[AFMUG] vmware/veeam alternatives

[Steve Jones]

Ive been running vmware and veeam forever, i love it, but we are getting
priced out of continuing to use it. upgrading either is always a cumbersome
task.

Having been using what is probably the simplest virtualization/backup combo
out there I'm guessing anything we move to will have a massive learning
curve for me,

What combos are out there that dont break the bank and are reliable as this?
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AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

[Chuck McCown via AF]

Alternate Chuck also has a solid gold Canopy pedigree.  Can’t take that away.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 7, 2021, at 9:59 PM, Steve Jones  wrote:
> 
> 
> Good chucks rules said nothing about fights to the death. But also bad chuck 
> isnt really u@#t, hes air fiber. That's kind of like an imitation veggie 
> burger made of beef.
> 
>> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, 9:21 PM Mathew Howard  wrote:
>> Is that allowed? 
>> 
>>> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, 9:03 PM Chuck Macenski  wrote:
>>> I give up (I am too old slow to be involved in a dual)
>>> 
 On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 8:44 PM Steve Jones  
 wrote:
 Sorry good chuck, but bad chuck is spitting fighting words. Its come to a 
 duel
 
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, 7:13 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:
> LENT!
>  
> From: Chuck Macenski
> Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 6:01 PM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB
>  
> UBNT UBNT UBNT UBNT
>  
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 5:12 PM Mark - Myakka Technologies 
>  wrote:
>> I hated sociology when I was in college, but had to take it.  I think 
>> sociology now would be fascinating.  Think about how far we have 
>> degraded as a society.  Of all people, the people on this list should 
>> not be surprised of where we are at.
>> 
>> There has always been conspiracy theories.  Bigfoot, Area 51, JFK, etc.  
>> But in the pre-internet days, you really had to want to be a conspiracy 
>> person to get sucked in.  You had to subscribe to magazines, you had to 
>> find books at the store or library.  You really had to be dedicated to 
>> that conspiracy.  Most considered them urban legends, only a few took 
>> the deep dive.  It also helped that 99% of the news was centralized.  
>> You watched a certain channel because you liked the person doing the 
>> reporting , not the news itself.  If there was spin, it was mostly all 
>> spun in the same direction.
>> 
>> Then came the Internet.  Now we have BBS and chat rooms where these 
>> conspiracy people can virtually meet.  Still not an issue because a 
>> majority of the population is still getting their news from a 
>> centralized place.  CNN at this point was still main stream and in 
>> inline with the networks.
>> 
>> Then AOL comes along and everyone starts getting on the Internet.  
>> Things start getting a little worst.  Remember Bonsai Kitten.  Hey, its 
>> on the Internet so it is true.  Forums start popping up, some people 
>> start building their own websites, e-mail is becoming more popular.  
>> It's dial up, still takes a lot of work to get involved with the 
>> conspiracy guys.  But now you have a bit easier access to the rabbit 
>> hole.  Most news is still consumed via TV and Newspapers.  Most events 
>> are still reported accurately. 
>> 
>> Then dedicated always on Internet shows up along with social media.  
>> This begins the downward spiral.  No more dial up.  You can create any 
>> type of bat shit crazy FB group/page.  You can post any type of video on 
>> youtube.  Now that rabbit hole is getting easier to navigate.  You can 
>> start blogging or vlogging.  You can setup websites via godaddy in a few 
>> clicks.  More people are starting to get their news via the Internet.  
>> The news organizations start seeing this and begin their presence 
>> online.  News is starting to get a bit more blurry as some of these 
>> virtual news organizations start competing with the old timers.
>> 
>> Then we get smart phones, snapchat, instagram, etc.  Now we have access 
>> to that rabbit hole wherever we are.  There is almost zero effort needed 
>> to make a post to social media.  Anyone with a selfie stick and a smart 
>> phone is now a reporter.  Virtual "news" channels streamed from someones 
>> basement are now on ROKU or FireStick.  There is no more centralize 
>> news.  Everything is an opinion story.  Old school news outlets have to 
>> stop being independent and start leaning one way or another to survive 
>> in the new age.  All that matters now is followers, eyeballs and ad 
>> revenue.  Keep your eyeballs worked up as much as possible, so they come 
>> back or go deeper into the rabbit hole.
>> 
>> As I said of all people, we on this list should not be surprised where 
>> we are as a country.  We watched this develop over the last 20+ years.  
>> Unfortunately, I really don't see how it gets better.  There was always 
>> some fringe groups out there, but now there is no such thing as fringe.
>> 
>> Everyone has now been divided into tribes.  Red tribe, Blue tribe, LGQBT 
>> tribe, BLM tribe, Proud Boys tribe, Christian tribe, etc.  With social 
>> media we are now free to associated with only the people that agree with 
>> us.  We surround 

Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

[Steve Jones]

Good chucks rules said nothing about fights to the death. But also bad
chuck isnt really u@#t, hes air fiber. That's kind of like an imitation
veggie burger made of beef.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, 9:21 PM Mathew Howard  wrote:

> Is that allowed?
>
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, 9:03 PM Chuck Macenski  wrote:
>
>> I give up (I am too old slow to be involved in a dual)
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 8:44 PM Steve Jones 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry good chuck, but bad chuck is spitting fighting words. Its come to
>>> a duel
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, 7:13 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 LENT!

 *From:* Chuck Macenski
 *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 6:01 PM
 *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
 *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

 UBNT UBNT UBNT UBNT

 On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 5:12 PM Mark - Myakka Technologies <
 m...@mailmt.com> wrote:

> I hated sociology when I was in college, but had to take it.  I think
> sociology now would be fascinating.  Think about how far we have degraded
> as a society.  Of all people, the people on this list should not be
> surprised of where we are at.
>
> There has always been conspiracy theories.  Bigfoot, Area 51, JFK,
> etc.  But in the pre-internet days, you really had to want to be a
> conspiracy person to get sucked in.  You had to subscribe to magazines, 
> you
> had to find books at the store or library.  You really had to be dedicated
> to that conspiracy.  Most considered them urban legends, only a few took
> the deep dive.  It also helped that 99% of the news was centralized.  You
> watched a certain channel because you liked the person doing the reporting
> , not the news itself.  If there was spin, it was mostly all spun in the
> same direction.
>
> Then came the Internet.  Now we have BBS and chat rooms where these
> conspiracy people can virtually meet.  Still not an issue because a
> majority of the population is still getting their news from a centralized
> place.  CNN at this point was still main stream and in inline with the
> networks.
>
> Then AOL comes along and everyone starts getting on the Internet.
> Things start getting a little worst.  Remember Bonsai Kitten.  Hey, its on
> the Internet so it is true.  Forums start popping up, some people start
> building their own websites, e-mail is becoming more popular.  It's dial
> up, still takes a lot of work to get involved with the conspiracy guys.
> But now you have a bit easier access to the rabbit hole.  Most news is
> still consumed via TV and Newspapers.  Most events are still reported
> accurately.
>
> Then dedicated always on Internet shows up along with social media.
> This begins the downward spiral.  No more dial up.  You can create any 
> type
> of bat shit crazy FB group/page.  You can post any type of video on
> youtube.  Now that rabbit hole is getting easier to navigate.  You can
> start blogging or vlogging.  You can setup websites via godaddy in a few
> clicks.  More people are starting to get their news via the Internet.  The
> news organizations start seeing this and begin their presence online.  
> News
> is starting to get a bit more blurry as some of these virtual news
> organizations start competing with the old timers.
>
> Then we get smart phones, snapchat, instagram, etc.  Now we have
> access to that rabbit hole wherever we are.  There is almost zero effort
> needed to make a post to social media.  Anyone with a selfie stick and a
> smart phone is now a reporter.  Virtual "news" channels streamed from
> someones basement are now on ROKU or FireStick.  There is no more
> centralize news.  Everything is an opinion story.  Old school news outlets
> have to stop being independent and start leaning one way or another to
> survive in the new age.  All that matters now is followers, eyeballs and 
> ad
> revenue.  Keep your eyeballs worked up as much as possible, so they come
> back or go deeper into the rabbit hole.
>
> As I said of all people, we on this list should not be surprised where
> we are as a country.  We watched this develop over the last 20+ years.
> Unfortunately, I really don't see how it gets better.  There was always
> some fringe groups out there, but now there is no such thing as fringe.
>
> Everyone has now been divided into tribes.  Red tribe, Blue tribe,
> LGQBT tribe, BLM tribe, Proud Boys tribe, Christian tribe, etc.  With
> social media we are now free to associated with only the people that agree
> with us.  We surround ourselves with yes men.  We rarely hear "The Rest of
> the Story".  Our believes are confirmed and reinforced each and every day
> until we are willing to die for them.  Chris Rock in the movie Dogma had a
> great quote "I just think it's better 

Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load

[Chris Fabien]

I killed a Tripp-Lite UPS once using a 750 watt space heater to try to
load test. Their excuse was spike of inrush as heater element heated
up. Sounded like BS to me and they did RMA it but anyway if you use
light bulbs I'd plug them in one at a time to avoid a similar
situation.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 10:31 AM Adam Moffett  wrote:
>
> I've used a heat gun with a "low" setting.
>
> Hair dryer might be about the same.
>
> On 1/7/2021 9:57 AM, Josh Luthman wrote:
>
> My UPS needs to be at 30% load to get a runtime load test.  I'm at 11% (of 
> 750va) with the BH and AP up there.
>
> If memory serves, back in 2015 I used a couple CRT monitors.  Those are long 
> gone.  The only idea I have is a space heater, but that's 850-900 watts and 
> will probably be too much.
>
> Short of carrying up 20 Ubiquiti AP/POE and some surge strips, anyone have 
> any clever ideas?  I have to carry this up 5 flights of stairs so please be 
> gentle :)
>
> Josh Luthman
> 24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

[Mathew Howard]

Is that allowed?

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, 9:03 PM Chuck Macenski  wrote:

> I give up (I am too old slow to be involved in a dual)
>
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 8:44 PM Steve Jones 
> wrote:
>
>> Sorry good chuck, but bad chuck is spitting fighting words. Its come to a
>> duel
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, 7:13 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:
>>
>>> LENT!
>>>
>>> *From:* Chuck Macenski
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 6:01 PM
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB
>>>
>>> UBNT UBNT UBNT UBNT
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 5:12 PM Mark - Myakka Technologies <
>>> m...@mailmt.com> wrote:
>>>
 I hated sociology when I was in college, but had to take it.  I think
 sociology now would be fascinating.  Think about how far we have degraded
 as a society.  Of all people, the people on this list should not be
 surprised of where we are at.

 There has always been conspiracy theories.  Bigfoot, Area 51, JFK,
 etc.  But in the pre-internet days, you really had to want to be a
 conspiracy person to get sucked in.  You had to subscribe to magazines, you
 had to find books at the store or library.  You really had to be dedicated
 to that conspiracy.  Most considered them urban legends, only a few took
 the deep dive.  It also helped that 99% of the news was centralized.  You
 watched a certain channel because you liked the person doing the reporting
 , not the news itself.  If there was spin, it was mostly all spun in the
 same direction.

 Then came the Internet.  Now we have BBS and chat rooms where these
 conspiracy people can virtually meet.  Still not an issue because a
 majority of the population is still getting their news from a centralized
 place.  CNN at this point was still main stream and in inline with the
 networks.

 Then AOL comes along and everyone starts getting on the Internet.
 Things start getting a little worst.  Remember Bonsai Kitten.  Hey, its on
 the Internet so it is true.  Forums start popping up, some people start
 building their own websites, e-mail is becoming more popular.  It's dial
 up, still takes a lot of work to get involved with the conspiracy guys.
 But now you have a bit easier access to the rabbit hole.  Most news is
 still consumed via TV and Newspapers.  Most events are still reported
 accurately.

 Then dedicated always on Internet shows up along with social media.
 This begins the downward spiral.  No more dial up.  You can create any type
 of bat shit crazy FB group/page.  You can post any type of video on
 youtube.  Now that rabbit hole is getting easier to navigate.  You can
 start blogging or vlogging.  You can setup websites via godaddy in a few
 clicks.  More people are starting to get their news via the Internet.  The
 news organizations start seeing this and begin their presence online.  News
 is starting to get a bit more blurry as some of these virtual news
 organizations start competing with the old timers.

 Then we get smart phones, snapchat, instagram, etc.  Now we have access
 to that rabbit hole wherever we are.  There is almost zero effort needed to
 make a post to social media.  Anyone with a selfie stick and a smart phone
 is now a reporter.  Virtual "news" channels streamed from someones basement
 are now on ROKU or FireStick.  There is no more centralize news.
 Everything is an opinion story.  Old school news outlets have to stop being
 independent and start leaning one way or another to survive in the new
 age.  All that matters now is followers, eyeballs and ad revenue.  Keep
 your eyeballs worked up as much as possible, so they come back or go deeper
 into the rabbit hole.

 As I said of all people, we on this list should not be surprised where
 we are as a country.  We watched this develop over the last 20+ years.
 Unfortunately, I really don't see how it gets better.  There was always
 some fringe groups out there, but now there is no such thing as fringe.

 Everyone has now been divided into tribes.  Red tribe, Blue tribe,
 LGQBT tribe, BLM tribe, Proud Boys tribe, Christian tribe, etc.  With
 social media we are now free to associated with only the people that agree
 with us.  We surround ourselves with yes men.  We rarely hear "The Rest of
 the Story".  Our believes are confirmed and reinforced each and every day
 until we are willing to die for them.  Chris Rock in the movie Dogma had a
 great quote "I just think it's better to have an idea. You can change an
 idea; changing a belief is trickier. People die for it, people kill for 
 it."


 --
 Best regards,
 Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

 Myakka Technologies, Inc.
 www.Myakka.com

 --

 Thursday, January 7, 2021, 2:37:53 PM, you 

Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

[Chuck Macenski]

I give up (I am too old slow to be involved in a dual)

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 8:44 PM Steve Jones 
wrote:

> Sorry good chuck, but bad chuck is spitting fighting words. Its come to a
> duel
>
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, 7:13 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:
>
>> LENT!
>>
>> *From:* Chuck Macenski
>> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 6:01 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB
>>
>> UBNT UBNT UBNT UBNT
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 5:12 PM Mark - Myakka Technologies <
>> m...@mailmt.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I hated sociology when I was in college, but had to take it.  I think
>>> sociology now would be fascinating.  Think about how far we have degraded
>>> as a society.  Of all people, the people on this list should not be
>>> surprised of where we are at.
>>>
>>> There has always been conspiracy theories.  Bigfoot, Area 51, JFK, etc.
>>> But in the pre-internet days, you really had to want to be a conspiracy
>>> person to get sucked in.  You had to subscribe to magazines, you had to
>>> find books at the store or library.  You really had to be dedicated to that
>>> conspiracy.  Most considered them urban legends, only a few took the deep
>>> dive.  It also helped that 99% of the news was centralized.  You watched a
>>> certain channel because you liked the person doing the reporting , not the
>>> news itself.  If there was spin, it was mostly all spun in the same
>>> direction.
>>>
>>> Then came the Internet.  Now we have BBS and chat rooms where these
>>> conspiracy people can virtually meet.  Still not an issue because a
>>> majority of the population is still getting their news from a centralized
>>> place.  CNN at this point was still main stream and in inline with the
>>> networks.
>>>
>>> Then AOL comes along and everyone starts getting on the Internet.
>>> Things start getting a little worst.  Remember Bonsai Kitten.  Hey, its on
>>> the Internet so it is true.  Forums start popping up, some people start
>>> building their own websites, e-mail is becoming more popular.  It's dial
>>> up, still takes a lot of work to get involved with the conspiracy guys.
>>> But now you have a bit easier access to the rabbit hole.  Most news is
>>> still consumed via TV and Newspapers.  Most events are still reported
>>> accurately.
>>>
>>> Then dedicated always on Internet shows up along with social media.
>>> This begins the downward spiral.  No more dial up.  You can create any type
>>> of bat shit crazy FB group/page.  You can post any type of video on
>>> youtube.  Now that rabbit hole is getting easier to navigate.  You can
>>> start blogging or vlogging.  You can setup websites via godaddy in a few
>>> clicks.  More people are starting to get their news via the Internet.  The
>>> news organizations start seeing this and begin their presence online.  News
>>> is starting to get a bit more blurry as some of these virtual news
>>> organizations start competing with the old timers.
>>>
>>> Then we get smart phones, snapchat, instagram, etc.  Now we have access
>>> to that rabbit hole wherever we are.  There is almost zero effort needed to
>>> make a post to social media.  Anyone with a selfie stick and a smart phone
>>> is now a reporter.  Virtual "news" channels streamed from someones basement
>>> are now on ROKU or FireStick.  There is no more centralize news.
>>> Everything is an opinion story.  Old school news outlets have to stop being
>>> independent and start leaning one way or another to survive in the new
>>> age.  All that matters now is followers, eyeballs and ad revenue.  Keep
>>> your eyeballs worked up as much as possible, so they come back or go deeper
>>> into the rabbit hole.
>>>
>>> As I said of all people, we on this list should not be surprised where
>>> we are as a country.  We watched this develop over the last 20+ years.
>>> Unfortunately, I really don't see how it gets better.  There was always
>>> some fringe groups out there, but now there is no such thing as fringe.
>>>
>>> Everyone has now been divided into tribes.  Red tribe, Blue tribe, LGQBT
>>> tribe, BLM tribe, Proud Boys tribe, Christian tribe, etc.  With social
>>> media we are now free to associated with only the people that agree with
>>> us.  We surround ourselves with yes men.  We rarely hear "The Rest of the
>>> Story".  Our believes are confirmed and reinforced each and every day until
>>> we are willing to die for them.  Chris Rock in the movie Dogma had a great
>>> quote "I just think it's better to have an idea. You can change an idea;
>>> changing a belief is trickier. People die for it, people kill for it."
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Best regards,
>>> Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com
>>>
>>> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
>>> www.Myakka.com
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Thursday, January 7, 2021, 2:37:53 PM, you wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> It seems like it should be pretty obvious to everyone at this point that
>>> no matter what is said on either side of these political issues that
>>> nothing is 

Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

[Steve Jones]

Sorry good chuck, but bad chuck is spitting fighting words. Its come to a
duel

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, 7:13 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> LENT!
>
> *From:* Chuck Macenski
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 6:01 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB
>
> UBNT UBNT UBNT UBNT
>
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 5:12 PM Mark - Myakka Technologies 
> wrote:
>
>> I hated sociology when I was in college, but had to take it.  I think
>> sociology now would be fascinating.  Think about how far we have degraded
>> as a society.  Of all people, the people on this list should not be
>> surprised of where we are at.
>>
>> There has always been conspiracy theories.  Bigfoot, Area 51, JFK, etc.
>> But in the pre-internet days, you really had to want to be a conspiracy
>> person to get sucked in.  You had to subscribe to magazines, you had to
>> find books at the store or library.  You really had to be dedicated to that
>> conspiracy.  Most considered them urban legends, only a few took the deep
>> dive.  It also helped that 99% of the news was centralized.  You watched a
>> certain channel because you liked the person doing the reporting , not the
>> news itself.  If there was spin, it was mostly all spun in the same
>> direction.
>>
>> Then came the Internet.  Now we have BBS and chat rooms where these
>> conspiracy people can virtually meet.  Still not an issue because a
>> majority of the population is still getting their news from a centralized
>> place.  CNN at this point was still main stream and in inline with the
>> networks.
>>
>> Then AOL comes along and everyone starts getting on the Internet.  Things
>> start getting a little worst.  Remember Bonsai Kitten.  Hey, its on the
>> Internet so it is true.  Forums start popping up, some people start
>> building their own websites, e-mail is becoming more popular.  It's dial
>> up, still takes a lot of work to get involved with the conspiracy guys.
>> But now you have a bit easier access to the rabbit hole.  Most news is
>> still consumed via TV and Newspapers.  Most events are still reported
>> accurately.
>>
>> Then dedicated always on Internet shows up along with social media.  This
>> begins the downward spiral.  No more dial up.  You can create any type of
>> bat shit crazy FB group/page.  You can post any type of video on youtube.
>> Now that rabbit hole is getting easier to navigate.  You can start blogging
>> or vlogging.  You can setup websites via godaddy in a few clicks.  More
>> people are starting to get their news via the Internet.  The news
>> organizations start seeing this and begin their presence online.  News is
>> starting to get a bit more blurry as some of these virtual news
>> organizations start competing with the old timers.
>>
>> Then we get smart phones, snapchat, instagram, etc.  Now we have access
>> to that rabbit hole wherever we are.  There is almost zero effort needed to
>> make a post to social media.  Anyone with a selfie stick and a smart phone
>> is now a reporter.  Virtual "news" channels streamed from someones basement
>> are now on ROKU or FireStick.  There is no more centralize news.
>> Everything is an opinion story.  Old school news outlets have to stop being
>> independent and start leaning one way or another to survive in the new
>> age.  All that matters now is followers, eyeballs and ad revenue.  Keep
>> your eyeballs worked up as much as possible, so they come back or go deeper
>> into the rabbit hole.
>>
>> As I said of all people, we on this list should not be surprised where we
>> are as a country.  We watched this develop over the last 20+ years.
>> Unfortunately, I really don't see how it gets better.  There was always
>> some fringe groups out there, but now there is no such thing as fringe.
>>
>> Everyone has now been divided into tribes.  Red tribe, Blue tribe, LGQBT
>> tribe, BLM tribe, Proud Boys tribe, Christian tribe, etc.  With social
>> media we are now free to associated with only the people that agree with
>> us.  We surround ourselves with yes men.  We rarely hear "The Rest of the
>> Story".  Our believes are confirmed and reinforced each and every day until
>> we are willing to die for them.  Chris Rock in the movie Dogma had a great
>> quote "I just think it's better to have an idea. You can change an idea;
>> changing a belief is trickier. People die for it, people kill for it."
>>
>>
>> --
>> Best regards,
>> Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com
>>
>> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
>> www.Myakka.com
>>
>> --
>>
>> Thursday, January 7, 2021, 2:37:53 PM, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> It seems like it should be pretty obvious to everyone at this point that
>> no matter what is said on either side of these political issues that
>> nothing is going to change the opinions and beliefs of people on the other
>> side.  No matter how much “proof” either side has to show that they are
>> right, no one is going to change their opinion.  I suppose there are always
>> some 

Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

[Chuck McCown via AF]

LENT!

From: Chuck Macenski 
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 6:01 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

UBNT UBNT UBNT UBNT

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 5:12 PM Mark - Myakka Technologies  
wrote:

  I hated sociology when I was in college, but had to take it.  I think 
sociology now would be fascinating.  Think about how far we have degraded as a 
society.  Of all people, the people on this list should not be surprised of 
where we are at.

  There has always been conspiracy theories.  Bigfoot, Area 51, JFK, etc.  But 
in the pre-internet days, you really had to want to be a conspiracy person to 
get sucked in.  You had to subscribe to magazines, you had to find books at the 
store or library.  You really had to be dedicated to that conspiracy.  Most 
considered them urban legends, only a few took the deep dive.  It also helped 
that 99% of the news was centralized.  You watched a certain channel because 
you liked the person doing the reporting , not the news itself.  If there was 
spin, it was mostly all spun in the same direction. 

  Then came the Internet.  Now we have BBS and chat rooms where these 
conspiracy people can virtually meet.  Still not an issue because a majority of 
the population is still getting their news from a centralized place.  CNN at 
this point was still main stream and in inline with the networks.

  Then AOL comes along and everyone starts getting on the Internet.  Things 
start getting a little worst.  Remember Bonsai Kitten.  Hey, its on the 
Internet so it is true.  Forums start popping up, some people start building 
their own websites, e-mail is becoming more popular.  It's dial up, still takes 
a lot of work to get involved with the conspiracy guys.  But now you have a bit 
easier access to the rabbit hole.  Most news is still consumed via TV and 
Newspapers.  Most events are still reported accurately. 

  Then dedicated always on Internet shows up along with social media.  This 
begins the downward spiral.  No more dial up.  You can create any type of bat 
shit crazy FB group/page.  You can post any type of video on youtube.  Now that 
rabbit hole is getting easier to navigate.  You can start blogging or vlogging. 
 You can setup websites via godaddy in a few clicks.  More people are starting 
to get their news via the Internet.  The news organizations start seeing this 
and begin their presence online.  News is starting to get a bit more blurry as 
some of these virtual news organizations start competing with the old timers.

  Then we get smart phones, snapchat, instagram, etc.  Now we have access to 
that rabbit hole wherever we are.  There is almost zero effort needed to make a 
post to social media.  Anyone with a selfie stick and a smart phone is now a 
reporter.  Virtual "news" channels streamed from someones basement are now on 
ROKU or FireStick.  There is no more centralize news.  Everything is an opinion 
story.  Old school news outlets have to stop being independent and start 
leaning one way or another to survive in the new age.  All that matters now is 
followers, eyeballs and ad revenue.  Keep your eyeballs worked up as much as 
possible, so they come back or go deeper into the rabbit hole.

  As I said of all people, we on this list should not be surprised where we are 
as a country.  We watched this develop over the last 20+ years.  Unfortunately, 
I really don't see how it gets better.  There was always some fringe groups out 
there, but now there is no such thing as fringe.

  Everyone has now been divided into tribes.  Red tribe, Blue tribe, LGQBT 
tribe, BLM tribe, Proud Boys tribe, Christian tribe, etc.  With social media we 
are now free to associated with only the people that agree with us.  We 
surround ourselves with yes men.  We rarely hear "The Rest of the Story".  Our 
believes are confirmed and reinforced each and every day until we are willing 
to die for them.  Chris Rock in the movie Dogma had a great quote "I just think 
it's better to have an idea. You can change an idea; changing a belief is 
trickier. People die for it, people kill for it."


  --
  Best regards,
  Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

  Myakka Technologies, Inc.
  www.Myakka.com

  --

  Thursday, January 7, 2021, 2:37:53 PM, you wrote:


   It seems like it should be pretty obvious to everyone at this point that 
no matter what is said on either side of these political issues that nothing is 
going to change the opinions and beliefs of people on the other side.  No 
matter how much “proof” either side has to show that they are right, no one is 
going to change their opinion.  I suppose there are always some people who 
straddle the fence (just watch out if you slip and it’s a picket or razor blade 
fence you’re straddling!) and might be swayed by something they see, but the 
reality is that nothing is gained by anyone by these conversations on a list 
like this.  In fact, much is lost……..  hopefully those that 

Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

[Chuck Macenski]

UBNT UBNT UBNT UBNT

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 5:12 PM Mark - Myakka Technologies 
wrote:

> I hated sociology when I was in college, but had to take it.  I think
> sociology now would be fascinating.  Think about how far we have degraded
> as a society.  Of all people, the people on this list should not be
> surprised of where we are at.
>
> There has always been conspiracy theories.  Bigfoot, Area 51, JFK, etc.
> But in the pre-internet days, you really had to want to be a conspiracy
> person to get sucked in.  You had to subscribe to magazines, you had to
> find books at the store or library.  You really had to be dedicated to that
> conspiracy.  Most considered them urban legends, only a few took the deep
> dive.  It also helped that 99% of the news was centralized.  You watched a
> certain channel because you liked the person doing the reporting , not the
> news itself.  If there was spin, it was mostly all spun in the same
> direction.
>
> Then came the Internet.  Now we have BBS and chat rooms where these
> conspiracy people can virtually meet.  Still not an issue because a
> majority of the population is still getting their news from a centralized
> place.  CNN at this point was still main stream and in inline with the
> networks.
>
> Then AOL comes along and everyone starts getting on the Internet.  Things
> start getting a little worst.  Remember Bonsai Kitten.  Hey, its on the
> Internet so it is true.  Forums start popping up, some people start
> building their own websites, e-mail is becoming more popular.  It's dial
> up, still takes a lot of work to get involved with the conspiracy guys.
> But now you have a bit easier access to the rabbit hole.  Most news is
> still consumed via TV and Newspapers.  Most events are still reported
> accurately.
>
> Then dedicated always on Internet shows up along with social media.  This
> begins the downward spiral.  No more dial up.  You can create any type of
> bat shit crazy FB group/page.  You can post any type of video on youtube.
> Now that rabbit hole is getting easier to navigate.  You can start blogging
> or vlogging.  You can setup websites via godaddy in a few clicks.  More
> people are starting to get their news via the Internet.  The news
> organizations start seeing this and begin their presence online.  News is
> starting to get a bit more blurry as some of these virtual news
> organizations start competing with the old timers.
>
> Then we get smart phones, snapchat, instagram, etc.  Now we have access to
> that rabbit hole wherever we are.  There is almost zero effort needed to
> make a post to social media.  Anyone with a selfie stick and a smart phone
> is now a reporter.  Virtual "news" channels streamed from someones basement
> are now on ROKU or FireStick.  There is no more centralize news.
> Everything is an opinion story.  Old school news outlets have to stop being
> independent and start leaning one way or another to survive in the new
> age.  All that matters now is followers, eyeballs and ad revenue.  Keep
> your eyeballs worked up as much as possible, so they come back or go deeper
> into the rabbit hole.
>
> As I said of all people, we on this list should not be surprised where we
> are as a country.  We watched this develop over the last 20+ years.
> Unfortunately, I really don't see how it gets better.  There was always
> some fringe groups out there, but now there is no such thing as fringe.
>
> Everyone has now been divided into tribes.  Red tribe, Blue tribe, LGQBT
> tribe, BLM tribe, Proud Boys tribe, Christian tribe, etc.  With social
> media we are now free to associated with only the people that agree with
> us.  We surround ourselves with yes men.  We rarely hear "The Rest of the
> Story".  Our believes are confirmed and reinforced each and every day until
> we are willing to die for them.  Chris Rock in the movie Dogma had a great
> quote "I just think it's better to have an idea. You can change an idea;
> changing a belief is trickier. People die for it, people kill for it."
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com 
>
> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
> www.Myakka.com
>
> --
>
> Thursday, January 7, 2021, 2:37:53 PM, you wrote:
>
>
> It seems like it should be pretty obvious to everyone at this point that
> no matter what is said on either side of these political issues that
> nothing is going to change the opinions and beliefs of people on the other
> side.  No matter how much “proof” either side has to show that they are
> right, no one is going to change their opinion.  I suppose there are always
> some people who straddle the fence (just watch out if you slip and it’s a
> picket or razor blade fence you’re straddling!) and might be swayed by
> something they see, but the reality is that nothing is gained by anyone by
> these conversations on a list like this.  In fact, much is lost……..
>  hopefully those that unsubscribed will come back.  Personally, as long as
> political 

Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

[Mark - Myakka Technologies]

Title: Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB


I hated sociology when I was in college, but had to take it.  I think sociology now would be fascinating.  Think about how far we have degraded as a society.  Of all people, the people on this list should not be surprised of where we are at.

There has always been conspiracy theories.  Bigfoot, Area 51, JFK, etc.  But in the pre-internet days, you really had to want to be a conspiracy person to get sucked in.  You had to subscribe to magazines, you had to find books at the store or library.  You really had to be dedicated to that conspiracy.  Most considered them urban legends, only a few took the deep dive.  It also helped that 99% of the news was centralized.  You watched a certain channel because you liked the person doing the reporting , not the news itself.  If there was spin, it was mostly all spun in the same direction. 

Then came the Internet.  Now we have BBS and chat rooms where these conspiracy people can virtually meet.  Still not an issue because a majority of the population is still getting their news from a centralized place.  CNN at this point was still main stream and in inline with the networks.

Then AOL comes along and everyone starts getting on the Internet.  Things start getting a little worst.  Remember Bonsai Kitten.  Hey, its on the Internet so it is true.  Forums start popping up, some people start building their own websites, e-mail is becoming more popular.  It's dial up, still takes a lot of work to get involved with the conspiracy guys.  But now you have a bit easier access to the rabbit hole.  Most news is still consumed via TV and Newspapers.  Most events are still reported accurately. 

Then dedicated always on Internet shows up along with social media.  This begins the downward spiral.  No more dial up.  You can create any type of bat shit crazy FB group/page.  You can post any type of video on youtube.  Now that rabbit hole is getting easier to navigate.  You can start blogging or vlogging.  You can setup websites via godaddy in a few clicks.  More people are starting to get their news via the Internet.  The news organizations start seeing this and begin their presence online.  News is starting to get a bit more blurry as some of these virtual news organizations start competing with the old timers.

Then we get smart phones, snapchat, instagram, etc.  Now we have access to that rabbit hole wherever we are.  There is almost zero effort needed to make a post to social media.  Anyone with a selfie stick and a smart phone is now a reporter.  Virtual "news" channels streamed from someones basement are now on ROKU or FireStick.  There is no more centralize news.  Everything is an opinion story.  Old school news outlets have to stop being independent and start leaning one way or another to survive in the new age.  All that matters now is followers, eyeballs and ad revenue.  Keep your eyeballs worked up as much as possible, so they come back or go deeper into the rabbit hole.

As I said of all people, we on this list should not be surprised where we are as a country.  We watched this develop over the last 20+ years.  Unfortunately, I really don't see how it gets better.  There was always some fringe groups out there, but now there is no such thing as fringe.

Everyone has now been divided into tribes.  Red tribe, Blue tribe, LGQBT tribe, BLM tribe, Proud Boys tribe, Christian tribe, etc.  With social media we are now free to associated with only the people that agree with us.  We surround ourselves with yes men.  We rarely hear "The Rest of the Story".  Our believes are confirmed and reinforced each and every day until we are willing to die for them.  Chris Rock in the movie Dogma had a great quote "I just think it's better to have an idea. You can change an idea; changing a belief is trickier. People die for it, people kill for it."


--
Best regards,
 Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.Myakka.com

--

Thursday, January 7, 2021, 2:37:53 PM, you wrote:






It seems like it should be pretty obvious to everyone at this point that no matter what is said on either side of these political issues that nothing is going to change the opinions and beliefs of people on the other side.  No matter how much “proof” either side has to show that they are right, no one is going to change their opinion.  I suppose there are always some people who straddle the fence (just watch out if you slip and it’s a picket or razor blade fence you’re straddling!) and might be swayed by something they see, but the reality is that nothing is gained by anyone by these conversations on a list like this.  In fact, much is lost……..  hopefully those that unsubscribed will come back.  Personally, as long as political discussions don’t get so vicious as they’ve been at times, I find many of them entertaining.  Overall though they seem to have caused more damage to this group than any benefit they’ve ever given. 
 
From: AF  On 

[AFMUG] Grandstream Handsets and Open VPN

[Nate Burke]

I'm getting more requests for office people to take handsets home with 
them.  The Grandstream handset offers an OpenVPN client (The PBX is 
outside of their office network on a WAN Address already). What are 
thoughts on making remote SIP devices use a VPN.  It seems that it would 
cut down on any number of NAT issues if it works the way I think that it 
should.


I can manage the Devices with the GDMS Cloud, so I'm not worried about 
the config of the phone.  Does the VPN actually solve any network 
connectivity problems, or just add more complexity and points of failure?


--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Lent rules

[James Howard]

Depends on what you serve.  Isn’t that how appreciation of the meal is 
expressed in some cultures?  Oh wait…..  that’s belching isn’t it.  Doh!  I’ve 
had it wrong all these years…….

From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 3:13 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Cc: Chuck McCown 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Lent rules

Are you going to fart?

From: James Howard
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 2:09 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Lent rules

Did you just invite us all over for dinner?

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 2:59 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Cc: Chuck McCown mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com>>
Subject: [AFMUG] Lent rules

I have been asked to clearly elucidate the rules and then to actually follow 
them myself.  gasp!
Second half is the hard part...

So where is the line between political and non political content?  If the FCC 
is involved, it is political but it is clearly appropriate for the list.

Do we ban partisan political comments?  I think yes.  That is an easy one.  
Election stuff etc.

I am imagining we will just go back to how it was.  No politics.

If someone calls “lent” the thread dies.  But even if another debate rages and 
people are getting nasty and personal no problem in calling “lent” in those 
cases too. No personal attacks etc.

Let’s attempt to keep the language PG rated.  Seeing a bunch of profanity is 
the same as if you are passing gas at my dinner table.

And of course an upper case OT in the subject line for non WISP ISP FISP 
technical content.

Total Control Panel

Login


To: 
ja...@litewire.net

From: af-boun...@af.afmug.com





You received this message because the domain afmug.com is on your allow list.




--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Total Control Panel

Login


To: 
ja...@litewire.net

From: af-boun...@af.afmug.com





You received this message because the domain afmug.com is on your allow list.



-- 
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AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Lent rules

[Chuck McCown via AF]

Are you going to fart?

From: James Howard 
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 2:09 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Lent rules

Did you just invite us all over for dinner?

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 2:59 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Cc: Chuck McCown 
Subject: [AFMUG] Lent rules

 

I have been asked to clearly elucidate the rules and then to actually follow 
them myself.  gasp!  

Second half is the hard part...

 

So where is the line between political and non political content?  If the FCC 
is involved, it is political but it is clearly appropriate for the list.

 

Do we ban partisan political comments?  I think yes.  That is an easy one.  
Election stuff etc.  

 

I am imagining we will just go back to how it was.  No politics.  

 

If someone calls “lent” the thread dies.  But even if another debate rages and 
people are getting nasty and personal no problem in calling “lent” in those 
cases too. No personal attacks etc.  

 

Let’s attempt to keep the language PG rated.  Seeing a bunch of profanity is 
the same as if you are passing gas at my dinner table.  

 

And of course an upper case OT in the subject line for non WISP ISP FISP 
technical content.  




Total Control Panel
   Login
   
 
  To: ja...@litewire.net
 
  From: af-boun...@af.afmug.com
 

   
 
You received this message because the domain afmug.com is on your 
allow list.
   
 

 




-- 
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AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] Lent rules

[James Howard]

Did you just invite us all over for dinner?

From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 2:59 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Cc: Chuck McCown 
Subject: [AFMUG] Lent rules

I have been asked to clearly elucidate the rules and then to actually follow 
them myself.  gasp!
Second half is the hard part...

So where is the line between political and non political content?  If the FCC 
is involved, it is political but it is clearly appropriate for the list.

Do we ban partisan political comments?  I think yes.  That is an easy one.  
Election stuff etc.

I am imagining we will just go back to how it was.  No politics.

If someone calls “lent” the thread dies.  But even if another debate rages and 
people are getting nasty and personal no problem in calling “lent” in those 
cases too. No personal attacks etc.

Let’s attempt to keep the language PG rated.  Seeing a bunch of profanity is 
the same as if you are passing gas at my dinner table.

And of course an upper case OT in the subject line for non WISP ISP FISP 
technical content.

Total Control Panel

Login


To: 
ja...@litewire.net

From: af-boun...@af.afmug.com





You received this message because the domain afmug.com is on your allow list.



-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

[AFMUG] Lent rules

[Chuck McCown via AF]

I have been asked to clearly elucidate the rules and then to actually follow 
them myself.  gasp!  
Second half is the hard part...

So where is the line between political and non political content?  If the FCC 
is involved, it is political but it is clearly appropriate for the list.

Do we ban partisan political comments?  I think yes.  That is an easy one.  
Election stuff etc.  

I am imagining we will just go back to how it was.  No politics.  

If someone calls “lent” the thread dies.  But even if another debate rages and 
people are getting nasty and personal no problem in calling “lent” in those 
cases too. No personal attacks etc.  

Let’s attempt to keep the language PG rated.  Seeing a bunch of profanity is 
the same as if you are passing gas at my dinner table.  

And of course an upper case OT in the subject line for non WISP ISP FISP 
technical content.  -- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

[Steve Jones]

Crown being nectar hand delivered from the gods comes with no hangover. You
are blessed with cranial anointment. When in the presence of  something
blessed by deities its understandable that the human body may feel some
discomfort. its hard to put any number on that

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 2:39 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:

> Can you calculate the severity of a Crown Royal hangover vs Tequila
> hangover?
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 12:19 PM Mathew Howard 
> wrote:
>
>> When calculating the cost of a hangover, is a higher or lower dollar to
>> misery ratio more desirable?
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 2:02 PM Steve Jones 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I dont care what anyone says, sapporo is superior to most everything.
>>> Heineken takes a close second. using the math, i can drink 6 heinekens and
>>> 6 sapporo in the same sitting and will not be able to differentiate which
>>> cause the hangover. but that is a 6 in 12 probability that it was either
>>> one or the other. Pricing between the two is similar, so it would be hard
>>> to nail down the ounce cost per hour of hangover to any reliable number.
>>> All I know is that if it had been tequila I drank 12 of I would have either
>>> had a fight or a fat girl. hangovers cant get pregnant, so the cost per
>>> ounce in regard to the overall risk I would say is much higher with
>>> tequila. An 18 year hangover.
>>>
>>> That being said, 15 years in and I still cant describe fresnel in
>>> laymens terms clearly enough for a non geek to understand
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 1:55 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 So, since I have the bully-pulpit I will unfairly fire a final shot and
 then obey my own Lent proclamation.

 My thoughts behind my post yesterday were along these lines:
 We have had hundreds if not thousands of protests in DC.
 Pretty big one in 1812 that burned down the Capitol building...
 Politics have protests.
 1968 was another banner year.  Lots of folks killed that year.

 You and I obviously feel differently about an attack on the democracy.

 To me, this was a bunch of rednecks trying to occupy a federal building
 like the Bundys did in Oregon.   Blowing off steam.  The capitol building
 is a public place.  If you behave yourself you normally have pretty much
 free run of the place as a visitor.

 Surprised the cops didn’t shoot more of them but still, political
 gatherings and protests are part of our rights to assemble.  We want the
 cops to deescalate.  I think they held themselves in check pretty well
 yesterday.

 In my opinion it was not a “literal attack on the heart of our
 democracy” because there was NO WAY it could have succeeded.  But half the
 news media tried to make the case that it was.

 The worst thing they could have done was to delay a pro-forma
 procedure.  And they delayed it.  Even if they had occupied the capitol,
 the lawmakers would have convened somewhere else and done their job.  If
 they had killed all the lawmakers, there is a procedure for the states to
 send new ones.

 We have a pretty self healing system here.  Stand back and let them
 spend their pent up anger.  Not helping much that POTUS enabled/encouraged
 it but, hey, he is gone.  His legacy is crap, this just made it more
 crap.He will become a worldwide pariah.  That will amuse me.

 So while you see one thing, I see a different thing.  I see folks that
 get themselves worked up by 4chan and Qanon and Fox and Rush.  Folks
 itching for a fight.  Folks that never learned how to get along with
 others.  So the sharks and jets had a rumble.  Now it is over.

 But I stand by my metric of counting the magnitude of a riot.  People
 times time + damage caused.  Who cares why they were rioting, these things
 are measurable.  Science B*tch.



 *From:* Carl Peterson
 *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:35 PM
 *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
 *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

 I shouldn't have used "BS".

 As others have pointed out, one was a literal attack on the heart of
 our democracy, encouraged and incited (IMHO) by the president of our
 country.   Not much can come close to that.  You could burn all of Portland
 and it wouldn't come close.  Then again I care a lot more about our
 democracy then I care about Portland.

 Just say what the rules re OT politics are.  We will follow them.

 On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 1:24 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
 wrote:

> I could argue number of people involved, number of days in protest,
> number or people hurt, number of cops hurt, $ of damage done etc etc and
> compare the two by the numbers.
>
> Pretty sure I am right.  Just crunch the numbers.  There is no “side”
> to simple counting of participants times time.
>
> But to you my 

Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

[Mathew Howard]

But if you consider that you'll drink all of it, regardless of the size of
the bottle, and whether you have 9 or 6, that makes the Lite more
expensive... and I'm fairly sure you'll feel worse.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 2:33 PM Steve Jones 
wrote:

> I think lower. You want to pay less to feel bad, more to feel good 8 would
> think.
>
> Miller lite is american, it would be third, but is my beer of choice since
> it's at the beer store 2 blocks down. It has the superior aluminum bottle.
> Its 18 oz instead of 12, so calculations can get off since a six pack is
> nine beers, but they sell them in a nine pack so you dont realize you're
> drinking 13.5 beers in a sitting. Probably psychology behind that math.
> American trickery and all. It's got a pretty low dollar to misery ratio
> though, so technically it might be superior to the other two on that scale.
> Sapporo 10$ per 6 12 oz bottles
> Heineken 9$ per 1 12 oz bottles
> Lite 11 dollars per 9 18 oz aluminum bottles.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, 2:19 PM Mathew Howard  wrote:
>
>> When calculating the cost of a hangover, is a higher or lower dollar to
>> misery ratio more desirable?
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 2:02 PM Steve Jones 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I dont care what anyone says, sapporo is superior to most everything.
>>> Heineken takes a close second. using the math, i can drink 6 heinekens and
>>> 6 sapporo in the same sitting and will not be able to differentiate which
>>> cause the hangover. but that is a 6 in 12 probability that it was either
>>> one or the other. Pricing between the two is similar, so it would be hard
>>> to nail down the ounce cost per hour of hangover to any reliable number.
>>> All I know is that if it had been tequila I drank 12 of I would have either
>>> had a fight or a fat girl. hangovers cant get pregnant, so the cost per
>>> ounce in regard to the overall risk I would say is much higher with
>>> tequila. An 18 year hangover.
>>>
>>> That being said, 15 years in and I still cant describe fresnel in
>>> laymens terms clearly enough for a non geek to understand
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 1:55 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 So, since I have the bully-pulpit I will unfairly fire a final shot and
 then obey my own Lent proclamation.

 My thoughts behind my post yesterday were along these lines:
 We have had hundreds if not thousands of protests in DC.
 Pretty big one in 1812 that burned down the Capitol building...
 Politics have protests.
 1968 was another banner year.  Lots of folks killed that year.

 You and I obviously feel differently about an attack on the democracy.

 To me, this was a bunch of rednecks trying to occupy a federal building
 like the Bundys did in Oregon.   Blowing off steam.  The capitol building
 is a public place.  If you behave yourself you normally have pretty much
 free run of the place as a visitor.

 Surprised the cops didn’t shoot more of them but still, political
 gatherings and protests are part of our rights to assemble.  We want the
 cops to deescalate.  I think they held themselves in check pretty well
 yesterday.

 In my opinion it was not a “literal attack on the heart of our
 democracy” because there was NO WAY it could have succeeded.  But half the
 news media tried to make the case that it was.

 The worst thing they could have done was to delay a pro-forma
 procedure.  And they delayed it.  Even if they had occupied the capitol,
 the lawmakers would have convened somewhere else and done their job.  If
 they had killed all the lawmakers, there is a procedure for the states to
 send new ones.

 We have a pretty self healing system here.  Stand back and let them
 spend their pent up anger.  Not helping much that POTUS enabled/encouraged
 it but, hey, he is gone.  His legacy is crap, this just made it more
 crap.He will become a worldwide pariah.  That will amuse me.

 So while you see one thing, I see a different thing.  I see folks that
 get themselves worked up by 4chan and Qanon and Fox and Rush.  Folks
 itching for a fight.  Folks that never learned how to get along with
 others.  So the sharks and jets had a rumble.  Now it is over.

 But I stand by my metric of counting the magnitude of a riot.  People
 times time + damage caused.  Who cares why they were rioting, these things
 are measurable.  Science B*tch.



 *From:* Carl Peterson
 *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:35 PM
 *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
 *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

 I shouldn't have used "BS".

 As others have pointed out, one was a literal attack on the heart of
 our democracy, encouraged and incited (IMHO) by the president of our
 country.   Not much can come close to that.  You could burn all of Portland
 and it wouldn't come close.  Then again I 

Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

[Ryan Ray]

Can you calculate the severity of a Crown Royal hangover vs Tequila
hangover?


On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 12:19 PM Mathew Howard  wrote:

> When calculating the cost of a hangover, is a higher or lower dollar to
> misery ratio more desirable?
>
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 2:02 PM Steve Jones 
> wrote:
>
>> I dont care what anyone says, sapporo is superior to most everything.
>> Heineken takes a close second. using the math, i can drink 6 heinekens and
>> 6 sapporo in the same sitting and will not be able to differentiate which
>> cause the hangover. but that is a 6 in 12 probability that it was either
>> one or the other. Pricing between the two is similar, so it would be hard
>> to nail down the ounce cost per hour of hangover to any reliable number.
>> All I know is that if it had been tequila I drank 12 of I would have either
>> had a fight or a fat girl. hangovers cant get pregnant, so the cost per
>> ounce in regard to the overall risk I would say is much higher with
>> tequila. An 18 year hangover.
>>
>> That being said, 15 years in and I still cant describe fresnel in laymens
>> terms clearly enough for a non geek to understand
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 1:55 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> So, since I have the bully-pulpit I will unfairly fire a final shot and
>>> then obey my own Lent proclamation.
>>>
>>> My thoughts behind my post yesterday were along these lines:
>>> We have had hundreds if not thousands of protests in DC.
>>> Pretty big one in 1812 that burned down the Capitol building...
>>> Politics have protests.
>>> 1968 was another banner year.  Lots of folks killed that year.
>>>
>>> You and I obviously feel differently about an attack on the democracy.
>>>
>>> To me, this was a bunch of rednecks trying to occupy a federal building
>>> like the Bundys did in Oregon.   Blowing off steam.  The capitol building
>>> is a public place.  If you behave yourself you normally have pretty much
>>> free run of the place as a visitor.
>>>
>>> Surprised the cops didn’t shoot more of them but still, political
>>> gatherings and protests are part of our rights to assemble.  We want the
>>> cops to deescalate.  I think they held themselves in check pretty well
>>> yesterday.
>>>
>>> In my opinion it was not a “literal attack on the heart of our
>>> democracy” because there was NO WAY it could have succeeded.  But half the
>>> news media tried to make the case that it was.
>>>
>>> The worst thing they could have done was to delay a pro-forma
>>> procedure.  And they delayed it.  Even if they had occupied the capitol,
>>> the lawmakers would have convened somewhere else and done their job.  If
>>> they had killed all the lawmakers, there is a procedure for the states to
>>> send new ones.
>>>
>>> We have a pretty self healing system here.  Stand back and let them
>>> spend their pent up anger.  Not helping much that POTUS enabled/encouraged
>>> it but, hey, he is gone.  His legacy is crap, this just made it more
>>> crap.He will become a worldwide pariah.  That will amuse me.
>>>
>>> So while you see one thing, I see a different thing.  I see folks that
>>> get themselves worked up by 4chan and Qanon and Fox and Rush.  Folks
>>> itching for a fight.  Folks that never learned how to get along with
>>> others.  So the sharks and jets had a rumble.  Now it is over.
>>>
>>> But I stand by my metric of counting the magnitude of a riot.  People
>>> times time + damage caused.  Who cares why they were rioting, these things
>>> are measurable.  Science B*tch.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Carl Peterson
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:35 PM
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB
>>>
>>> I shouldn't have used "BS".
>>>
>>> As others have pointed out, one was a literal attack on the heart of our
>>> democracy, encouraged and incited (IMHO) by the president of our country.
>>> Not much can come close to that.  You could burn all of Portland and it
>>> wouldn't come close.  Then again I care a lot more about our democracy then
>>> I care about Portland.
>>>
>>> Just say what the rules re OT politics are.  We will follow them.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 1:24 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I could argue number of people involved, number of days in protest,
 number or people hurt, number of cops hurt, $ of damage done etc etc and
 compare the two by the numbers.

 Pretty sure I am right.  Just crunch the numbers.  There is no “side”
 to simple counting of participants times time.

 But to you my comment “one sided inflammatory BS” .

 Sorry I offered ANY opinion or commentary.
 My comment came very late in the day, the political argument started
 far earlier.



 *From:* Carl Peterson
 *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:14 PM
 *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
 *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

 Chuck,

 I know it is your list and your rules, but you can't 

Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

[Steve Jones]

At least not in the subject line

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, 2:24 PM James Howard  wrote:

> Are you saying that UBNT is one of the 4 letter words that Chuck said we
> need to stop using?
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of * Steve Jones
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 2:17 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB
>
>
>
> it doesnt have to, all you have to do is accept that butter is a primary
> food group and kale has no business on a plate. Fish Food is for fish, not
> people. That truly is the only way to move forward. That and not using UBNT
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 2:12 PM Cameron Crum  wrote:
>
> Aaaanddd it just keeps going.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 2:07 PM Adam Moffett  wrote:
>
> You can call Godwin's law if you want to, but I am going to draw a certain
> parallel with history:
>
> A lot of people in Germany were convinced in their heart of hearts that
> certain groups of people were destroying their country: Jews, Communists,
> Slavs, Gypsies, etc.
>
> A lot of people in this country are now convinced in their heart of hearts
> that certain groups of people are destroying their country: pedophiles,
> communists, "elites", the gay agenda, Hispanic migrants, etc.
>
> The parallel is that they were utterly, factually wrong in both cases, but
> in both cases they were so sure of their correctness that they were willing
> to take drastic action.  As long as people cling to their alternative set
> of facts the logical conclusion will be that they have to take action to
> stop the evil pedophile, communist, etc people who are destroying their
> country.
>
> You're thinking they've blown off steam and it's over, and I hope you're
> right, but I think it's just starting.
>
>
>
> On 1/7/2021 2:54 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>
> So, since I have the bully-pulpit I will unfairly fire a final shot and
> then obey my own Lent proclamation.
>
>
>
> My thoughts behind my post yesterday were along these lines:
>
> We have had hundreds if not thousands of protests in DC.
>
> Pretty big one in 1812 that burned down the Capitol building...
>
> Politics have protests.
>
> 1968 was another banner year.  Lots of folks killed that year.
>
>
>
> You and I obviously feel differently about an attack on the democracy.
>
>
>
> To me, this was a bunch of rednecks trying to occupy a federal building
> like the Bundys did in Oregon.   Blowing off steam.  The capitol building
> is a public place.  If you behave yourself you normally have pretty much
> free run of the place as a visitor.
>
>
>
> Surprised the cops didn’t shoot more of them but still, political
> gatherings and protests are part of our rights to assemble.  We want the
> cops to deescalate.  I think they held themselves in check pretty well
> yesterday.
>
>
>
> In my opinion it was not a “literal attack on the heart of our democracy”
> because there was NO WAY it could have succeeded.  But half the news media
> tried to make the case that it was.
>
>
>
> The worst thing they could have done was to delay a pro-forma procedure.
> And they delayed it.  Even if they had occupied the capitol, the lawmakers
> would have convened somewhere else and done their job.  If they had killed
> all the lawmakers, there is a procedure for the states to send new ones.
>
>
>
> We have a pretty self healing system here.  Stand back and let them spend
> their pent up anger.  Not helping much that POTUS enabled/encouraged it
> but, hey, he is gone.  His legacy is crap, this just made it more crap.
> He will become a worldwide pariah.  That will amuse me.
>
>
>
> So while you see one thing, I see a different thing.  I see folks that get
> themselves worked up by 4chan and Qanon and Fox and Rush.  Folks itching
> for a fight.  Folks that never learned how to get along with others.  So
> the sharks and jets had a rumble.  Now it is over.
>
>
>
> But I stand by my metric of counting the magnitude of a riot.  People
> times time + damage caused.  Who cares why they were rioting, these things
> are measurable.  Science B*tch.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Carl Peterson
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:35 PM
>
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB
>
>
>
> I shouldn't have used "BS".
>
>
>
> As others have pointed out, one was a literal attack on the heart of our
> democracy, encouraged and incited (IMHO) by the president of our country.
> Not much can come close to that.  You could burn all of Portland and it
> wouldn't come close.  Then again I care a lot more about our democracy then
> I care about Portland.
>
>
>
> Just say what the rules re OT politics are.  We will follow them.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 1:24 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
> I could argue number of people involved, number of days in protest, number
> or people hurt, number of cops hurt, $ of damage done etc etc and compare
> the two by the numbers.
>
>
>
> Pretty sure I am right.  Just crunch the numbers.  There is no “side” to

Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

[Steve Jones]

I think lower. You want to pay less to feel bad, more to feel good 8 would
think.

Miller lite is american, it would be third, but is my beer of choice since
it's at the beer store 2 blocks down. It has the superior aluminum bottle.
Its 18 oz instead of 12, so calculations can get off since a six pack is
nine beers, but they sell them in a nine pack so you dont realize you're
drinking 13.5 beers in a sitting. Probably psychology behind that math.
American trickery and all. It's got a pretty low dollar to misery ratio
though, so technically it might be superior to the other two on that scale.
Sapporo 10$ per 6 12 oz bottles
Heineken 9$ per 1 12 oz bottles
Lite 11 dollars per 9 18 oz aluminum bottles.



On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, 2:19 PM Mathew Howard  wrote:

> When calculating the cost of a hangover, is a higher or lower dollar to
> misery ratio more desirable?
>
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 2:02 PM Steve Jones 
> wrote:
>
>> I dont care what anyone says, sapporo is superior to most everything.
>> Heineken takes a close second. using the math, i can drink 6 heinekens and
>> 6 sapporo in the same sitting and will not be able to differentiate which
>> cause the hangover. but that is a 6 in 12 probability that it was either
>> one or the other. Pricing between the two is similar, so it would be hard
>> to nail down the ounce cost per hour of hangover to any reliable number.
>> All I know is that if it had been tequila I drank 12 of I would have either
>> had a fight or a fat girl. hangovers cant get pregnant, so the cost per
>> ounce in regard to the overall risk I would say is much higher with
>> tequila. An 18 year hangover.
>>
>> That being said, 15 years in and I still cant describe fresnel in laymens
>> terms clearly enough for a non geek to understand
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 1:55 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> So, since I have the bully-pulpit I will unfairly fire a final shot and
>>> then obey my own Lent proclamation.
>>>
>>> My thoughts behind my post yesterday were along these lines:
>>> We have had hundreds if not thousands of protests in DC.
>>> Pretty big one in 1812 that burned down the Capitol building...
>>> Politics have protests.
>>> 1968 was another banner year.  Lots of folks killed that year.
>>>
>>> You and I obviously feel differently about an attack on the democracy.
>>>
>>> To me, this was a bunch of rednecks trying to occupy a federal building
>>> like the Bundys did in Oregon.   Blowing off steam.  The capitol building
>>> is a public place.  If you behave yourself you normally have pretty much
>>> free run of the place as a visitor.
>>>
>>> Surprised the cops didn’t shoot more of them but still, political
>>> gatherings and protests are part of our rights to assemble.  We want the
>>> cops to deescalate.  I think they held themselves in check pretty well
>>> yesterday.
>>>
>>> In my opinion it was not a “literal attack on the heart of our
>>> democracy” because there was NO WAY it could have succeeded.  But half the
>>> news media tried to make the case that it was.
>>>
>>> The worst thing they could have done was to delay a pro-forma
>>> procedure.  And they delayed it.  Even if they had occupied the capitol,
>>> the lawmakers would have convened somewhere else and done their job.  If
>>> they had killed all the lawmakers, there is a procedure for the states to
>>> send new ones.
>>>
>>> We have a pretty self healing system here.  Stand back and let them
>>> spend their pent up anger.  Not helping much that POTUS enabled/encouraged
>>> it but, hey, he is gone.  His legacy is crap, this just made it more
>>> crap.He will become a worldwide pariah.  That will amuse me.
>>>
>>> So while you see one thing, I see a different thing.  I see folks that
>>> get themselves worked up by 4chan and Qanon and Fox and Rush.  Folks
>>> itching for a fight.  Folks that never learned how to get along with
>>> others.  So the sharks and jets had a rumble.  Now it is over.
>>>
>>> But I stand by my metric of counting the magnitude of a riot.  People
>>> times time + damage caused.  Who cares why they were rioting, these things
>>> are measurable.  Science B*tch.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Carl Peterson
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:35 PM
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB
>>>
>>> I shouldn't have used "BS".
>>>
>>> As others have pointed out, one was a literal attack on the heart of our
>>> democracy, encouraged and incited (IMHO) by the president of our country.
>>> Not much can come close to that.  You could burn all of Portland and it
>>> wouldn't come close.  Then again I care a lot more about our democracy then
>>> I care about Portland.
>>>
>>> Just say what the rules re OT politics are.  We will follow them.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 1:24 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I could argue number of people involved, number of days in protest,
 number or people hurt, number of cops hurt, $ of damage done etc etc 

Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

[Chuck McCown via AF]

Lent

From: James Howard 
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 1:23 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

Are you saying that UBNT is one of the 4 letter words that Chuck said we need 
to stop using?

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 2:17 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

 

it doesnt have to, all you have to do is accept that butter is a primary food 
group and kale has no business on a plate. Fish Food is for fish, not people. 
That truly is the only way to move forward. That and not using UBNT

 

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 2:12 PM Cameron Crum  wrote:

  Aaaanddd it just keeps going. 

   

  On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 2:07 PM Adam Moffett  wrote:

You can call Godwin's law if you want to, but I am going to draw a certain 
parallel with history:

A lot of people in Germany were convinced in their heart of hearts that 
certain groups of people were destroying their country: Jews, Communists, 
Slavs, Gypsies, etc.

A lot of people in this country are now convinced in their heart of hearts 
that certain groups of people are destroying their country: pedophiles, 
communists, "elites", the gay agenda, Hispanic migrants, etc.

The parallel is that they were utterly, factually wrong in both cases, but 
in both cases they were so sure of their correctness that they were willing to 
take drastic action.  As long as people cling to their alternative set of facts 
the logical conclusion will be that they have to take action to stop the evil 
pedophile, communist, etc people who are destroying their country.

You're thinking they've blown off steam and it's over, and I hope you're 
right, but I think it's just starting.  

 

On 1/7/2021 2:54 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

  So, since I have the bully-pulpit I will unfairly fire a final shot and 
then obey my own Lent proclamation.

   

  My thoughts behind my post yesterday were along these lines:

  We have had hundreds if not thousands of protests in DC.  

  Pretty big one in 1812 that burned down the Capitol building...

  Politics have protests.  

  1968 was another banner year.  Lots of folks killed that year.  

   

  You and I obviously feel differently about an attack on the democracy.  

   

  To me, this was a bunch of rednecks trying to occupy a federal building 
like the Bundys did in Oregon.   Blowing off steam.  The capitol building is a 
public place.  If you behave yourself you normally have pretty much free run of 
the place as a visitor.

   

  Surprised the cops didn’t shoot more of them but still, political 
gatherings and protests are part of our rights to assemble.  We want the cops 
to deescalate.  I think they held themselves in check pretty well yesterday.  

   

  In my opinion it was not a “literal attack on the heart of our democracy” 
because there was NO WAY it could have succeeded.  But half the news media 
tried to make the case that it was.

   

  The worst thing they could have done was to delay a pro-forma procedure.  
And they delayed it.  Even if they had occupied the capitol, the lawmakers 
would have convened somewhere else and done their job.  If they had killed all 
the lawmakers, there is a procedure for the states to send new ones.  

   

  We have a pretty self healing system here.  Stand back and let them spend 
their pent up anger.  Not helping much that POTUS enabled/encouraged it but, 
hey, he is gone.  His legacy is crap, this just made it more crap.He will 
become a worldwide pariah.  That will amuse me.  

   

  So while you see one thing, I see a different thing.  I see folks that 
get themselves worked up by 4chan and Qanon and Fox and Rush.  Folks itching 
for a fight.  Folks that never learned how to get along with others.  So the 
sharks and jets had a rumble.  Now it is over.

   

  But I stand by my metric of counting the magnitude of a riot.  People 
times time + damage caused.  Who cares why they were rioting, these things are 
measurable.  Science B*tch.  

   

   

   

  From: Carl Peterson 

  Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:35 PM

  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

   

  I shouldn't have used "BS".   

   

  As others have pointed out, one was a literal attack on the heart of our 
democracy, encouraged and incited (IMHO) by the president of our country.   Not 
much can come close to that.  You could burn all of Portland and it wouldn't 
come close.  Then again I care a lot more about our democracy then I care about 
Portland.  

   

  Just say what the rules re OT politics are.  We will follow them.  

   

  On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 1:24 PM Chuck McCown via AF  
wrote:

I could argue number of people involved, number of days in protest, 
number or people hurt, 

Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

[James Howard]

Are you saying that UBNT is one of the 4 letter words that Chuck said we need 
to stop using?

From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 2:17 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

it doesnt have to, all you have to do is accept that butter is a primary food 
group and kale has no business on a plate. Fish Food is for fish, not people. 
That truly is the only way to move forward. That and not using UBNT

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 2:12 PM Cameron Crum 
mailto:cc...@murcevilo.com>> wrote:
Aaaanddd it just keeps going.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 2:07 PM Adam Moffett 
mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

You can call Godwin's law if you want to, but I am going to draw a certain 
parallel with history:

A lot of people in Germany were convinced in their heart of hearts that certain 
groups of people were destroying their country: Jews, Communists, Slavs, 
Gypsies, etc.

A lot of people in this country are now convinced in their heart of hearts that 
certain groups of people are destroying their country: pedophiles, communists, 
"elites", the gay agenda, Hispanic migrants, etc.

The parallel is that they were utterly, factually wrong in both cases, but in 
both cases they were so sure of their correctness that they were willing to 
take drastic action.  As long as people cling to their alternative set of facts 
the logical conclusion will be that they have to take action to stop the evil 
pedophile, communist, etc people who are destroying their country.

You're thinking they've blown off steam and it's over, and I hope you're right, 
but I think it's just starting.


On 1/7/2021 2:54 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
So, since I have the bully-pulpit I will unfairly fire a final shot and then 
obey my own Lent proclamation.

My thoughts behind my post yesterday were along these lines:
We have had hundreds if not thousands of protests in DC.
Pretty big one in 1812 that burned down the Capitol building...
Politics have protests.
1968 was another banner year.  Lots of folks killed that year.

You and I obviously feel differently about an attack on the democracy.

To me, this was a bunch of rednecks trying to occupy a federal building like 
the Bundys did in Oregon.   Blowing off steam.  The capitol building is a 
public place.  If you behave yourself you normally have pretty much free run of 
the place as a visitor.

Surprised the cops didn’t shoot more of them but still, political gatherings 
and protests are part of our rights to assemble.  We want the cops to 
deescalate.  I think they held themselves in check pretty well yesterday.

In my opinion it was not a “literal attack on the heart of our democracy” 
because there was NO WAY it could have succeeded.  But half the news media 
tried to make the case that it was.

The worst thing they could have done was to delay a pro-forma procedure.  And 
they delayed it.  Even if they had occupied the capitol, the lawmakers would 
have convened somewhere else and done their job.  If they had killed all the 
lawmakers, there is a procedure for the states to send new ones.

We have a pretty self healing system here.  Stand back and let them spend their 
pent up anger.  Not helping much that POTUS enabled/encouraged it but, hey, he 
is gone.  His legacy is crap, this just made it more crap.He will become a 
worldwide pariah.  That will amuse me.

So while you see one thing, I see a different thing.  I see folks that get 
themselves worked up by 4chan and Qanon and Fox and Rush.  Folks itching for a 
fight.  Folks that never learned how to get along with others.  So the sharks 
and jets had a rumble.  Now it is over.

But I stand by my metric of counting the magnitude of a riot.  People times 
time + damage caused.  Who cares why they were rioting, these things are 
measurable.  Science B*tch.



From: Carl Peterson
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:35 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

I shouldn't have used "BS".

As others have pointed out, one was a literal attack on the heart of our 
democracy, encouraged and incited (IMHO) by the president of our country.   Not 
much can come close to that.  You could burn all of Portland and it wouldn't 
come close.  Then again I care a lot more about our democracy then I care about 
Portland.

Just say what the rules re OT politics are.  We will follow them.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 1:24 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> wrote:
I could argue number of people involved, number of days in protest, number or 
people hurt, number of cops hurt, $ of damage done etc etc and compare the two 
by the numbers.

Pretty sure I am right.  Just crunch the numbers.  There is no “side” to simple 
counting of participants times time.

But to you my comment “one sided inflammatory BS” .

Sorry I offered ANY opinion or commentary.
My comment came very late in the day, the political argument started far 
earlier.



From: Carl Peterson
Sent: Thursday, 

Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

[James Howard]

This is an outrage.  You didn’t list one American alcoholic drink in your 
choices.  Asian beer, Dutch beer and Mexican liquor.   Where is your patriotism 
man?

From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 2:02 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

I dont care what anyone says, sapporo is superior to most everything. Heineken 
takes a close second. using the math, i can drink 6 heinekens and 6 sapporo in 
the same sitting and will not be able to differentiate which cause the 
hangover. but that is a 6 in 12 probability that it was either one or the 
other. Pricing between the two is similar, so it would be hard to nail down the 
ounce cost per hour of hangover to any reliable number. All I know is that if 
it had been tequila I drank 12 of I would have either had a fight or a fat 
girl. hangovers cant get pregnant, so the cost per ounce in regard to the 
overall risk I would say is much higher with tequila. An 18 year hangover.

That being said, 15 years in and I still cant describe fresnel in laymens terms 
clearly enough for a non geek to understand



On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 1:55 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> wrote:
So, since I have the bully-pulpit I will unfairly fire a final shot and then 
obey my own Lent proclamation.

My thoughts behind my post yesterday were along these lines:
We have had hundreds if not thousands of protests in DC.
Pretty big one in 1812 that burned down the Capitol building...
Politics have protests.
1968 was another banner year.  Lots of folks killed that year.

You and I obviously feel differently about an attack on the democracy.

To me, this was a bunch of rednecks trying to occupy a federal building like 
the Bundys did in Oregon.   Blowing off steam.  The capitol building is a 
public place.  If you behave yourself you normally have pretty much free run of 
the place as a visitor.

Surprised the cops didn’t shoot more of them but still, political gatherings 
and protests are part of our rights to assemble.  We want the cops to 
deescalate.  I think they held themselves in check pretty well yesterday.

In my opinion it was not a “literal attack on the heart of our democracy” 
because there was NO WAY it could have succeeded.  But half the news media 
tried to make the case that it was.

The worst thing they could have done was to delay a pro-forma procedure.  And 
they delayed it.  Even if they had occupied the capitol, the lawmakers would 
have convened somewhere else and done their job.  If they had killed all the 
lawmakers, there is a procedure for the states to send new ones.

We have a pretty self healing system here.  Stand back and let them spend their 
pent up anger.  Not helping much that POTUS enabled/encouraged it but, hey, he 
is gone.  His legacy is crap, this just made it more crap.He will become a 
worldwide pariah.  That will amuse me.

So while you see one thing, I see a different thing.  I see folks that get 
themselves worked up by 4chan and Qanon and Fox and Rush.  Folks itching for a 
fight.  Folks that never learned how to get along with others.  So the sharks 
and jets had a rumble.  Now it is over.

But I stand by my metric of counting the magnitude of a riot.  People times 
time + damage caused.  Who cares why they were rioting, these things are 
measurable.  Science B*tch.



From: Carl Peterson
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:35 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

I shouldn't have used "BS".

As others have pointed out, one was a literal attack on the heart of our 
democracy, encouraged and incited (IMHO) by the president of our country.   Not 
much can come close to that.  You could burn all of Portland and it wouldn't 
come close.  Then again I care a lot more about our democracy then I care about 
Portland.

Just say what the rules re OT politics are.  We will follow them.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 1:24 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> wrote:
I could argue number of people involved, number of days in protest, number or 
people hurt, number of cops hurt, $ of damage done etc etc and compare the two 
by the numbers.

Pretty sure I am right.  Just crunch the numbers.  There is no “side” to simple 
counting of participants times time.

But to you my comment “one sided inflammatory BS” .

Sorry I offered ANY opinion or commentary.
My comment came very late in the day, the political argument started far 
earlier.



From: Carl Peterson
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:14 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

Chuck,

I know it is your list and your rules, but you can't say crap like "The DC crap 
today does not hold a candle in magnitude to the Portland and Seattle crap 
largely done by the other side.  Give and take."  and not expect it to start a 
political argument.  I think you are abundantly and dangerously wrong about 
that but I'm (mostly) holding my tongue.  We can't have a list 

Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

[Mathew Howard]

When calculating the cost of a hangover, is a higher or lower dollar to
misery ratio more desirable?

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 2:02 PM Steve Jones 
wrote:

> I dont care what anyone says, sapporo is superior to most everything.
> Heineken takes a close second. using the math, i can drink 6 heinekens and
> 6 sapporo in the same sitting and will not be able to differentiate which
> cause the hangover. but that is a 6 in 12 probability that it was either
> one or the other. Pricing between the two is similar, so it would be hard
> to nail down the ounce cost per hour of hangover to any reliable number.
> All I know is that if it had been tequila I drank 12 of I would have either
> had a fight or a fat girl. hangovers cant get pregnant, so the cost per
> ounce in regard to the overall risk I would say is much higher with
> tequila. An 18 year hangover.
>
> That being said, 15 years in and I still cant describe fresnel in laymens
> terms clearly enough for a non geek to understand
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 1:55 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> So, since I have the bully-pulpit I will unfairly fire a final shot and
>> then obey my own Lent proclamation.
>>
>> My thoughts behind my post yesterday were along these lines:
>> We have had hundreds if not thousands of protests in DC.
>> Pretty big one in 1812 that burned down the Capitol building...
>> Politics have protests.
>> 1968 was another banner year.  Lots of folks killed that year.
>>
>> You and I obviously feel differently about an attack on the democracy.
>>
>> To me, this was a bunch of rednecks trying to occupy a federal building
>> like the Bundys did in Oregon.   Blowing off steam.  The capitol building
>> is a public place.  If you behave yourself you normally have pretty much
>> free run of the place as a visitor.
>>
>> Surprised the cops didn’t shoot more of them but still, political
>> gatherings and protests are part of our rights to assemble.  We want the
>> cops to deescalate.  I think they held themselves in check pretty well
>> yesterday.
>>
>> In my opinion it was not a “literal attack on the heart of our democracy”
>> because there was NO WAY it could have succeeded.  But half the news media
>> tried to make the case that it was.
>>
>> The worst thing they could have done was to delay a pro-forma procedure.
>> And they delayed it.  Even if they had occupied the capitol, the lawmakers
>> would have convened somewhere else and done their job.  If they had killed
>> all the lawmakers, there is a procedure for the states to send new ones.
>>
>> We have a pretty self healing system here.  Stand back and let them spend
>> their pent up anger.  Not helping much that POTUS enabled/encouraged it
>> but, hey, he is gone.  His legacy is crap, this just made it more crap.
>> He will become a worldwide pariah.  That will amuse me.
>>
>> So while you see one thing, I see a different thing.  I see folks that
>> get themselves worked up by 4chan and Qanon and Fox and Rush.  Folks
>> itching for a fight.  Folks that never learned how to get along with
>> others.  So the sharks and jets had a rumble.  Now it is over.
>>
>> But I stand by my metric of counting the magnitude of a riot.  People
>> times time + damage caused.  Who cares why they were rioting, these things
>> are measurable.  Science B*tch.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Carl Peterson
>> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:35 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB
>>
>> I shouldn't have used "BS".
>>
>> As others have pointed out, one was a literal attack on the heart of our
>> democracy, encouraged and incited (IMHO) by the president of our country.
>> Not much can come close to that.  You could burn all of Portland and it
>> wouldn't come close.  Then again I care a lot more about our democracy then
>> I care about Portland.
>>
>> Just say what the rules re OT politics are.  We will follow them.
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 1:24 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I could argue number of people involved, number of days in protest,
>>> number or people hurt, number of cops hurt, $ of damage done etc etc and
>>> compare the two by the numbers.
>>>
>>> Pretty sure I am right.  Just crunch the numbers.  There is no “side” to
>>> simple counting of participants times time.
>>>
>>> But to you my comment “one sided inflammatory BS” .
>>>
>>> Sorry I offered ANY opinion or commentary.
>>> My comment came very late in the day, the political argument started far
>>> earlier.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Carl Peterson
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:14 PM
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB
>>>
>>> Chuck,
>>>
>>> I know it is your list and your rules, but you can't say crap like "The
>>> DC crap today does not hold a candle in magnitude to the Portland and
>>> Seattle crap largely done by the other side.  Give and take."  and not
>>> expect it to start a political argument.  I think you are abundantly and
>>> dangerously 

Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

[Steve Jones]

it doesnt have to, all you have to do is accept that butter is a primary
food group and kale has no business on a plate. Fish Food is for fish, not
people. That truly is the only way to move forward. That and not using UBNT

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 2:12 PM Cameron Crum  wrote:

> Aaaanddd it just keeps going.
>
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 2:07 PM Adam Moffett  wrote:
>
>> You can call Godwin's law if you want to, but I am going to draw a
>> certain parallel with history:
>>
>> A lot of people in Germany were convinced in their heart of hearts that
>> certain groups of people were destroying their country: Jews, Communists,
>> Slavs, Gypsies, etc.
>>
>> A lot of people in this country are now convinced in their heart of
>> hearts that certain groups of people are destroying their country:
>> pedophiles, communists, "elites", the gay agenda, Hispanic migrants, etc.
>>
>> The parallel is that they were utterly, factually wrong in both cases,
>> but in both cases they were so sure of their correctness that they were
>> willing to take drastic action.  As long as people cling to their
>> alternative set of facts the logical conclusion will be that they have to
>> take action to stop the evil pedophile, communist, etc people who are
>> destroying their country.
>>
>> You're thinking they've blown off steam and it's over, and I hope you're
>> right, but I think it's just starting.
>>
>>
>> On 1/7/2021 2:54 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>>
>> So, since I have the bully-pulpit I will unfairly fire a final shot and
>> then obey my own Lent proclamation.
>>
>> My thoughts behind my post yesterday were along these lines:
>> We have had hundreds if not thousands of protests in DC.
>> Pretty big one in 1812 that burned down the Capitol building...
>> Politics have protests.
>> 1968 was another banner year.  Lots of folks killed that year.
>>
>> You and I obviously feel differently about an attack on the democracy.
>>
>> To me, this was a bunch of rednecks trying to occupy a federal building
>> like the Bundys did in Oregon.   Blowing off steam.  The capitol building
>> is a public place.  If you behave yourself you normally have pretty much
>> free run of the place as a visitor.
>>
>> Surprised the cops didn’t shoot more of them but still, political
>> gatherings and protests are part of our rights to assemble.  We want the
>> cops to deescalate.  I think they held themselves in check pretty well
>> yesterday.
>>
>> In my opinion it was not a “literal attack on the heart of our democracy”
>> because there was NO WAY it could have succeeded.  But half the news media
>> tried to make the case that it was.
>>
>> The worst thing they could have done was to delay a pro-forma procedure.
>> And they delayed it.  Even if they had occupied the capitol, the lawmakers
>> would have convened somewhere else and done their job.  If they had killed
>> all the lawmakers, there is a procedure for the states to send new ones.
>>
>> We have a pretty self healing system here.  Stand back and let them spend
>> their pent up anger.  Not helping much that POTUS enabled/encouraged it
>> but, hey, he is gone.  His legacy is crap, this just made it more crap.
>> He will become a worldwide pariah.  That will amuse me.
>>
>> So while you see one thing, I see a different thing.  I see folks that
>> get themselves worked up by 4chan and Qanon and Fox and Rush.  Folks
>> itching for a fight.  Folks that never learned how to get along with
>> others.  So the sharks and jets had a rumble.  Now it is over.
>>
>> But I stand by my metric of counting the magnitude of a riot.  People
>> times time + damage caused.  Who cares why they were rioting, these things
>> are measurable.  Science B*tch.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Carl Peterson
>> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:35 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB
>>
>> I shouldn't have used "BS".
>>
>> As others have pointed out, one was a literal attack on the heart of our
>> democracy, encouraged and incited (IMHO) by the president of our country.
>> Not much can come close to that.  You could burn all of Portland and it
>> wouldn't come close.  Then again I care a lot more about our democracy then
>> I care about Portland.
>>
>> Just say what the rules re OT politics are.  We will follow them.
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 1:24 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I could argue number of people involved, number of days in protest,
>>> number or people hurt, number of cops hurt, $ of damage done etc etc and
>>> compare the two by the numbers.
>>>
>>> Pretty sure I am right.  Just crunch the numbers.  There is no “side” to
>>> simple counting of participants times time.
>>>
>>> But to you my comment “one sided inflammatory BS” .
>>>
>>> Sorry I offered ANY opinion or commentary.
>>> My comment came very late in the day, the political argument started far
>>> earlier.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Carl Peterson
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:14 PM
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm 

Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

[Cameron Crum]

Aaaanddd it just keeps going.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 2:07 PM Adam Moffett  wrote:

> You can call Godwin's law if you want to, but I am going to draw a certain
> parallel with history:
>
> A lot of people in Germany were convinced in their heart of hearts that
> certain groups of people were destroying their country: Jews, Communists,
> Slavs, Gypsies, etc.
>
> A lot of people in this country are now convinced in their heart of hearts
> that certain groups of people are destroying their country: pedophiles,
> communists, "elites", the gay agenda, Hispanic migrants, etc.
>
> The parallel is that they were utterly, factually wrong in both cases, but
> in both cases they were so sure of their correctness that they were willing
> to take drastic action.  As long as people cling to their alternative set
> of facts the logical conclusion will be that they have to take action to
> stop the evil pedophile, communist, etc people who are destroying their
> country.
>
> You're thinking they've blown off steam and it's over, and I hope you're
> right, but I think it's just starting.
>
>
> On 1/7/2021 2:54 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>
> So, since I have the bully-pulpit I will unfairly fire a final shot and
> then obey my own Lent proclamation.
>
> My thoughts behind my post yesterday were along these lines:
> We have had hundreds if not thousands of protests in DC.
> Pretty big one in 1812 that burned down the Capitol building...
> Politics have protests.
> 1968 was another banner year.  Lots of folks killed that year.
>
> You and I obviously feel differently about an attack on the democracy.
>
> To me, this was a bunch of rednecks trying to occupy a federal building
> like the Bundys did in Oregon.   Blowing off steam.  The capitol building
> is a public place.  If you behave yourself you normally have pretty much
> free run of the place as a visitor.
>
> Surprised the cops didn’t shoot more of them but still, political
> gatherings and protests are part of our rights to assemble.  We want the
> cops to deescalate.  I think they held themselves in check pretty well
> yesterday.
>
> In my opinion it was not a “literal attack on the heart of our democracy”
> because there was NO WAY it could have succeeded.  But half the news media
> tried to make the case that it was.
>
> The worst thing they could have done was to delay a pro-forma procedure.
> And they delayed it.  Even if they had occupied the capitol, the lawmakers
> would have convened somewhere else and done their job.  If they had killed
> all the lawmakers, there is a procedure for the states to send new ones.
>
> We have a pretty self healing system here.  Stand back and let them spend
> their pent up anger.  Not helping much that POTUS enabled/encouraged it
> but, hey, he is gone.  His legacy is crap, this just made it more crap.
> He will become a worldwide pariah.  That will amuse me.
>
> So while you see one thing, I see a different thing.  I see folks that get
> themselves worked up by 4chan and Qanon and Fox and Rush.  Folks itching
> for a fight.  Folks that never learned how to get along with others.  So
> the sharks and jets had a rumble.  Now it is over.
>
> But I stand by my metric of counting the magnitude of a riot.  People
> times time + damage caused.  Who cares why they were rioting, these things
> are measurable.  Science B*tch.
>
>
>
> *From:* Carl Peterson
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:35 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB
>
> I shouldn't have used "BS".
>
> As others have pointed out, one was a literal attack on the heart of our
> democracy, encouraged and incited (IMHO) by the president of our country.
> Not much can come close to that.  You could burn all of Portland and it
> wouldn't come close.  Then again I care a lot more about our democracy then
> I care about Portland.
>
> Just say what the rules re OT politics are.  We will follow them.
>
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 1:24 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> I could argue number of people involved, number of days in protest,
>> number or people hurt, number of cops hurt, $ of damage done etc etc and
>> compare the two by the numbers.
>>
>> Pretty sure I am right.  Just crunch the numbers.  There is no “side” to
>> simple counting of participants times time.
>>
>> But to you my comment “one sided inflammatory BS” .
>>
>> Sorry I offered ANY opinion or commentary.
>> My comment came very late in the day, the political argument started far
>> earlier.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Carl Peterson
>> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:14 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB
>>
>> Chuck,
>>
>> I know it is your list and your rules, but you can't say crap like "The
>> DC crap today does not hold a candle in magnitude to the Portland and
>> Seattle crap largely done by the other side.  Give and take."  and not
>> expect it to start a political argument.  I think you are abundantly and
>> dangerously wrong 

Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

[Adam Moffett]

You can call Godwin's law if you want to, but I am going to draw a 
certain parallel with history:


A lot of people in Germany were convinced in their heart of hearts that 
certain groups of people were destroying their country: Jews, 
Communists, Slavs, Gypsies, etc.


A lot of people in this country are now convinced in their heart of 
hearts that certain groups of people are destroying their country: 
pedophiles, communists, "elites", the gay agenda, Hispanic migrants, etc.


The parallel is that they were utterly, factually wrong in both cases, 
but in both cases they were so sure of their correctness that they were 
willing to take drastic action.  As long as people cling to their 
alternative set of facts the logical conclusion will be that they have 
to take action to stop the evil pedophile, communist, etc people who are 
destroying their country.


You're thinking they've blown off steam and it's over, and I hope you're 
right, but I think it's just starting.



On 1/7/2021 2:54 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
So, since I have the bully-pulpit I will unfairly fire a final shot 
and then obey my own Lent proclamation.

My thoughts behind my post yesterday were along these lines:
We have had hundreds if not thousands of protests in DC.
Pretty big one in 1812 that burned down the Capitol building...
Politics have protests.
1968 was another banner year.  Lots of folks killed that year.
You and I obviously feel differently about an attack on the democracy.
To me, this was a bunch of rednecks trying to occupy a federal 
building like the Bundys did in Oregon.   Blowing off steam.  The 
capitol building is a public place.  If you behave yourself you 
normally have pretty much free run of the place as a visitor.
Surprised the cops didn’t shoot more of them but still, political 
gatherings and protests are part of our rights to assemble.  We want 
the cops to deescalate.  I think they held themselves in check pretty 
well yesterday.
In my opinion it was not a “literal attack on the heart of our 
democracy” because there was NO WAY it could have succeeded.  But half 
the news media tried to make the case that it was.
The worst thing they could have done was to delay a pro-forma 
procedure.  And they delayed it.  Even if they had occupied the 
capitol, the lawmakers would have convened somewhere else and done 
their job.  If they had killed all the lawmakers, there is a procedure 
for the states to send new ones.
We have a pretty self healing system here.  Stand back and let them 
spend their pent up anger.  Not helping much that POTUS 
enabled/encouraged it but, hey, he is gone.  His legacy is crap, this 
just made it more crap.    He will become a worldwide pariah.  That 
will amuse me.
So while you see one thing, I see a different thing.  I see folks that 
get themselves worked up by 4chan and Qanon and Fox and Rush.  Folks 
itching for a fight.  Folks that never learned how to get along with 
others.  So the sharks and jets had a rumble.  Now it is over.
But I stand by my metric of counting the magnitude of a riot.  People 
times time + damage caused.  Who cares why they were rioting, these 
things are measurable.  Science B*tch.

*From:* Carl Peterson
*Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:35 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB
I shouldn't have used "BS".
As others have pointed out, one was a literal attack on the heart of 
our democracy, encouraged and incited (IMHO) by the president of our 
country.   Not much can come close to that.  You could burn all of 
Portland and it wouldn't come close.  Then again I care a lot more 
about our democracy then I care about Portland.

Just say what the rules re OT politics are.  We will follow them.
On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 1:24 PM Chuck McCown via AF  
wrote:


I could argue number of people involved, number of days in
protest, number or people hurt, number of cops hurt, $ of damage
done etc etc and compare the two by the numbers.
Pretty sure I am right.  Just crunch the numbers.  There is no
“side” to simple counting of participants times time.
But to you my comment “one sided inflammatory BS” .
Sorry I offered ANY opinion or commentary.
My comment came very late in the day, the political argument
started far earlier.
*From:* Carl Peterson
*Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:14 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB
Chuck,
I know it is your list and your rules, but you can't say crap like
"The DC crap today does not hold a candle in magnitude to the
Portland and Seattle crap largely done by the other side. Give and
take." and not expect it to start a political argument.  I think
you are abundantly and dangerously wrong about that but I'm
(mostly) holding my tongue.  We can't have a list where one sided
inflammatory BS like that is allowed but countering it is not.  
We either allow political discussions, which 

Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

[Steve Jones]

I dont care what anyone says, sapporo is superior to most everything.
Heineken takes a close second. using the math, i can drink 6 heinekens and
6 sapporo in the same sitting and will not be able to differentiate which
cause the hangover. but that is a 6 in 12 probability that it was either
one or the other. Pricing between the two is similar, so it would be hard
to nail down the ounce cost per hour of hangover to any reliable number.
All I know is that if it had been tequila I drank 12 of I would have either
had a fight or a fat girl. hangovers cant get pregnant, so the cost per
ounce in regard to the overall risk I would say is much higher with
tequila. An 18 year hangover.

That being said, 15 years in and I still cant describe fresnel in laymens
terms clearly enough for a non geek to understand



On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 1:55 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> So, since I have the bully-pulpit I will unfairly fire a final shot and
> then obey my own Lent proclamation.
>
> My thoughts behind my post yesterday were along these lines:
> We have had hundreds if not thousands of protests in DC.
> Pretty big one in 1812 that burned down the Capitol building...
> Politics have protests.
> 1968 was another banner year.  Lots of folks killed that year.
>
> You and I obviously feel differently about an attack on the democracy.
>
> To me, this was a bunch of rednecks trying to occupy a federal building
> like the Bundys did in Oregon.   Blowing off steam.  The capitol building
> is a public place.  If you behave yourself you normally have pretty much
> free run of the place as a visitor.
>
> Surprised the cops didn’t shoot more of them but still, political
> gatherings and protests are part of our rights to assemble.  We want the
> cops to deescalate.  I think they held themselves in check pretty well
> yesterday.
>
> In my opinion it was not a “literal attack on the heart of our democracy”
> because there was NO WAY it could have succeeded.  But half the news media
> tried to make the case that it was.
>
> The worst thing they could have done was to delay a pro-forma procedure.
> And they delayed it.  Even if they had occupied the capitol, the lawmakers
> would have convened somewhere else and done their job.  If they had killed
> all the lawmakers, there is a procedure for the states to send new ones.
>
> We have a pretty self healing system here.  Stand back and let them spend
> their pent up anger.  Not helping much that POTUS enabled/encouraged it
> but, hey, he is gone.  His legacy is crap, this just made it more crap.
> He will become a worldwide pariah.  That will amuse me.
>
> So while you see one thing, I see a different thing.  I see folks that get
> themselves worked up by 4chan and Qanon and Fox and Rush.  Folks itching
> for a fight.  Folks that never learned how to get along with others.  So
> the sharks and jets had a rumble.  Now it is over.
>
> But I stand by my metric of counting the magnitude of a riot.  People
> times time + damage caused.  Who cares why they were rioting, these things
> are measurable.  Science B*tch.
>
>
>
> *From:* Carl Peterson
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:35 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB
>
> I shouldn't have used "BS".
>
> As others have pointed out, one was a literal attack on the heart of our
> democracy, encouraged and incited (IMHO) by the president of our country.
> Not much can come close to that.  You could burn all of Portland and it
> wouldn't come close.  Then again I care a lot more about our democracy then
> I care about Portland.
>
> Just say what the rules re OT politics are.  We will follow them.
>
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 1:24 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> I could argue number of people involved, number of days in protest,
>> number or people hurt, number of cops hurt, $ of damage done etc etc and
>> compare the two by the numbers.
>>
>> Pretty sure I am right.  Just crunch the numbers.  There is no “side” to
>> simple counting of participants times time.
>>
>> But to you my comment “one sided inflammatory BS” .
>>
>> Sorry I offered ANY opinion or commentary.
>> My comment came very late in the day, the political argument started far
>> earlier.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Carl Peterson
>> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:14 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB
>>
>> Chuck,
>>
>> I know it is your list and your rules, but you can't say crap like "The
>> DC crap today does not hold a candle in magnitude to the Portland and
>> Seattle crap largely done by the other side.  Give and take."  and not
>> expect it to start a political argument.  I think you are abundantly and
>> dangerously wrong about that but I'm (mostly) holding my tongue.  We can't
>> have a list where one sided inflammatory BS like that is allowed but
>> countering it is not.   We either allow political discussions, which I'm
>> fine with, or we make a no politics rule.  The latter seems to 

Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

[Adam Moffett]

Also be sure to count how many pipe bombs were planted at party 
offices, how many guns were confiscated by police, how many coolers 
filled with molotov cocktails, how many US presidents encourage the 
action, how many national capitols were broken into, how much mail was 
stolen from senator's desks, etc.


If we're talking about number of people hurt, $ of damage, etc, then 
none of it even holds a candle to Los Angeles 1992.  In LA they did 
several times more damage in one week than was done in Portland over a 
few months.


But are these comparisons actually useful or informative? Or are they 
just efforts to downplay bad behavior?



On 1/7/2021 2:23 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
I could argue number of people involved, number of days in protest, 
number or people hurt, number of cops hurt, $ of damage done etc etc 
and compare the two by the numbers.
Pretty sure I am right.  Just crunch the numbers.  There is no “side” 
to simple counting of participants times time.

But to you my comment “one sided inflammatory BS” .
Sorry I offered ANY opinion or commentary.
My comment came very late in the day, the political argument started 
far earlier.

*From:* Carl Peterson
*Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:14 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB
Chuck,
I know it is your list and your rules, but you can't say crap like 
"The DC crap today does not hold a candle in magnitude to the Portland 
and Seattle crap largely done by the other side.  Give and take." and 
not expect it to start a political argument.  I think you are 
abundantly and dangerously wrong about that but I'm (mostly) holding 
my tongue.  We can't have a list where one sided inflammatory BS like 
that is allowed but countering it is not.   We either allow political 
discussions, which I'm fine with, or we make a no politics rule.  The 
latter seems to be the best option as there are too many brilliant 
minds who we will lose if we keep it up.
On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 4:37 PM Chuck McCown via AF  
wrote:


Sorry.  I don’t want to go back to the days of lent, but we have
to remain civil to do so.
The DC crap today does not hold a candle in magnitude to the
Portland and Seattle crap largely done by the other side.  Give
and take.
Folks wanna blow off steam.  It will be history tomorrow.
No need to pollute our list here with that energy, from either side.
*From:* Steve Jones
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 6, 2021 3:32 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB
youre no fun dad
Lent?
On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 4:31 PM Chuck McCown via AF
 wrote:

Kill thread.  We had been well behaved but nobody wants to see
a bunch of F words in a subject line.  There have been
complaints.
*From:* Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 6, 2021 3:23 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: Fucking Bullshit
That's the real problem. I've come to the conclusion that
almost no so-called news having anything to do with politics
is honest or reliable, no matter which side it comes from.
Almost all of it is slanted (if not outright dishonest) to
either fit their own view or manipulate their consumers into
supporting a particular agenda. Unfortunately, there seems to
be very little that can be done to fix it.
On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 4:17 PM Craig House
 wrote:

" a nugget of truth with a layer of bullshit on top"  Is
exactly how I take every bit of news from every outlet on
every station.   It is even more the case when the source
is a politician or anyone with a political agenda. This
includes most of the people on this list.   Very few on
either side can really provide an objective argument on
politics today.  I'd include myself in that group
therefore I tend to just delete or not reply to these
group messages because it only furthers the divide.   I
honestly dont see any long term solution to the divide we
have today. Mainstream media isn't going to help. Congress
isn't going to help and Trump isn't going to help. Neither
is anyone's opinion on this list


*From: *"Adam Moffett" 
*To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
*Sent: *Wednesday, January 6, 2021 4:09:22 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] OT: Fucking Bullshit

Look at the evidence closely and in each case you'll find
a nugget of truth with a layer of bullshit on top.  That
so many people are so thoroughly fooled by it is the most
distressing part. Look closer.  Stop being a fool.

The "coup" is when the 

Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

[Chuck McCown via AF]

So, since I have the bully-pulpit I will unfairly fire a final shot and then 
obey my own Lent proclamation.

My thoughts behind my post yesterday were along these lines:
We have had hundreds if not thousands of protests in DC.  
Pretty big one in 1812 that burned down the Capitol building...
Politics have protests.  
1968 was another banner year.  Lots of folks killed that year.  

You and I obviously feel differently about an attack on the democracy.  

To me, this was a bunch of rednecks trying to occupy a federal building like 
the Bundys did in Oregon.   Blowing off steam.  The capitol building is a 
public place.  If you behave yourself you normally have pretty much free run of 
the place as a visitor.

Surprised the cops didn’t shoot more of them but still, political gatherings 
and protests are part of our rights to assemble.  We want the cops to 
deescalate.  I think they held themselves in check pretty well yesterday.  

In my opinion it was not a “literal attack on the heart of our democracy” 
because there was NO WAY it could have succeeded.  But half the news media 
tried to make the case that it was.

The worst thing they could have done was to delay a pro-forma procedure.  And 
they delayed it.  Even if they had occupied the capitol, the lawmakers would 
have convened somewhere else and done their job.  If they had killed all the 
lawmakers, there is a procedure for the states to send new ones.  

We have a pretty self healing system here.  Stand back and let them spend their 
pent up anger.  Not helping much that POTUS enabled/encouraged it but, hey, he 
is gone.  His legacy is crap, this just made it more crap.He will become a 
worldwide pariah.  That will amuse me.  

So while you see one thing, I see a different thing.  I see folks that get 
themselves worked up by 4chan and Qanon and Fox and Rush.  Folks itching for a 
fight.  Folks that never learned how to get along with others.  So the sharks 
and jets had a rumble.  Now it is over.

But I stand by my metric of counting the magnitude of a riot.  People times 
time + damage caused.  Who cares why they were rioting, these things are 
measurable.  Science B*tch.  



From: Carl Peterson 
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:35 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

I shouldn't have used "BS".   

As others have pointed out, one was a literal attack on the heart of our 
democracy, encouraged and incited (IMHO) by the president of our country.   Not 
much can come close to that.  You could burn all of Portland and it wouldn't 
come close.  Then again I care a lot more about our democracy then I care about 
Portland.  

Just say what the rules re OT politics are.  We will follow them.  

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 1:24 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

  I could argue number of people involved, number of days in protest, number or 
people hurt, number of cops hurt, $ of damage done etc etc and compare the two 
by the numbers.  

  Pretty sure I am right.  Just crunch the numbers.  There is no “side” to 
simple counting of participants times time.  

  But to you my comment “one sided inflammatory BS” . 

  Sorry I offered ANY opinion or commentary.  
  My comment came very late in the day, the political argument started far 
earlier.  



  From: Carl Peterson 
  Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:14 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

  Chuck, 

  I know it is your list and your rules, but you can't say crap like "The DC 
crap today does not hold a candle in magnitude to the Portland and Seattle crap 
largely done by the other side.  Give and take."  and not expect it to start a 
political argument.  I think you are abundantly and dangerously wrong about 
that but I'm (mostly) holding my tongue.  We can't have a list where one sided 
inflammatory BS like that is allowed but countering it is not.   We either 
allow political discussions, which I'm fine with, or we make a no politics 
rule.  The latter seems to be the best option as there are too many brilliant 
minds who we will lose if we keep it up.  

  On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 4:37 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

Sorry.  I don’t want to go back to the days of lent, but we have to remain 
civil to do so.  

The DC crap today does not hold a candle in magnitude to the Portland and 
Seattle crap largely done by the other side.  Give and take.

Folks wanna blow off steam.  It will be history tomorrow.  

No need to pollute our list here with that energy, from either side.  

From: Steve Jones 
Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2021 3:32 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

youre no fun dad 

Lent?

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 4:31 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

  Kill thread.  We had been well behaved but nobody wants to see a bunch of 
F words in a subject line.  There have been complaints.  

  From: Mathew Howard 
  Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 

Re: [AFMUG] 2+0 Co-Polar

[Peter Kranz via AF]

4100 and 4800 only.. not 4200 since 4200 is a dual core single band radio.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2021 10:47 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 2+0 Co-Polar

 

But is A2C+ available on both the wtm4100 and 4200, or just the 4200?

 

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 12:45 PM Peter Kranz via AF mailto:af@af.afmug.com> > wrote:

A2C+ is a new SKU.. it’s a hardware change.

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of TJ Trout
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2021 10:38 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 2+0 Co-Polar

 

Is there a new wtm version with better a2c performance? we have some 4100's 
that we need to deploy with a2c and those I believe have the a2c losses still?

 

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 10:34 AM Mathew Howard mailto:mhoward...@gmail.com> > wrote:

That's interesting, I didn't realize Aviat didn't support 4+0 with A2C... 
that's good to know.

 

You're correct that Bridgewave is limited to 1024QAM in that configuration. I 
expected getting adjacent channels in 11ghz to be a problem, but it turned out 
that it actually wasn't here, so it's definitely worth looking into (at least 
if you're in a rural area).

 

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 12:05 PM Peter Kranz via AF mailto:af@af.afmug.com> > wrote:

The Aviat radios do not support 4+0 like this, the only support up to 3+0 in a 
single radio. I.e. running A2C/A2C+ on a 11 or 18Ghz radio core for 2+0, and 
running 70/80Ghz on another core. I believe this is do to a limitation in their 
internally switching hardware only allowing up to 3 channels to be aggregated. 

Bridgewave does support this, but their implementation is more restrictive in 
that the channels must be adjacent channels, and last I checked they are 
limited to 1024QAM. In my market I have had trouble getting the adjacent 
channels required to implement Bridgewave 4+0 links.

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2021 6:54 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 2+0 Co-Polar

 

Do these radios also let you do 4+0 with A2C+XPIC in one radio, rather than 2 
radios and a combiner?

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2021 7:14 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 2+0 Co-Polar

 

There's really not even a lot of good reasons to do it. If the Aviat radios are 
able to run full power now using A2C, you can accomplish pretty much the same 
that way (or using the equivalent feature with Bridgewave or SIAE).

 

On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 6:26 PM Ken Hohhof mailto:af...@kwisp.com> > wrote:

Yep.

One more thought – Part 101 is one of the best things we have, where we are on 
identical footing with the big guys.  We file the exact same paperwork, pay the 
same fees, get the same access, no sitting at the kids table.  I’m not going to 
risk losing that.

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Steve Jones
Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2021 5:36 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 2+0 Co-Polar

 

My coordinator told me no. Not a maybe no, but a flat no. Had to do primarily 
with the band edges. I'd love to do it, and the radios will do it. But the FCC 
gets involved and not only are you probably paying a massive fine, but you're 
losing substantial capacity you may be hinging your business on. The gain isnt 
worth the risk. I didnt push the issue to find out the specific rules 
prohibiting it, I represent a podunk wisp, the fcc is bigger than us. I'll 
lose. 

It's like the question of whether selling meth is illegal if you dont get 
caught. 

 

On Tue, Jan 5, 2021, 12:10 PM Ryan Ray mailto:ryan...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Hey Tim,

 

Does this rule have a reason? Or is it just a rule for rule's sake?

 

 

On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 4:47 AM Tim Hardy mailto:thardy...@gmail.com> > wrote:

A note of caution: Some vendors have been pushing the notion that at 11 GHz, 
one can coordinate and license an 80 MHz bandwidth pair along with a 40 MHz 
bandwidth pair separated by 60 MHz to in effect get a contiguous 120 MHz of 
spectrum. This is okay as long as you are transmitting two distinct frequency 
pairs - one with 80 MHz, and the other with 40 MHz. In the US it is NOT okay to 
unlock the radio to use ETSI 112 MHz bandwidth and transmit a single pair. 
Vendors that are pushing this concept need to stop as it violates at least two 
and possibly more FCC Rules. The licensee would be taking the risk - not the 
vendor.

 

On Jan 4, 2021, at 3:54 PM, mailto:joseph.schr...@siaemic.com> > mailto:joseph.schr...@siaemic.com> > wrote:

 

With the SIAE radio:

- 2+0 XPIC - minimal loss using the built-in OMT branching unit on the 
order of 0.5 dB per end

- 2+0 ACCP - 3.5 dB loss per end using the 

Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

[James Howard]

It seems like it should be pretty obvious to everyone at this point that no 
matter what is said on either side of these political issues that nothing is 
going to change the opinions and beliefs of people on the other side.  No 
matter how much “proof” either side has to show that they are right, no one is 
going to change their opinion.  I suppose there are always some people who 
straddle the fence (just watch out if you slip and it’s a picket or razor blade 
fence you’re straddling!) and might be swayed by something they see, but the 
reality is that nothing is gained by anyone by these conversations on a list 
like this.  In fact, much is lost……..  hopefully those that unsubscribed will 
come back.  Personally, as long as political discussions don’t get so vicious 
as they’ve been at times, I find many of them entertaining.  Overall though 
they seem to have caused more damage to this group than any benefit they’ve 
ever given.

From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 1:24 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: Chuck McCown 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

I could argue number of people involved, number of days in protest, number or 
people hurt, number of cops hurt, $ of damage done etc etc and compare the two 
by the numbers.

Pretty sure I am right.  Just crunch the numbers.  There is no “side” to simple 
counting of participants times time.

But to you my comment “one sided inflammatory BS” .

Sorry I offered ANY opinion or commentary.
My comment came very late in the day, the political argument started far 
earlier.



From: Carl Peterson
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:14 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

Chuck,

I know it is your list and your rules, but you can't say crap like "The DC crap 
today does not hold a candle in magnitude to the Portland and Seattle crap 
largely done by the other side.  Give and take."  and not expect it to start a 
political argument.  I think you are abundantly and dangerously wrong about 
that but I'm (mostly) holding my tongue.  We can't have a list where one sided 
inflammatory BS like that is allowed but countering it is not.   We either 
allow political discussions, which I'm fine with, or we make a no politics 
rule.  The latter seems to be the best option as there are too many brilliant 
minds who we will lose if we keep it up.

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 4:37 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> wrote:
Sorry.  I don’t want to go back to the days of lent, but we have to remain 
civil to do so.

The DC crap today does not hold a candle in magnitude to the Portland and 
Seattle crap largely done by the other side.  Give and take.

Folks wanna blow off steam.  It will be history tomorrow.

No need to pollute our list here with that energy, from either side.

From: Steve Jones
Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2021 3:32 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

youre no fun dad

Lent?

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 4:31 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> wrote:
Kill thread.  We had been well behaved but nobody wants to see a bunch of F 
words in a subject line.  There have been complaints.

From: Mathew Howard
Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2021 3:23 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: Fucking Bullshit

That's the real problem. I've come to the conclusion that almost no so-called 
news having anything to do with politics is honest or reliable, no matter which 
side it comes from. Almost all of it is slanted (if not outright dishonest) to 
either fit their own view or manipulate their consumers into supporting a 
particular agenda. Unfortunately, there seems to be very little that can be 
done to fix it.

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 4:17 PM Craig House 
mailto:cr...@totalhighspeed.net>> wrote:
" a nugget of truth with a layer of bullshit on top"  Is exactly how I take 
every bit of news from every outlet on every station.   It is even more the 
case when the source is a politician or anyone with a political agenda.  This 
includes most of the people on this list.   Very few on either side can really 
provide an objective argument on politics today.  I'd include myself in that 
group therefore I tend to just delete or not reply to these group messages 
because it only furthers the divide.   I honestly dont see any long term 
solution to the divide we have today.   Mainstream media isn't going to help.  
Congress isn't going to help and Trump isn't going to help.  Neither is 
anyone's opinion on this list



From: "Adam Moffett" mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>>
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2021 4:09:22 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: Fucking Bullshit


Look at the evidence closely and in each case you'll find a nugget of truth 
with a layer of bullshit on top.  That so many people are so thoroughly fooled 
by it is the most distressing part.  Look 

Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

[Carl Peterson]

I shouldn't have used "BS".

As others have pointed out, one was a literal attack on the heart of our
democracy, encouraged and incited (IMHO) by the president of our country.
 Not much can come close to that.  You could burn all of Portland and it
wouldn't come close.  Then again I care a lot more about our democracy then
I care about Portland.

Just say what the rules re OT politics are.  We will follow them.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 1:24 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> I could argue number of people involved, number of days in protest, number
> or people hurt, number of cops hurt, $ of damage done etc etc and compare
> the two by the numbers.
>
> Pretty sure I am right.  Just crunch the numbers.  There is no “side” to
> simple counting of participants times time.
>
> But to you my comment “one sided inflammatory BS” .
>
> Sorry I offered ANY opinion or commentary.
> My comment came very late in the day, the political argument started far
> earlier.
>
>
>
> *From:* Carl Peterson
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:14 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB
>
> Chuck,
>
> I know it is your list and your rules, but you can't say crap like "The
> DC crap today does not hold a candle in magnitude to the Portland and
> Seattle crap largely done by the other side.  Give and take."  and not
> expect it to start a political argument.  I think you are abundantly and
> dangerously wrong about that but I'm (mostly) holding my tongue.  We can't
> have a list where one sided inflammatory BS like that is allowed but
> countering it is not.   We either allow political discussions, which I'm
> fine with, or we make a no politics rule.  The latter seems to be the best
> option as there are too many brilliant minds who we will lose if we keep it
> up.
>
> On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 4:37 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> Sorry.  I don’t want to go back to the days of lent, but we have to
>> remain civil to do so.
>>
>> The DC crap today does not hold a candle in magnitude to the Portland and
>> Seattle crap largely done by the other side.  Give and take.
>>
>> Folks wanna blow off steam.  It will be history tomorrow.
>>
>> No need to pollute our list here with that energy, from either side.
>>
>> *From:* Steve Jones
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 6, 2021 3:32 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB
>>
>> youre no fun dad
>>
>> Lent?
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 4:31 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Kill thread.  We had been well behaved but nobody wants to see a bunch
>>> of F words in a subject line.  There have been complaints.
>>>
>>> *From:* Mathew Howard
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 6, 2021 3:23 PM
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: Fucking Bullshit
>>>
>>> That's the real problem. I've come to the conclusion that almost no
>>> so-called news having anything to do with politics is honest or reliable,
>>> no matter which side it comes from. Almost all of it is slanted (if not
>>> outright dishonest) to either fit their own view or manipulate their
>>> consumers into supporting a particular agenda. Unfortunately, there seems
>>> to be very little that can be done to fix it.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 4:17 PM Craig House 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 " a nugget of truth with a layer of bullshit on top"  Is exactly how I
 take every bit of news from every outlet on every station.   It is even
 more the case when the source is a politician or anyone with a political
 agenda.  This includes most of the people on this list.   Very few on
 either side can really provide an objective argument on politics today.
 I'd include myself in that group therefore I tend to just delete or not
 reply to these group messages because it only furthers the divide.   I
 honestly dont see any long term solution to the divide we have today.
 Mainstream media isn't going to help.  Congress isn't going to help and
 Trump isn't going to help.  Neither is anyone's opinion on this list


 --
 *From: *"Adam Moffett" 
 *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
 *Sent: *Wednesday, January 6, 2021 4:09:22 PM
 *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] OT: Fucking Bullshit


 Look at the evidence closely and in each case you'll find a nugget of
 truth with a layer of bullshit on top.  That so many people are so
 thoroughly fooled by it is the most distressing part.  Look closer.  Stop
 being a fool.

 The "coup" is when the loser thinks he can win by pretending hard
 enough.


 On 1/6/2021 5:05 PM, justsumname wrote:

 an election that is not conducted according to law is not an
 election.   it's a coup.
 Worse... if the 'election' is not transparent, verifiable, and treats
 every voter the same, it's not an "election".
 Worse ... if poll watchers are bullied and physically threatened...
 

Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

[Robert Andrews]

You take his tricorder, I'll take his wallet.

On 01/07/2021 11:19 AM, Steve Jones wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3at_Ev2kOoI

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 1:15 PM Carl Peterson > wrote:


Chuck,

I know it is your list and your rules, but you can't say crap like
"The DC crap today does not hold a candle in magnitude to the
Portland and Seattle crap largely done by the other side.  Give and
take." and not expect it to start a political argument.  I think you
are abundantly and dangerously wrong about that but I'm (mostly)
holding my tongue.  We can't have a list where one sided
inflammatory BS like that is allowed but countering it is not.   We
either allow political discussions, which I'm fine with, or we make
a no politics rule.  The latter seems to be the best option as there
are too many brilliant minds who we will lose if we keep it up.

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 4:37 PM Chuck McCown via AF mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> wrote:

Sorry.  I don’t want to go back to the days of lent, but we have
to remain civil to do so.
The DC crap today does not hold a candle in magnitude to the
Portland and Seattle crap largely done by the other side.  Give
and take.
Folks wanna blow off steam.  It will be history tomorrow.
No need to pollute our list here with that energy, from either
side.
*From:* Steve Jones
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 6, 2021 3:32 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB
youre no fun dad
Lent?
On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 4:31 PM Chuck McCown via AF
 wrote:

Kill thread.  We had been well behaved but nobody wants to
see a bunch of F words in a subject line.  There have been
complaints.
*From:* Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 6, 2021 3:23 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: Fucking Bullshit
That's the real problem. I've come to the conclusion that
almost no so-called news having anything to do with politics
is honest or reliable, no matter which side it comes from.
Almost all of it is slanted (if not outright dishonest) to
either fit their own view or manipulate their consumers into
supporting a particular agenda. Unfortunately, there seems
to be very little that can be done to fix it.
On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 4:17 PM Craig House
 wrote:

" a nugget of truth with a layer of bullshit on top"  Is
exactly how I take every bit of news from every outlet
on every station.   It is even more the case when the
source is a politician or anyone with a political
agenda.  This includes most of the people on this list.
Very few on either side can really provide an objective
argument on politics today.  I'd include myself in that
group therefore I tend to just delete or not reply to
these group messages because it only furthers the
divide.   I honestly dont see any long term solution to
the divide we have today.   Mainstream media isn't going
to help. Congress isn't going to help and Trump isn't
going to help.  Neither is anyone's opinion on this list


*From: *"Adam Moffett" 
*To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
*Sent: *Wednesday, January 6, 2021 4:09:22 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] OT: Fucking Bullshit

Look at the evidence closely and in each case you'll
find a nugget of truth with a layer of bullshit on top. 
That so many people are so thoroughly fooled by it is

the most distressing part.  Look closer.  Stop being a fool.

The "coup" is when the loser thinks he can win by
pretending hard enough.

On 1/6/2021 5:05 PM, justsumname wrote:

an election that is not conducted according to law
is not an election.   it's a coup.
Worse... if the 'election' is not transparent,
verifiable, and treats every voter the same, it's
not an "election".
Worse ... if poll watchers are bullied and
physically threatened... that is intolerable.
hereistheevidence.com
   --- in case you
dare open your mind to truth
Patton was correct, and so was that McCarthy guy,
 

Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

[Chuck McCown via AF]

I could argue number of people involved, number of days in protest, number or 
people hurt, number of cops hurt, $ of damage done etc etc and compare the two 
by the numbers.  

Pretty sure I am right.  Just crunch the numbers.  There is no “side” to simple 
counting of participants times time.  

But to you my comment “one sided inflammatory BS” . 

Sorry I offered ANY opinion or commentary.  
My comment came very late in the day, the political argument started far 
earlier.  



From: Carl Peterson 
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:14 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

Chuck, 

I know it is your list and your rules, but you can't say crap like "The DC crap 
today does not hold a candle in magnitude to the Portland and Seattle crap 
largely done by the other side.  Give and take."  and not expect it to start a 
political argument.  I think you are abundantly and dangerously wrong about 
that but I'm (mostly) holding my tongue.  We can't have a list where one sided 
inflammatory BS like that is allowed but countering it is not.   We either 
allow political discussions, which I'm fine with, or we make a no politics 
rule.  The latter seems to be the best option as there are too many brilliant 
minds who we will lose if we keep it up.  

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 4:37 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

  Sorry.  I don’t want to go back to the days of lent, but we have to remain 
civil to do so.  

  The DC crap today does not hold a candle in magnitude to the Portland and 
Seattle crap largely done by the other side.  Give and take.

  Folks wanna blow off steam.  It will be history tomorrow.  

  No need to pollute our list here with that energy, from either side.  

  From: Steve Jones 
  Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2021 3:32 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

  youre no fun dad 

  Lent?

  On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 4:31 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

Kill thread.  We had been well behaved but nobody wants to see a bunch of F 
words in a subject line.  There have been complaints.  

From: Mathew Howard 
Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2021 3:23 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: Fucking Bullshit

That's the real problem. I've come to the conclusion that almost no 
so-called news having anything to do with politics is honest or reliable, no 
matter which side it comes from. Almost all of it is slanted (if not outright 
dishonest) to either fit their own view or manipulate their consumers into 
supporting a particular agenda. Unfortunately, there seems to be very little 
that can be done to fix it.


On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 4:17 PM Craig House  wrote:

  " a nugget of truth with a layer of bullshit on top"  Is exactly how I 
take every bit of news from every outlet on every station.   It is even more 
the case when the source is a politician or anyone with a political agenda.  
This includes most of the people on this list.   Very few on either side can 
really provide an objective argument on politics today.  I'd include myself in 
that group therefore I tend to just delete or not reply to these group messages 
because it only furthers the divide.   I honestly dont see any long term 
solution to the divide we have today.   Mainstream media isn't going to help.  
Congress isn't going to help and Trump isn't going to help.  Neither is 
anyone's opinion on this list 



--

  From: "Adam Moffett" 
  To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
  Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2021 4:09:22 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT: Fucking Bullshit


  Look at the evidence closely and in each case you'll find a nugget of 
truth with a layer of bullshit on top.  That so many people are so thoroughly 
fooled by it is the most distressing part.  Look closer.  Stop being a fool.

  The "coup" is when the loser thinks he can win by pretending hard enough.



  On 1/6/2021 5:05 PM, justsumname wrote:

an election that is not conducted according to law is not an election.  
 it's a coup. 
Worse... if the 'election' is not transparent, verifiable, and treats 
every voter the same, it's not an "election".
Worse ... if poll watchers are bullied and physically threatened... 
that is intolerable. 

hereistheevidence.com   --- in case you dare open your mind to truth

Patton was correct, and so was that McCarthy guy, who was probably a 
commie plant because he did a great job discrediting 'his' message.

All that is left is communism or war.   That was the plan all along and 
only 'crazy' people  -- and people who escaped communist societies to come warn 
us -- saw it or believed in it.

I'll sign off with this, because this is probably The End:

“In my study of communist societies, I came to the conclusion that the 
purpose of communist propaganda was not 

Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

[Steve Jones]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3at_Ev2kOoI

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 1:15 PM Carl Peterson 
wrote:

> Chuck,
>
> I know it is your list and your rules, but you can't say crap like "The
> DC crap today does not hold a candle in magnitude to the Portland and
> Seattle crap largely done by the other side.  Give and take."  and not
> expect it to start a political argument.  I think you are abundantly and
> dangerously wrong about that but I'm (mostly) holding my tongue.  We can't
> have a list where one sided inflammatory BS like that is allowed but
> countering it is not.   We either allow political discussions, which I'm
> fine with, or we make a no politics rule.  The latter seems to be the best
> option as there are too many brilliant minds who we will lose if we keep it
> up.
>
> On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 4:37 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> Sorry.  I don’t want to go back to the days of lent, but we have to
>> remain civil to do so.
>>
>> The DC crap today does not hold a candle in magnitude to the Portland and
>> Seattle crap largely done by the other side.  Give and take.
>>
>> Folks wanna blow off steam.  It will be history tomorrow.
>>
>> No need to pollute our list here with that energy, from either side.
>>
>> *From:* Steve Jones
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 6, 2021 3:32 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB
>>
>> youre no fun dad
>>
>> Lent?
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 4:31 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Kill thread.  We had been well behaved but nobody wants to see a bunch
>>> of F words in a subject line.  There have been complaints.
>>>
>>> *From:* Mathew Howard
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 6, 2021 3:23 PM
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: Fucking Bullshit
>>>
>>> That's the real problem. I've come to the conclusion that almost no
>>> so-called news having anything to do with politics is honest or reliable,
>>> no matter which side it comes from. Almost all of it is slanted (if not
>>> outright dishonest) to either fit their own view or manipulate their
>>> consumers into supporting a particular agenda. Unfortunately, there seems
>>> to be very little that can be done to fix it.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 4:17 PM Craig House 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 " a nugget of truth with a layer of bullshit on top"  Is exactly how I
 take every bit of news from every outlet on every station.   It is even
 more the case when the source is a politician or anyone with a political
 agenda.  This includes most of the people on this list.   Very few on
 either side can really provide an objective argument on politics today.
 I'd include myself in that group therefore I tend to just delete or not
 reply to these group messages because it only furthers the divide.   I
 honestly dont see any long term solution to the divide we have today.
 Mainstream media isn't going to help.  Congress isn't going to help and
 Trump isn't going to help.  Neither is anyone's opinion on this list


 --
 *From: *"Adam Moffett" 
 *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
 *Sent: *Wednesday, January 6, 2021 4:09:22 PM
 *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] OT: Fucking Bullshit


 Look at the evidence closely and in each case you'll find a nugget of
 truth with a layer of bullshit on top.  That so many people are so
 thoroughly fooled by it is the most distressing part.  Look closer.  Stop
 being a fool.

 The "coup" is when the loser thinks he can win by pretending hard
 enough.


 On 1/6/2021 5:05 PM, justsumname wrote:

 an election that is not conducted according to law is not an
 election.   it's a coup.
 Worse... if the 'election' is not transparent, verifiable, and treats
 every voter the same, it's not an "election".
 Worse ... if poll watchers are bullied and physically threatened...
 that is intolerable.

 hereistheevidence.com   --- in case you dare open your mind to truth

 Patton was correct, and so was that McCarthy guy, who was probably a
 commie plant because he did a great job discrediting 'his' message.

 All that is left is communism or war.   That was the plan all along and
 only 'crazy' people  -- and people who escaped communist societies to come
 warn us -- saw it or believed in it.

 I'll sign off with this, because this is probably The End:

 “In my study of communist societies, I came to the conclusion that the
 purpose of communist propaganda was not to persuade or convince, not to
 inform, but to humiliate; and therefore, the less it corresponded to
 reality the better. When people are forced to remain silent when they are
 being told the most obvious lies, or even worse when they are forced to
 repeat the lies themselves, they lose once and for all their sense of
 probity. To assent to 

Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

[Robert Andrews]

I was going to (hopefully) STFU on politics from here on out, but my 
last comment would be to agree with Carl.   Please help me to bite my 
tongue from here on out.


On 01/07/2021 11:14 AM, Carl Peterson wrote:

Chuck,

I know it is your list and your rules, but you can't say crap like "The 
DC crap today does not hold a candle in magnitude to the Portland and 
Seattle crap largely done by the other side.  Give and take." and not 
expect it to start a political argument.  I think you are abundantly and 
dangerously wrong about that but I'm (mostly) holding my tongue.  We 
can't have a list where one sided inflammatory BS like that is allowed 
but countering it is not.   We either allow political discussions, which 
I'm fine with, or we make a no politics rule.  The latter seems to be 
the best option as there are too many brilliant minds who we will lose 
if we keep it up.


On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 4:37 PM Chuck McCown via AF > wrote:


Sorry.  I don’t want to go back to the days of lent, but we have to
remain civil to do so.
The DC crap today does not hold a candle in magnitude to the
Portland and Seattle crap largely done by the other side.  Give and
take.
Folks wanna blow off steam.  It will be history tomorrow.
No need to pollute our list here with that energy, from either side.
*From:* Steve Jones
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 6, 2021 3:32 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB
youre no fun dad
Lent?
On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 4:31 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
wrote:

Kill thread.  We had been well behaved but nobody wants to see a
bunch of F words in a subject line.  There have been complaints.
*From:* Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 6, 2021 3:23 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: Fucking Bullshit
That's the real problem. I've come to the conclusion that almost
no so-called news having anything to do with politics is honest
or reliable, no matter which side it comes from. Almost all of
it is slanted (if not outright dishonest) to either fit their
own view or manipulate their consumers into supporting a
particular agenda. Unfortunately, there seems to be very little
that can be done to fix it.
On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 4:17 PM Craig House
 wrote:

" a nugget of truth with a layer of bullshit on top"  Is
exactly how I take every bit of news from every outlet on
every station.   It is even more the case when the source is
a politician or anyone with a political agenda.  This
includes most of the people on this list. Very few on either
side can really provide an objective argument on politics
today.  I'd include myself in that group therefore I tend to
just delete or not reply to these group messages because it
only furthers the divide.   I honestly dont see any long
term solution to the divide we have today.   Mainstream
media isn't going to help. Congress isn't going to help and
Trump isn't going to help.  Neither is anyone's opinion on
this list


*From: *"Adam Moffett" 
*To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
*Sent: *Wednesday, January 6, 2021 4:09:22 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] OT: Fucking Bullshit

Look at the evidence closely and in each case you'll find a
nugget of truth with a layer of bullshit on top.  That so
many people are so thoroughly fooled by it is the most
distressing part.  Look closer.  Stop being a fool.

The "coup" is when the loser thinks he can win by pretending
hard enough.

On 1/6/2021 5:05 PM, justsumname wrote:

an election that is not conducted according to law is
not an election.   it's a coup.
Worse... if the 'election' is not transparent,
verifiable, and treats every voter the same, it's not an
"election".
Worse ... if poll watchers are bullied and physically
threatened... that is intolerable.
hereistheevidence.com   
--- in case you dare open your mind to truth

Patton was correct, and so was that McCarthy guy, who
was probably a commie plant because he did a great job
discrediting 'his' message.
All that is left is communism or war.   That was the
plan all along and only 'crazy' people  -- and people
who escaped communist societies to come warn us -- saw
it or 

Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB

[Carl Peterson]

Chuck,

I know it is your list and your rules, but you can't say crap like "The DC
crap today does not hold a candle in magnitude to the Portland and Seattle
crap largely done by the other side.  Give and take."  and not expect it to
start a political argument.  I think you are abundantly and dangerously
wrong about that but I'm (mostly) holding my tongue.  We can't have a list
where one sided inflammatory BS like that is allowed but countering it is
not.   We either allow political discussions, which I'm fine with, or we
make a no politics rule.  The latter seems to be the best option as there
are too many brilliant minds who we will lose if we keep it up.

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 4:37 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> Sorry.  I don’t want to go back to the days of lent, but we have to remain
> civil to do so.
>
> The DC crap today does not hold a candle in magnitude to the Portland and
> Seattle crap largely done by the other side.  Give and take.
>
> Folks wanna blow off steam.  It will be history tomorrow.
>
> No need to pollute our list here with that energy, from either side.
>
> *From:* Steve Jones
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 6, 2021 3:32 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: FB
>
> youre no fun dad
>
> Lent?
>
> On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 4:31 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> Kill thread.  We had been well behaved but nobody wants to see a bunch of
>> F words in a subject line.  There have been complaints.
>>
>> *From:* Mathew Howard
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 6, 2021 3:23 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: Fucking Bullshit
>>
>> That's the real problem. I've come to the conclusion that almost no
>> so-called news having anything to do with politics is honest or reliable,
>> no matter which side it comes from. Almost all of it is slanted (if not
>> outright dishonest) to either fit their own view or manipulate their
>> consumers into supporting a particular agenda. Unfortunately, there seems
>> to be very little that can be done to fix it.
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 4:17 PM Craig House 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> " a nugget of truth with a layer of bullshit on top"  Is exactly how I
>>> take every bit of news from every outlet on every station.   It is even
>>> more the case when the source is a politician or anyone with a political
>>> agenda.  This includes most of the people on this list.   Very few on
>>> either side can really provide an objective argument on politics today.
>>> I'd include myself in that group therefore I tend to just delete or not
>>> reply to these group messages because it only furthers the divide.   I
>>> honestly dont see any long term solution to the divide we have today.
>>> Mainstream media isn't going to help.  Congress isn't going to help and
>>> Trump isn't going to help.  Neither is anyone's opinion on this list
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> *From: *"Adam Moffett" 
>>> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
>>> *Sent: *Wednesday, January 6, 2021 4:09:22 PM
>>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] OT: Fucking Bullshit
>>>
>>>
>>> Look at the evidence closely and in each case you'll find a nugget of
>>> truth with a layer of bullshit on top.  That so many people are so
>>> thoroughly fooled by it is the most distressing part.  Look closer.  Stop
>>> being a fool.
>>>
>>> The "coup" is when the loser thinks he can win by pretending hard enough.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1/6/2021 5:05 PM, justsumname wrote:
>>>
>>> an election that is not conducted according to law is not an election.
>>> it's a coup.
>>> Worse... if the 'election' is not transparent, verifiable, and treats
>>> every voter the same, it's not an "election".
>>> Worse ... if poll watchers are bullied and physically threatened... that
>>> is intolerable.
>>>
>>> hereistheevidence.com   --- in case you dare open your mind to truth
>>>
>>> Patton was correct, and so was that McCarthy guy, who was probably a
>>> commie plant because he did a great job discrediting 'his' message.
>>>
>>> All that is left is communism or war.   That was the plan all along and
>>> only 'crazy' people  -- and people who escaped communist societies to come
>>> warn us -- saw it or believed in it.
>>>
>>> I'll sign off with this, because this is probably The End:
>>>
>>> “In my study of communist societies, I came to the conclusion that the
>>> purpose of communist propaganda was not to persuade or convince, not to
>>> inform, but to humiliate; and therefore, the less it corresponded to
>>> reality the better. When people are forced to remain silent when they are
>>> being told the most obvious lies, or even worse when they are forced to
>>> repeat the lies themselves, they lose once and for all their sense of
>>> probity. To assent to obvious lies is...in some small way to become evil
>>> oneself. One's standing to resist anything is thus eroded, and even
>>> destroyed. A society of emasculated liars is easy to control. I think if
>>> you examine political 

Re: [AFMUG] Unsubscribe

[Chuck McCown via AF]

We would prefer that you watch your language and don’t throw bombs.  
Stick to Lent safe stuff and we will be OK.  

From: Jaime Solorza 
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 11:33 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Unsubscribe

I learned a lot from you fine feathered friends... 
Peace... adios
Please unsubscribe me if you feel you must.

Thanks,
Jaime Solorza

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, 10:34 AM Lewis Bergman  wrote:

  Unsubscribe
  -- 
  AF mailing list
  AF@af.afmug.com
  http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com




-- 
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AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Unsubscribe

[Jason Wilson]

Only applicable to some I guess.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, 10:36 Mike Hammett  wrote:

> I didn't even know that Lent went away. I thought we had perma-Lent.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Ryan Ray" 
> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> *Sent: *Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:24:39 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Unsubscribe
>
> There shouldn't be any need for time-out's. We're all adults here.
>
> To hell with politics chat though. A few of you start actually acting like
> kids when the topic is broached. As a Canadian I don't really want to see
> it anyway. Bring back lent. This has been a great community for over 10
> years. Politics are the achilles heel for this list.
>
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:42 AM Colin Stanners  wrote:
>
>> Respected and knowledgeable people too, which is even more worrying.
>>
>> I know a bartender who ended up saying "no politics or religion in my
>> bar, you can discuss those anywhere else, but find another topic here -
>> I've got enough of the stupid fights". May be time for that, or at least a
>> time-out for the biggest mouths.
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 11:35 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Not joking.  People are leaving...  Thanks guys...
>>>
>>> *From:* Lewis Bergman
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 10:28 AM
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Unsubscribe
>>>
>>> Unsubscribe
>>>
>>> --
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] 2+0 Co-Polar

[Mathew Howard]

But is A2C+ available on both the wtm4100 and 4200, or just the 4200?

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 12:45 PM Peter Kranz via AF  wrote:

> A2C+ is a new SKU.. it’s a hardware change.
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *TJ Trout
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 07, 2021 10:38 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] 2+0 Co-Polar
>
>
>
> Is there a new wtm version with better a2c performance? we have some
> 4100's that we need to deploy with a2c and those I believe have the a2c
> losses still?
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 10:34 AM Mathew Howard 
> wrote:
>
> That's interesting, I didn't realize Aviat didn't support 4+0 with A2C...
> that's good to know.
>
>
>
> You're correct that Bridgewave is limited to 1024QAM in that
> configuration. I expected getting adjacent channels in 11ghz to be a
> problem, but it turned out that it actually wasn't here, so it's definitely
> worth looking into (at least if you're in a rural area).
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 12:05 PM Peter Kranz via AF 
> wrote:
>
> The Aviat radios do not support 4+0 like this, the only support up to 3+0
> in a single radio. I.e. running A2C/A2C+ on a 11 or 18Ghz radio core for
> 2+0, and running 70/80Ghz on another core. I believe this is do to a
> limitation in their internally switching hardware only allowing up to 3
> channels to be aggregated.
>
> Bridgewave does support this, but their implementation is more restrictive
> in that the channels must be adjacent channels, and last I checked they are
> limited to 1024QAM. In my market I have had trouble getting the adjacent
> channels required to implement Bridgewave 4+0 links.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Ken Hohhof
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 05, 2021 6:54 PM
> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] 2+0 Co-Polar
>
>
>
> Do these radios also let you do 4+0 with A2C+XPIC in one radio, rather
> than 2 radios and a combiner?
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 5, 2021 7:14 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] 2+0 Co-Polar
>
>
>
> There's really not even a lot of good reasons to do it. If the Aviat
> radios are able to run full power now using A2C, you can accomplish pretty
> much the same that way (or using the equivalent feature with Bridgewave or
> SIAE).
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 6:26 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:
>
> Yep.
>
> One more thought – Part 101 is one of the best things we have, where we
> are on identical footing with the big guys.  We file the exact same
> paperwork, pay the same fees, get the same access, no sitting at the kids
> table.  I’m not going to risk losing that.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 5, 2021 5:36 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] 2+0 Co-Polar
>
>
>
> My coordinator told me no. Not a maybe no, but a flat no. Had to do
> primarily with the band edges. I'd love to do it, and the radios will do
> it. But the FCC gets involved and not only are you probably paying a
> massive fine, but you're losing substantial capacity you may be hinging
> your business on. The gain isnt worth the risk. I didnt push the issue to
> find out the specific rules prohibiting it, I represent a podunk wisp, the
> fcc is bigger than us. I'll lose.
>
> It's like the question of whether selling meth is illegal if you dont get
> caught.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 5, 2021, 12:10 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:
>
> Hey Tim,
>
>
>
> Does this rule have a reason? Or is it just a rule for rule's sake?
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 4:47 AM Tim Hardy  wrote:
>
> A note of caution: Some vendors have been pushing the notion that at 11
> GHz, one can coordinate and license an 80 MHz bandwidth pair along with a
> 40 MHz bandwidth pair separated by 60 MHz to in effect get a contiguous 120
> MHz of spectrum. This is okay as long as you are transmitting two distinct
> frequency pairs - one with 80 MHz, and the other with 40 MHz. In the US it
> is NOT okay to unlock the radio to use ETSI 112 MHz bandwidth and transmit
> a single pair. Vendors that are pushing this concept need to stop as it
> violates at least two and possibly more FCC Rules. The licensee would be
> taking the risk - not the vendor.
>
>
>
> On Jan 4, 2021, at 3:54 PM,  <
> joseph.schr...@siaemic.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> With the SIAE radio:
>
> - 2+0 XPIC - minimal loss using the built-in OMT branching unit on the
> order of 0.5 dB per end
>
> - 2+0 ACCP - 3.5 dB loss per end using the built-in Hybrid branching
> unit
>
> No TX power back-off required in either mode, nor do you need to back-off
> the TX power when using POE.
>
>
>
> The ALFOPlus2XG radio has independent modem & RF, so there is flexibility
> on how you could setup each radio. Each carrier can have its own channel
> bandwidth & modulation.
>
>
>
> The branching units are field changeable and allow the ODU to bolt
> directly to the back of the antenna.
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> 

Re: [AFMUG] 2+0 Co-Polar

[Peter Kranz via AF]

A2C+ is a new SKU.. it’s a hardware change.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of TJ Trout
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2021 10:38 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 2+0 Co-Polar

 

Is there a new wtm version with better a2c performance? we have some 4100's 
that we need to deploy with a2c and those I believe have the a2c losses still?

 

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 10:34 AM Mathew Howard mailto:mhoward...@gmail.com> > wrote:

That's interesting, I didn't realize Aviat didn't support 4+0 with A2C... 
that's good to know.

 

You're correct that Bridgewave is limited to 1024QAM in that configuration. I 
expected getting adjacent channels in 11ghz to be a problem, but it turned out 
that it actually wasn't here, so it's definitely worth looking into (at least 
if you're in a rural area).

 

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 12:05 PM Peter Kranz via AF mailto:af@af.afmug.com> > wrote:

The Aviat radios do not support 4+0 like this, the only support up to 3+0 in a 
single radio. I.e. running A2C/A2C+ on a 11 or 18Ghz radio core for 2+0, and 
running 70/80Ghz on another core. I believe this is do to a limitation in their 
internally switching hardware only allowing up to 3 channels to be aggregated. 

Bridgewave does support this, but their implementation is more restrictive in 
that the channels must be adjacent channels, and last I checked they are 
limited to 1024QAM. In my market I have had trouble getting the adjacent 
channels required to implement Bridgewave 4+0 links.

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2021 6:54 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 2+0 Co-Polar

 

Do these radios also let you do 4+0 with A2C+XPIC in one radio, rather than 2 
radios and a combiner?

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2021 7:14 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 2+0 Co-Polar

 

There's really not even a lot of good reasons to do it. If the Aviat radios are 
able to run full power now using A2C, you can accomplish pretty much the same 
that way (or using the equivalent feature with Bridgewave or SIAE).

 

On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 6:26 PM Ken Hohhof mailto:af...@kwisp.com> > wrote:

Yep.

One more thought – Part 101 is one of the best things we have, where we are on 
identical footing with the big guys.  We file the exact same paperwork, pay the 
same fees, get the same access, no sitting at the kids table.  I’m not going to 
risk losing that.

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Steve Jones
Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2021 5:36 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 2+0 Co-Polar

 

My coordinator told me no. Not a maybe no, but a flat no. Had to do primarily 
with the band edges. I'd love to do it, and the radios will do it. But the FCC 
gets involved and not only are you probably paying a massive fine, but you're 
losing substantial capacity you may be hinging your business on. The gain isnt 
worth the risk. I didnt push the issue to find out the specific rules 
prohibiting it, I represent a podunk wisp, the fcc is bigger than us. I'll 
lose. 

It's like the question of whether selling meth is illegal if you dont get 
caught. 

 

On Tue, Jan 5, 2021, 12:10 PM Ryan Ray mailto:ryan...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Hey Tim,

 

Does this rule have a reason? Or is it just a rule for rule's sake?

 

 

On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 4:47 AM Tim Hardy mailto:thardy...@gmail.com> > wrote:

A note of caution: Some vendors have been pushing the notion that at 11 GHz, 
one can coordinate and license an 80 MHz bandwidth pair along with a 40 MHz 
bandwidth pair separated by 60 MHz to in effect get a contiguous 120 MHz of 
spectrum. This is okay as long as you are transmitting two distinct frequency 
pairs - one with 80 MHz, and the other with 40 MHz. In the US it is NOT okay to 
unlock the radio to use ETSI 112 MHz bandwidth and transmit a single pair. 
Vendors that are pushing this concept need to stop as it violates at least two 
and possibly more FCC Rules. The licensee would be taking the risk - not the 
vendor.

 

On Jan 4, 2021, at 3:54 PM, mailto:joseph.schr...@siaemic.com> > mailto:joseph.schr...@siaemic.com> > wrote:

 

With the SIAE radio:

- 2+0 XPIC - minimal loss using the built-in OMT branching unit on the 
order of 0.5 dB per end

- 2+0 ACCP - 3.5 dB loss per end using the built-in Hybrid branching unit

No TX power back-off required in either mode, nor do you need to back-off the 
TX power when using POE.

 

The ALFOPlus2XG radio has independent modem & RF, so there is flexibility on 
how you could setup each radio. Each carrier can have its own channel bandwidth 
& modulation.

 

The branching units are field changeable and allow the ODU to bolt directly to 
the back of the antenna.

 

 

Thanks,

 



 

Joe 

Re: [AFMUG] 2+0 Co-Polar

[TJ Trout]

Is there a new wtm version with better a2c performance? we have some 4100's
that we need to deploy with a2c and those I believe have the a2c losses
still?

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 10:34 AM Mathew Howard  wrote:

> That's interesting, I didn't realize Aviat didn't support 4+0 with A2C...
> that's good to know.
>
> You're correct that Bridgewave is limited to 1024QAM in that
> configuration. I expected getting adjacent channels in 11ghz to be a
> problem, but it turned out that it actually wasn't here, so it's definitely
> worth looking into (at least if you're in a rural area).
>
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 12:05 PM Peter Kranz via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> The Aviat radios do not support 4+0 like this, the only support up to 3+0
>> in a single radio. I.e. running A2C/A2C+ on a 11 or 18Ghz radio core for
>> 2+0, and running 70/80Ghz on another core. I believe this is do to a
>> limitation in their internally switching hardware only allowing up to 3
>> channels to be aggregated.
>>
>> Bridgewave does support this, but their implementation is more
>> restrictive in that the channels must be adjacent channels, and last I
>> checked they are limited to 1024QAM. In my market I have had trouble
>> getting the adjacent channels required to implement Bridgewave 4+0 links.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Ken Hohhof
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 05, 2021 6:54 PM
>> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] 2+0 Co-Polar
>>
>>
>>
>> Do these radios also let you do 4+0 with A2C+XPIC in one radio, rather
>> than 2 radios and a combiner?
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 5, 2021 7:14 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] 2+0 Co-Polar
>>
>>
>>
>> There's really not even a lot of good reasons to do it. If the Aviat
>> radios are able to run full power now using A2C, you can accomplish pretty
>> much the same that way (or using the equivalent feature with Bridgewave or
>> SIAE).
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 6:26 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:
>>
>> Yep.
>>
>> One more thought – Part 101 is one of the best things we have, where we
>> are on identical footing with the big guys.  We file the exact same
>> paperwork, pay the same fees, get the same access, no sitting at the kids
>> table.  I’m not going to risk losing that.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 5, 2021 5:36 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] 2+0 Co-Polar
>>
>>
>>
>> My coordinator told me no. Not a maybe no, but a flat no. Had to do
>> primarily with the band edges. I'd love to do it, and the radios will do
>> it. But the FCC gets involved and not only are you probably paying a
>> massive fine, but you're losing substantial capacity you may be hinging
>> your business on. The gain isnt worth the risk. I didnt push the issue to
>> find out the specific rules prohibiting it, I represent a podunk wisp, the
>> fcc is bigger than us. I'll lose.
>>
>> It's like the question of whether selling meth is illegal if you dont get
>> caught.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 5, 2021, 12:10 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:
>>
>> Hey Tim,
>>
>>
>>
>> Does this rule have a reason? Or is it just a rule for rule's sake?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 4:47 AM Tim Hardy  wrote:
>>
>> A note of caution: Some vendors have been pushing the notion that at 11
>> GHz, one can coordinate and license an 80 MHz bandwidth pair along with a
>> 40 MHz bandwidth pair separated by 60 MHz to in effect get a contiguous 120
>> MHz of spectrum. This is okay as long as you are transmitting two distinct
>> frequency pairs - one with 80 MHz, and the other with 40 MHz. In the US it
>> is NOT okay to unlock the radio to use ETSI 112 MHz bandwidth and transmit
>> a single pair. Vendors that are pushing this concept need to stop as it
>> violates at least two and possibly more FCC Rules. The licensee would be
>> taking the risk - not the vendor.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 4, 2021, at 3:54 PM,  <
>> joseph.schr...@siaemic.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> With the SIAE radio:
>>
>> - 2+0 XPIC - minimal loss using the built-in OMT branching unit on
>> the order of 0.5 dB per end
>>
>> - 2+0 ACCP - 3.5 dB loss per end using the built-in Hybrid branching
>> unit
>>
>> No TX power back-off required in either mode, nor do you need to back-off
>> the TX power when using POE.
>>
>>
>>
>> The ALFOPlus2XG radio has independent modem & RF, so there is flexibility
>> on how you could setup each radio. Each carrier can have its own channel
>> bandwidth & modulation.
>>
>>
>>
>> The branching units are field changeable and allow the ODU to bolt
>> directly to the back of the antenna.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>> Joe Schraml
>>
>> VP Sales Operations & Marketing
>>
>> SIAE Microelettronica, Inc.
>>
>> +1 (408) 832-4884
>>
>> joseph.schr...@siaemic.com
>>
>> www.siaemic.com
>>
>>
>>
>> >>> Mathew Howard  1/4/2021 12:01 PM >>>
>>
>> Yeah, 

Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Unsubscribe

[Mike Hammett]

I didn't even know that Lent went away. I thought we had perma-Lent. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Ryan Ray"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:24:39 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Unsubscribe 


There shouldn't be any need for time-out's. We're all adults here. 

To hell with politics chat though. A few of you start actually acting like kids 
when the topic is broached. As a Canadian I don't really want to see it anyway. 
Bring back lent. This has been a great community for over 10 years. Politics 
are the achilles heel for this list. 


On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:42 AM Colin Stanners < cstann...@gmail.com > wrote: 




Respected and knowledgeable people too, which is even more worrying. 



I know a bartender who ended up saying "no politics or religion in my bar, you 
can discuss those anywhere else, but find another topic here - I've got enough 
of the stupid fights". May be time for that, or at least a time-out for the 
biggest mouths. 



On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 11:35 AM Chuck McCown via AF < af@af.afmug.com > wrote: 






Not joking. People are leaving... Thanks guys... 




From: Lewis Bergman 
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 10:28 AM 
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] Unsubscribe 


Unsubscribe 

-- 
AF mailing list 
AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 

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http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 


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Re: [AFMUG] 2+0 Co-Polar

[Mathew Howard]

That's interesting, I didn't realize Aviat didn't support 4+0 with A2C...
that's good to know.

You're correct that Bridgewave is limited to 1024QAM in that configuration.
I expected getting adjacent channels in 11ghz to be a problem, but it
turned out that it actually wasn't here, so it's definitely worth looking
into (at least if you're in a rural area).

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 12:05 PM Peter Kranz via AF  wrote:

> The Aviat radios do not support 4+0 like this, the only support up to 3+0
> in a single radio. I.e. running A2C/A2C+ on a 11 or 18Ghz radio core for
> 2+0, and running 70/80Ghz on another core. I believe this is do to a
> limitation in their internally switching hardware only allowing up to 3
> channels to be aggregated.
>
> Bridgewave does support this, but their implementation is more restrictive
> in that the channels must be adjacent channels, and last I checked they are
> limited to 1024QAM. In my market I have had trouble getting the adjacent
> channels required to implement Bridgewave 4+0 links.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Ken Hohhof
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 05, 2021 6:54 PM
> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] 2+0 Co-Polar
>
>
>
> Do these radios also let you do 4+0 with A2C+XPIC in one radio, rather
> than 2 radios and a combiner?
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 5, 2021 7:14 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] 2+0 Co-Polar
>
>
>
> There's really not even a lot of good reasons to do it. If the Aviat
> radios are able to run full power now using A2C, you can accomplish pretty
> much the same that way (or using the equivalent feature with Bridgewave or
> SIAE).
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 6:26 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:
>
> Yep.
>
> One more thought – Part 101 is one of the best things we have, where we
> are on identical footing with the big guys.  We file the exact same
> paperwork, pay the same fees, get the same access, no sitting at the kids
> table.  I’m not going to risk losing that.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 5, 2021 5:36 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] 2+0 Co-Polar
>
>
>
> My coordinator told me no. Not a maybe no, but a flat no. Had to do
> primarily with the band edges. I'd love to do it, and the radios will do
> it. But the FCC gets involved and not only are you probably paying a
> massive fine, but you're losing substantial capacity you may be hinging
> your business on. The gain isnt worth the risk. I didnt push the issue to
> find out the specific rules prohibiting it, I represent a podunk wisp, the
> fcc is bigger than us. I'll lose.
>
> It's like the question of whether selling meth is illegal if you dont get
> caught.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 5, 2021, 12:10 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:
>
> Hey Tim,
>
>
>
> Does this rule have a reason? Or is it just a rule for rule's sake?
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 4:47 AM Tim Hardy  wrote:
>
> A note of caution: Some vendors have been pushing the notion that at 11
> GHz, one can coordinate and license an 80 MHz bandwidth pair along with a
> 40 MHz bandwidth pair separated by 60 MHz to in effect get a contiguous 120
> MHz of spectrum. This is okay as long as you are transmitting two distinct
> frequency pairs - one with 80 MHz, and the other with 40 MHz. In the US it
> is NOT okay to unlock the radio to use ETSI 112 MHz bandwidth and transmit
> a single pair. Vendors that are pushing this concept need to stop as it
> violates at least two and possibly more FCC Rules. The licensee would be
> taking the risk - not the vendor.
>
>
>
> On Jan 4, 2021, at 3:54 PM,  <
> joseph.schr...@siaemic.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> With the SIAE radio:
>
> - 2+0 XPIC - minimal loss using the built-in OMT branching unit on the
> order of 0.5 dB per end
>
> - 2+0 ACCP - 3.5 dB loss per end using the built-in Hybrid branching
> unit
>
> No TX power back-off required in either mode, nor do you need to back-off
> the TX power when using POE.
>
>
>
> The ALFOPlus2XG radio has independent modem & RF, so there is flexibility
> on how you could setup each radio. Each carrier can have its own channel
> bandwidth & modulation.
>
>
>
> The branching units are field changeable and allow the ODU to bolt
> directly to the back of the antenna.
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
> Joe Schraml
>
> VP Sales Operations & Marketing
>
> SIAE Microelettronica, Inc.
>
> +1 (408) 832-4884
>
> joseph.schr...@siaemic.com
>
> www.siaemic.com
>
>
>
> >>> Mathew Howard  1/4/2021 12:01 PM >>>
>
> Yeah, you can do 2 x 80mhz channels with a single core on some radios, but
> there are some limitations. Depending on the radio, my understanding is
> that they have to either be adjacent, or very near each other (definitely
> within the same sub-band). It seems to me that some radios can even do two
> different sizes of channels (like 1 80mhz + 1 40mhz), but I could be
> remembering that 

Re: [AFMUG] Unsubscribe

[Jaime Solorza]

I learned a lot from you fine feathered friends...
Peace... adios
Please unsubscribe me if you feel you must.

Thanks,
Jaime Solorza

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, 10:34 AM Lewis Bergman  wrote:

> Unsubscribe
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Unsubscribe

[Ryan Ray]

There shouldn't be any need for time-out's. We're all adults here.

To hell with politics chat though. A few of you start actually acting like
kids when the topic is broached. As a Canadian I don't really want to see
it anyway. Bring back lent. This has been a great community for over 10
years. Politics are the achilles heel for this list.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:42 AM Colin Stanners  wrote:

> Respected and knowledgeable people too, which is even more worrying.
>
> I know a bartender who ended up saying "no politics or religion in my bar,
> you can discuss those anywhere else, but find another topic here - I've got
> enough of the stupid fights". May be time for that, or at least a time-out
> for the biggest mouths.
>
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 11:35 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> Not joking.  People are leaving...  Thanks guys...
>>
>> *From:* Lewis Bergman
>> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 10:28 AM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Unsubscribe
>>
>> Unsubscribe
>>
>> --
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] 2+0 Co-Polar

[Peter Kranz via AF]

The Aviat radios do not support 4+0 like this, the only support up to 3+0 in a 
single radio. I.e. running A2C/A2C+ on a 11 or 18Ghz radio core for 2+0, and 
running 70/80Ghz on another core. I believe this is do to a limitation in their 
internally switching hardware only allowing up to 3 channels to be aggregated. 

Bridgewave does support this, but their implementation is more restrictive in 
that the channels must be adjacent channels, and last I checked they are 
limited to 1024QAM. In my market I have had trouble getting the adjacent 
channels required to implement Bridgewave 4+0 links.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2021 6:54 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 2+0 Co-Polar

 

Do these radios also let you do 4+0 with A2C+XPIC in one radio, rather than 2 
radios and a combiner?

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2021 7:14 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 2+0 Co-Polar

 

There's really not even a lot of good reasons to do it. If the Aviat radios are 
able to run full power now using A2C, you can accomplish pretty much the same 
that way (or using the equivalent feature with Bridgewave or SIAE).

 

On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 6:26 PM Ken Hohhof mailto:af...@kwisp.com> > wrote:

Yep.

One more thought – Part 101 is one of the best things we have, where we are on 
identical footing with the big guys.  We file the exact same paperwork, pay the 
same fees, get the same access, no sitting at the kids table.  I’m not going to 
risk losing that.

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Steve Jones
Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2021 5:36 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 2+0 Co-Polar

 

My coordinator told me no. Not a maybe no, but a flat no. Had to do primarily 
with the band edges. I'd love to do it, and the radios will do it. But the FCC 
gets involved and not only are you probably paying a massive fine, but you're 
losing substantial capacity you may be hinging your business on. The gain isnt 
worth the risk. I didnt push the issue to find out the specific rules 
prohibiting it, I represent a podunk wisp, the fcc is bigger than us. I'll 
lose. 

It's like the question of whether selling meth is illegal if you dont get 
caught. 

 

On Tue, Jan 5, 2021, 12:10 PM Ryan Ray mailto:ryan...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Hey Tim,

 

Does this rule have a reason? Or is it just a rule for rule's sake?

 

 

On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 4:47 AM Tim Hardy mailto:thardy...@gmail.com> > wrote:

A note of caution: Some vendors have been pushing the notion that at 11 GHz, 
one can coordinate and license an 80 MHz bandwidth pair along with a 40 MHz 
bandwidth pair separated by 60 MHz to in effect get a contiguous 120 MHz of 
spectrum. This is okay as long as you are transmitting two distinct frequency 
pairs - one with 80 MHz, and the other with 40 MHz. In the US it is NOT okay to 
unlock the radio to use ETSI 112 MHz bandwidth and transmit a single pair. 
Vendors that are pushing this concept need to stop as it violates at least two 
and possibly more FCC Rules. The licensee would be taking the risk - not the 
vendor.

 

On Jan 4, 2021, at 3:54 PM, mailto:joseph.schr...@siaemic.com> > mailto:joseph.schr...@siaemic.com> > wrote:

 

With the SIAE radio:

- 2+0 XPIC - minimal loss using the built-in OMT branching unit on the 
order of 0.5 dB per end

- 2+0 ACCP - 3.5 dB loss per end using the built-in Hybrid branching unit

No TX power back-off required in either mode, nor do you need to back-off the 
TX power when using POE.

 

The ALFOPlus2XG radio has independent modem & RF, so there is flexibility on 
how you could setup each radio. Each carrier can have its own channel bandwidth 
& modulation.

 

The branching units are field changeable and allow the ODU to bolt directly to 
the back of the antenna.

 

 

Thanks,

 



 

Joe Schraml

VP Sales Operations & Marketing

SIAE Microelettronica, Inc.

+1 (408) 832-4884

  joseph.schr...@siaemic.com

  www.siaemic.com

 

>>> Mathew Howard mailto:mhoward...@gmail.com> > 
>>> 1/4/2021 12:01 PM >>>

Yeah, you can do 2 x 80mhz channels with a single core on some radios, but 
there are some limitations. Depending on the radio, my understanding is that 
they have to either be adjacent, or very near each other (definitely within the 
same sub-band). It seems to me that some radios can even do two different sizes 
of channels (like 1 80mhz + 1 40mhz), but I could be remembering that wrong. If 
I understand it right, the Aviat radios have a significant tx power hit when 
you activate that feature, which probably makes it unusable in a lot of cases. 
We're doing that on a Bridgewave 11ghz link (using 4x 80mhz on a dual core 
radio), and there's it works fine, with only a 

Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Unsubscribe

[Colin Stanners]

Respected and knowledgeable people too, which is even more worrying.

I know a bartender who ended up saying "no politics or religion in my bar,
you can discuss those anywhere else, but find another topic here - I've got
enough of the stupid fights". May be time for that, or at least a time-out
for the biggest mouths.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 11:35 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> Not joking.  People are leaving...  Thanks guys...
>
> *From:* Lewis Bergman
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 10:28 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Unsubscribe
>
> Unsubscribe
>
> --
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> AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Unsubscribe

[Chuck McCown via AF]

There will be some changes made.  If you have suggestions hit me off list.  

From: Jason Wilson 
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 10:37 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: Chuck McCown 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Unsubscribe

For a technical group there has been way too much politics. I'm about to pull 
away also. If I want politics I'll go to Facebook.  


On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, 09:35 Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

  Not joking.  People are leaving...  Thanks guys...

  From: Lewis Bergman 
  Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 10:28 AM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: [AFMUG] Unsubscribe

  Unsubscribe


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Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Unsubscribe

[Josh Baird]

I just ignore the political stuff.  But, yeah, let's calm down with all of
the political bullshit.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 12:38 PM Jason Wilson 
wrote:

> For a technical group there has been way too much politics. I'm about to
> pull away also. If I want politics I'll go to Facebook.
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, 09:35 Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:
>
>> Not joking.  People are leaving...  Thanks guys...
>>
>> *From:* Lewis Bergman
>> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 10:28 AM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Unsubscribe
>>
>> Unsubscribe
>>
>> --
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Re: [AFMUG] Fw: Unsubscribe

[Jason Wilson]

For a technical group there has been way too much politics. I'm about to
pull away also. If I want politics I'll go to Facebook.


On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, 09:35 Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> Not joking.  People are leaving...  Thanks guys...
>
> *From:* Lewis Bergman
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 10:28 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Unsubscribe
>
> Unsubscribe
>
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[AFMUG] Fw: Unsubscribe

[Chuck McCown via AF]

Not joking.  People are leaving...  Thanks guys...

From: Lewis Bergman 
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 10:28 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] Unsubscribe

Unsubscribe



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[AFMUG] Unsubscribe

[Lewis Bergman]

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Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load

[Chuck McCown via AF]

Also 1 foot of #10 is a nice .001 ohm shunt resistor if you want to do some 
current monitoring.  

From: Chuck McCown via AF 
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 10:21 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Cc: Chuck McCown 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load

In a pinch, #10 wire has 1 ohm per 1000’  14 gauge has 2.34 ohms.  
I have put spools of wire in a bucket of water to make a load for 48 V chargers 
before.  

From: James Howard 
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 10:14 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load

https://www.harborfreight.com/search?q=heat%20gun

 

$15 (They don’t have the $10 model anymore that I bought apparently).   Can use 
it to test your UPS and also remove all those political bumper stickers from 
your car too.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 11:03 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load

 

Worked on your shirts but not your jeans?


 

Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

 

 

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 11:50 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

  I learned once that you cannot dry laundry in a microwave.  

   

  From: Adam Moffett 

  Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 9:35 AM

  To: af@af.afmug.com 

  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load

   

  After a good trudge through the snow to get to the radio shack it can also 
dry off your pants really well.

  Safer if you take pants off.  Preferably you're on a solo mission if you're 
doing that.

   

  On 1/7/2021 11:09 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Yeah, for heat shrink.  Especially the larger stuff.  The smaller stuff I 
rub with the soldering iron.  

 

From: Adam Moffett 

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 8:58 AM

To: af@af.afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load

 

I use my heat gun for heat shrink tubing or as a makeshift space heater.  
1500W will make a radio shack nice and warm.

 

On 1/7/2021 10:55 AM, Josh Luthman wrote:

  Do I look like I cook or do my hair?!

  I am embarrassed to admit I don't own a heat gun, though if I did it'd be 
an M18 Milwaukee...


   

  Josh Luthman
  24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
  Direct: 937-552-2343
  1100 Wayne St
  Suite 1337
  Troy, OH 45373

   

   

  On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 10:19 AM Chuck McCown via AF  
wrote:

I have used a good warming tray.  They are pretty light.  Small 
electric skillet.  Heat gun. Blow drier.

Sent from my iPhone





  On Jan 7, 2021, at 8:05 AM, Colin Stanners  
wrote:

   

  Options I've used are

  1) 3-4x "round ceiling" type lighbulb holders wirth 100W bulbs 
mounted on a piece of wood, using PC power cords with the ends cut off to make 
them plug-in. Inexpensive and load is customizable by choosing how many to plug 
in. Just need to be careful of storage as the bulbs are delicate.

  2) heater with a low-heat mode that takes about 300-400W.

   

   

  On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 8:58 AM Josh Luthman 
 wrote:

My UPS needs to be at 30% load to get a runtime load test.  I'm at 
11% (of 750va) with the BH and AP up there. 

 

If memory serves, back in 2015 I used a couple CRT monitors.  Those 
are long gone.  The only idea I have is a space heater, but that's 850-900 
watts and will probably be too much.

Short of carrying up 20 Ubiquiti AP/POE and some surge strips, 
anyone have any clever ideas?  I have to carry this up 5 flights of stairs so 
please be gentle :)


 

Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

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  To: ja...@litewire.net
 
 

Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load

[Chuck McCown via AF]

In a pinch, #10 wire has 1 ohm per 1000’  14 gauge has 2.34 ohms.  
I have put spools of wire in a bucket of water to make a load for 48 V chargers 
before.  

From: James Howard 
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 10:14 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load

https://www.harborfreight.com/search?q=heat%20gun

 

$15 (They don’t have the $10 model anymore that I bought apparently).   Can use 
it to test your UPS and also remove all those political bumper stickers from 
your car too.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 11:03 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load

 

Worked on your shirts but not your jeans?


 

Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

 

 

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 11:50 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

  I learned once that you cannot dry laundry in a microwave.  

   

  From: Adam Moffett 

  Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 9:35 AM

  To: af@af.afmug.com 

  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load

   

  After a good trudge through the snow to get to the radio shack it can also 
dry off your pants really well.

  Safer if you take pants off.  Preferably you're on a solo mission if you're 
doing that.

   

  On 1/7/2021 11:09 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Yeah, for heat shrink.  Especially the larger stuff.  The smaller stuff I 
rub with the soldering iron.  

 

From: Adam Moffett 

Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 8:58 AM

To: af@af.afmug.com 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load

 

I use my heat gun for heat shrink tubing or as a makeshift space heater.  
1500W will make a radio shack nice and warm.

 

On 1/7/2021 10:55 AM, Josh Luthman wrote:

  Do I look like I cook or do my hair?!

  I am embarrassed to admit I don't own a heat gun, though if I did it'd be 
an M18 Milwaukee...


   

  Josh Luthman
  24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
  Direct: 937-552-2343
  1100 Wayne St
  Suite 1337
  Troy, OH 45373

   

   

  On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 10:19 AM Chuck McCown via AF  
wrote:

I have used a good warming tray.  They are pretty light.  Small 
electric skillet.  Heat gun. Blow drier.

Sent from my iPhone





  On Jan 7, 2021, at 8:05 AM, Colin Stanners  
wrote:

   

  Options I've used are

  1) 3-4x "round ceiling" type lighbulb holders wirth 100W bulbs 
mounted on a piece of wood, using PC power cords with the ends cut off to make 
them plug-in. Inexpensive and load is customizable by choosing how many to plug 
in. Just need to be careful of storage as the bulbs are delicate.

  2) heater with a low-heat mode that takes about 300-400W.

   

   

  On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 8:58 AM Josh Luthman 
 wrote:

My UPS needs to be at 30% load to get a runtime load test.  I'm at 
11% (of 750va) with the BH and AP up there. 

 

If memory serves, back in 2015 I used a couple CRT monitors.  Those 
are long gone.  The only idea I have is a space heater, but that's 850-900 
watts and will probably be too much.

Short of carrying up 20 Ubiquiti AP/POE and some surge strips, 
anyone have any clever ideas?  I have to carry this up 5 flights of stairs so 
please be gentle :)


 

Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

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You received this message because the domain afmug.com is on your 
allow list.
   
 

 

Re: [AFMUG] OT:

[Chuck McCown via AF]

Jaime, please kill the thread.  Totally.  
We are having people unsubscribe because of this political posting crap 
yesterday.  

From: Jaime Solorza 
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 10:09 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT:

I emailed him this 

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021, 9:02 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

  Please, no F words.  


  Sent from my iPhone


On Jan 6, 2021, at 8:25 PM, Jaime Solorza  wrote:


 
I agree Bill

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021, 4:56 PM Bill Prince  wrote:

  I call it sedition. 

  The vast (vast) majority of the mob was from people outside of town. The 
pictures I saw had no people of color as part of the chaos. It was simply a mob 
breaking into the capitol building and taking things. If there had been even a 
dozen people of color (or antifa of BLM) the consequences would have been 
drastically different.

  I don't think it's racist for a white cop to shoot a white woman who is 
part of a mob, but I don't know who was shot (and killed) or who shot her.

  I should also point out that concrete and marble do not burn.

  Numerous people & groups are now talking about the 25th amendment. If it 
is invoked, OCP would be not be able to return to office before it could be 
brought before the house or senate.

  --

  bp

  part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com



  On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 3:19 PM Jaime Solorza  
wrote:

Condolences to family of last who died today... 
George Bush called it an Insurrection ...


On Wed, Jan 6, 2021, 2:30 PM Steve Jones  
wrote:

  go drink some tecate, youre losing your mind

  On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 3:26 PM Jaime Solorza 
 wrote:

Did you just hear his tweeter video bullshit? Fuck Trump... Kruchev 
predicted it... Trump enabled it. 

Go ahead and get off this list
Fuck Trump and his Trumpicans...
This is an Insurrection..Rudy called for trial by combat, Trump 
said it was going to be wild ...
So fuck them to hell.

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021, 2:11 PM Steve Jones 
 wrote:

  IKR, slides biden is demanding potus go on national TV to quell 
it, unlike during the biden obama administration when he didnt demand the same. 
god this is funny. sad they havent shot more of these mopes today and 
historically

  On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 2:50 PM Jaime Solorza 
 wrote:

WTF...third world country tactics... 
Insurrection...
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Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load

[James Howard]

https://www.harborfreight.com/search?q=heat%20gun

$15 (They don’t have the $10 model anymore that I bought apparently).   Can use 
it to test your UPS and also remove all those political bumper stickers from 
your car too.

From: AF  On Behalf Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 11:03 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load

Worked on your shirts but not your jeans?

Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 11:50 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> wrote:
I learned once that you cannot dry laundry in a microwave.

From: Adam Moffett
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 9:35 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load


After a good trudge through the snow to get to the radio shack it can also dry 
off your pants really well.

Safer if you take pants off.  Preferably you're on a solo mission if you're 
doing that.


On 1/7/2021 11:09 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
Yeah, for heat shrink.  Especially the larger stuff.  The smaller stuff I rub 
with the soldering iron.

From: Adam Moffett
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 8:58 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load


I use my heat gun for heat shrink tubing or as a makeshift space heater.  1500W 
will make a radio shack nice and warm.


On 1/7/2021 10:55 AM, Josh Luthman wrote:
Do I look like I cook or do my hair?!

I am embarrassed to admit I don't own a heat gun, though if I did it'd be an 
M18 Milwaukee...

Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 10:19 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> wrote:
I have used a good warming tray.  They are pretty light.  Small electric 
skillet.  Heat gun. Blow drier.
Sent from my iPhone


On Jan 7, 2021, at 8:05 AM, Colin Stanners 
mailto:cstann...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Options I've used are
1) 3-4x "round ceiling" type lighbulb holders wirth 100W bulbs mounted on a 
piece of wood, using PC power cords with the ends cut off to make them plug-in. 
Inexpensive and load is customizable by choosing how many to plug in. Just need 
to be careful of storage as the bulbs are delicate.
2) heater with a low-heat mode that takes about 300-400W.


On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 8:58 AM Josh Luthman 
mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote:
My UPS needs to be at 30% load to get a runtime load test.  I'm at 11% (of 
750va) with the BH and AP up there.

If memory serves, back in 2015 I used a couple CRT monitors.  Those are long 
gone.  The only idea I have is a space heater, but that's 850-900 watts and 
will probably be too much.

Short of carrying up 20 Ubiquiti AP/POE and some surge strips, anyone have any 
clever ideas?  I have to carry this up 5 flights of stairs so please be gentle 
:)

Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373
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From: af-boun...@af.afmug.com





You received this message because the domain afmug.com is on your allow list.



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Re: [AFMUG] OT:

[Jaime Solorza]

I emailed him this

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021, 9:02 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> Please, no F words.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 6, 2021, at 8:25 PM, Jaime Solorza 
> wrote:
>
> 
> I agree Bill
>
> On Wed, Jan 6, 2021, 4:56 PM Bill Prince  wrote:
>
>> I call it sedition.
>>
>> The vast (vast) majority of the mob was from people outside of town. The
>> pictures I saw had no people of color as part of the chaos. It was simply a
>> mob breaking into the capitol building and taking things. If there had been
>> even a dozen people of color (or antifa of BLM) the consequences would have
>> been drastically different.
>>
>> I don't think it's racist for a white cop to shoot a white woman who is
>> part of a mob, but I don't know who was shot (and killed) or who shot her.
>>
>> I should also point out that concrete and marble do not burn.
>>
>> Numerous people & groups are now talking about the 25th amendment. If it
>> is invoked, OCP would be not be able to return to office before it could be
>> brought before the house or senate.
>>
>> --
>> bp
>> part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 3:19 PM Jaime Solorza 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Condolences to family of last who died today...
>>> George Bush called it an Insurrection ...
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2021, 2:30 PM Steve Jones 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 go drink some tecate, youre losing your mind

 On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 3:26 PM Jaime Solorza 
 wrote:

> Did you just hear his tweeter video bullshit? Fuck Trump... Kruchev
> predicted it... Trump enabled it.
>
> Go ahead and get off this list
> Fuck Trump and his Trumpicans...
> This is an Insurrection..Rudy called for trial by combat, Trump said
> it was going to be wild ...
> So fuck them to hell.
>
> On Wed, Jan 6, 2021, 2:11 PM Steve Jones 
> wrote:
>
>> IKR, slides biden is demanding potus go on national TV to quell it,
>> unlike during the biden obama administration when he didnt demand the 
>> same.
>> god this is funny. sad they havent shot more of these mopes today and
>> historically
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 2:50 PM Jaime Solorza <
>> losguyswirel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> WTF...third world country tactics...
>>> Insurrection...
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
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 AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load

[Josh Luthman]

Worked on your shirts but not your jeans?

Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 11:50 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> I learned once that you cannot dry laundry in a microwave.
>
> *From:* Adam Moffett
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 9:35 AM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load
>
>
> After a good trudge through the snow to get to the radio shack it can also
> dry off your pants really well.
>
> Safer if you take pants off.  Preferably you're on a solo mission if
> you're doing that.
>
>
> On 1/7/2021 11:09 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>
> Yeah, for heat shrink.  Especially the larger stuff.  The smaller stuff I
> rub with the soldering iron.
>
> *From:* Adam Moffett
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 8:58 AM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load
>
>
> I use my heat gun for heat shrink tubing or as a makeshift space heater.
> 1500W will make a radio shack nice and warm.
>
>
> On 1/7/2021 10:55 AM, Josh Luthman wrote:
>
> Do I look like I cook or do my hair?!
>
> I am embarrassed to admit I don't own a heat gun, though if I did it'd be
> an M18 Milwaukee...
>
> Josh Luthman
> 24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 10:19 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> I have used a good warming tray.  They are pretty light.  Small electric
>> skillet.  Heat gun. Blow drier.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jan 7, 2021, at 8:05 AM, Colin Stanners  wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Options I've used are
>> 1) 3-4x "round ceiling" type lighbulb holders wirth 100W bulbs mounted on
>> a piece of wood, using PC power cords with the ends cut off to make them
>> plug-in. Inexpensive and load is customizable by choosing how many to plug
>> in. Just need to be careful of storage as the bulbs are delicate.
>> 2) heater with a low-heat mode that takes about 300-400W.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 8:58 AM Josh Luthman 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> My UPS needs to be at 30% load to get a runtime load test.  I'm at 11%
>>> (of 750va) with the BH and AP up there.
>>>
>>> If memory serves, back in 2015 I used a couple CRT monitors.  Those are
>>> long gone.  The only idea I have is a space heater, but that's 850-900
>>> watts and will probably be too much.
>>>
>>> Short of carrying up 20 Ubiquiti AP/POE and some surge strips, anyone
>>> have any clever ideas?  I have to carry this up 5 flights of stairs so
>>> please be gentle :)
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> 24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>> --
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>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
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>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load

[Steve Jones]

you can colorfast set tiedye though

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 10:50 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> I learned once that you cannot dry laundry in a microwave.
>
> *From:* Adam Moffett
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 9:35 AM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load
>
>
> After a good trudge through the snow to get to the radio shack it can also
> dry off your pants really well.
>
> Safer if you take pants off.  Preferably you're on a solo mission if
> you're doing that.
>
>
> On 1/7/2021 11:09 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>
> Yeah, for heat shrink.  Especially the larger stuff.  The smaller stuff I
> rub with the soldering iron.
>
> *From:* Adam Moffett
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 8:58 AM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load
>
>
> I use my heat gun for heat shrink tubing or as a makeshift space heater.
> 1500W will make a radio shack nice and warm.
>
>
> On 1/7/2021 10:55 AM, Josh Luthman wrote:
>
> Do I look like I cook or do my hair?!
>
> I am embarrassed to admit I don't own a heat gun, though if I did it'd be
> an M18 Milwaukee...
>
> Josh Luthman
> 24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 10:19 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> I have used a good warming tray.  They are pretty light.  Small electric
>> skillet.  Heat gun. Blow drier.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jan 7, 2021, at 8:05 AM, Colin Stanners  wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Options I've used are
>> 1) 3-4x "round ceiling" type lighbulb holders wirth 100W bulbs mounted on
>> a piece of wood, using PC power cords with the ends cut off to make them
>> plug-in. Inexpensive and load is customizable by choosing how many to plug
>> in. Just need to be careful of storage as the bulbs are delicate.
>> 2) heater with a low-heat mode that takes about 300-400W.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 8:58 AM Josh Luthman 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> My UPS needs to be at 30% load to get a runtime load test.  I'm at 11%
>>> (of 750va) with the BH and AP up there.
>>>
>>> If memory serves, back in 2015 I used a couple CRT monitors.  Those are
>>> long gone.  The only idea I have is a space heater, but that's 850-900
>>> watts and will probably be too much.
>>>
>>> Short of carrying up 20 Ubiquiti AP/POE and some surge strips, anyone
>>> have any clever ideas?  I have to carry this up 5 flights of stairs so
>>> please be gentle :)
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> 24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>> --
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>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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>
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Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load

[Chuck McCown via AF]

I learned once that you cannot dry laundry in a microwave.  

From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 9:35 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load

After a good trudge through the snow to get to the radio shack it can also dry 
off your pants really well.

Safer if you take pants off.  Preferably you're on a solo mission if you're 
doing that.



On 1/7/2021 11:09 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

  Yeah, for heat shrink.  Especially the larger stuff.  The smaller stuff I rub 
with the soldering iron.  

  From: Adam Moffett 
  Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 8:58 AM
  To: af@af.afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load

  I use my heat gun for heat shrink tubing or as a makeshift space heater.  
1500W will make a radio shack nice and warm.



  On 1/7/2021 10:55 AM, Josh Luthman wrote:

Do I look like I cook or do my hair?!

I am embarrassed to admit I don't own a heat gun, though if I did it'd be 
an M18 Milwaukee...


Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 10:19 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

  I have used a good warming tray.  They are pretty light.  Small electric 
skillet.  Heat gun. Blow drier.


  Sent from my iPhone


On Jan 7, 2021, at 8:05 AM, Colin Stanners  wrote:


 
Options I've used are
1) 3-4x "round ceiling" type lighbulb holders wirth 100W bulbs mounted 
on a piece of wood, using PC power cords with the ends cut off to make them 
plug-in. Inexpensive and load is customizable by choosing how many to plug in. 
Just need to be careful of storage as the bulbs are delicate.

2) heater with a low-heat mode that takes about 300-400W.


On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 8:58 AM Josh Luthman 
 wrote:

  My UPS needs to be at 30% load to get a runtime load test.  I'm at 
11% (of 750va) with the BH and AP up there. 

  If memory serves, back in 2015 I used a couple CRT monitors.  Those 
are long gone.  The only idea I have is a space heater, but that's 850-900 
watts and will probably be too much.

  Short of carrying up 20 Ubiquiti AP/POE and some surge strips, anyone 
have any clever ideas?  I have to carry this up 5 flights of stairs so please 
be gentle :)


  Josh Luthman
  24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
  Direct: 937-552-2343
  1100 Wayne St
  Suite 1337
  Troy, OH 45373
  -- 
  AF mailing list
  AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load

[Adam Moffett]

After a good trudge through the snow to get to the radio shack it can 
also dry off your pants really well.


Safer if you take pants off.  Preferably you're on a solo mission if 
you're doing that.



On 1/7/2021 11:09 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
Yeah, for heat shrink.  Especially the larger stuff.  The smaller 
stuff I rub with the soldering iron.

*From:* Adam Moffett
*Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 8:58 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load

I use my heat gun for heat shrink tubing or as a makeshift space 
heater.  1500W will make a radio shack nice and warm.


On 1/7/2021 10:55 AM, Josh Luthman wrote:

Do I look like I cook or do my hair?!

I am embarrassed to admit I don't own a heat gun, though if I did 
it'd be an M18 Milwaukee...

Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373
On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 10:19 AM Chuck McCown via AF  
wrote:


I have used a good warming tray.  They are pretty light.  Small
electric skillet.  Heat gun. Blow drier.

Sent from my iPhone


On Jan 7, 2021, at 8:05 AM, Colin Stanners 
wrote:


Options I've used are
1) 3-4x "round ceiling" type lighbulb holders wirth 100W bulbs
mounted on a piece of wood, using PC power cords with the ends
cut off to make them plug-in. Inexpensive and load is
customizable by choosing how many to plug in. Just need to be
careful of storage as the bulbs are delicate.
2) heater with a low-heat mode that takes about 300-400W.
On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 8:58 AM Josh Luthman
 wrote:

My UPS needs to be at 30% load to get a runtime load test. 
I'm at 11% (of 750va) with the BH and AP up there.
If memory serves, back in 2015 I used a couple CRT
monitors.  Those are long gone.  The only idea I have is a
space heater, but that's 850-900 watts and will probably be
too much.

Short of carrying up 20 Ubiquiti AP/POE and some surge
strips, anyone have any clever ideas?  I have to carry this
up 5 flights of stairs so please be gentle :)
Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373
-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


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Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load

[Chuck McCown via AF]

Yeah, for heat shrink.  Especially the larger stuff.  The smaller stuff I rub 
with the soldering iron.  

From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 8:58 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load

I use my heat gun for heat shrink tubing or as a makeshift space heater.  1500W 
will make a radio shack nice and warm.



On 1/7/2021 10:55 AM, Josh Luthman wrote:

  Do I look like I cook or do my hair?!

  I am embarrassed to admit I don't own a heat gun, though if I did it'd be an 
M18 Milwaukee...


  Josh Luthman
  24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
  Direct: 937-552-2343
  1100 Wayne St
  Suite 1337
  Troy, OH 45373


  On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 10:19 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

I have used a good warming tray.  They are pretty light.  Small electric 
skillet.  Heat gun. Blow drier.


Sent from my iPhone


  On Jan 7, 2021, at 8:05 AM, Colin Stanners  wrote:


   
  Options I've used are
  1) 3-4x "round ceiling" type lighbulb holders wirth 100W bulbs mounted on 
a piece of wood, using PC power cords with the ends cut off to make them 
plug-in. Inexpensive and load is customizable by choosing how many to plug in. 
Just need to be careful of storage as the bulbs are delicate.

  2) heater with a low-heat mode that takes about 300-400W.


  On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 8:58 AM Josh Luthman  
wrote:

My UPS needs to be at 30% load to get a runtime load test.  I'm at 11% 
(of 750va) with the BH and AP up there. 

If memory serves, back in 2015 I used a couple CRT monitors.  Those are 
long gone.  The only idea I have is a space heater, but that's 850-900 watts 
and will probably be too much.

Short of carrying up 20 Ubiquiti AP/POE and some surge strips, anyone 
have any clever ideas?  I have to carry this up 5 flights of stairs so please 
be gentle :)


Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373
-- 
AF mailing list
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Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load

[Adam Moffett]

I use my heat gun for heat shrink tubing or as a makeshift space 
heater.  1500W will make a radio shack nice and warm.



On 1/7/2021 10:55 AM, Josh Luthman wrote:

Do I look like I cook or do my hair?!

I am embarrassed to admit I don't own a heat gun, though if I did it'd 
be an M18 Milwaukee...


Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 10:19 AM Chuck McCown via AF > wrote:


I have used a good warming tray.  They are pretty light.  Small
electric skillet.  Heat gun. Blow drier.

Sent from my iPhone


On Jan 7, 2021, at 8:05 AM, Colin Stanners mailto:cstann...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Options I've used are
1) 3-4x "round ceiling" type lighbulb holders wirth 100W bulbs
mounted on a piece of wood, using PC power cords with the ends
cut off to make them plug-in. Inexpensive and load is
customizable by choosing how many to plug in. Just need to be
careful of storage as the bulbs are delicate.
2) heater with a low-heat mode that takes about 300-400W.


On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 8:58 AM Josh Luthman
mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote:

My UPS needs to be at 30% load to get a runtime load test. 
I'm at 11% (of 750va) with the BH and AP up there.

If memory serves, back in 2015 I used a couple CRT monitors. 
Those are long gone. The only idea I have is a space heater,
but that's 850-900 watts and will probably be too much.

Short of carrying up 20 Ubiquiti AP/POE and some surge
strips, anyone have any clever ideas?  I have to carry this
up 5 flights of stairs so please be gentle :)

Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373
-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


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Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load

[Josh Luthman]

Do I look like I cook or do my hair?!

I am embarrassed to admit I don't own a heat gun, though if I did it'd be
an M18 Milwaukee...

Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 10:19 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> I have used a good warming tray.  They are pretty light.  Small electric
> skillet.  Heat gun. Blow drier.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 7, 2021, at 8:05 AM, Colin Stanners  wrote:
>
> 
> Options I've used are
> 1) 3-4x "round ceiling" type lighbulb holders wirth 100W bulbs mounted on
> a piece of wood, using PC power cords with the ends cut off to make them
> plug-in. Inexpensive and load is customizable by choosing how many to plug
> in. Just need to be careful of storage as the bulbs are delicate.
> 2) heater with a low-heat mode that takes about 300-400W.
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 8:58 AM Josh Luthman 
> wrote:
>
>> My UPS needs to be at 30% load to get a runtime load test.  I'm at 11%
>> (of 750va) with the BH and AP up there.
>>
>> If memory serves, back in 2015 I used a couple CRT monitors.  Those are
>> long gone.  The only idea I have is a space heater, but that's 850-900
>> watts and will probably be too much.
>>
>> Short of carrying up 20 Ubiquiti AP/POE and some surge strips, anyone
>> have any clever ideas?  I have to carry this up 5 flights of stairs so
>> please be gentle :)
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> 24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load

[Josh Luthman]

Oooh I like the light bulb idea, that'll be nice and easy!  Three 100 watt
bulbs would be perfect!

Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 10:06 AM Colin Stanners  wrote:

> Options I've used are
> 1) 3-4x "round ceiling" type lighbulb holders wirth 100W bulbs mounted on
> a piece of wood, using PC power cords with the ends cut off to make them
> plug-in. Inexpensive and load is customizable by choosing how many to plug
> in. Just need to be careful of storage as the bulbs are delicate.
> 2) heater with a low-heat mode that takes about 300-400W.
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 8:58 AM Josh Luthman 
> wrote:
>
>> My UPS needs to be at 30% load to get a runtime load test.  I'm at 11%
>> (of 750va) with the BH and AP up there.
>>
>> If memory serves, back in 2015 I used a couple CRT monitors.  Those are
>> long gone.  The only idea I have is a space heater, but that's 850-900
>> watts and will probably be too much.
>>
>> Short of carrying up 20 Ubiquiti AP/POE and some surge strips, anyone
>> have any clever ideas?  I have to carry this up 5 flights of stairs so
>> please be gentle :)
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> 24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
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>> AF mailing list
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>>
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Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load

[Adam Moffett]

I've used a heat gun with a "low" setting.

Hair dryer might be about the same.

On 1/7/2021 9:57 AM, Josh Luthman wrote:
My UPS needs to be at 30% load to get a runtime load test.  I'm at 11% 
(of 750va) with the BH and AP up there.


If memory serves, back in 2015 I used a couple CRT monitors.  Those 
are long gone.  The only idea I have is a space heater, but that's 
850-900 watts and will probably be too much.


Short of carrying up 20 Ubiquiti AP/POE and some surge strips, anyone 
have any clever ideas?  I have to carry this up 5 flights of stairs so 
please be gentle :)


Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

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Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load

[Chuck McCown via AF]

I have used a good warming tray.  They are pretty light.  Small electric 
skillet.  Heat gun. Blow drier.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 7, 2021, at 8:05 AM, Colin Stanners  wrote:
> 
> 
> Options I've used are
> 1) 3-4x "round ceiling" type lighbulb holders wirth 100W bulbs mounted on a 
> piece of wood, using PC power cords with the ends cut off to make them 
> plug-in. Inexpensive and load is customizable by choosing how many to plug 
> in. Just need to be careful of storage as the bulbs are delicate.
> 2) heater with a low-heat mode that takes about 300-400W.
> 
> 
>> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 8:58 AM Josh Luthman  
>> wrote:
>> My UPS needs to be at 30% load to get a runtime load test.  I'm at 11% (of 
>> 750va) with the BH and AP up there.
>> 
>> If memory serves, back in 2015 I used a couple CRT monitors.  Those are long 
>> gone.  The only idea I have is a space heater, but that's 850-900 watts and 
>> will probably be too much.
>> 
>> Short of carrying up 20 Ubiquiti AP/POE and some surge strips, anyone have 
>> any clever ideas?  I have to carry this up 5 flights of stairs so please be 
>> gentle :)
>> 
>> Josh Luthman
>> 24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>> -- 
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> -- 
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load

[Colin Stanners]

Options I've used are
1) 3-4x "round ceiling" type lighbulb holders wirth 100W bulbs mounted on a
piece of wood, using PC power cords with the ends cut off to make them
plug-in. Inexpensive and load is customizable by choosing how many to plug
in. Just need to be careful of storage as the bulbs are delicate.
2) heater with a low-heat mode that takes about 300-400W.


On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 8:58 AM Josh Luthman 
wrote:

> My UPS needs to be at 30% load to get a runtime load test.  I'm at 11% (of
> 750va) with the BH and AP up there.
>
> If memory serves, back in 2015 I used a couple CRT monitors.  Those are
> long gone.  The only idea I have is a space heater, but that's 850-900
> watts and will probably be too much.
>
> Short of carrying up 20 Ubiquiti AP/POE and some surge strips, anyone have
> any clever ideas?  I have to carry this up 5 flights of stairs so please be
> gentle :)
>
> Josh Luthman
> 24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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[AFMUG] Need a 200-400 watt load

[Josh Luthman]

My UPS needs to be at 30% load to get a runtime load test.  I'm at 11% (of
750va) with the BH and AP up there.

If memory serves, back in 2015 I used a couple CRT monitors.  Those are
long gone.  The only idea I have is a space heater, but that's 850-900
watts and will probably be too much.

Short of carrying up 20 Ubiquiti AP/POE and some surge strips, anyone have
any clever ideas?  I have to carry this up 5 flights of stairs so please be
gentle :)

Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373
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Re: [AFMUG] Why do customers refuse to test things?

[Mike Hammett]

Hosted phone service is highly profitable and is recurring revenue. :-) 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Adam Moffett"  
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2021 10:18:38 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Why do customers refuse to test things? 

I'm about fed up with phone systems. Back in the day, I didn't 
understand why the phone system vendors charged $10k to install a $1200 
phone system, but now I get it. You can have tens of man-hours invested 
in making the tiniest phone system work exactly the way someone wants. 
I'm starting to think you have to plan on being there in person for 
awhile so they can immediately tell you what they don't like instead of 
stewing on it for a week. I also think when there's a week of back and 
forth on these adjustments we think of it as spending a week to make it 
perfect for them, but when they talk about it it'll be the story of 
their phones being all screwed up for a week. 

So My new thinking is that I can't go low on price. I have to go high 
so that I can afford to be there putting time into it, and if I can't 
afford that time investment then I should let somebody else handle it. 
And if they don't want to pay high, then they can figure out something 
else. Maybe I could go low if they would agree to a recurring 
maintenance contract, but I think most of the time they won't. 

It does help to have a conversation up front about how things should 
work, how calls should flow, what the IVR should do, etc. After I have 
that conversation I write up an outline and/or flow chart describing my 
interpretation of what we just talked about and email it to them. A lot 
of the time I think they just agree with the written form without 
reading it because we STILL end up with confusion sometimes, but at 
least we start out closer to the mark. It doesn't help that there's a 
terminology that is often unfamiliar to themthey say "voicemail", 
but they really meant an auto attendant or IVR or something else. 

Frankly, it's easier to just sell internet and let someone else be the 
"phone guy", but for some reason people keep coming to us about phones. 

-Adam 


On 1/6/2021 10:51 AM, Nate Burke wrote: 
> I notice this mostly when I do phone setups. Try to get everything 
> configured the way the customer explains to you, then you install it 
> and tell the customer to test it and make sure it's doing what they 
> want. They say 'Yea, yea, it's fine' As they're putting on their coat 
> to leave for the day, since you made them stay an extra minute later 
> than they though. Then you don't hear anything more at all out of 
> them. Then about 6 weeks later you get a call "THESE PHONES ARE JUST 
> ALL BROKEN, THEY'VE NEVER WORKED RIGHT, YOU NEED TO COME FIX THEM 
> NOW!!!" Usually it's something stupidly simple like, 4 extensions are 
> ringing for inbound calls, and only 3 should ring. But suddenly it's a 
> crisis of business terminating proportions. 
> 
> Over the holidays a customer with an ancient key system with no 
> answering service wanted us to provide voicemail for any incoming 
> calls for the 2 weeks of the holiday. OK, no problem, setup the 
> voicemail, and it sent out via email, I tested it with the office 
> Admin before break started, and it was all working fine. Then the 
> first day of the holiday they wanted to change the email address it 
> was sending the voicemails, to one of the owners. No problem, but 
> they never bothered to test the new email address, voicemails were 
> getting marked as spam by their system, and they only keep spam for 1 
> day. After break, they ask where all their voicemails were. For 2 
> weeks, you were not able to check that it's doing what you want? And 
> it never occurred you that you didn't see any voicemail coming through? 
> 
> These are all small businesses, for something that is so critical to 
> them why don't they check and make sure they're doing what they want? 
> Everyone has a cell phone they can use to dial in, it would take them 
> about 2 minutes to check, but they just refuse to. 
> 
> Ironically, many of these are also the same customers that will 
> religiously run speedtest.net on the hour, every hour, and let you 
> know if that little number on the screen is less than the last time it 
> ran. 
> 

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