires on all four wheels. (NOTE: Four wheel drive vehicles must carry traction devices >in chain control areas)" > >This is when they actually check every car to make sure it has chains or four wheel drive. <snip> > >"Requirement Three (R3): Chains are required on all vehicles, no exceptions." > >This never really happens and in reality the roads always get closed before you need a 4x4 with >chains to get through. <snip> > >Kevin Kelly >BMW CCA 50039 >With a full set of chains for the Range Rover that I have never used... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 21:04:57 -0800 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [email protected] Subject: Re: <E34> M50 No Start - Gooped up spark plug insulators ?!? Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Karl, The second of your pictures points to a definite valve cover gasket as the source of the oil soaked insulator. A loose plug will then allow the oil to seep into the threads and then onto the electrodes. -Kevin ------------------------------ End of [bmwuucdigest] digest(15 messages) **********
