> On 3 May 2019, at 20:48, [email protected] wrote: > > > > Consciousness "executing" in an immaterial (nonphysical) realm is what > Christians call Heaven. God made this place.
God is that place. But it is no more than (sigma_1) arithmetical truth. The christian believe in Matter, and either use it as a god, or introduce a god above, but none of those ideas can work with mechanism. You need infinities in the ontology, and why introduce them to just avoid that some machine can think. > > Mormons have a more material afterlife idea, I think. “Apparently material”, yes. Digital Machines too. Bruno > > @philipthrift > > > > On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 12:10:04 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > I think that is right. But when you consider some simplified cases, e.g. a > computation written out on paper (or Bruno's movie graph) it becomes apparent > that consciousness must ultimately refer to other things. Much is made of > "self-awareness" but this is usually just having an internal model of one's > body, or social standing or some other model of the self. It is not > consciousness of consciousness...that is only a temporal reflection: "I was > conscious just now." In general terms we could say consciousness is > awareness of the evironment, where that includes one's body. Damasio > identifies emotions as awareness of the bodies state. The point is that the > stuff of which we are aware and which we find agreement with other people's > awareness is what we infer to be the physical world. It might be possible to > be conscious in some sense without a physical world, but it would be > qualitatively different. > > Brent > > On 5/3/2019 6:27 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: >> One way to get around this is to hold that consciousness is associated with >> the way information is processed. This is substrate independent - the fact >> that a brain is physical is beside the point. You could implement a brain in >> software, and insofar as the same kinds of information processing occur, it >> would be conscious in the same kind of way. >> >> I find this idea compelling because it makes the link between brains and >> consciousness without requiring matter, and provides a framework for >> understanding consciousnesses of other kinds of machines. All that's >> required is to assume there is something it is like for computation to occur. >> >> Terren >> >> On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 2:26 AM <[email protected] <javascript:>> wrote: >> >> >> On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 8:03:52 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> On 5/2/2019 4:55 PM, [email protected] <> wrote: >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 5:37:26 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 5/2/2019 11:39 AM, [email protected] <> wrote: >>>> >>>> Apparently matter is not "reducible" to just the physics a couple of >>>> particles. >>> >>> Then you're not a materialist. You think there is matter plus something >>> else, that everyone calls "mind", but you're going to call it "matter" and >>> add it to everyone else's list of matter so you can still call yourself a >>> materialist. >>> >>> Brent >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> But everything reducing to the physics of particles is thought of as >>> physicalism (not materialism): >>> Physicalism and materialism >>> >>> Reductive physicalism >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductive_physicalism>...is normally assumed >>> to be incompatible with panpsychism. Materialism >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism>, if held to be distinct from >>> physicalism, is compatible with panpsychism insofar as mental properties >>> >> >> What mental properties? intention? reflection? remembering? That's what I >> mean by saying attributing "experience" to matter is an unprincipled >> half-measure. >> >> Brent >> >> >> Brains are matter, just as livers, legs, trees, tables, rocks, comets, >> planets, stars, cockroaches, galaxies, bacteria .. are matter. >> >> Brains produce intentions, reflections, remembrances, ... . >> >> So (at least some) matter of the cosmos has psychical (mental) properties. >> >> The body+mind idea, the idea that mind is something separate from body, is >> perhaps the worst idea ever invented. >> >> @philipthrift > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list > <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/C4D48901-9362-4EBB-8ED1-FB962C932E94%40ulb.ac.be. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
