On 12/31/2013 1:57 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 30 Dec 2013, at 23:32, meekerdb wrote:

On 12/30/2013 2:20 PM, Jason Resch wrote:

On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 4:45 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote:

    On 12/30/2013 1:29 PM, Jason Resch wrote:

    On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 3:57 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net
    <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote:

        On 12/30/2013 12:04 PM, Jason Resch wrote:

        On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 2:41 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net
        <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote:

            On 12/30/2013 11:17 AM, Jason Resch wrote:

            On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 2:00 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net
            <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote:

                On 12/30/2013 3:09 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
                But that's essentially everything, since everything is
                (presumably) quantum.  But notice the limitation of quantum
                computers, if it has N qubits it takes 2^N complex numbers to
                specify its state, BUT you can only retrieve N bits of
                information from it (c.f. Holevo's theorem).  So it doesn't
                really act like 2^N parallel computers.

                OK, but nobody pretended the contrary.  You can still extract N
                bits depending on the 2^N results, by doing some Fourier 
                on all results obtained in "parallel universes". This means that
                the 2^N computations have to occur in *some* sense.

                But they pretend that the number 2^N is so large that it cannot
                exist in whole universe, much less in that little quantum 
                and therefore there must be other worlds which contain these
                enormous number of bits.  What Holevo's theorem shows is the one
                can regard all those interference terms as mere calculation
                fictions in going from N bit inputs to N bit outputs.

            Can such "calculation fictions" support conciousness?  That's the 
            question.  If they can, then you can't avoid many-worlds (or at 
            many minds).

            Why is that "the real question"? Saying yes to the doctor implies 
that a
            classical computer can support consciousness.

        Because with computationalism, if a quantum computer runs the 
        that support a mind, there would be many resulting conscious states, and
        first person views.

        Of course that is assuming the very proposition you're arguing.

    No, I am trying to show that given computationalism, there is nothing 
    about these computations. They would have very bit the same power to yield
    consciousness as the computations of a classical computer.  Do you disagree 

    I'm not sure what you mean by "power";


    whether it means effectively or potentially?  I don't think consciousness 
    least like ours) can occur except in the context of a quasi-classical world.

Each of the myriad of computations executed in the quantum computer can be seen as separate classical computations. I agree classical computation is what is behind consciousness, so if quantum computation is the superposition of many classical computations,

But that's a very questionable assumption. If it were literally true then N qubits could do as much a 2^N classical computers, but they can't.

That does not follow. They can't because QM predicts that they can't interact, but the interference needs them to exist, in some/*physical non fictitious sense*/.

That's pretty funny coming from you, Bruno.  :-)

Without adding a selection principle, like a collapse, I don't see why self-aware creature in those branches would lost their consciousness.

The question is why are "they" not us. We remain self-aware while the quantum computer factors a number, so we're self-aware creatures in the same branch.

The "quantum computations" are not just classical computations being done in parallel because they have to interfere to produce an answer.

So you agree that they are computations in parallel.

Sure. I'm just doubtful they constitute "a world".

Then we cannot exploit the results obtained in the parallel world directly, as we would lost the information in the other branch, but by changing the base of the outcome-analyser, we can still exploit some amount of information from the results obtained in *all* other branches (like seeing if they are all equal, or not).

Effectively that's how most quantum computations work, they don't guarantee the right answer, only a statistically probable answer. So we're relying on the agreement of a lot of parallel processes to interfere constructively on the right answer.


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