On 8/30/2012 11:01 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
I think that there are many tries to separate moral from ethics: indiividual versus
social, innate versus cultural, emotional versus rational etc. The whole point is to
obviate the m*** world as much as we can, under the impression that moral is subjective
and not objetive, or more precisely that there is no moral that can be objective. An
there is such crap as the separation of facts and values (as if values (and in
particular universal values) where not social facts).
That some societies value the education of women and some value their ignorance are both
certainly facts.
Well, this is a more effect of positivism which is deeply flawed in theoretical and
practical terms. It is a consequence also of modern gnosticism, called progressivism
of which positivism is one of the phases, that believes possible in a certain future a
society with a perfect harmony of individual desires and social needs, making moral
unnecessary. They also believe that the current social reality is a demiurgic creation
of repressive social forces that hinder an era of Wisdom and Peace....
But this is impossible. Not only it is against judeochristian traditions, but against
the theorical basis of the progressive ideology: the theory of evolution (natural
selection). Men are social individuals and therefore moral is deep in his hardwired
(instintive) nature, as multilevel selection theory can demonstrate.
All the above is an example of using 'moral' where 'ethics' would be more accurate.
Morals (standards of self-evaluations) are subjective even though some of them are
hardwired by evolution, ethics are intersubjective (standards of public, social
evaluation) even though some of them are selected by cultural evolution.
I would ask Alberto how he defines "morals" and "ethics". Are they rules? feelings?
opinions? what?
The point is not to separate them, in the sense of eliminating overlap, but to recognize
that ethics and morals are not coextensive and it is often useful to distinguish them.
Many people believe it is immoral not to worship God in church on Sunday - and as an
evaluation of their own behavoir that's fine. But that doesn't mean it is unethical to
think differently or that public policy should force or encourage church attendance (as it
did in earlier times).
Brent
So let´s call moral what is: moral.
2012/8/30 Bruno Marchal <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
On 29 Aug 2012, at 22:30, meekerdb wrote:
From experience I know people tend not to adopt it, but let me recommend a
distinction. Moral is what I expect of myself. Ethics is what I do and
what I
hope other people will do in their interactions with other people. They of
course
tend to overlap since I will be ashamed of myself if I cheat someone, so
it's both
immoral and unethical. But they are not the same. If I spent my time
smoking pot
and not working I'd be disappointed in myself, but it wouldn't be unethical.
I'm not sure I understand. "not working" wouldn't be immoral either.
Disappointing,
yes, but immoral?
BTW:
I would not relate pot with not working. Some people don't work and smoke
pot, and
then blame pot for their non working, but some people smokes pot and work
very well.
The only researcher I knew smoking pot from early morning to evening,
everyday,
since hies early childhood, was the one who published the most, and get the
most
prestigious post in the US.
As a math teacher, since I told students that blaming pot will not been
allowed for
justifying exam problems, some students realize that they were using pot to
lie to
themselves on their motivation for study. It is so easy.
Likewise, if we were allowed to drive while being drunk, after a while the
number of
car accidents due to alcohol would probably diminish a lot, because the
real culprit
is not this product or that behavior, but irresponsibility, which is
encouraged by
treating adults like children. I think.
Bruno
On 8/29/2012 8:54 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
Not only to lie. In order to commerce and in general to interact, we need
to know
what to expect from whom. and the other need to know what the others expect
form
me. So I have to reflect on myself in order to act in the enviromnent of
the moral
and material expectations that others have about me. This is the origin of
reflective individuality, that is moral from the beginning..
2012/8/29 meekerdb <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
But Craig makes a point when he says computers only deal in words.
That's why
something having human like intelligence and consciousness must be a
robot,
something that can act wordlessly in it's environment. Evolutionarily
speaking, conscious narrative is an add-on on top of subconscious
thought
which is responsible for almost everything we do. Julian Jaynes
theorized
that humans did not become conscious in the modern sense until they
engaged in
inter-tribal commerce and it became important to learn to lie.
Brent
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