If what I said were absurd you would have not responded so quickly and so seriously. Sorry if I offended your faith. That was an experiment.
2013/12/1 Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]> > > > > 2013/12/1 Alberto G. Corona <[email protected]> > > As I said to Telmo talking about sacrifices somewhere above, individual >> sacrifices are the only way to create trust among non cloning entities. >> And what higher sacrifice than to negate'what is screaming in his mind, in >> the universe and in everithing? That is the main sacrifice of the atheists. >> > > Nothing is screaming in my mind, in the universe and everything... I > sacrifice nothing. > > Quentin > > >> >> >> 2013/12/1 Samiya Illias <[email protected]> >> >>> We exist, then why should we reject the idea of having been created, >>> just because we are unable to comprehend or define our Creator? Is that not >>> intellectual dishonesty? >>> >>> Samiya >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On 01-Dec-2013, at 3:33 AM, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> > On 11/30/2013 10:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> >> Brent, >>> >> >>> >> I hope you don't mind I re-answer this. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> On 28 Nov 2013, at 21:19, meekerdb wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I can conceive of (with apologies to H. L. Mencken), Agdistis or >>> Angdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura Mazda, Alberich, Allah, Amaterasu, An, Anansi, >>> Anat, Andvari, Anshar, Anu, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apsu, Ares, Artemis, >>> Asclepius, Athena, Athirat, Athtart, Atlas, Baal, Ba Xian, Bacchus, Balder, >>> Bast, Bellona, Bergelmir, Bes, Bixia Yuanjin, Bragi, Brahma, Brent, Brigit, >>> Camaxtli, Ceres, Ceridwen, Cernunnos, Chac, Chalchiuhtlicue, Charun, >>> Chemosh, Cheng-huang, Clapton, Cybele, Dagon, Damkina (Dumkina), Davlin, >>> Dawn, Demeter, Diana, Di Cang, Dionysus, Ea, El, Enki, Enlil, Eos, Epona, >>> Ereskigal, Farbauti, Fenrir, Forseti, Fortuna, Freya, Freyr, Frigg, Gaia, >>> Ganesha, Ganga, Garuda, Gauri, Geb, Geong Si, Guanyin, Hades, Hanuman, >>> Hathor, Hecate (Hekate), Helios, Heng-o (Chang-o), Hephaestus, Hera, >>> Hermes, Hestia, Hod, Hoderi, Hoori, Horus, Hotei, Huitzilopochtli, >>> Hsi-Wang-Mu, Hygeia, Inanna, Inti, Iris, Ishtar, Isis, Ixtab, Izanaki, >>> Izanami, Jesus, Juno, Jehovah, Jupiter, Juturna, Kagutsuchi, Kartikeya, >>> Khepri, Ki, Kingu, Kinich Ahau, Kishar, Krishna, Kuan-yin, Kukulcan, >>> Kvasir, Lakshmi, Leto, Liza, Loki, Lugh, Luna, Magna Mater, Maia, Marduk, >>> Mars, Mazu, Medb, Mercury, Mimir, Min, Minerva, Mithras, Morrigan, Mot, >>> Mummu, Muses, Nammu, Nanna, Nanna (Norse), Nanse, Neith, Nemesis, Nephthys, >>> Neptune, Nergal, Ninazu, Ninhurzag, Nintu, Ninurta, Njord, Nugua, Nut, >>> Odin, Ohkuninushi, Ohyamatsumi, Orgelmir, Osiris, Ostara, Pan, Parvati, >>> Phaethon, Phoebe, Phoebus Apollo, Pilumnus, Poseidon, Quetzalcoatl, Rama, >>> Re, RheaSabazius, Sarasvati, Selene, Shiva, Seshat, Seti (Set), Shamash, >>> Shapsu, Shen Yi, Shiva, Shu, Si-Wang-Mu, Sin, Sirona, Sol, Surya, Susanoh, >>> Tawaret, Tefnut, Tezcatlipoca, Thanatos, Thor, Thoth, Tiamat, Tianhou, >>> Tlaloc, Tonatiuh, Toyo-Uke-Bime, Tyche, Tyr, Utu, Uzume, Vediovis, Venus, >>> Vesta, Vishnu, Volturnus, Vulcan, Xipe, Xi Wang-mu, Xochipilli, >>> Xochiquetzal, Yam, Yarikh, YHWH, Ymir, Yu-huang, Yum Kimil and Zeus. But I >>> see no reason to believe any of them exist. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> So the question is: do you see a reason to disbelieve all of them? >>> > >>> > I didn't say I "disbelieved", I said I saw no reason to believe in >>> them. I *fail* to believe in them. I think of "belief" as admitting >>> degrees. I disbelieve in them FAPP, i.e. if I have to act I will act as if >>> they didn't exist. But I cited the list to contradict your idea that >>> conceiving of gods makes it harder to disbelieve in God. I think it is the >>> other way around; it's harder to disbelieve in something undefined. Which >>> makes me wonder how you can be so dogmatic that fundamental matter does not >>> exist? >>> > >>> > >>> >> What if the list just missed the one that exists? >>> >> >>> >> As far as I know, honestly, it seems to me that only Ganesh, or >>> Ganesha, is incompatible with comp. >>> >> >>> >> I really love Ganesh, though, perhaps for that very reason. When kid, >>> Ganesh made his father angry and the angry father cut Ganesh's head, and >>> threw it away. Her mother was *very* angry, and ordered the father do find >>> a new head quickly, and the father, in the hurry, cut the head of of the >>> first elephant passing by, and that is why Ganesh has an elephant head >>> (which reminds me of the cuttlefish which I love even more). >>> >> >>> >> I guess you see the problem with comp. It is a version of the >>> brain-exchanged thought experience. But is it really contradictory with >>> comp? That's needs the thought experiences with (degrees of) amnesia, and >>> addressing the question who are we and how many person really exist. >>> >> >>> >> But how could I argue about Ohyamatsumi or RheaSabazius, Tlaloc? I >>> would need to study their stories to conclude. >>> >> >>> >> Also, it looks that list misses the divinities that you can met by >>> smoking some herb, like the four kanobo Gods, and Daunarani, ... with >>> tobacco, or simply Maria, you know, the Mother of God, that you can meet >>> with Salvia (according to the Christian Mazatecs). >>> >> >>> >> There is no algorithm capable of deciding of two machines computes or >>> not the same function, so you can imagine the difficulties with the >>> nameable non machines, or gods and goddesses. >>> >> >>> >> And the big one, cannot be in such a list, I guess. >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> We might try to decide on a definition of "atheism", as that >>> notion is very unclear, and I have rarely obtain a definition on which >>> atheists agreed. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> It's as clear as the negation of 'theist'. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> But "theist" is not clear. >>> >>> >>> >>> My point exactly. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> But if you agree that "theist" is not clear, you agree that "atheist" >>> is not clear either. >>> > >>> > But "theist" is only unclear because you suppose that you can cite >>> some ancient philosopher as *really* defining "theism". I accept the >>> modern theory of dictionaries that meanings are defined by usage; and the >>> usage of "God" is a superperson who created the world, wants to be >>> worshipped, and judges, rewards and punishes. >>> > >>> >> It creates an opposition where I see beliefs everywhere, and good >>> willing people trying to understand each others, mixed with people who >>> insult instead. >>> >> >>> >> I have many sympathy for many atheists, and I share with them >>> important ideas, like no artificial magic, occam razor, rationalism, and >>> the anticleralism, and the "anti-autoritarism" (of the first one), but they >>> get trapped in* believing* they have solved the theological question, or >>> trapped in the deny that there was even a question, leading to a form of >>> "don't ask", which slow down the possible progresses, and becomes an >>> autoritarist meme by itself. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Some identify "God" with the God of their own culture. In science, >>> we try to get a concept as independent of human and culture as possible. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> I use "God" in the greek sense of Truth (the one that we can >>> search about us, or hope or fear, in life and afterlife, whatever it is). >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Except nobody here is speaking Greek. And the Greeks had plenty >>> of gods that had nothing to do with truth; in fact they were given to >>> deception. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> I was of course alluding to the greek (neo)platonists. They did >>> invented the God used by both the abramanic cultures (even if terribly >>> deformed, notably by the abandon of science about it, and the use of >>> authoritative arguments, by Christians, Muslims, and perhaps by the Jewish >>> (with Maimonides, to some extent). >>> >>> >>> >>> Christianity, specifically Aquinas and Augustine, tried to merge >>> Greek philosophy into the Jewish Messianic religion of Christianity. But >>> the abrahamic religions owe far more to the Babylonian, Egyptian, and >>> Zoroastrian religions than to Greek. >>> >> >>> >> OK. But let us not confuse the terrestrial implementation of the >>> religious process and the true relations that machines can have with truth. >>> > >>> > But you are exactly the person confusing them in your writing (if not >>> your thoughts) by using language of religions to express simple >>> mathematical ideas. >>> > >>> > Brent >>> > >>> > >>> >> As I said, thanks to Babbage, Turing, Post, Church, discoveries of >>> the universal numbers, we get an interesting "simple" Number Theology, >>> which can be used as an etalon in comparative theology. >>> >> >>> >> In the first match Plato 1 and Aristotle 0. >>> >> >>> >> It is not the last match in the comp soccer cup! >>> >> >>> >> Bruno >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>> > >>> > -- >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Alberto. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > > > -- > All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy > Batty/Rutger Hauer) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
