On 9/15/2012 8:52 AM, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Stephen P. King

I seem to have-- whoops-- totally misread him. Logical dyslexia ?

Hi Roger,

Good catch! Yeah, my dyslexia distorts things in a weird "telephone game" way...

His first sentence is correct:

"Conscious experience is an expression of nonphysical mind"
OK, but I agree with that remark. It is the idea that "all that exists is the possible expressions of nonphysical mind" that I find to be deeply flawed.

I don't follow the rest of your comments. Berkeley's solipsism has
never been disproven, as far as I know.

The inability for Berkeley and those to support his thesis to answer to Mr. Johnson's retort of bounding his foot off of a rock was the evidence of the flaw. A thesis that makes a deed ontological statement, such as Immaterials does with its thesis that: "all that exists is the possible expressions of nonphysical mind", need to be able to explain the causal relationships of that which it claims is "merely epiphenomena", as such can have (by definition) no causal efficacy whatsoever. The fact that I experience a world that is not directly maleable to my whim is a pretty good indication that it is not just the case "all that exists is the possible expressions of nonphysical mind" since I have what very much appears to be a " nonphysical mind".

Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
so that everything could function."
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Stephen P. King
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-09-14, 12:09:25
Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

On 9/14/2012 7:05 AM, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Craig Weinberg

His very first sentence is wrong. Conscious experience is an expression of 
nonphysical mind,
although it may deal with physical topics.

"It is widely accepted that conscious experience has a physical basis.
Dear Roger,

      No, you misunderstand his argument. If "Conscious experience is an
expression of nonphysical mind" in a strict "nothing but" sense then
consciousness would be completely solipsistic and incapable of even
comprehending that it is not all that exists. It is because
consciousness is contained to be Boolean representable (and thus
finite!) that it can "bet" on its incompleteness and thus go beyond
itself, escaping its solipsism.

Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
so that everything could function."

----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Craig Weinberg
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-09-13, 15:03:13
Subject: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

If anyone is not familiar with David Chalmers "Absent Qualia, Fading Qualia, Dancing 
Qualia" You should have a look at it first.

This thought experiment is intended to generalize principles common to both 
computationalism and functionalism so that the often confusing objections 
surrounding their assumptions can be revealed.

Say that we have the technology to scan the city of New York by means of 
releasing 100,000 specially fitted cats into the streets, which will return to 
the laboratory in a week's time with a fantastically large amount of data about 
what the cats see and feel, smell and taste, hear, their positions and 
movements relative to each other, etc.

We now set about computing algorithms to simulate the functions of Brooklyn 
such that we can tear down Brooklyn completely and replace it with a simulation 
which causes cats released into the simulated environment to behave in the same 
way as they would have according to the history of their initial release.

Indeed, cats in Manhattan travel to and from Brooklyn as usual. Perhaps to get 
this right, we had to take all of Brooklyn and grind it up in a giant blender 
until it becomes a paste of liquified corpses, garbage, concrete, wood, and 
glass, and then use this substrate to mold into objects that can be moved 
around remotely to suit the expectations of the cats.

Armed with the confidence of the feline thumbs-up, we go ahead and replace 
Manhattan and the other boroughs in the same way, effectively turning a city of 
millions into a cat-friendly cemetery. While the experiment is not a PR success 
(Luddites and Fundamentalists complain loudly about a genocide), our cats 
assure us that all is well and the experiment is a great success.





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