date:20030801

At 11:06 PM 7/31/03 -0700, Doug Pensinger wrote:
Ronn!Blankenship wrote:

However, there's at least one spiral galaxy which apparently rotates 
backwards:
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/releases/2002/release_2002_33.html
Must be in the Southern Hemisphere.


It is, but don't quit your day job to become an astronomer.

Or a comedian.

;-P



-- Ronn!  :)

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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective list-subscribers

2003-08-01 Thread Jan Coffey


--- Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Jan Coffey wrote:
  
  --- Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   Jan Coffey wrote:
  
Now, would anyone like to actually talk about the article for which
 this
thread is titled?
  
   Hm.  After a bit of thinking, I have:
  
  
  About the article or the sidetrack?
 
 About my new subject line.  This sub-thread isn't titled for any
 existing article.  :)  I figured we could write our own as a
 collaborative effort, maybe.
  
 And to answer all the questions which I cut, I was *not* thinking about
 you specifically about any particular one, except maybe the chip on the
 shoulder, and you are not by *any* means the only one to display such
 here.
 
 Sorry if you took it personally -- I didn't mean for you to do so.  I
 was just taking examples of the most negative and thread-derailing sorts
 of behavior I could recall in the past couple of years or so.
 
   Julia
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5) Improperly taking threads personally.

:)


=
_
   Jan William Coffey
_

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RE: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies

2003-08-01 Thread Jan Coffey


--- Jim Sharkey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Jan Coffey wrote:
 It is, however, important to know that %20 of the world population 
 is far enough to my side of the axis to be labled dyslexic.
 
 Where does this statistic come from?
 

Sally Shaywitz M.D. 

http://www.writersreps.com/live/catalog/authors/shaywitzs.html

There are researchers who disagree with shaywitz but as far as I know, not on
this point.

If you read her book and her papers, you may notice some contradictions to
many of the fine detials, but that is usually the case. She seems to have the
big picture right, but is missing the insite of the the experience.




=
_
   Jan William Coffey
_

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Re: Hubble's Days Are Numbered

2003-08-01 Thread Jan Coffey


--- Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/hubble_future_0306731.html
 
 Despite pleas from a parade of astronomers that NASA consider extending the
 life and capabilities of the Hubble Space Telescope (HST), the U.S. space
 agency appears unlikely to change its plans to deorbit the space borne
 astronomy platform in 2010.
 

Frelling Dren!

=
_
   Jan William Coffey
_

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RE: Life and Death

2003-08-01 Thread Ritu


Doug Pensinger wrote:

 So new life and the awful specter of death.  Does one offset the
other? 

I don't think so. The pain of the loss is always there but one accepts
it, focuses on life and one day, the pain recedes.
  
It does sound like she is stabilising though. Good luck. :)

Ritu


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RE: Seth Finkelstein on 16 words

2003-08-01 Thread Ritu

Dan Minette wrote:

 Given the fact that people in the British
 intelligence have indicated that Blair overstated their case and the
fact
 that people in the US intelligence have indicated that Bush did; the
most
 logical conclusion is that Bush and Blair, together, got more
certainity
 out of the intelligence than was there in the first place.

And from what I read yesterday, people in the British Intelligence are
also saying that the CIA told No.10 to not use the 45 minutes claim.
That apparently is what is at the heart of the Kelly controversy.

Ritu



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Re: fight hte evil of price discrimination

2003-08-01 Thread Kevin Tarr

At 10:23 PM 7/31/2003 -0400, you wrote:
 Except, when a right winger makes an innocuous statement and the left wing
 media huffs and puffs until they blow the  issue up into whatever slight
 they feel gets them the best press.

So liberals aren't perfect. Never said they are. Although I bet some of the
statements you characterize as innocuous are actually more pernicious than
you'd like to admit.


Tom Beck


If you are going to make damning statements painting conservatives with a 
broad brush, then I'll do the same with liberals. But of course you can't 
stop, you have to bet that my judgement of some statements is not without 
bias. Physician, heal thyself.

Kevin T. - VRWC

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Re: fight hte evil of price discrimination

2003-08-01 Thread TomFODW

 Let's see Tom condemn Katha
 Pollit once in a while.
 
I'm not sure who she is, sorry.

 
 When Noam Chomsky says things equally bad - or worse -
 our liberal friends like Tom tell us that even
 criticizing them is censorship.
 
I haven't said anything about him here, and I don't have to please you, but I 
think he's an extremist and I definitely don't agree with much of what he 
writes. 






Tom Beck

www.prydonians.org
www.mercerjewishsingles.org

I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the 
last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle
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Re: Irregulars question: Milky Way

2003-08-01 Thread Alberto Monteiro


Ronn!Blankenship wrote:

The normal direction of rotation is in the sense that the spiral arms would
seem to be winding up tighter, e.g.:


   

 /¯¯\
/\
   |   /¯\
   |  |   |
   |   \_§¯\  |
\   | |
  \/  |
  \  /
   \/




Ok, so that's what my intuition would say, as if the spiral arms
were lines that got distorted.


(Try looking at that in a fixed-width font.)

(did :-). )

However, there's at least one spiral galaxy which apparently rotates
backwards:
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/releases/2002/release_2002_33.html

!!!


 [I guess the spiral arms would rotate faster
 closer to the center]

 No!

No? The only way they could rotate angularly faster in
the borders was if the density of matter increased with
the distance from the center.

http://aether.lbl.gov/www/projects/neutrino/agn/rotation_curve.html

In fact, the fact that the rotation curve is nearly flat is one of the main
reasons astronomers must assume the existence of dark matter:

Rotation in angular speed or linear speed?


Disclaimer:  Unless specifically stated otherwise, any opinions contained
herein are the personal opinions of the author and do not represent the
official position of the University of Montevallo.

Chicken!!! Can't you put an ex-cathedra before and
another /ex-cathedra after to show that you are infallible? :-)

Alberto Monteiro


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Re: Seth Finkelstein on 16 words

2003-08-01 Thread Gautam Mukunda

--- Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 And the problem is that you never know until after
 it has happened which 
 seemingly innocuous detail may be enough to get an
 asset (= person) 
 killed, which not only may be something you as a
 human being feel 
 responsible for, but it cuts off your source of
 possible future information 
 and alerts the enemy to the fact that you have been
 spying on them and 
 gives them a pretty good idea of what information
 may have been compromised 
 (= the information that asset had access to).
 
 
 --Ronn! :)

In fact, there's a recent and very relevant example of
that.  Just after Pres. Clinton launched his cruise
missile attack and attempt to kill Bin Laden (which
failed) he defended the timing by saying that we had
satellite intercepts stating that was Bin Laden's
position.  Unsurprisingly, from that moment on Bin
Laden never used his satellite phone again - depriving
us of one of our chief sources of intelligence on him.

=
Gautam Mukunda
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Freedom is not free
http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com

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dyslexia and tinted lenses

2003-08-01 Thread Sonja van Baardwijk

Last week I've seen a BBC documentary on a single parent family with 7 
kids. Of these 7, 4 kids (the boys) had various hereditary 
disfunctions/diseases/handicaps. One thing they had in common was that 
they all had autism in one form or another, with dyslexia being just one 
of the problems that having autism can result in. (not sure this is 
gramatically correct or even makes sense :o)) I found the documentary 
give a rather refreshing view on autism and how this can affect family 
life.
(See www.bbc.co.uk/ouch, the Jackson family for info)

But the reason I mention this at all is that there was something about 
amazing improvements of the dislexia for these boys by using differently 
coloured lenses.

from: http://www.bbc.co.uk/ouch/tvradio/autism/specs.shtml
Some people with visual dyslexia have found that altering the light in a 
room using specially tinted lenses can lessen their reading difficulties.

There are a number of links to other sites mentioning this as well, 
especially
http://www.visualdyslexia.com/

Sonja :o)
GCU: Helping hand
xGCU: Don't chop it off
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Re: Irregulars question: Milky Way

2003-08-01 Thread Ray Ludenia

Doug Pensinger wrote:

 Ronn!Blankenship wrote:
 
 However, there's at least one spiral galaxy which apparently rotates
 backwards:
 http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/releases/2002/release_2002_33.html
 
 Must be in the Southern Hemisphere.

Nah, only if it's upside-down.

Regards, Ray.

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RE: Hubble's Days Are Numbered

2003-08-01 Thread Chad Cooper

Nothing more than sensationalism They are planning to put a replacement
telescope satellite beforehand...
Hubble is dead, long live Hubble

http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_awst_story.jsp?id=news/07073to
p.xml

The competition to build the James Webb Space Telescope ended last year
with the selection of a contracting team headed by Northrop Grumman Space
Technology. Eight years from now, an Ariane 5 is expected to boost the
5,400-kg. (11,880-lb.) observatory toward the second Lagrangian point (L2),
1.5 million km. (930,000 mi.) beyond Earth's orbit. There, the Sun and Earth
will be on a relatively straight line with the satellite, which minimizes
the effects of their light on its optics, and their gravitational pull will
be pretty much in balance, giving it a relatively benign parking spot. 


L2 OFFERS THE closest practical orbit for the deep space cold soak that the
telescope needs. To assure a temperature range of 30-35K, the telescope and
its Integrated Science Instrument Module (ISIM) will be shielded from
sunlight by a five-layer sunshield as big as two tennis courts. In this
cold, its infrared detectors will be so sensitive that they can chase the
red-shifted light of receding time as far back as the start of time itself,
back some 14 billion years to the moment when astronomers think the Big Bang
went bang. 


Astronomers call these first moments of creation the dark ages because no
observatory has been powerful enough to penetrate them. What scientists know
about the opening scenes of time is theory; they haven't seen the enactment.



Cl... Perhaps they'll see God at U 0,0,0.
Chad


-Original Message-
From: Robert Seeberger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 9:49 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Hubble's Days Are Numbered


http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/hubble_futur
e_0306731.html

Despite pleas from a parade of astronomers that NASA consider 
extending the
life and capabilities of the Hubble Space Telescope (HST), the 
U.S. space
agency appears unlikely to change its plans to deorbit the space borne
astronomy platform in 2010.

More

xponent
Plan The Funeral Maru
rob


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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective list-subscribers

2003-08-01 Thread Ray Ludenia

Jan Coffey wrote:

 Wouldn't you have a chip on your shoulder after a while as well? You know,
 having a chip on your shoulder doesn't mean there is anything wrong with you.

Actually, having a chip on both shoulders is better. It keeps one balanced.
Choc-chips are good.

Regards, Ray.

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Re: Irregulars question: Milky Way

At 12:45 AM 8/2/03 +1000, Ray Ludenia wrote:
Doug Pensinger wrote:

 Ronn!Blankenship wrote:

 However, there's at least one spiral galaxy which apparently rotates
 backwards:
 http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/releases/2002/release_2002_33.html

 Must be in the Southern Hemisphere.
Nah, only if it's upside-down.


Another would-be astronomical comic heard from . . .

;-)



-- Ronn!  :)

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RE: Hubble's Days Are Numbered

At 07:47 AM 8/1/03 -0700, Chad Cooper wrote:
Nothing more than sensationalism They are planning to put a replacement
telescope satellite beforehand...


Actually, IIRC, the Webb telescope is not supposed to be launched until at 
least 2012, and we all know how likely launch dates are to be delayed.  The 
main problem with keeping Hubble in service until after the Webb telescope 
is in place is that doing so would cost about $150 million each year.

A further point to consider is that, while Hubble is able to take pictures 
of distant objects inside our solar system, Webb will not be able to look 
at anything except objects beyond our solar system, as it will be unable to 
track moving objects like planets.



-- Ronn!  :)

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Re: Hubble's Days Are Numbered

2003-08-01 Thread Alberto Monteiro

Ronn Blankenship wrote: 
 
 The main problem with keeping Hubble in service until 
 after the Webb telescope is in place is that doing so 
 would cost about $150 million each year. 
 
??? 
 
Where does this number come from? 
 
I would argue for something 100 times less expensive. 
 
Alberto Monteiro 
 
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Bad Spelars

I've been following the mislabled thread on spelling and dysxia with some
interest.  My spelling is horrid, I've been gigged for it ever since I've
been on the list.  However, I've not taken insult for it because I
generally consider the gigging to be good natured.  Obviously, Erik is an
exception to this, but since he seems to be able to find something wrong
with just about everyone who differs with him, I don't take his insults too
seriously.  If Gautam or Julia or Rob or Debbie, or many other folks were
to consider my thoughts to be way off base, I'd take it a lot more
seriously.

So, my unsolicited advise to you Jan is that, by Erik insulting you as he
has, he has initiated you in a club that contains some pretty decent
members.  Unfortunately, since it isn't very exclusive, it may not be
prestigeous.

Outside of that context, Ritu's statement would probably have been taken
for either a genuine question, or a gentle gig, far gentler, in fact, than
the type Ronn would give meand I think Ronn's gigging me is usually
pretty funny.

On bad spelling and trouble memorizing being signs of dyslexia, I'm not so
sure.  I definately remember ideas better than facts, and my bad spelling
is well documented.  But, I'm also a sped redder, with very high
comprehention.  Indeed, on the SATs I scored in the top % for reading
comprehension.  My GRE score was lower, ~93 percentile, but that's not all
that bad.

So, I'm not so sure about the expanded meaning of dyslexia.

Dan M.


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Re: Bad Spelars

On Fri, Aug 01, 2003 at 11:07:35AM -0500, Dan Minette wrote:

 I've been following the mislabled thread on spelling and dysxia with
 some interest.  My spelling is horrid,

Apparently your reading comprehension isn't so good either, Dan.

 So, my unsolicited advise to you Jan is that, by Erik insulting you as
 he has,

Your statement suggests that you totally misunderstand the thread you
are discussing. Maybe you should try to pay attention to the meaning of
the threads you are replying to, Dan, rather than only looking at things
superficially (like you are accusing me of doing w.r.t. spelling).

By the way, it is interesting to note my reply when I was corrected
for using theory when hypothesis would be more precise, and Jan's
reaction when a certain phrase he used against someone else was turned
back on him.


-- 
Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.erikreuter.net/
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Re: Bad Spelars

- Original Message -
From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: Bad Spelars

 On Fri, Aug 01, 2003 at 11:07:35AM -0500, Dan Minette wrote:

  I've been following the mislabled thread on spelling and dysxia with
  some interest.  My spelling is horrid,

 Apparently your reading comprehension isn't so good either, Dan.

  So, my unsolicited advise to you Jan is that, by Erik insulting you as
  he has,

 Your statement suggests that you totally misunderstand the thread you
 are discussing. Maybe you should try to pay attention to the meaning of
 the threads you are replying to, Dan, rather than only looking at things
 superficially (like you are accusing me of doing w.r.t. spelling).

Let me put forth a hypothesis to you.  Differing with you doesn't mean that
people misunderstand.

Dan M.

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Re: Hubble's Days Are Numbered

At 12:49 PM 8/1/03 -0300, Alberto Monteiro wrote:
Ronn Blankenship wrote:

 The main problem with keeping Hubble in service until
 after the Webb telescope is in place is that doing so
 would cost about $150 million each year.

???
Where does this number come from?


quote

HUBBLE SUPPORTERS REQUEST THREE-YEAR PROJECT EXTENSION
from The Baltimore Sun
WASHINGTON - Supporters of the Hubble Space Telescope asked NASA yesterday
to extend its life for three years beyond the shutdown date of 2010 - at a
cost of at least $150 million a year.
Steven V.W. Beckwith, director of the Space Telescope Science Institute at
the Johns Hopkins University, which operates the instrument, told a
National Aeronautics and Space Administration panel the money will ensure
that Hubble continues to capture pictures that help scientists unravel
mysteries about the origin and nature of the universe.
It's up there, it works well and it's pretty easy to service it, Beckwith
told a group of astronomers and planetary scientists appointed to look into
Hubble's future.
But there was far from unanimous agreement on extending Hubble's life.
http://www.sunspot.net/news/local/howard/bal-ho.te.hubble01aug01.story
unquote



I would argue for something 100 times less expensive.


Perhaps you should put in a bid to NASA to run it, then . . .



-- Ronn!  :)

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Re: fight hte evil of price discrimination

2003-08-01 Thread The Fool

 From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 --- Kevin Tarr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Except, when a right winger makes an innocuous
  statement and the left wing 
  media huffs and puffs until they blow the  issue up
  into whatever slight 
  they feel gets them the best press.
  
  Kevin T. - VRWC
 
 _Also_ when a right-winger - like Coulter or Robertson
 - says something offensive or insane, it's the _right_
 that goes after them.  Coulter has been attacked in
 National Review.  Andrew Sullivan led the attack on
 Pat Robertson.  The right at least makes some effort
 to reject its extremists.  Let's see Tom condemn Katha
 Pollit once in a while.

Who?  Never heard of him.  Coulter also gets super-star privledges on
faux news where extremist right-wing 'news' people defend her. 

 When Noam Chomsky says things equally bad - or worse -
 our liberal friends like Tom tell us that even
 criticizing them is censorship.

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Re: Hubble's Days Are Numbered

2003-08-01 Thread Alberto Monteiro

 
Ronn Blankenship wrote: 
 
 The main problem with keeping Hubble in service until 
 after the Webb telescope is in place is that doing so 
 would cost about $150 million each year. 
 
 ??? 
 
 Where does this number come from? 
  
 quote 
 (...) at a cost of at least $150 million a year. 
 unquote 
  
It still doesn't make sense. Is it the cost of 
_getting_ and processing the images? If so, then 
it's not the cost of operating the thing, but the 
cost of the scientific output it produces - which 
will be almost the same if you replace it by a newer 
model. 
 
  
 I would argue for something 100 times less expensive. 
  
 Perhaps you should put in a bid to NASA to run it, then . . . 
  
Who me? A dangerous alien? I might use it to spy the 
USA and sell the information to North Korea! 
 
Alberto Monteiro 
 
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Re: Bad Spelars

On Fri, Aug 01, 2003 at 11:31:08AM -0500, Dan Minette wrote:

 Let me put forth a hypothesis to you.  Differing with you doesn't mean
 that people misunderstand.

In that case, you were writing imprecisely. Your meaning would have
been clearer if you wrote unintended insult, since my posts were
intended as constructive criticism rather than an insult (in most cases,
insult implies intent). If you did in fact understand what I meant, but
disagreed with my methods, then you did not express yourself well.


-- 
Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.erikreuter.net/
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Counterproductive Pursuits

Earlier, I posited on this List that advocates of homosexual acceptance would find 
that making their gains through the Courts instead of through Legislatures would be as 
counterproductive towards their ultimate goal as it was for abortion-activists who 
similarly pursued their goals through the courts instead of legislatures...   Here is 
the first evidence of that effect:

 http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/showcase/la-na-gay1aug01.story

August 1, 2003   

Foes of Gay Marriage Claim New Momentum
  
Gay Marriage Is Immoral, Vatican Says
August 1, 2003  
  
By Elizabeth Shogren, Times Staff Writer


WASHINGTON — When the Supreme Court in June struck down laws that made gay sex a 
crime, gay activists celebrated what they viewed as a major step toward wider social 
acceptance.

Five weeks later, that same court ruling has energized and broadened support for what 
had been a largely lifeless effort to fight the establishment of gay marriage in the 
United States.



Read the article on abortion that generated these ideas for me here, if available:
 http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=1534731
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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies

2003-08-01 Thread Jean-Louis Couturier

At 19:27 2003-07-31 -0500, Ronn! wrote:
At 10:20 AM 8/1/03 +1000, Russell Chapman wrote:
Jan Coffey wrote:

Loo-tin-at Ker-nal.
Leftennant Kernal for those of us who recognise Queen Elizabeth II.

If Lieutenant is a french word, we say leftennant and USA'ns say 
Lootenant, what do the French say?
Lieutenant.
You can approximate it with LEE, followed by the U sound in hurt, then
the T, skip the e and the nant copuld be pronounced as in english, stopping
before the NT.  In other words don't say NAY, but NAnt, keeping the last two
sounds silent.
The tonal accent would be over the EU.

oui -- soo -- ren -- der

;-)
What's seal in french?
:-p
Jean-Louis Don't answer that Couturier 

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Diebold claims it's fraud enabled voting machines are 'secure' [L3]

2003-08-01 Thread The Fool

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0307/S00224.htm

Diebold's Press Release In Response To Johns Hopkins Report
- Technical Response To The Johns Hopkins Study  25 July


**
1. SYNOPSIS OF THE STORY SO FAR

Diebold voting machines are used in 37 states. Four computer scientists
published a 24-page paper last week, announcing stunning flaws that
appear to make vote-tampering easy.

DIEBOLD REBUTTAL: We believe that the [voting machine] software code
they evaluated, while sharing similarities to the current code, is
outdated and never was used in an actual election. the study did not
use our current software code. http://www.dieboldes.com. 

YES, the code examined by the scientists was used in actual elections.
Evidence is provided below, along with questions you can ask Diebold to
clarify their statement. 

QUICK RECAP: The first-ever public examination of voting machine
software, obtained when Diebold left it in the open on an obscure but
public web site, revealed stunning flaws. Our analysis shows that this
voting system is far below even the most minimal security standards
applicable in other contexts. -- Researchers from Johns Hopkins and Rice
Universities, (already tagged as the Hopkins Heroes) in paper just
released: Analysis of an Electronic Voting System
http://avirubin.com/vote.pdf . Remote access has been left unprotected,
encryption keys made available to hackers, you can vote more than once.
There's more: http://www.blackboxvoting.org/access-diebold.htm -- You can
overwrite votes. The system is vulnerable to both inside and outside
attacks. Intruders can change audit logs. You can assign passwords to all
your friends. (A list of links to news articles from last week is
available at: http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0307/S00219.htm )

HOW TO STAY AWAY FROM TECHNOBABBLE: For general audiences, this is a
story that might evolve into intimidating bafflegarb, but it doesn't have
to, and here's why: Not everyone understands discussions about computer
languages, but everyone knows what a cover up is. First, decide whether
Diebold gives honest and complete answers. 

-- RETURN TO PAGE CONTENTS


*
SEE SCOOP'S FULL COVERAGE OF:

A VERY AMERICAN COUP

*

2. DEBUNKING THE DIEBOLD REBUTTALS

Diebold and two state elections officials have come up with nine
rebuttals. Most are posted on the Diebold Election Systems web site
http://www.dieboldes.com; some were statements made to the press last
week.

1) The software that's been examined is old and not used in elections

2) The research overlooked the total system of software, hardware,
services and poll worker training that has been so effective in
real-world implementations. / Used the wrong hardware. 

3) Diebold voting software is constantly updated and improved

4) Diebold software undergoes a series of certification processes

5) We have been using the systems now for a year and a half, with great
success.

6) The touch screens are never connected to the Internet or a public
network, eliminating risk by remote access.

7) If there is a failure or a compromise of one unit, we go get everyone
and ask them to vote again. (From Maryland official). 

8) The system could be manipulated only by someone who brought a laptop
to the voting booth and modified the voting machine. (From a Georgia
official)

9) The Johns Hopkins/Rice University scientists spend too much time in an
ivory tower.

-- RETURN TO PAGE CONTENTS


*
SEE SCOOP'S FULL COVERAGE OF:

A VERY AMERICAN COUP

*

3. QUICK DEBUNK:

1) The software that's been examined is old and not used in elections.
Easy to prove:

a) The FEC requires that each software version be certified.

b) The certification number is assigned by the National Association of
State Election Directors (NASED) and is accompanied by a version
number.

c) Matching version numbers are included in the source code examined by
the Hopkins Heroes.

d) In most states, it is illegal to use a software program that does not
match the certified source code. It is completely improper to have any
extra sets of source code with the same version number but different
code. The NASED-certified versions of the Diebold touch screen program
match the version numbers in the source code. Therefore, the source code
examined by the Hopkins/Rice scientists must be the same as the certified
version used in elections. 

e) Questions to ask Diebold: Please identify all versions used in
elections. Were they all certified? Can you fax me that statement? If
this software has changed, how was it changed? Which, if any, of the
flaws noted in the Analysis of an Electronic Voting System report were
fixed? How?

f) Basically, Diebold is saying pay no attention to the horrifying
stupidity of the secret source code that was examined, because now they
have new secret source code.

2) The research overlooked the total system of software, hardware,

Re: My exciting day!

John Horn wrote:
If you are looking for the short answer, you can
skip to the bottom paragraph.  If you are looking for way too much
boring detail, have I got a treat for you!  Read on, Mac Duff!  And
don't say I didn't warn you.
[actual story snipped]
So, the long and short of it is:  I'm OK.  After 5 of these damn
operations, I pretty much know what to expect.  My throat doesn't
hurt too much and I'm sure it will be better tomorrow.  Just can't
talk for a while.  Yippee.  Enough of that, I think I'll go back to
bed now.
Yikes!  I'm glad everything went well.  How did you first discover the 
granuloma?

Reggie Bautista
Nosey Maru
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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective list-subscribers

Jan wrote:
 Wouldn't you have a chip on your shoulder after a while as well? You 
know,
 having a chip on your shoulder doesn't mean there is anything wrong with 
you.
Ray replied:
Actually, having a chip on both shoulders is better. It keeps one balanced.
Choc-chips are good.
Or tortilla chips and a nice salsa with some jalapeno peppers, maybe some 
habanera peppers, a little cayenne pepper...

Reggie Bautista
Hot Is Good Maru
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Re: Austrian Flies Across English Channel

- Original Message -
From: Kevin Tarr [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 3:35 PM
Subject: Re: Austrian Flies Across English Channel

 At 11:44 PM 7/31/2003 -0500, you wrote:
 See site for picture. Amazing!

 http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/austrian_calais_030731.html

 An Austrian specializing in daring stunt jumps donned a carbon fiber
wing
 and flew across the English Channel on Thursday after being dropped from
a
 plane.
 Felix Baumgartner made the 34-kilometer (21-mile) trip in 14 minutes,
 according to Sarah Christofi, his spokeswoman.

 It's very cold up there,'' the 34-year-old Austrian said upon landing
at
 Cap Blanc-Nez, near the Channel port of Calais. ``I still can feel
 nothing.''

 Baumgartner, fitted out with a parachute, was lofted from an airplane
some
 9,144 meters (30,000 feet) above Dover.

 However, he relied solely on the 1.8-meter (5.9-foot) wing attached to
his
 back for the trip, opening his parachute west of Calais only to slow
down
 and land. He was dropped above Dover at 6:09 a.m. and landed at 6:23
a.m.,
 at one point traveling at 350 kph (217 mph) Christofi said.

 Despite the chill, Baumgartner said he felt ``great.''

 Cloud cover obscured vision, forcing Baumgartner to follow two lead
planes
 to find his way. His spaceman-like suit was equipped with cameras and
 monitoring equipment so that he could be tracked.

 The first man to parachute from Malaysia's Petronas Towers _ the world's
 tallest building _ Baumgartner said it wasn't by chance that he chose
the
 English Channel to literally try out his wing.

 The Channel fits perfectly for the performance of the wing  There's
a
 lot of spirit in this place,'' he said.

 The extreme sports fanatic recalled the 1909 flight across the Channel
of
 French aviator Louis Bleriot.

 And it's exactly 100 years ago that the Wright Brothers were doing the
 first flight with a plane,'' he said. And now I'm here, with my little
 wing.

 Americans Wilbur and Orville Wright made the first powered flight, in a
 rickety airplane, in December 1903.

 rob

 Wasn't there a person in the 80s who tried to cross the channel in a
human
 powered airplane, the pilot pedaled to turn the props?

It was the gossamer albatross and it crossed on June 12th, 1979.  I
remember that. :-)

http://www.byrongliding.com/gossamer_albatross.htm

Dan M.

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Seriously, the ones that get the most attention seem to be more extreme
one way or another. That's probably true for any group that gets
stereotyped. Except maybe Poles. I've never met a Pole anywhere close
to being as stupid as all the jokes imply. (Where'd they get that
reputation, anyway?)

As for the Polish reputation for stupidity - I have no clue whence it
originates.

from Myth: Some ethnic groups have genetically inferior IQ's.
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-inferiorIQ.htm
In the U.S., Polish Jews arriving before 1910 were also perceived as
stupid (for no other reason than they were accustomed to a different
culture and spoke another language). So many Pollock jokes arose that
Americans still tell them to this day, even if no one remembers why. The
Polish Jews suffered heavy job discrimination and suspicion of
criminality; not surprisingly, their children suffered low grades and IQ
test scores. Today, of course, many Americans hold the opposite
prejudice; Jews are viewed as the most brilliant of ethnic groups.

I however believe that it originates from somewhere before the WWs. The
'Polish' or rather more like the slavic people under German rule
(overall roman Catholics, in contrast with the large numbers of German
immigrants who usually were Lutherans) were very much considered to be
yokels in the rest of the Prussian Reich. And in general the majority of
Polish, besides being the oppressed, in the Eastern Prussian provinces
usually lacked schooling and sofistication. This was because in general
they lived as farmers in very closed rural type communities. A very nice
example of stereotype like the one of the stupid Pole is 'Soldat
Schweijk' , a movie featuring a lowely and charmingly clutzy (in this
case) czech soldier (imagine a non annoying Jerry Lewis type) who drives
his superiors in the Prussian army totally nuts in 'Inspector Clueseau
(sp?) like situations as in the Pink panther movies.

Comprehensive history of poland
http://www.polishroots.org/genpoland/eastpr.htm

That and the history of the 'souvereign' 'country' of Poland. I believe
that from the day the Kingdom of Poland was proclaimed (1226), up untill
somewhere in the 1989 the whole country or parts of it have almost
continuously been occupied by one foreign power or another. ;o) So
Polish people were oppressed by an awfull lot of different peoples and
therefore probably the target of racially tinted jokes for a very long
time. (see also Jokes and stereotypes
http://www.allangould.com/magazines/somefavourites/racisthumor/magazines_somefavourites_racisthumour.html)

Sonja :o)
link 1: http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-inferiorIQ.htm
link 2: http://www.polishroots.org/genpoland/eastpr.htm
link 3: http://makeashorterlink.com/?Y2A421675
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Re: Life and Death

Doug Pensinger wrote:
 
 Julia Thompson wrote:
  Doug Pensinger wrote:
 
  So, in the back of my head, I'm wondering if there's a possibility that
  my father-in-law just isn't going to ever get to see these two new
  grandchildren in person.  And that saddens me greatly.  But we're most
  worried about my mother-in-law; I think my father-in-law can handle his
  own death a lot more easily than she can.
 
 
 I sure hope he beats it.  I'm not quite a grandparent yet, but I'm
 looking forward to the experience.  To be denied seeing my son's
 twins - devastating.  But if he beats it, all the more awesome.

We're hoping so, as well.

I will be *so* thankful at Thanksgiving if he makes it out here then.

My MIL has been thinking that maybe she'd like to move back to Austin
(she grew up near here), but had all sorts of concerns.  Of course, all
of our conversations took place before the cancer diagnosis; but if he
beats it and she's still thinking about it early next year, I'm going to
encourage it.  That way, they'll both be able to see their grandchildren
at least weekly, and I'll have someone around that I wouldn't feel as
guilty calling for help when I need it.  :)  Two of her sisters are
living here, and her brother may be moving here later this year, so
there will be plenty of family around.

Julia
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Re: Salt on your wounds

Steve Sloan II wrote:
 
 Julia Thompson wrote:
 
   I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but I
   stopped getting leg cramps when I upped my calcium
   consumption.  (I'm supposed to get at least 180% of the
   US recommended daily allowance of calcium each day.)
 
 So, based on simple math, each baby consumes roughly 40% of
 the adult RDA of calcium... give or take whatever Sammy gets
 from milk. :-)

Sammy was weaned before I got pregnant.  :)  He's getting his calcium
from yogurt.  Doesn't like to drink milk, doesn't really like to drink
juice, sucks down water at a terrific rate.  (Keeps stains on the
carpets down to a minimum, at least)

I'm not sure just how much calicum the babies are actually consuming,
but dumping more into the system than is necessary and letting various
systems filter it out seems to work.  I just have to be sure to drink
enough *water*, as well.

The Big 3 nutrients I was told to concentrate on making sure I got
enough of are protein, calcium and iron.  I try to have a reasonably
balanced diet on top of that, and get at least one non-juice serving of
fruit every day, and some veggies, as well.  And the babies *are*
growing.  (The measurements from last week's ultrasound had them around
or above the 90th percentile for weight for a twin of the appropriate
gestation age, so we may be looking at big twins when they arrive)

Julia
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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective list-subscribers

Ray Ludenia wrote:
 
 Jan Coffey wrote:
 
  Wouldn't you have a chip on your shoulder after a while as well? You know,
  having a chip on your shoulder doesn't mean there is anything wrong with you.
 
 Actually, having a chip on both shoulders is better. It keeps one balanced.
 Choc-chips are good.

OK, how is the balance between a chocolate chip on one shoulder and a
butterscotch chip on the other, if they're of the same mass?  :)

julia
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Re: fight hte evil of price discrimination

Russell Chapman wrote:
 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 As for the Polish reputation for stupidity - I have no clue whence it
 originates.
 
 It's certainly not international - we never have Pole/Polack/Polish
 jokes, but all the same jokes refer to Irish folk. Maybe somewhere in
 the world a bunch of friends are sitting around talking about the Aussie
 terrorist burning his lips blowing up the bus, or sinking an Aussie
 submarine by knocking on the door...

I'm not sure about that.

What both the Poles in the US and the Irish in Australia have in common
is that both groups came to the new country and were a looked-down-upon
minority when they arrived.  Maybe that has more to do with it than
anything else.

Julia
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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective list-subscribers

--- Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Doug Pensinger wrote:
  Julia Thompson wrote:

   Hm.  After a bit of thinking, I have:
  
   1)  Automatically assumes that anyone
disagreeing on a particular point takes the *extreme*
position in the direction of the disagreement.
  
   2)  Assumes that everyone else thinks the way
 they do, and has the same strengths and weaknesses,
as well.
  
   3)  Has a chip on the shoulder about some
 particular issue.
  
   That's all I have so far.  Anyone else?
  
  4) Jumps into a thread with highly opinionated
 and/or confrontational responses without having read
most of the previous responses.
 
 Good one.
 
 That plus Jean-Louis's suggestion of When reading a
 post that describes
 situation similar to one's own, subscriber assumes
 post is a personal attack makes 5, looks like.

Jan's shortened version:  Improperly taking threads
personally.


What about Assumes that anyone disagreeing with their
position is either ignorant, stupid or deliberately
obtuse.?

Debbi
Please Don't Make One Excessive Silliness Maru  ;D

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microsoft.com down due to DDOS?

2003-08-01 Thread Miller, Jeffrey

http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/08/01/HNmsdos_1.html

I'm usually last to slam MS, but the fact that they have to investigate a report 
that their website is being DDOS'd is not an encouraging sign.

(oh yeah.. and I'm back from GenCon.. whew!)

-j-

--
A: Because it reverses the normal flow of conversation.
Q: Why is top posting a bad idea? 
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Re: fight hte evil of price discrimination

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Let's see Tom condemn Katha
  Pollit once in a while.
 
 I'm not sure who she is, sorry.
 
 
  When Noam Chomsky says things equally bad - or worse -
  our liberal friends like Tom tell us that even
  criticizing them is censorship.
 
 I haven't said anything about him here, and I don't have to please you, but I
 think he's an extremist and I definitely don't agree with much of what he
 writes.

I've spent time around people who think he is IT, and they're further
out to the left than Tom seems to be.  I haven't actually read anything
of his, just gotten various impressions from people around me who have,
and I'm not sure I want to spend much time reading him in the next, say,
5 years.

What Tom just said just reinforces that thought.

Julia
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Re: [Listref] Childhood obesity - changing the culture

I'm catching up on posts I was supposed to reply to...

--- Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Deborah Harrell wrote:
snip 
  Debbi
  Grow Your Own! (Veggies  Herbs) Maru
 
 What do you do with a kid who won't eat cake or ice
 cream, but who loves
 toast made with sugar-free whole-wheat bread?  :) 
 And who prefers to
 drink water rather than apple juice?
 
   Julia
 
 yes, Sammy *is* that weird, but he also prefers meat
 to veggies, and
 it's damn near *impossible* to get anything green
 into him right now

A) Thank your lucky stars!  :)
B) Maybe disguise the veggies in cheese sauce?  Or go
for your orange and red varieties: stuff with tomato
sauce, carrots...funny how so many toddlers hate
veggies!  I think it has to do with how tastebuds
really do change as we age (I certainly hated brussel
sprouts as a kid, but have actually had cravings for
them on rare occasions as an adult) - they don't
tolerate 'bitter' and frequently hate 'hot' as well.

Religious Experiencetm Salsa 'Hot' Maru  ;)

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Intent and language

- Original Message -
From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: Bad Spelars

 On Fri, Aug 01, 2003 at 11:31:08AM -0500, Dan Minette wrote:

  Let me put forth a hypothesis to you.  Differing with you doesn't mean
  that people misunderstand.

 In that case, you were writing imprecisely. Your meaning would have
 been clearer if you wrote unintended insult, since my posts were
 intended as constructive criticism rather than an insult (in most cases,
 insult implies intent). If you did in fact understand what I meant, but
 disagreed with my methods, then you did not express yourself well.

One of the interesting things about conversations with other people is that
we cannot perceive as others perceive.  We perceive language, we perceive
body language, we perceive tone.  Over the internet, we perceive just the
language itself; with occasional extensions such as  :-).

I really don't know what your intent is; all I know is that you have
written a number of posts.  I match these posts against the language
conventions that I'm familiar with to try to parse meaning out of those
sentences.  Without tone and without body language, the process is
complicated.

Even on the internet, social etiquette has been developed.  One of the
reasons for this it helps reduce ambiguity in statements.  One part of the
brin-l etiquette guidelines is discuss the idea, not the person.  It is
not insulting to say this idea has holes in it.  It is insulting to say
you don't think very well.

I have gone over your posts to make sure my memory wasn't faulty, and I do
see a great number of you ...some negative statements.  Things like you
think wrong, you have let yourself fall in a trap, etc.  It appears that
you are now arguing that you are really very concerned for the flaws in all
of our thinking and really really wish to help us think clearer.

This might be a worthwhile attitude for a mentor, a teacher, a parent, a
therapist, or some other authority figure.  But, I'd like to suggest that
in a dialog between peers it is much more worthwhile to leave analysis of
another posters failings to conversations with one's spouse or other RL
friends.  Limiting the discussion to the ideas that are presented helps,
not only because it lowers the negative emotions associated with statements
about personal failings or limitations sprinkled through a post, but
because it provides opportunities for fruitful dialog.

Indeed, going back to people that are in a position where they need to
confront personal difficulties, the techniques I've seen you use here are
the very ones we are told not to use if we are to be effective.  Instead of
you think wrong, one would say there are some difficulties with your
argument.  Criticize the behavior, not the person is a solid rule for any
parent.

So, in short, the language that you've used is language that is
conventionally taken to be insulting.  I really don't buy the idea that you
just wish to point out the myriad of flaws that everyone else has as a good
one.  Even if it were your intent, which I have no way of determining, it
doesn't work.  I'll be happy to not judge you because I don't know your
intent, but that doesn't stop the language from being insulting.

So, while I'll be happy to take on faith the proposition that you did not
deliberately try to hurt other people, I do think that one does have
responsibility for deliberately eschewing conventions for avoiding insults
to other people. (The posts you've made arguing against these conventions
has led me to believe that your refraining from following them is a
deliberate act.)   I don't see why accepting these conventions, if one
really doesn't want to insult others, is harmful.

Dan M.

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Re: [Listref] Childhood obesity - changing the culture

Deborah Harrell wrote:
 
 I'm catching up on posts I was supposed to reply to...
 
 --- Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Deborah Harrell wrote:
 snip
   Debbi
   Grow Your Own! (Veggies  Herbs) Maru
 
  What do you do with a kid who won't eat cake or ice
  cream, but who loves
  toast made with sugar-free whole-wheat bread?  :)
  And who prefers to
  drink water rather than apple juice?
 
Julia
 
  yes, Sammy *is* that weird, but he also prefers meat
  to veggies, and
  it's damn near *impossible* to get anything green
  into him right now
 
 A) Thank your lucky stars!  :)

I've been doing that.  (He's also shown very little interest in
chocolate.  I figure there's plenty of time for him to catch up on that
one later  In the meantime, whatever caffeine may be in the
chocolate isn't getting into *him*, at least!)

 B) Maybe disguise the veggies in cheese sauce?  Or go
 for your orange and red varieties: stuff with tomato
 sauce, carrots...funny how so many toddlers hate
 veggies!  I think it has to do with how tastebuds
 really do change as we age (I certainly hated brussel
 sprouts as a kid, but have actually had cravings for
 them on rare occasions as an adult) - they don't
 tolerate 'bitter' and frequently hate 'hot' as well.

He likes sweet potatoes.  He is very wary of tomato sauce and ketchup
for some reason.  He handles some spiciness reasonably well (doesn't
object to eating Kimm's tofu instead of his own at Mongolian BBQ, and
she spices her food up considerably; also doesn't object to a little
ginger, garlic and black bean sauce in his own food), and handles hot
temperature fairly well as well.  What he *doesn't* like is food that's
too cold -- such as ice cream.

Anything identifiable as bread, he'll at least try.  If we're still
having veggie issues by his third birthday, I'm going to try to do
things like shred zucchini and make some bread with that, and see how
that goes.  Maybe try making pumpkin bread, as well.  (Mmmm - pumpkin!)

But green is deeply mistrusted right now.  In fact, a week ago, as the
rest of us were eating dinner and he was running around with a block, he
started banging the block on the table between his grandmother and his
daddy.  We told him twice to stop, which he did for a short while each
time, and then I made The Threat:  Sammy, if you don't stop banging
that block on the table, your daddy is going to offer you some
broccoli.  He didn't bang the block on anything else for the rest of
the meal.  Of course, he would have had the option of refusing the
broccoli, but he didn't even want to have it offered.  (If anyone wants
to criticize me on this, go ahead, I'd just appreciate it if you were
polite about it.)

I imagine he'll be interested in his share of the rolls tonight, and
have no interest in the steak, the shrimp or the broccoli  He trusts
white food more than any other color.  Pale yellow is OK, as well.  And
breaded is reasonable in his thinking, as well, but if he's not very
hungry, he'll eat only the bread and not whatever it is breaded that the
bread was to go with.

Julia
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Re: microsoft.com down due to DDOS?

2003-08-01 Thread Steve Sloan II

Miller, Jeffrey wrote:

 http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/08/01/HNmsdos_1.html

 I'm usually last to slam MS, but the fact that they have to
 investigate a report that their website is being DDOS'd is
 not an encouraging sign.
If I had to guess, I'd say that the culprit is... the
Department of Homeland Security! :-)
TechTV relayed a reminder from Homeland Security, telling
Windows users to run Windows Update, to plug a leak that
could leave a lot of computers open to a terrorist
cyber-attack. The big TechTV shows have enough viewership
to cause a slashdot effect in many of the sites they
mention. I suspect all those Update downloads did the
same thing to Microsoft's servers.
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Re: [Listref] Childhood obesity - changing the culture

2003-08-01 Thread Steve Sloan II

Julia Thompson wrote:

 But green is deeply mistrusted right now.  In fact, a week
 ago, as the rest of us were eating dinner and he was running
 around with a block, he started banging the block on the table
 between his grandmother and his daddy.  We told him twice to
 stop, which he did for a short while each time, and then I made
 The Threat:  Sammy, if you don't stop banging that block on
 the table, your daddy is going to offer you some broccoli.
 He didn't bang the block on anything else for the rest of the
 meal. Of course, he would have had the option of refusing the
broccoli, but he didn't even want to have it offered.
LOL

That threat would probably make me stop banging things on the
table, too. ;-)
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Re: [Listref] Childhood obesity - changing the culture

Julia wrote:
...and then I made The Threat:  Sammy, if you don't stop banging
that block on the table, your daddy is going to offer you some
broccoli.  He didn't bang the block on anything else for the rest of
the meal.  Of course, he would have had the option of refusing the
broccoli, but he didn't even want to have it offered.  (If anyone wants
to criticize me on this, go ahead, I'd just appreciate it if you were
polite about it.)
polite mode=on
You're very lucky you have a child to whom you can give that kind of choice 
and still trust he'll get all the various nutrients he needs.  With a couple 
of my nephews (a few years older than Sammy), if you gave them the option of 
refusing anything that was offered, they'd refuse everything except pizza 
:-)  Our general practice with them is to let them make choices, but only 
let them choose between various options that are all acceptable to us.
polite mode=off

There, how was that?  :-)

Reggie Bautista

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Re: Austrian Flies Across English Channel

2003-08-01 Thread Robert Seeberger

- Original Message - 
From: Kevin Tarr [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 3:35 PM
Subject: Re: Austrian Flies Across English Channel

 At 11:44 PM 7/31/2003 -0500, you wrote:
 See site for picture. Amazing!

 Wasn't there a person in the 80s who tried to cross the channel in a human
 powered airplane, the pilot pedaled to turn the props? The plane was
 covered with thin plastic and made with...something very light. I think he
 only got 3/4 of the way across. That impresses me more than what this
 person did. Big deal, he jumped out of an airplane. He didn't fly, he
 guided his fall.

Well, he didn't fall straight down. He glided an incredible distance with a
wing strapped to his back.
This could be a new direction in sports for adrenaline junkies.

Now I have the utmost respect for Paul MacCready, but this is the most
impressive channel crossing I know of since he made the news.

(I secretly suspect you are dissing this story because there were no pedals
involved)
G

xponent
Man Is S Creative Maru
rob

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Re: Austrian Flies Across English Channel

- Original Message -
From: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: Austrian Flies Across English Channel

 - Original Message -
 From: Kevin Tarr [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 3:35 PM
 Subject: Re: Austrian Flies Across English Channel

  At 11:44 PM 7/31/2003 -0500, you wrote:
  See site for picture. Amazing!

  Wasn't there a person in the 80s who tried to cross the channel in a
human
  powered airplane, the pilot pedaled to turn the props? The plane was
  covered with thin plastic and made with...something very light. I think
he
  only got 3/4 of the way across. That impresses me more than what this
  person did. Big deal, he jumped out of an airplane. He didn't fly, he
  guided his fall.

 Well, he didn't fall straight down. He glided an incredible distance with
a
 wing strapped to his back.

Yea, but its not flying; its falling with style. :-)

Dan M.

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Re: Life and Death

Julia wrote:
My MIL has been thinking that maybe she'd like to move back to Austin
(she grew up near here), ...[snip] ...  Two of her sisters are
living here, and her brother may be moving here later this year, so
there will be plenty of family around.
It's always nice to have lots of family around.  I'm the youngest of six.  
Both of my sisters live in the KC area, but all three of my older brothers 
live outside of KC, at least most of the time (long story).  It's pretty 
hard to get us all together for Thanksgiving or Christmas or other major 
events.

But everyone is going to be here tomorrow evening, and we're getting 
together to celebrate my father's 75th birthday.  Should be fun :-)

Reggie Bautista

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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies

Jon Gabriel wrote:
Never give up!  Never surrender!

(Kudos if you can name the reference.) ;-)
For some reason, even after I saw that this was from Galaxy Quest, I kept 
thinking I had heard it in Babylon 5 as well, but I think the actual B5 
reference is No surrender, no retreat.

Reggie Bautista

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Re: Polish, stupidity myth

Sonja wrote:
link 1: http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-inferiorIQ.htm
link 2: http://www.polishroots.org/genpoland/eastpr.htm
link 3: http://makeashorterlink.com/?Y2A421675
Thanks for the great research on this!  I had assumed that it had something 
to do with a war incident I dimly remember my Dad telling me about which 
resulted in a big loss for the Polish military, and just hadn't taken the 
time to look it up.  My bad.

Reggie Bautista
Sometimes Lazy Maru
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Re: Austrian Flies Across English Channel

At 03:55 PM 8/1/2003 -0500 Dan Minette wrote:
It was the gossamer albatross and it crossed on June 12th, 1979.  I
remember that. :-)

http://www.byrongliding.com/gossamer_albatross.htm

It is currently on display just down the street from me at the Air and
Space Museum.

JDG
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Re: republicans and Hate

At 12:33 PM 8/1/2003 -0500 The Fool wrote:
http://www.azdailysun.com/non_sec/nav_includes/story.cfm?storyID=70413

Christian group sues governor over discrimination order
 
By BETH DeFALCO
Associated Press Writer
07/30/2003
 
PHOENIX (AP) -- Three Republican legislators and a Christian group
challenged an executive order barring employment discrimination based on
sexual orientation in some state agencies. 

Out of curiosity, could you make your subjec lines more descriptive and
less polemic?It would greatly help me file our articles for future
reference.

Thanks.

JDG
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Re: Salt on your wounds

Julia wrote:
(The measurements from last week's ultrasound had them around
or above the 90th percentile for weight for a twin of the appropriate
gestation age, so we may be looking at big twins when they arrive)
I used to listen a lot to a singer named Sandi Patty.  She recorded what is 
arguably her best album (in my opinion, it's her best by far both in terms 
of her singing and in terms of song choice, arrangements, etc.), while she 
was pregnant with fraternal twins.  At birth, one of the twins weighed over 
nine pounds and the other weighed over 8 pounds (sorry, I don't remember the 
exact number of ounces, that was 15 years ago or more).

Reggie Bautista

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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective list-subscribers

On Fri, Aug 01, 2003 at 02:23:40PM -0700, Deborah Harrell wrote:

 What about Assumes that anyone disagreeing with their position is
 either ignorant, stupid or deliberately obtuse.?

What about, Acts passively agressive and disingenuously politically
correct?


-- 
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Re: Intent and language

On Fri, Aug 01, 2003 at 05:21:49PM -0500, Dan Minette wrote:

 I have gone over your posts to make sure my memory wasn't faulty, and
 I do see a great number of you ...some negative statements.  Things
 like you think wrong, you have let yourself fall in a trap, etc.
 It appears that you are now arguing that you are really very concerned
 for the flaws in all of our thinking and really really wish to help us
 think clearer.

Again, you misunderstand what I wrote in the thread under
discussion. Are you again going to claim that it was not
misunderstanding? I did not argue any such generality in this thread. I
was talking specifically about the thread with Jan. You STILL have
not made any comment indicating that you understood the exchange, but
disagreed with my methods (yes, the latter is clear, but the former is
not).

irony
As for the rest of the comments that were written in the message I am
replying to, I, like David Brin, find passive agressiveness much more
disagreeable than sarcasm or straightforwardness, which I (and others)
often employ.  Some people portray themselves as email list social
experts, but I haven't forgotten that such people were at the center of
the list's biggest falling out where we lost not only David Brin for a
long time, but a number of other long time list members as well. Now
would be a good time to make a passive aggressive comment about how I am
trying to gig people :-\ 
/irony

 Limiting the discussion to the ideas that are presented helps,

sarcasm
I see. Like commenting on someone's educational background in the middle
of a discussion about something else.
/sarcasm

 Instead of you think wrong, one would say there are some
 difficulties with your argument.

One COULD say that. If one were disingenuous and trying to be
politically correct instead of straightforward and honest.


-- 
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Re: Harry Potter 5 (no spoilers)

Russell wrote:
A lot of this is simply the context the books are written in - it is 
entirely from Harry's perspective. I can't think of any narration that 
occurs outside Harry's observation, and Harry only associates himself with 
the good guys. Draco, Dolores, Lucius et al probably have quite interesting 
multi-dimensional lives, but Harry never sees any of that because of his 
limited contact with them, whereas he has deep and meaningful discussions 
with the good guys on a regular basis.
The Inner Life of Draco Malfoy... God, what a scary thought ;-)  But that's 
definitely a good observation, I had not thought of it that way.  Now that 
Harry is getting older and having his illusions shattered, I wonder if he'll 
start to see any of those characters as more than just the bad guys.

Reggie Bautista

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Birthday Greetings to Ray Bradbury

2003-08-01 Thread John Garcia

Ray Bradbury will be 83 years old this month. The Planetary Society is 
collecting birthday wishes for an electronic card that will be 
presented to him at a Mars celebration. To post your message go to 
http://www.planetary.org/ and click on Send a Birthday Greeting to Ray 
Bradbury. And while you are there check out the Cosmos 1 mission link.

john

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NYT: Weapons of Mass Confusion

2003-08-01 Thread TomFODW

From the NY Times 
(http://nytimes.com/2003/08/01/international/worldspecial3/01CND-GORDON.html?hp  - 
free registration required):


Weapons of Mass Confusion

By MICHAEL R. GORDON

CAMP DOHA, Kuwait, Aug. 1  There is a bold and entirely plausible theory that may 
account for the mystery over Iraq's missing weapons of mass destruction.   

Saddam Hussein, the theory holds, ordered the destruction of his weapon stocks well 
before the war to deprive the United States of a rationale to attack his regime and to 
hasten the eventual lifting of the United Nations sanctions. But the Iraqi dictator 
retained the scientists and technical capacity to resume the production of chemical 
and biological weapons and eventually develop nuclear arms.

Mr. Hussein's calculation was that he could restart his weapons programs once the 
international community lost interest in Iraq and became absorbed with other crises. 
That would enable him to pursue his dream of making Iraq the dominant power in the 
Persian Gulf region and make it easier for him to deter enemies at home and abroad.

'This is the leading theory,' said Gary Samore, director of studies at the 
London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies and a former 
nonproliferation expert on the National Security Council under President Bill Clinton.

American intelligence experts are still in Iraq trying to determine the status of Mr. 
Hussein's weapons programs, so it is premature to be too categorical about what they 
will find. What the theory offers, however, is a new way to make sense of the 
testimony of captured Iraqi officials who claim that weapons stocks were eliminated, 
Mr. Hussein's pattern of grudging and partial cooperation with United Nations weapons 
inspectors and his longstanding ambitions in the region.

If true, it means that the Iraqi threat was less immediate than the administration 
asserted but more worrisome than the critics now suggest. And it means the decision to 
use military force to pre-empt that threat was not an urgent necessity but a judgment 
call, one that can be justified as the surest way to put an end to Iraq's designs but 
still one about which ardent defenders of the United States' security can disagree.

It goes on; entire URL given above for those who want to read the rest of it.


This speculation raises several questions in my mind: if Saddam destroyed his nukes - 
WHY DIDN'T HE TELL US??? That's what we wanted, after all, what we were demanding, the 
ostensible reason for the invasion. Why do what he was supposed to but not gain any 
benefit from doing so? Let us invade anyway? He's a nutcase, but I don't see how this 
makes any sense from his point of view.

Also, did we know he was doing it? (We meaning the CIA, the president, etc.) Could 
the destruction have been detected from outside Iraq's borders using spy satellites, 
etc.?

And, if we did know - did we invade anyway because the president wanted his invasion? 
(This will piss off the Bush-is-wonderful-and-so-is-the-war crowd on this list, but it 
has to be asked in light of other suggestions that the president and his chickenhawk 
warmongers either cooked the intelligence books or ignored contradictory evidence or 
both.)

-- 
Tom Beck

www.prydonians.org
www.mercerjewishsingles.org



I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - 
Dr Jerry Pournelle
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Re: Intent and language

2003-08-01 Thread Robert Seeberger

- Original Message - 
From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 7:08 PM
Subject: Re: Intent and language

 irony
 As for the rest of the comments that were written in the message I am
 replying to, I, like David Brin, find passive agressiveness much more
 disagreeable than sarcasm or straightforwardness, which I (and others)
 often employ.  Some people portray themselves as email list social
 experts, but I haven't forgotten that such people were at the center of
 the list's biggest falling out where we lost not only David Brin for a
 long time, but a number of other long time list members as well. Now
 would be a good time to make a passive aggressive comment about how I am
 trying to gig people :-\
 /irony

I think the real irony is that you have just proven me prescient at best, or
insightful at the very least.

  Limiting the discussion to the ideas that are presented helps,

 sarcasm
 I see. Like commenting on someone's educational background in the middle
 of a discussion about something else.
 /sarcasm

  Instead of you think wrong, one would say there are some
  difficulties with your argument.

 One COULD say that. If one were disingenuous and trying to be
 politically correct instead of straightforward and honest.

Proof that non-material objects can have spin as an intrinsic property.

xponent
Roto Maru
rob

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Re: Harry Potter 5 (spoilers)

Bryon wrote:
About Snape: does anyone else think Snape's failure to train Harry was a 
betrayal of Dumbledore's request?  Given the stakes involved, and the fact 
that it left Harry wide open to Voldemort's plot, Dumbledore should have 
definitely had some serious words for Snape about that...
I will *definitely* be disapointed if JKR doesn't deal with this in the next 
book, even if only in passing.  Snape's failure, combined with Harry 
thinking he was right about the dreams being good and everyone else was 
wrong, caused...

Well, to be honest, it caused a battle scene I'm really looking forward to 
seeing on the big screen!

But yeah, Dumbledore and Snape need to have a talk.

Reggie Bautista

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Re: Harry Potter 5 (spoilers)

David Hobby wrote:

I kept hoping that Harry's anger would be partially
explained as psychic overflow from Voldermort.  I guess that
it still could be, but the evidence so far points to Harry
being a rather large jerk...
Considering what we found out about his father... :-)   Actually, I think 
Harry being a jerk is just part of growing up.  He has defeated 
Moldywarts... um, Voldemort... several times previously, and everytime he 
has had a different opinion from anyone else, he has turned out to be right. 
 Now that he had discovered he can be very, very wrong, I think he'll be a 
little less bitter and a little more wise.

Reggie Bautista

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Re: Intent and language

On Fri, Aug 01, 2003 at 08:10:18PM -0500, Robert Seeberger wrote:

 I think the real irony is that you have just proven me prescient at
 best, or insightful at the very least.

I think that's more leady than irony, actually.

-- 
Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.erikreuter.net/
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[L3] Re: fight the evil of price discrimination

Since I'm supposed to be a liberal (and no one else
has posted anything about these two), I thought I'd
try a little 'Dogpiling.'

I'd never heard of Katha Pollit.  Here are a couple of
articles by her in The Nation (which I'm presuming
is a liberal publication?); the first is on the
current administration stance on the Convention for
the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against
Women (CEDAW), an issue which has been brought up
on-list.  It strikes me as a little shrill, but the
basic premise is solid - when women are devalued and
kept in their place, i.e. not allowed to vote or
participate in public society, to own land or even
their own bodies, etc. - the US ought to be at the
forefront of empowering women, not ranked with Somalia
and Syria.  I didn't know that Bush apparently
initially said he would sign it; apparently the
religious right is firmly opposed to it.  She mentions
some of the facts I brought up in a thread about AIDS:
the inability of many developing nations' women to
protect themselves against it, as they don't even have
control over their bodies.
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020708s=pollitt

This one is about 'the disgraceful state of
journalism' WRT plagiarism, lack of fact-checking, and
underhanded racism; I recognised the NYTimes
reporter's name, but not the others.  I think she
indicts both liberal and conservative papers, but *is*
kinder to the Times.
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030616s=pollitt

And this bashes William Bennett for being a hypocrite
WRT gambling and having only 2 children instead of '6
or 7.'  She sarcastically notes that _The Book of
Virtues_ evoked the old Aristotelian/
Stoic/Christian/Early American civic values: piety,
sobriety, temperance, honesty, prudence, self-control,
setting an example - but later calls for kindness
and tolerance and looking into your own heart and
cutting other people some slack because you never
really know what demons they're contending with. 
wry  Which she doesn't do for WB...
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030602s=pollitt

OK, so she's got a left-liberal agenda and her columns
on the war are too-eager to jump on 'facts' (museum
looting) that are not.  She doesn't seem to be a
femiNazi although she's clearly biased - in her
column about the Lysistrata Project, noting frex But
for the long haul, gender-based appeals to women
trouble me, even when they're funny and that many
fathers are as deeply invested in hands-on parenting
as mothers.  She decries the way this administration
sees the world in blackwhite, and prefers
multilateralism to unilateralism;  she wasn't one of
the 'Left who ignore Saddam Hussein's evil.'
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030519s=pollitt
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030519s=pollitt
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20021014s=pollitt

If this is representative of her views, I see little
to get worked up about - her agenda and spin are
clear, but she seems to have at least some awareness
of her bias - heck, she even swipes at Hilary for the
rightward tilt of her politics--her support for
welfare reform, capital punishment, family values
and so on.  grin  Calling *Hillary* 'Right'?!!  ;)
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030630s=pollitt

If someone has a link to an article in which she
flat-out lies (I noted the snide swipe at Bennett WRT
'other things that might have gone on during his
gambling forays' - definite cheap shot!) or foams at
the mouth, I'll certainly read it.  But I won't be
buying her book at the store...  ;)


I have heard the name of Noam Chomsky - um, I thought
he was a poet... 

Book Description: The Minimalist Program consists of
four recent essays that attempt to situate linguistic
theory in the broader cognitive sciences. In these
essays the minimalist approach to linguistic theory is
formulated and progressively developed. Building on
the theory of principles and parameters and, in
particular, on principles of economy of derivation and
representation, the minimalist framework takes
Universal Grammar as providing a unique computational
system, with derivations driven by morphological
properties, to which the syntactic variation of
languages is also restricted. Within this theoretical
framework, linguistic expressions are generated by
optimally efficient derivations that must satisfy the
conditions that hold on interface levels, the only
levels of linguistic representation...
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0262531283/104-7650737-8541513
head jerks up from obfuscationist-babble-induced
near-coma

Oh, now here is ugliness...defending a denier of the
Holocaust?  And minimizing the atrocities of the Khmer
Rouge?  curls lip in disgust
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/6072/chomsky.html

This extremely long article (which I did not read
through) condemns US presidents, who most would
perceive as fairly liberal, such as JFK and Clinton,
as - well, rather heinous (not that they all didn't
have glaring faults, including

Re: Bad Spelars

At 12:44 PM 8/1/2003 -0400 Erik Reuter wrote:
 since my posts were
intended as constructive criticism rather than an insult 

In which case, why not provide your constructive criticism OFF-LIST?

If you were at a party, and you gave someone constructive criticism in a
voice loud enough for the whole party to hear, how constructive do you
imagine it would be?Far more likely, it will just put the person on the
defensive.   By posting comments to the entire List, you did exactly that -
speaking in a loud enough voice for the entire party to hear - and not
surprisingly, rather than your criticism being constructive, it ended up
putting people on the defensive.

JDG
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Re: Bad Spelars

On Fri, Aug 01, 2003 at 10:18:39PM -0400, John D. Giorgis wrote:

 In which case, why not provide your constructive criticism OFF-LIST?

Because I reply to list messages on list.

 If you were at a party, and you gave someone constructive criticism

This isn't a party.

 party to hear - and not surprisingly, rather than your criticism being
 constructive, it ended up putting people on the defensive.

On the contrary, I think it did both, but not in exactly the way I
expected.


-- 
Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.erikreuter.net/
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I'm on vacation

2003-08-01 Thread Bemmzim

I will be off to the Canadian Rockies for about 10 days. I expect to have about 2000 
emails by the time I get back and so don't expect much from me even then. Now children 
play nice until I get back 
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Re: Intent and language

On Fri, Aug 01, 2003 at 09:03:56PM -0500, Robert Seeberger wrote:
 
 From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  I think that's more leady than irony, actually.
 
 
 Mercurial even!

And the next thing to say is Thallium's odd!. But if we keep going on
and on like this, eventually it could get Bohrium. So bite your Tungsten
and stick it up Uranium!

By the way, Golden advice from Polonium: neither a Boron nor Lithium Be.

-- 
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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective list-subscribers

--- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Deborah Harrell wrote:
 
  What about Assumes that anyone disagreeing with
 their position is
  either ignorant, stupid or deliberately obtuse.?
 
 What about, Acts passively agressive and
 disingenuously politically correct?

LOL
As opposed to aggressive?

Very well.  You are assuming that I aimed that at you?
 You're one - but so am I!  At least about the
ignorant and deliberately obtuse part -- but no one
who reads and understands the Killer B's is stupid. 
(And now of course I am assuming that your comment is
directed at me.)  

You want it from both barrels?  OK.  I will depart
from my customary 'gentle persuasion,' which
apparently you find so objectionable - although I
clearly poke fun at myself constantly (*and mean it*).

1)  You deliberately continue to taunt people, even
when it's clear that they don't understand your
sarcasm.

1a) You frequently step over the line from
sarcasm/irony to genuine meanness -- or you truly do
not understand how much of a bully your writing makes
you appear.

2)  Your stated wish for a society that 'promotes
pleasantness' for as many as possible (IIRC) is in
direct contradiction with your frequently hostile
on-list writing (hostility which is not merely *my*
perception, as a perusal of the archives of the past
two months will confirm).

2a) This confuses people who might like to consider
you a friend, and contrasts with your efforts to be
helpful, frex in answering technical questions, or
genuinely funny, as in amorphous blobs.

3)  You will not allow people to 'back off' from a
dispute, but instead try to re-engage the 'hapless
victim' in an escalating war of words - which you seem
to want to win quite badly.

3a) This leads to a cessation of attempts to
communicate on the part of the 'hv' cocks head to
listen for the good riddance! - or deflection via
excessive silliness (which I of course have resorted
to multiple times).  

3b) Escalation in the form of personal attacks is your
particular forte, when you appear to wish to humiliate
'the enemy.'  Graciousness in 'winning' apparently is
superfluous.

4)  Laughing at oneself is IMHO one of the most human
attributes - you should try it every now and then. 


Is that straight-forward enough for you?  no smiley

Erik, you clearly have many good attributes and your
contributions to List discussions are varied and
insightful.  But your on-line bullying is excessive,
unnecessary and, quite frankly, demonstrates either a
nasty streak of cruelty or an abysmal understanding of
human nature.

Debbi

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Re: I'm on vacation

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I will be off to the Canadian Rockies for about 10
 days. I expect to have about 2000 emails by the time
 I get back and so don't expect much from me even
 then. Now children play nice until I get back 

LOL
But Unka Bob, we wanna play Soljers!

Have a great trip, and we'll try to exceed your
expectations!

Debbi
who hopes the heat breaks soon


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Re: Intent and language

2003-08-01 Thread Robert Seeberger

- Original Message - 
From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: Intent and language

 On Fri, Aug 01, 2003 at 09:03:56PM -0500, Robert Seeberger wrote:

  From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED]

   I think that's more leady than irony, actually.

  Mercurial even!

 And the next thing to say is Thallium's odd!. But if we keep going on
 and on like this, eventually it could get Bohrium. So bite your Tungsten
 and stick it up Uranium!

 By the way, Golden advice from Polonium: neither a Boron nor Lithium Be.

Stop it already!!!

I'm getting magnauseous.

xponent
Stretching The Limits Of Credulity Maru
rob

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Re: [L3] Re: fight the evil of price discrimination

2003-08-01 Thread Gautam Mukunda

--- Deborah Harrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Chomsky is generally repulsive - but people who claim
the dissent is marginalized should remember that this
anti-Semitic, anti-American bigot is the most cited
scientist in the world, and not just because of his
linguistics.  When he spoke at Harvard while I was
there he spoke to a packed and laudatory house, while
Harvard professors introduced him as a legendary
American dissident.  Being an apologist for
totalitarian dictators gets you brownie points on the
modern left, apparently.

Katha Pollitt, among many other things, famously
forbade her daughter from flying an American flag
after September 11th because it was a symbol of, IIRC,
jingoism and hate.

If that _doesn't_ bother you, then it explains why the
left has no traction in the United States.  If it
does, remember that the right's extremists are policed
by the right as much as by the left, and it might be
worth thinking why someone who believes that edits
_The Nation_, the most influential magazine of the
Left in America.  Pat Buchanan doesn't exactly run
National Review.

=
Gautam Mukunda
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Freedom is not free
http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com

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Re: [Listref] Childhood obesity - changing the culture

Reggie Bautista wrote:
 
 Julia wrote:
 ...and then I made The Threat:  Sammy, if you don't stop banging
 that block on the table, your daddy is going to offer you some
 broccoli.  He didn't bang the block on anything else for the rest of
 the meal.  Of course, he would have had the option of refusing the
 broccoli, but he didn't even want to have it offered.  (If anyone wants
 to criticize me on this, go ahead, I'd just appreciate it if you were
 polite about it.)
 
 polite mode=on
 You're very lucky you have a child to whom you can give that kind of choice
 and still trust he'll get all the various nutrients he needs.  With a couple
 of my nephews (a few years older than Sammy), if you gave them the option of
 refusing anything that was offered, they'd refuse everything except pizza
 :-)  Our general practice with them is to let them make choices, but only
 let them choose between various options that are all acceptable to us.
 polite mode=off
 
 There, how was that?  :-)

Pretty good.

As long as he gets *some* sort of vegetable, we figure things are OK
right now.

Tonight we pulled the no more rolls until you eat some of your chicken
tactic.  He wasn't hungry enough to eat the chicken.  So no more rolls. 
But he was content to stay at the table with the rest of us until Dan
was done eating, without any fussing after we made it clear that we were
sticking to our guns on the no more rolls before chicken statement.

The things he likes to eat are in enough variety that he's getting at
least the basics of carbs, proteins and fats, and he gets vitamin drops
for good measure.  If he eats some fruit and some vegetable each day, we
figure we're helping set him up for better habits in the future, and
he's not getting much in the way of real junk.  (And for him it wouldn't
be pizza; we'd be spending $5 a day at Sonic getting him grilled cheese
sandwiches, except the days that we took him to Mongolian BBQ and let
him stuff his face with tofu, chicken and bread.  Although we've been
getting him to eat bits of zucchini with it lately, which is good.)

Julia
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Kayaking on Mars?

2003-08-01 Thread patrick

I found this article while searching for info about my favorite
planet. Whether or not there is running water on Mars, I thought that
the subject line would provoke some imaginations! :)

http://www.msnbc.com/news/423452.asp#BODY

Patrick

The images, taken from Global Surveyors mapping orbit about 230 miles
(370 kilometers) above the surface, clearly show dry V-shaped gullies
trickling down the sides of craters, with fans of debris spread below.
Since the areas were unmarked by craters, Malin and Edgett concluded that
the gullies were created recently in geological terms  perhaps hundreds
or thousands or millions of years ago, or even days ago, rather than
billions of years ago.
   Malin said the absence of craters means scientists cant determine
how old most of the features are, because the thing that we would
measure to say theyre old doesnt exist.

Patrick Schlichtenmyer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
---
Be silly. Be honest. Be kind.
-Ralph Waldo Emerson


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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective list-subscribers

Deborah Harrell wrote:

 3)  You will not allow people to 'back off' from a
 dispute, but instead try to re-engage the 'hapless
 victim' in an escalating war of words - which you seem
 to want to win quite badly.

Actually, he *will* let people back off if they choose to just drop
it.  If he's aggressively trying to pin someone down on a logical answer
and that person just stops responding to his posts, he doesn't go after
them further.  While this may not be the most pleasant resolution, there
are more unpleasant resolutions possible, and I give him credit for at
least avoiding those.

If anyone truly walks away from a disagreement with Erik by not
responding, he'll let it go.  He'll only fight as long as you put up
resistance, and will not bother you for an answer in other ways.

Julia
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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective list-subscribers

On Fri, Aug 01, 2003 at 08:29:42PM -0700, Deborah Harrell wrote:

 You are assuming that I aimed that at you?

No. I assumed it was aimed at the qualities you described.

 1) You deliberately continue to taunt people, even when it's clear
 that they don't understand your sarcasm.

There aren't any dummies reading Killer B's, someone once said. They'll
get it eventually.

 2) Your stated wish for a society that 'promotes pleasantness' for
 as many as possible (IIRC) is in direct contradiction with your
 frequently hostile on-list writing

No, it is not. I am not a hedonist. I did mention pleasantness in my
description, but my viewpoint is more nuanced than you imply here.

 2a) This confuses people who might like to consider you a friend, and
 contrasts with your efforts to be helpful, frex in answering technical
 questions, or genuinely funny, as in amorphous blobs.

Good! There's nothing wrong with a little ambiguity and contrast.

 3) You will not allow people to 'back off' from a dispute, but instead
 try to re-engage the 'hapless victim' in an escalating war of words -
 which you seem to want to win quite badly.

Do tell how I forced someone to send an email to Brin-L.  Also, how does
one win?

 3a) This leads to a cessation of attempts to communicate on the part
 of the 'hv' cocks head to listen for the good riddance!

So, now I am both forcing people to send emails and simultaneously
leading them to stop sending emails? Are you studying to be the White
Queen? Maybe, just maybe, some people are smarter than you give them
credit for, and rather than me somehow controlling (and not controlling)
them, my posts might occasionally provide some people something to think
about.

 3b) Escalation in the form of personal attacks is your particular
 forte, when you appear to wish to humiliate 'the enemy.'  Graciousness
 in 'winning' apparently is superfluous.

It seems to me that seeing malice in vigorous discussion is your
forte. I write about what I think is important, and argue against things
that I don't think are correct. I expect a high standard from people who
post on serious topics here, and when I don't see that, I will point it
out directly or indirectly. The only winning I can think of is when
the discussion is interesting and insightful, or on factual matters,
when a mistake is corrected.

 But your on-line bullying is excessive,

Then we'll just have to disagree, because I cannot be persuaded that
writing emails with no direct life consequences or threats is bullying,
let alone excessive. If someone becomes terribly upset from reading an
email on an email list, well, then maybe they need to chill out. It is
just an email list, for goodness sake. If it is affecting your life,
your job, your family, or your emotional health then it might be a good
idea to reorder your priorities.



-- 
Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.erikreuter.net/
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Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective list-subscribers