On Nov 13, 2012, at 12:53 PM, John Clark <[email protected]> wrote:
On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:29 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
> > As for what the Helsinki Man imagines will happen to him after
he pushes that button I really don't care because that depends
entirely on the particular personal beliefs of the man involved.
> That is non sense.
If he's a devout Muslim he believes he will go to heaven with 77
virgins when he pushes that button, but as I said I really don't
care what he believes will happen, I care about what will happen.
> > we find that the Washington man remembers being the Helsinki man
and remembers that man walking into the booth and being instantly
teleported to Washington where he is alive and well,
> OK. He feels alive and well, and he has kept his identity. he is
the Helsinki man.
Yes, but he is not the only Helsinki man because YOU HAVE BEEN
DUPLICATED, and that means the 1P view has been duplicated too, and
that means the 1P view from the 1P view has been duplicated too, and
that means the 1P view from the 1P view from the 1P view has been
duplicated too....
> So he can verify if his prediction done in Helsinki is correct. If
he predicted "Washington", that is correct, for him. If he predicted
"Moscow", that is incorrect for him, and if he predicted "Washington
and Moscow", that is incorrect for him (and for the other). If he
predicted "washington OR Moscow" that is correct for him,
Once upon a time there was a equation called X^2=2, and X always
wondered what number he would turn out to be, and then one day a
magical munchkin mathematician solved the equation and said that X
was plus 2 and minus 2. All was well until minus 2 said the
mathematician was wrong about who X was and that caused great strife
in the land. Minus 2 said he was the solution to the equation and
what's more he could prove it, and minus 2 said he was one and only
one number and he certainly wasn't plus 2, so the great
mathematician was wrong and was unable to predict what X would be.
Unfortunately the number plus 2 started making similar claims about
being the solution to the equation and got into a huge fight with
minus 2, but they all added up to nothing.
THE END
There once was a variable X having one and only one value. You ask
the computer to print (X^2) and the computer outputs "4". What do you
predict the computer will output when you tell it to print X?
Jason
> This comes from the fact that all notions involved, including the
notion of first person, in this setting, admits transparent third
person description, like the diary, the bodies, etc.
There is nothing in those diaries, nothing about the bodies and no
third party description that I failed to predict.
> localizing oneself in a city.
If a problem has 2 solutions that means it does not have one and
only one solution. How profound.
> you predicted W and M. But "W and M" never occurs.
Mr. Washington man are you also the Helsinki man? Yes. Are you now
in one and only one city and is that city Washington? Yes.
Mr. Moscow man are you also the Helsinki man? Yes. Are you now in
one and only one city and is that city Moscow? Yes.
Mr. Helsinki man, that is to say the guy who is still experiencing
Helsinki, are you still the Helsinki man? Only dead silence can be
heard as a answer.
And so "W and M" ALWAYS occurs, that is to say the Helsinki man from
the Helsinki man's viewpoint will be the Washington man and the
Helsinki man from the Helsinki man's viewpoint will be the Moscow
man. And the Helsinki man from the view of the guy who stayed in
Helsinki no longer has a viewpoint of any sort.
> You are still confusing "the guy in in this city" and "I feel now
to be in this city"
And you are still confused by the fact that "I" is no longer
singular because I HAS BEEN DUPLICATED AND SO HAS ALL OF I'S
VIEWPOINTS.
>> even if the Helsinki man was Bruno Marchal, even he made the
correct prediction. Bruno Marchal predicted that 2 people will feel
to be the Helsinki man and Bruno Marchal predicted that nobody will
be experiencing Helsinki anymore because the body there has been
destroyed, and Bruno Marchal predicted that both people who feel
like the Helsinki man will be experiencing one and only one city
> Yes. And the question was "which one?".
Which what? I guess you mean which person goes to which city, I
don't know what else you could mean. The answer is that the
Washington man goes to Washington and the Moscow man goes to Moscow.
Where is the indeterminacy?
>> The question demands a single answer but in this case there is
not one.
> This contradicts what you said above, that the guy knows in
advance, that whoever he will feel to be, he will feel to be in a
unique city. So there is a single answer
There would be a single answer if "he" were singular but it is not
because HE HAS BEEN DUPLICATED, and that means his viewpoint from
his viewpoint has been duplicated too.
"W or M, but I can't be sure of which one".
If I demand a single answer from the question "are human beings male
or female?" I will always be able to find a counterexample to prove
you wrong. Can you find any great philosophical significance from
that fact?
> The question is asked to the Helsinki man, before the experience
is done. The helsinki man does survive, by definition of comp, in
both Moscow and Washington.
I agree, so the answer to the Helsinki man's question is that he,
the Helsinki man, will survive in both Moscow AND Washington from
the Helsinki man's viewpoint.
John K Clark
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