On 5/9/2019 4:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 4 May 2019, at 02:28, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
On 5/3/2019 1:35 PM, Terren Suydam wrote:
On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 4:19 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
On 5/3/2019 11:44 AM, Terren Suydam wrote:
On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 1:10 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything
List <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
I think that is right. But when you consider some
simplified cases, e.g. a computation written out on paper
(or Bruno's movie graph) it becomes apparent that
consciousness must ultimately refer to other things.
Right, the movie graph argument shows that consciousness
doesn't supervene on physical computation. Nevertheless, the
character of my consciousness still corresponds with the kind
of cybernetic system implemented by e.g. my brain and body, as
instantiated by the infinity of programs going through my state.
What makes it "your state"? It's just a bunch of programs. Why
those programs and not others?
It's the set of programs that implements the body/brain used to
construct my inner world.
But that doesn't explain why there is such a thing as "your inner
world" that is separate from "my inner world". Why don't the
programs produce overlapping or mixing "inner worlds".
Much is made of "self-awareness" but this is usually just
having an internal model of one's body, or social standing
or some other model of the self. It is not consciousness
of consciousness...that is only a temporal reflection: "I
was conscious just now."
I see it a little differently. The self-model/ego is a
higher-order construct that organizes the system in a holistic
way.
? That sounds like a kind of dualism. You're postulating
something that creates a "higher-order construct". If you're
following Bruno's idea things have to just come out of the UD
threads. There's nothing to create anything more.
For the self-image construct, I mean 'construct' in the same way
that anything we learn is a construct. The self-image represents a
higher-order construct on top of the types of constructs that, say,
a dog might employ. A dog has a self-image of a certain type, but
with humans (for whom I'll call the self-image 'ego' to
differentiate from animal self-image), the ego's construction is
conceptual and requires language. The ego is a narrative, and that
narrative acts to organize the system as a whole.
We take this for granted - it's the water we swim in - but our
minds are radically re-organized as children by the taught
narrative that we have an identity
You don't have teach a kid he has an identity. He knows who's
hungry. He has a view point.
Just like a dog. But a kid knows his name (learned) and can answer
the question, "why did you do that?". The answer to that question is
also largely learned. We are told who to be, what's right, wrong,
appropriate, taboo, etc., for the culture we grow up in. IOW why I
do something is filtered through learned cultural constructs. Most
of the time the answer amounts to a justification in terms of what's
appropriate, logical, or some other descriptor that benefits me in
some way relative to the implicit values I'm socialized to. This
form of self-image is of a higher order than whatever self-image my
dog has.
I don't disagree with any of that, but I don't see that any of it is
entailed by there being the infinite programs of the UD.
Doesn't the UD include all it's computations, which are not only
infinite but uncountable.
Brent
Just to be precise, all programs are finite. The universal
programs/machine/number are finite. The UD is a finite object, a
number itself.
The computations can be infinite. Like "being prime” has an infinite
extension (meaning).
Whatever 3-p things does the UD, is provable in Robinson arithmetic.
The 1p-things of the machine do escape the ontological realities.
Arithmetic seen from inside is infinitely bigger and complex than the
3p arithmetic. The Löbian machine all know this already.
Bruno
Brent
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>.
To post to this group, send email to [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
an email to [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>.
To post to this group, send email to [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
To view this discussion on the web visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/6D072486-E78C-4164-938B-AAC75C56DC81%40ulb.ac.be
<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/6D072486-E78C-4164-938B-AAC75C56DC81%40ulb.ac.be?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
to [email protected].
To post to this group, send email to [email protected].
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
To view this discussion on the web visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/f3470b9d-6629-1e81-ccb3-4f8fb2d826f0%40verizon.net.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
