>> -----Original Message----- >> From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 3:11 PM >> To: CF-Community >> Subject: RE: just plain wrong >> >> > A troubled kid on the other hand might throw a chair >> > through the window then start heaving all their >> > belongings out after it (if not themselves). They >> > might grab a shard of the glass and use to slash the >> > draps and stab their pillows. >> >> Which gets back into my original comments about weapons >> being >> involved. The situation described didn't involve any >> weapons. The most >> destructive behavior described was tossing crap on the >> floor and >> standing on a desk. Boo-hoo. Oh no! A child is on a desk! >> I need a cop >> to fight this battle for me.
> Now I'm confused - what are we talking about? > Your statements were not specific to that situation but to > all kids. I was > addressing only the latter. > If we're talking about just that kid then I agree - I > would have expected > the educators to handle the situation alone. > But you were saying all five-year olds in all cases - > that's just not true. But I did make the exception of situations involving weapons. And I stand by my position of "all five-year olds in all cases" when no weapons are involved. >> It has to be taken in context of course. Sure, in a >> situation that >> involves weapons of some kind having someone trained to >> deal with a >> weapon situation is probably a good idea. And I wouldn't >> object to >> people taking training or studying how to better deal >> with weapon-free >> situations, but I find the idea that people could (and I >> suspect some >> people do) think that training for those situations is >> necessary >> honestly disturbing. Do we just start arbitrarily >> requiring that >> everyone be trained to handle any common situation that >> someone found >> unpleasant? > It could help. All child care workers have required > training: pediatric > CPR, Mandated Reporting, Child Restraint, etc. I've let > my certifications > lapse, but most are available (many for free) from your > local Red Cross. I wasn't talking about people who work with children for a living, I was talking about people in general... > I'm not sure why the very idea of learning more about a > situation and proven > methods to address it should be seen as a bad thing? It's not. What's seen as a bad thing is the idea of mandatory training to deal with common unpleasant situations just because they're unpleasant. ... best example of why I find the idea disturbing (off the top of my head) is Huxley's Brave New World. Not a great example, because it's something of a stretch from here to there, but that's the lean. Orwell's fear was that we would be dominated by an opressive external force -- Huxley's fear was that we would use the things we love (TV, prescription drugs, the internet, etc) to lull ourselves into a place where we essentially trivialized away our existence -- live, die, doesn't matter, because everybody's just peachy and there's nothing anybody can do about it. For a number of years I was convinced that Huxley was right, and then we started the "War On Terrorism" and now I'm convinced they were both right. >> > Good call - but I'm sure you can see where some people >> > see violent behavior and instantly think "police" even >> > if that's not the technically correct choice. It's the >> > same reason that people see a cat in a tree and think >> > "fire department". >> >> Stupid people. > Again - that's insulting. Calling ANYBODY that reaches > out for help "stupid" is just so wrong on so many levels. It wasn't intended to be quite that arbitrary... "people who call the fire department to get a cat out of a tree" was my intent. Imo that sort of activity is asinine. >> > Think over your life about some of the ridiculous >> > things you've seen police called for. Many people, >> > when faced with scary or violent situations of any >> > ilk first think "police". >> >> I spent a night in jail once. My brother in-law >> (martial-arts trained >> and about twice my weight) heard raised voices in the >> other room. A TV >> tray with a plate of food on it got knocked over >> accidentally and he >> launched into the room on top of me and started punching >> me in the >> face repeatedly (broke my tooth) under the assumption >> that I was >> beating his sister. I spent the night in jail for >> defending myself >> because my ex called 9-11 out of fear for me. I wouldn't >> have called >> myself, I think she overreacted, albeit less so than her >> brother whom >> I count among the "irretreivably stupid". I got to spend >> the night in >> jail with him because I bit his arm when he shoved it in >> my mouth. > As much as I feel for you I simply don't see how this > relates? People's first response to violence being to call the police. It's how I ended up spending the night in jail for defending myself, and likely colors my impression of people who are in my opinion quick to resort to calling them. In spite of not being a criminal in any way (truth is in most cases I'm too honest for my own good), I've never had a pleasant experience that involved a police officer. As a result I'm not very likely to think of them as "pals". >> > There's no shame in getting help with your kids if >> > you feel you need it. It just seems like you're >> > saying there is. People shouldn't EVER feel like >> > they're failures if they can't handle everything >> > on their own. >> >> Perhaps I'm jaded for not having had that luxury... > I'm sorry - it's a cop-out if you say it wasn't available > to you and you > wanted it. As I said, most local mental-health > associations and Red Cross > centers have classes and programs for very little or no > money. The Internet > offers many free resources as do many schools, > YMCAs/YWCAs, hospitals and > day care centers. <snip> > This stuff isn't a luxury. I wasn't talking about the specifics (help dealing with children or otherwise) -- it was more of a generalization about my life. My own personal experiences have been that when other people fuck-up (repeatedly), they're treated well and reward for it, but that when I've been in a difficult situation and asked for help, I've reached out my hand to have it more or less bitten off. I don't say this with the intent of self-pitty or of receiving pitty from anyone else -- it's just been my experience, and it's colored my opinions of a lot of things. That's a large part of why I'm bothered when I see someone who I perceive is shirking responsibility. > The people in your life obviously have not sought help - > don't you think it would be better if they did? It's a possibility, although I find it unlikely given my experiences. >> So yes, personal responsibility is a real issue for me. > Sorry - but I call bullshit. Taking a class, getting > help and knowing your limitations are the height of > personal responsibility. Allowing yourself to be > overcome, plodding forward when you don't know what > you're doing and living in lazy ignorance are all a > shirking of personal responsibility. In a situation in which outside help is warranted or necessary I agree. We apparently disagree about what constitutes that need, and/or whether or not it is responsible to resort to outside forces (particularly police) when it's not. Which isn't all that unusual. My opinions about things tend to be fairly afield of the mainstream anyway. When the hurricanes were hitting Florida last year, the cops were getting people off the beaches. They wouldn't allow surfers to go out in the water because of the storms coming, which seems reasonable enough to most folks. The police' reason for keeping them off the beach was so they wouldn't risk their lives out looking for them... to which my response was BS -- everybody knows a storm is coming, everybody knows what the risks are -- if some surfer wants to piss their life away, the cops shouldn't risk their own safety for them. It's not the cop's responsibility to save them from themselves - they should reserve their aid for people who want it early enough to receive it safely. For those people, who participate in the evacuations when it's time, the cops can give aid, so that they can go to a shelter where they'll be locked in with a mental-health professional who sets a pack of angry dogs on them during the height of the storm. ( the newspaper has since removed the article from their site: http://www.florida-cracker.org/archives/001399.html ) s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://www.sys-con.com/author/?id=4806 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:155175 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/5 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:5 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.5 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
