On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 3:31 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy
<multiplecit...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 4:59 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 25 Jun 2013, at 16:04, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 25 Jun 2013, at 12:27, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't believe 9-11 was anything but a Jihadist conspiracy, not a Bush
>>> conspiracy. Bush was an enormously flawed elitist, who slightly rose above
>>> his station as prez. He really didn't benefit by 9-11,
>>>
>>>
>>> The goal was the patriot act and NDAA-like policy, I am afraid. I did not
>>> believe in conspiracy, because I thought the patriot act was temporary, but
>>> the NDAA makes it indefinite making the war on terror looking like the war
>>> on drug.
>>> You might be right, but as I said, the NDAA is even more scandalous than
>>> the drug policy, which is already a proof of "conspiracy/special interests".
>>> The NSA is non sense too.
>>> And the lack of transparency on 9/11 can only add suspicion.
>>>
>>> It begins to look clear to me that the drug wrong-doers are only
>>> protecting themselves. That both Saddam and Bin Laden were not captured
>>> alive is also quite astonishing. It has become hard for me to separate the
>>> prohibition scandal from the 9/11 unanswered questions.
>>>
>>> Since Nixon, the US democracy, and many others, seems to be completely
>>> perverted. There are many things which do not fit.
>>>
>>> Obama is Bush^Bush. I have stopped to believe in any difference between
>>> republicans and democrats. They both continue to defend the exact same
>>> special interests.
>>>
>>> Bruno
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> It's amazing how complex the hype around this makes everything seem,
>> masking quite simple things:
>>
>> Humans have always used war as a means to consolidate power and
>> accelerate/stimulate economic growth. In absence of a real foes and forced
>> to drop racism, humans turn to invent foes like terror, drugs, sexual
>> orientation, lifestyles, political tendencies, privacy through
>> cryptography... anything that will enable some reductionist marking of a
>> minority as "witch". Then print money without remorse because "we're saving
>> the world from itself".
>>
>> Yes, governments will make it hurt but the trivial fact of the matter
>> remains: people are more likely to die in mundane, banal circumstances like
>> cars/infections than via terror etc.
>>
>>
>> Dying because people lies purposefully on medication is a form of death by
>> terrorism. The 80.000 people who dies in mexico due to prohibition died also
>> from a sort of planned terror. Governments does not make it hurts, unless
>> they are criminals.
>
>
> I meant terror in the currently distorted, media-manipulated sense.
>
> The term terror gets thrown around so often, it's important to clarify what
> one means. But sure, in a stricter sense of terror meaning "incitement of
> fear to politically intimidate and force people", who is more of a
> terrorist:
>
> 1) The few fanatics and attacks that succeed in terrorizing unfortunate
> victims, including their families?
>
> 2) Hegemonic interests using such acts to incite fear and intimidate the
> rest of the world into increasing consolidation of its influence via complex
> laws, trade agreements etc?
>
>>
>> Even a non negligible number of people who die by car accident, are
>> indirect victims of the laws tolerating a drug which *is*  very dangerous
>> for car driven, and lying on others. Even the amount of CO_2 go up due to
>> the special interest in oil, as Henri Ford warned us right at the start.
>> But the worst, is that above some level of corruption, all criminals get
>> support, and are no more denounced in the press, it is the whole general
>> quality of everyone which pays the price. We can't even imagine any
>> politics, in the original sense of the term, making sense in such context.
>>
>
> Secrecy, privilege are difficult poisons, setting both stages for the best
> and worst of people (huge technological leaps, organized violence + war).
>
> Once somebody becomes aware of the histories and dynamics that have led them
> to some privileges, influence, and their secrets, legitimacy seems so
> convincing (being "winner" regarding something), that it is like asking some
> monkey to not grab a banana they are hungry for. The most addictive drug is
> harmless in comparison.
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Whatever Snowden's motives, he has his eye on the ball that matters when
>> he says:
>>
>> "We managed to survive greater threats in our history ... than a few
>> disorganized terrorist groups and rogue states without resorting to these
>> sorts of programs. It is not that I do not value intelligence, but that I
>> oppose ... omniscient, automatic, mass surveillance .... That seems to me a
>> greater threat to the institutions of free society than missed intelligence
>> reports, and unworthy of the costs."
>>
>>
>> Exactly. I find the NDAA quite more frightening than terrorism. NDAA is
>> planned state terrorism. I know that the supreme court try to resist it, but
>> it looks like 2013 has passed, and that it remains fuzzy in the important
>> passage.
>>
>
> NDAA can do what it does because we don't seem to grasp importance of the
> more counter intuitive notion that privacy means concealment of data that
> makes people vulnerable to painful relative truth, predatory behavior and
> this kind of opportunism. We need the "white lie" secret that protects
> people from harm not necessary.

One very real scenario is this: most people need employment to
survive. In the age of no privacy, _everything_ is up for scrutiny by
a potential employer. We've already heard of many stories where people
are asked to show their facebook accounts during a job interview. This
leads to a situation (already happening, I'm sure) where people
practice some form of self-censorship 100% of the time.

People might argue that if everything is transparent the playing field
will be level again. The problem here is that anyone can still
practice self-censorship and get an advantage, so the self-censorship
behaviour will become predominant quickly. This basically destroys
democratic legitimacy: everyone is lying about what they really think,
so the most odious regimes may stay in power _and_ maintain the
illusion of strong popular suport. A sphere of personal privacy is the
only antidote against this type of dystopia.

> Instead we assume that concealment entails something bad, a crime to hide.
> Ironically, this may be true with regard to mass surveillance without public
> consent. But as a comedian put it last week, this does not apply to
> individuals: "I'll walk up to an attractive woman on the street now and say:
> Please lift up your shirt... If she refuses, I'll point towards her and
> start screaming that she has something to hide!"
>
> More careful dialog, and frames of responsible privacy in complex,
> distributed, digital contexts is required.
>
> Yes, and Santa exists too... :)  PGC

I've been having this terrifying intuition that History took a "wrong
turn" sometime in the beginning of the 21st century and that there are
very dark times ahead. I don't think the signing of the NDAA was the
wrong turn per se, but maybe the absence of public revolt against this
abuse sealed or fate. If that didn't cross the line, nothing will.

Telmo.

>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> PGC
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> and he didn't pursue Bin Laden into Pakistan, in Dec 2001. Both Clinton
>>> and Bush were asleep at the wheel, Clinton because of ideology, Bush because
>>> he was, and is, naieve.
>>>
>>> Looking back to the OW organized protests of 2011 (now that OW is listed
>>> as a targeted group) I view the conflict between the police and OW, as an
>>> intra-family spat. One between unionized police who voted for BHO in 2008
>>> and OW which also voted for BHO in 2008. I am sure they both, by in large,
>>> voted the same way in 2012. It was an intra family conflict, and the
>>> Democratic party is quite used to this.
>>>
>>> Any more ideas on pc security? What about virtual desktops?
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
>>> To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
>>> Sent: Tue, Jun 25, 2013 5:51 am
>>> Subject: Re: How to protect your computer from spying by the IRS and Eric
>>> H. Holder, Jr.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 25 Jun 2013, at 08:14, Jason Resch wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 9:04 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> John, PGC,
>>>>
>>>> On 21 Jun 2013, at 02:24, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 11:08 PM, John Mikes <jami...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Let me interject in &-marked BOLD ITALICS lines into the texts of the
>>>>> posts below
>>>>> John M
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 1:54 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12 Jun 2013, at 21:03, meekerdb wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's still a free version of PGP available as GnuGP.  But people
>>>>>> generally don't want the inconvenience of dealing with encryption.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/12/2013 3:16 AM, Roger Clough wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How to protect your computer from spying by the IRS and Eric H.
>>>>>> Holder, Jr.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These days it seems that you need to protect yourself from more than
>>>>>> commercial vendors, namely spying by the IRS and Eric H. Holder, Jr.
>>>>>> Snowden, the man who recently exposed the NSA activities, says he can
>>>>>> from his desktop listen to your telephone and read your email.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But it would have been illegal for him to do so.  People are always
>>>>>> able to do illegal things.  The question is what preventive measures 
>>>>>> should
>>>>>> be taken.  Snowden was an IT tech who was just supposed to keep the 
>>>>>> system
>>>>>> running, so of course he had the ability to tap data flows.  But there
>>>>>> should have been some administrative oversight to keep him from doing 
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> beyond what was necessary for his work (and maybe there was).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The question is should it be legal for the government to collect this
>>>>>> data.  The Supreme Court has said it's Constitutional and polls say it's
>>>>>> favor 62% to 34% by the public, so...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> &- The overall collection of DATA is a hoax: only the addresses are
>>>>>> collected without court order.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's already not acceptable.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> The Hoopla is only political. The "majority" in the poll voted for
>>>>>> security: to eliminate potential violent acts by 'enemies'.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> NDAA + FBI makes many enemies. According to the FBI, to write a mail in
>>>> favor of the constitution makes you a "suspect of terrorism".
>>>>
>>>> I have mocked the "conspiracy 9/11 theory, despite the building 7, but I
>>>> have mocked also those who announce the NDAA. After Obama signed it, I am
>>>> just much less sure and more vigilant.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> The Copnstitution is a 300yo thinking in medieval terms, usable for
>>>>>> human principles, not the FACTS in our 21st c. life. I am a sharp 
>>>>>> critique
>>>>>> of the government(s), in this case they work in our behalf.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The problems is when the facts don't make sense.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/06/20/nsa-surveillance-fisa-court/2442899/
>>>>
>>>> The Guardian article + documents referred to in both links:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/20/fisa-court-nsa-without-warrant
>>>> PGC
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks guitar boy,
>>>>
>>>
>>> This interview on the subject is quite interesting:
>>> http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2013/06/19/podcast-show-112-nsa-whistleblower-goes-on-record-reveals-new-information-names-culprits/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It is very grave. The bandits get involve into a dark vicious circle.
>>> They know that we know, and so develop paranoid tricks aggravating their
>>> case, and their paranoïa, etc. All this is done to defend the top of a
>>> pyramidal corrupted (and international) clan, but they take into hostage a
>>> large part of the middle class and what subsist of democracy.
>>>
>>> They got power thanks to alcohol and then marijuana prohibition, but it
>>> is also their fatal error, because the lies become obvious.
>>>
>>> Now, to survive they have to control the net, but that is just
>>> impossible. They are doomed, but they will hurt a lot in the meantime.
>>>
>>> Bruno
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The US government is doing the dictator trick (NDAA 12, NDAA 13).
>>>>>> Those are not just non-constitutional they are anti-constitutional.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The human rights applies to all humans, or they lost their meaning.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The private life has to be respected for all humans.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It seems clear to me that prohibition has succeeded in putting bandits
>>>>>> into power, which makes legal or illegal things only for special 
>>>>>> interest.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Health should be separated from the state, like religion. Free
>>>>>> competition has to be allowed among all art of helping others, and nobody
>>>>>> can pretend for you what is good to you.
>>>>>
>>>>> &- Except if YOU require the community to PAY for the curing of YOUR
>>>>> sicknesses (maybe caused by YOUR own negligence) e.g. emphysema etc. by
>>>>> smoking.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I personally disagree with this. But it is out of topic.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some people do money on fears and catastrophes. The war on drug is a
>>>>>> golden mine for bandits and terrorists.
>>>>>> After the NDAA 12 I am afraid that the war on terror begins to look to
>>>>>> me suspiciously like the war on drug.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The notion legal/illegal must be relativized when the evidences add
>>>>>> that the government don't play with the rules.
>>>>>
>>>>> &- There is no "WAR ON TERROR" - nor ON DRUGS. There are 'efforts' and
>>>>> 'lies'. Against CERTAIN aspects.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The term "war on drug" has been introduced by Nixon, and exploited by
>>>> Reagan, and there is a "war on drugs", like there are many people sent in
>>>> jail for non violent crime related to possession of marijuana.
>>>> There is a "War on terror", since Bush junior.
>>>>
>>>> Since the start, the marijuana problem is a construct. the proof of a
>>>> danger have all been debunked, each time.
>>>> But today we know that real dangerous drug, when prohibited, become much
>>>> more dangerous, as they will be sold by criminals who will target the kids
>>>> and the sick people.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Others are accepted as 'money making' endeavours. The governments play
>>>>> by their own rules, not with rules of anybody else. Governments ar
>>>>> exploitative ensembles.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> When a governments lies systematically on a subject, it means they
>>>> defend special interests, and not the interest of those who elected it, 
>>>> that
>>>> hurts everybody.
>>>>
>>>> Bruno
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bruno
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> &- John M
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brent
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group.
>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>>>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group.
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> Groups "Everything List" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> Groups "Everything List" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>> "Everything List" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>>> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>> "Everything List" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>>> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>> "Everything List" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>>> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>> "Everything List" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>>> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Everything List" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Everything List" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Everything List" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.


Reply via email to