On 8/29/2012 8:34 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
Actually what you're saying makes me think of something new. Maybe the
assumed singularity of the subject comes only through objectivity.
Think of the dreamstate, or dementia, or infancy, where subjectivity
is most directly exposed. The nature of the subject by itself is
neither one nor many but orthogonal to quantity. It is a non-specific
quasi-multiplicity/singularity of possible qualities and experiences.
Exactly! In the cases of dreamstate, dementia, infancy and
equivalent (multiple personality disorder?) there is no singular subject
that is invariant on a sequence of states. This is the same as saying
that there is no self-narrative.
It is the experience of objects that divides the self into a
hypothetical 'one' as it internalizes its own place in the world of
Right! That is how naming occurs.
Deprive it of sleep or give it a good movie to watch in a dark theater
and the subject goes right back to (non-zero/non-infinity).
Right, self-identification is lost in those cases.
This affirms my sense of quantity on the outside, quality on the inside.
On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 8:23:59 AM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote:
On 8/29/2012 7:38 AM, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Craig Weinberg
Consciousness is not a monople, it is a dipole:
Cs = subject + object
The subject is always first person indeterminate.
Being indeterminate, it is not computable.
It is not a dipole in the normal sense, as the object is not
restricted to being singular. The subject is always singular
(necessity) while the object is possibly singular.
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so
everything could function."
----- Receiving the following content -----
*Time:* 2012-08-28, 12:19:50
*Subject:* No Chinese Room Necessary
This sentence does not speak English.
These words do not ‘refer’ to themselves.
s l u ,u s
If you don't like Searle's example, perhaps the above can
help illustrate that form is not inherently informative.
The implication here for me is that comp is a red herring as
far as ascertaining the origin of awareness.
Either we view computation inherently having awareness as a
meaningless epiphenomenal byproduct (yay, no free will), or
we presume that computation can and does exist independently
of all awareness but that a particular category of
meta-computation is what we call awareness.
Even with the allowances that Bruno includes (or my
understanding of what Bruno includes) in the form of first
person indeterminacy and/or non comp contents, Platonic
number dreams, etc - all of these can only negatively assert
the completeness of arithmetic truth. My understanding is
that G del (and others) are used to support this negative
assertion, and I of course agree that indeed it is impossible
for any arithmetic system to be complete, especially in the
sense of defining itself completely. I suspect that Bruno
assumes that I don't have a deep enough understanding of
this, but I think that what understanding I do have is enough
to persuade me that this entire line of investigation is a
dead end as far as explaining consciousness. It only works if
we assume consciousness as a possibility a priori and
independently of any arithmetic logic.
Nowhere do I find in any AI/AGI theory any positive assertion
of awareness. It is not enough to say /*that*/ awareness fits
into this or that category of programmatic interiority or
logically necessary indeterminacy when the question of *what*
awareness is in the first place and *why* is has not been
addressed at all.
As I demonstrate in the three lines at the top, and Searle
tried to demonstrate, awareness does not follow automatically
from a negative assertion of computability. I bring up the
example of cymatics on another thread. Scooping salt into a
symmetrical-mandala pattern does not conjure up an acoustic
vibration associated with that pattern. Qualia does not
follow from quanta.
Quanta, however, could and I think does follow from qualia as
a method of sequestering experiences to different degrees of
privacy while retaining shared sense on more primitive
'public' levels. These methods would necessarily be construed
as automatic to insulate crosstalk between channels of sense
- to encourage the coherence of perceptual inertial frames to
develop unique significance rather than to decohere into the
entropy of the totality.
Does anyone have any positive assertion of consciousness
derived from either physics or arithmetic? Any need for
actual feelings and experiences, for direct participation?
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to email@example.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
For more options, visit this group at