The BMW UUC Digest Volume 3 : Issue 418 : "text" Format Messages in this Issue: Why BMWs are now so heavy Re: Why BMWs are now so heavy Re: Why BMWs are now so heavy Re: Why BMWs are now so heavy Re: Geneve Preview of new M3 Re: Geneve Preview of new M3 Re: Geneve Preview of new M3 Re: Geneve Preview of new M3 Re: Geneve Preview of new M3 Re: weight--318is Re: weight--E36 328is Re: weight--E36 Re: weight--E36 328is FW: weight--318is Re: Car weight (was Geneve Preview of new M3)
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 10:36:05 -0500 From: Dennis Liu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Why BMWs are now so heavy Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Very interesting thread. But it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that an M3 should be 3400+ lbs, or a 5-series to be 4k lbs+. Why are modern versions of these cars fully 1k lbs heavier than earlier BMWs? Because you and I want them. Well, maybe not YOU and ME specifically, but the vast majority of BMW buyers (and 99% of all car buyers worldwide today). There is a lot of weight due to new technology and safety features. How much does an airbag add? Four airbags? Six? And air side cushions? What about new frontal impact protection? Side impact protection? Add in the wiring and computers for ABS and traction control. 4 speakers not enough? How about 8? 10? 12? And a massive subwoofer? And a CD changer and DSP and NAV system? Power windows? Power locks? Power mirrors? Power sunroof with tilt? Heated leather, 73-way adjustable power seats? Heated leather seats with computer controlled side bolsters? Three-zone or four-zone automatic climate control with outside sensors. A steering wheel that used to have a horn button may now have radio and phone controls, cruise controls, transmission controls, an airbag . . . and a horn pad. 5-speed manual? Not good enough - now we need 6-speed automatics and 7-speed SMGs. Don't forget the weight of emissions equipment, and additional silencing on the muffler. All of which needs bigger rotors and calipers to stop all of this porky weight, and more robust suspension components. And, of course, more power from bigger engines to motivate this mass. We're left with diminishing returns, where the more weight we add, the more weight we HAVE to add - akin to the Saturn V moon rocket being so dang massive because every additional pound of fuel required nearly ANOTHER pound of fuel just to get the first pound of fuel off the ground! And we're in this situation now because you and I want all this stuff. Yeah, we might bemoan the lack of an E30 M3 today, but, face it, we want our little luxuries. Or else we'd all be driving an Elise or Ariel Atom. Vty, --Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 10:46:37 -0500 From: "Ben Keyes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Why BMWs are now so heavy Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Dennis wrote: > > And we're in this situation now because you and I want all this stuff. > Yeah, we might bemoan the lack of an E30 M3 today, but, face it, we want our > little luxuries. Or else we'd all be driving an Elise or Ariel Atom. yep. if I didn't live in the snowbelt, didn't have to be potentially squished by SUVs or rubbed off onto canyon-like walls on the highway or park it on the street I'd commute in a Caterham or Elise or ride a bike. as it is, I geeze along in my E34 M5 and wait for things to thaw so I can get the freaking track car running & get out of my wife's hair for a few weekends over the summer.... I'd like to be able to have something small & fun & cheap to zip around in as well, but can't rationalize spending 2-3x as much on a new car & eating the depreciation. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 10:50:41 -0500 From: "Fuerst, Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "UUC Digest" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Why BMWs are now so heavy Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Does anyone have the bare weights of an E30 compared to an E36? IE race trim cars sans interiors and sound deadening materials? Thanks, 1st ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 12:01:39 -0500 From: "Matt Bader" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'UUC Digest'" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Why BMWs are now so heavy Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I drive an E36 M3 and a 95 Mazda Protégé which weighs in somewhere around 2500 lbs. It only has a 1.8 ltr, but it revs easily and the 5 speed is very easy to row. Around town, the Mazda is actually more fun, and easier to drive. My M3 is a beast on the open round, but no fun in city traffic or urban driving. Of course, if an SUV slams into my Mazda, I no longer think I'd be having much fun. -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ben Keyes Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 10:47 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [UUC] Why BMWs are now so heavy Dennis wrote: > > And we're in this situation now because you and I want all this stuff. > Yeah, we might bemoan the lack of an E30 M3 today, but, face it, we want our > little luxuries. Or else we'd all be driving an Elise or Ariel Atom. yep. if I didn't live in the snowbelt, didn't have to be potentially squished by SUVs or rubbed off onto canyon-like walls on the highway or park it on the street I'd commute in a Caterham or Elise or ride a bike. as it is, I geeze along in my E34 M5 and wait for things to thaw so I can get the freaking track car running & get out of my wife's hair for a few weekends over the summer.... I'd like to be able to have something small & fun & cheap to zip around in as well, but can't rationalize spending 2-3x as much on a new car & eating the depreciation. Ben Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] __________________________________________________________________________ In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 10:42:24 -0500 From: "Ben Keyes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Geneve Preview of new M3 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Mitchell wrote: > Wow! I knew my E38 was a tank at over 4000 lbs. but I didn't know how heavy > ALL of the later year bimmers were. My theory is that you only have so much > money in a price range for developing technology and BMW puts it into their > sophisticated electronic driver aids like traction control and such, as well > as their continued development of powertrain and chassis dynamics. To go > into lighter weight through composites and alloys would be entering an > entire new realm, and that costs a lot of money. Maybe they should buy > Lotus from Proton or GM or whoever owns it now and see the other end of the > spectrum. VW owns or will soon own Lotus as they're buying Proton. Lotus has had a very hard time staying alive without an indulgent parent company and profitable engineering consultancy work. > The Elise has no high tech goodies and very few amenities, and > tips the scales at just UNDER 2000 lbs. it also doesn't meet US bumper regulations (check one out in the showroom sometime - there's a little disclaimer on the window sticker which notes the exemption that Lotus got from NHTSA or whomever to sell them anyway) and is a highly specialized thing. once you start making a car which normal people would want to drive every day, in any conditions you add on another 500 lbs pretty easily. the customer base who desire (and will pay the premium for) something like a 2300 lb 1-series w/lots of carbon & ceramic & plastic parts is very small & spending the engineering development resources on such a project takes a company willing to take a chance rather than mine the deep vein of (far more profitable) buyers they already have lined up for something like the new M3. tho a lot of the lighter weight cars I noted in an earlier post are boring econoboxes & whatnot, there's no reason you couldn't put a higher powered engine into one of them & have what they've had in europe for 20+ years - a proper, lightweight hot hatch in the mold of the original 205 GTi or 105 Rallye. even tho you'd end up with something heavier & more like a current Clio 197, you'd have usable performance in a fun package. tho the current VW GTi basically offers that, it's grown to something more than "small" size over the years. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 12:04:37 -0500 From: "Blair, Glenn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Geneve Preview of new M3 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Glenn It might be more trouble than it's worth but how well does BMW'S small 6, m20 or 50 and/ or trans. fit in an MGB? Anyone done that? I suspect more than just me had an MGB before, maybe even still. Glenn 93 e36 89 iX BMW + parts car 77 MGB W. PA. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 10:50:33 -0500 From: Mark Alan Selleck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Geneve Preview of new M3 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The most fun I have driving is with my '65 Porsche 356SC coupe. It is "underpowered" by today's standards (~100hp, 2000#), but I can throw it around on twisties, and feel as if I'm part of the car. My '85 535i (290k miles, original engine) is still fun with it's 180hp, and it's 3400#. But, the heavier you go, the more power you need to maintain the performance, with necessary braking and tire size increase, and you lose the feeling of being one with the car. Economy goes out the window, and it's unneccesary. My $.02. Mark Selleck Mitchell, Philip S wrote: > It is amazing at the performance >gains that you reap when you shed weight. Acceleration, agility, cornering, >braking all go through the roof with the added benefit of improved fuel >economy. The other trade offs are comfort and durability. They haven't >built a Lotus yet that would last the 230k miles that I have on my 97 740i >without a couple of complete rebuilds. There must be a middle ground. > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 12:01:39 -0500 From: "Matt Bader" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Geneve Preview of new M3 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Yes, I am just thinking about ways to lighten my E36 M3. But it's a four door so I have heard options are limited for carbon fiber hoods, truck lids, etc. At 3175 it's still way too heavy for my tastes. I used to driver an early model Acura integra. Week engine by today's standards as well, but the car only weighed 2300 lbs, and the engine revved quite happily and had a great shifter. -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Alan Selleck Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 10:51 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [UUC] Geneve Preview of new M3 The most fun I have driving is with my '65 Porsche 356SC coupe. It is "underpowered" by today's standards (~100hp, 2000#), but I can throw it around on twisties, and feel as if I'm part of the car. My '85 535i (290k miles, original engine) is still fun with it's 180hp, and it's 3400#. But, the heavier you go, the more power you need to maintain the performance, with necessary braking and tire size increase, and you lose the feeling of being one with the car. Economy goes out the window, and it's unneccesary. My $.02. Mark Selleck Mitchell, Philip S wrote: > It is amazing at the performance >gains that you reap when you shed weight. Acceleration, agility, cornering, >braking all go through the roof with the added benefit of improved fuel >economy. The other trade offs are comfort and durability. They haven't >built a Lotus yet that would last the 230k miles that I have on my 97 740i >without a couple of complete rebuilds. There must be a middle ground. > > > > Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] __________________________________________________________________________ In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 17:11:38 +0000 From: John Burns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Geneve Preview of new M3 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > The more I drive my 2610 lb e30 318is, the more I appreciate > lightness and wonderful balance....where is that car in the current > lineup? Agreed, I'm on my third :-) Gave the last one away at 200k miles, it was getting a bit rusty. Such a shame the M42 wasn't a 2.0 though. Current one sleeps in the garage over winter, former concourse winner. Took it out for a drive a week ago, up until then I though my e36 328i touring with AC Schnitzer suspension handled well ;-) They've made nothing to touch the e30 318iS, so sad. -- Who needs a life when you've got Unix? :-) Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED], John G.Burns B.Eng, Bonny Scotland Web : http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk - The Ultimate BMW Homepage! Need Sun or HP Unix kit? http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk/unix.html www.Strathspey.co.uk - Quality Binoculars at a Sensible price ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:47:47 -0500 From: "john grills" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'John Burns'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[email protected]> Subject: Re: weight--318is Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> John, we know well of your attachment to this model. I've benefited from your website both before and after getting my car. This makes an even more compelling case for the Downing-Atlanta SC kit. I'm guessing that would be even more fun than the Cooper-S, and the proper wheels pushing to boot! Unfortunately, the resale value is basically still very low...but who sells their beloved cars anyway? Minis are still too expensive anyway...darn resale value again...I guess I'll buy one w/80k on it like all my other cars. This has been a fun thread! Happy to be able to rile up the board. Cheers! jpg -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Burns Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 12:12 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [UUC] Geneve Preview of new M3 > The more I drive my 2610 lb e30 318is, the more I appreciate lightness > and wonderful balance....where is that car in the current lineup? Agreed, I'm on my third :-) Gave the last one away at 200k miles, it was getting a bit rusty. Such a shame the M42 wasn't a 2.0 though. Current one sleeps in the garage over winter, former concourse winner. Took it out for a drive a week ago, up until then I though my e36 328i touring with AC Schnitzer suspension handled well ;-) They've made nothing to touch the e30 318iS, so sad. -- Who needs a life when you've got Unix? :-) Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED], John G.Burns B.Eng, Bonny Scotland Web : http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk - The Ultimate BMW Homepage! Need Sun or HP Unix kit? http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk/unix.html www.Strathspey.co.uk - Quality Binoculars at a Sensible price Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] __________________________________________________________________________ In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 12:56:09 -0500 From: "Racing King" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: weight--E36 328is Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> My 328is race car weight 2600lb roughly in race trim (1 seat, all glass, cage). Very predictable car around the track with a M52 engine pushing 260hp (hopfully a tad more this season). Next project is a 1300lb locost (lotus 7 replica) with a 250hp engine... talk about power to weight ratio. I also find that cars are getting more and more heavy, and I am not a big fan of the driver assistance except ABS. I can do without automatic sway bars or traction control. And again, this will justify a M3 CSL lightweight version. Bruno Webmaster of the BMW E34 Website: www.bmwe34.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "john grills" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'John Burns'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[email protected]> Sent: February 07, 2007 12:47 PM Subject: Re: [UUC] weight--318is > John, we know well of your attachment to this model. I've benefited from > your website both before and after getting my car. > > This makes an even more compelling case for the Downing-Atlanta SC kit. > I'm > guessing that would be even more fun than the Cooper-S, and the proper > wheels pushing to boot! Unfortunately, the resale value is basically still > very low...but who sells their beloved cars anyway? Minis are still too > expensive anyway...darn resale value again...I guess I'll buy one w/80k on > it like all my other cars. > > This has been a fun thread! Happy to be able to rile up the board. > > Cheers! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 13:20:26 -0500 From: Matt Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: weight--E36 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> My '96 E36 318i usually weighs in at 2,876 or so in a stock environment (as in autocross stock, all the junk removed, Kosei wheels and Hoosier Racing Tires). It has the "big" M44 motor (1.9). Its acceleration "gently caresses you into the seat®." Matt Murray ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 11:13:06 -0800 From: Mark Dadgar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: weight--E36 328is Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On Mar 7, 2007, at 9:56 AM, Racing King wrote: > My 328is race car weight 2600lb roughly in race trim (1 seat, all > glass, cage). Very predictable car around the track with a M52 > engine pushing 260hp (hopfully a tad more this season). What class is this car? - Mark ----- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Check out my JustRacing Home Page at: http://www.justracing.com/homepage/mdadgar ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:51:29 -0500 From: "john grills" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: FW: weight--318is Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of john grills Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 12:48 PM To: 'John Burns'; [email protected] Subject: Re: [UUC] weight--318is John, we know well of your attachment to this model. I've benefited from your website both before and after getting my car. This makes an even more compelling case for the Downing-Atlanta SC kit. I'm guessing that would be even more fun than the Cooper-S, and the proper wheels pushing to boot! Unfortunately, the resale value is basically still very low...but who sells their beloved cars anyway? Minis are still too expensive anyway...darn resale value again...I guess I'll buy one w/80k on it like all my other cars. This has been a fun thread! Happy to be able to rile up the board. Cheers! jpg -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Burns Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 12:12 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [UUC] Geneve Preview of new M3 > The more I drive my 2610 lb e30 318is, the more I appreciate lightness > and wonderful balance....where is that car in the current lineup? Agreed, I'm on my third :-) Gave the last one away at 200k miles, it was getting a bit rusty. Such a shame the M42 wasn't a 2.0 though. Current one sleeps in the garage over winter, former concourse winner. Took it out for a drive a week ago, up until then I though my e36 328i touring with AC Schnitzer suspension handled well ;-) They've made nothing to touch the e30 318iS, so sad. -- Who needs a life when you've got Unix? :-) Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED], John G.Burns B.Eng, Bonny Scotland Web : http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk - The Ultimate BMW Homepage! Need Sun or HP Unix kit? http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk/unix.html www.Strathspey.co.uk - Quality Binoculars at a Sensible price Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] __________________________________________________________________________ In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] __________________________________________________________________________ In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 10:45:13 -0800 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Car weight (was Geneve Preview of new M3) Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Ben says: "somehow I don't think gold leaf as heat insulation or inconel exhausts are going to make it into anything anytime soon tho." I wonder why not aerogel? -Kevin ---------------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail communication is confidential and is intended only for the individual(s) or entity named above and others who have been specifically authorized to receive it. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not read, copy, use or disclose the contents of this communication to others. Please notify the sender that you have received this e-mail in error by replying to the e-mail. Please then delete the e-mail and any copies of it. Thank you. ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of [bmwuucdigest] digest(15 messages) **********
