Hi Charles,

Smile. You have definitely  raised several good points, and let me
say that programmers have asked the same types of questions and have
designed a few solutions for the problem. These days a majority of
software is moving towards    languages like  C# .Net, Java, and
Python precisely because those languages run  atop a   virtual
machine, runtime environment, that acts as the middleman between your
application and the  operating  system.   The idea being that if there
is  a compatible runtime environment for your platform the application
should run on that system without being recompiled regardless of type
of CPU or operating system. Sun Micro System's Star Office is a prime
example of a popular business application written in pure Java that
runs on Mac, Linux, Solaris, and Windows  without requiring separate
builds for each.  It is for that exact kind of portability why
Microsoft   converted Visual Basic to the .Net platform as to be able
to  write once and target any CPU or platform on demand without a lot
of  rewriting, compiling, or updating in mind. While I'm sure
Microsoft didn't intend this its possible to run some VB .Net apps on
Linux and Mac using the Mono Framework, an open source clone of .Net,
which is more or less  compatible with  apps compiled for ther .Net
2.0 and .Net 3.0 frameworks. Although, C# .Net is generally the
language of choice for people using Mono to develope cross-platform

However, the bottom line here is that there are realistic work arounds
for the problem being developed. Its there for the taking if a
developer wants to use those technologies. Its exactly for that reason
that older languages like VB 6 are dying out among professionals, and
are rapidly being replaced by alternatives like .Net.  Its not just a
matter of this is new and VB 6 is old, but in todays world it makes
sense to try and adopt a technology like Java or C# .Net that allows
you to design something that is more or less cross-platform compatible
and resolve the problem of what CPU, operating system, etc to support
by accessing   it  through a  runtime environment rather than the
target platform directly.

Here is a great example of this in action. I don't know if you know
this but the 7128 games, their gamebook is written in Java. One day I
was curious if it would run on Linux so I installed Java 1.4.2, built
and installed  the Java  Access Bridge for Linux, and ran the 7128
gamebook. It ran with no problems on Linux. Although, 7128 have
specific Mac and Windows versions I've discovered with a little work
their games can be made to run on Linux too. Its a bit harder to make
a game written in VB 6 run on Linux as it  requires a Windows emulator
like wine, a boat load of dependencies to be installed, and even then
there are cases like Shades of Doom that will  crash under wine for no
apparent reason.


On 6/9/11, Charles Rivard <woofer...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I might get some geeky answers to this, and I might not.  Anyway, this whole
> issue about what programming language should or should not be used, and why
> or why not, is interesting to me, but might not be to others.  What it boils
> down to, to me, is this:  A program, or in this case a computer game, is
> what?  It's a set of instructions that the programmer wants a computer to
> read, process, and follow based on the commands given by the end user.  Does
> the end user care about the language used to instruct their computer?  No.
> The end user cares about whether their computer does or does not interpret
> the programmer's instructions correctly.  Does this game, regardless of how
> it was written operate as it should on my computer?  That's what counts.  If
> a programmer writes programs that won't work on my PC, I'm not going to want
> more programs from that programmer.  The industry dictates that I buy a new
> machine that is capable of using the most up to date operating system, and
> now all the games I have spent my money on, and the games I have gotten at
> no charge won't work on the newest technology.  So, I buy the new PC.  What
> about all this fun software of the past?  It's obsolete.  It's useless.
> Now, games are designed to work with Windows 7, which I have.  Will they
> work on Windows 12 10 years from now?  Here we go again.  And it doesn't
> stop.  I don't think that "Shoot #'97" would work on the PC I currently
> have.  It was a fun game, though.  Wouldn't it be great if there were such a
> program as a language converter that could translate a program that won't
> work on your new system into something that would?  There are so many
> programming languages, each with it's good and bad points, you probably
> couldn't handle them all.  But how about the most commonly used ones for
> running on Windows 98, XP, and Windows 7?  Oops, there are more and more Mac
> users all the time, and that other open source OS that I never can remember
> the spelling of.  Linnex?  There's the compatibility issue.  This message
> was longer than intended.  I gotta relax.  Now, where's that nineteenth beta
> of MOTA!  Whew!  Good thing I've got it!
> ---
> Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to
> heart.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeremy Kaldobsky" <jer...@kaldobsky.com>
> To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
> Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2011 11:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] disrespect for gamers: was Re: Lunimals version 2.5b
>>    Well it seems that while I've been sleeping, this argument over
>> programming languages has flared up once again.  It seems like this
>> happens at some point each month, and that is exactly why some of my
>> fellow VB6 users view it as attacks rather than suggestions.  In other
>> aspects of life, you've undoubtedly had someone disagree with you about
>> something, and they felt compelled to share their view in an effort to get
>> you to do things their way.  That's normal, and should be expected during
>> life.  If you listened to their opinion, but stuck to your own, at what
>> point does it become inappropriate for them to bring it up again and
>> again?  Perhaps you'll listen to the same arguments 3 or 4 times, but when
>> the other person is compelled to repeatedly push their opinion on you, it
>> becomes a hostile situation.
>>    I'm not writing this to any one specific individual, so please let me
>> make that clear.  This is being written, generally, to the long list of
>> people who are still pushing the same views after months and months.
>> Actually, this has probably been going on for a lot longer, but I haven't
>> been on audyssey for very long.
>>    I want to dispel this idea that we VB6 users are only using it because
>> we don't know any other languages.  I feel that view paints us as ignorant
>> programmers who are only rejecting your view because we don't know any
>> better.  This is not the case, and I, for one, happen to know just as many
>> languages as the people who don't want me using VB6.  Admittedly I would
>> be rusty with most of them, since I haven't used them in years, but I
>> prefer to be viewed as a peer rather than a programming novice who isn't
>> experienced enough to know what's best for him.  From my experience, there
>> is a stereotypical progression in how programmers think.  When they start
>> out, they stick to what they know because it is all they know.  Like a
>> child clinging to pool floaties, it is scary to first venture away from
>> what is keeping you safe.  As the programmers begins learning more, they
>> become excited by everything that's out there, and so they quickly begin
>> learning
>> everything they can about everything!  This is usually when a programmer
>> will fill their "belt" with several programming languages they have
>> learned to use.  When they've branched out sufficiently, they begin to see
>> the need to narrow their focus back down, and so they will use friends and
>> society to form strong opinions about why one/some languages and methods
>> are superior.  This becomes their justification for abandoning their
>> previous way of thinking, and often leads programmers to become so
>> opinionated that they will attack others who do not agree with them.  The
>> programmers in this category, and believe me I've known more than I'd like
>> to, defend their views with the same level of passion you see on protest
>> picket lines, political debates, and religious arguments.  Personally I
>> think it is a terrible shame, but programmers or not, people are still
>> people, and people suck.  Like an old person who eventually stops caring
>> what other people think,
>> sooner or later programmers break out of their opinionated shell.  When
>> you are so passionate about a single view, you may be able to admit their
>> is another side, but you can't ever weigh it in in an unbiased way.  A
>> person who is stuck focused on compatibility issues is going to view
>> everything through those goggles.  For my fellow VB6 programmers, we
>> simply have to accept that everything and anything we say will be viewed
>> from that perspective and we stand no chance in changing it.
>>    Countless times in movies we see the diplomat and the war general
>> facing some situation.  No matter how events unfold, good or bad, the
>> diplomat will twist it and view it as an opportunity to grow and build
>> relationships, and the war general will twist and view it as a trap or
>> security risk.  These are common examples of how people all into a
>> particular way of thinking and are then trapped to interpret all
>> situations in that way.  While the movies entertain us with the conflict
>> between those characters, and how they each view each situation so
>> differently, but in the end neither is able to change the other.  They
>> simply have to accept how each other are.
>>    The people who are focused on compatibility are not going to be swayed.
>> The VB6 users who have already heard opinions about changing, yet remained
>> firm, are not going to be swayed by those same arguments revived a month
>> later.  We have to stop trying to convince each other to change, since
>> each perspective has value and needs to be present for a healthy overall
>> community.  I believe it is important for me to focus on rapid
>> development, but I don't constantly post long messages telling other
>> developers that taking 6 months on a game is unnecessary.  I could easily
>> push my own opinion onto others, but I have long ago moved past the drive
>> to do so.  If my personal views put importance on rapid development, my
>> mission should not be to push others to develop faster, my mission should
>> be to fill that position myself.  People who strongly feel we need more
>> multiplayer games shouldn't harass others to make them, they should work
>> on doing it themselves.  And
>> finally, people who are focused on compatibility should implement it
>> within their own work rather than pushing the view on to others.  Giving
>> an opinion, in hopes of getting others to take compatibility issues into
>> consideration, is perfectly fine, but when you've already stated your view
>> it doesn't need to be brought up over and over.
>>    The only argument I will speak on directly, is the fear that eventually
>> things will change and none of the old VB6 games will be playable.  When
>> that happens, the environment will be different than it is now, so why
>> assume we would continue to hold the exact same views as we do now?  I
>> can't speak for my comrades, but I do what I do because I have looked at
>> where the community is (the current landscape) and formed my opinions
>> about what it currently needs.  As the landscape changes, so will my
>> opinions about what it needs, and my projects will reflect that.  When I
>> feel it is time to change, I will stop using VB6.  Please acknowledge that
>> I am capable of making my own decisions, that I will change when I think
>> it's time, and Please stop back seat driving.  Thank you.
> ---
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