Hi Stephen,

Actually what you're saying makes me think of something new. Maybe the 
assumed singularity of the subject comes only through objectivity. Think of 
the dreamstate, or dementia, or infancy, where subjectivity is most 
directly exposed. The nature of the subject by itself is neither one nor 
many but orthogonal to quantity. It is a non-specific 
quasi-multiplicity/singularity of possible qualities and experiences.

It is the experience of objects that divides the self into a hypothetical 
'one' as it internalizes its own place in the world of discrete objects. 
Deprive it of sleep or give it a good movie to watch in a dark theater and 
the subject goes right back to (non-zero/non-infinity). This affirms my 
sense of quantity on the outside, quality on the inside.

Craig

On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 8:23:59 AM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote:
>
>  On 8/29/2012 7:38 AM, Roger Clough wrote:
>  
> Hi Craig Weinberg 
>  
> I agree.
>  
> Consciousness is not a monople, it is a dipole:
>  
> Cs = subject + object
>  
> The subject is always first person indeterminate.
> Being indeterminate, it is not computable.
>  
> QED
>
> Hi Roger,
>
>     It is not a dipole in the normal sense, as the object is not 
> restricted to being singular. The subject is always singular (necessity) 
> while the object is possibly singular. 
>
>   
>  
> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net <javascript:>
> 8/29/2012 
> Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so 
> everything could function."
>  
> ----- Receiving the following content ----- 
> *From:* Craig Weinberg <javascript:> 
> *Receiver:* everything-list <javascript:> 
> *Time:* 2012-08-28, 12:19:50
> *Subject:* No Chinese Room Necessary
>
>  This sentence does not speak English.
>
> These words do not ‘refer’ to themselves.
>
> s l u ,u s 
>
>
>  If you don't like Searle's example, perhaps the above can help 
> illustrate that form is not inherently informative.
>
> The implication here for me is that comp is a red herring as far as 
> ascertaining the origin of awareness. 
>  
> Either we view computation inherently having awareness as a meaningless 
> epiphenomenal byproduct (yay, no free will), or we presume that computation 
> can and does exist independently of all awareness but that a particular 
> category of meta-computation is what we call awareness.
>
> Even with the allowances that Bruno includes (or my understanding of what 
> Bruno includes) in the form of first person indeterminacy and/or non comp 
> contents, Platonic number dreams, etc - all of these can only negatively 
> assert the completeness of arithmetic truth. My understanding is that G 
> del (and others) are used to support this negative assertion, and I of 
> course agree that indeed it is impossible for any arithmetic system to be 
> complete, especially in the sense of defining itself completely. I suspect 
> that Bruno assumes that I don't have a deep enough understanding of this, 
> but I think that what understanding I do have is enough to persuade me that 
> this entire line of investigation is a dead end as far as explaining 
> consciousness. It only works if we assume consciousness as a possibility a 
> priori and independently of any arithmetic logic.
>
> Nowhere do I find in any AI/AGI theory any positive assertion of 
> awareness. It is not enough to say **that** awareness fits into this or 
> that category of programmatic interiority or logically necessary 
> indeterminacy when the question of *what* awareness is in the first place 
> and *why* is has not been addressed at all.
>
> As I demonstrate in the three lines at the top, and Searle tried to 
> demonstrate, awareness does not follow automatically from a negative 
> assertion of computability. I bring up the example of cymatics on another 
> thread. Scooping salt into a symmetrical-mandala pattern does not conjure 
> up an acoustic vibration associated with that pattern. Qualia does not 
> follow from quanta.
>
> Quanta, however, could and I think does follow from qualia as a method of 
> sequestering experiences to different degrees of privacy while retaining 
> shared sense on more primitive 'public' levels. These methods would 
> necessarily be construed as automatic to insulate crosstalk between 
> channels of sense - to encourage the coherence of perceptual inertial 
> frames to develop unique significance rather than to decohere into the 
> entropy of the totality.
>  
> Does anyone have any positive assertion of consciousness derived from 
> either physics or arithmetic? Any need for actual feelings and experiences, 
> for direct participation?
>
> Craig
>  
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> -- 
> Onward!
>
> Stephen
> http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html
>
> 

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