On 31 Jul 2015, at 21:39, John Clark wrote:
On Fri, Jul 31, 2015 at 5:05 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
>> If "you" doesn't mean remembering being a man in Helsinki
then I ask for the 9999 time, what the hell does the personal
pronoun "you" mean? If Bruno is unable to give a coherent answer to
that question, and by now it's pretty clear that Bruno can not, then
please stop using that word when trying to tackle issues like
personal identity or the unique feeling of self.
> You makes me say what I did not say. I repeat: "you"
meant, since always, "remembering being the man in Helsinki".
What I said, is that the definition, which I use, does not determine
the 1p.
Well of course it doesn't determine THE 1p because in a world with
people duplicating machines there is no such thing as THE 1p.
Then you die with the simple teleportation.
Of course there is a "the", even two, but only one is avaiblae for
both copies, and that is there is indetermination on the outcome of
the experience. The *the* is the one among {W, M} that you will live.
The question was "what do you expect to live when you will push on the
button", asked to your before the duplication (so, as you said
yourself, not ambiguous at all).
Let us count the subjective experiences available: two.
But you have agreed that they are incompatible, so you know that for
any first person experience pov, it will be like only one of the
outcome has been made available. As W and M are incompatible (they
refers to the two 1p experiences by definition) we can way that W v M
is equivalent with ((W & ~M) v (M & ~W)).
> You can be in both city, but you will feel in once city.
Who can be in both cities but you will feel in one city?
The guy who was in Helsinki and will remember that.
He can and will be in both city, but from their first person point of
view they both live ((W & ~M) v (M & ~W)).
Even ((W & ~M) v (M & ~W)) & (~(W & M)).
>>>> The guy has been duplicated, there is no such thing as "
the 1p".
>>> It is, obviously, the 1p that you will live in
>> The 1p that who will live in?
> You,
And who is "you"? The 1p that you will live in. And who is
"you" again? The person that has the 1p. And who has this 1p? You.
And round and round we go.
Lol
So at this point why would Bruno continue to use that personal
pronoun? There can only be one reason, because it is the
only word with sufficient ambiguity to cover the gargantuan
logical gaps in Bruno's argument.
Asserting a proposition many times works when you are hunting a Snark,
but is useless as long as you don't show the gap. All last attempts
are repetition of changing the question.
Gargantuan logical gaps? You can be sure that if there was a nano-gap,
we would know it since long.
both will admit they got one bit of information.
>> That is not new information. Even before the
reconstitution boxes have been opened I (there was still only one
John Clark then, so "I" is not ambiguous) knew that when those doors
were opened one John Clark would receive photons from Moscow and one
John Clark would receive photons from Washington. And I also knew
which one would be which, I knew the Moscow Man would get his
photons from Moscow and the Washington Man would get his photons
from Washington. Nothing new has been learned.
> This confirms that you don't listen to what they say. because
this, if correct would make the prediction "W & M", and both copies
refute it.
One copy would refute it but both copies confirm it.
In linear logic, I might accept that, but again, it will be a 3-1
description, which is trivial.
The question is what do you (or anyone) could expect to live when you
or anyone are in Helsinki, before pushing on the button?
The answer that you gave us: " I expect W and I expect M" has already
been explained as correct for some outsider description, but is not a
description of a personal experience available. I remind you that you
agreed that the W and M experience are incompatible. The *experience*
W & M is false in both places.
Got the strong feeling that you persist in never listening to your
selves after the copy (optimistic view).
Or maybe, like most believe, that you fake being unable to listen to
your selves (pessimistic view).
Bruno
John K Clark
>>And how many cities will those two yous observe from the
first person? John Clark believes the answer is 2.
Again you say a triviality in the 3p description, and a
contradiction *for* the 1p perspective, when seen *from* the 1p-
perspective, which was the point of the question.
If duplicating chambers are involved there is no such thing as
the 1p perspective when seen from the 1p-perspective. One
perspective has just as much a right to be called "first" as
another.
The point is that for both copies, each experience is exclusive of
the other, and so from both their 1p views, the "the" made in
Helsinki if sensical. Again, that is pretty obvious if you iterate
the duplication.
> You try hard to blur the 1p/3p distinction
Don't be an ass. The trouble isn't the distinction between 1p and
3p, the trouble is the distinction between the 1p and a 1p.
Then use "a 1p", as it works as well to get the indeterminacy of the
subjective experiences---*all* the subjectives experienceS, which
all get one bit of information at each duplication, as they will all
confirm.
You might be inspired to try to find a mistake in step 4-8, as you
fail on step 3. On step 3 you are just successfully proving the
vastness of your bad faith, and your diminishing ability to renew
your handwaving technic and rhetorical means.
Bruno
John K Clark
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