On Nov 25, 2:04 pm, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > Nicely put, Pat. I think in addition, because our beliefs govern our > experience (set the limits of understanding, tone and circumstance > etc.,) seeing or understanding a different view may not be possible > for someone unable to suspend belief. I also agree that this is a > significant portion of humanity. >
Also, there's the flip-side to that: our experiences govern our beliefs. I know that I've had a few VERY RARE experiences, which have greatly influenced my beliefs. However, I can't share those experiences, I can only write them down or tell them, which isn't the same as giving someone else that same experience. Rather, it requires the reader/listener to believe that I'm speaking the truth, which adds a further layer of confounding, especially if the experience is counter to the reader's/listener's pre-conceived belief. Also, as you say, it may not be possible for a reorganisation of beliefs for any given individual. Whilst it may be 'possible' (it will ALWAYS be possible), that doesn't mean it will be in the set of experiences of that given individual. And most of us will have average experiences, which will tend to limit our views. > On Nov 25, 8:20 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > On Nov 24, 7:30 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > The will that makes you act against your apparent nature is your innate > > > nature. All that you strive for , the controls you exercise , and the > > > efforts you make is your innate nature. The doer in you is a slave of your > > > nature and your will is a tool of your nature whether apparent or innate. > > > Let's face it, RP, our will isn't even ours. And, if our will was > > 'free' it CERTAINLY wouldn't be ours, as it would be free from us. I > > know what you're saying. You're correct; but others are 'set' to > > disagree. So disagree they must. It's only those who have not, yet, > > decided on 'their view' yet or those who are intellectually honest > > enough to listen to alternatives to their views who 'might' be > > swayed. If it is in their future to be so, they will; if it is not, > > they won't. And that is irrespective of any evidence, conclusive, > > indicative or otherwise. 4-D space-time ends the argument > > scientifically; but THAT will never sway those who have belief that is > > believed so strongly as to deny facts. And, as there are so many > > people in today's world, there will be several thousand people who > > fall into that category. > > > > On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 2:05 AM, iam deheretic <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > There you are wrong RP my nature sez pull the trigger (Why I was never > > > > allowed to play the bad guy..)my not doing it is against my nature. > > > > Allan > > > > > On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 4:42 PM, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >> What you choose to do and what you don't depends upon the way your > > > >> brain > > > >> is functioning , if you are nuts God help me and if you are frustrated > > > >> and > > > >> want to prove your point then also let God have pity upon me. What I > > > >> mean to > > > >> say Allan is that you are under the control of your nature and that > > > >> part of > > > >> you which strives to change and do is innate in you , in other words > > > >> just as > > > >> much a part of your nature. > > > > >> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 8:53 PM, iam deheretic > > > >> <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > >>> RP I have been lost as to what you are arguing there are some laws > > > >>> you > > > >>> can not change, but those laws are like thing example the speed of > > > >>> light,, but even that can be changed some what. I think what every > > > >>> one is > > > >>> talking about is the freedom of choice is in the nature of my taking > > > >>> my > > > >>> browning high power and deciding to airiate your head by putting > > > >>> several > > > >>> round through it. For me to do that would be totally of my choice. > > > >>> Now the > > > >>> only genetic part of it is that I am very capable of doing it and > > > >>> have had > > > >>> the training to develop the skills in handling the weapon. > > > >>> What keeps me from doing it is I choose not to. You can always find > > > >>> some > > > >>> argument to fit your view but when you are staring down the business > > > >>> end it > > > >>> stops being illusionary and you start praying the holder is not nuts. > > > >>> Allan > > > > >>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 3:08 PM, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >>>> We are the agents and therefore do everything which gives a false > > > >>>> notion > > > >>>> of freedom , but actually whatever we do it is by God given Nature. > > > >>>> Our > > > >>>> personality is an outcome of the interaction of our genetic makeup > > > >>>> with the > > > >>>> environment , both of which are in the hands of nature. Our will to > > > >>>> strive , > > > >>>> to control , to improve is innate in us and is therefore genetic in > > > >>>> nature. > > > >>>> It is all a chain , one thing leads to another which gives us a > > > >>>> false notion > > > >>>> of independence because our independence is dependent on so many > > > >>>> factors , > > > >>>> some of which are under our control but that control is illusory as > > > >>>> it is > > > >>>> due to the chain. The end result must be seen in the perspective of > > > >>>> the > > > >>>> previous causative factors. > > > > >>>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 5:35 PM, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >>>>> We just have different ideas about this and that's okay. I think we > > > >>>>> also participate in our own corruption- often- but it is easier to > > > >>>>> blame others or the situation. Our innate nature at birth is one of > > > >>>>> potential and quite dependent on a multitude of factors. I do not > > > >>>>> blame God nor think Him malevolent as we have free will within the > > > >>>>> constuct of Determinism- an unsolveable. The brain can trump Nature, > > > >>>>> in my opinion though we are bound. > > > > >>>>> On Nov 20, 8:13 am, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >>>>> > A man's innate nature is corrupted by others and that is not in > > > >>>>> > one's > > > >>>>> hands. > > > >>>>> > Nature from inside and outside a person determines all actions, so > > > >>>>> whatever > > > >>>>> > happens it is ultimately God's will and there is nothing > > > >>>>> presumptuous in > > > >>>>> > accepting and recognizing that. > > > > >>>>> > On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 6:23 PM, rigsy03 <[email protected]> > > > >>>>> > wrote: > > > >>>>> > > For some it is the struggle to survive rather than strive.//You > > > >>>>> might > > > >>>>> > > want to acqaint yourself with Thomas Hardy- an early influence- > > > >>>>> esp. > > > >>>>> > > his "Tess of the D'Ubervilles" and "Jude the Obscure".//American > > > >>>>> > > Democracy lures immigrants with freedom but materialism > > > >>>>> > > suffocates > > > >>>>> > > them with greed and envy despite their often good nature and > > > >>>>> > > generosity.//I do think it presumptuous to decide God's plan for > > > >>>>> our > > > >>>>> > > lives- there are too many surprises along the way. Plus our > > > >>>>> > > innate > > > >>>>> > > nature can be corrupted in several ways. Adam and Eve wound up > > > >>>>> > > dysfunctional- look at Cain and Abel! > > > > >>>>> > > Have wounded a thumb slicing a potato on the mandolin (a kitchen > > > >>>>> > > tool). Difficult to type and surf. :-( > > > > >>>>> > > On Nov 19, 4:29 am, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >>>>> > > > The " I " is self-sense which is just a reflection of the > > > >>>>> > > > Self or > > > >>>>> God. > > > >>>>> > > Our > > > >>>>> > > > will is totally bound by nature , when we strive and struggle > > > >>>>> > > > it > > > >>>>> is > > > >>>>> > > because > > > >>>>> > > > of our innate nature which was given to us. The effect is > > > >>>>> > > > always > > > >>>>> a result > > > >>>>> > > of > > > >>>>> > > > the cause and not vice versa. > > > > >>>>> > > > On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 1:43 AM, [email protected] > > > >>>>> > > > < > > > > >>>>> > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > >>>>> > > > > RP Singh. > > > > >>>>> > > > > So it is not you then? What is you? When people say that > > > >>>>> > > > > we > > > >>>>> can > > > >>>>> > > > > achive via the application of our will what does this mean? > > > > >>>>> > > > > There is I think in all of us a sense of 'Self''. What > > > >>>>> > > > > then is > > > >>>>> this > > > >>>>> > > > > Self? > > > > >>>>> > > > > On Nov 18, 5:01 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >>>>> > > > > > " My " or " will " is the agent of Nature and is bound by > > > >>>>> > > > > > It > > > >>>>> though > > > >>>>> > > > > seeming > > > >>>>> > > > > > to be free. > > > > >>>>> > > > > > On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 9:36 PM, > > > >>>>> [email protected] < > > > > >>>>> > > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > >>>>> > > > > > > RP Singh, > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > I agree we are all products of our enviroments, I cannot > > > >>>>> cease to > > > >>>>> > > have > > > >>>>> > > > > > > dark hair even if I wished, but I can choose to apply > > > >>>>> > > > > > > some > > > >>>>> dye to > > > >>>>> > > it. > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > You used the word 'MY' quiet a lot in your response to > > > >>>>> > > > > > > me, > > > >>>>> along > > > >>>>> > > with > > > >>>>> > > > > > > the word 'WILL'. If you have no choice then what is > > > >>>>> > > > > > > this > > > >>>>> will you > > > >>>>> > > > > > > speak of? Who's will is it, how do you Will to strive? > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > On Nov 18, 3:19 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > As a new-born I had a short or long nose , blue or > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > black > > > >>>>> eyes , > > > >>>>> > > > > blonde or > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > black hair, or a white or black > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > complexion------------ > > > >>>>> was it > > > >>>>> > > > > determined > > > >>>>> > > > > > > by > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > me , no it was in my genes. I was not responsible for > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > my > > > >>>>> genes > > > >>>>> > > and > > > >>>>> > > > > > > whoever > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > else was responsible but I was bound to them. > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > Similarly > > > >>>>> my reason > > > >>>>> > > was > > > >>>>> > > > > > > sharp > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > or dull , my imagination was keen or dull , my > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > grasping > > > >>>>> power > > > >>>>> > > was > > > >>>>> > > > > good > > > >>>>> > > > > > > or > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > otherwise -- all such things were due to my genes. The > > > >>>>> > > environment in > > > >>>>> > > > > > > which > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > I was born was not of my making , yet it acted and > > > >>>>> reacted on me > > > >>>>> > > and > > > >>>>> > > > > I > > > >>>>> > > > > > > acted > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > and reacted to it. My personality which eventually > > > >>>>> developed was > > > >>>>> > > a > > > >>>>> > > > > result > > > >>>>> > > > > > > of > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > this interaction and my will to strive , to improve > > > >>>>> myself , to > > > >>>>> > > learn > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > ----was innate in me and not of my own making. So if > > > >>>>> these things > > > >>>>> > > > > were > > > >>>>> > > > > > > not > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > in my hands I can say that I am bound even though > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > seeming > > > >>>>> to be > > > >>>>> > > free. > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 2:32 PM, > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
