Re: House letter to me

[Matt Haase]

Yes, they are busy answering peoples questions based on their curiosity.
There are thousands upon thousands of people who just want to know the truth
of something, and don't want to rely on their neighbors for knowledge.
Whether they have children already is irrelevant. They may want to have
children in the future and knowing the answers to these questions before
hand could actually be a good way to prepare. The Universal House of Justice
doesn't mind answering peoples' questions, or they would say so. They have
the authority to say so, and they don't have to be nice. They don't need
people to stick up for them and say they are too busy.







On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 3:25 PM, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 All the original letter said was that the individual
  Baha'i should decide for himself.

 Dear David,

 That would include having individual Baha'is decide whether or not to
 monitor what their children watch.

 David, they are very busy at the World Centre. You shouldn't be
 bothering them with question just to satisfy your curiosity. You don't
 have any children, do you? How then does this question concern you?

 warmest, Susan




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Re: Joining Partners with God

[Matt Haase]

The phrase joining partners with God is an Islamic term originally, and is
often interpreted to mean a belief that people should pray to Prophets,
Angels, Messengers to get closer to God, instead of approaching God
directly. It is condemned in the Qur'an as the only sin that God would not
forgive. I'm too tired to quote anything at the moment, but I will once I
get some sleep. However, it is not as black and white as that because the
Qur'an also alludes to the possibility of the permissibility of using
someone as an intercessor for God if God permits it. There are many
authentic traditions that support this view, but it in no way implies any
sort of worship of any other Being than God Alone.


On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 8:12 PM, Dean Betts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 Fellow Baha'is,

 Please read the following from the Persian Hidden Words:

  44. O COMPANION OF MY THRONE!
 Hear no evil, and see no evil, abase not thyself, neither sigh and weep.
 Speak no evil, that thou mayest not hear it spoken unto thee, and magnify
 not the faults of others that thine own faults may not appear great; and
 wish not the abasement of anyone, that thine own abasement be not exposed.
 Live then the days of thy life, that are less than a fleeting moment, with
 thy mind stainless, thy heart unsullied, thy thoughts pure, and thy nature
 sanctified, so that, free and content, thou mayest put away this mortal
 frame, and repair unto the mystic paradise and abide in the eternal kingdom
 for evermore.

  (Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words)

 To whom do you think  O COMPANION OF MY THRONE refers?
 We are warned many times in the Writings to not join partners with God.
 Would not a  COMPANION OF HIS THRONE be at least a minor partner?
 Therefore, I am thinking that this Persian Hidden Word #44 must be
 addressed to the Blessed Beauty.
 But, Persian Hidden Word #44, does not appear to be addressed to
 Baha'u'llah.

 Please share your thoughts on this.

 Happy Naw-Ruz,

 Dean Betts,
 Charlotte, NC












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Re: % of Writings online in original languages

[Matt Haase]

I am going to learn Arabic again (I took two years of it at the University,
but forgot most of it), and was wondering if anyone knew if one has to know
a specific dialect to read Baha'u'llah's Writings. I was learning
Levantine which is Lebanese and Syrian based, but I don't know if
Baha'u'lah wrote in a dialect that was more Iranian or Iraqi based?

peace,




On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 9:55 AM, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Dear David,

 They can be found here: http://reference.bahai.org/fa/ and here:
 http://reference.bahai.org/ar/

 I can't tell you what percentage this represents as some Tablets are
 still being sent to the World Centre by the families of the
 recipients. This basically represents those that have been previously
 published in some form or another.

 warmest, Susan

 On 3/23/08, David Friedman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  I know there was a letter some time back about the releasing of the
 Writings
  in the original languages.  I'm just wondering out of interest
 approximately
  what percentage of the Writings in the original languages can be found
  online currently.
 
  Regards,
  David
 
 


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Re: % of Writings online in original languages

[Matt Haase]

Thank you all,

I still have a Modern Standard Arabic textbook from my classes. I think
there are three or four books in the total series. I was also thinking of
learning Arabic from one of the local Mosques. They teach standard Arabic,
and Qur'anic Arabic.



On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 6:40 PM, Sen  Sonja [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  I am going to learn Arabic again (I took two years of it at the
  University, but forgot most of it), and was wondering if anyone knew
  if one has to know a specific dialect to read Baha'u'llah's Writings.

 Baha'u'llah uses a standard 19th century literary Arabic, which is
 not different from one region to another.

 There is a certain terminology that one must learn, by putting the
 texts translated by Shoghi Effendi alongside the Arabic original, so
 that you can relate what you read to the terms and concepts that you
 are familiar with in the Writings in English.

 Good luck.

 Sen
 --
 --
  -- -- --
 The influence of individual souls is and always will be beloved.  For
 the influence
 of each soul is its fruit, and a soul without influence is considered
 a tree without
 fruit in the most great realm.  Speak forth for the sake of God, and
 spread the
 cause for his sake.  Do not look at whether others accept or deny,
 but rather at
 the service you are commanded to perform by God.

 Baha'u'llah -- Tablet of the Son -- http://www-
 personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/2001/bhson.htmhttp://personal.umich.edu/%7Ejrcole/bahai/2001/bhson.htm






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Re: Relativity of truth

[Matt Haase]

I had a conversation like this with a friend of mine, who introduced me to
his idea that the 'relativity of religious truth' meant more than another
word to say 'progressive revelation'. He presented an eloquent, but
unconvincing (to my mind) argument that boils down to the concept that since
God is the Unknowable, whatever is said about Him in all of the Religious
Scriptures is true. If the Hebrew Scriptures and the Qur'an proclain
Monotheism, it is true. If the Hindu Scriptures proclaim Polytheism, it is
true. If God condemns the belief in the Trinity in one scripture, it is
true. But if God affirms the Trinity later on, it is true. I don't accept
that kind of logic, personally.

peace,







On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 9:23 PM, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  There are passages in the writings of the Guardian where he explained
  that what he meant by the relativity of religious truth, is that
  revealed truth is relative to the age in which it is revealed.  That is,
  the Guardian used this phrase as a synonym for Progressive Revelation.
 

 Dear Brent,

 Keep in mind though that the principle of Progressive Revleation also
 occurs within Dispensations.

 Jesus, for example, did not limit polygamy, but abolished divorce
 except in the case of fornication; Muhammad limited the number of
 wives to four reintroducing permission for divorce; Bahá'u'lláh, Who
 was revealing His Teachings in the milieu of a Muslim society,
 introduced the Question of monogamy gradually in accordance with the
 principles of wisdom and progressive unfoldment of His purpose.

(The Universal House of Justice, 1998 Apr 06, Memorandum re Wives
 of
 Baha'u'llah)

 warmest, Susan




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Re: Relativity of Truth

[Matt Haase]

What I mean Firestormin, is that not all of the Religious Scriptures agree
on fundamental theological matters. For instance, how am I supposed to
believe in the Hindu Scriptures that list a whole slew of various gods,
while simulteanously believe in the Hebrew and Qur'anic scriptures which
condemn polytheism? Even though I am a 'universalist' at heart, I can't let
a logical fallacy like that go unnoticed in my mind and heart.

peace,




On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 8:13 PM, firestorm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Matt,
  there's a simple way to sort out the idea:
  tell me which Revealed Text is error...
 nb i dfo nottt say..which commne t by whatever ecclesiatic is just so much
 roo dandruff...
  but which Revealed Text is error?
  if none, then...?




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Re: Relativity of Truth

[Matt Haase]

Hi Ian,

I would like to read that paper.

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 8:23 PM, Ian Kluge [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 If anyone is interested I will be pleased to send a copy of my paper
 Relativism and the Baha'i Writings presented at Irfan Colloquium at
 Bosch
 in May 2007.

 Best wishes,

 Ian Kluge

 
 
 
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-Original Message-
 

 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brent Poirier
 Attorney
 Sent: March 25, 2008 11:47 AM
 To: Baha'i Studies
 Subject: Re: Relativity of Truth

 Matt Haase wrote:

  I had a conversation like this with a friend of mine, who introduced
 me to his idea that the 'relativity of religious truth' meant more than
 another word to say 'progressive revelation'. He presented an eloquent,
 but unconvincing (to my mind) argument that boils down to the concept
 that since God is the Unknowable, whatever is said about Him in all of
 the Religious Scriptures is true. If the Hebrew Scriptures and the
 Qur'an proclain Monotheism, it is true. If the Hindu Scriptures proclaim
 Polytheism, it is true. If God condemns the belief in the Trinity in one
 scripture, it is true. But if God affirms the Trinity later on, it is
 true. I don't accept that kind of logic, personally.

 I'm with you, Matt.  Whatever wacky opinions I may express, if I don't
 back them up with the Baha'i Writings, my listener should not attribute
 these statements as having any bearing whatever on what the Baha'i Faith
 stands for.  That's why, I feel, the Guardian wrote through his secretary:

 Divine Truth is relative and that is why we are enjoined to constantly
 refer the seeker to the Word itself -- and why any explanations we make
 to ease the journey of the soul of any individual must be based on the
 Word -- and the Word alone.
 (From a letter dated 4 June 1957 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to
 the National Spiritual Assembly of Canada; from the Compilation, The
 Individual and Teaching - Raising the Divine Call, p. 39)

 Best regards
 Brent




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Re: Relativity of Truth

[Matt Haase]

I don't know, I just feel that the Qur'an intends itself to be quite literal
when talking about the Oneness and Uniqueness of God.


On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 5:13 PM, firestorm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 matt,
  what logical fallacy?
  i mean this dead seriously.
  if to say God is One is shirk...what is more shirky about 6 or 12? off
 hand, in what Text are u or i given Authority to classify 1st degree, 2nd
 degree, 3rd degree, or involuntary shirk?
  or are we all guilty of involuntary shirk by reason of our having
 material bodies? and thus yet, another proof of original sin in conformance
 with he Master's explanation. and only punishible to the degree we refuse to
 forgive others of the same crime? --Lor'ds Prayer. and who does the
 punishing? us. for we have met the enemy and he is uspogo

   it's a logical fallacy to say that light is a particle, or it's a wave.
 it can't be both. that;s not logical. o..never mind.
 it's just True.
  things don;t have to be possible--they just have to be true-from the
 2nd book of His dark Materials...known in usa as the golden compass.
   einstein resolves the issue percisely how Baha'u'llah Told him to in the
 Iqan...it depends on ur pov.
   from outside the system (godel's hypothesis) the results can be
 Reported.
   inside the system, nothing knows what it is.
 she turned my wave lengths into particles by the power of observance,
 sometimes on the sly --in old louisville, serpent wisdom.
   at one time We Said...whatever.. at another We Said...hmmm. something
 else, anyway...can u just get ur game on and go do It? 
  ok.. that may be a paraphrase:-)
   this can leave one paralysed with..but how do i know?
 and the Voice in It's unutterable mercy created smashmouth to tell
 u...u'll never know if u don;t go.



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Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song

[Matt Haase]

So, until we all agree and believe in the same religion, there will be no
peace? That is the message of the Faith?




On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 5:18 PM, Richard H. Gravelly 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  *The problem, if you will is that neither have accepted the Faith.*
 **
 *Richard.*


  - Original Message -
 *From:* Lara Kearns [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 *To:* Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
 *Sent:* Wednesday, March 26, 2008 12:36 PM
 *Subject:* Fwd: Jewish/Arab Peace Song




 Begin forwarded message:

 
  Subject: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
 
  (with English sub-titles)
 
  It is so simple...why is there a problem?
 
  http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=5d_i2F2LlF8http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d_i2F2LlF8



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Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song

[Matt Haase]

The Verse you quoted is very short, and I feel you have put a lot of
personal interpretation into it to support your view that the very reason
why there is conflict is because they are non-Baha'is. This suggests that if
they were Baha'is, they would not be in conflict with each other. Well, of
course. If everyone were of the same religion, political persuasion, liked
the same foods, the same music, etc, there would be substantially less
conflict. But that is not a unity I envision as something I would like to
work towards to. I would hate to wake up one morning and realize the Matel
Barbie Girl World I helped create.

The reason why I take issue with this view is nothing personal, but because
I feel it breeds mistrust of the 'other', and essentially puts the blame of
the problems of the world onto these people who haven't become Baha'is, as
if it is their fault by the fact that they practice a different religion
than the Baha'i Faith. Given that the members of the Baha'i Faith are only
in the millions, this can lead to an elitist view that only these millions
of Baha'is know what is going on and everyone else is just playing around or
something to that affect. I have run into this view many, many times, and I
disagree with it.



On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 2:11 AM, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I can't see that your qoute had any relevance to the context whatsoever.

 On 3/27/08, Richard H. Gravelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Uncharacteristically Susan, you misunderstood the reason for my quoting
 that
  particular passage.  We do not teach Jews in Israel.  We do not teach
 anyone
  in Israel.
 
  Look at the context in which I posted the quote and give it some
 thought.
 
  Richard.
 
 
  - Original Message -
  From: Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
  Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 5:21 PM
  Subject: Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
 
 
  The passage you cited has absolutely nothing to do with the question
  of what would resolve the Arab-Israeli dispute. The way you used that
  passage is certainly *not* reflective of the way Baha'u'llah tells us
  to deal with non-Baha'is. This is.
 
  Consort with all men, O people of Baha, in a spirit of friendliness
  and fellowship. If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a
  jewel, of which others are deprived, share it with them in a language
  of utmost kindliness and good-will. If it be accepted, if it fulfil
  its purpose, your object is attained. If any one should refuse it,
  leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye
  deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts
  of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with
  meaning, it is the fountain of the light of wisdom and
  understanding
 
  (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 288)
 
 
  On 3/26/08, Richard H. Gravelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   Am I to understand you to intend to say: This Word of Baha'u'llah
  resolves
   nothing?
  
   Richard.
  
  
   - Original Message -
   From: Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
   Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 4:44 PM
   Subject: Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
  
  
   And what Christian or Muslim would not the say the same?
  
   This resolves nothing. It just makes us like all the other religions
   making exclusive claims.
  
   On 3/26/08, Richard H. Gravelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I believe you have closely described the matter.  In the Writings,
 it
   seems
to me, it has been put in several ways.  Following is one.
   
Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso
 remaineth
   dead,
shall never live.(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of
   Baha'u'llah,
p. 213)
   
Dominus vobiscum.
   
Richard.
   
   
- Original Message -
From: Matt Haase
To: Baha'i Studies
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
   
   
So, until we all agree and believe in the same religion, there will
 be
  no
peace? That is the message of the Faith?
   
   
   
   
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 5:18 PM, Richard H. Gravelly
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
The problem, if you will is that neither have accepted the Faith.
   
Richard.
   
   
   
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
(e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC)
 and
  is
intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual
 or
   entity
named above. The information may be protected by federal and state
  privacy
and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this
 message
   is
not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention,
   dissemination,
distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If
 you
  have
received this e-mail in error please immediately notify

Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song

[Matt Haase]

I understand that what you said was not directed to me in the first place,
but since this is a forum, what one says in direction to another person is
not so much a private conversation, but an invitation for other people to
join in if they want to.

I'm not a Baha'i, by the way, so it felt somewhat insulting to hear someone
say that the reason why there is conflict is because they haven't accepted
the Faith.



On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 8:51 AM, Richard H. Gravelly 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 That you cannot see the issue, context, etc. is rather clear from your
 responses.  But then the post was not directed to you in the first
 instance.

 Dominus vobiscum.

 Richard.


 - Original Message -

 I can't see that your qoute had any relevance to the context whatsoever.

 On 3/27/08, Richard H. Gravelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Uncharacteristically Susan, you misunderstood the reason for my quoting
 that
  particular passage.  We do not teach Jews in Israel.  We do not teach
 anyone
  in Israel.
 
  Look at the context in which I posted the quote and give it some
 thought.
 
  Richard.
 
 
  - Original Message -
  From: Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
  Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 5:21 PM
  Subject: Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
 
 
  The passage you cited has absolutely nothing to do with the question
  of what would resolve the Arab-Israeli dispute. The way you used that
  passage is certainly *not* reflective of the way Baha'u'llah tells us
  to deal with non-Baha'is. This is.
 
  Consort with all men, O people of Baha, in a spirit of friendliness
  and fellowship. If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a
  jewel, of which others are deprived, share it with them in a language
  of utmost kindliness and good-will. If it be accepted, if it fulfil
  its purpose, your object is attained. If any one should refuse it,
  leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye
  deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts
  of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with
  meaning, it is the fountain of the light of wisdom and
  understanding
 
  (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 288)
 
 
  On 3/26/08, Richard H. Gravelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   Am I to understand you to intend to say: This Word of Baha'u'llah
  resolves
   nothing?
  
   Richard.
  
  
   - Original Message -
   From: Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
   Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 4:44 PM
   Subject: Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
  
  
   And what Christian or Muslim would not the say the same?
  
   This resolves nothing. It just makes us like all the other religions
   making exclusive claims.
  
   On 3/26/08, Richard H. Gravelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I believe you have closely described the matter.  In the Writings,
 it
   seems
to me, it has been put in several ways.  Following is one.
   
Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso
 remaineth
   dead,
shall never live.(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of
   Baha'u'llah,
p. 213)
   
Dominus vobiscum.
   
Richard.
   
   
- Original Message -
From: Matt Haase
To: Baha'i Studies
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
   
   
So, until we all agree and believe in the same religion, there will
 be
  no
peace? That is the message of the Faith?
   
   
   
   
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 5:18 PM, Richard H. Gravelly
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
The problem, if you will is that neither have accepted the Faith.
   
Richard.
   
   
   
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
(e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC)
 and
  is
intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual
 or
   entity
named above. The information may be protected by federal and state
  privacy
and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this
 message
   is
not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention,
   dissemination,
distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If
 you
  have
received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by
 email
   reply
and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
attachments thereto. Thank you.
   
   
   
- Original Message -
From: Lara Kearns
To: Baha'i Studies
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 12:36 PM
Subject: Fwd: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
   
   
   
   
   
   
Begin forwarded message:
   

 Subject: Jewish/Arab Peace Song

 (with English sub-titles)

 It is so simple...why is there a problem?

 http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=5d_i2F2LlF8http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d_i2F2LlF8

Re: Clashes

[Matt Haase]

I have an edition of the magazine 'What is Enlightenment?', and there is a
very interesting article with a Sufi Shaykh Ragip who is also a trained
Psyhologist (or Psychiatrist) where he mentions something about this idea of
'contending with Satan'. I will quote briefly from that part of the article.

'One way that Sheikh Tosun has spoken to this is: What do you do when a
thief comes into the house at night and you're in your bedroom, and you hear
this theif creeping around, you hear the candlesticks going into his bag? If
you charge downstairs with a knife in your hand, the thief will also have a
knife. If you have a gun in your hand, the thief will have a gun. No matter
what you've got in the house, the thief is going to have the same. It's
going to mirror that power that you use against it, and it's going to be
terribly destructive. So what do you do? The answer that he gave is, You
turn the light on! Because the thief is a coward, and if you turn the light
of awareness on the process, the thief will flee. You don't fight. You see,
the stupidest thing in the world is to fight with Satan. There are lots of
great stories in Sufism and elsewhere that show that when you try to fight
with Satan, guess who wins? It's a very bad idea.'




On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 1:21 PM, Gilberto Simpson 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Does anyone have a source/elaboration/explanation for the idea that
 Adam was expelled from the Garden for disagreeing with Satan?

 -Gilberto

 On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 9:36 AM, Richard H. Gravelly
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Benjamin La Framboise asked the question:
   Does this conversation count as a quarrel, a conflict, a dispute?
 
   Baha'is are allowed a certain amount of latitude in their discussions:
 
   The shining spark of truth cometh forth only after the clash of
 differing
   opinions. (Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha,
 p. 87)
 
   There is a limit:
 
   The honoured members of the Spiritual Assembly should exert their
 efforts
   so that no differences may occur, and if such differences do occur,
 they
   should not reach the point of causing conflict, hatred and antagonism,
 which
   lead to threats. When you notice that a stage has been reached when
 enmity
   and threats are about to occur, you should immediately postpone
 discussion
   of the subject, until wranglings, disputations, and loud talk vanish,
 and a
   propitious time is at hand.
   ('Abdu'l-Bahá: Consultation: A Compilation, from a previously
 untranslated
   Tablet)
 
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 178)
 
   Although these advices were Written in the context of instructions to
   Spiritual Assembly consultations, it seems to me that they have general
   application.
 
   With regard to the explanation by Abdu'l-Baha regarding Adam and the
   others
 
   Remember how Adam and the others once dwelt together in Eden. No
 sooner,
   however, did a quarrel break out between Adam and Satan than they were,
 one
   and all, banished from the Garden, and this was meant as a warning to
 the
   human race, a means of telling humankind that dissension -- even with
 the
   Devil -- is the way to bitter loss. This is why, in our illumined age,
 God
   teacheth that conflicts and disputes are not allowable, not even with
 Satan
   himself. (Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p.
 275)
 
   I believe that this can have specific and general application as well.
 
   Dominus vobiscum.
 
   Richard.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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 and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
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Re: Can/will someone transliterate a Passage into Arabic for me?

[Matt Haase]

Ok,

But I have a quick question. Is *Promulgation of Universal Peace* translated
*into* Arabic, as it is in many other languages? I don't mind if PUP wasn't
*originally* written in Arabic. I just want to learn that passage in Arabic,
kind of like someone would want to learn a Prayer/Passage in Russian,
Spanish, or French, etc.

peace,


On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 12:32 AM, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Matthew,

 If it is in PUP it is likely the prayer is in Persian rather than
 Arabic. Unforuntately we don't have all the original transepts for the
 talks contained in PUP. Perhaps Khazeh can tell us if this prayer can
 be found elsewhere.

 warmest, Susan

 On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 10:39 PM, swords-a-flashin'
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Peace,
 
  There is a Passage or Prayer from 'Abdu'l-Baha that I want to memorize
 in Arabic. I think it is from the Promulgation of Universal Peace, and has a
 line in there that says something like Consider no one as rejected
 
  Is there any Arabic reading/speaking people here, or does anyone know
 someone who could transliterate the Arabic with English phoenetics for me,
 so I can learn how to memorize it? I can read some Arabic script, but I have
 trouble pronouncing words without transliteration to help me out.
 
  This is the Passage in question:
 
  But some souls are weak; we must endeavor to strengthen them. Some are
 ignorant, uninformed of the bounties of God; we must strive to make them
 knowing. Some are ailing; we must seek to restore them to health. Some are
 immature as children; they must be trained and assisted to attain maturity.
 We nurse the sick in tenderness and the kindly spirit of love; we do not
 despise them because they are ill. Therefore, we must exercise extreme
 patience, sympathy and love toward all mankind, considering no soul as
 rejected. If we look upon a soul as rejected, we have disobeyed the
 teachings of God. God is loving to all. Shall we be unjust or unkind to
 anyone? Is this allowable in the sight of God? God provides for all. Is it
 befitting for us to prevent the flow of His merciful provisions for mankind?
 God has created all in His image and likeness. Shall we manifest hatred for
 His creatures and servants? This would be contrary to the will of God and
 according to the will of Satan, by which we mean the natural inclinations of
 the lower nature. This lower nature in man is symbolized as Satan -- the
 evil ego within us, not an evil personality outside.
 
   (Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 286)
 
  peace,
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: Can/will someone transliterate a Passage into Arabic for me?

[Matt Haase]

I'm sorry I mentioned that it was partly a Prayer. I don't know why I wrote
that.

This is the passage in question,


*But some souls are weak; we must endeavor to strengthen them. Some are
ignorant, uninformed of the bounties of God; we must strive to make them
knowing. Some are ailing; we must seek to restore them to health. Some are
immature as children; they must be trained and assisted to attain maturity.
We nurse the sick in tenderness and the kindly spirit of love; we do not
despise them because they are ill. Therefore, we must exercise extreme
patience, sympathy and love toward all mankind, considering no soul as
rejected. If we look upon a soul as rejected, we have disobeyed the
teachings of God. God is loving to all. Shall we be unjust or unkind to
anyone? Is this allowable in the sight of God? God provides for all. Is it
befitting for us to prevent the flow of His merciful provisions for mankind?
God has created all in His image and likeness. Shall we manifest hatred for
His creatures and servants? This would be contrary to the will of God and
according to the will of Satan, by which we mean the natural inclinations of
the lower nature. This lower nature in man is symbolized as Satan -- the
evil ego within us, not an evil personality outside.*

* (Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 286)*
**
I want to learn how to recite this passage in Arabic, if it has been
translated into Arabic. I can't pronounce Arabic words well, without
transliteration. So, I was hoping someone could transliterate the Arabic
sounds into English phoenetics. I also insinuated that this book has been
translated into many different languages. I meant to write that the Writings
in general have been translated into many different languages. I've been
having a bad day with mis-writing and speaking things.

peace,

On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 2:11 AM, Khazeh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



 Dear matt and  susan
 I will try to find what you are looking for
 Is it a prayer or is it a passage in pup
 That talk in pup is mentioned in zarqani's account of the travels and
 talks
 of the Master [badaayiul athaar] recently summarized in english as
 mahmud's
 diary.
 But the text the full text is not in zarqani.
 If I knew which prayer you are looking for I could possibly help

 But there is no prayer in the passage or talk you excerpt from


 27 August 19123
   Talk at Metaphysical Club
 Boston, Massachusetts
Notes by Edna McKinney
 Upon the faces of those present I behold the expression of
 thoughtfulness and wisdom; therefore, I shall discourse upon a subject
 involving one of the divine questions, a question of religious and
 metaphysical importance - namely, the progressive and perpetual motion of
 elemental atoms throughout the various degrees of phenomena and the
 kingdoms
 of existence.  It will be demonstrated and become evident that the origin
 and outcome of phenomena are identical and that there is an essential
 oneness in all existing things.  This is a subtle principle appertaining
 to
 divine philosophy and requiring close analysis and attention.
 The elemental atoms which constitute all phenomenal existence and
 being
 in this illimitable universe are in perpetual motion, undergoing
 continuous
 degrees of progression.  For instance, let us conceive of an atom in the
 mineral kingdom progressing upward to the kingdom of the vegetable by
 entering into the composition and fibre of a tree or plant.  From thence
 it
 is assimilated and transferred into the kingdom of the animal and finally,
 by the law and process of composition, becomes a part of the body of man.
 That is to say, it has traversed the intermediate degrees and stations of
 phenomenal existence, entering into the composition of various organisms
 in
 its journey.  This motion or transference is progressive and perpetual,
 for
 after disintegration of the human body into which it has entered, it
 returns
 to the mineral kingdom whence it came and will continue to traverse the
 kingdoms of phenomena as before.  This is an illustration designed to show
 that the constituent elemental atoms of phenomena undergo progressive
 transference and motion throughout the material kingdoms.
 In its ceaseless progression and journeyings the atom becomes imbued
 with the virtues and powers of each degree or kingdom it traverses.  In
 the
 degree of the mineral it possessed mineral affinities; in the kingdom of
 the
 vegetable it manifested the augmentative virtue or power of growth; in the
 animal organism it reflected the intelligence of that degree; and in the
 kingdom of man it was qualified with human attributes or virtues.
 Furthermore, the forms and organisms of phenomenal being and existence
 in each of the kingdoms of the universe are myriad and numberless.  The
 vegetable plane or kingdom, for instance, has its infinite variety of
 

Re: The first sixteen bishops

[Matt Haase]

Christianity, Islam, and the Baha'i Faith all state that Jesus abrogated
some laws from the Torah, but when I read the Gospels it doesn't seem like
he did much of that. There is the instance of healing on sabbath, and a few
other necessary exceptions to the rule. But they were just that; exceptions,
not absolute abrogations. I think Jesus's famous saying *The sabbath was
made for man, not man for the sabbath* was to teach a lesson of moderation,
but not of total abrogation. Likewise, his other saying I* have not come to
destroy the law, but to fulfill it* does not mean that he supported every
single 613 laws, including some of the more severe punishments, at least not
in their literal and ahistorical implementation. After all, he convinced the
townspeople not to stone the woman to death. I know what all three religions
say about it, but I'm just expressing how I felt when I read the Gospels.

I also read in a book that the idea that all of the Jews at the time of
Jesus were literalists and wanted to implement all of the laws of the
Torah without looking into historical context and having no sense of
jurisprudence, is erroneous. It said that the Pharisees were actually quite
the intellectuals, and it was the Sadduces who were the literalists, the
Wahabbis of Judaism, if you will.

So it seems to me that the reason why Jesus was so hard on the Pharisees,
and not the Sadduces, was because they were so arrogant and elitist in their
knowledge. And their knowledge became a veil to see and appreciate the
universal truths Jesus was teaching the common people. Just my two cents,
and a $1 dollar cheeseburger.

Peace,

On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 1:39 PM, Sen  Sonja [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 The immediate source of WOB p 57 is Gibbon, Decline and Fall, chapter
 XV. The reason for the similarity with other authors is that both
 Gibbon and many other writers are quoting Eusebius. Here's Gibbon's
 version, the section used by Shoghi Effendi is towards the end:


 Chapter XV: Progress Of The Christian Religion. -- Part II.

 The enfranchisement of the church from the bonds of the synagogue was
 a work, however, of some time and of some difficulty. The Jewish
 converts, who acknowledged Jesus in the character of the Messiah
 foretold by their ancient oracles, respected him as a prophetic
 teacher of virtue and religion; but they obstinately adhered to the
 ceremonies of their ancestors, and were desirous of imposing them on
 the Gentiles, who continually augmented the number of believers.
 These Judaizing Christians seem to have argued with some degree of
 plausibility from the divine origin of the Mosaic law, and from the
 immutable perfections of its great Author. They affirmed,that if the
 Being, who is the same through all eternity, had designed to abolish
 those sacred rites which had served to distinguish his chosen people,
 the repeal of them would have been no less clear and solemn than
 their first promulgation: that, instead of those frequent
 declarations, which either suppose or assert the perpetuity of the
 Mosaic religion, it would have been represented as a provisionary
 scheme intended to last only to the coming of the Messiah, who should
 instruct mankind in a more perfect mode of faith and of worship: that
 the Messiah himself, and his disciples who conversed with him on
 earth, instead of authorizing by their example the most minute
 observances of the Mosaic law, would have published to the world the
 abolition of those useless and obsolete ceremonies, without suffering
 Christianity to remain during so many years obscurely confounded
 among the sects of the Jewish church. Arguments like these appear to
 have been used in the defence of the expiring cause of the Mosaic
 law; but the industry of our learned divines has abundantly explained
 the ambiguous language of the Old Testament, and the ambiguous
 conduct of the apostolic teachers. It was proper gradually to unfold
 the system of the gospel, and to pronounce, with the utmost caution
 and tenderness, a sentence of condemnation so repugnant to the
 inclination and prejudices of the believing Jews.

 The history of the church of Jerusalem affords a lively proof of the
 necessity of those precautions, and of the deep impression which the
 Jewish religion had made on the minds of its sectaries. **The first
 fifteen bishops of Jerusalem were all circumcised Jews; and the
 congregation over which they presided united the law of Moses with
 the doctrine of Christ. It was natural that the primitive tradition
 of a church which was founded only forty days after the death of
 Christ, and was governed almost as many years under the immediate
 inspection of his apostle, should be received as the standard of
 orthodoxy. The distant churches very frequently appealed to the
 authority of their venerable Parent, and relieved her distresses by a
 liberal contribution of alms. ...

 Gibbon goes on to speak of the Nazarenes and the mosaic law, as does
 Shoghi Effendi

Re: The first sixteen bishops

[Matt Haase]

I don't think it is required by the Shariah, either. I think it is 'Sunnah'
to grow a beard, but not 'Shariah'. My separating two actually complicates
things, but the Taliban forbidding men to cut their beards is not what a
'true Islamic state' would do. Anyway, I hope I didn't veer off too much
from the original subject, which was early Christians who were observing
Jewish practices.




On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 9:38 AM, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Christians actually
  did maintain a high level of Torah obsevance (so they would have
  looked alot like Muslims, following a similar dietary code, making
  pilgrimages to a holy city, praying at certain times of the day, males
  growing beards, etc.) while the Pauline Christians are actuually
  heretical.

 Dear Gilberto,

 Growing beards is not actually part of the Torah and my understanding
 is that it really isn't something required according to the Shariah
 either. There is certainly nothing in the Qur'an about this. It is
 just one of those things Muslims do because the Prophet did.

 warmest, Susan




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Re: Transliterating the Short Obligatory Prayer from Arabic.

[Matt Haase]

Thank you so much

On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 2:47 PM, Khazeh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




 
 
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Re: Neoscholasticism/Perennial Philosophy

[Matt Haase]

Dear Mark,

I'm unsure what there is to disagree with? Don't oak trees, dogs, and horses
exist? Or does perennial philosophy suggest that the essences of oak
trees, dogs, and horses exist outside physical perspective? This is a bit
over my head, so I am having a little difficulty understanding.

On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 2:52 AM, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 Hi, folks:

 Apologies for the rather long posting.

 I thought I would raise a subject based on a rather interesting book I have
 been reading. The title is, _Understanding Our Being: An Introduction to
 Speculative Philosophy in the Perennial Tradition_. It was written by John
 W. Carlson, who is professor and chair of the department of philosophy at
 Creighton University. Here is his website, where he has two other short
 books which can be downloaded for free as PDF files:

 http://puffin.creighton.edu/phil/Carlson/

 About 10 years ago, I would have embraced the content of this book, and the
 author's overall perspective, with almost no reservations. Now, I find his
 entire premise to be triumphalistic, purely apologetic, and hardly worth the
 time he put into it. Nonetheless, inasmuch as the book has demonstrated to
 me how much my own views have changed, I enjoyed reading it.

 For those who are unfamiliar with the idea of the perennial philosophy (or
 philosophia perennis), it is a term which was coined in the 16th century by
 the Roman Catholic counter-Reformationist, Agostino Steuco. He used it to
 refer to medieval Roman Catholic scholasticism and especially to the
 neo-Augustinian and neo-Aristotelian theology and philosophy of Thomas
 Aquinas and, in addition, to the views of Duns Scotus (definitely not
 William of Ockham). Briefly, Steuco triumphalistically argued that
 scholasticism, mostly Thomism, represented a perennial philosophy, which has
 been expressed in many cultures (Christian and otherwise), and found its
 fullest expression in the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.

 There have since been other usages of the term perennial philosophy,
 which has extended the term outside of Roman Catholicism, especially in Rene
 Guenon's traditionalist esotericism and in various ideas inspired by Aldous
 Huxley's book, _The Perennial Philosophy_. However, the most enduring usage
 of the term has been within Roman Catholicism, and several recent Popes have
 espoused the perennial philosophy, now usually identified with the
 neoscholastic movement (really neothomism), a scholastic revivalist movement
 inside that church.

 To summarize, in its most basic usage, the Roman Catholic version of the
 perennial philosophy is neoscholasticism or neothomism. Among its main
 assumptions is the idea that God creates *real* categories (like species)
 which can be observed, discussed, and evaluated. Oak trees, dogs, and horses
 are essences which exist and can be seen in particular instances of those
 essences (specific oak trees, dogs, and horses). However, to the
 neoscholastics, they are real essences, not merely nominal (verbal)
 conventions.

 As I said, I disagree almost thoroughly with neoscholasticism and the
 perennial philosophy, but I found Carlson's book to be fascinating.

 --
 Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D.  *  http://www.markfoster.net
 ... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
 basic fault lines today are not between people with different
 beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
 element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
 a pretense of certitude. — Peter L. Berger, sociologist






 --
 Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D.  *  http://www.markfoster.net
 ... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
 basic fault lines today are not between people with different
 beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
 element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
 a pretense of certitude. — Peter L. Berger, sociologist




 The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
 (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is
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 received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply
 and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
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or 

Re: Neoscholasticism/Perennial Philosophy

[Matt Haase]

Dear Ian,

I would like to read that paper.

On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 12:05 PM, Ian Kluge [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 For those who are interested, I can send you the whole or parts of my paper
 Some Answered Questions - A Philosophical Perspective (83 pages) given at
 Irfan Colloquium at Bosch which shows that the philosophy embedded in SAQ
 harmonises well with neo-scholasticism, or as I call it, the Athenian
 tradition in philosophy.

 This is especially true vis-à-vis the ontological reality of categories and
 species. SAQ is strongly anti-nominalist.

 BTW, people should be aware that not all neo-thomists or neo-scholastics
 are
 Catholics.

 Best wishes,

 Ian Kluge

 
 
 
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) 
is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be 
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-Original Message-
 

 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark A. Foster
 Sent: June 19, 2008 11:52 PM
 To: Baha'i Studies
 Subject: Neoscholasticism/Perennial Philosophy

 Hi, folks:

 Apologies for the rather long posting.

 I thought I would raise a subject based on a rather interesting book I
 have been reading. The title is, _Understanding Our Being: An
 Introduction to Speculative Philosophy in the Perennial Tradition_. It
 was written by John W. Carlson, who is professor and chair of the
 department of philosophy at Creighton University. Here is his website,
 where he has two other short books which can be downloaded for free as
 PDF files:

 http://puffin.creighton.edu/phil/Carlson/

 About 10 years ago, I would have embraced the content of this book, and
 the author's overall perspective, with almost no reservations. Now, I
 find his entire premise to be triumphalistic, purely apologetic, and
 hardly worth the time he put into it. Nonetheless, inasmuch as the book
 has demonstrated to me how much my own views have changed, I enjoyed
 reading it.

 For those who are unfamiliar with the idea of the perennial philosophy
 (or philosophia perennis), it is a term which was coined in the 16th
 century by the Roman Catholic counter-Reformationist, Agostino Steuco.
 He used it to refer to medieval Roman Catholic scholasticism and
 especially to the neo-Augustinian and neo-Aristotelian theology and
 philosophy of Thomas Aquinas and, in addition, to the views of Duns
 Scotus (definitely not William of Ockham). Briefly, Steuco
 triumphalistically argued that scholasticism, mostly Thomism,
 represented a perennial philosophy, which has been expressed in many
 cultures (Christian and otherwise), and found its fullest expression in
 the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.

 There have since been other usages of the term perennial philosophy,
 which has extended the term outside of Roman Catholicism, especially in
 Rene Guenon's traditionalist esotericism and in various ideas inspired
 by Aldous Huxley's book, _The Perennial Philosophy_. However, the most
 enduring usage of the term has been within Roman Catholicism, and
 several recent Popes have espoused the perennial philosophy, now usually
 identified with the neoscholastic movement (really neothomism), a
 scholastic revivalist movement inside that church.

 To summarize, in its most basic usage, the Roman Catholic version of the
 perennial philosophy is neoscholasticism or neothomism. Among its main
 assumptions is the idea that God creates *real* categories (like
 species) which can be observed, discussed, and evaluated. Oak trees,
 dogs, and horses are essences which exist and can be seen in particular
 instances of those essences (specific oak trees, dogs, and horses).
 However, to the neoscholastics, they are real essences, not merely
 nominal (verbal) conventions.

 As I said, I disagree almost thoroughly with neoscholasticism and the
 perennial philosophy, but I found Carlson's book to be fascinating.

 --
 Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D.  *  http://www.markfoster.net
 ... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
 basic fault lines today are not between people with different
 beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
 element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
 a pretense of certitude. — Peter L. Berger, sociologist






 --
 Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D.  *  http://www.markfoster.net
 ... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
 basic fault lines today are not between people 

Re: Apologies for the Off-topic Posting

[Matt Haase]

I'll say some prayers. I hope everything will turn out ok.

On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 7:35 PM, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 Hi, folks:

 Apologies for the off-topic posting. However, I just spoke with my sister,
 and it appears that my father, Harold Foster, may be dying of an persistent
 pneumonia.

 He was just in the hospital, but they sent him home a few days ago. He
 lives in an assisted living facility. They are, it seems, doing all they
 can.

 --
 Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D.  *  http://www.markfoster.net
 ... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
 basic fault lines today are not between people with different
 beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
 element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
 a pretense of certitude. — Peter L. Berger, sociologist





 The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
 (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is
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 named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
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 not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,
 distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
 received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply
 and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
 attachments thereto. Thank you.


 
 
 
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Re: Neoscholasticism/Perennial Philosophy

[Matt Haase]

Dear Gilberto,

I'm not sure if it is about Ali-Muhammad (the Bab') VS. Ibn 'Arabi, or about
Shi'a VS. Sunni. After studying the writings of Baha'u'llah in regards to
the issues that Muslims bring up about theological matters, the more I am
convinced that both the Bab' and Baha'u'llah were stern monotheists. Ibn
Arabi's concept of emanation ends with the whole universe being God Himself,
which is the basis of monism, which in my study and reading the Qur'an does
not advocate. God is the First Cause of existence, and His Essence begins
to permeate all things throughout time, until every being, every person,
every life, every atom, every thing in existence is not only a spiritual
manifestation of God's Attributes, but is a part (if only a tiny) of
God's actual Essence itself. As far as I know, Baha'u'llah and the Bab' said
no to that proposition and offered instead the idea that everything in the
universe is a manifestation of God's Attributes, which is different in
some degree to His Essence. But even though this may seem like only a
metaphorical re-interpretation of those old monist doctrines, the analogy of
the sun and the mirror was given. Even though the sun is not physically in
the mirror, you can still feel the heat of the sun through the mirror, which
could sort of open the door back to monism, lol! I just shot myself in the
foot.




On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 1:14 AM, Gilberto Simpson 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I'm not sure if anyone here would know but is this really a Bab vs.
 Ibn Arabi thing or a Sunni vs. Shia thing? I ask because it reminds me
  of what I've read about respective Sunni/Shia views about the
 uncreatedness of the Quran and God's attributes. (i.e. Is God's speech
 eternal and/or distinct from Allah?)

 -Gilberto

 On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 4:41 PM, Mazda Karimi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
  Incidentally, the Bab was critical of Ibn Arabi's concept of A'yan
  Thabita (which proposes the preexistence of the forms in the divine
  Essence). He insists that the idea that there is an intermediary world of
  A'yan between God and His creation is shirk.
  Best Regards
  Mazda
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: Neoscholasticism/Perennial Philosophy

[Matt Haase]

Dear Gilberto,

Just so you know, I wasn't accusing Ibn Arabi' of shirk (associating
partners with God), or that Baha'is were accusing Muslims of shirk. As for a
clear definition of shirk from a Baha'i perspective, I don't know of any. I
haven't found one, at least.

Peace,

On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 5:22 AM, Gilberto Simpson 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Yeah, I generally think that Ibn Arabi is pretty technical and
 wouldn't want to go out on a limb like that about his teachings. But I
 would tend to view him sympathetically.A broad consensus holds him is
 a Muslim saint so I would be really really really reluctant to just
 accuse him of shirk so easily. The typical encyclopedia article about
 him might mention his doctrine of wahdat al-wujud and point out that
 it is often *confused* with pantheism but is actually distinct.I would
 also say that Bahais accusing Muslims of shirk just sounds really
 bizzare to me, to the point of being almost incoherent. So maybe a
 clear Bahai definition of shirk might be useful.

 -G

 On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 3:59 AM, Matt Haase [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
  Dear Gilberto,
 
  I'm not sure if it is about Ali-Muhammad (the Bab') VS. Ibn 'Arabi, or
 about
  Shi'a VS. Sunni. After studying the writings of Baha'u'llah in regards to
  the issues that Muslims bring up about theological matters, the more I am
  convinced that both the Bab' and Baha'u'llah were stern monotheists. Ibn
  Arabi's concept of emanation ends with the whole universe being God
 Himself,
  which is the basis of monism, which in my study and reading the Qur'an
 does
  not advocate. God is the First Cause of existence, and His Essence
 begins
  to permeate all things throughout time, until every being, every person,
  every life, every atom, every thing in existence is not only a spiritual
  manifestation of God's Attributes, but is a part (if only a tiny) of
  God's actual Essence itself. As far as I know, Baha'u'llah and the Bab'
 said
  no to that proposition and offered instead the idea that everything in
 the
  universe is a manifestation of God's Attributes, which is different
 in
  some degree to His Essence. But even though this may seem like only a
  metaphorical re-interpretation of those old monist doctrines, the analogy
 of
  the sun and the mirror was given. Even though the sun is not physically
 in
  the mirror, you can still feel the heat of the sun through the mirror,
 which
  could sort of open the door back to monism, lol! I just shot myself in
 the
  foot.
 
 
 
 
  On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 1:14 AM, Gilberto Simpson
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  I'm not sure if anyone here would know but is this really a Bab vs.
  Ibn Arabi thing or a Sunni vs. Shia thing? I ask because it reminds me
   of what I've read about respective Sunni/Shia views about the
  uncreatedness of the Quran and God's attributes. (i.e. Is God's speech
  eternal and/or distinct from Allah?)
 
  -Gilberto
 
  On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 4:41 PM, Mazda Karimi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  wrote:
   Incidentally, the Bab was critical of Ibn Arabi's concept of A'yan
   Thabita (which proposes the preexistence of the forms in the divine
   Essence). He insists that the idea that there is an intermediary world
   of
   A'yan between God and His creation is shirk.
   Best Regards
   Mazda
  
  
  
  
  
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 and is
   intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or
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 privacy
   and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this
 message is
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   distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you
 have
   received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email
 reply
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   attachments thereto. Thank you.
  
  
  
 
 
 
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Re: Neoscholasticism/Perennial Philosophy

[Matt Haase]

Analysis shows that 'Abdu'l-Bahá strictly confines his remarks (*Commentary
on the Islamic Tradition: 'I Was a Hidden treasure,*')  to the
*subjective*criteria for truth: given their own presuppositions and
criteria, the
advocates of each viewpoint reason correctly and attain a conclusion that is
consistent with their spiritual conditions as knowers. In other words,
'Abdu'l-Bahá's argument is *subjectively* epistemological – concerned with
the knowers and not with what is objectively known and the quality of
their knowledge, with the perceiver and not with the perceived. He is not
talking about what actually is the case but rather about what the viewer *
thinks* is the case because of his presuppositions, nature and spiritual
condition

I know this is a short comment, but what you just described reminds me of
the verse of the Qur'an, *Revile not those unto whom they pray beside Allah
lest they wrongfully revile Allah through ignorance. Thus unto every nation
have We made their deed seem fair.* -6:108

On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 12:01 PM, Ian Kluge [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Dear Mazda,



 RE: avoiding the complexities of the subject, reframing it to suit the
 presuppositions of his audience, and advancing it in a very meaningful way.



 As for reaching western audiences, as I said before, this would have been a
 mistake since Aristotle and the metaphysics of the entire Athenian tradition
 had been out of favor for centuries in Europe. If communicating with the
 audience had been his aim, he would have been better to use Hegel who was
 widely known and taught in England, the U.S. and of course, Germany and hard
 large followings in all three.  (Even John Dewey started as a committed
 American Hegelian.) In France Hegelianism did not take off until the earlier
 20th C. but other, non-Athenian philosophers like Bergson and Blondel were
 in the forefront of public awareness. Americans, of course, would also have
 been familiar with Emerson (who has a strong Hegelian streak) and James.



 Since the history of philosophy shows that choosing the Athenian tradition
 to communicate with western audiences would have been a serious mistake –
 and for that reason I do not think it is the likely reason Abdu'l-Baha makes
 use of this tradition simply as a supposed communicative device.



 IMO, he was setting out the framework in which to develop a philosophical
 world-view. Of course, this world-view requires further development, but, as
 the work of Whitehead or Marcel illustrate, as well as Brian Ellis's
 Scientific Essentialism (U of Cambridge, 2001), not to mention the wide
 varieties of neo-Thomism, the Athenian tradition is capable of highly
 diverse development.  Dismissing it as 'static' is simplistic.



 If the re-framing is so radical that it misrepresents one's ideas, then in
 fact it does become misleading, and does not educate but miseducate. If,
 one's view is that there are no essences but at the same time consistently
 one provides explanations in terms of essences, - without ever explicitly
 indicating that essences are not real – then one is either a very poor
 and/or very confused teacher, or one has been misunderstood by others. I
 adopt the latter option.



 RE the Athenian tradition, I note that Mulla Sadra is in agreement with
 Thomas Aquinas the existence is the prime category of metaphysics. This is
 no small potato.



 Moreover, when I re-read The Metaphysics by Mulla Sadra, - translated by
 Parviz Morewedge- I noted that he is not necessarily outside the Athenian
 tradition at all points. Whether he is actually able to be consistently
 non-essentialist is, IMO, doubtful. The distinction between mental
 existence and the existence of fully determined concrete entities external
 to the mind is certainly essentialist, as is the difference between
 internal and external. People should remember that even Sartre, the most
 programmatically anti-essentialist philosopher of our time, could not
 maintain that position consistently. Mulla Sadra's idea that change is an
 entity in itself, of course, has its own serious difficulties.



 RE: I have noticed how there he tends to attribute the difference in the
 approaches to the stations of the great thinkers who fostered each one of
 them, rather than anything inherent in the nature of physical reality. And I
 do not think that Abd'ul-Baha sees his own account of the concept of essence
 in SAQ as in any special way more objective than those he discusses Kuntu
 Kanz.



 In my paper Relativism and the Bahai Writings (forthcoming publication by
 Irfan) I deal with that issue via Dr. Momen's paper on relativism where he
 tries to reconcile monism and dualist views on the basis of the station of
 the thinker. It seems to me you are adopting a similar position. For sake of
 brevity, I have provided part of my conclusion about this reading of the
 Commentary.



 Analysis shows that 'Abdu'l-Bahá strictly confines his remarks (*Commentary
 on the Islamic 

Re: translation request

[Matt Haase]

HI rather dislike the divisiveness tone of whatever speech or letter
this comes from. What I gather from it is Baha'i=Good in character, and
non-Baha'i= Bad in character. I think I might know what this comes from.
Someone played me an audio of a sermon by a Shi'a Imam from Iran about this
very subject. Basically he goes on and on about how virtious the Baha'is
are, and now non-virtious the Shi'as are. And then he says that this is a
tactic on the part of the Baha'is because they are not allowed to openly
teach their faith in words, and the Shi'as should be wary of this
virtiousness of the Baha'is. I, for one, don't like the tone of the entire
thing. I think it is wrong to generalize any group of people as good in
character or bad in character, no matter what agenda you're aiming to
accomplish.

On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 11:12 PM, Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EG-IMOD0m0feature=related



 A friend offers this translation, but is it dependable? I know he is not to
 any degree fluent, so he is passing along someone else's translation of the
 speech. I will also check out some other sources as well.

 Open your eyes.
 The Baha'is are causing a stir.
 Can you see what they have done?
 Do you know this??

 Can you see how their actions coincide with their teachings, and this is
 their BEST way of teaching their faith!
 Are you aware of this? Are you?

 A Baha'i girl, in a school of 800 girls, has studied to such a degree and
 carries herself in such a way that everyone is amazed.
 Are you aware of this?!

 She is so dignified that anyone who doesn't know her, thinks that she is
 probably the daughter of an Ayatollah… but she's a Baha'i!

 Look at how a Baha'i girl walks, and look at how a Shia Muslim girl walks!
 Oh, oh, oh! If I go on and on, you guys will lose hope! I should just say,
 Hey guys, I will see you in hell tomorrow. Honestly.

 Look at what they're doing. I don't want to make you guys unhopeful --- I
 want to wake you up!
 Either you (Mullahs) know how to do something or not. If not, then get lost
 and let other [Muslims] do their job.
 As soon as one of the Mullahs finally manage to do something positive,
 another one of you do something again.

 I will say this and if anyone doesn't like what I'm saying, they don't have
 to come here tomorrow evening

 The Baha'is faith is like a wolf to us and our efforts.
 I will give a prize to the first person who shows me a Baha'i or Jew who is
 a drug addict.
 You don't see a single Baha'i who is a drug addict.
 You don't see a single Baha'i whose behaviour is bad, who grabs someone by
 the collar to swear at them.

 When tested on the Quran at school, a Baha'i would receive 20/20 and a
 Shiah Muslim would get 2/20.
 (Mind you, we only gave them a score of 2 because we know the student's
 dad). I mean, the dad wouldn't be satisfied otherwise and would get angry.

 I myself had a Baha'i student, a Jewish student, and a Christian student.
 I swear to ((the Mullah mentions a few holy places)) that I would give
 20/20 to a Baha'i for their personality and behaviour ...because I can't
 give them 30!
 In class, a Baha'i student wouldn't have any quarrels with anyone, would
 never swear at anyone; never did he ever stir up the class, (shouts) - VERY
 TIDY APPEARANCE! …. But what about a Shiah?! Nothing. Search the school. 




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   Military SF technothriller, *Sword of the Dajjal*, e-book from
 http://www.booksforabuck.com/sfpages/sf_07/sword_dajjal.html
 http://www.fictionwise.com/eBooks/eBook47261.htm?cached (later in the year
 in print)
 Erotic paranormal thriller *Jars of Doom*, out from Blu Phi'er 2008.
 I BLog!: http://cscottsaylorsbooks.blogspot.com/



 
 
 
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Re: Astrotheology

[Matt Haase]

Dear Mark,

I never knew there was a name for that kind of interpretation. I partly
agree/disagree with that way of interpreting scriptures. On the one hand, I
am not a literalist and I don't believe in a physical paradise, hell, etc.
But on the other hand, I can sympathize with fundamentalists who get
concerned that if we interpret everything allegorically or mythically, we
have nothing but 'well-meaning fiction'. I watched the film in question
about 8 months ago, and I especially liked the part you have posted. It
can't be denied that all of these similarities do exist between Horus,
Mithras, Jesus, Dionysous, etc.


On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 8:39 PM, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 We recently had a discussion on the Neoplatonic/Aristotelian language game
 (IMO) in the Baha'i texts. I wanted to raise the issue of the language game
 in texts of the Tanakh and the New Testament.

 A few years ago, I came across a perspective called, astrotheology. I had
 extended discussions with several people who hold to this perspective online
 and later reviewed some materials which one of them recommended to me.

 The premise of astrotheology is that the events reported in the Tanakh and,
 especially, the New Testament never took place. Instead, they are simple
 repetitions of a common mythos in the ancient world: a being who is born of
 a virgin and then resurrected.

 This video is long, but I would strongly recommend it:

 http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

 Clearly, I do not accept the premise of the film, which is that Jesus never
 lived, and the Gospels are simply a restatement of a frequently retold
 narrative. Nonetheless, I have wondered whether this astrotheology might
 not be, in part, the context within which the sacred histories of the Gospel
 were presented.

 --
 Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D.  *  http://www.markfoster.net
 ... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
 basic fault lines today are not between people with different
 beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
 element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
 a pretnse of certitude. — Peter L.Berger, sociologist





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Re: Astrotheology

[Matt Haase]

 Each of these, except for the first (narrative theology), is making
 presuppositions about the substantive content of the text. What I am saying
 is that the Gospels can be approached in much the same way as Nabil/Shoghi
 Effendi prepared Nabil's Narrative, i.e., not as modern scientific history
 but as a morality play or sacred history.


I see. That is how I described the 'Dawnbreakers' to my brother, once. I was
trying to explain it, and eventually said It's like a much longer version
of the Gospel of John. And we both knew what I meant somehow.


On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 6:42 PM, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 Matt Haase wrote:

 I never knew there was a name for that kind of interpretation. I partly
 agree/disagree with that way of interpreting scriptures. On the one hand, I
 am not a literalist and I don't believe in a physical paradise, hell, etc.
 But on the other hand, I can sympathize with fundamentalists who get
 concerned that if we interpret everything allegorically or mythically, we
 have nothing but 'well-meaning fiction'. I watched the film in question
 about 8 months ago, and I especially liked the part you have posted. It
 can't be denied that all of these similarities do exist between Horus,
 Mithras, Jesus, Dionysous, etc.


 Some writers have argued that Horus et al. are types of Christ (like
 Elijah was a type of John the Baptist). However, I don't personally find
 that kind of speculative or metaphysical theology to be appealing.

 There are clearly problems with astrotheology. Some writers who accept it
 also buy into an illuminati-type conspiracy theory. Others use it to
 justify their atheism, agnosticism, etc.

 Even so, much of mainstream Christian and Jewish theology, even among some
 conservatives, is moving in the direction of narrative theology. In Judaism,
 it is called postcritical theology; in liberal Christianity, it is
 postliberal theology; and in Christian evangelicalism it is emerging
 theology. Although coming from three different places, all three of these
 narrative theologies have recently been converging.

 Obviously, many fundamentalist and conservative evangelical Christians
 object to the allegorization of most of the biblical texts, but there is
 also a difference between narrative theology, fundamentalist theology, and
 metaphysical theology. To grossly simplify: Narrative theology, which is
 what I am referring to, is asking questions like, What story/history
 (mirror) is being presented by the writer? Fundamentalists ask, What
 propositional truths are contained in the text? Finally, metaphysicians
 ask, What kinds of inner or spiritual meanings can be deciphered from the
 text?

 Each of these, except for the first (narrative theology), is making
 presuppositions about the substantive content of the text. What I am saying
 is that the Gospels can be approached in much the same way as Nabil/Shoghi
 Effendi prepared Nabil's Narrative, i.e., not as modern scientific history
 but as a morality play or sacred history.

 --
 Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D.  *  http://www.markfoster.net
 ... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
 basic fault lines today are not between people with different
 beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
 element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
 a pretense of ceitude. — Peter L. Berger, sociologist





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Re: Hudson INstitute

[Matt Haase]

You can study a religion for fifty years and not learn the original language
of the scriptures it was written in. A lot of American Christian preachers
have done this. They just read and re-read the Bible in English, and get a
feel for what it is about. Not everyone goes into the academic aspect of
studying a religion.

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 2:35 PM, Richard H. Gravelly 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 - Original Message -
 From: Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Susan wrote:
 and so far as I know he
 doesn't know the original languages.

 That is rather odd for one who insists that he has studied the religion for
 forty yeears.

 Richard.









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Re: Views of the Supernatural

[Matt Haase]

*1. weak atheism: an absence of belief regarding gods and goddesses (as
among most Buddhists).*

*7. weak theism: a position which accepts the intervention of one or more
gods or goddesses, but which does not require theistic explanations of
everything, e.g., biological origins. This view is probably closest to my
own. Thus, I accept evolution, not theistic evolution.*

That seems to describe my current understanding of how the universe works.
I've been getting out of the habit of praying for something supernatural to
intervene in my life and other human affairs, and just be glad for the good
things that happen and try to cope with the bad things that happen, and work
to change things for the better. If those efforts are rewarded by positive
results, then that is fantastic. But if they are not, then at least I can
say I tried. I won't have to fight the urge to be angry at some god for not
fulfilling my life's mission, nor will I have to feel as if it is time to
get religious because someone threw me a bone. I do, however, accept the
proposition that sometimes supernatural occurrences do happen. But I don't
chalk it up to a theory in which a deity is on the particular 'side' of any
one group of people, and is working 'through' them for Its success in this
world. I guess my current way of viewing spirituality is one in which it is
possible for people to 'align' themselves to be in 'harmony' with the
universe, and that gives people a possibility (not a definite 'yes') to
attract what they want and need into their lives. It is apathetic toward
which 'god' is 'the right god', because every group of people thinks when
they pray to their god, their prayers are answered. So, how is only one
'god' true, when all people claim their prayers are being answered by
separate and conflicting ideologies? That is why I now think that it has
nothing to do with believing in the 'right god', but about aligning one's
self into harmony with the universeOr it's just a coincidence and the
atheists are right. :-)


On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 7:34 PM, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Dean Betts wrote:

 Do you think a Baha'i could hold any one of these views?



 Hi, Dean:

 I think that a Baha'i could, from different standpoints, hold to several of
 those views. For instance, as a social scientist, I adopt the position of
 strong agnosticism. If the existence of God is extended to include His
 kingdom (all things under His dominion), I could also see a type of
 panentheism being compatible with certain Baha'i texts. Then, mineral,
 vegetable, and animal spirits could perhaps be conceived as a kind of
 animism. Generally speaking, I think that, at least to me, weak theism is
 the position most compatible with certain explanations given in the Baha'i
 texts.

  Didn't you leave out montheism?



 Theism is basically a synonym for monotheism (unless monotheism is being
 contrasted with polytheism, ditheism, etc.).

 --
 Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D.  *  http://www.markfoster.net
 ... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
 basic fault lines today are not between people with different
 beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
 element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
 a pretense of certitude. — Peter L. Berger, sociologist




 --
 Regards, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D.  *  http://www.markfoster.net
 ... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The
 basic fault lines today are not between people with different
 beliefs but between people who hold these beliefs with an
 element of uncertainty and people who hold these beliefs with
 a pretense of certitude. — Peter L. Berger, sociologist




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Re: peaking of realiy and meaning ang geometry

[Matt Haase]

Hmmm, that *is* very interesting. Do you think it possibly reflects the
current trends in Baha'i-thought among American communities. I remember
reading one pamphlet that described Baha'u'llah as the 'Heavenly Father',
which is exclusively referred to G-d in the Old Testament. I digress,
though, because that is not the theme of this thread.

On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 9:54 PM, Benjamin La Framboise 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

   Hey, John...

 I don't know if you noticed this before, and you can pass the info on to
 whomever it matters, but there is a discrepancy between the two drawings; on
 the 'original' drawing, the grades in the spiritual kingdom, which are
 infinite in series and progression, at their highest attainable point, touch
 the unknowable, but the finite NEVER becomes the infinite.  In the new
 version, the finite becomes the infinite.  A rather important distinction,
 don't you think?

 Yours,

 Ben

 On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 6:16 PM, John Bromberek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 At 04:53 PM 8/5/2008, I wrote:
 I have a copy that I got somewhere back in 1971, but it didn't
 have any attribution other than that of having been printed by
 Kurtis Kelsey...

   I'll have to take that back.  I see, now, that the attribution is within
 the written introduction to the explanation.  So, the copy I have is also
 attributed to Lua Getsinger.

   The version I have is that scanned by Robert Stauffer, the prettier
 version at the second listed URL was redrawn by Duane Troxel.

   The letter connected to the graphic, written by the Research Dept. (on
 the Web page) casts some doubt on authenticity of the graphic - as far as
 having originated with 'Abdu'l-Baha.

 John B.





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Re: Heaven

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
IMO, the Baha'i Faith doesn't teach this. A lot of people's opinions on what
the Baha'i Faith says, says the Baha'i Faith teaches this. They often use
the reference where 'Abdu'l-Baha says that every kingdom has its own
'spirit', while humanity has a 'rational soul.' Some people jump on this and
say Animals don't have souls!



On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 11:34 PM, David Friedman 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 It is upsetting to me that animals do not go to heaven.  It is difficult to
 see heaven as that wonderful if I don't get to see the pets I've had.  Can
 anyone help me on this?

 Regards,
 David

 --

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Re: Baha'i quiz book

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Why don't you just fool around with it, write a rough draft or two, submit
the idea to some publishers to see what they think, and then do what you
want with the idea.

peace

On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 5:40 AM, David Friedman 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 I am involved in quizzing and a few days ago I had the idea of writing a
 Baha'i quiz book.  I imagine I could do a good job but I'm doubtful as to
 whether there would be the market.  Obviously it would only be for Baha'i
 book stores but I don't know if a publisher would think there would be much
 interest.  What do you think?

 Regards,
 David

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Re: Non-association with covenant-breakers

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
How many people do you know who hang out with random toddlers? :-)



On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 10:16 AM, David Friedman 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Dear Susan,

  I presume you mean the children of Covenant breakers? Baha'is are
  asked to avoid them as well.

 What about toddlers?

 Regards,
 David


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Re: Prayer and mental illnesses/disorders

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
In my view, a religious person can both pray and find a scientific remedy
for their mental ailments. But, if I were forced to bet, I would choose
science over the power of prayer. But that's just me.

On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 1:45 AM, Mark A. Foster ow...@markfoster.netwrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 David Friedman wrote:

 I brought this issue up some time back. If I'm not mistaken, it was agreed
 that mental illnesses/disorders can be cured through prayer. Everything in
 my experience has been that prayer doesn't work for this. I've got an
 anxiety disorder and I gave up praying for it a long time ago. It's
 difficult to imagine the chemical balance in my brain magically correcting
 itself and me becoming a medical miracle just through prayer. Does anyone
 know of any Baha'is who have managed to cure themselves through prayer? If
 anyone here has managed to do so, please say a prayer for me. If God didn't
 want to answer my prayers then maybe He'll listen to someone else.

 Hi, David:

 IMO, there are two issues involved here which are often confused.
 Certainly, God can, if He wills, cure or remedy any condition. Prayer is one
 means of asking for His assistance. However, God's grace is not the same as
 positive thinking. No matter how strongly I may believe God will do
 something, there is no guarantee that He will act according to my wishes.

 In Christian Science, in all, or most, of the New Thought churches (Unity,
 Religious Science, Divine Science, etc.), and in the word of faith
 movement within pentecostalism, strong belief and God's actions are regarded
 as one and the same. That is no accident, since both New Thought and the
 word of faith movement were, through Emma Curtis Hopkins and others,
 significantly influenced by Christian Science.

 There is developing evidence that anxiety disorders, along with many of the
 other conditions categorized in both the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual
 of the American Psychiatric Association and the World Health Organization's
 International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health
 Problems, have significant neurological causation. As an autistic activist
 and self-advocate myself, I frequently find myself in the position of having
 to explain this data.

 --
 Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * 25 domains: www.markfoster.net SED:
 www.neurelitism.com
 ... the modern challenge is how to live with uncertainty. The basic fault
 lines today are not between people with different beliefs but between people
 who hold these beliefs with an element of uncertainty and people who hold
 these beliefs with a pretense of certitude. — Peter L. Berger, sociologist


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Re: illegality of Bahai organizational activities in Iran

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Shahram,

Nothing you have written thus far has been proven with any evidence. You
have just made claims, b ut have not provided sources to prove their
validity. Which Baha'is killed by the government were 'corrupt', for
example? Why were they 'corrupt'? Why is it 'disobedient' to the government
to create make-shift 'universities' that don't provide any certification
recognized by the government whatsoever?

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Re: “Violations of the Rights of our Baha’i Coun trymen”

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
It seems like more people are paying attention to the recent happenings than
in 2005 and 2006.

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 6:18 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Thanks, Ahang.

 I see a very well-balanced article appeared on a news site for the
 United Arab Emirates regarding the Baha'is in Iran:

 http://www.thenational.ae/article/20090223/FOREIGN/667464121/1011/NEWS

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Re: Iranian Authorities Destroy Sufi Holy Site In Isfahan

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
The more I learn about religious governments and the oppression they impose
upon people, the more I am becoming a secularist who also believes in God.
The two positions might seem contradictory, but not to me at this time.
That's not to say that secular governments can not be oppressive, however.

On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 3:55 PM, firestorm firest...@myway.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 gilberto
  :-)
  i offer that the House is the Authorised elucidator and coo of behaviours
 of the corporate body that has accepted that the ground has been transferred
 to the Rightful Owner by Covenant and Contract with the Owner's Agent,
 Baha'u'llah, and that the Agent in Writing left the House as local agent.
  that the House is warranted in Writing to be such agent; unlike,
 frinstance, the Church, holy, catholic and apostolic, which claims such
 authority unwarranted.

 i mostly return to ur initial post and note
 :there is some wisdom is incorrectly approximated. there is a lot
 of wisdom :in thinking about the
 issue in a different sort of way.
  susan offers an approach: competing claims to authority.
  i offer the view that such competition within proper bounds is
 healthy; but that the reality in the instance you so kindly brought forth is
 boundary violation.
  the House does not claim to be able to tell the iranian government whether
 a Baha'i or sufi shrine deserves better roads, night lights, or a nearby
 kfc. the iranian govt's positoon appears to be that lawful conduct motivated
 by ground of the heart is impermissible on earth controlled by the
 mullahs.
  the issue then is by what warrant do the mullahs lay claim to authority
 over ground?


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Re: Ya-Ali'u'l-Allah

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Peace be unto you,

To get even more literal, the word 'Ali means exalted, lofty, etc. So it
could also mean Oh Exalted, Lofty one of God. But in the context of where
this phrase comes from, I agree with Jamshid that it is probably in
reference to the actual person of 'Ali.



On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 9:54 AM, Larry Marquardt
lmarq...@rochester.rr.comwrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Dear Friends,

 Can someone please tell me the English translation of Ya-Ali'u'l-Allah?

 Thank you,
 Larry
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Re: Authenticity

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I can't speak for the guardian, but I think the Qur'an was preserved much
more than the Bible. There were many memorizers during the time of the
prophet, and this kept the original wording intact. It was common for people
in that culture to memorize long strands of words, so the people who were
especially good at it were really, really, good at it. They began to write
it down in a script on papyrus, animal hides, peoples bodies, and then it
was compiled into the surahs (chapters) before it was all placed in a single
book. But the text is the same. The Bible went through many more
transitions, and thus the chances of error are larger. That's just my take
on it.


On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 1:14 AM, Dean Betts fdbe...@mindspring.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Why does Shoghi Effendi assert that the Qur'an is more authentic than the
 Bible?


 ... the Qur'án, which book is more authentic than the Bible, including both
 the New and Old Testaments. The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this
 respect not to be compared with the Qur'án...

  (Shoghi Effendi, Directives from the Guardian, p. 12)



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Re: Protocol?

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
David,

I have written the Universal House of Justice, to ask why certain people
were disenrolled from the Baha'i community, and the answer was effectively
we can't provide exact information due to the privacy of the individual
involved. I think that is the best answer a person can receive, because as
Don said it could have been for entirely different reasons than what a given
person might *think*, and the *real *reason may be way too personal for the
UHJ to be running around and telling everyone about it. We may think it was
because of this or that, but it may be something extremely private.



On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 .  Does being disenrolled take away the right to
  privacy?


 Dear David,

 In the case of previous disenrollments the institutions have stated
 that the publicity these persons gave to those disenrollments took
 away their right to privacy.

 warmest, Susan

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Re: Protocol?

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
could it mean that it is a private matter between the House and an
individual and nobody else's anywhere on the face of the earth?

This is what I'm thinking. I mean, the impetus to make the decision is in
the hands of the Universal House of Justice. And if it is not volunteering
much information, conjecturing with each other that it may have been 'this'
or 'that', or because he/she wrote 'this' as a certain internet posting, or
said 'that' at a gathering once, is really just gossiping about another
human being as far as I can see.

On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 1:04 PM, firestorm firest...@myway.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 david,
  :This must mean that the House would be...
 must??
  really?
  could it mean that it is a private matter between the House and an
 individual and nobody else's anywhere on the face of the earth?
  could it mean that, as eer so often in the last 1.8 million years of
 using fire to make life easier people use other  peoples' private matters to
 pursue their own agendas??
  could it be that the Blessed Beauty put para 19 into the Aqdas for a
 Reason?
  other than various forms of yeast, the only must i can think of is that
 people do the right thing or not, as they see.


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Re: Door to door

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
In some neighborhoods, people like visitors coming over and talking to them.
Their neighbors stop by to spend some time with them, and then they leave.
In other neighborhoods, people are more insular. They don't like people
coming over to talk to them, and the neighbors usually keep to themselves.
The point I am trying to make is that in some places, showing up to
someone's door isn't seen as a slight against humanity as it is in other
places. In my experience, where I come from, every one locks their doors
whenever the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons patrol the neighbor to talk
about their faith to people.

But I know some Baha'is who declared in the 1970's, and said they used to go
door-to-door all the time in the southern states of the U.S., and that
resulted in many declarations into the Baha'i Faith. Some times, people in
the houses would take the initiative to talk to *them*, while they were
walking down the street and asked *them* to come to *their* house. Sometimes
what is inappropriate at one time, becomes appropriate at another.

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Re: What was the point?

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Perhaps this story was illustrating a shift in consciousness in how the
people viewed revelation. Instead of it solely being this idea that God
possesses a human being to say what God wants in a trance-like state,
perhaps there is a human element to it as well. An ability to tap into the
God-consciousness if you will. And maybe he wrote too much while in this
state, snapped out of it, and was like woahthat's way too much, and
pitched it. For example, he could have written instructions in those tablets
on how to achieve physical immortality, use your mind power to control
everything around you, etc.


On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 4:20 AM, Vaughn Sheline vshel...@tfb.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv

 Dear David,



 Perhaps now that these Writings were brought into being by the Supreme
 Manifestation, future Manifestations will be able to quote from them.
 Indeed, perhaps the primary intended audience is the future Manifestations,
 or the people in future Dispensations.



 Just a thought.



 Best regards,

 --- Vaughn





 After His return to Baghdad, the words of Bahá'u'lláh were revealed in
 great profusion. They were uttered in the presence of some of the believers
 but for the most part were not recorded. Nabil-i-A'zam, the immortal
 chronicler of this Dispensation, has written that Bahá'u'lláh revealed the
 equivalent of the Qur'án within the space of a single day and night, and
 that He continued in this way for two whole years after His return from
 Kurdistan.



 In addition, many Tablets were revealed which were either written in
 Bahá'u'lláh's own hand, or dictated to His amanuensis, Mirza Aqa Jan. But a
 great portion of the papers on which they were inscribed, comprising
 hundreds of thousands of verses, were wiped clean with water and then thrown
 into the river at the direction of Bahá'u'lláh, Who asserted: 'None is to be
 found at this time worthy to hear these melodies'.



 (Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Baha'u'llah v 1, p. 69)







 *From:* bounce-459043-5...@list.jccc.edu [mailto:
 bounce-459043-5...@list.jccc.edu] *On Behalf Of *David Friedman
 *Sent:* Wednesday, September 16, 2009 12:17 AM
 *To:* Baha'i Studies
 *Subject:* What was the point?



 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Baha'is are familiar with the story of how Baha'u'llah had quite a bit of
 what He revealed thrown into the river as humanity wasn't ready for it.
 Since God knew that humanity wasn't ready for it all along, why did He
 reveal it in the first place?  So that we'd have an interesting story
 recorded for posterity?  Couldn't He have just had Baha'u'llah say something
 at some point along the lines of Jesus' I have many things to say to you,
 but you cannot bear them now?  I thought it was part of progressive
 revelation that God reveals things suited to the capacity of the people.
 This story doesn't sit well with me, because it makes it appear like God
 made a mistake.

 Regards,
 David
  --

 Download the new Windows Live Looking for a place to manage all your
 online stuff? http://download.live.com
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Re: Islam's Discouragement of Celibacy

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
But marriage is about compromise. If the guy was fine by living his life
from fasting and praying all day, then that's great. But if he has a wife,
and her needs aren't being met, she has the right to complain.




On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 There are very similar stories in the Jewish Midrash literature.

 On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 1:15 PM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 
  No, I was comparing Islamic Arabia to secular America. The whole hadith's
  story seem a lil absurd to me, not the theory behind it. Muhammad (the
 Glory
  of God rest upon him) makes sense.The story is absurd, even though the
 point
  being made makes sense. It seems more like a parable than something that
  actually happened to me. No, I am not advocating sexless marriages, it's
  just something that happens over time. It's a fact of life, not something
 to
  complain about though. People marry people for love and spending their
 lives
  toghter. It makes sex licit, but that is more of a side issue rather than
  the central theme of marriage.
  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
  I'm really not sure what your point is. All the things you mention are
  pretty exceptional. Are you advocating for sexless marriages? Are you
  saying they are normal and healthy? Are you saying that the Bahai
  attitude towards sex and marriage is fundamentally different?
 
  On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 1:31 PM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 
 
  Oh, I checked wikipedia for stats. It's some part a cultural issue.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexless_marriage
 
 
  Sexless marriages frequently develop over time gradually from marriages
  that
  once involved more frequent sex. The following are possible causes:
 
  Marriage solely done for legal purposes, tax benefits or acquiring
  resident
  status (for example, in USA a spouse is entitled to Green Card if
 married
  to
  an American citizen or a permanent resident)
  Different work schedules/busy lives, making sex less of a priority than
  other events.
  Adultery can cause the partner having the affair to slow or stop sex
 with
  their partner.
  Sexual addiction or Pornography addiction can cause the addicted partner
  to
  not have sex with their regular partner.
  Sexual aversion or 'a low level of sexual desire' including a lack of
  sexual
  vitality due to age, past trauma, partners' incompatible sexual
  orientation
  or, simply, one of the spouses losing sexual desire towards his or her
  companion.
  Sexual dysfunction or difficulty during any stage of the sexual act,
  including severe vaginismus or erectile dysfunction
  Lack of sensation, desire or ability to achieve orgasm resulting as side
  effects from use or abuse of medication or illegal drugs.
  Asexuality or excessive masturbation.
  Mutually agreed sexless marriages, due to religious principles,
 avoidance
  of
  sexually transmitted diseases, a platonic basis for the relationship or
  avoiding conception.
  Post-pregnancy issues and hormonal imbalances. These can be temporary or
  permanent in nature
  Illness of one or both partners that affects physical or psychological
  sexuality.
  Power imbalance. One partner refuses to have sex with their spouse for
  personal reasons, such as to gain/maintain psychological control.
  Combinations of the above. Sexual desire, for example, can be closely
 tied
  to sexual difficulties.
 
  I have bold some of the more common ones. It's just that sexless
 marriages
  aren't to be that much of a big deal in America. Countries with
  anti-marital
  rape laws tend to have cultures that view that spouses have veto rights
  with
  regards to sex. One spouse could theoretically veto their spouse into
  involuntary celibacy.
 
  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
  I would assume that the hadith is accurate. I think the exact version
  my come from Shia sources but there are similar texts in sunni
  collections. I don't think the hadith says anything about ALL women,
  but just gives a glimpse of the family life of Uthman ibn Madh'oon's
  wife. Also, if the husband unilaterally made the relationship celibate
  I don't think it makes the wife particularly lustful if she
  complains. She has a right to complain if some of her basic
  expectations in the relationship aren't being met.
 
  Also, if you look at other texts one can also find examples which
  could easily framed as examples of lustful men. I think if you look
  at the texts as a whole, the picture is more nuanced and balanced.
 
  On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:06 PM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com
 wrote:
  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 
 
  Is that Hadith historically accurate? It does suppose an all women are
  lustful cultural stereotype about women. Is it a Sunni or Shia hadith?
  Lot's of people have celibate marriages without problems. I come from
  America (part of the 

Re: Enoch

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Metatron is a fascinating figure in Jewish/Christian and possibly Islamic
Lore. In the Kabbalah he is the voice of God.

The Talmud http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud relates that Elisha ben
Abuyah http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisha_ben_Abuyah, also called *Acher*,
(אחר, other, as he became an
apostatehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostate),
entered Paradise and saw Metatron sitting down (an action that in heaven is
permitted only to God himself). Elishah ben Abuyah therefore looked to
Metatron as a deity and said heretically, There are indeed two powers in
heaven! The rabbis explain that Metatron was allowed to sit because of his
function as the Heavenly Scribe, writing down the deeds of Israel
(Babylonian Talmud, Hagiga 15a). (Wikipedia)

... the Talmud states, it was proved to Elisha that Metatron could not be a
second deity by the fact that Metatron received 60 'strokes with fiery rods'
to demonstrate that Metatron was not a god, but an angel, and could be
punished. (Wikipedia)

However, from the standpoint of Elisha ben Abuyah, Metatron appeared to be a
god.




On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv


  I was looking books of the Old Testament and its Apocrypha, and stumbled
 across Enoch and his three books. It's interesting to note that they could
 be authentic in that there are no traces of Moses or the Mosaic law in any
 of them. This is really important in the Jews always have in their other
 scriptures said or implied how any given prophet was dependent on Moses via
 the law.

 Enoch became Metatron. Metatron  is super-human angelic being that speak
 for God and intercedes for people and even fallen angels. The Metatron
 tradition in Judaism could be thier memories of a Manifestation other than
 Adam (Adam Kadmon) or Moses. Metatron is sometimes indentified as the lesser
 LORD in Jewish texts. He also has 202 alternate names.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enoch

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Book_of_Enoch

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3_Enoch

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metatron

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alternate_names_for_Metatron


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Re: Jinn

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
In Islamic lore, Jinn can be good or bad entities. There is a verse in the
Qur'an that says some of the Jinn became Muslims upon hearing the recitation
of the Qur'an at a person's home. But they are often depicted as
troublemaking spirits in other Islamic literature. As far as I understand
it, Iblis is not depicted as a fallen angel in the Qur'an, but as a Jinn.
Angels don't have freewill in traditional Islamic theology. They can only do
what they are commanded to do, which is why good humans are said to have a
higher station than angels due to their free will to make a choice between
good and bad. The Qur'an says that when God told the concourse in Paradise
to bow to His creation, Adam, everyone bowed except for Iblis. He felt that
he was superior to Adam because he (Iblis) was made from fire, while Adam
was made from clay and dirt. Jinn are said to be made from smokeless fire.
While I don't believe these stories are meant to be taken literally, I do
believe in the existence of Angels and Jinn as independent from human
beings.





On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 3:03 PM, Hasan Elías hasanel...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv

   Thanks Susan,

 They are alive people here, or ded people (souls) in the other world:
 Sanctified people =  angels
 Very smart people = jinns?

 How to know if one is jinn or a normal person?


 El *lun, 5/31/10, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com* escribió:


 De: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com
 Asunto: Re: Jinn
 A: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
 Fecha: lunes, 31 de mayo de 2010, 11:16 am

  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
  Can some explain a bit more? We talk about angels, jinns, Satan, i.e.,
 metaphysical figures, but, at the same time, we don't believe they exist. As
 a bahá'í of 2nd generation since child I don't believe in this beings.
 Angels are sanctified human souls, no?

 Yes, but sanctified souls exist don't they?

 If I understand Abdu'l-Baha correctly Jinn may or may not be
 sanctified. They usually aren't.

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Re: The only quality God doesn't has?

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
In my perspective, humility is one of God's most important attributes.
Jealousy, Rage, and Hatred are all human qualities that are distortions of
some of God's qualities. But humility and humbleness are pure qualities that
belong to God. Islamic traditions state that God imposed a law upon *Himself
* that His mercy must be greater than His wrath. Now if you are the ultimate
Supreme Consciousness of the entire Universe  thatyou yourself created, and
can literally *think* things into existence, then isn't the epitome of
humility to impose a law upon yourself when you can do anything you want
with no one to answer to?



On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Tim Nolan tnola...@yahoo.com wrote:

  The Baha'i Studies Listserv


  If I may jump in here.

 I suggest it's the wrong question to ask whether God has a particuar
 quality, unless
 a Manifestation of God refers to it.  God is not a person who has or does
 not have
 qualities.
 We can never understand God.  I have reached the conclusion that it's not
 useful to talk
 about God, except in very general terms, because anything we say about God
 is
 a product of our limited minds and is therefore  inadequate and misleading.

 The best we can do is learn about the Manifestations, Who give us a faint
 glimmering
 of what God is like.
 Tim


 All good art is about something deeper than it admits.
 --Roger Ebert


  --
 *From:* Hasan Elías hasanel...@yahoo.com
 *To:* Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
 *Sent:* Tue, June 15, 2010 9:39:32 AM
 *Subject:* Re: The only quality God doesn't has?

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv


  Hi Susan,

 So, God has it or not?


 thnx

  --
 *De:* Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com
 *Para:* Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
 *Enviado:* lun, junio 14, 2010 10:10:01 AM
 *Asunto:* Re: The only quality God doesn't has?

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
  We know God possesss all qualities.
  What about humility?
 
  This could be the only quality He doesn't possess?

 Dear Hasan,

 As you know the attributes of God really apply to His Manifestations
 and not His Essence which is unknowable. And His Manifestations *do*
 possess humility. In this connection you might want to read my article
 Justice, Fairness and the Meekness of God.

 http://jfm.susanmaneck.com/

 warmest, Susan

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Re: Untrustworthy/Disobedient?

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
For one thing, the Dawnbreakers is sort of a hagiographical account of the
mission of the Bab'. Not everything written in it is meant to be an exact,
unbiased account of everything that went down in the Babi Movement.
Secondly, even if that story was exactly true I don't see it as that big of
a deal. I see a child who couldn't stay silent in school despite promising
his uncle that he wouldn't talk. I don't think it implies that the Bab'
could not be trusted later in life because he once disobeyed his uncle when
he was six or seven years old.

On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 6:25 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
  Okay, I don't get it.  The Bab was a sinless Manifestation and was always
 a Manifestation.

 That doesn't mean He wasn't also a child. The Manifestation has two
 natures, one divine and the other human. The Bab's human nature was
 clearly that of an impetuous child.

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Re: Ablutions

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
But there are also passages in the Baha'i Writings, if taken at their face
value, could be construed to imply that the world was separated between
believers and unbelievers.

*Know thou for a certainty that whoso disbelieveth in God is neither
trustworthy nor truthful. This, indeed, is the truth, the undoubted
truth.*- Baha'u'llah

But taken as a whole, the Baha'i Faith doesn't teach that. I believe the
same is true for Islam. It would make no sense to me if Islam taught that
all non-Muslims were ritually impure, while at the same time allowing
marriage between Muslims and the People of the Book. Marriage is the most
intimate of relationships.

*Now all mankind is considered to be from one single root, including
disbelievers and people of other races, nations, cultures, and religions.*
**
I have found this teaching also present in Islam; *O Mankind! Behold, We
have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes so
that you might (affectionately) come to know one another. Verily, the most
honored among you, in the Sight of Allah, is the one who lives most upright.
Behold, Allah is Knower, Aware. (Qur'an 49:13)*

Muhammad Asad commented on this verse, stating *We have created every one
of you out of a father and a mother (Zamakhshari, Razi, Baydawi) - implying
that this equality of biological origin is reflected in the equality of the
human dignity common to all.] and have made you into nations and tribes, so
that you might come to know one another. [I.e., know that all belong to one
human family, without any inherent superiority of one over another
(Zamakhshari). This connects with the exhortation, in the preceding two
verses, to respect and safeguard each other's dignity. In other words, men's
evolution into nations and tribes is meant to foster rather than to
diminish their mutual desire to understand and appreciate the essential
human oneness underlying their outward differentiations; and,
correspondingly, all racial, national or tribal prejudice (asabiyyah) is
condemned - implicitly in the Quran, and most explicitly by the Prophet (see
second half of note on 28:15). In addition, speaking of people's boasting of
their national or tribal past, the Prophet said: Behold, God has removed
from you the arrogance of pagan ignorance (jahiliyyah) with its boast of
ancestral glories. Man is but a God-conscious believer or an unfortunate
sinner. All people are children of Adam, and Adam was created out of dust.
(Fragment of a hadith quoted by Tirmidhi and Abu Daud, on the authority of
Abu Hurayrah.)] Verily, the noblest of you in the sight of God is the one
who is most deeply conscious of Him. Behold, God is all-knowing, all-aware.
*
**

**
**




On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 12:25 PM, haj...@yahoo.com haj...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv

But finally, I'm still kind of confused by where the question is
 coming from. I understand that you might not call it ritual purityor
 ritual impurity. But if both the Bahai faith and Islam have ablutions
 which need to be performed before the prayers that would make them equally
 superstitious to use your conept.. I mean, in the Bahai case, even if you
 just took a bath, and then choose to pray, you would still do the ablutions
 again, right? That seems to be more of a ritual concept, no? 

 Hi Gilberto, I think you are confusing different issues.  Lets consider the
 concept of ritual impurity.

 I think the difference is that in Islam and especially in the Qur'an,
 non-Muslims, the disbelievers, and considered to be a distinct group of
 people separate from the Muslims (the believers) who are pure.  The Islamic
 concept of ritual impurity is an extension of this foundational idea.
  When, if the Muslims are correct, the world becomes a Muslim world, the
 world passes from a state of general impurity of disbelief to a state of
 spiritual purity full of believers.

 The Baha'i idea of ablutions and provisions about cleanliness are
 foundationally different from the Islamic idea because the core concept that
 humanity is separated into believers and disbelievers has been
 eliminated.  Now all mankind is considered to be from one single root,
 including disbelievers and people of other races, nations, cultures, and
 religions.

 This is because Baha'u'llah, the Glory of Allah, has already appeared on
 earth.  The Glory of Allah is not going to appear in the future, it already
 appeared in the past.

 The Muslim concept that mankind is still separated into believers vs.
 disbelievers (and *consequently* into different cultures, races,
 nationalities, etc. etc.) is because Islam is still waiting for the Day of
 Judgment.

 Best Regards.

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Re: Ablutions

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Just as you might interpret a lot of things from your own Baha'i Faith
symbolically and metaphorically, perhaps you may also want to give Islam the
same kind of treatment and see what comes from it? I understand that you are
upset by what some of the Mullahs have said about the Baha'is, but I don't
think Islam as a world religion with a billion adherents should be subjected
to what some clerics say. The Qur'an itself allows for interfaith marriages
with the people of the Book. If all non-Muslims are regarded as ritually
unclean, then how is it that a Muslim is permitted to have the most
intimate of all relationships with such a person? *And among His signs is
this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may
dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your
hearts. Verily in that are signs for those who reflect. (Qur'an 30:21) *How
can you dwell in tranquility with someone you regard is ritually impure,
and put love and mercy between your hearts? It just doesn't make any sense
to me to say that a Muslim can't be friends or even so far as physically
touch a non-Muslim because they are ritually impure, but yet it's okay to go
a thousand steps further and marry them.

Best Regards



On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 5:41 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
iskandar@gmail.comwrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv


 Based on this verse (Quran 9:28) and other hadith, etc. there is decree
 after decree, even in this 21st century, from Muslim clerics that we Baha'is
 are najas, that Muslims should not shake hands with us, marry us, eat with
 us, invite us to their homes, accept invitations for food at Baha'i houses,
 etc., etc.

  يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلَا
 يَقْرَبُوا الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ هَٰذَا ۚ وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ
 عَيْلَةً فَسَوْفَ يُغْنِيكُمُ اللَّهُ مِنْ فَضْلِهِ إِنْ شَاءَ ۚ إِنَّ
 اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ {28}
 *[Shakir 9:28]* O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean,
 so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you
 fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please;
 surely Allah is Knowing Wise.
 *[Pickthal 9:28]* O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let
 them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If
 ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve
 you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
 *[Yusufali 9:28]* O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let
 them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye
 fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty,
 for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
 *[Pooya/Ali Commentary 9:28]*

 The infidels are unclean both literally and metaphorically. It refers to
 their physical uncleanliness as well as to their impure hearts and souls.
 According to the holy Imams anything wet touched by an idolater should not
 be used unless properly purified.

 When the unclean pagans were debarred from entering the sacred precinct of
 Ka-bah, the Muslims began to worry about the profits from trade and
 commerce, but Allah assured them that their welfare and economic position
 will not suffer. This actually happened.





  On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 2:44 PM, Gilberto Simpson 
 gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote:

  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 In terms of books/references  I tend to consult, none of them treat
 *people* that way. As far as I am concerned, najas only comes up in
 terms of defining clean surface and clean clothing in terms of
 prayer (which in a general sort of way is similar to the Bahai). Also,
 you aren't supposed to eat najas. But the idea that certain people are
 supposed to be shunned or treated as untouchable because they are
 non-Muslim is definitely not a part of Islam. Matt definitely cited
 several relevant texts on this point...

 On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 10:12 AM,  iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 
 
 
   Dear Gilberto:
 
  The concept of najas (untouchable because something is considered
 ritually impure) does not exist in the Baha'i Faith. My understanding is
 that in Islam an infidel (kAAfir, or mushrik) is considered najas, or
 semen is considered najas. This najas concept (ritual impurity) is
 non-existent in the Baha'i religion. Otherwise, Baha'is are commanded to be
 quintessences of refinement and exquisite cleanliness. The term used is
 litAAfat which is rather difficult to translate as one single word in
 English.
 
  Best regards,
  Iskandar
 
 
 
 
  Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com
  Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 00:59:37
   To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu
  Subject: Re: Ablutions
 
  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
   On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 11:32 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  The Baha'i Studies 

Re: Ablutions

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
No thanks. I don't follow those scholars in terms of theology. I study
religions on my own, and come to my own conclusions what I think about them.


On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 7:47 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
iskandar@gmail.comwrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 I think it would be a great idea if Gilberto or Matt ask Sistani or Fazel
 Lankarani about Baha'is specifically, if they consider us Baha'is as najas
 infidels apostates or kAAfir or mushrik.

 Dear Matt and Gilberto, will you both kindly do ask this question in
 separate letters from the Shiah Ayatollahs Lankarani, Khamenei, and Sistani
 and from other leading Sunni mufti scholars?


 Best regards

 Iskandar





 Sent from my iPod


 On Jun 23, 2010, at 2:20 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:

  The Baha'i Studies Listserv

 You mean the same Imams whom Bahaullah called

  the manifestations of the power of God, and the
 sources of His authority, and the repositories of His knowledge, and
 the daysprings of His commandments.?


 As I said, I don't know how authentic those ahadith are.

 I'm not saying that people aren't being mistreated. I'm primarily
 questioning how the mistreatment is being framed. You want to blame
 Islam or Muslims as Muslims.


 I believe the issue was najas, not Islam or Muslims.

 You are missing the point. I'm not saying that it is just Jews. If
 anything, it is just Persians (of a certain era). Maybe you should
 blame the Safavids and their legacy instead of Islam.


 I think the fact that the Safavids forcibly converted Iran to Shi'ism
 was a problem, but the intolerance towards religious minorities was
 introduced by the 'ulama brought in from Iraq, so it isn't just an
 Iranian thing.


 I think you are mischaracterizing what the ulama are saying. And
 they don't speak with one voice. Grand Ayatolla Sistani and Grand
 Ayatollah Fazel Lankarani both explicitly hold that Jews and
 Christians are ritually clean. And Sistani is basically the highest
 ranking 12-er cleric in Iraq.


 If they say Baha'is are not najas I'll be impressed.

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Re: Ablutions

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I'm concerned that you are so eager to lump all Muslims together as bad
people who hate Baha'is, when you are talking to two simultaneously who
don't. Do you want Muslims to hate you or something?



On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 8:01 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
iskandar@gmail.comwrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Well, I seriously doubt if the Quran verse 9:28 was meant to be understood
 spiritually back then at that time when it was revealed in early 7th century
 because it is reassuring the early Muslims not to worry about the loss of
 trade and business with the Meccans. This is manifestly obvious. But it
 would be nice if it is understood and read metaphorically nowadays by all
 Muslims regarding Baha'is or regarding folks who don't believe in God, or
 people who don't believe in any religion, or Buddhists or Hindus, etc. Alas,
 that's not the case.



 Best regards
 Iskandar






 Sent from my iPod

 On Jun 23, 2010, at 7:04 AM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Susan, I don't think you understood what I said.

 On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 1:57 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv

 I would definitely read that ayat spiritually. (And it is my

 understanding that that is the typical Hanafi view at least).


 I would too. The issue here was clearly profaning a holy site.


 No. The verse in question is:
 [Yusufali 9:28] O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let
 them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And
 if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of
 His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

 And what I'm saying is that in the Hanafi view (note that the Hanafis
 are the most populous interpretation of Sunni Islam... the Ottomans
 and the Mughals were Hanafi), in the above verse, Pagans are being
 described as unclean in a spiritual sense. NOT in a physical sense and
 not in a sense that relates to laws about najas (ritual impurity) and
 should not be used to justify a social system where non-Muslims have
 cooties.


 Personally  Muslims do not offend me by not letting me go to Mecca any
 more than Zoroastrians offend me by not letting me into their Fire
 Temples. However, when a Jew or a Zoroastrian can't go out when it is
 raining for fear he will rub up against a Muslim and pollute them,
 that is another question.


 Sure. And that particular interpretation was limited to a particular
 time and a particular place in a particular culture. And other Muslims
 in most other places in most other times interpreted those rules
 differently. So that suggest, instead of blaming all Muslims
 everywhere you should focus on what factors in Safavid society led
 them to set up a system which discriminated against people in those
 particular ways.

  (And do

 you think that Bahais count as Idolaters?)


 The question really is how do Muslims regard us? As you know, this
 verse came to be applied to all non-Muslims even the Ahl-i Kitab.


 The Saudis apply the law that way but there are definitely ulema which
 don't interpret the Quran that way and 1) maintain the distinction
 between Pagans and People of the Book (Ahl al-Kitab) and 2) would even
 say it is halal for straight up Pagans to visit as long as they don't
 stay.(this is mentioned in one of the links I provided elsewhere in
 this thread)

  So if you want to shake

 hands I'm not going to treat you like najas. And if you serve some
 good vegetarian food or seafood (which is what I eat for myself) then
 I'd be happy to partake.


 As would most Muslims living in the US. It is only in predominantly
 Muslim countries that we are likely to face discrimination.


 In terms of the particular religious question under discussion (ritual
 impurity) this is an interpretation limited primarily to Iran, not the
 Muslim world as a whole.

  Marriage is a tricky question. Officially,

 neither Christianity nor Judaism really approve of intermarriage.

 So

 Islam is actually more inclusive by allowing marriage with People of
 the Book. (And then the question is whether Bahais count under that
 category)


 As you know Christianity is pretty broad. Even Catholics are allowed
 to intermarry now. It is mostly only evangelicals disapprove,


 It isn't that the rules change. If you look up a Catechism of the
 Catholic Church and look at what is says about marriage, marriage is
 still a sacrament and so  it can still only happen between baptized
 Christians. And Catholics are a majority of Christians worldwide. In
 any case, the Bible still says Be not yoked with unbelievers.

 Judaism is more
 tolerant of women intermarrying than men. Islam is just the opposite.
 Men can intermarry but not women.


 I think you are mischaracterizing this. Not to marry non-Jews (of
 either sex) is one of the 613 commandments of the Torah. And even if
 it wasn't a violation of what is seen as a divine commandment, it 

Re: Ablutions

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Yes, I respect most religions, even some of the nature-based quasi Pagan
ones.




On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:26 PM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv


 I am asking you, Gilberto, or Mat Haas.


 Best regards,

 Iskandar



 Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

 -Original Message-
 From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com
  Sender: bounce-510909-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Wed, 23 Jun 2010
 22:24:40
 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu
 Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
 Subject: Re: Ablutions

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Who are you asking?

 On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:20 PM,  iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 
 
 
  Do you have respect for Islam the same way that you have respect for
 Christianity, Buddhism and the Baha'i Faith?
 
  Do you have respect for Buddhism? Or, for the Baha'i Faith?
 
 
  Best regards,
 
  Iskandar
 
 
 
  Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com
  Sender: bounce-510904-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Wed, 23 Jun 2010
 22:15:29
  To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu
  Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
  Subject: Re: Ablutions
 
  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
  I think that what a Bahai means by respect Islam, honor the Prophet
  and regard the Quran as the word of God is very very different from
  what a Muslim means by respect Islam, honor the Prophet and regard
  the Quran as the word of God.
 
  On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:07 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
  I think part of it is what Susan said. Some people have actually
  experienced real persecution at the hands of Muslims and it has an
  effect. I think another part of it is built into Bahai theology and if
  there were nothing wrong with Islam and Muslims then there wouldn't be
  anything special about being Bahai.
 
  Gilberto,
 
  It is *because* I am a Baha'i that I respect Islam, honor the Prophet
  and regard the Qu'ran as the Word of God. I would certainly not have
  done those things I had remained a Christian.
 
  warmest, Susan
 
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Re: Time dependence of Revelation

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Yes I am seriously honest. I have read most of the Tanakh (Old Testament),
and yes there are obvious contradictions in it. That doesn't bother me.
Respect is not about what you believe about other ideologies, but how you
treat people who adhere to those ideologies. I disagree with some aspects of
Hinduism, but I would never insult the people who practice that tradition.
The same goes for everyone else. The words that you quoted me were actually
a response to someone who was portraying the majority of Muslims as if they
all hated Baha'is/non-Muslims and believed they were ritually impure, and
had nothing to do with theology so to speak.

There is actually a copy of the Qur'an handwritten by Imam 'Ali, the cousin
of the Prophet Muhammad, in a museum somewhere in the Middle-East, and 'Ali
was killed some 12-15 years after the Prophet died. So it was not long
before the Qur'an was put into writing.

Baha'u'llah lived in a culture of writing, whereas Muhammad didn't. Herego,
just because Baha'u'llah hand wrote his own revelations and stamped them
with his approval does not necessitate that the early Muslims practice of
memorization is any less accurate. Memorization was the book keeping of
that civilization. Also, some of the Bab's and Baha'u'llah's revelations
were lost, stolen, or thrown into the sea so we literally don't know all
that they wrote. That is not to make a point as to who is superior/inferior
or anything like that.



On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 6:30 AM, hajmog haj...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv


   Yes, I respect most religions, even some of the nature-based quasi
 Pagan ones 

 Are you seriously honest?  You respect Christianity but think their book
 has errors in it?  Is that really respectful?  What that means is that you
 believe in another Christianity that doesn't even exist (nobody follows
 the Christianity that you have in mind), one that had a book revealed to
 Jesus similar to how a book was revealed to Muhammad?

 Now you should think about what Bahais mean by respecting Christianity.

 And you should think about what Bahais means by revelation and it's
 time-dependent qualities.  Even how revelation place is dependent on the
 capacity of mankind.

 For example, Moses and Jesus didn't directly dictate their teachings to
 scribes but they were written down times afterward, and Muhammad didn't
 actually write anything down himself, but people wrote them down after
 memorizing them.

 But in this day, Bab and Bahaullah actually wrote their revelations
 themselves or directly dictated them to secretaries and then stamped them
 after review.

 The nature of revelation itself is time-dependent, let alone the contents
 of revelation






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Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Isn't it better to build bridges and build on common ground than emphasize
the differences?

That was the whole point that I was trying to make to you, as well.




On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 12:43 AM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv



 Well, you know guys, this whole thing is rather funny: I pointed out that
 there definitely is a major difference about this najas issue in that
 whereas the Quran 9:28 clearly and explicitly says some folks are najas,
 this whole concept just does not exist in the Baha'I Faith at all. Then we
 moved to more common ground, which I think is more positive and more
 fruitful. Now, the emphasis is on differences, again. Do I really need to
 remind you that you and I belong to two different religions? You think that
 I had forgotten that? Isn't it better to build bridges and build on common
 ground than emphasize the differences? Of course the Baha'i Faith has laws
 and commandments that are different from Islam. Heck, there are very real
 and very major and irreconcilable differences between Shi`ah and Sunni.
 Shall I recount them for you? I prefer not to.

 No, we Baha'is do not go out of our way to invite a non-Baha'i to our
 19-day feast. It is quite uninteresting for a non-Baha'i, but if you as a
 non-Baha'i want to attend it, you are welcome and you will not be barred. I
 cannot get the directive for you right now from my cell phone; but if you
 really need it, I can get it for you. Or, Susan can get it for you. I'd love
 to go on pilgrimage to Mecca as a non-Muslim but the Saudi government won't
 permit that. And I suspect they will not listen to Gilberto or Matt telling
 them otherwise. Do I begrudge or hate Muslims for not letting me visit the
 Kaabah? No, of course not.


 Regarding the issue of Seal of the Prophets, my conclusion is that
 Baha'u'llah's reading and interpretation of this whole issue of finality is
 the most profound understanding of the term. We Baha'is certainly do believe
 in Islam and in the Quran in a manner that is totally unacceptable by a
 Christian or a Jew or a Zoroastrian person. Of course we have a different
 hermeneutic, and a different reading of the Quran. There is a major and
 irreconcilable difference between the Shi`ah understanding of people in
 authority in Quran 4:59 and the Sunni understanding of the verse. For a
 Shi`ah the first 3 Caliphs were simply illegitimate and usurpers of `Ali's
 right to be the infallible successor to the Prophet and the interpreter of
 the Quran.

 I prefer to dwell on commonalities and de-emphasize the differences. But I
 think I'm going to stop posting any more comments.


 Best regards,

 Iskandar





 Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

 -Original Message-
 From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com
 Sender: bounce-511021-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Thu, 24 Jun 2010
 12:56:44
 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu
 Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
 Subject: Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:43 AM,  iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 
 
  Much thanks, dear Gilberto for your comments.
 
  Baha'is believe that Muhammad is the last Prophet in the same sense that
 Jesus, Moses, and Baha'u'llah are the last Prophet. And the first Prophet.
 It's all explained in Baha'u'llah's Book of Certitude and in Khazeh's
 paper.

 I've read Khazeh's paper and parts of the Book of Certitude. I know
 what you are saying. I don't want to argue about it. All I'm saying is
 that this is definitely not the ordinary meaning of the word last.
 And it isn't what Muslims mean by last. And when I'm feeling
 uncharitable I would just say it is dishonest. But otherwise I think
 it is a sincerely believed paradox.

  Baha'is believe that Jesus was the Son of God in the same sense that
 Moses, Muhammad, you, and me are Sons of God. The uniqueness of Christ was
 not that He was fatherless and conceived of the Holy Spirit. The uniqueness
 of Jesus is because He was the Word, the Logos, the Primal Will; it's
 because He was a lamp from which the unique light of haqiqat muhammadiyyah
 was shining. In other words, Baha'is believe that He was as unique as Moses,
 Muhammad, Baha'u'llah, Adam, Noah, Buddha, Zoroaster, and the Bab.

 I personally think that the concept of Haqiqat Muhammadiyyah / Logos
 is a powerful tool for reconciling *some* claims about the status of
 Jesus (as) and Muhammad (as). (e.g. Arian Christians and Muslims). But
 at the end of the day, Bahais read the Quran in ways which are
 radically different enough for me to say they don't believe it. (Most
 obviously when it comes to rejecting its commandments).


  Regarding the 19-day feast: it is open to non-Baha'is. During the
 consultation period of the 19-day feast, if a vote is going to be taken,
 then the votes of Baha'is are counted, naturally.

 

Re: Sectarianism in Islam

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
*Moorish Science Temple of America*, *Druze*, *Alevi* and *Yazidis* don't
claim to be Muslims, but claim a distinct identity apart from Islam.






On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 10:42 AM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv


  http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/Islam_tree.jpg That's
 a summary chart.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_schools_and_branches This is the
 article it came from.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghulat
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zind%C4%ABq

 Currently, Muslims consider Baha'is to be Zindiq, but even if they didn't,
 it would probably only mean a raise from Zindiq status to Ghulat status.

 Scholars list the Baha'i Faith as a related faith along Sikhism (along with
 its Khalsa), Babism (Daheshism and Azaliism), etc. There are also Five
 Percents and Nuwaubu. None of the above here claim to be Muslims.

 There are heterodoxy who claim to be Muslims, but are rejected by other
 Muslims: Ahmadiyya, Madhavi, Zikri, Nation of Islam, Moorish Science Temple
 of America, Druze, Yazdanism, Alevi, Alawi, Ghurabiyya, Bazighiyya,
 Ya'furiyya, Dhammiya, Yazidi, etc.

 There are also reformist movements: Salfi, Islamism, Liberalism, and
 Qur'anism.


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Re: Seer Status

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I think one of the figures of the Baha'i Faith also said that Rumi has a
unique station in that he is not a Prophet per se, but that he was
special.



On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 3:31 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
  Abdu'l-Baha referred to Joseph Smith, Junior as being this.

 I think Joseph Smith is referred to as a 'seer' in one of the letters
 written on behalf of the Guardian, not by 'Abdu'l-Baha.

  What does it mean for a person to have seer status?

 I don't think the term 'seer' necessarily denotes a particular status.

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Re: Seal of the Prophets

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I have also come to this conclusion of what the Baha'i stance is on this
issue from reading/studying the Baha'i Writings. I think the same can be
said of Islam. The Qur'an is very emphatic at times about the equality of
all the prophets with statements like we make no distinction between any of
them, yet it also says we have exalted some above others. The latter
phrase has been used for centuries to claim that Muhammad (pbuh) was the
chief or greatest of all the prophets who came before him. But there are
also Hadiths which have the prophet scolding some of his followers for
claiming that he was better than Moses, and he replied that he wasn't even
better than Jonah. So, the essence vs. manifestation argument is a good
way at solving the problem of who is better than who.




On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Khazeh aqu...@dsl.pipex.com wrote:

  The Baha'i Studies Listserv



 Shahram Rohani [shahramroh...@yahoo.com]
 Wrote:
 .**What we, Persian language people, understand from the text of
 Ishraaqaat-- and I think that Ishraq Khavari has also confirmed it -- is
 that both Prophethood  Messengership are sealed by Prophet Muhammad.And Bab
 and Bahá'u'lláh are Manifestations of God; that is quite different from
 those previous stations.
 Thanks/Rohani**

 Shahram e aziz
 You are still trying to look for distinctions of *Essence** =Dhaat/Zaat,
 rather than differences of language, difference of stages and progressions
 and tones.
 The Prophet of God said *** Manifold are Our relationships with God.  At
 one time, We are He Himself, and He is We Ourself. At another He is that He
 is, and We are that We are.
 This statement [lanaa ma'allah h.aalaat...] is quoted in a special and
 elegant commentary by the late Imam Khomaini copy enclosed
  (لنا مع الله حالات هو فيها نحن ونحن هو ، وهو هو ونحن نحن)

 so we have to consider that there are many relationships, many languages.
 But the essence of ALL the Manifestations is one.

 so with this background allow me to continue offering some thoughts

 In the h.adith of Islam the Imams say and I quote Kulayni


 http://www.alseraj.net/maktaba/kotob/hadith/kafi1/html/ara/books/al-kafi-1/165.html

 hadeethunaa s.a’bun mustas.ab

 our discourse is abstruse, exceedingly abstruse.

 So nearly all of the utterances of the Manifestations of God should not be
 interpreted summarily, instantly, without thought, without respect, or
 meditation.

 It is true, absolutely true that Baha’u’llah refers to the significance and
 station of the Prophet Muhammad and says that **by His Coming intahat
 in-nubuwwat war-risaalat* i.e. by the Prophet’s Coming Prophethood and
 Messengership came to *intihaa* to Its culmination. To its end.

 But here, and I promise you God forbid I am not an interpreter here it
 means that Prophethood and Messengership reached and attained its *intihaa*
 Its culmination in a Preparatory sense, in a Preliminary sense to the day of
 Bahá’u’lláh. And this is simply because that which is reached and attained
 before culminates in the next important event.

 The nine month gestation of the foetus culminates [YANTAHEE] in the birth
 of a baby, but childhood culminates in adolescence, and adolescence in
 adulthood etc.

 Essentially there is one reality that is why Baha’is do not arrogate powers
 and capabilities that are not theirs.

 In these references Baha’u’llah says that the *SEAL* CULMINATED in the day
 of **, “The Day when mankind shall stand before the Lord of the Throne
 above the exalted Seat**

 But remember we do not arrogate any powers

 It is for this reason, and this reason only, that those who have recognized
 the Light of God in this age, claim no finality for the Revelation with
 which they stand identified, nor arrogate to the Faith they have embraced
 powers and attributes intrinsically superior to, or essentially different
 from, those which have characterized any of the religious systems that
 preceded it. (Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 59) This
 is very important

 And in Bukhari it says

 **Narrated Jarir bin Abdullah:

 We were in the company of the Prophet on a

 Fourteenth night (of the lunar month), and he

 Looked at the (full) moon and said, You will see

 Your Lord as you see this moon, and you will

 have no trouble in looking at Him.

 (Hadith, Bukhari Vol 6)

 The Shin of God:

 *Translation of Al-Qur’an 068:042:*
 “(Remember) the Day when *the Shin* shall be laid bare (i.e. the Day of
 Resurrection) and they shall be called to prostrate (to God), but they
 (hypocrites) shall not be able to do so,”

 Yawma yukshafu AAan s*a*qin wayudAAawna il*a* a*l*ssujoodi fal*a* yasta*t*
 eeAAoon*a*

 Muhammad Taqi 
 Usmanihttp://www.amazon.com/gp/product/9695640001?ie=UTF8tag=islamawakened-20linkCode=as2camp=1789creative=9325creativeASIN=9695640001
  On
 the Day when the Shin will be exposed, and they will be called upon to
 prostrate themselves, they will not be able to.

 *Translation of Sahih 

Re: Prayer Times in Islam

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I would also like to point out that not every Islamic practice comes
directly from the Qur'an. Some were enumerated or slightly modified by the
Prophet, and became part of the Sunna. So the Qur'an may indeed only
mention three prayers throughout the day, but the Prophet may have made some
minor modifications for specific instances, that then became part of the
regular Sunna. The Shi'a still pray three times a day instead of five, but
they perform the extra rakats for two of the Salats, which amount to the
same amount as if they prayed five times a day.




On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 8:57 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 A fairly common interpretation is that salat al-wusta refers to asr.


 Also 73:20 is pretty clearly a reference to Tahajjud (night prayer)
 which arguably includes witr. Also, the verse which Sen brought up
 seems to include maghrib (as a prayer time), no?


 On 8/5/10, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
  The ones mentioned in Hadith:
  Fajr
  Dhuhr
  Asr
  Maghrib
  Isha'a
  Witr
  Tahajjud
 
  The ones mentioned in Quran:
  Fajr
  Al-Wusta
  Isha'a
 
  Note: Dhur, Asr, and Maghrib are mentioned but not in connection with
  prayer.
 
  Question: If Al-Wusta is mentioned in the Quran, why don't Muslims pray
 it?
 
 
 
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Re: Qur'an Translations

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I like Muhammad Asad's translation, because it has a lot of footnotes and he
goes into the deep root meanings of a lot of the words. I also like Ahmed
Ali's translation because he doesn't accept the interpretation that the
Qur'an prescribes husbands to hit their wives (even 'lightly' as Yusuf Ali
put it, or so it doesn't leave a mark.) Most of the Saudi translations are
useless, unless you want to be indoctrinated to hate Jews and Christians. It
doesn't make them good just because they're free. I have been looking for a
Sufi translation of the Qur'an, but haven't been able to find one. I would
think there would be some out there. Perhaps they don't want their secrets
out in the open or something.




On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:46 AM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv


  http://www.meforum.org/717/assessing-english-translations-of-the-quran

 This article divides tranlations into:
 Early Translations
 20th Century Classics
 Saudi-Endorsed Translations
 Bucking The Saudi Authority
 Sectarian Translations
 Falling Short

 So what translations are you familiar with?

 Examples:

 http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Quran-Translation-Commentary/dp/0940368854/ref=sr_1_1?s=booksie=UTF8qid=1281364753sr=1-1

 http://www.amazon.com/Commentary-Holy-Quran-S-V-Ahmed/dp/9644381734/ref=sr_1_2?s=booksie=UTF8qid=1281364753sr=1-2

 http://www.amazon.com/Koran-Yasin-T-al-Jibouri/dp/1879402394/ref=sr_1_3?s=booksie=UTF8qid=1281364753sr=1-3

 http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Koran-Interpreted-S-V-Ahmed/dp/B000B8K7LI/ref=sr_1_5?s=booksie=UTF8qid=1281364753sr=1-5

 http://www.amazon.com/Quran-English-Translation-Mahdi-Puya/dp/B0032DENTQ/ref=sr_1_6?s=booksie=UTF8qid=1281364753sr=1-6

 Previeable:

 http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Quran-Translation-Commentary/dp/0940368854/ref=sr_1_1?s=booksie=UTF8qid=1281364753sr=1-1

 http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Koran-Interpreted-S-V-Ahmed/dp/B000B8K7LI/ref=sr_1_5?s=booksie=UTF8qid=1281364753sr=1-5

 Other books by S. V. Mir Ahmed Ali:

 http://www.amazon.com/Husain-S-V-Mir-Ahmed-Ali/dp/B003FQ38WS/ref=sr_1_4?s=booksie=UTF8qid=1281364753sr=1-4

 http://www.amazon.com/Saving-Monotheism-Sands-Karbala-Ahmed/dp/094036803X/ref=sr_1_7?s=booksie=UTF8qid=1281364753sr=1-7


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Re: I'jaz al-Quran (Ininmitability of the Quran)

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
It's basically a challenge from God to those who reject it. Some of the
polytheist Arabs took to saying that Muhammad (pbuh) was like the
soothsayers who would go into trances and reveal prophecies in poetic prose,
for a nominal fee. The Qur'an tells people to learn from those who don't ask
for a fee, but who say our recompense is with God. The polytheist Arabs
also claimed that a Persian man was actually revealing the Qur'an, and
teaching the verses to Muhammad. While the Qur'an has similarities to other
forms of Arabic poetry, it claims to be unique because it is the speech of
God Himself. The Qur'an is unique because the Qur'an is unique. I don't know
how else to explain it, to myself, or to others.

Peace



On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 1:31 PM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv


  In several places God, Gabriel, Muhammad, etc. challenge people to bring
 a book, surahs, a surah, verses, lines, etc. like it.

 What are the rules of the challenge?

 Qur'an alones say it's a hidden 19 code in it.

 Some muslims say social impact over time.

 Some muslims say not rhyming, not bahir, not poetry, not prose, not
 ordinary speach, not sootsaying, etc... in Arabic.

 Several people have historically taken up the challenge. So who really
 verifies if something is or is not like the Quran?


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Re: Sura Hafd and Sura Khal'

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
He was born in Medina when it was still called Yathrib. He was also a Hafez
(one who memorized the Qur'an.)



On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 2:02 PM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv


  There were several codices of the Quran before Uthman standarized one.
 (Mecca, Medina, Damascus, Basra, and Kufa. He standardized Medina) Ubbay ibn
 Ka'b's codex seems to have included these two. Which city was he from?


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Re: I'jaz al-Quran (Ininmitability of the Quran)

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
If you believe a book is the very speech of God, of course you are going to
say that no other book written is like it, even if it has similarities in
style, prose and language to other works. The uniqueness of the Book is who
the Author is, not whether it has a similar line to some Arab poem or the
like.

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 12:18 PM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

  The Baha'i Studies Listserv




 Yes, but that's what not what most Muslims believe. They say no book ever
 written is like it. The prbolem with that is that the Quran compres itself
 to other scriptures like the Sefer Yetzirah, Torah, Psalms, Gospels, etc.
 They also say since noone will ever bring any more surahs, Islam is final.

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 
  In several places God, Gabriel, Muhammad, etc. challenge people to bring
 a
  book, surahs, a surah, verses, lines, etc. like it.

 There aren't any rules. The point is that the Qur'an is immitable.
 What makes the Qur'an the Word of God is that when we hear it our
 hearts our moved in such a way that we hear God speak.

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Re: Astral Projection Lucid dreaming

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I have astral projected, and I can assure you that it is real. But I don't
expect anyone to believe it unless it has happened to them. I agree with the
Baha'i stance on discouraging people from developing these abilities, which
is possible to do. It sounds like a lot of fun, but there is a whole other
world out there; and if you don't know how to protect yourself from the
unseen, you could seriously get hurt (both spiritually and physically.) I
know Baha'is don't believe in demons and jinn, but I look at crossing into
the spirit world as if one is going to a foreign country. A lot of people
are going to know you are a foreigner, and some people will take advantage
of your confusion and guide you into an alley and rob you or something.



On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 1:07 AM, Minhaj Khan mak8...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 That's what bothers me. I find no reference to it anywhere. I asked
 some Baha'is and they assure me that psychic powers only imply healing
 abilities and such. Astral projection seems very natural - just
 meditate and have an out-of-body experience.

 On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 1:33 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
  Is there any information in the faith on astral projections or lucid
 dreaming?
 
  Abdu'l-Baha gives deja vu dreaming as proof of the immoratality of the
  soul, but I don't know of anything on astral projection except that it
  might be one of the psychic powers we are discouraged from developing.
 
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Re: Astral Projection Lucid dreaming

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Well, a lot of times the Baha'i writings will say something like meditate
upon this, which even in English implies to think or reflect, rather
than what we normally associate with eastern styled meditation. Zikr is more
of the trance inducing styles of meditation, like Mantras in the Indian
tradition. Repeating any word thousands of times will give that effect, but
it is the belief that these words are holy and have a special potency to
them. As for Merkabah, I found this paragraph from Wikipedia interesting:

*Ma’asei Merkavah, the first distinctly mystical movement in Jewish
history, appeared in the late Hellenistic period, after the end of the **Second
Temple* https://mail.google.com/wiki/Second_Temple* period following the
destruction of the Second Temple in 70 C.E. It is a form of
pre-**Kabbalah*https://mail.google.com/wiki/Kabbalah
* **Jewish* https://mail.google.com/wiki/Judaism*
**mysticism*https://mail.google.com/wiki/Mysticism
*, that teaches both of the possibility of making a sublime journey to **God
* https://mail.google.com/wiki/God* and of the ability of man to draw down
divine powers to earth; it seems to be an esoteric movement that grew out of
the priestly mysticism already evident in the **Dead Sea
Scrolls*https://mail.google.com/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls
* and some apocalyptic writings (see the studies by **Rachel
Elior*https://mail.google.com/wiki/Rachel_Elior
*).[8]https://mail.google.com/mail/html/compose/static_files/blank_quirks.html#cite_note-7
Hekhalot writings are the literary artifacts of the Maasei Merkavah.*
**
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkabah

I think all forms of meditation are connected in some way, personally.




On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
  Fikr? I thought the word for meditation was Muraqaba and the associate
  practice of Dhikr.

 The times when I've gone to the original the word has always been
 fikr. Perhaps Iskandar or Khazeh can tell us whether the word muraqaba
 ever appears. Dhikr appears a lot, however.

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Re: Lataif-as-Sitta (The Subtleties)

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Nafs rougly means the animalistic nature of humans in its most basic
state. But it can rise to different levels of perfection through
self-discipline, supplication, etc.

From Wikipedia:

*In the eponymous **Sura* https://mail.google.com/wiki/Sura* of the
Qur’an, the prophet **Yusef* https://mail.google.com/wiki/Yusef* says Yet
I claim not that my nafs was innocent: Verily the nafs of man incites to
evil.[Qur'an https://mail.google.com/wiki/Qur%27an
12:53http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/012.qmt.html#012.053
] Here he is explaining the circumstances in which he came to be falsely
imprisoned for the supposed seduction of
**Zuleika*https://mail.google.com/wiki/Zuleika_(legendary)
*.*

*Islam emphasises the importance of fighting nafs because the prophet **
Muhammad* https://mail.google.com/wiki/Muhammad* said after returning from
a war, We now return from the small struggle (**Jihad
Asghar*https://mail.google.com/wiki/Jihad#Lesser_Jihad_.28Jihad_bil_Saif.29
*) to the big struggle (**Jihad
Akbar*https://mail.google.com/wiki/Jihad#Greater_Jihad
*). His companions asked, Oh **prophet*https://mail.google.com/wiki/Prophet
* of **God* https://mail.google.com/wiki/God*, what is the big struggle?
He replied, The struggle against
nafs.[6]https://mail.google.com/mail/html/compose/static_files/blank_quirks.html#cite_note-Kabbani-5
*

*The Qur'an enjoins the faithful to hinder the nafs from
lust,[Qur'anhttps://mail.google.com/wiki/Qur%27an
 79:40 http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/079.qmt.html#079.040] and another
**hadith* https://mail.google.com/wiki/Hadith* warns that the worst enemy
you have is [the nafs] between your
sides.[7]https://mail.google.com/mail/html/compose/static_files/blank_quirks.html#cite_note-Nicholson_1914-6
**Rumi* https://mail.google.com/wiki/Rumi* warns of the nafs in its guise
of religious hypocrisy, saying the nafs has a
**rosary*https://mail.google.com/wiki/Rosary
* and a **Koran* https://mail.google.com/wiki/Koran* in its right hand,
and a **scimitar* https://mail.google.com/wiki/Scimitar* and dagger in the
sleeve.[8]https://mail.google.com/mail/html/compose/static_files/blank_quirks.html#cite_note-Nicholson_1990-7
*

*Animal imagery is often used to describe the nafs. A popular image is a
donkey or unruly horse that must be trained and broken so that eventually it
will bear its rider to the
goal.[9]https://mail.google.com/mail/html/compose/static_files/blank_quirks.html#cite_note-Nicholson_1911-8
**Rumi* https://mail.google.com/wiki/Rumi* compares the nafs to a camel
which the hero **Majnun* https://mail.google.com/wiki/Majnun*,
representing the intellect (**'Aql* https://mail.google.com/wiki/%27Aql*),
strains to turn in the direction of the dwelling-place of his
beloved.[8]https://mail.google.com/mail/html/compose/static_files/blank_quirks.html#cite_note-Nicholson_1990-7
*

*The self-accusing nafs (nafs-i-lawwama)*

In Sura al-Qiyama https://mail.google.com/wiki/Qiyama the Qur'an mentions
the self-accusing *nafs*.[Qur'an https://mail.google.com/wiki/Qur%27an
75:2 http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/075.qmt.html#075.002] This is the
stage where the conscience https://mail.google.com/wiki/Conscience is
awakened and the self accuses one for listening to one’s ego. One repents
and asks for forgiveness
https://mail.google.com/wiki/Forgiveness.[10]https://mail.google.com/mail/html/compose/static_files/blank_quirks.html#cite_note-PathToSpiritualExcellence-9Here
the
*nafs* is inspired by your heart, sees the results of your actions, agrees
with your brain, sees your weaknesses, and aspires to perfection.
[edit https://mail.google.com/w/index.php?title=Nafsaction=editsection=4
] The *nafs* at peace (*nafs-i-mutma'inna*)

In Sura al-Fajr https://mail.google.com/wiki/Fajr the Qur'an mentions the
*nafs* at peace.[Qur'an https://mail.google.com/wiki/Qur%27an
89:27http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/089.qmt.html#089.027
] This is the ideal stage of ego for Sufis. On this level one is firm in
one’s faith and leaves bad manners
behind.[10]https://mail.google.com/mail/html/compose/static_files/blank_quirks.html#cite_note-PathToSpiritualExcellence-9The
soul becomes tranquil, at peace.
[10]https://mail.google.com/mail/html/compose/static_files/blank_quirks.html#cite_note-PathToSpiritualExcellence-9At
this stage Sufis have relieved themselves of all
materialism https://mail.google.com/wiki/Materialism and worldly problems
and are satisfied with the will of God.


On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv


  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lataif-e-sitta

 The Qur'an and Baha'i writings use the terms of these from time to time.

 Nafs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nafs
 Qalb http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qalb
 Ruh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruh
 Sirr
 Khafi
 Ahkfa
 Qalib

 How often are these terms used and in what contexts?

 The Nafs and Ruh have associated stages too.

 http://irfancolloquia.org/14/savi_sufi

 The paper is not 

Re: CB Claims

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Isn't there another group that takes a Shi'a stance, and claims that the
Guardian is in Occultation?




On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 9:11 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
  Seems to me that one of your articles should at least touch on the claim
  that various pretenders to the station of Guardian are legitimized thru'
  being adopted into the Aghsan.  This has become, the last 15 years, a
 more
  important argument, it appears to me, than the President of the
  International Council argument.

 Dear Don,

 The 'adoption' argument is peculiar to the Jensenites and not shared
 by the Remeyites as a whole.

 warmest, Susan

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Re: at-Taqwa (Godconciousness)

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I was just going to say that God-Consciousness sounded very Hindu to me,
but I'm not really surprised because I feel that Islam and Hinduism actually
have a lot of commonalities despite their very outward differences.




On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 5:12 AM, Sen  Sonja sen.so...@casema.nl wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqwa
  Sawm and Taqwa are associated. Is there a Baha'i reference to Taqwa?

 Indeed there is:

 In the fourth Ishraq (splendor) of the Ishraqat (Tablet of Splendors)
 We have mentioned: Every cause needeth a helper. In this Revelation
 the hosts which can render it victorious are the hosts of
 praiseworthy deeds and upright character. The leader and commander of
 these hosts hath ever been the fear of God (taqwa-ye allah), a fear
 that encompasseth all things, and reigneth over all things.

(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 26)

 By God! This people have never been, nor are they now, inclined to
 mischief. Their hearts are illumined with the light of the fear of
 God (nur-e taqwa), and adorned with the adornment of His love.
(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 122)

 Ye are the shepherds of mankind; liberate ye your flocks from the
 wolves of evil passions and desires, and adorn them with the ornament
 of the fear of God. (taqwa-ye allah
(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 29)

 it behooveth every fair-minded person to succor Him Whom the world
 hath cast away and the nations abandoned, and to lay hold on piety
 and righteousness (taqwa).
(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 35)


 The cities of knowledge and of understanding wept with such a weeping
 that the souls of the pious and of the God-fearing (ahl-e ... taqwa)
 were melted.
(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 72)


 God-consciousness is a good translation of the concept: it is a pity
 that it is so hard to fit elegantly into a sentence:
 the people of God-consciousness...
 the God-conscious ones
 The leader and commander of these hosts hath ever been God-
 consciousness...

 The last of these works for us, but probably would not have worked
 for the more biblically educated audience of Shoghi Effendi's day,
 who were used to fear of God and had not been familiarized with
 God-consciousness by the Hare Krishna movement

 Sen

 --
 --
 Sen McGlinn   http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com

 All is to be yielded up, save only the *remembrance* of God;
   all is to be dispraised, except His praise.
 Today, to this melody of the Company on high,
   the world will leap and dance:
  `Glory be to my Lord, the All-Glorious!'

 (Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha, p. 93)
 --
 --


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Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Not to mention they have been predicting a violent apocalypse for decades.
If they didn't have the word Baha'i in their name, I would have assumed
that they were just another American 'Christian' apocalyptic sect.



On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 11:38 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
  Actually CB material isn't all negative. There are alot of attempts of
  several groups to tie themselves into prophecies ie Bible, Apocrypha,
  Qur'an, Hadith, etc.

 Dear Stephen,

 The only CB group I know of that spends a lot of energy trying to tie
 themselves in with the above are the Jensenite groups, I would have to
 disagree with you about them not being 'negative.' Without any proof
 whatsoever they frequently accuse Ruhiyyih Khanum of having murdered
 the Guardian!

 warmest, Susan

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Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
*There's also at least one site that claims to speak for Jewish Bahais
and is, I think, probably a dirty tricks scheme by the Iranian
government's anti-bahai agency. It is not really intended to deceive
western Bahais I think; it exists so that the anti-bahai propaganda
in Persian can quote it as evidence of Bahai links to Israel.*
**
It's the old I create the source to prove you are evil, then use that
source to justify why I think you are evil trick. It's quite sickening.




On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 11:43 AM, Sen  Sonja sen.so...@casema.nl wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 The problem is not so much to avoid reading the sites, as to know
 what it is that you are reading, when people are trying to pass
 themselves off as something else.

 To make it doubly difficult, one of the groups (which may consist
 of one person with a bee in his bonnet) uses a photograph of the
 Bahai holy places on their sites, to give the impression that you are
 looking at their headquarters in Haifa.

 Clues to what's not what it seems:
 - references to the davidic kingship
 - claims to be or speak for the guardian
 - claims to be or speak for Hands of the Cause
 - names such as 'orthodox bahai'  / 'reformed bahai' / Bahais under
 the Provisions of the Covenant  (BUPC)
 - derogatory names for Bahais, such as Haifans or heterodox'
 etc...
 - conspiracy theories (Ruhiyyah Khanum murdered Shoghi Effendi; the
 Hand of the Cause staged a coup... ) and disaster predictions (the
 world will be struck by a meteor on such-and-such a date).

 There's also at least one site that claims to speak for Jewish Bahais
 and is, I think, probably a dirty tricks scheme by the Iranian
 government's anti-bahai agency. It is not really intended to deceive
 western Bahais I think; it exists so that the anti-bahai propaganda
 in Persian can quote it as evidence of Bahai links to Israel.

 Sen
 --
 --
 Sen McGlinn   http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com

 All is to be yielded up, save only the *remembrance* of God;
   all is to be dispraised, except His praise.
 Today, to this melody of the Company on high,
   the world will leap and dance:
  `Glory be to my Lord, the All-Glorious!'

 (Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha, p. 93)
 --
 --


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Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
It should take you a lot longer than a week to read most of his writings,
and more importantly, internalize them. This is your life, so I'm not
telling you what to do, but I would suggest to you to slow down. This
isn't a race.




On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 11:48 AM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

  The Baha'i Studies Listserv

  I'm currenty this week archively reading most of the writings of
 Abdu'l-Baha and comparing them to his Will  Testament.

  --
 *From:* Sen  Sonja sen.so...@casema.nl

 *To:* Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
 *Sent:* Tue, August 31, 2010 10:43:06 AM

 *Subject:* Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker
 sites

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
  The problem is not so much to avoid reading the sites, as to know
 what it is that you are reading, when people are trying to pass
 themselves off as something else.

 To make it doubly difficult, one of the groups (which may consist
 of one person with a bee in his bonnet) uses a photograph of the
 Bahai holy places on their sites, to give the impression that you are
 looking at their headquarters in Haifa.

 Clues to what's not what it seems:
 - references to the davidic kingship
 - claims to be or speak for the guardian
 - claims to be or speak for Hands of the Cause
 - names such as 'orthodox bahai'  / 'reformed bahai' / Bahais under
 the Provisions of the Covenant  (BUPC)
 - derogatory names for Bahais, such as Haifans or heterodox'
 etc...
 - conspiracy theories (Ruhiyyah Khanum murdered Shoghi Effendi; the
 Hand of the Cause staged a coup... ) and disaster predictions (the
 world will be struck by a meteor on such-and-such a date).

 There's also at least one site that claims to speak for Jewish Bahais
 and is, I think, probably a dirty tricks scheme by the Iranian
 government's anti-bahai agency. It is not really intended to deceive
 western Bahais I think; it exists so that the anti-bahai propaganda
 in Persian can quote it as evidence of Bahai links to Israel.

 Sen
 --
 --
 Sen McGlinn  http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com

 All is to be yielded up, save only the *remembrance* of God;
   all is to be dispraised, except His praise.
 Today, to this melody of the Company on high,
   the world will leap and dance:
   `Glory be to my Lord, the All-Glorious!'

 (Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha, p. 93)
 --
 --


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Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Actually, I don't think Mirza Ahmad Sohrab was officially declared a
covenant-breaker either. Shoghi Effendi said he was a great enemy towards
the faith, but I haven't been able to find a reference where he was declared
a covenant-breaker. Someone more versed in the history would know better
than I, though.



On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 12:04 PM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

  The Baha'i Studies Listserv

   Clues to what's not what it seems:

  - references to the davidic kingship
  - claims to be or speak for the guardian
  - claims to be or speak for Hands of the Cause
  - names such as 'orthodox bahai'  / 'reformed bahai' / Bahais under
  the Provisions of the Covenant  (BUPC)
  - derogatory names for Bahais, such as Haifans or heterodox'
  etc...
  - conspiracy theories (Ruhiyyah Khanum murdered Shoghi Effendi; the
  Hand of the Cause staged a coup... ) and disaster predictions (the
  world will be struck by a meteor on such-and-such a date).

 That is a pretty good list, though I should mention that the founder
 of the so-called Reformed Baha'is has never been officially declared a
 Covenant breaker. He was simply removed from the rolls after he
 threatened to sue any member of the Baha'i Institutions who attempted
 to contact him.

 Ruth White and Mirza Ahmad Sohrab were declared CB. He gets his ideas from
 them.

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Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
*Recently at a Study Circle a new believer expressed concern as to whether
Baha'is
might be persecuted now that we have a Muslim' as a president.*

I think it is concerning that the President has to ease the tension by
claiming that he's *not *a Muslim, which implies that there is somehow
something bad about being a Muslim. Like 'Muslim' is synonymous with 'evil',
'murderer', etc. I know that he doesn't think that.




On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 12:17 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
  Dee Hock is the founder and the former CEO of Visa International and has
 a
  very good book called, The Birth of the Chaotic Age.  He notes, The
  problem is never how to get new, innovative thoughts in your mind, but
 how
  to get the old ones out.
 
  Problem with CBing materials is that they leave a permanent imprint in
 our
  mind, bias our view and everything else we read is colored by that bias.
  This not just true about CBer materials, but any sort of negative or
 attack
  material.  For instance, if I read Obama is a smoker, the thought of
 him
  being a smoker (not that there's really anything wrong with being a
 smoker)
  lingers on and colors everything else I read or hear about Obama.

 Dear Ahang,

 More maliciously, think of how this crazy notion that Obama is not
 really a US citizen has caught hold, largely a result of the internet.
 The fact that his birth certificate has been widely published on the
 internet as well, does not change the effect that these accusations
 have had on a significant portion of the population. Recently at a
 Study Circle a new believer expressed concern as to whether Baha'is
 might be persecuted now that we have a Muslim' as a president. When I
 pointed out that Obama wasn't a Muslim, that he was a member of the
 United Church of Christ, she insisted, Why hasn't he produced his
 birth certificate. Offering to show her the birth certificate on the
 internet did nothing to change her mind.
 In cyberspace, the more things get repeated the more they get believed
 regardless of their merits.

 As for Obama's smoking I'm rather amused by the image of him sneaking
 an occasional cigarette on some porch of the White House hoping
 neither his wife or a reporter catches him.

 warmest, Susan

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Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Unitarian Universalism goes by the Congregationalist type of administration,
which means that the local congregation makes many of the administration
decisions of their community, even if they do have a head organization at
the top. They are more bottom-up than top-down. At the same time, they
accept anyone into their fold because it is not a *doctrinal* or *revelation
* based religion. One of the cool things about the UU church is that members
can form their own groups within the church, and hold meetings. Thus, you
can form a Unitarian Buddhist, Unitarian Zoroastrain, Unitarian Hindu, and
yes, even a Unitarian *Bahai* group. One of the perks of this is that these
groups can hold their meetings inside the UU church *free of charge*. I
don't want to be cynical, but I am thinking that at least part of the reason
why Eric Stetson is linking 'Unitarian Bahaism' with the Unitarian
Universalist Association, is because of the free office space so to speak.
Maybe that makes me wrong to assume what is another person's intentions.



On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 12:39 PM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

  The Baha'i Studies Listserv


  I thought those were actual Unitarian Universalists. Due to there being a
 website now, even if he created it, Unitarian Universalists could be
 becoming Unitarian Baha'is. They do have a Yahoo group.



 Unitarian Universalist do tend to view they Unitarian Universalism as their
 primary religion and whatever else as secondary.



 A talk on Unitarian Universalism would require its own topic.



 Back to Unitarian Baha'is they believe Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, Mirza
 Muhammad Ali.



 They believe that Abdu'l-Baha changing his succesor to Shoghi Effendi was
 superceding Baha'u'llah, that the religion is about Baha'u'llah and his
 writings, only Baha'u'llah's writings are sacred scripture, that no more
 anyrthing can be produced for another 1000 years atleast, etc.


 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
  Ruth White and Mirza Ahmad Sohrab and Zimmer Hermann (this one
 iffy?) were
  declared CB.

 Its Herman Zimmer, and yes he was declared a Covenant breaker.

 In regards to Ruth White and Herman Zimmer, Fred Glaysher has done
 more than steal their ideas. He set up bogus websites claiming to
 represent their long defunct organizations. He did that in regards to
 the Muhammad Ali as well. In so doing he could make it appear as
 though there are more divisions in the Baha'i community that currently
 exist. The fact is that neither Ruth White, Ahmad Sohrab, Herman
 Zimmer, or Muhammad Ali currently have any organization which follows
 them.


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Re: Conspiracy Thoeries and Recent New Events Align alot

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Conspiracies do exist in the world. There is evidence and proof to
demonstrate that, but there is a difference between a conspiracy *theory*,
and a *conspiracy* theory. The former is about searching for evidence and
actual facts about certain events and situations in order to find the truth,
and the latter is a *worldview *about how history itself works.
*Conspiracy*theories view the world as a binary state. There are
definite good guys and
definite bad guys. There is no gray area. There is a hidden Elite of evil
souls who want to globalize the world into a totalitarian dictatorship for
different reasons, depending on who is talking. For David Icke, they are
reptilian shapeshifters. For Alex Jones, they are Nazis and Kabbalists.
For William Cooper, they were socialists, ufos and New Agers. The
problem with *conspiracy* theories (the conspiracy theory of history
itself), is that the world isn't that simple. Sometimes things just happen,
and there was no hidden hand orchestrating it or causing it to happen.
Conspiracy theories are also fundamentalist in that they don't allow for any
kind of dissent. If you question someone like Alex Jone's or David Icke's
research, they will just accuse you of working for the Elites themselves,
and thus your opinion doesn't count.



On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_(conspiracy_theory)

 I remember president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was pointed out as in league with
 George Bush as being parts of an orchestrated plot to take over the world.
 But, the more I looked into it the more plausible it became.

 http://www.taroscopes.com/miscellanous-pages/weapons.html
 http://www.taroscopes.com/miscellanous-pages/weapons-additional.html

 Any one familiar with quotes of MA?

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Re: Conspiracy Thoeries and Recent New Events Align alot

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Dear Gilberto,

I used two types of categories; conspiracy *theories *(i.e. the study and
research of actual conspiracies, and theorizing how they took place), and *
conspiracy* theories (i.e. seeing a conspiracy in every event in the history
of humanity, as being a plot by a group of few people/aliens/reptilians to
step-by-step take over the world.) I am not critical of the *theorizing* of
actual conspiracies that have and do take place, or the events that very
possibly could have been conspiracies. But I am critical of the notion that
everything which happens in this world, is being orchestrated by some hidden
hands of 30 people or something. Sometimes chaos just happens, sometimes
terrorists do just blow up a vegetable market for their own agenda (and not
the agenda of the Illuminati, Reptilians, etc.) There are different types of
conspiracy researchers, and I don't want the real theorists (Bill Weinberg,
Peter Werby, etc) to have a bad name because they are lumped in with the
same crowd that says Reptiles who live on the Moon are reciting Mantras all
day to make humanity feel stressed out and aggressive toward each other. The
two types of researchers live in a completely different world, in my view.

Salam Alaykum

Conspiracies do exist in the world. There is evidence and proof
to demonstrate that





On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 12:40 AM, Gilberto Simpson 
gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 I think it is weird when people try to dismiss conspiracy theories as
 a category. Every claim is either true or false on its own merits. The
 US government really has performed medical experiments on Blacks and
 Latinos. The CIA really has worked to overthrow different
 democratically elected governments (Mossadeq, Arbenz, Allende). There
 really are organizations  (like Skull and Bones, the Carlyle Group,
 etc.) which manage to bring together powerful people and
 decision-makers in ways which are not completely public or accountable
 (or straight-up secret). The RAND corporation really has been
 advocating that the the US support some kinds of Islam over others in
 the world.

 I agree with you that simplistic binary thinking is a problem but I'm
 not sure I would say it is a defining property of conspiracy theories.
 On the one hand you definitely have folks who think that the conflict
 between Democrats and Republicans is a fight between good and evil. On
 the other hand, there is probably somebody out there who views world
 events as the product of a complex, multi-front rivalry between the
 Reptillians, the Illuminati, the Catholic Church, the Circle of the
 Black Thorn, the Masons, the Priory of Sion, the Mafia, the
 Bildebergs, the Rothschilds,  the CIA and the elders of Zion. Also you
 have folks like Chomsky who don't invoke colorful villains with
 complex competing agendas but basically look at the world with a class
 perspective and basically look at US foreign policy as being
 manipulated by wealthy business interests.




 On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Matt Haase matthewhaa...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 
  Conspiracies do exist in the world. There is evidence and proof to
  demonstrate that, but there is a difference between a conspiracy theory,
 and
  a conspiracy theory. The former is about searching for evidence and
 actual
  facts about certain events and situations in order to find the truth, and
  the latter is a worldview about how history itself works. Conspiracy
  theories view the world as a binary state. There are definite good guys
 and
  definite bad guys. There is no gray area. There is a hidden Elite of evil
  souls who want to globalize the world into a totalitarian dictatorship
 for
  different reasons, depending on who is talking. For David Icke, they are
  reptilian shapeshifters. For Alex Jones, they are Nazis and Kabbalists.
  For William Cooper, they were socialists, ufos and New Agers. The
  problem with conspiracy theories (the conspiracy theory of history
 itself),
  is that the world isn't that simple. Sometimes things just happen, and
 there
  was no hidden hand orchestrating it or causing it to happen. Conspiracy
  theories are also fundamentalist in that they don't allow for any kind of
  dissent. If you question someone like Alex Jone's or David Icke's
 research,
  they will just accuse you of working for the Elites themselves, and
 thus
  your opinion doesn't count.
 
 
  On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com
 wrote:
 
  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_(conspiracy_theory)
 
  I remember president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was pointed out as in league
 with
  George Bush as being parts of an orchestrated plot to take over the
 world.
  But, the more I looked into it the more plausible it became.
 
  http://www.taroscopes.com/miscellanous-pages/weapons.html
  http://www.taroscopes.com/miscellanous-pages/weapons-additional.html

Re: 9/11 revisited

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
As far as the government actually physically setting up bombs to go off
right before planes they sent to be flown into the towers, no there isn't
any real good evidence for that at all. But there are some interesting
things about the tragedy. In 2000, a document released by the rightwing
Project for the New American Century talked its role in the Middle-East, and
strenghthing American prescence in the Middle-East. It said that America
would have to face a new pearl harbor to really get things going in that
region. There were also ignored intelligent reports stating that Bin Laden
was intending to attack the United States by using airplanes.


On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 4:45 AM, Firouz fir...@thai-bahais.org wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
  Dear friends,

 I see more people both Muslims and non-Muslims talk about 9/11 events after
 Ahmadinejad's recent trip to NY. I have received some video clips showing
 the claim of conspiracy theorists on why 9/11 event was the US government
 job, i.e. why building 7 collapsed, etc.

 Is there a well researched video clip or a scientific article that has
 studied various claims and prepared some good responses to these claims that
 could be shared to those who believe in such theories and answer their
 questions.

 Best regards,
 Firouz


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Re: What went Terribly Wrong? (was: Conspiracy Thoeries and Recent New Events Align alot)

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I think this conversation is interesting. I'm not Sunni or Shi'a, but I
think both narratives have merit.

On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
  I would point out that in the history of Sunni-Shia polemics it is
  actually very common for Shias to argue from Sunni sources.
  Rhetorically it can come off as a neat trick

 Dear Gilberto,

 Is it a 'trick' or merely reflective of the fact that the evidence is
 on their side?

  For
  example Ghadeer Khum is in the Sunni hadith collections too and Sunnis
  largely agree with Shias on the outward facts, but with a very
  different understanding. In terms of the current discussion,

 In other words, they agree with the account which clearly demonstrates
 that Muhammad appointed Ali as His successor.

  In any case, if we are trying to determine the Sunni position on a
  matter you should actually quote positions from Sunni scholars not
  just  cherry pick sunni hadith but ignore what Sunni ulema actually
  believe.

  I'm interested in the evidence not the way in which Sunnis attempt to
 dismiss it.

  Allah have mercy on Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, he abhorred speaking ill
  even of Yazid ibn Mu`awiya because the latter lived in one of the
  centuries praised by our Holy Prophet,

 For the benefit of those Baha'is who are less familiar with Islam, let
 me point out that Ibn Hanbal was the founder of the most conservative
 school of Sunni Islam, the one the Wahhabis adhere to.

 Now let's deconstruct his statement.  He is not going to speak ill
 *even* of Yazid (which implies there is a good deal to speak evil of)
 because he is the son of Mu'awiya. And what does Mu'awiya have in his
 favor? Nothing, except for the fact he lived at the same time as the
 Prophet. This apparently means he doesn't have to live up to the same
 standards as the rest of us.
  Hence Imam Abu Hanifa made it
  part of the obligatory Muslim Creed in al-Fiqh al-Akbar: We [Muslims]
  do not mention any of his Companions except with goodness! Do you
  suppose he meant whenever it suits us or is easy to do?

 Okay, thank you very much for this evidence that Sunni Muslims aren't
 allowed to do any real historical analysis of this period of their
 history.

  What is entailed by having good opinion of the Noble Companions of the
  Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) is that if
  they sinned they hastened to repentance;

 Notwithstanding all the evidence to the contrary.

  There is scholarly consensus,

 So beware folks, Sunni scholars cannot be relied upon when it come so
 their early history because they are theologically committed to
 ignoring all the negatives.

 Do you even realize the implications of what you are saying?

 warmest, Susan

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Re: What went Terribly Wrong? (was: Conspiracy Thoeries and Recent New Events Align alot)

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I think Sunni and Shi'a narratives both have merit, but fall short in
totality. For example, Shi'as are great at keeping a memory alive and of
inspiring people with sacred history. But from a historical perspective, the
world just doesn't work in good guys/bad guys with clearly defined lines
of good and evil. The world is more complicated than that. I side with 'Ali,
Hasan and Husayn over Mu'awiyya and Yazid any day. But it has been over a
thousand years, and this ancient conflict is still producing more conflict.
There has to come a time where people need to just let go and embrace the
present, and work toward the future. I mean, what is it going to look like
4,000 years from now and seeing people still getting mad at people who died
5,000 years ago? No one born within 900 years of that time period, were
involved in that conflict, so why keep stoking the fire? That's my criticism
of the overly hyper Shi'a narrative.

My criticism of the Sunni narrative is that does seem to whitewash the evil
that men did, and to simply ask those who were brutally damaged to just
forgive and forget. It's easy to say that when one is on top, which Sunnis
have historically been. It reminds me of some White people who don't
understand why some minorities want to strongly identify with their
heritage. I'm white, but you don't see me walking around with a Norwegian
flag on my t-shirt, and celebrating Norwegian festivals in America. This is
America, what is wrong with identifying with that? When one is in the
majority, there is really no need to call for solidarity or
preservation. Seeing as the Sunnis have been the majority of Muslims
throughout history, it is understandable that they would prefer to move
forward and let the past stay in the pastbecause it's their ancestors
who did the real bad things. The same situation occurs in America over
slavery. Why do black people keep insisting on reliving slavery. It's over!
Move on!



On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 11:39 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 I see I made a number of mistakes here:

  Yes, I would agree with that. I had in mind specifically the movement
  coming from Ibn Abdu'l-Wahhab. which has its genesis in Egypt

 Obviously Ibn Abdu'l-Wahhab is from Arabia not Egypt. I was thinking
 ahead to the Salafi movement.

  If John Esposito's analysis is correct all these movements
  share a common genesis.

 It was John Voll, not John Esposito who did the isnad study linking
 all these revivalist movements together.  Included among these
 revivalists would be  Shaykh Ahmad Sirinidi and the Naqshabandi Sufis.

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Re: What went Terribly Wrong? (was: Conspiracy Thoeries and Recent New Events Align alot)

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Yes, I am making a distinction between the Shi'a and Baha'i view, because
they are slightly different. The Baha'i perspective has its roots in the
Shi'a view, but it departs in some important ways from it. For example, when
Quratulayn-Tahirih refused to mourn the martyrdom of Hussein, she did so
under the pretense that the 12th Imam/Qa'im/Mahdi was here and alive. Thus,
it was a time for celebration rather than mourning what is past.

I do realize that most Sunnis agree with 'Ali and the Family of the Prophet
over Mu'awiyya and Yazid. There are a few exceptions, such as Bilal Phillips
who depicts Mu'awiyya as a pious man who sincerely followed his conscience.
I personally have a hard time believing that. I don't understand how a
person could be so far removed from the clear utterances and actions of the
Prophet toward his family, and do so many things to harm them, and still
have good intentions while doing so. Having a difficult time understanding
why the Prophet would choose a successor among his own family instead of the
usual egalitarian method of resorting to a council of elders, is one thing.
But it's something else entirely to actively engage in acts of rebellion
against the Prophet's family, and furthermore justify it in the name of
Monotheism. As if Monotheism requires that you treat the family of one's own
Prophet with contempt.

I don't understand why I should have a sin-covering eye of Mu'awiyya when he
made it mandatory to curse 'Ali in all Mosques of his domain, for all five
prayers. He didn't seem to have a sin-covering eye of 'Ali, and 'Ali didn't
do anything wrong. On the other hand, 'Ali showed infinite patience and
reserve toward his foe who proved to view Islam in political rather than
religious terms. It might sound great for unity's sake to let bygones be
bygones, but I think it is dangerous to assume that anyone who did anything
bad still had good intentions in their heart. This notion that simply being
a companion of the Prophet absolves you of all wrong doing, seems rather
convenient to me, for its very construct seems to imply that there is a lot
of wrong doing that one could talk about. As Susan already mentioned,
Mu'awiyya literally converted to Islam at the last second. It is possible
that he had some quick epiphany, but from a historical perspective it
certainly looks like a pragmatic move on his part to escape execution, for
Islam was tolerant in terms of the times by allowing enemies to escape death
through conversion, something not done by other tribes with war captives.

I would never think that Sunnis are pro-killing Hussein. I agree that is
crazy. I am just uncomfortable with this notion that I have to assume
everyone who did something bad, had good intentions in their heart. How can
a person righteously hate 'Ali, Hasan, and Hussein? My mind just can not
grasp the concept. Perhaps that is the Shi'a in me.



On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 6:57 PM, Gilberto Simpson 
gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 2:03 PM, Matt Haase matthewhaa...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 
  I think Sunni and Shi'a narratives both have merit, but fall short in
  totality.

 Are you making some distinction between the Shia view and the Bahai view?

 For example, Shi'as are great at keeping a memory alive and of
  inspiring people with sacred history. But from a historical perspective,
 the
  world just doesn't work in good guys/bad guys with clearly defined
 lines
  of good and evil. The world is more complicated than that. I side with
 'Ali,
  Hasan and Husayn over Mu'awiyya and Yazid any day.

 I hope you realize that for Sunnis, Muawiyya and Yazid were wrong?!

  My criticism of the Sunni narrative is that does seem to whitewash the
 evil
  that men did, and to simply ask those who were brutally damaged to just
  forgive and forget. It's easy to say that when one is on top, which
 Sunnis
  have historically been.

 What you are saying doesn't ring true at all with me. If you are
 talking about the original events, Ali vs. Muawyyia, Yazid vs.
 Hussain, then Sunnis and Shias actually AGREE about who was right and
 who was wrong. It's not as if ANYBODY is saying killing Hussein was
 some wonderful thing. That's just crazy.

 And forgive and forget seems totally out of place. Of course,
 remember history. Don't forget. Nobody is saying otherwise.  But the
 people who did the deeds and the people who suffered from them aren't
 around anymore so forgiveness is moot.

 Of course, that's all seperate from modern social conflicts between
 Sunnis and Shias but that's not really a theological problem. The
 theological differences are just a convenient marker of social
 difference like the fighting between Catholics and Protestants in
 Northern Ireland.


  It reminds me of some White people who don't
  understand why some minorities want to strongly identify with their
  heritage. I'm white, but you don't see me

Re: Arius and the Bahai Writings was Re: What went Terribly Wrong? (was: Conspiracy Thoeries and Recent New Events Align alot)

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I would have to agree with Minhaj about Arius. I don't think he taught an
Islamic view of Jesus more so than he believed that Christ was like a
lesser divinity of God. On the other hand, the Baha'i teachings (from my
perspective) teach that God is the only Divine Being and that the
Manifestations of God reflect His light in the best manner possible
according to human standards.


On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 5:32 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 
  I requested his source on Arianism.

 Ah, I must have missed that.

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Re: Arius and the Bahai Writings was Re: What went Terribly Wrong? (was: Conspiracy Thoeries and Recent New Events Align alot)

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Just some stuff I picked up over time. I think it would be somewhat
problematic from a Muslim perspective to claim that Arius's teachings were
in line with Islamic beliefs, unless one believes that the Qur'an is the
created word of God as opposed to the eternal word of God. Since Jesus
is regarded as the Word in Christianity, the closest comparison in Islam
would be the Qur'an. As I'm sure you know, there was a great debate in Islam
during the early period over the issue of the Qur'an's createdness or
eternal nature. The Mu'tazalites taught that God created the Qur'an,
whereas scholars such as Ahmad ibn Hanbal believed that it was eternal. Most
Muslims came to the consensus that the Qur'an is the eternal word of God.
Since Jesus is roughly the Qur'an of Christianity, and the Qur'an is
roughly the Jesus of Islam (not a perfect analogy, I know), would it not
make sense to agree with the people who claimed the Word was eternal and
not created? I'm not intending to argue, I'm just curious.

On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 7:02 PM, Gilberto Simpson 
gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Where are you getting your information about what Arius believed?
 Also, I'm not sure exactly where you are coming from since the Bahai
 faith on the one hand would affirm the Quranic teaching on Jesus while
 at the same time affirming that sonship and divinity of Jesus so
 I'm not exactly sure how you are disagreeing with Arius.

 (from Wikipedia) according to Alexander (so a hostile witness) what
 Arius taught was the following:

 That God was not always the Father, but that there was a period when
 he was not the Father; that the Word of God was not from eternity, but
 was made out of nothing; for that the ever-existing God (‘the I
 AM’—the eternal One) made him who did not previously exist, out of
 nothing; wherefore there was a time when he did not exist, inasmuch as
 the Son is a creature and a work. That he is neither like the Father
 as it regards his essence, nor is by nature either the Father’s true
 Word, or true Wisdom, but indeed one of his works and creatures, being
 erroneously called Word and Wisdom, since he was himself made of God’s
 own Word and the Wisdom which is in God, whereby God both made all
 things and him also. Wherefore he is as to his nature mutable and
 susceptible of change, as all other rational creatures are: hence the
 Word is alien to and other than the essence of God; and the Father is
 inexplicable by the Son, and invisible to him, for neither does the
 Word perfectly and accurately know the Father, neither can he
 distinctly see him. The Son knows not the nature of his own essence:
 for he was made on our account, in order that God might create us by
 him, as by an instrument; nor would he ever have existed, unless God
 had wished to create us.


 obviously the son/father language is problematic for Muslims but it is
 clear from the above that the Son was made not begotten.

 On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 6:50 PM, Matt Haase matthewhaa...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 
  I would have to agree with Minhaj about Arius. I don't think he taught an
  Islamic view of Jesus more so than he believed that Christ was like a
  lesser divinity of God. On the other hand, the Baha'i teachings (from
 my
  perspective) teach that God is the only Divine Being and that the
  Manifestations of God reflect His light in the best manner possible
  according to human standards.
 
 
  On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 5:32 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
  
   I requested his source on Arianism.
 
  Ah, I must have missed that.
 
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  News

Re: The Future of Religion

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
It wasn't a politically loaded word until Glenn Beck used the phrase to
imply everything evil known to man, about a year ago.



On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

  The Baha'i Studies Listserv

  Why did the UHJ use the term social justice? The word is politically
 loaded. Even though everyone is okay with a society based on justice. The
 term has political meanings rather than that.

  --
 *From:* Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com
 *To:* Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
 *Sent:* Wed, October 27, 2010 10:24:22 AM

 *Subject:* Re: The Future of Religion

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 It might be useful to review the One Common Faith document in this
 connection:

 http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/bic/OCF/

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Re: Devout Religiousity

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I think the term devout is tricky, unless there is a framework for the
word to have meaning. For example, which of the two people would you
consider more devout? A man with no facial hair, wears a suit to work -
holds fundamentalist views of religion. Or a man who grows a beard for
religious reasons, wears traditional religious clothing whenever he can -
is very progressive and liberal in his views of religion. How can anyone
judge who is more devout than the other?



On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 3:57 PM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

  The Baha'i Studies Listserv

  How devout is devout? Religionists tend to be broken into three
 categories of followers: laity, devout devotees, clergy/monastics.

 I will give an example of this negleacted middle category.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Up%C4%81saka_and_Up%C4%81sik%C4%81

 That was the only example I can find because laity is usually the first
 category with some rare instacnes of second category.

 It is stratified with various levels sometimes.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratimoksha

 Thet range from widely depending on level of responsibility one undertakes
 oneself with.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Precepts
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A%C4%ABla

 It's done on a daily basis. So statue could fluctuate on a daily basis in
 theory. Technically, non-practicing is a below the minimum group that
 comprises anyone who identifies with a religion or its accosition, but fails
 to meet a minimal threshold for official membership.  So, what would set
 some laity up to devout devotee status in religion not that systematized?

 The Baha'i Faith has no clergy/monastic category, therefore it has two
 rather than three. What pratices would cause a Baha'i to qualify for devout
 devotee status?

 A devout devotee of Buddhism is someone who takes the most strict
 Pratimoksha avialable to laity each and every day: keeping all five pecepts,
 pure conduct, and wearing robes. The second most stirct is that without the
 robe requirement. The third most strict is just five precepts daily which is
 the definition of laity. You also have the option of only taking x out of 5,
 which means some precepts in all honesty you know you won't/can't/etc follow
 and won't try. The least strict is just taking refuge, which is nonminal.
 Non-practicing is not even taking refuge. Purity of conduct with or without
 robes seems to be the main difference, but I'm not an expert.

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Re: Religion and Women

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
*Sure, and the same is true of Islam... both in terms of how Muslims
understand Islamic general roles, or, in this case, how non-Muslims at
times go too far in attributing problematic gender roles to Islam per
se. As I've said to you before, if you really believe that God is
merciful and just, and if you really believe that the Quran comes from
God, then it should be possible to follow the Quran and be
compassionate and just to women.*

As a Muslim, I agree with you. But I think I understand where Susan
is coming from in regards to her own religion's view. The Baha'i Faith (in
my understanding) is a Dispensationalist religion - whereby it is believed
that God sort of took His/Her Spirit away from the most previous
revelation (Islam), and placed it in the hands of the Baha'i Faith.
Therefore, all spiritual progress that has since been made by other
religions is to really be credited to the Baha'i Faith for being the kind of
command center of the religious universe, that is sending out inspiration
to the rest of the religious world. Hence, progress made in other religions
is not to be credited to those religions themselves, but to the Baha'i
Faith. That is why some Baha'is tend to gloss over the changes and reforms
that other religions are going under, because it is believed that a true
practice of older religions would ultimately lead to very bad things.

You can also look at it like a business owner. The Baha'i Faith would be a
very kind business executive who wishes for his competitors success in their
endeavors, but will still compete for buying customers nonetheless.
Therefore, he/she can't excessively praise their competition to the point
that people may go to their competitors. I personally have no problem in
saying that the Baha'i Faith has brought some progressive teachings to the
world of religion, such as an universal auxiliary language, encouragement of
developing skills in the arts and sciences, promoting reading and writing
intelligence, the equality of the sexes, the universality of human beings,
the promotion of concord between religions. What irks me, though, is when
some Baha'is say that none of the other religions have these teachings,
which seems to contradict the whole idea of promoting concord between the
religions - because it's basically saying let's get along everyone. I'm
better than all of you, in my view. But maybe that is an emotional rather
than rational view of mine.

Salam




On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 1:03 AM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 12:44 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
  Wow, that's a really insulting ad hominem counter-argument which is
  really irrelevant to what was said.
 
  It is not an issue of being ad hominem.

 Perhaps you didn't intend it this way, but the basic form of your
 argument was to say that Naison was wrong because he was echoing
 Muslim arguments. And you didn't give any other specific reason for
 the argument not being valid. That seems like a pretty standard ad
 hominem argument.

  If we are in fact not saying
  anything different about the roles of women and men than Christians
  and Muslims then we can't really say we are making any progress when
  it comes to equality.

 Progress doesn't have to be just in  terms of the formal law (this
 book vs. that book) but it can also be made in terms of the social
 reality. As time goes on, all societies (Muslim, Christian, Bahai
 etc.) are making progress in terms of women's equality. You don't have
 to frame it as a Bahai vs. Islam argument.

 Also, I've said this before but there are certainly issues where
 progress isn't monotonic in a simple-minded way. For example, why
 would God prohibit pork under Judaism, permit it under Christianity,
 prohibit it under Islam, and then permit it under the Bahai faith
 again?


 
   And it is only
  natural that a thoughtful Bahai would want to try to articulate some
  reasons those distinctions are made.
 
  Perhaps it is. But what I see happening is that all too often is that
  the very few distinctions made in our Writings are made into an excuse
  to continue inequalities in all sorts of areas which are not
  warranted.

 Sure, and the same is true of Islam... both in terms of how Muslims
 understand Islamic general roles, or, in this case, how non-Muslims at
 times go too far in attributing problematic gender roles to Islam per
 se. As I've said to you before, if you really believe that God is
 merciful and just, and if you really believe that the Quran comes from
 God, then it should be possible to follow the Quran and be
 compassionate and just to women.
 

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Re: Religion and Women

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Dear Iskandar,

Of course we all have reasons why we choose a particular path over others,
and that they speak to us more fully than the others - hence why we identify
ourselves as such. I think it is possible for one to do that without being
supremacist. For example, I don't believe the Baha'i Faith is an evil
religion or that its adherents are apostates from Islam. My reasons for
identifying with Islam are complex and many, I couldn't possibly explain
them adequately in an email forum message. But an important reason is
Islam's diversity, that there are many strands of thought, theology, and
philosophy in Islam - sometimes to the point that it appears that they are
different religions altogether. I also have felt that I had a personal
calling to Islam that I did not have with the Baha'i Faith. But none of that
proves Islam is superior to the Baha'i Faith, or vice versa.

*If it irks you, so be it; you irk atheists, Jews, Christians, Buddhists,
etc. And please don't tell me that those other religions don't have the true
or authentic scripture nonsense. That's just bull. *
**
I want you to remember that comment the next time someone uses the Baha'is
as a bad example, or insults your beloved Faith in anyway, and tell yourself
so be it. I irk them. I never said anything about other religions not
having authentic scriptures. I would be careful saying it is bull,
considering Shoghi Effendi said this about Buddhist scriptures;

*Regarding Hinduism and Buddhism, Shoghi Effendi says that we cannot be
sure of the scriptures of Buddha and Krishna (*Lights of Guidance,* 2d ed.,
503), and that no one possesses the Buddha's authentic writings (Buddha,
Krishna, Zoroaster and Related Subjects, 21). Shoghi Effendi often advised
Baha'is to turn to historians and religious scholars in order to learn about
Hinduism and Buddhism (Ibid., 19, 20, 21; *Lights of Guidance,* 1st ed.,
382).*
**
http://bahai-library.com/encyclopedia/scripture.html

I did not present that to start a fight with you, it's just that it seems
like any time myself or Gilberto express any concern over how Islam is being
insulted in some manner, you basically tell us that we have no right to
express concern - and that it's those bad Muslims in the East that are
persecuting Baha'is - therefore we have no reason to complain. Truth be
told, I let most things slide, and when I do finally express a concern, I
never want it to turn into a debate that eats up the main topic at hand.

Allahu Abha


On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 10:18 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
iskandar@gmail.comwrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv

  Dear Gilberto and Matt:

 On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 2:28 AM, Gilberto Simpson 
 gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote:

  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Yes, I think we understand one another.

 On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 1:46 AM, Matt Haase matthewhaa...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 
  Sure, and the same is true of Islam... both in terms of how Muslims
  understand Islamic general roles, or, in this case, how non-Muslims at
  times go too far in attributing problematic gender roles to Islam per
  se. As I've said to you before, if you really believe that God is
  merciful and just, and if you really believe that the Quran comes from
  God, then it should be possible to follow the Quran and be
  compassionate and just to women.
 
  As a Muslim, I agree with you. But I think I understand where Susan
  is coming from in regards to her own religion's view. The Baha'i Faith
 (in
  my understanding) is a Dispensationalist religion - whereby it is
 believed
  that God sort of took His/Her Spirit away from the most previous
  revelation (Islam), and placed it in the hands of the Baha'i Faith.
  Therefore, all spiritual progress that has since been made by other
  religions is to really be credited to the Baha'i Faith for being the
 kind of
  command center of the religious universe, that is sending out
 inspiration
  to the rest of the religious world. Hence, progress made in other
 religions
  is not to be credited to those religions themselves, but to the Baha'i
  Faith. That is why some Baha'is tend to gloss over the changes and
 reforms
  that other religions are going under, because it is believed that a true
  practice of older religions would ultimately lead to very bad things.
 
  You can also look at it like a business owner. The Baha'i Faith would be
 a
  very kind business executive who wishes for his competitors success in
 their
  endeavors, but will still compete for buying customers nonetheless.
  Therefore, he/she can't excessively praise their competition to the
 point
  that people may go to their competitors. I personally have no problem in
  saying that the Baha'i Faith has brought some progressive teachings to
 the
  world of religion, such as an universal auxiliary language,
 encouragement of
  developing skills in the arts and sciences, promoting reading and
 writing
  intelligence, the equality of the sexes

Re: Religion and Women

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
There are obvious physiological differences between male and female, but I
would be cautious to set up definite, unchanging laws that dictate the sexes
behaviors. Statements like this is what a man does, this is what a woman
does, make me cringe, because we are all individuals at heart. We have
certain DNA encoding that steer some of our goals, yes, but we also have a
soul or spirit and a personality that is our own.

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Re: Eid Al-Adha

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Thank You. Pre-emptive happy Qawl Feast to you.




On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 10:30 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com
 wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv


 Happy Eid Al-Adha (commonly known as Eid ghorbAAn in Persian) to all my
 Muslim friends; may all receive Divine blessings.

 Best regards,
 Iskandar

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Re: Grave Influence

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I don't know how you are defining the term radical. Quite a few of these
people on the list come from the Left, so is that how you are defining it?
Would you also refer to certain people associated with the Right as
radicals?




On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv

  http://www.worldviewweekend.com/secure/store/product.php?ProductID=1164

 Saul Alinsky, Karl Marx, John Dewey, John Maynard Keynes, Aldous Huxley,
 Charles Darwin, Friedrich Nietzsche, Margaret Sanger, William James, Alice
 Bailey, Helen Schucman, Sigmund Freud, Alfred Kinsey, Benjamin Bloom, B.F.
 Skinner, The Frankfurt School, Soren Kierkegaard, Julius Wellhausen,
 Christopher Columbus Langdell, Betty Friedan and Roger Baldwin

 21 Radicals


 http://www.worldviewtube.com/video.php/videoid-4369/Brannon-Howse/Brannon-Howse
  Karl
 Marx


 http://www.worldviewtube.com/video.php/videoid-4368/Brannon-Howse/Brannon-Howse
  Saul
 Alinsky

 http://www.worldviewweekend.com/worldview-tube/video.php?videoid=4367 Alice
 Bailey

 I was surfing the web and stumbled on this. I already knew about John
 Maynard Keynes and Karl Marx. What are your views of how radicals have
 changed society? Also, I have a positive view of one, Soren Kierkegaard.

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Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
What I find interesting about this movement is that it is like holding a
mirror to some Baha'is in regards to what they say about other religions.
Some Baha'is tell followers of older religions that the scriptures are not
meant to be taken literally, especially in regards to passages that
seemingly claim a particular Prophet is the last Prophet. What I find
interesting about Maitreya, is that he uses the same argument against
Baha'is. Whereas the Baha'i Writings teach that a Manifestation of God will
not appear for atleast 1,000 years after Baha'u'llah's own declaration of
being one, Maitreya says to the Baha'is, It's not meant to be taken
literally. You are doing the same thing that the followers of older
religions have done, whereupon Baha'is insist that they are not and claim a
kind of exceptionalism; which is what we all do when confronted with this
kind of issue. If anything, I think new religious movements in general act
as a test to make us more humble in regards to people who follow older
religions, because someone may pose the same arguments to us some day.



On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv

 http://www.maitreya.org/

 Joseph Emmanuel of the Mission of Maitreya http://www.maitreya.org/claims 
 to be the Maitreya Buddha, as well as a major prophet of God who
 purportedly fulfills prophecies from the Old Testament, New Testament,
 Koran, Baha'i scriptures and eastern 
 scriptures.[18]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya#cite_note-Prophecies_of_Maitreya-17Perhaps
  the most prominent example of Emmanuel's claims to being the
 Maitreya is the fact that his main teaching seeks to unify the world's
 religions by means of showing how each religion corresponds to one of seven
 seals.[19]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya#cite_note-Seven_Seals-18His
  use of the term seal is a reference to a central tenet of Christian
 eschatological belief described in the Bible, in which it is predicted that
 Christ would return and open a book sealed with seven seals (Rev 
 5:5http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%205version=NIV).
 The Mission of Maitreya also makes claims that link Emmanuel's teaching of
 seven seals to Buddhist tradition. According to Buddhist Scriptures, the
 Maitreya Buddha will take seven steps forward, and where he puts down his
 feet a jewel or lotus will spring 
 up.[20]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya#cite_note-Buddhist_Prophecies_Website-19
 [21]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya#cite_note-Buddhist_Scriptures-20Emmanuel
  was originally a student of the yoga teacher P.R.
 Sarkar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prabhat_Ranjan_Sarkar in India, who
 founded Ananda Marga http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ananda_Marga, and
 while in this organization, Emmanuel was given the spiritual name
 Maitreya. This has been cited as further evidence by the Mission of
 Maitreya that Joseph Emmanuel is the true Maitreya.

 I was surfing through Wikipedia and found this.

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Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
But that's my whole point. Even if it is obvious to you, there could be
someone else out there who will symbolically interpret a clearly literal
verse, even it is so literal as to say this verse is to be interpreted
literally. They will say, define 'literally.' :-)

That is how the followers of all religions feel when someone new comes
along, and challenges ther exclusivity. No, no. It clearly says my guy is
the last Prophet, whereas the new one says yes, but 'last' can mean many
things. I'm not challenging Baha'is on this, because I recognize the same
thing within my own faith.




On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 7:20 PM, Adib Masumian adibmasum...@gmail.comwrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv

 Whereas the Baha'i Writings teach that a Manifestation of God will not
 appear for atleast 1,000 years after Baha'u'llah's own declaration of being
 one, Maitreya says to the Baha'is, It's not meant to be taken literally.
 You are doing the same thing that the followers of older religions have
 done

 That might be a more viable argument if Baha'u'llah hadn't unequivocally
 declared the following to this effect in verse 37 of the Aqdas:

 Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is
 deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all
 created things.

 Adib

  On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Matt Haase matthewhaa...@gmail.comwrote:

  The Baha'i Studies Listserv


 What I find interesting about this movement is that it is like holding a
 mirror to some Baha'is in regards to what they say about other religions.
 Some Baha'is tell followers of older religions that the scriptures are not
 meant to be taken literally, especially in regards to passages that
 seemingly claim a particular Prophet is the last Prophet. What I find
 interesting about Maitreya, is that he uses the same argument against
 Baha'is. Whereas the Baha'i Writings teach that a Manifestation of God will
 not appear for atleast 1,000 years after Baha'u'llah's own declaration of
 being one, Maitreya says to the Baha'is, It's not meant to be taken
 literally. You are doing the same thing that the followers of older
 religions have done, whereupon Baha'is insist that they are not and claim a
 kind of exceptionalism; which is what we all do when confronted with this
 kind of issue. If anything, I think new religious movements in general act
 as a test to make us more humble in regards to people who follow older
 religions, because someone may pose the same arguments to us some day.



  On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.comwrote:

  The Baha'i Studies Listserv

 http://www.maitreya.org/

 Joseph Emmanuel of the Mission of Maitreya http://www.maitreya.org/claims 
 to be the Maitreya Buddha, as well as a major prophet of God who
 purportedly fulfills prophecies from the Old Testament, New Testament,
 Koran, Baha'i scriptures and eastern 
 scriptures.[18]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya#cite_note-Prophecies_of_Maitreya-17Perhaps
  the most prominent example of Emmanuel's claims to being the
 Maitreya is the fact that his main teaching seeks to unify the world's
 religions by means of showing how each religion corresponds to one of seven
 seals.[19]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya#cite_note-Seven_Seals-18His
  use of the term seal is a reference to a central tenet of Christian
 eschatological belief described in the Bible, in which it is predicted that
 Christ would return and open a book sealed with seven seals (Rev 
 5:5http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%205version=NIV).
 The Mission of Maitreya also makes claims that link Emmanuel's teaching of
 seven seals to Buddhist tradition. According to Buddhist Scriptures, the
 Maitreya Buddha will take seven steps forward, and where he puts down his
 feet a jewel or lotus will spring 
 up.[20]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya#cite_note-Buddhist_Prophecies_Website-19
 [21]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya#cite_note-Buddhist_Scriptures-20Emmanuel
  was originally a student of the yoga teacher P.R.
 Sarkar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prabhat_Ranjan_Sarkar in India,
 who founded Ananda Marga http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ananda_Marga,
 and while in this organization, Emmanuel was given the spiritual name
 Maitreya. This has been cited as further evidence by the Mission of
 Maitreya that Joseph Emmanuel is the true Maitreya.

 I was surfing through Wikipedia and found this.

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Re: Joseph Emmanuel

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Peace,

I think I started the debate (it was by accident, actually) by saying that
some (not all) Baha'is use the same type of argument against Muslims,
Christians, Jews, that this Maitreya person uses against Baha'is and others,
i.e. the verses claiming finality of prophethood, sonship, christhood are
not meant to be taken literally. Granted, the Baha'i Faith only has a 1,000
year restriction before the advent of future Manifestations, but I thought
the point made sense to me at the time.


On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 5:23 PM, Tim Nolan tnola...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
  But Bahais generally don't just stop here, and instead
 would insist that Bahaullah etc. were messengers and prophets and so
 Muslims must be wrong/confused/wanting to tie the hands of God, etc.


 As I see it, the Qur'an contains the authentic revelation of God to
 Muhammad.
 The text of the Qur'an is true.  As a Baha'i I have to believe that.

 Therefore, when the Qur'an says Muhammad is the Seal (last)
 of the messengers and prophets, I accept that as true.

 But apparently Baha'u'llah was of a different category, neither rasul nor
 nabi.
 So what's the problem?  There is no need for this debate.
 The Qur'an is true, and Baha'u'llah really is the Manifestation of God
 for this age.  Both are true.
  Tim


 All good art is about something deeper than it admits.
 --Roger Ebert



 - Original Message 
 From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com
 To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
 Sent: Fri, December 17, 2010 2:23:05 PM
 Subject: Re: Joseph Emmanuel

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Again, if you go back to Khazeh's and Seena Fazel's interesting paper,
 he qutoes Juan Cole in a work of *his* on the Concept of the
 Manifestation in the Bahai Faith:

 Therefore in one sense, the Qur'ánic title of khátam al-nabiyyín (seal
 of the prophets) implies that the prophet and the messenger were a
 function of theophany which came to an end with Muhammad. With the
 Báb and Bahá'u'lláh, in the Bahá'í view, humankind has entered a new
 religious cycle characterized by a fuller theophany. In this cycle,
 concepts like `prophet' and `messenger' have been transcended (Cole,
 Concept 18). In support, it is significant that the authors cannot
 find one instance in Bahá'u'lláh's writings in which he refers to
 himself as a nabí (prophet) or rasúll (messenger).[37]

 [end quote]

 And I think that if Bahais just stopped here, there would be much less
 disagreement. But Bahais generally don't just stop here, and instead
 would insist that Bahaullah etc. were messengers and prophets and so
 Muslims must be wrong/confused/wanting to tie the hands of God, etc.

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Re: The Imam H.usayn in London

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Ya Hussein! Ya Hussein! Everyday is Ashura, and Everywhere is Karbala.



On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 2:12 PM, Khazeh aqu...@dsl.pipex.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P4G69l4kXQfeature=player_embedded#!







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Re: The Imam H.usayn in London

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Oh, wow..How symoblic and beneficial to others at the same time.

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Thanks, Khazeh. Muslims in England also came up with this unique
 method to commemorate Ashura which I though quite appropriate:


 
 http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/local/manchester/hi/people_and_places/religion_and_ethics/newsid_9291000/9291630.stm
 

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Re: an erxplanation of the *SEAL** based on the Address of Visitation of the Imam 'Ali addressing Muh.ammad (SAW)

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Peace,

I don't want to further engross people into the debate (which I sincerely
did not intend to start with my initial comment), but there is a concept in
Sufi and Shi'a Islam called the Nuri Muhammad (the light of Muhammad.) Some
Sufis and Shi'a go so far to say that all of creation was created through
the Nur of Muhammad. God created the Nuri Muhammad first, and through that
Light, He created everything else, including Adam. So, Adam manifested some
of the Nuri Muhammad before Muhammad was physically born thousands of years
later. This implies that Muhammad is the archetypal prophet, or the eternal
prophet. If I am not mistaken, the Baha'i Faith says the same thing about
Baha'u'llah (i.e. that all was created *through* Him), and that he is the
voice of God that Moses spoke with at the Burning Bush.


On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 2:36 AM, Khazeh aqu...@dsl.pipex.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv

  Recently there was again so much discussion on various lists on Muh.ammad
 “sealing” all future Prophethood.

 In the middle of the discussion I wrote this.

 It may be of interest to you too.

 



 According to all the Prayer Books of the Shi’his and most particularly
 Mafatih ul Jinaan

 The Imam 'Ali used to address this Visitation Address to the Prophet of
 Islam.

 *This Address of Visitation addressed by the Imam ‘Ali to the Soul of the
 Prophet of God is important at its start for the fact that THREE names or
 adjectives are used for the Prophet*

 Muh.ammad is called simultaneously by these three

 Particular attention needs to be paid to the vowelization of the “t” of
 Khaat*a*m or Khaatim.

 Please note these three adjectives of the Prophet of Islam:

 1 ) khaatam  *خاتَمِ** *as per 33:40 [this is the locus classicus of what
 is interpreted as  finality]

 2) then He is called KHAATIM *وَالْخاتِمِ* [the closer/the terminator of
 that which preceded Him i.e the preceding Dispensations]

 3) and then immediately Muh.ammad is called the FAATIH.  *وَالْفاتِحِ**
 *i.e. *the opener of all that will come to pass in the future*

 * *

 *This is the address addressed by the Imam ‘Ali to the Soul of the Prophet
 and all Moslems are to address Him thus: and I have provided web references
 just two but there are so many in number*

 http://www.mezan.net/mawsouat/ali/ziyarat/z_ghadir.html



 * *

 * *

 *اَلسَّلامُ عَلى مُحَمَّد رَسُولِ اللهِ **خاتَمِ** النَّبِيّينَ وَسَيِّدِ
 الْمُرْسَلينَ، وَصَفْوَةِ رَبِّ الْعالَمينَ، اَمينِ اللهِ عَلى وَحْيِهِ
 وَعَزائِمِ اَمْرِهِ**، وَالْخاتِمِ لِما سَبَقَ، وَالْفاتِحِ لِمَا
 اسْتُقْبِلَ،** *



 And again

 http://www.hyderya.net/hashemya33/mafatih/meftah19.htm#_toc516989449

 and yet again



 http://www.rafed.net/books/doaa/kamil/k15.html





 and what is most interesting for us is that Baha’u’llah Himself refers to
 this Address of Visitation of the Imam ‘Ali in a Tablet He revealed on the
 first Day of Rid.wan 1863.

 *** the Suriy-i-Sabr (Surih of Patience), revealed on the first day of
 Ridvan which extols Vahid and his fellow-sufferers in Nayriz



   (Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 140)

 ** In the Suriy-i-Sabr, revealed as far back as the year 1863, on the very
 first day of His arrival in the garden of Ridvan, He thus affirms: God
 hath sent down His Messengers to succeed to Moses and Jesus, and He will
 continue to do so till 'the end that hath no end'; so that His grace may,
 from the heaven of Divine bounty, be continually vouchsafed to mankind.



   (Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 116)





 http://bahai-library.org/provisionals/surih.sabr.html

 ***Reveal unto them what the Dove of the Spirit has sung in the holy and
 beloved Ridvan haply they may follow the interpretation of the term Seal
 as was uttered by the Tongue of the Name of God 'Ali, He Who was firmly
 grounded in knowledge, *in His Visitation of the Prophet. He said in
 truth, Muhammad the Sealer of what preceded Him and the Initiator of that
 which was to come.* In this was uttered the significance of the term of
 Seal from that unapproachably holy tongue. Thus did God ordain Him to be the
 Seal of those Prophets that preceded Him and an Initiator of the Advent of
 Messengers  to come after Him.***

 اِذاً فَاَلْقِ عَلَيْهِمْ ما غَرَّدَتْ بِه حَمامَةُ الرُّوحِ فی رِضْوانِ
 قُدْسٍ مَحْبُوباً  لَعَلَّ

 يَتَّبِعُونَ ما فُسِّرَ فِی الْخَتْمِ عَنْ لِسانِ الَّذی کانَ راسِخاً فِی 
 الْعِلْمِ
 فی زِيارَةِ اِسْمِ اللّهِ عَلِيّاً  قالَ وَ قَوْلُهُ الْحَقُّ

 الْخاتَمُ لِما سَبَقَ وَ الْفاتِحُ لِمَا اسْتُقْبِلَ وَ کَذلِکَ ذُکِرَ مَعْنَی
 الْخَتْمِ مِنْ لِسانِ قُدْسٍ مَنيْعاً

 کَذلِکَ جَعَلَ اللّهُ

 حَبيْبَهُ خاتَماً لِما سَبَقُوهُ مِنَ النَّبِيّينَ وَ *فاتِحاً* لِما يَاْتی
 مِنَ الْمُرْسَلينَ مِنْ بَعْدُ اِذاً تَفَکَّرُوا



 Please God we may be fair in our judgement before the Judgement seat of God
 in the world beyond especially as Baha’u’llah is so clear and lucid and
 cogent in His Divine Argument…

 

Re: Muslim Shaykh Explains Child Marriage to 1 year old girl

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
That's not at all what Baha'is believe, so quit trying to make the Baha'is
seem like they are out to crush everyone else.



On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 11:09 AM, atheist challenge 
atheistchallen...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv

 Adib,

 Yes I realize that Baha'ism is not a sect or subgroup of Islam and know
 that Baha'is do not acknowledge the Koran to be foundational since
 Baha'u'llah's writings (and his line of succession) form the basis for
 Baha'ism.

 I am not picking only on Mohammedanism.  I will get to the Cult of
 Christianity and the lack of historical evidence for both the Bible and
 Jesus of Nazareth, later on.

 The only world religion with sufficient historical evidence is Bahaism.

 --

 The Atheist Challenge.

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Re: Islamic Anger and Terrorism prevents textual and historical criticism of Quran

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Not angry at all, and I am proud follower of the moon-god, as He is the
God of the moon, sun, earth, planets, stars, and everything in creation.
This is a Baha'i list, by the way.



On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 9:52 AM, atheist challenge 
atheistchallen...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv

 Hello angry Muslims, followers of the moon-god,

 *See This:*
 *
 *
 *http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/quran2.pdf*


 And this:


 The prospect of a Muslim backlash has not deterred the critical-historical
 study of the Koran, as the existence of the essays in *The Origins of the
 Koran *(1998) demonstrate. Even in the aftermath of the Rushdie affair the
 work continues: In 1996 the Koranic scholar Günter Lüling wrote in *The
 Journal of Higher Criticism*about the wide extent to which both the text
 of the Koran and the learned Islamic account of Islamic origins have been
 distorted, a deformation unsuspectingly accepted by Western Islamicists
 until now. In 1994 the journal *Jerusalem Studies in Arabic and Islam* 
 published
 a posthumous study by Yehuda D. Nevo, of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem,
 detailing seventh- and eighth-century religious inscriptions on stones in
 the Negev Desert which, Nevo suggested, pose considerable problems for the
 traditional Muslim account of the history of Islam. That same year, and in
 the same journal, Patricia Crone, a historian of early Islam currently based
 at the Institute for Advanced Study, in Princeton, New Jersey, published an
 article in which she argued that elucidating problematic passages in the
 Koranic text is likely to be made possible only by abandoning the
 conventional account of how the Qur'an was born. And since 1991 James
 Bellamy, of the University of Michigan, has proposed in the *Journal of
 the American Oriental Society* a series of emendations to the text of the
 Koran -- changes that from the orthodox Muslim perspective amount to
 copyediting God.

 rone is one of the most iconoclastic of these scholars. During the 1970s
 and 1980s she wrote and collaborated on several books -- most notoriously,
 with Michael Cook, *Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World* (1977) --
 that made radical arguments about the origins of Islam and the writing of
 Islamic history. Among *Hagarism*'s controversial claims were suggestions
 that the text of the Koran came into being later than is now believed
 (There is no hard evidence for the existence of the Koran in any form
 before the last decade of the seventh century); that Mecca was not the
 initial Islamic sanctuary ([the evidence] points unambiguously to a
 sanctuary in north-west Arabia ... Mecca was secondary); that the Arab
 conquests preceded the institutionalization of Islam (the Jewish messianic
 fantasy was enacted in the form of an Arab conquest of the Holy Land); that
 the idea of the *hijra,* or the migration of Muhammad and his followers
 from Mecca to Medina in 622, may have evolved long after Muhammad died (No
 seventh-century source identifies the Arab era as that of the *hijra*);
 and that the term Muslim was not commonly used in early Islam (There is
 no good reason to suppose that the bearers of this primitive identity called
 themselves 'Muslims' [but] sources do ... reveal an earlier designation of
 the community [which] appears in Greek as 'Magaritai' in a papyrus of 642,
 and in Syriac as 'Mahgre' or 'Mahgraye' from as early as the 640s).

 *Hagarism *came under immediate attack, from Muslim and non-Muslim
 scholars alike, for its heavy reliance on hostile sources. (This is a
 book, the authors wrote, based on what from any Muslim perspective must
 appear an inordinate regard for the testimony of infidel sources.) Crone
 and Cook have since backed away from some of its most radical propositions
 -- such as, for example, that the Prophet Muhammad lived two years longer
 than the Muslim tradition claims he did, and that the historicity of his
 migration to Medina is questionable. But Crone has continued to challenge
 both Muslim and Western orthodox views of Islamic history. In *Meccan
 Trade and the Rise of Islam* (1987) she made a detailed 
 argumenthttp://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/crone.html%0D challenging
 the prevailing view among Western (and some Muslim) scholars that Islam
 arose in response to the Arabian spice trade.

 Gerd-R. Puin's current thinking about the Koran's history partakes of this
 contemporary revisionism. My idea is that the Koran is a kind of cocktail
 of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad, he
 says. Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself.
 Even within the Islamic traditions there is a huge body of contradictory
 information, including a significant Christian substrate; one can derive a
 whole Islamic *anti-history *from them if one wants.

 Patricia Crone defends the goals of this sort of thinking. The Koran is a
 scripture with a history like any other -- except that 

Re: Muslim Shaykh Explains Child Marriage to 1 year old girl

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
This is really starting to look like a dirty tricks campaign to make
Baha'is look like they hate Islam, so it will upset Muslims. I doubt you are
even an atheist at this point.

On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 2:20 PM, atheist challenge 
atheistchallen...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv

 Gilberto,

 Sorry to break it to you but you have completely misunderstood Shoghi
 Effendi and other Baha'i authors.

 I doubt the Baha'is will defend a pedophile, warmonger, nor even the
 competing book he fabricated and plagiarized the gnostic Christian sources
 of his time.

 Shoghi Effendi was speaking in the context of what Baha'u'llah and
 Abdu'l-Baha had said before him, and all the quote means is  that the
 establishment of the Baha'ism is the same as the establishment of the
 **Baha'i mythological stories about an Islam**, and has absolutely nothing
 to do with the proper Islam of Qoranists, Sunnis, Shiites, and Sufists,
 Ahmadis, etc.


 *In the same way, Islam believes in Jesus, but the Jesus that Islam has
 established in the Middle East has nothing to do with the Jesus of
 Catholicism.*

 --

 The Atheist Challenge

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Re: Muslim Shaykh Explains Child Marriage to 1 year old girl

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
That doesn't make any sense. If these many peaceful Muslims look to the
Quran, Hadith and Sunnah of the Prophet for guidance on how to live their
lives, then why aren't they murdering and maming people? Since Islam is so
evil and violent, surely these many peaceful Muslims would be inspired
to run off and kill the next person they see. You are an internet troll.

On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 2:24 PM, atheist challenge 
atheistchallen...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv

 Matt,

 I have no problem with individual Muslims.  There are many good people
 everywhere.

 The problem is the Qoran and Hadees.  Islam teaches War, but many Muslims
 are peaceful.

 --

 The Atheist Challenge

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Re: Muslim Shaykh Explains Child Marriage to 1 year old girl

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I don't have any tricks in my bag, unlike you. I have seen this dozens of
times. Someone pretends to be a Baha'i, or an advocate of the Baha'i Faith,
but then sows the seeds of hatred for other peoples, as if to imply that
this is what Baha'is believe. This is done in hopes that people who don't
know any better will come to that website or blog, read it and think this
must be what Baha'is really believe. One of my favorites was an article
titled, Baha'i is the only path to salvation, and in it the author writes
that every other religion is in kindergarten and the Baha'is are in
graduate school. While some Baha'is do make this analogy, they mostly
don't take it that literally and write it with such arrogance as that.




On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 2:30 PM, atheist challenge 
atheistchallen...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv

 Matt,

 Your tricks do not fool the atheists among us.


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Re: Muslim Shaykh Explains Child Marriage to 1 year old girl

[Matt Haase]

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Indeed. This is a tactic I have come across many times. Pretend to be an
advocate, say ridiculously offensive things to imply that this is what
Baha'is believe, rinse and repeat.



On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 2:33 PM, Ahang Rabbani ahang.rabb...@gmail.comwrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv

 Most likely he's a plant by the Islamic regime.  They show up on Facebook
 and elsewhere intending on interrupting Baha'i discussions and defaming
 Baha'i teachings.  I suggest he be ignored and eventually he'll go away.



  On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 1:29 PM, Matt Haase matthewhaa...@gmail.comwrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv

 This is really starting to look like a dirty tricks campaign to make
 Baha'is look like they hate Islam, so it will upset Muslims. I doubt you are
 even an atheist at this point.

  On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 2:20 PM, atheist challenge 
 atheistchallen...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv

 Gilberto,

 Sorry to break it to you but you have completely misunderstood Shoghi
 Effendi and other Baha'i authors.

 I doubt the Baha'is will defend a pedophile, warmonger, nor even the
 competing book he fabricated and plagiarized the gnostic Christian sources
 of his time.

 Shoghi Effendi was speaking in the context of what Baha'u'llah and
 Abdu'l-Baha had said before him, and all the quote means is  that the
 establishment of the Baha'ism is the same as the establishment of the
 **Baha'i mythological stories about an Islam**, and has absolutely nothing
 to do with the proper Islam of Qoranists, Sunnis, Shiites, and Sufists,
 Ahmadis, etc.


 *In the same way, Islam believes in Jesus, but the Jesus that Islam has
 established in the Middle East has nothing to do with the Jesus of
 Catholicism.*

 --

 The Atheist Challenge

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