Dear Brent, Consider the Virtual Machine. A an algorithm that emulated hardware for another algorithm to run on.
On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 4:42 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote: > On 1/19/2014 4:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 18 Jan 2014, at 05:27, LizR wrote: > > On 18 January 2014 17:16, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote: > >> On 1/17/2014 5:40 PM, LizR wrote: >> >> But apparently the brain has a lot to do with those computations in >>> Platonia, c.f. anesthetic. Notice that I'm not a disciple of Platonia. >>> >> >> Me neither, I am agnostic - but within comp it is assumed, so while >> discussing comp we have to assume it (unless we're rejecting comp on that >> basis). But I can see that Platonia makes sense in that 17 does seem to be >> prime idependently of you and me and everyone else, which is (I'm told) >> enough for the whole shebang to come into some sort of existence. >> >> >> I don't think you have to buy the equivalence between (17 is prime) is >> true and (17 is prime) exists. In fact Bruno always says you only have to >> believe the first for his argument to succeed. But then he slips in the UD >> and it seems that every truth of arithmetic implies and existence. I think >> this is the same problem as step 8. If everything has to be simulated, >> then there's no difference between simulated and real. If I'm "really" >> existing in an infinity of world/simulations that are *just like this one >> up to now* - then they ARE this one (c.f. Leibniz). >> >> Well, I haven't managed to get my head around step 8, at least, not if > step 8 is the MGA? (Or maybe I did, if it isn't....) > > > May be there is a simpler argument than step 8 (MGA). It is the fact > that you need magical (non Turing emulable) matter for a machine being able > to distinguish "real matter" (what could be that?) from its an arithmetical > emulation. > > > Not if the machine is made of "real matter". I think a machine made of > arithmetic can only count numbers as "real matter". > > Brent > > > So, even without the MGA, you can understand that the notion of "real > matter" can only be a reification of an unknown (real matter) to prevent > the use of a simple theory. This makes already the "real matter argument" > like a creationist god-of-the-gap. > MGA just extends this in showing that not only that "real matter" is a > reification, but that it needs some quite ad hoc components. Not all > philosophers are against reification, so MGA makes the absurdity of doing > that reification (in this context) much more palpable. > > > > > > > I suppose what I need to know is how the existence (in any sense) of the > integers and elementary arithmetic operations creates computations. > > > Yes, that is a key point. It is not simple to explain, although more or > less standard in mathematical logic. > > The problem here is that we must distinguish between a computation and a > description of a computation, and understand that if RA can prove the > existence of a computation only through the existence of a description of a > computation, then the computation exists. This is subtle because it needs > to see well the difference between syntaxical sentences and semantical > statements, ... > We can come back on this. It is well done in some books. > > > > > In fact every possible computation. I believe it's done indexically, > whatever that means ... but I think this is about where I start to feel I > shouldn't bother my pretty little head. > > If the sheer existence of numbers, + and x implies that all possible > computations "exist "(in an abstract sense) then it all follows - in an > abstract sense. > > > Yes, and the concrete experience will exist too, in that abstract sense, > and that's is enough for the existence of indexically concrete experience. > Tegmark is right on this (but not original in the prior publication sense). > > > > This brings me back to your comment about equivalence (or not). The > thing is, I'd like to know what I'm buying or not buying before I decide > whether to buy it! > > > You need to buy only two things: "yes doctor" and Church thesis. AR is > implicit in Church thesis (and in the whole of science, I would add). > > Bruno > > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/everything-list/TBc_y2MZV5c/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- Kindest Regards, Stephen Paul King Senior Researcher Mobile: (864) 567-3099 stephe...@provensecure.com http://www.provensecure.us/ “This message (including any attachments) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is non-public, proprietary, privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law or may be constituted as attorney work product. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, notify sender immediately and delete this message immediately.” -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
