Nicely put, Pat. I think in addition, because our beliefs govern our experience (set the limits of understanding, tone and circumstance etc.,) seeing or understanding a different view may not be possible for someone unable to suspend belief. I also agree that this is a significant portion of humanity.
On Nov 25, 8:20 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > On Nov 24, 7:30 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > > The will that makes you act against your apparent nature is your innate > > nature. All that you strive for , the controls you exercise , and the > > efforts you make is your innate nature. The doer in you is a slave of your > > nature and your will is a tool of your nature whether apparent or innate. > > Let's face it, RP, our will isn't even ours. And, if our will was > 'free' it CERTAINLY wouldn't be ours, as it would be free from us. I > know what you're saying. You're correct; but others are 'set' to > disagree. So disagree they must. It's only those who have not, yet, > decided on 'their view' yet or those who are intellectually honest > enough to listen to alternatives to their views who 'might' be > swayed. If it is in their future to be so, they will; if it is not, > they won't. And that is irrespective of any evidence, conclusive, > indicative or otherwise. 4-D space-time ends the argument > scientifically; but THAT will never sway those who have belief that is > believed so strongly as to deny facts. And, as there are so many > people in today's world, there will be several thousand people who > fall into that category. > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 2:05 AM, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > There you are wrong RP my nature sez pull the trigger (Why I was never > > > allowed to play the bad guy..)my not doing it is against my nature. > > > Allan > > > > On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 4:42 PM, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> What you choose to do and what you don't depends upon the way your brain > > >> is functioning , if you are nuts God help me and if you are frustrated > > >> and > > >> want to prove your point then also let God have pity upon me. What I > > >> mean to > > >> say Allan is that you are under the control of your nature and that part > > >> of > > >> you which strives to change and do is innate in you , in other words > > >> just as > > >> much a part of your nature. > > > >> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 8:53 PM, iam deheretic > > >> <[email protected]>wrote: > > > >>> RP I have been lost as to what you are arguing there are some laws you > > >>> can not change, but those laws are like thing example the speed of > > >>> light,, but even that can be changed some what. I think what every > > >>> one is > > >>> talking about is the freedom of choice is in the nature of my taking my > > >>> browning high power and deciding to airiate your head by putting several > > >>> round through it. For me to do that would be totally of my choice. Now > > >>> the > > >>> only genetic part of it is that I am very capable of doing it and have > > >>> had > > >>> the training to develop the skills in handling the weapon. > > >>> What keeps me from doing it is I choose not to. You can always find some > > >>> argument to fit your view but when you are staring down the business > > >>> end it > > >>> stops being illusionary and you start praying the holder is not nuts. > > >>> Allan > > > >>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 3:08 PM, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >>>> We are the agents and therefore do everything which gives a false > > >>>> notion > > >>>> of freedom , but actually whatever we do it is by God given Nature. Our > > >>>> personality is an outcome of the interaction of our genetic makeup > > >>>> with the > > >>>> environment , both of which are in the hands of nature. Our will to > > >>>> strive , > > >>>> to control , to improve is innate in us and is therefore genetic in > > >>>> nature. > > >>>> It is all a chain , one thing leads to another which gives us a false > > >>>> notion > > >>>> of independence because our independence is dependent on so many > > >>>> factors , > > >>>> some of which are under our control but that control is illusory as it > > >>>> is > > >>>> due to the chain. The end result must be seen in the perspective of the > > >>>> previous causative factors. > > > >>>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 5:35 PM, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >>>>> We just have different ideas about this and that's okay. I think we > > >>>>> also participate in our own corruption- often- but it is easier to > > >>>>> blame others or the situation. Our innate nature at birth is one of > > >>>>> potential and quite dependent on a multitude of factors. I do not > > >>>>> blame God nor think Him malevolent as we have free will within the > > >>>>> constuct of Determinism- an unsolveable. The brain can trump Nature, > > >>>>> in my opinion though we are bound. > > > >>>>> On Nov 20, 8:13 am, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > >>>>> > A man's innate nature is corrupted by others and that is not in > > >>>>> > one's > > >>>>> hands. > > >>>>> > Nature from inside and outside a person determines all actions, so > > >>>>> whatever > > >>>>> > happens it is ultimately God's will and there is nothing > > >>>>> presumptuous in > > >>>>> > accepting and recognizing that. > > > >>>>> > On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 6:23 PM, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > >>>>> > > For some it is the struggle to survive rather than strive.//You > > >>>>> might > > >>>>> > > want to acqaint yourself with Thomas Hardy- an early influence- > > >>>>> esp. > > >>>>> > > his "Tess of the D'Ubervilles" and "Jude the Obscure".//American > > >>>>> > > Democracy lures immigrants with freedom but materialism suffocates > > >>>>> > > them with greed and envy despite their often good nature and > > >>>>> > > generosity.//I do think it presumptuous to decide God's plan for > > >>>>> our > > >>>>> > > lives- there are too many surprises along the way. Plus our innate > > >>>>> > > nature can be corrupted in several ways. Adam and Eve wound up > > >>>>> > > dysfunctional- look at Cain and Abel! > > > >>>>> > > Have wounded a thumb slicing a potato on the mandolin (a kitchen > > >>>>> > > tool). Difficult to type and surf. :-( > > > >>>>> > > On Nov 19, 4:29 am, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > >>>>> > > > The " I " is self-sense which is just a reflection of the Self > > >>>>> > > > or > > >>>>> God. > > >>>>> > > Our > > >>>>> > > > will is totally bound by nature , when we strive and struggle it > > >>>>> is > > >>>>> > > because > > >>>>> > > > of our innate nature which was given to us. The effect is always > > >>>>> a result > > >>>>> > > of > > >>>>> > > > the cause and not vice versa. > > > >>>>> > > > On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 1:43 AM, [email protected] < > > > >>>>> > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > >>>>> > > > > RP Singh. > > > >>>>> > > > > So it is not you then? What is you? When people say that we > > >>>>> can > > >>>>> > > > > achive via the application of our will what does this mean? > > > >>>>> > > > > There is I think in all of us a sense of 'Self''. What then > > >>>>> > > > > is > > >>>>> this > > >>>>> > > > > Self? > > > >>>>> > > > > On Nov 18, 5:01 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > >>>>> > > > > > " My " or " will " is the agent of Nature and is bound by It > > >>>>> though > > >>>>> > > > > seeming > > >>>>> > > > > > to be free. > > > >>>>> > > > > > On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 9:36 PM, > > >>>>> [email protected] < > > > >>>>> > > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > >>>>> > > > > > > RP Singh, > > > >>>>> > > > > > > I agree we are all products of our enviroments, I cannot > > >>>>> cease to > > >>>>> > > have > > >>>>> > > > > > > dark hair even if I wished, but I can choose to apply some > > >>>>> dye to > > >>>>> > > it. > > > >>>>> > > > > > > You used the word 'MY' quiet a lot in your response to me, > > >>>>> along > > >>>>> > > with > > >>>>> > > > > > > the word 'WILL'. If you have no choice then what is this > > >>>>> will you > > >>>>> > > > > > > speak of? Who's will is it, how do you Will to strive? > > > >>>>> > > > > > > On Nov 18, 3:19 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > >>>>> > > > > > > > As a new-born I had a short or long nose , blue or black > > >>>>> eyes , > > >>>>> > > > > blonde or > > >>>>> > > > > > > > black hair, or a white or black complexion------------ > > >>>>> was it > > >>>>> > > > > determined > > >>>>> > > > > > > by > > >>>>> > > > > > > > me , no it was in my genes. I was not responsible for my > > >>>>> genes > > >>>>> > > and > > >>>>> > > > > > > whoever > > >>>>> > > > > > > > else was responsible but I was bound to them. Similarly > > >>>>> my reason > > >>>>> > > was > > >>>>> > > > > > > sharp > > >>>>> > > > > > > > or dull , my imagination was keen or dull , my grasping > > >>>>> power > > >>>>> > > was > > >>>>> > > > > good > > >>>>> > > > > > > or > > >>>>> > > > > > > > otherwise -- all such things were due to my genes. The > > >>>>> > > environment in > > >>>>> > > > > > > which > > >>>>> > > > > > > > I was born was not of my making , yet it acted and > > >>>>> reacted on me > > >>>>> > > and > > >>>>> > > > > I > > >>>>> > > > > > > acted > > >>>>> > > > > > > > and reacted to it. My personality which eventually > > >>>>> developed was > > >>>>> > > a > > >>>>> > > > > result > > >>>>> > > > > > > of > > >>>>> > > > > > > > this interaction and my will to strive , to improve > > >>>>> myself , to > > >>>>> > > learn > > >>>>> > > > > > > > ----was innate in me and not of my own making. So if > > >>>>> these things > > >>>>> > > > > were > > >>>>> > > > > > > not > > >>>>> > > > > > > > in my hands I can say that I am bound even though > > >>>>> > > > > > > > seeming > > >>>>> to be > > >>>>> > > free. > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 2:32 PM, > > >>>>> [email protected] < > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > Ohh how I disagree with this. > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > It is clear that who we are, our very personalities > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > are > > >>>>> made > > >>>>> > > from > > >>>>> > > > > not > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > only our experiances but our enviroment. Are we > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > really > > >>>>> not > > >>>>> > > free > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > though to make of ourselves something other than what > > >>>>> we are? > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > Yes yes of course we are. The key is understanding, > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > if > > >>>>> we can > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > understand what in our lives has made us 'Us' then we > > >>>>> can > > >>>>> > > surly > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > change in any mannor we wish. Of > > ... > > read more »
