On Sat, Oct 26, 2013 at 3:58 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

> >>>>> Do you think that [you] die in a self-duplication experience?
>>>>
>>>                                        ^^^
>>> >>>> We've been  through this, it depends on who the hell "you" is. Is
>>> "you" the guy who remembers being John Clark yesterday,
>>>
>>
>> >>> We have already agree that "you" concerns the guy(s) who will
>> remember having been in Helsinki.
>>
>
> >> Fine, then obviously "You" will survive and equally obvious "you" will
> see BOTH Moscow AND Washington.
>
> > In the third person view on the 1-views, yes. But
>

Ah yes, the all important "but". Bruno Marchal gave a crystal clear
non-ambiguous meaning to the pronoun "you", the same one that John Clark
prefers, namely ""you" concerns the guy(s) who will remember having been in
Helsinki" ; but now Bruno Marchal is back-peddling because if the meaning
of "you" is that clear then the flaws in Bruno Marchal's ideas become
obvious. Thus it is necessary to muddy the waters with a bunch of pee pee.

So if Bruno Marchal asks again "Do you think that [you] die in a
self-duplication experience?" John Clark will give the exact same answer
that John Clark gave before, " it depends on who the hell "you" is".


> > You are the one keeping an ambiguity by never distinguishing the 1p and
> 3p view,
>

If the meaning of the personal pronoun "you" is ambiguous then the
difference between the 1p and 3p view is equally ambiguous.

> you fail to address the question.
>

John Clark has addressed it and there has never been more than one
fundamental question in all this, what is the clear consistent unambiguous
meaning of the personal pronoun "you"?  John Clark has an answer to that
and for a short time Bruno Marchal did too, but then Bruno Marchal got cold
feet and abandoned it because with things that clear bad ideas have nowhere
to hide.

  John K Clark






>
>
>
>
>
>  >>  or the guy who is seeing Helsinki right now
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>> > You can take this one, as we know that such a guy will survive the
>>> duplication (assuming comp).
>>>
>>
>>
>>> >> or the guy that will see Washington tomorrow,
>>>>
>>>
>> > Yes, it concerns also that guy, given that he has survived and he
>>> remembers being the H-guy.
>>>
>>
>>
>>> >> or the guy that will see Moscow tomorrow?
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>> > Same.
>>
>>
> Fine, then obviously "You" will survive and equally obvious "you" will see
> BOTH Moscow AND Washington.
>
>
> Not in the first person pov, on which bear the question.
>
>
>
> And don't come back and repeat the irrelevant fact that each copy will see
> only one city because, if as Bruno Marchal said,  " "you" concerns the
> guy(s) who will remember having been in Helsinki" then it is beyond dispute
> that "you" will see both cities.
>
>
> True, but only from a third pov stance looking from outside to the two
> copies, but that is not what has been asked. Indeed; if you use your
> reasoning to predict that "you" will see both cities, both copies will
> refute it, as they see that they see only one city. The H-guy can reason
> from comp to predict that P(he will see only once city) is one.
>
>
>
> And don't come back with a bunch of pee pee stuff unless the ideas can be
> expressed without indeterminate pronouns to hide behind.
>
>
> The reasoning concerns person and the pronouns does not lead to any
> problem when make clear the difference between first and third person, that
> you avoid, apparently to evade the simple conclusion.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>  John K Clark
>
>
>
>
>
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> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>
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