Hi Andrew,

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On 07 Feb 2011, at 19:22, Andrew Soltau wrote:

Hi BrunoThe first seven steps of UDA makes the following points:1) that comp entails the existence of first person indeterminacy ina deterministic context. Step 1-3. This is an original result thatI published in 1988 (although I made a dozen of conference on thisin the seventies). Many academics have criticize this, but theirargument have been debunked. Chalmers did criticize it at the ASSC4.2) that any measure of uncertainty of the comp first personindeterminacy is independent of the reconstitution delays (stepfour).3) that comp entails first person non locality (step this has beenmore developed in my thesis, long and short version are in my webpage). This has been retrieved from sane04 (for reason of place),but is developed in the original 1994 thesis (and in the 1998 shortversion, recently published).4) That first person experience does not distinguish real fromvirtual implementation (this is not original, it is in Galouye, andit is a comp version of the old dream argument in the greek chineseand indian antic literature). Step six. In particular indeterminacyand non locality does not depend on the real or virtual nature ofthe computation.All good so far.Step seven itself shows the reversal between physics and arithmetic(or any first order theory of any universal system in post ChurchTuring sense) in case the physical universe exists primitively andis sufficiently big.Because?

`Because if you universe is as big as running a UD, and containing UD*,`

`if by luck you were here and now in a physical universe, at the next`

`instant you are in the UD* with any reasonable measure of first person`

`uncertainty. Even multiplied by 2^aleph_0.`

`You might think you can conceive a physical universe capable of`

`beating the UD in its redundancy, but even then, you will have to`

`attach your mind to some of its non turing emulable part for`

`preventing to be swallowed by the UD and its random oracle, and this`

`reduce physics (in case you are turing emulable), in the computer`

`science theoretical UD* white rabbit hunting. It might be that some`

`particular universal dovetailing win in the limit, like I think`

`quantum computation does, but that remains to be explained from`

`inside, without postulating this at the start.`

`And besides, step 8 prevent the use of primitive matter for`

`singularizing consciousness. In the paper and book preceding sane04, I`

`present the step 8, before the UD, it helps against physical`

`dovetailer competition.`

So UDA1-7 is the one of the main result of the thesis. A theorywhich want to explain and unify quanta and qualia, and respectcomp, has to derive quanta and qualia without postulating them.Yes

`So you agree we cannot postulate the quanta? We cannot postulate the`

`physical ? That's the point.`

You have also that comp + ~solipsisme entails first person pluralMW. Normally comp should imply ~solipsisme, but as I explain thispart is not yet solved in the concrete.?Now most people (among interested) understand UDA1-7, that is, thatcomp + *very big* universe entails the reversal. If you have noproblem with the first person indeterminacy, with the invariancefor reconstitution delays, with the inability of first persons todistinguish (in short time) real and virtual, I don't see what youmiss in the step seven. 7 is a direct consequence of 4,5,6.Because?

`Because if you agree that P = 1/2 for the WM duplication. If you agree`

`that an iteration of self-duplication is a Bernouilli experience`

`leading to a normal distribution, you see that in front of the UD you`

`are in front of an iterated self-duplication.`

`Come one, if the physical universe mulitplies more the normal words`

`than the UD, then you have to take into accoun that it will mulitply`

`more its own UD. That is wahy you can say that the proba is 1/2 (say)`

`for a WM duplication, because we duplicate relatively to the normal`

`worlds. You if you say yes to the doctor nin our normal worlds, you`

`already know that you are already driven by the normal UD worlds, so`

`that even the laws of your superuniverse have to be deduced by the UD`

`structure, that is arithmetic as seen from inside.`

These simply show that the structure of information / algorithm /computation defining the mind of the observer is simultaneouslypresent in a very large number of different physical instantiations.

`"physical" has no usable meaning here. Eventually you have to define`

`it as a (hopefully plural) first person view.`

I say that this means that the effective physical environment ofthis observer is the simultaneity of all of those physicalenvironments. This is the concept I call 'universe superposition'.

`Quantum vacuum will do, but why the quantum? What is an observer? What`

`do you mean by 'simultaneity'?`

The result applies equally to a reality basically physical orarithmetic.

`The arithmetical makes the physical a particular view on the`

`arithmetical, and the arithmetical reappear in the physical, but they`

`should not be identified. there are complex relations in between.`

The result is personal parallel physical realities for each andevery observer, which I find very interesting and exciting.This is because, in each such reality, the effective physicalenvironment (quantum mechanical, or arithmetically simulated quantummechanical) is determinate only where observed. Thus each observeris in a very special position in their reality, in that all theother observers are effectively icons in this reality, of otherparallel realities.So the difference between me and others in my reality suggestssolipsism - only I am real and fully defined in my reality. At thesame time, we are all in the same situation, which is why I call itmultisolipsism. Naturally, all this applies irrespective of whetherthe basis of reality is physical or arithmetic.But I don't see why any of that implies 'the reversal betweenphysics and arithmetic'. It does imply that the determinacy of theeffective physical environment of the observer is defined by, andonly by, the structure of information defining the observer, as heldin many-minds theories. This is all part of the universesuperposition concept. But we still require a physical reality forall this to be instantiated in.

`Still a bit suffering from Aristotelian brainwashing. I can suggest`

`many cures :)`

The best one is logic and theoretical computer science.

`To instantiate things is what universal numbers like to do the most`

`well, but below your level of substitution they all compete for doing`

`that.`

`Not only we don't require a physical reality, but adding a physical`

`reality can only make the body problems artificially more difficult.`

`Your multisolipsism idea might have some sense (although I think the`

`many-mind theory does not, it adds a problem of probability where`

`there is none. Perhaps your misunderstanding, with my respect, could`

`be related to that.`

Now, you can postulate that this physical reality itself issimulated, or purely arithmetic. And I have no problem with that.But I do not see how this is shown to be the case.

`Because physical reality is given by the 1-indeterminacy measure on`

`all universal numbers working below your substitution level, in your`

`computational histories (as seen from your 'angle').`

To do that, you would have to show that the appearance of all ofthis going on is the natural result of arithmetical processes in theabsence of physical instantiation. This is what I am all agog tohave explained to me!

`I don't have to show anything. I am just explaining that comp leads to`

`a body problem, expressible in a Platonist and even Pythagorean`

`machine's theology. And that such a problem cannot be used to easily`

`refute comp, because when you do the math, you see there is already a`

`quantum like notion of credibility/probability, and that nothing is`

`obvious there.`

`You should perhaps dig more on theoretical computer science and`

`mathematical logic if you want to invest in comp, CTM, ALG, whatever`

`universal machine can find the reason of quanta and qualia in their`

`own head!`

Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.