Re: Details of The Bet Re: Br!n: Re: Peter Arnett has negativeeffecton ratings
On Thu, 3 Apr 2003, Dan Minette wrote: - Original Message - From: Jon Gabriel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 11:59 AM Subject: Re: Details of The Bet Re: Br!n: Re: Peter Arnett has negative effect on ratings For some reason, I'm reminded of the antiagathics vs. germanium as currency storyline from Cities in Flight by Blish. Has anyone else read it? Yup, about 25 years ago. :-) About 15 years for me, but yeah. Summer grass - all that | Marvin Long Remains of great warriors and | Austin, Texas Imperial dreams.| | - Bassho | ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Geraldo is expelled from iraq for reporting Western troopmovements in the war
On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Kevin Tarr wrote: Was there a memo proclaiming Marvin Long to be a judge of someone's character? Or that he is an authority on what a quality journalist is? Maybe his realm is just embarrassments. A judge of Geraldo's personal character? Of course not. Of his career as a basis of whether or not I should rely on him for news? Hell yes. But to be fair, he does appear to have had a genuine journalistic career before he became a TV ringmaster (and in the realm of modern mass media, journalist appears to be an endlessly flexible word, so perhaps I shouldn't quibble)... http://makeashorterlink.com/?K1ED32F04 ...and is plausibly trying to rehabilitate himself, http://makeashorterlink.com/?J13E15F04 That said, I reserve the right to associate the term veteran journalist with guys like, say, Bob Woodward, and to make judgements about where I'll get my news based in some part on the careers of the people who claim to be telling me the truth. Meanwhile, I'm going to go see if I can get an exclusive from inside one of Osama's caves Summer grass - all that | Marvin Long Remains of great warriors and | Austin, Texas Imperial dreams.| | - Bassho | ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Geraldo is expelled from iraq for reportingWesterntroopmovementsin the war
On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Julia Thompson wrote: When did Geraldo become a veteran reporter and cease to be a national embarassment? Um, when he started working for Fox News? Julia Take That However You Like Maru I will, think you. Summer grass - all that | Marvin Long Remains of great warriors and | Austin, Texas Imperial dreams.| | - Bassho | ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Why I'm pissed off right now
On Wed, 2 Apr 2003, Miller, Jeffrey wrote: My home was shot last night. Not once. Three times. And my car. And.. my FUCKING CAT was killed. You have my deepest sympathy. humor aside=I can say this 'cause I'm a native Texan Goldamm, son, looks like you've got an infestation of Texans. Best way to treat the problem is by fumigation with a solution of Coors Lite and boric acid. Lee Greenwood albums and a few cases of Skoal make excellent bait. /humor Serious: I am so sorry to hear this, Jeffrey. I'd being going nuts about now if this had happened to me, I think. Having a brief breakdown while I question the right of the community, the nation, and humanity in general to exist, then getting powerfully [EMAIL PROTECTED] mad and looking for a way to raise hell. I wonder if a local news station would be interested in this story? Summer grass - all that | Marvin Long Remains of great warriors and | Austin, Texas Imperial dreams.| | - Bassho | ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Geraldo is expelled from iraq for reporting Western troopmovements in the war
On Mon, 31 Mar 2003, The Fool wrote: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storyu=/nm/20030331/people_nm/iraq_ usa_geraldo_dc_1 US Military Moves Reporter Geraldo Rivera from Iraq 1 hour, 52 minutes ago WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Veteran reporter Geraldo Rivera, a correspondent When did Geraldo become a veteran reporter and cease to be a national embarassment? Summer grass - all that | Marvin Long Remains of great warriors and | Austin, Texas Imperial dreams.| | - Bassho | ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: New list members
On Thu, 27 Mar 2003, Robert Seeberger wrote: Its good to see you again, but this is really strange I have been thinking about you Joshua for about 3 or 4 days, wondering what was up with you and how you and your family was doing. And then you pop up on the list again. Its an unnerving coincidence! G Welcome back Joshua and congrats! I had a funny coincidence of my own recently. A couple of weeks ago the telephone rang around 8 pm on a Friday night. Assuming it was a telemarketer, I answered the phone, Moshi-moshi! A slightly bewildered Japanese voice replied, Ummm...moshi-moshi! It was my old karate teacher! Summer grass - all that | Marvin Long Remains of great warriors and | Austin, Texas Imperial dreams.| | - Bassho | ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Geraldo is expelled from iraq for reporting Western troopmovements in the war
On Tue, 1 Apr 2003, Kevin Tarr wrote: When did Geraldo become a veteran reporter and cease to be a national embarassment? Marvin Long Maybe when fourteen neighbors died September 11, 2001. Oh wait, that would mean a journalist can have ideals. Was there a memo establishing that Geraldo Rivera is to be regarded as representative of quality journalism as such? I must have missed it. Summer grass - all that | Marvin Long Remains of great warriors and | Austin, Texas Imperial dreams.| | - Bassho | ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: $39,713,982.25 Vegas Payout
Just goes to show a watched pot never jacks. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: statue of liberty
No need to ship the whole thing back to France; just replace the torch with a Colt .45. Marvin Long Gun or malt liquor, it works either way Maru Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin reproducing
On Sun, 23 Mar 2003, Julia Thompson wrote: I'm pregnant again. Holy #*!! It's an epidemic of sperm poisoning!! Um, congratulations! Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin reproducing
On Mon, 24 Mar 2003, Julia Thompson wrote: Holy #*!! It's an epidemic of sperm poisoning!! Sperm poisoning followed by progesterone poisoning. I don't mind the first, but the second, well, the second is miserable at times. (But I'm getting over it. Then we get into the whole endorphin thing!) That's just your body fighting off the infection ;-) Thanks. :) You're very welcome. But watch Sammy...if he starts cackling maniacally, it's because he's just realized that as an older brother he'll have nearly unlimited opportunities for sadism---er, playful torture---er, good wholesome fun. Yes, that's the ticket! Marvin Long Speaking from experience Maru Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Admin reproducing
On Mon, 24 Mar 2003, Julia Thompson wrote: Oh, I thought that that was what Dan and I were here for, as far as he was concerned. ;) (At least, the torture part. Damn, but I hate it that my body is so sensitive when there's someone not quite 2 wanting to crawl all over it) You're just for practice. The younger sibling is the main event until puberty kicks in (IIRC). Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Something wonderful happened today...
On Thu, 20 Mar 2003, Matthew and Julie Bos wrote: Here name is: Anneka Marie Bos Congratulations! But you knowDarth Bos is really tempting right about now... Marvin Long Doh! Sucker for temptation Maru Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Who is the sheriff?
On Tue, 18 Mar 2003, Bryon Daly wrote: I just came across this article that explores Bush's ineffective diplomacy and the reasons behind it, and had been debating whether to post it. http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-03-17-anti-diplomacy-usat_x.htm Thanks. Here's another interesting one: http://slate.msn.com/id/2080262/ It speculates on what might have been if Bush's approach had more closely resembled his father's in Gulf I and Clinton's in Kosovo. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: sweat
On Mon, 17 Mar 2003, William T Goodall wrote: On Sunday, March 16, 2003, at 06:36 am, The Fool wrote: http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/03/15/perspiration.reut/index.html Study: Male sweat brightens women's moods So perhaps the declining birth rate in the developed world is due to regular bathing and the use of antiperspirant? Heh. Where's Pseudolus when you need him? Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Who is the sheriff?
On Sat, 15 Mar 2003, Erik Reuter wrote: say) to listen more than talk. And I think it does me good to just listen to what you and Gautam and John G., for instance, have to say. Not that you meant it that way, but it struck me as funny that you grouped me in with JDG politically. I don't think he would agree with that! :-) Ha! I group you three as people who have advanced persuasive pro-war arguments that made me stop and think about my prejudices and fears. Which remain, but their accuracy remains to be seen. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Re: Re: France's influence
On Mon, 17 Mar 2003, J. van Baardwijk wrote: At 18:24 16-03-03 -0600, Ronn Blankenship wrote: Er, John, I think you need to read up on how a democracy works. In a democracy, decisions are not made by the populace but by the politicians that were elected by the populace. No, that is the definition of a _republic_. That's not entirely correct. In The Netherlands, our politicians have been elected by the populace, and decisions are made by those politicians. However, The Netherlands is NOT a republic -- it's a democracy (with a constitutional monarchy). As I understand them, republic and democracy are not mutually exclusive terms. It sounds to me like the Netherlands is a republic (because it has a constitution and a deliberative lawmaking body - the monarch cannot or does not alter the law at whim) and a democracy (the representatives of in the lawmaking body are elected by a democratic process). The term republic implies some degree of democracy, though the democracy itself may vary from being very restrictive (only landowning males of a certain highly qualified degree of citizenship, say, may vote) to very inclusive (every citizen over 18 may vote). These days we probably wouldn't consider a democracy of the first sort a real democracy - it wouldn't meet our moral standards of inclusiveness - but it might still be a republic. To have a democracy that was *not* also a republic, there would have to be a lack of established laws (i.e. a constitution) that cannot be overturned by a simple majority vote of the population. The US is often called a democratic republic because it meets the criteria for both terms. It sounds as though the Netherlands is about the same. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The World's First Brain Prosthesis
I thought the world's first brain prosthesis was the wife. Marvin Long Run away! Maru Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Who is the sheriff?
On Mon, 17 Mar 2003, Gautam Mukunda wrote: Why thank you Marvin. I'm not posting right now (except for this) I did 110+ hours at the office last week (including 2:00am Saturday, which _sucked_, let me tell you) and would be looking at the same this week, except I leave for Denmark on Friday. You're welcome. Get some sleep. But if you think you're scared - I'm so jittery right now I can barely think straight. As far as I can tell, the battle plan looks like a template for 4th generation warfare - OODA loops, engagement at multiple levels, information dominance, the works. Lots of very smart people came up with those ideas. A fair number of less smart people have been arguing that they were a good idea for a while now (count me in that second group). But they're just theories. No one, in the entire history of the world, has ever tried anything remotely like this. There are about a million ways things can go wrong, and we have _no_ margin for error. In my lifetime the stakes have never been so high, for the US and the world. I think we have very different nightmares. :-) I have every confidence in our armed forces, even if things don't go entirely as planned. Not that I'm especially familiar with all the operational wrinkles of modern warfare. I also believe that to whatever degree politics permits it, our men and women in uniform will be the ultimate evidence of America's basic decency after the occupation begins. It's the people on *this* side of the Atlantic I worry about. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: SuperHero Jurisprudence (was Re: Deadlier Than War)
On Mon, 17 Mar 2003, John Garcia wrote: Just how did the authorities prosecute those thugs trussed up by Spiderman? IIRC, Spiderman would come up on some hood burning and pillaging, beat him up and leave him snared in a web attached to a lamp post. The cops would show up, Spiderman would leap off, and the cops would take the hood in. How do you arraign this guy? I mean, the cops didn't see anything. Spiderman didn't hang around to give a deposition, and he sure didn't turn up in court later. What do the cops report? A man dressed in a spider costume beat up and bound this individual.? And then, Before he ran away, he told us the perp created a crime. That's why supervillains are all back out on the street after a couple of months. :-) Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Who is the sheriff?
On Mon, 17 Mar 2003, Gautam Mukunda wrote: What, btw, do you _want_ Marvin? If it goes well, that's bad. But if it goes poorly, that's bad. Sorry, that's my kneejerk pessimism again. If we don't do this, Saddam eventually gets nuclear weapons. If we do do this, there's no outcome that seems favorable. What I haven't seen from you - from anyone, but particularly from you, since I know you're capable of it - is an argument balancing the risks of action versus those of inaction. Yes, the war can go badly. Look at the Middle East. Do you feel that peace is going _well_? What, given the options, would you do? At the moment we've run out of options, or squandered whatever options there once were, so I see no choice but to go forward with fingers crossed for luck. As for the peace I agree with Ronn that there isn't one. Several weeks ago in one of my musings, I said that one of the best arguments for war is that we're already at war have been for over a decade, and we have to choose whether to win it or lose it. I even agree that Hussein would almost certainly have to have been disarmed forcefully at some point, that we were never going to negotiate or inspect him out of his WMDs. And yet. I feel that this particular course of action, and this particular timing, has pretty much been force-fed to the American people by a propaganda campaign based on scanty facts and half-truths to convince us all that Hussein presents to America the same degree of threat today that al Qaeda presented on Sept. 10, 2001. I feel the object of an, If you can't blind 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullshit campaign. Which in turn makes me feel that the options for creating a broader world consensus for action existed and were deliberately discarded before they were ever explored. Why? Here's what I want. I want an America that went to the world a year ago and said that the cold-war era mission of NATO is over and that solicited a new or modified alliance of democratic nations whose purpose would be (in addition to mutual defense) to promote democracy and suppress terrorism along a carrot-and-stick model: on the one hand, unprecented amounts of aid for nations willing to democratize and pluralize their societies along with golden-parachute deals for leaders whose positions would be compromised by such changes; on the other, the promise of multilateral military actions against regimes known to fund support terrorism or that otherwise pose a threat to the peace of the world. In other words, establish a western alliance to pursue not just defensive security but the kind of long term humanitarian good and political reform that must be the basis of long-term security and prosperity, and then place the war against Iraq within that context (if this involves acknowledging that the UN isn't up to the whole of this task, fine). Instead we have a rather vaguely defined war on terror that relies on evidentiary slight-of-hand to provide shaky justifications for a war on Iraq that shouldn't *need* shaky justifications, but we seem to have provided them as a kind of international pacifier, or because the domestic audience can be expected to swallow what Europe won't but we don't care too much about Europe anyway. I realize that such a plan would cause a huge amount of unhappiness for those nations that benefit from maintaining the status quo. But it seems to me that there are a lot of nations that would benefit from a new status quo, and if we had offered such a thing to the westernized world first, our motives in Iraq today would be far more credible. Maybe after Iraq something can happen. But I don't think it will because the US doesn't want to be tied down by friends. Friends have to be treated like peers, more or less, but treating people like peers means you can't always dictate terms. And we want to be in a position to dictate terms when we desire. In our recent diplomacy we seem to have treated our allies more like pets than peers. We certainly haven't helped the leaders of allied nations win points with their constituencies. So what I want now is (a) for the Bush plan to succeed and prove me an ignorant ninny, which I know that I am to some degree anyway since international politics is hardly a specialty of mine, and (b) to see evidence that the US will pursue a far more multilateral and proactively humanitarian approach for the sake of providing carrots along with the sticks we have in abundance; and, frankly, for the sake of keeping our own growing power in some kind of check. Sorry if this seems terribly naive, or naive in its cynicism, or whatever...I've already confessed I'm a third-rate wonk (if that). Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Ah...My Favorite Topic - Books (Was Question about Spoilers)
On Sun, 16 Mar 2003, Julia Thompson wrote: I thought The Big Time wasn't the best I'd ever read, but it was entertaining, at least. It's been a long time since I read The Big Time, but remember enjoying it. Then, I love just about anything by Fritz Leiber. He's a genre stylist who writes work that is aware of itself without being a parody or satire of itself (Silver Eggheads being the deliberate exception). Really delicious. Not really a visionary SF writer in the Asimov/Brin/Bear/Benford sense of the word, but more of an accomplished jack of all trades. Where's the best place to snag a complete list of Nebula award winners? (Anyone?) http://www.sfwa.org/awards/archive/pastwin.htm Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brawl erupts after song played at rodeo
On Sun, 16 Mar 2003, Gautam Mukunda wrote: Only the rodeo. Only around the time of SXSW in Austin. Sheesh. (That was the most unbelievable detail of the story. The rest I could see all too easily.) Julia I think you're going to have to explain that for the non-Texans among us, Julia. Austin being (depending on your point of view) either the liberal hippie cosmic cowboy oasis of liberalism in Texas or the liberal hippie cosmic cowboy hellhole of iniquity in Texas. :-) And Houston being more big-oil big-hair old-school-cowboy yada yada yada. But once a year we get a big rodeo that brings out the old-school cowboys in town, and South by Soutwest (SXSW) that also brings in a lot of the music-loving cosmic cow-whatever crowd. At the same time. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brawl erupts after song played at rodeo
On Sun, 16 Mar 2003, Julia Thompson wrote: Actually, from the article, I gathered it was a rodeo in Houston. If you're *really* wanting to get away from SXSW and there's a rodeo in Houston, that would be a better bet than going to the rodeo here in Austin. Oh. Guess I'm confused, then. (What were the dates of the rodeo here this year, anyway? I've been kind of under a rock all month) Beats me. I don't ride cows, I just eat 'em. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Who is the sheriff?
On Thu, 13 Mar 2003, Erik Reuter wrote: First of all, I'm not convinced that Hussein has the ability to use massive amounts of anything against the US. I don't doubt that he has stockpiles of the stuff, but that's not the same as being able to deploy them in any significant way against the US. It seems to me that in order to be able to use massive amounts of anthrax and nerve agent against the US, Hussein would have to be able to fly planes over the US or else to target us with ICBMs or maybe warships or something else comparable. He can't do that right now. How about cargo containers? A possibility - our port harbor security isn't great, plus our homland security measures for them are underfunded. But still, I'm under the impression that under sanctions Hussein can't load a container of VX on to an Iraqi ship manned by Iraqi sailors and launched from an Iraqi port and expect to get it to the US. This means he has to find intermediaries he can trust and who don't mind taking the risk of being implicated in the act. That's a pretty big hurdle in itself. Or he could just sell it to al Qaeda or some other terrorist group, but that assumes Hussein is willing to take some big chances on *their* behalf which, though not impossible, seems unlikely unless he can get a tangible long-term benefit from the deal -- pissing off the US, by itself, may not be enough for him to take such a risk. Supposing for the sake of argument that he does manage to get a container of nerve agent to a US port, and there are sympathetic agents in place to take receipt of said container, there are still a number of logistical hurdles to making use of the stuff. Moving the container will be expensive and, the more it's done, risky. Handling the bio/chem agent will require some expertise. A form of effective mass dispersal will need to be found, otherwise you're left pulling an Aum Shinrikyo-type move, and basically you will have gone to enormous effort to do something that could be done as effectively with some traditional explosives or guys with guns. Even with a form of mass dispersal, your effectiveness will be reduced unless you can find a way to contain the target population and prevent it from fleeing the area of effect. Maybe poisoning a water supply is the way to go, but then you forfeit dramatic news footage and the glory of fiery martyrdom (and would a container's worth of agent be sufficient to cause WMD-class fatalities before it's detected? I really don't know.). Nevertheless, it's a possibility worth thinking about and guarding against. But it's not something that Hussein can expect to accomplish by simply issuing an order. And if you're a terrorist working on limited budgets of money and time, importing Iraqi biological or chemical WMD to the US may not be cost-effective. Therefore, it's still an exaggeration to say simply that Hussein (alone or in concert with others) has the ability, at a wish, to use a WMD against the US. He's highly dependent on the help of others to do so...which means he is relatively weak right now, especially compared to the US's ability to retaliate. Weak enough so that we could have spent another year on diplomacy to try to build support instead of announcing ahead of time that war is what will happen no matter what anybody else says and then reluctantly going through the motions of negotiating with the UNSC. I agree that would have been far preferable, but the problem is, we don't have it to do over again. While I think Bush COULD have done it that way if he started a year ago (and weren't so inept at persuading Europeans to his viewpoint), I think that it is virtually impossible for him to persuade Europeans now, even if he were transformed into a brilliant and charming diplomat tomorrow. There has been too much conflict over this issue for any chance of changing most Europeans minds. So, the important question is what to do NOW. Personally, I'm supporting the war in Iraq, even more strongly supporting nation building after the war, and I'm also going to pay a lot of attention to foreign policy and diplomatic ability of presidential candidates when I vote in 2004. I think that's as good a stance as any I've been able to come up with. Secondly, please note that you quoted me out of context above. The quoted statement was originally part of a hypothetical designed to explain why some people might think Hussein in his current state is less dangerous than a United States, power unchecked by any rival, armed with the precedent that preemptive warfare is a legitimate principle whenever our interests are at stake. I believe Erik described this perspective as a selfish ivory tower paranoid fantasy. :-) You forgot irresponsible :-) Yes, thank you! Although, I think irresponsible better describes those who sit on their couches watching Seinfeld reruns and not giving the matter a thought. People who are vocally
RE: Commentary on French-bashing
Someone said: Someone on another mailing list told me that prior to one of the World Wars, it had been called German toast. I have done no research to verify; does anyone here know? And I think my response was, Why don't we just call it 'European toast'? Euro-toast! Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
The evil that Telcos do
If you're a customer of SBC's dsl service, you might be interested in this. If not, you might be interested anyway just for the oh jeez factor. http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/03/14/BU35890.DTL ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Who is the sheriff?
On Fri, 14 Mar 2003, Julia Thompson wrote: Erik: I was thinking along the lines of terrorists in the country who managed to pick up the materials from an incoming cargo container. But I don't know enough details about whether that would be possible. Do you? How much Tom Clancy have you read? Others have beaten me to it, but my immediate thought was to string off a list of possibilities including faked manifests, dummy corporations, suborned and bribed inspectors, employees, states, etc. :-) Smaller quantities of bad stuff would presumably need less elaborate preparations. It does seem to me, though, that once you talk about using a something like a nerve agent in small enough quantities, one might as well just get creative at the local sporting goods store. Multiple Washington-sniper type attacks all across the country using different makes and models of cars and weapons would be just as effective as multiple sarin gas attacks and probably a hell of a lot cheaper, with better odds of repeatability. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Who is the sheriff?
On Fri, 14 Mar 2003, Kevin Tarr wrote: At 02:42 PM 3/14/2003 -0600, Julia wrote: Can you imagine what would have happened to the US computer industry, at least short-term, if someone had successfully deployed such a biological weapon at COMDEX during the fat years of the late 1990s? The porn and snack food industries would be bankrupt? joking LOL! Time to wipe down the keyboard again Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Who is the sheriff?
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, John D. Giorgis wrote: At 01:00 AM 3/5/2003 -0600 Marvin Long, Jr. wrote: Saddam is as guilty as sin but if containment can keep him as relatively weak as he is now, then perpetuating that state of affairs is the lesser evil Two questions for you Marvin: 1) Do you consider the ability to use massive amounts of anthrax and nerve agent in chemical and biological attacks upon the US to be relatively weak? First of all, I'm not convinced that Hussein has the ability to use massive amounts of anything against the US. I don't doubt that he has stockpiles of the stuff, but that's not the same as being able to deploy them in any significant way against the US. It seems to me that in order to be able to use massive amounts of anthrax and nerve agent against the US, Hussein would have to be able to fly planes over the US or else to target us with ICBMs or maybe warships or something else comparable. He can't do that right now. It seems to me that Hussein's strength lies not in his ability to threaten the US directly, but in his ability to threaten those of his neighbors in whom the US has a vested interest. But this ability is itself highly curtailed by sanctions and no-fly zones. So, yes, he does seem to me to be relatively weak (relative to what, is the question perhaps) at this time. Weak enough so that we could have spent another year on diplomacy to try to build support instead of announcing ahead of time that war is what will happen no matter what anybody else says and then reluctantly going through the motions of negotiating with the UNSC. Secondly, please note that you quoted me out of context above. The quoted statement was originally part of a hypothetical designed to explain why some people might think Hussein in his current state is less dangerous than a United States, power unchecked by any rival, armed with the precedent that preemptive warfare is a legitimate principle whenever our interests are at stake. I believe Erik described this perspective as a selfish ivory tower paranoid fantasy. :-) Personally, I think it's just the historical cliche that power corrupts applied what appears to be the current trend: that the United States seeks to be the unrivaled economic, military, and political force on earth. The fantasy - that is, the yet-to-be-tested article of faith - is that America's values and political institutions will prevent power from corrupting the exercise of its unchecked hegemony. That theory will only start to be tested now that the Soviet Union has fallen and we have a motivation for being militarily aggressive on the world stage in the war on terror. I think it's perfectly natural for someone trying to think about the big picture to be more concerned with containing America - the larger long-term issue - than with Hussein, the smaller short-to-medium term issue. We can't assume that everyone - especially citizens of other nations, even the ones that generally like the US - will assume by default that a unipolar global American hegemony will be the best of all possible worlds. However...having said that, I want to say this: I've been silent in this thread since the post quoted above because I found Erik's response to be very powerful, powerful enough to make me decide to shut up and sit and listen and read what others have to say and think for a while. That's still pretty much how I feel. I think the US has handled this issue about as badly as possible on the diplomatic front - by our bluntness placing at needlessly increased risk the very leaders, like Tony Blair, by whose support we hope to gain international legitimacy. On the other hand, I see no moral credibility in the mechanations of nations like France, say; and the hope for a Mid-East region genuinely improved by an American presence in Iraq is very compelling. It still feels totally like a roll of the dice to me, though. And we've reached a point where the US's search for UN approval has become sort of pathetic; Powell's announcement today that we would continue to seek UNSC approval bordered on self-humiliation for the administration in its search for international support, given Bush's press conference several days ago. Which, in an odd way, I find heartening...it suggests to me that these men really are sincere in their stated goals even if they do a lousy job of selling the plan. Meanwhile, it tends to expose the unprincipled intransigence of the opposition, as when France announces that no resolution that includes the use of force will ever pass muster. Why have any resolution ever, then? So at this point I'm thinking that if war comes to pass, as it almost certainly will, I'm going to bite my tongue and hope and pray, in my strange and godless way, that everything works out for the best. I can't honestly say that I believe in this war. But my fondest hope may be to be proven wrong. 2) Did you consider the DPRK in 1994, when it was accepting US
Re: What Czech taxes are going to...
On Mon, 10 Mar 2003, Jon Gabriel wrote: Well, apparently it *is* the size of your bullfrog that matters. :) Jon snip Chief zoologist Vitezslav Honsa added: We even went as far as getting a tape for them with frog sounds on it so they could make love. No Barry White? No Ohio Players? Marvin Long Rosie the Ribbiter Maru Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Do the anti-anti-war critics want a country withoutpeaceadocates?
On Mon, 10 Mar 2003, Adam C. Lipscomb wrote: Not to burst your balloon, but rabid pcp-crazed incontinent baboons fighting over a days-dead gopher carcass look better than most cable TV discussions, especially the ones on Fox News. Shit! That bastard on S. Congress sold me some bad PC... Uh, never mind. Marvin Long ROTFLMAO Maru :-) Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: PC-Vgames and Eye Problems: Help!
Could the problem be the head-bob effect so common in 1st-person shooters? Some games have the option to turn this off so that you get a smoother motion. I've heard some say that this particular effect makes them feel seasick. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lawyer Arrested for Wearing a 'Peace' T-Shirt
On Thu, 6 Mar 2003, John D. Giorgis wrote: It seems to me that a Mall is private property, and thus they have a right to avoid the creation of confrontation on their property. I suppose that he can argue that a Mall is essentially a created public forum. but that argument seems like a stretch.I wouldn't be surprised, nor would I be upset, if a court bought that argument from him - but my guess is that the Mall is private property, and thus, their rights will be upheld. How about the argument that the shirt did not create or stand to incite any confrontation, but that the mallcops' decision to be self-appointed brownshirts created the only actual confrontation? Marvin Long Thug life maru Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lawyer Arrested for Wearing a 'Peace' T-Shirt
On Thu, 6 Mar 2003, Gautam Mukunda wrote: Of course, the _actual criminal complaint_ (as opposed to the propaganda from activists) tells a slightly different story: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/crossgates1.html Interesting - there's a dispute of fact, it seems. The complaint suggests the two men were actively stopping other shoppers. In none of the news stories I've read, however, do the mall cops actually repeat that allegation. They just allege that other shoppers were disturbed by the shirts in some vague way. If the real offense was that the men were harrassing people physically, why were they not asked to leave for that behavior instead of being asked, at first, just to remove the shirts? It looks like the charges have been dropped: http://www.msnbc.com/local/WNYT/M276307.asp?0dm=C249N Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lawyer Arrested for Wearing a 'Peace' T-Shirt
On Thu, 6 Mar 2003, Julia Thompson wrote: Marvin Long, Jr. wrote: Interesting - there's a dispute of fact, it seems. The complaint suggests the two men were actively stopping other shoppers. In none of the news stories I've read, however, do the mall cops actually repeat that allegation. They just allege that other shoppers were disturbed by the shirts in some vague way. If the real offense was that the men were harrassing people physically, why were they not asked to leave for that behavior instead of being asked, at first, just to remove the shirts? It looks like the charges have been dropped: http://www.msnbc.com/local/WNYT/M276307.asp?0dm=C249N According to your link, they were, and one of them complied. The other didn't, was asked to leave, and then was arrested for trespassing. Yes - they were asked to remove the shirts. But if the men were physically accosting people, which is what the complaint appears to allege, why ask them just to remove their shirts? How will that stop them walking around and disrupting the activities of other shoppers? Is it reasonable to suppose that the mere act of wearing the shirts themselves, which bore no obscene or vulgar language, was so disturbing as to stop other shoppers from doing that they needed to do? Or is the crux of the issue that the mall is private property, so the management and mall cops can do whatever they damn well please? Excuse me sir, that shirt you're wearing is disturbing people. To prove that you're behaving like a good guest of the mall, I'm afraid we'll require you to remove the shirt, put your underpants on your head, and sing the Star-Spangled Banner with us in four-part harmony. You won't do that? Then you're trespassing. (I can actually imagine that argument succeeding in some places, actually.) Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lawyer Arrested for Wearing a 'Peace' T-Shirt
On Thu, 6 Mar 2003, Gautam Mukunda wrote: The Supreme Court should be one of them. There's no serious question that _even if_ all they were doing was wearing the shirt, the mall had a right to ask them to leave, and arrest them for trespassing if they did. See Instapundit's commentary, for example (Instapundit (aka Glenn Reynolds) is a law professor at UTenn, but I could have told you that without the law degree). If they were harassing shoppers - and I would guess that they probably were - then I don't even mind the mall telling them to leave. If they weren't, then that was a wrong decision on the part of the mall, but they were within their legal rights. So far I haven't seen a news story that quotes anyone recounting being confronted or spoken to by the men, so I'm not inclined to leap to the conclusion that they actually harassed anybody. I'm sure you're correct on the legal implications of the mall being private property, which suggests that to me that the mall is run by gits, pure and simple. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lawyer Arrested for Wearing a 'Peace' T-Shirt
On Thu, 6 Mar 2003, Dan Minette wrote: Out of curiosity, what if a group of anti-abortionists were wearing shirts with anti-abortion slogans on it and coming to the mall every day to talk to shoppers. No accosting, just asking people if they think that people have a right to kill their own children, etc. I think it would depend on degrees of behavior. If they're just wearing their T-shirts while shopping or having lunch, I see no problem. If they are making a daily habit of striking up unsolicited conversations with anybody who comes into earshot, I call that accosting for all practical purposes (whether it's harassment would depend on their attitude and persistence). But if it happened just once, and if the individual permitted himself to be blown off, I wouldn't care. If the individual clings or becomes abusive, then I start looking for security [*]. But if we have multiple individuals showing up every day and stopping people to talk about their issue, then it seems to me that we're talking about an organized group activity of some kind. Presumably the mall would have regulations permitting or disallowing such things and would be within its rights to put a stop to the activity or even to support the activity if the owners happened to agree with it (in which case I avoid that particular mall, which isn't a biggie because I avoid malls as a rule anyway). [*] In the t-shirt case I've heard nobody allege that the men were forcing people to have conversations, or that they were getting on soapboxes to speechify, or that they were part of an organized group devoted to doing such things. Nick quoted a police report that mentioned gatherings but I can't tell if that's legalese or if people actually were so offended at the shirts that they started gathering around Do the dirty looks of a Macy's clerk count as a gathering? Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lawyer Arrested for Wearing a 'Peace' T-Shirt
On Thu, 6 Mar 2003, Dan Minette wrote: Reductio ad absurdum. Nobody is claiming that here. The reference to brownshirt alludes to that, I think. Self-appointed brownshirt - please get the whole quote. Which precludes an accusation of government wrongdoing, but which, yes, certainly alludes to the willingness of some ordinary people to behave like fascist gits under certain circumstances and when given a convenient excuse. If private property makes it legal for them to do so, it doesn't make the mall cops - or perhaps I should say mall management, or the Macy's clerk, or whoever it was that couldn't tolerate the sight of dissenting speech - nongits. Depending on the facts of the case, of course But so far as I can tell, the offenders did nothing but wear t-shirts and be seen on a solitary occasion. I also agree that we need to work on having more civil disagreements. I think there was no comment on Gautam's examples because there was no one who was interested in defending the behavior of the folks Gautam had issue with. It was wrong to do that, pure and simple. That is another example of people not being willing to put the effort into civility. ...? I must have missed this. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lawyer Arrested for Wearing a 'Peace' T-Shirt
On Thu, 6 Mar 2003, Dan Minette wrote: Reading through the complaint, I think what they couldn't stand is a heated argument in the mall. And, that's exactly what the person arrested was interested in. I agree that he probably didn't start the arguement, but was happy when it started. Arguements in malls are bad for business. I think you need look no further than Macy's wanting no distractions from the most important business of shopping at Macy's. Lol. :) Those are good points, but...so what if he was happy? If he didn't start it, why blame the shirt (if you're a mall cop) as opposed to the individual(s) who couldn't abide the shirt? Obviously *they* were happy to have the argument, too. And if they *started* the argument, then they were the cause of the problem. Unless it's a magic argument-starting Peace Shirt +3 or something. example of people not being willing to put the effort into civility. ...? I must have missed this. Subject: From Sgt. Stryker's Weblog Ah, that. I hadn't made the connection. Surely in this case the harassers are equivalent to whoever started the argument, and not necessarily the person wearing an object that identifies him in some way? IMHO, it is incumbent for each side of the political debate to strongly object to nasty tactics from those who they tend to agree with. Granted. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: How can we do when there's 600,000+ US homeless,etc?(Was:fight the religious dictators)
On Thu, 6 Mar 2003, Bryon Daly wrote: How can we spend all that money on the space program when there's all those homeless, starving people, etc. (paraphrased) This is frustrating. I've found you can apply that argument against many, many actions the govenment does. How do you defend against people using this argument without seeming calloused, uncaring, and mean-spirited? How do I convince my wife the space program is worth the money even though people still continue to die of AIDS or be homeless, etc? Man does not live on bread alone, or something. Much harder to apply to a wasteful space program than an efficient one, though. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Computer Languages [was: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?]
On Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Reggie Bautista wrote: Ahh, GOTO. I remember what a big deal it was when they installed a new version of BASIC at the high school I was attending at the time, and it had two brand new commands (new for us, anyway); GOSUB and RETURN. The programming teachers immediately banned use of GOTO altogether. In retrospect, the days of GOTO seem like the dark ages of programming ;-) I have fond, fond memories of GOTO and GOSUB/RETURN. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Who is the sheriff?
On Wed, 5 Mar 2003, Russell Chapman wrote: Either we support his removal, or we support his continuing reign - we can't just say Oh, if only there was another way The third possibility is that one thinks Saddam doesn't deserve to be planet Earth's - or even the USA's - priority number one. It's arguable that, say, the world AIDS epidemic is a far more immediate threat in humanitarian terms than Saddam and a more grave threat to long-term global stability than either Ba'athism or Islamic radicalism. Or it's arguable - or perhaps I should say, it's a plausible object of fear - that the New American Century of global US hegemony that starts with the remaking of Iraq, and which may hearken a blossoming of freedom in the Middle East, must eventually become the kind of corrupt and corrupting state of affairs that would accelerate the concentration of world power into an increasingly small number of those American hands that can afford it; until inevitably the amount of power held so dwarfs the number of institutional and democratic checks in place that America becomes something that would make the Roman emperors blush. Thus one might resist unilateral war on the grounds of a sort of technicality, for example: Saddam is as guilty as sin but if containment can keep him as relatively weak as he is now, then perpetuating that state of affairs is the lesser evil when compared with giving *any* nation - which means that nation's defacto ruling class - the combination of power and precedent that a unilateral war implies in this context. (America will always find reasons to need a little more power; the people who most influence its policies will never be persuaded it's in their interests to give up a little power; the rationales for preemptive war, once baptized in blood, will be ever expanded and never contracted; the US's track record over the last 50 years cannot be taken as a good indicator of what will happen in the next 100 or 200 because the old checks on American power no longer exist; and so on.) (This latter is not so much an argument rooted in present circumstances as a it is an expression of fear rooted in pessimism about the endurance of high principles and good intentions: over the long run and given sufficient power, America's moral center will not hold, things will fall apart, and history will show that the rough beast slouching towards Bethlehem turned out to be the US Army. America has a pretty good track record so far, but unchecked power does not.) I advance these arguments not for their own sake but as examples to point out the false dichotomy inherent in the assertion that any view about Iraq can or ought to be simply boiled down to being pro- or anti-Saddam. If one looks around the world and thinks that in moral terms the money we're about to spend ousting Saddam could be much better spent elsewhere, and if that makes one against this particular war, does that make one pro-Saddam? If that's the case, then shouldn't being in favor of the war mark one as being pro-AIDS, pro-Famine, pro-whatever bad thing that money isn't being spent to correct at this moment? It doesn't quite make sense; it suggests that the weighing of priorities is intrinsically immoral rather than regrettable but necesary. My feeling is that outside the nastiness of some of the ANSWER leadership and some other fringe factions, most war protestors believe that by embracing the concepts about American hegemony and preemptive warfare which a success in Iraq would be used to vindicate, America is starting to take a long dangerous turn similar to the sort the Romans took when they decided that an emperor might be more efficient than a senate. Whether one buys the argument or not, one should at least recognize that it does not in any way contain an attempt to defend Saddam on any ethical grounds whatsoever. It's the recognition that a behemoth gone astray is more dangerous than the most vicious of hyenas. I think there's also a sense that maybe the money we're about to spend, if we're going to spend it anyway, might be better spent in other ways. Plus I think there's a general spiteful resentment and belief that if Bush succeeds in Iraq, he and his party will have an almost unassailable position from which to carry out their most conservative policies at home as well, and American protestors have what they feel to be their own personal interests at stake in addition to any theories they may have about the well-being of the world. I'm not sure if this crosses the line from enlightened self-interest into hypocrisy or not. Me, I'm still ambivalent about the whole thing. Friedman had an editorial in the NY Times the other day that I found compelling - he said he feels drawn to the daring and vision of the Bush plan for the Middle East, and thus tends to favor the war, but he also thinks that the Bush team might be the worst people to implement such a plan in all its gory details. I
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Sun, 2 Mar 2003, Jim Sharkey wrote: See, that's the problem. To paraphrase Dennis Miller, if some ensign can turn on a switch, crack open a Romulan ale, and have Seven of Nine do the naked mambo on his johnson, why the heck would he ever do any work? :-) So the really big question is, who's the poor slob who has to clean the holodeck? Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Fri, 28 Feb 2003, Ronn!Blankenship wrote: Interesting! I never saw many of the animated episodes, though I read a number of the James Blish short stories based on them. IIRC, Alan Dean Foster did the books based on TAS, while Blish adapted the TOS episodes, and wrote one original novel entitled Spock Must Die! Ohhh, you're right! I'm getting this stuff from my childhood all mixed up in my mind. (Which, as they say, is the first thing to go.) Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Bill Moyers: Take back the flag
Bill Moyers on Patriotism and the American Flag I wore my flag tonight. First time. Until now I haven't thought it necessary to display a little metallic icon of patriotism for everyone to see. It was enough to vote, pay my taxes, perform my civic duties, speak my mind, and do my best to raise our kids to be good Americans. Sometimes I would offer a small prayer of gratitude that I had been born in a country whose institutions sustained me, whose armed forces protected me, and whose ideals inspired me; I offered my heart's affections in return. It no more occurred to me to flaunt the flag on my chest than it did to pin my mother's picture on my lapel to prove her son's love. Mother knew where I stood; so does my country. I even tuck a valentine in my tax returns on April 15. So what's this doing here? Well, I put it on to take it back. The flag's been hijacked and turned into a logo -- the trademark of a monopoly on patriotism. On those Sunday morning talk shows, official chests appear adorned with the flag as if it is the good housekeeping seal of approval. During the State of the Union, did you notice Bush and Cheney wearing the flag? How come? No administration's patriotism is ever in doubt, only its policies. And the flag bestows no immunity from error. When I see flags sprouting on official lapels, I think of the time in China when I saw Mao's little red book on every official's desk, omnipresent and unread. For the rest: http://www.pbs.org/now/commentary/moyers19.html Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Labour revolt
On Thu, 27 Feb 2003, Richard Baker wrote: It must be nice to live in a country like the US that can have two seemingly reasonably competent parties at the same time... Yeah. Let us know when you find one, will you? :-) Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Salon.com article: Capt. Kirk's bulging trousers
That's pretty good! I wonder how many actors besides Shatner went commando, though In those flimsy tight pants, underwear probably would have shown through in a manner very obvious to the actors if not to the average TV viewer of the day. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Mon, 24 Feb 2003, Reggie Bautista wrote: Marvin wrote: Ok, I just had to check... http://www.samueljohnson.com/refuge.html which has the quote as Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. When I was looking for that quote to post it, I found not 1, not 2, but 3 pages that stated it as ...of the incompetent. And now I can't find any. I'm guessing Johnson's phrase has been riffed on and paraphrased so many times (cf Salvor Hardin) that *lots* of people misremember it. Guess how that makes me feel :-) Don't worry. We like you *because* you're a scoundrel. ;) Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Tue, 25 Feb 2003, Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo wrote: From: Marvin Long, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ahhh...I had the 1701 ERTL model for a long time - I still have a die-cast TOS Enterprise that shoots little yellow round photon torpedos and has a detachable shuttle. I bought it from Sears in the seventies with a $20 bill I found lying on the ground in the Fort Worth Botanical Gardens. Any idea how much it is worth now? ;-) Not really. Lemme go play with Google... [swirly swirly swirly swirly swirly] ...ok, in mint condition it looks like this toy by Dinky might go for US$80-100 or so. Based on the small sample of sites I viewed, mint condition is pretty hard to find. Mine is hardly in mint condition, but it does have something going for it -- I still have three of the plastic photon torpedoes, which most others don't seem to have any, and nothing is broken, although the decals are worn and the white plastic has faded in places. Whoops - no sooner do I write that than I find this - Oh, this is sweet. Very tempting. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=3116806456category=1187 I remember reading that Rodenberry specifically dictated against creating an atmosphere that would possibly breed another Kirk/Spock/McCoy three-headed monster. Deep down, Rodenberry resented the power Shatner and Nimoy had over the episodes, etc. It's in their contract!! Paramount cannot do anything to the characters of Kirk and Spock without the approval of the actors who portray them. Not even printing a picture to which they object. Ha! I can see that. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Tue, 25 Feb 2003, Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo wrote: And TOS doesn't have holodeck episodes. Marvin Long Does the continuity of The Animated Series count? They did have the holodeck there! Courtesy of DC Fontana, I believe. :) Interesting! I never saw many of the animated episodes, though I read a number of the James Blish short stories based on them. I guess I missed that one. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Tue, 25 Feb 2003, Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo wrote: Unfortunately, 16+ years of ST:TNG episodes on re-runs aren't helping that. Maybe somebody in Paramount hopes that if they re-run the episodes long enough, the characters will achieve the same legendary status. Tough luck. 16+ years$#!*, now I feel old! Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Tue, 25 Feb 2003, Julia Thompson wrote: You can still feel old, though. Remember piling into one Jester dorm room to watch it with a zillion other geeks? :) Ah, memories. A dozen plus people chanting macho macho Picard (or whoever's in a fight at that moment, except Worf, who despite his machismo is inevitably beaten by little old ladies and other such characters) is hardly to be missed. In retrospect it's more proof that we really just wanted to watch Kirk conking aliens with big foam rocks, no matter what anybody says. :-) Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
More Star Trek stuff
A question about Roddenberry the the third season of TOS -- did he betray his fans? Being iced in today and having a day away from work, I took the opportunity to read Shatner's _Star Trek Memories_, which has been gathering dust for about a year on a bookshelf. His account of the fan-based mail campaign to keep ST on the air for a third season corresponds to accounts I've read elsewhere, as does his explanation of Roddenberry's decision to pull back from the show, i.e., he told NBC that if they dumped ST in a lousy Friday night 10pm time slot for the third season, he would cease taking an active role in the production of the series. NBC called his bluff, and Roddenberry decided that he couldn't allow his bluffs to be called if he ever wanted to have any leverage in Hollywood ever again, so he basically quit in fact if not in title and hired another guy to take over his duties. Presumably the decision was also motivated by exhaustion and frustration from constantly fighting with the network brass, plus he had a chance to work on a movie project that he thought would give a boost to his career. Reflecting on this account, I'm struck by two things. One, being the producer of a two-year-old TV series with bad Nielsen ratings should not, I think, give anyone the illusion of being a major Hollwood player with the ability to strongly influence the money-based decisions of network executives. Two, if hundreds of thousands of loyal fans - organized by the efforts of a smaller group of superloyal fans including some of your colleagues - are responsible by virtue of their mass effort for basically giving you a job (or allowing you to keep the job you have for another year), shouldn't you do that job? So what if the Friday night time slot is the kiss of death...do you go out with a bang or a whimper? (Is there a Roddenberry-equivalent person for Farscape? If the fan campaign to save Farscape were victorious but that person were to step away from the show, would the fans have a right to feel betrayed? Other thoughts: I watched ST:TMP and ST:TWoK this weekend (the new editions). I still like the first one better, and the soundtrack feels better integrated with the story to my ears. That said, I can certainly understand why my opinion is in the minority - ST:TWoK offers more in the way of the standard forms of dramatic apppeal. Two things about TWoK jumped out at me though. One, do you remember the idiotic IDIC (infinite diversity in infinite combinations) medallion from TOS that Roddenberry made Spock wear in the third season to give a boost to a ST toy line he had invested in? And which Nimoy resented so much? I just noticed for the first time that in Nimoy's quarters on the Enterprise, he has a giant shimmery wall tapestry that reproduces the IDIC symbol. It looks like it's made out of recycled disco-ball mirrors, but it's there. It's the scene where Spock tells Kirk that piloting a starship is his first, best detiny. Two, Khan is not not not not not Ahab. Read Moby Dick: Ahab is a good and courageous man slowly driven to madness by grief and pain and superstitious obsession. Even in his madness his fundamental decency shines through; that's why he's so compelling. Khan, whatever his gifts, was never decent to begin with - he is a megalomaniac patterned after the Hitlers of the world and written specifically to evoke them. Ahab has his share of sinful pride, too, but Khan has none of Ahab's moral depth, nor any ounce of the fear and wonder at God's universe that helps drive Ahab to his death. If there's an Ahab in Star Trek, it would be Kirk, who sacrifices ship and his son and the needs of the many in order to satisfy his need for one. The only reason he doesn't go down with his ship and crew is because the ST formula forbids it. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, Bryon Daly wrote: TNG featured more personal character growth than TOS did (which isn't saying much, really), but not as much as it should/could have had. For every The Inner Light episode (IMHO the single best trek episode ever), there were 10 episodes something like Geordi gets killed then later resurrected, the reset button gets pushed, and it's never brought up again. The powers that run the ST franchise seem anchored to producing stand-alone episodes and fear continuity/character evolution; only occasionally daring to experiment with it in a deliberate way. Contrast this with Babylon 5, where the characters at the end have grown/changed in dramatic but believable ways gradually over the course of the show. Yup. (Notice how I'm salivating over the B5 DVDs and ignoring the TNG DVDs...) As for why some people like TNG vs hate TOS, I think a lot has to do with the fact that TOS is almost 20 years older than TNG, and it's dated by many of the same attitudes and assumptions of other 60's TV, like, say, Wagon Train. (Which is what Rodenberry was aiming for - a Wagon Train to the Stars). I've never watched Wagon Train. To me it seems as though TOS is more like an outer-space version of the Outer Limits with a recurring main cast. For example, while Uhura may have been groundbreaking at the time, the role of women in TOS is largely as love interest for Kirk, to be shown in those godawful soft-filter closeups. And when the show had a social/moral point to make, it wasn't very subtle about it, clubbing the point home (again, similar to other 60's TV). Those are good points. TNG was never very subtle about its messages, though, either. And its feminism always struck me as a little strained (hm, booty for Kirk or 7 years of Troi...hard call there) - almost like, Ok, we have a bigger selection of rotating stereotypes - happy now? Still, TNG does do better than TOS in a lot of ways in this regard. My wife, who's not a SF fan at all, can tolerate TNG, but honestly thinks that TOS is campy, and actually intended to be so, despite my efforts to convice her it was a serious show. See, TNG falls into unintentional camp a lot of the time, too, I think...it's just more contemporary camp. Kirk may get more than his fair share of voluptuous green-skinned women, but at least he doesn't leer and wag his tongue like Riker whenever the words shore leave are uttered. And TOS doesn't have holodeck episodes. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Sat, 22 Feb 2003, Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo wrote: TOS is embedded in the collective consciousness in a way TNG can never even aspire to be. I remember working as IT in San Juan's Public Works Dept. I used to have ERTL's NCC1701-A model Ahhh...I had the 1701 ERTL model for a long time - I still have a die-cast TOS Enterprise that shoots little yellow round photon torpedos and has a detachable shuttle. I bought it from Sears in the seventies with a $20 bill I found lying on the ground in the Fort Worth Botanical Gardens. proudly displayed next to my server as an in-joke with my programmers, since we used to call the old server Enterprise. On one occasion, one of the carpenters from the department was working on an addition to my office, and the minute he walks in, he stares at the model, and he goes, Wait.. isn't that Captain Kirk's ship? From Star Trek?. Needless to say, I was very pleasantly surprised. That's how far TOS has traveled; if the Enterprise has gone all the way into the minds of people from all levels of society and all walks of life exchange points of view about science fiction and its' impact, then it really *has* gone where no man has gone before. Cool! The magic of Star Trek: TOS is in no small part due to, in the words of Nick Meyer, those characters. TOS works due to the familiarity of its' characters with the audience. TNG, nor Voyager, nor DS9, nor Enterprise (I did get to see my first episode wednesday!!) have been able to reproduce the chemistry found between Kirk and company. One of my favorite episodes of DS9 is Trials and Tribbleations. Guess why. :) In the opening sequences of this episode, the writers try, in vain, to introduce a concept in DS9 which is almost unfamiliar to DS9: banter in the bridge. A vain attempt to imitate the spirit of familiarity that we found in TOS, but it falls flat. This can never be duplicated. I've wondered if putting a truly accomplished actor like Patrick Stewart at the helm ruined things in this regard. Gravitas tends to kill familiarity, and it seems to me that as long as the commanding officer's prime requisite is the ability to project an air of august wisdom and authority - which Avery Brooks and Kate Mulgrew tried to re-create, I think - the surrounding characters are likely to fade into the background. Lots of TNG fans like to point out what a better actor Stewart is compared to Shatner - but I've never heard anyone argue that Picard/Crusher/X (X being Riker or Data or Troi or Worf or ..?) made a better core ensemble than Kirk/Spock/McCoy. The more I think about it, the more the TOS cast feels like a group of sort of blue-collar colleagues. It feels as though, in off hours, you could expect Kirk to kick back with some redshirts and smoke a cigarette and practice judo moves. Picard is by contrast an aristocrat, isolated not just by rank but by manners and breeding from the relative commoners beneath him. Kirk is uncomfortable as an admiral, a fish out of water, whereas Picard sometimes seems like he's slumming (which Stewart was, technically, but oh well) by condescending to command just one starship at a time. Also, the scripts of TOS were written, in great part, by great SciFi writers (Ellison, et al) and great SciFi minds like Gene Coon and Rodenberry who understood what SciFi was all about. TNG's Ron Moore and Brannon Braga, who have written or edited almost all of the episodes of TNG and its' re-incarnations, in no way compare to the minds behind TOS. Michael Piller did pen some great moments of TNG, but he eventually ended up relinquished to a second or third place in the staff. Star Trek is now a franchise. I liked it better when it was a VERY good TV show, with provocative ideas that stimulated the minds of its' viewers. If TNG and its' predecessors could emulate, or duplicate, that effect, I swear to you I would NEVER turn off my TV set. Interesting. I tend to think of TOS as being (mostly) good SF that happened to be on TV; by contrast, I think of TNG as being (mostly) good TV that happened to incorporate a certain amount of SF - hence its longevity but also its recurring bouts of fluffiness. I've also seen comments in this thread related to Star Trek 5, and I'd like to say something about it as well. snip Huh! I might actually have to watch it again from this perspective. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Sat, 22 Feb 2003, Reggie Bautista wrote: You don't remember Salvor Hardin, the mayor who said Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right, Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent and many other sayings, and is one of the coolest politicians in science fiction? Ok, he was very cool, and I've tended to remember the sayings if not the name. Sacrilege! Reggie Bautista Patriotism is the last refuge of the incompetent. --Samuel Johnson (1709 - 1784) I thought patriotism was the last refuge of the *scoundrel.* (?) Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Sun, 23 Feb 2003, Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo wrote: However, and someone out there must agree with me, *something* happened with the Trek franchise after the end of TNG and shortly after Generations was released. If I must find hard evidence of this claim, I can mention that the popularity of Trek merchandising (Paramount's hottest ever!!) started to decay in rapid numbers. Compared to what it used to be during the heydey of TNG and the Trek films, it's basically nonexistent. I think Generations had the effect of proving that of TNG's cast only Stewart had any business being on a movie screen. Of course, by the time ST:TMP came out, the original cast already included a number of cultural icons - putting them on the big screen just confirmed that status. TNG was a popular show, but as you've pointed out earlier, it was not a cast of iconic characters. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Mon, 24 Feb 2003, Steve Sloan II wrote: Marvin Long, Jr. wrote: Patriotism is the last refuge of the incompetent. --Samuel Johnson (1709 - 1784) I thought patriotism was the last refuge of the *scoundrel.* (?) I'm guessing that Mark Twain (?) paraphrased Samuel Johnson's quote. Ok, I just had to check... http://www.samueljohnson.com/refuge.html Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Tacky Star Trek models on eBay.....
On Sun, 23 Feb 2003, Ronn!Blankenship wrote: Are you old enough to remember the US Bicentennial? I'll take a red, white, and blue _Enterprise_ over a red, white, and blue toilet seat or a red, white, and blue coffin any day . . . Mm. I remember visiting a train...Freedom Train or Liberty Train I think...full of historical geegaws and exhibits and souvenirs. And bunting. Lots of bunting. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The Day the Protest Music Died
The solution, of course, is to actually go somewhere and listen to real live musicians who don't owe their souls to David Geffen with other real live people who have decided, like you, that pop radio sucks. (Easier said than done, depending on where you live, but still.) It won't fix radio - unless enough people do it - but it might make you feel better to have that sudden flash of satisfaction that comes from remembering that music is meant to be a social interaction and not just sterile consumable. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: G** C******, was Re: while Rob's away, the list will play....
On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, Ronn!Blankenship wrote: As was mine. If you'll look carefully at my rant, you'll notice that I tried hard to be equally hard on extremists on both sides of the issue. Mm hm. It did seem like a sincerely asked question, though. liberal version NRA - call it the Commie-Queer Bleeding Heart Rifle Association - would perform the positive functions of the NRA with respect to sport and safety without crawling into bed with the NRA's political bedfellows. So when are you going to tell us how to join? Send me a check for $29.95, and in addition to your own genuine inkjet-printed membership card to the Commie-Queer Bleeding Heart Rifle Association, you'll also get FREE with your membership an official CQBHRA T-shirt with the slogan, I'm Black/White/Brown/Yellow/Red/Peach-ish/ Coffee-colored/Left-Leaning/Gay/Lesbian/Bi/Transgendered/anti-fundamentalist/ anti-groupthink/pro-pleasure/pro-individual/pro-society and I have a gun. BOO!! DISCLAIMER: Members of the CQBHRA are not required to be communist or queer, but you might get invited to some interesting parties if you are. Membership in the CQBHRA does not guarantee bleeding but leaving a gun where a child can reach it might. Recent intellectual property rulings state that receiving an idea of a t-shirt is equivalent to receiving a t-shirt itself, so members will not receive an actual t-shirt; rather, they will be licensed to produce one t-shirt with the CQBHRA slogan per fully paid membership fee. Shooting the piano player is permitted only after the third performance of The Entertainer in an evening. Shooting the bagpipe player is never permitted; however, ravishing the bagpipe player is encouraged as an alternative means of stopping him or her playing according to the 2001 Act in Support of the Performing Arts as passed by the Scottish Parliament. To discourage road rage, use public transportation. To discourage public transportation rage, let fellow passengers see the grip of the concealed Sig Sauer poking from your stylishly half-opened jacket. There is no sex in the Champagne Room and nobody will give you one hundred dollars for responding to their e-mail. Possession of elected office does not guarantee election. George Lucas's beard hasn't fooled anyone into thinking that's actually his neck down there since 1983. Yes, I am a pervy Hobbit-fancier, but there's nothing wrong with that. Sam will probably kill me. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Sun, 23 Feb 2003, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Marvin is a robot Alberto Monteiro I prefer the term industrial mandroid, thank you. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Reggie Bautista wrote: It's interesting to see how two different people can like the same things for different and sometimes contradictory reasons. I think your analysis is really very good, but you obviously look at ST:TOS and ST:TNG differently than I, and that's because we seem to like the show for different reasons. You seem to like ST:TOS primarily for the what-if, the pure science fiction anthology element of it. I liked that element, but one of the main reasons I like TOS is the relationship between Kirk, McCoy, and Spock, and the tension and conflict that arise from their relationship. Actually, this relationship is one of the best things about ST:TOS in my opinion, and I love it as well. But it's not really a relationship that grows from episode to episode. (It grows on the viewer, but that's different.) The actors get better at expressing it; but you don't really see a narrative of character growth and change from episode to episode until the movies kick in. On the other hand, this is precisely the thing that makes ST:TNG successful and, I suspect, appealing to a much broader audience (I know a number of people who love ST:TNG but can't stand the original series, and I suspect it's not just the scenery dripping from Shatner's teeth that puts them off). Spock suggests the logical course of action, McCoy gives the humanitarian or emotional way of doing things, and Kirk has to find the balance between those. Spock and McCoy are almost the angel and devil on Kirk's shoulders, except that leaning too far in *either* direction is a bad thing. For all of Kirk's brashness, in many ways he is the Platonic ideal of taking the middle road. He is the Golden Mean, leaning more toward emotion than logic, but using both to best effect. I think it's their fixedness in these archetypal roles that makes TOS dramatically weak as a serial, however. With the exception of Spock's spiritual quest, which only really takes off in ST:TMP, TOS doesn't have a narrative of growth and change for its characters as individuals. So, while it's great fun to watch them, you're not going to learn much new about them from episode to episode except for the plot details of a given week's big idea. Contrast this to ST:TNG, where Picard and Data and Worf and Riker Troy and, hell, even Wesley have ongoing issues and projects and concrete pasts that the series returns to again and again over the years to show how people grow and change and have private lives that matter to them. The tension involved in staying on that middle path is the main thing that drew me to TOS even as a kid, and still draws me to it today. It's something my dad used to talk about to me all the time. Use you emotions, and use your brain, but when you have to choose between the two, trust your emotions more. Logic can be *much* more misleading, and in more insidious ways. (I know I'm probably gonna get hit hard on this one on-list, depending on who reads this...) See, one of the really cool things about ST:TMP for me is that it takes just this tension and pushes it about as far as it can go. Plus, we actually see the characters mature and change through the movie. They are estranged when they meet, but when the movie ends, they're back to the heroic trio we know and love, but wiser than before and all that good stuff. And Spock has taken his first steps toward becoming the Great Rabbi of the Galaxy (or something like that). ;-) So, for me ST:TMP pushes the original Trek formula to its highest point. ST:TWoK jiggers with the formula and allows Trek to hit other points, many of them high, but of the movies none capture the Star Trek spark that I loved as a kid the way that ST:TMP does. ST:TWoK is a close, close second...but it's still second for me. One of the main weaknesses I see in TNG is that the relationships between the major characters are too bland. The characters are each interesting in themselves, but there is no tension in their interactions, with the exception of Dr. Pulaski in the second season, and I didn't much like her anyway; she functioned more as a two-dimensional... hmm, maybe one-dimensional foil to highlight the humanity of Data. TNG has no dance between being letting the heart rule or letting the head rule, no finding that magical middle ground. In TNG, all those decisions are foregone conclusions (well, for the most part, anyway, as all of this is generalizing to lesser or greater extents). That's true, in a way: Picard combines the traits of Kirk and Spock for the most part, with Data acting as sort of a walking calculator/Eliza machine/straight man. On the other hand, the blandness of the characters' interactions is a product of the fact that in TNG, they actually have normal lives outside the scope of the week's unfolding plot drama (that, and everybody is unfailingly politically correct, even the Klingon). Kirk, Spock, and Bones don't
Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, Ronn!Blankenship wrote: Khan is Ahab, Kirk is the whale. C'mon, Shatner wasn't THAT big. :-) Scotty, perhaps? ducking Unlike Scotty Marvin Long Gratuitous pratfall Maru Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, The Fool wrote: LOL! I've read Moby Dick twice, sir, and STII is no Moby Dick. :-) It quotes Moby Dick, true. Plot by Ian Fleming, with additional dialogue by Dickens and Melville. Khan is Ahab, Kirk is the whale. C'mon, Shatner wasn't THAT big. :-) Khan isn't Ahab. Khan is Dr. Evil with an Ahab fixation. There's a difference. Marvin Long Is Spock Queequeg Maru? Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo wrote: True. ST2 is Nick Meyer's interpretation of Star Trek. Remember that as good as ST:TMP was, it didn't really do as well as the studio expected at the box office. Therefore, they went along with Harve Bennet's view of episodic television's recipe for success. In ST:TMP, the Enterprise is a big, QE2 type of super-cruiser. In ST2, Nick Meyer turns the Enterprise basically into a WW2 submarine, and the fight in the Mutara Nebula is arguably one of the best submarine space battles in movie history. Cinefantastique called ST6's space battle the best ever, but I think WoK beats that. I'd have to agree. STII's space battles are etched into my brain. All I remember of STVI's space battle is the purple blood in zero-G. A wise choice. I bought the original DVD releases, and I'm finding myself buying the new editions of the DVD's, though. So far, the only one's worth the money, are ST:TMP with the restored footage and newly shot special fx. WoK has some extra footage, but they stopped adding extra footage in STIII. That disappointed me. Well, I do have the special edition DVDs of STI STII. I attended a lecture by Leonard Nimoy a few months ago at which a fan asked him about the lack of new footage in STIII. Nimoy grinned and replied that he got the movie right the first time. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Jon Gabriel wrote: L3?!? 9K?!? It's just a TV show! Get a life, people! Move out of your parent's basements! Ha! I resemble that remark! :-) Marvin Long Best SNL Ever Maru Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Marvin Long, Jr. wrote: On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Jon Gabriel wrote: L3?!? 9K?!? It's just a TV show! Get a life, people! Move out of your parent's basements! Ha! I resemble that remark! :-) PS - Would you prefer another 9k about Iraq? ;- Marvin Long Quantify your Blessings Maru Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo wrote: Take a look at any pre-DVD version of the movie. When the Enterprise leaves drydock the first time, look at the lower left hand corner of the screen (your left hand). You see the clamp as it gently moves the model forward. I always thought it was funny. But it took away the credibility a bit. And judging by the impressive roster of the sfx film (Doug Trumbull and co.), they should've noticed!! Huh. I think I've always focused on the saucer bits. I remember reading that the postproduction was really rushed at the time, so maybe this particular goof just wasn't high enough on the list of priorities. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Your Favorite SciFi/Fantasy Movie Soundtrack?
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, The Fool wrote: STII is..Moby Dick. LOL! I've read Moby Dick twice, sir, and STII is no Moby Dick. :-) It quotes Moby Dick, true. Plot by Ian Fleming, with additional dialogue by Dickens and Melville. What killed it was that it was never edited. I was speaking of the original TV series, theorizing that ratings were hurt in part by a lack of continuous human drama from week to week to attract the non-SF viewer. (A lack of strong studio backing didn't exactly help, either.) The first cut was the cut that played in theaters. Those really long sequences of special effects, and nothing else. Granted TMP had the best special effects of any of the movies up to ST6 ($100m in 1980 dollars worth). Tastes will vary, I suppose. The long effects sequeneces with brief reaction shots are better, for my money, than filling the script with endless mounds of babbling Treknology-speak in the manner of the ST:TNG and the spin-offs that followed. Mainly because the effects sequences are *good* and the music is *good* and a story is told thereby. Opera. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Scouted: Huffington on ShrubCo
What the Cheney White House really wants out of Iraq For the morally flexible oilman and his cronies, it's all about money. Arianna Huffington, Feb. 19, Salon.com Boys, boys, you're all right. Sure, it's Daddy, oil, and imperialism, not to mention a messianic sense of righteous purpose, a deep-seated contempt for the peace movement, and, to be fair, the irrefutable fact that the world would be a better place without Saddam Hussein. But there's also an overarching mentality feeding the administration's collective delusions, and it can be found by looking to corporate America's bottom line. The dots leading from Wall Street to the West Wing situation room are the ones that need connecting. There's money to be made in postwar Iraq, and the sooner we get the pesky war over with, the sooner we (by which I mean George Bush's corporate cronies) can start making it. The nugget of truth that former Bush economic guru Lawrence Lindsey let slip last fall shortly before he was shoved out the Oval Office door says it all. Momentarily forgetting that he was talking to the press and not his buddies in the White House, he admitted: The successful prosecution of the war would be good for the economy. To hell with worldwide protests, an unsupportive Security Council, a diplomatically dubious Hans Blix, an Osama giddy at the prospect of a united Arab world, and a panicked populace grasping at the very slender reed of duct tape and Saran Wrap to protect itself from the inevitable terrorist blow-back -- the business of America is still business. No one in the administration embodies this bottom line mentality more than Dick Cheney. The vice president is one of those ideological purists who never let little things like logic, morality or mass murder interfere with the single-minded pursuit of profitability. His on-again, off-again relationship with the Butcher of Baghdad is a textbook example of what modern moralists condemn as situational ethics, an extremely convenient code that allows you to do what you want when you want and still feel good about it in the morning. In the Cheney White House (let's call it what it is), anything that can be rationalized is right. The two were clearly on the outs back during the Gulf War, when Cheney was secretary of defense, and the first President Bush dubbed Saddam Hitler revisited. Then Cheney moved to the private sector and suddenly things between him and Saddam warmed up considerably. With Cheney in the CEO's seat, Halliburton helped Iraq reconstruct its war-torn oil industry with $73 million worth of equipment and services -- becoming Baghdad's biggest such supplier. Kinda nice how that worked out for the vice-president, really: oversee the destruction of an industry that you then profit from by rebuilding. When, during the 2000 campaign, Cheney was asked about his company's Iraqi escapades, he flat-out denied them. But the truth remains: When it came to making a buck, Cheney apparently had no qualms about doing business with Hitler revisited. And make no mistake, this wasn't a case of hard-nosed realpolitik -- the rationale for Rummy's cuddly overtures to Saddam back in '83 despite his almost daily habit of gassing Iranians. That, we were told, was all about the enemy of my enemy is my friend. No, Cheney's company chose to do business with Saddam after the rape of Kuwait. After Scuds had been fired at Tel Aviv and Riyadh. After American soldiers had been sent home from Desert Storm in body bags. And in 2000, just months before pocketing his $34 million Halliburton retirement package and joining the GOP ticket, Cheney was lobbying for an end to U.N. sanctions against Saddam. Of course, American businessmen are nothing if not flexible. So his former cronies at Halliburton are now at the head of the line of companies expected to reap the estimated $2 billion it will take to rebuild Iraq's oil infrastructure following Saddam's ouster. This burn-and-build approach to business guarantees that there will be a market for Halliburton's services as long as it has a friend in high places to periodically carpet bomb a country for it. In the meantime, Halliburton, among many other Pentagon contracts, has a lucrative 10-year deal to provide food services to the Army that comes with no lid on potential costs. Lenin once scoffed that a capitalist would sell rope to his own hangman. And, while the man got more than a few things wrong, he's been proven right on this one time and time again: from Hewlett-Packard and Bechtel helping arm Saddam back in the '80s, to the good folks at Boeing, Hughes Electronics, Lockheed Martin and Loral Space whose corporate greed helped China steal rocket and missile secrets -- and point a few dozen long-range nukes our way. Clearly, our national interest runs a distant second when pitted against the rapacious desires of special interests and the politicians they buy with massive
Re: Irregulars Question (New), was Re: Book Suggestions: TheBest ofCurrent SciFi?
On Mon, 17 Feb 2003, G. D. Akin wrote: Amercian Gods . . . 2002 Hugo winner and probably even odds on taking home the Nebula in April as well. I thought it was different, imaginative, but not anything to write home about or recommend to anyone. A little shy of the halfway point, I'm really enjoying it. It's reminding me that I need to go and finish reading Joseph Campbell's Masks of God series. The book's central conceit about the nature of gods isn't terribly original, but the way that conceit is mapped on to American culture is quite spiffy to my mind. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Scouted: Flo Control device
My wife found this nifty web site about, um, pussy control. So to speak. http://www.quantumpicture.com/Flo_Control/flo_control.htm Marvin Long Pussycat Maru Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Irregulars Question (New), was Re: Book Suggestions: TheBest ofCurrent SciFi?
On Sat, 15 Feb 2003, Doug Pensinger wrote: G. D. Akin wrote: I have two reasons for you to finish Moving Mars. 1. It is a good book, a good story. I will admit, it started off slowly, but persistence pays off. I enjoyed it very much as well. I just finished Blood Music and would recommend it too. I guess I'll have to give it another chance. I was really pumped up to read Moving Mars after having finished Blood Music and Forge of God, but I spent the first chapter or two thinking, Is this the same guy? Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Irregulars Question (New), was Re: Book Suggestions: TheBest ofCurrent SciFi?
On Mon, 17 Feb 2003, G. D. Akin wrote: Both Blood Music and Forge of God were enjoyable reads. Blood Music is a very chilling tale of biology gone wrong. Forge of God is just as chilling in an end-of-the-world tale--of which I am a sucker for (my all-time favorite is Lucifer's Hammer by Niven and Pournelle). Its sequel, Anvil of the Stars I found harder to read, but the ending satisfied me. Anvil is on my bookshelf, waiting for my attention. It'll have to wait until I finish American Gods, though. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Irregulars Question (New), was Re: Book Suggestions: TheBest ofCurrent SciFi?
On Mars books: I can't seem to get past the student uprising part at the beginning of Bear's _Moving Mars_. Should I? Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Irregulars Question (New), was Re: Book Suggestions: TheBest ofCurrent SciFi?
On Fri, 14 Feb 2003, Erik Reuter wrote: I read that one through without skimming -- I enjoyed it. When you say you can't seem to get past do you mean you are bored or offended? Bored. I couldn't bring myself to believe in the character expressed by the young woman's POV. Like a 40 year old guy writing a girl's confessional for Teen People or something. Am I too harsh? It's been a while Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Daredevil review (no spoilers)
I've read some positive reviews and some negative reviews. The important question, of course, is: how is Jennifer Garner's kung fu? Does it look good or does it look like the standard Hollywood bimbette-in-leather-pants Fu? Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Daredevil review (no spoilers)
On Fri, 14 Feb 2003, Gary L. Nunn wrote: She is good, but then again she is good at kicking ass on Alias. I would have been surprised if her action scenes were not good. That sounds promising in a B movie kind of way. Does she avoid the sin of twirling her sai like they're batons? Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: while Rob's away, the list will play....
On Fri, 14 Feb 2003, Gary L. Nunn wrote: While Rob is away taking the big plunge tomorrow (you still have time to run dude!) , I told him that I would keep the list stirred up until he gets back on Sunday. So I would like to suggest that we talk about non controversial and non polarizing subjects like, gun control (always use two hands), abortion, list politics and maybe even acceptable levels of rat droppings in food. My wife and I took a handgun basics class last fall. I felt the need to brush up on the stuff my dad taught me as a kid, and I coaxed my wife into it on the grounds that once she'd fired a real gun she'd find twice as much stupid stuff on TV to heckle. Three interesting things. One, my wife has a natural aptitutude for shooting things that's a little scary. Two, the technical details of handgun grips and stances has changed a bit since my dad was in the Army. Three, I have never been in a more multicultural group than that gun class. White, black, Hispanic, Asian, European (Nordic god goddess is the ethnic category, I think), Indian. I was half-afraid of ending up surrounded by rednecks, but as it happens, practicing handgun skill kinda sorta turns you into a redneck for a little while no matter where you're from vbg. It was a hoot. The experience augmented my growing conviction that this country desperately needs a liberal version of the NRA and leftist types willing to encourage responsible handgun use. You never know when you'll need the second amendment to protect yourself from a nascent security state exploiting TWAT to deprive you of your civil liberties, after all. :-) Oh, and those who insist on wrangling ad nauseam over list politics in this late day and age should go have a rat-dropping burrito (Nick excepted - he's already had his ration). Go, and wank no more! Anyway Rob, if you are not going to run while you have the chance, then good luck dude! Tum, tum tee tum...Tu, tumm, tee tum. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
On Thu, 13 Feb 2003, Kevin Tarr wrote: Okay maybe there was a decline. The sitcoms were a reflection of society. The country was nesting, parents and kids interacting in the home. Same as AitF with younger kids, except now the kids were playing the Archie Role. With Cheers of course being the exception. I hate Cheers. I liked it then but I can't stand to watch a re-run. Seriously other than Seinfeld and the Simpsons I don't like any sitcoms re-runs if they are more than five years old. Won't that be a better yardstick? Can you imagine watching any of the current sitcoms 30 years from now? Nope. I'd watch Barney Miller, though. That was my favorite sitcom when I was a wee lad. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Oh Yeah!
On Wed, 12 Feb 2003, Deborah Harrell wrote: I still occasionally rack up my Battlefield Band Home Is Where The Van Is IIRC, Glascow Police Pipe Band (1970?) and the 1972 Military Tatoo albums, scratches an' au'. At a Celtic Fest I just happened across south of Portland OR, I heard a neat Australian band (Brother, IIRC) who played bagpipe, digeredoo (sp?) and electric guitar; sadly I didn't have enough cash on me to buy a CD (I was supposed to be hiking at Monmouth), and never was able to find them afterward. You poor thing! I saw Brother perform 6 or 7 years ago (gosh, I'm getting old) at a Scottish festival in Arlington, Texas. I picked up one of their CDs and got it signed -- it's a hoot. I like a certain amount of rap, but if you want to distress the person in the thump-thump-thumping car next to you at the stoplight, crank up Brother. (Well, if you're confident the skirling bagpipes won't shred your speakers anyway.) Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: I think we're really back now
Thank you very, very much for all you do. But what's with the meter-long description of the list that keeps popping up in the reply-to field? Seems like overkill, maybe. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Wank II
Wank, wank, wank...oh shit, I'm still at work! Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: I think we're really back now
And there was much rejoicing! Not a one-line reply maru On Wed, 12 Feb 2003, Nick Arnett wrote: Just noticed that myself... We upgraded to the latest released version of Mailman, and I guess it does something different. So I've modified it. Should be different in this message. Nick -- Nick Arnett Phone/fax: (408) 904-7198 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Marvin Long, Jr. Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 2:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: I think we're really back now Thank you very, very much for all you do. But what's with the meter-long description of the list that keeps popping up in the reply-to field? Seems like overkill, maybe. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Oh Yeah!
On Tue, 11 Feb 2003, Jon Gabriel wrote: YAY Congratulations!!! I'm gonna be annoying and pass on a set of totally unsolicited advice that helped me get through my wedding. Feel free to put it in the circular file if you like. :) 1) The day is about you. Put people to work. If you need something done, let your wedding party do it. That's what they're there for. Definitely. We made a tactical mistake at our wedding of not arranging ahead of time who would be responsible for pouring and handing out champagne. So after the photographer took our picture nibbling cake and drinking bubbly, we found ourselves the only people positioned behind a big table - covered with bottles of booze and empty glasses - that was the only thing separating us from a large group of thirsty guests. Habit and instinct kicked in It was still fun, though. 2) Have your best man remind the men to re-check their tuxes, if they're wearing 'em. My best man opened his tux half an hour before the wedding to find he had no bowtie. :) He borrowed one from a hotel front desk clerk. (A smart best man won't tell you something has gone wrong, either. *grin*) :-) Tell your groomsmen to buy the necessary gear for car-decorating pranks beforehand so they don't turn up missing from the reception when you need them. (Look guys, it's fine for you to trash my car, but be prepared!) Speaking of which: 3) Things *will* go wrong. Don't worry about 'em. Nobody but you and your wife will notice when things go wrong, and no one will remember 'em but you, either. When your new brother-in-law and his family finally show up an hour after the reception's over expecting to be allowed to watch the remainder of the Texas-OU game in your living room (as you are tidying up before heading off on your honeymoon) Shit. We never did figure out what to do about that one. 4) Remember that it's your day. Enjoy yourself. Be happy. Have fun! :) Absolutely. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
2-year occupation...maybe
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57781-2003Feb11.html excerpts: Pressed for an idea of how long a military occupation would last before Iraqis could take back the government of their country, his colleague from the State Department, Marc Grossman, said he would guess two years. But the two officials, at a hearing called to discuss the future of Iraq, said they did not know how the United States would manage the Iraqi oil industry, who would cover the costs of reconstruction if oil installations are damaged in the invasion or how they would install a democratic government. There are enormous uncertainties, added Feith. The most you can do in planning is develop concepts... That's our problem. We have been thinking this through as precisely as we can, given the uncertainties. Some of the senators expressed incredulity at the state of the Bush administration's planning and several said they regretted Senate approval last year of military action. There is no informed consent. The American people have no notion of what we are about to undertake. They believe it will be swift and successful and largely bloodless, said Joseph Biden of Delaware, the senior Democrat on the committee. The Republican chairman of the committee, Richard Lugar of Indiana, also faulted the administration for its belated and incomplete planning. Oil will not go away until you make clear how you will manage the oilfields. It needs to be finalized urgently, he added. ... Retired Marine Gen. Anthony Zinni, a former commander of U.S. Central Command, told the same hearing that any Iraqi government favorable to Israel would not last long. By changing the government in Iraq, you don't change the attitude on these (Arab-Israeli) issues. No one could succeed in governance by having this pro-American, pro-Israeli ... approach in this environment today, he said. ** ABC News's coverage of this meeting stated that an office for planning the postwar handling of Iraq was established within the Department of Defence three weeks ago. (I suspect this is more to do with the handling of civilian affairs. I'm sure that regional strategic planning is much more developed. Pretty sure.) Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
But don't call it an occupation...maybe
http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2003/02/11/iraq_plans/index.html Marvin Long ROU Parallax view? Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: war and peace
On Sun, 9 Feb 2003, Matt Grimaldi wrote: NPR _has_ and _does_ mention that the UN inspectors have been unable to interview any scientists alone, (and reporting the big news when they finally get *one* scientist to agree to be interviewed alone) as well as how any reporters out and about with recording gear are assigned a special minder to keep them out of trouble Last Friday afternoon NPR did a report on the symphony orchestra of Baghdad, with an emphasis on the impact of sanctions on the cultural life of Iraq. Lots of interviews of various musicians. The program *did* end with the disclaimer that all interviews happened with minders present, so it's impossible to know if the interviewees spoke their true thoughts and feelings. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: Condolences
On Sun, 9 Feb 2003, Robert Seeberger wrote: Herbie Progenitors Now I understand. I pray for you and yours Doc. And will keep you in my thoughts. It took me some Googling to find, but...my goodness! Condolences and blessings for you and your family. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Scouted: I Can't Believe I'm a Hawk
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/08/opinion/08KELL.html Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: war and peace
On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Erik Reuter wrote: I consider the Bush administration a bunch of wealthy elitists who lived a charmed life, but I don't judge them on that but rather on what they do. Maybe the Iraqi people would do the same? Anything's possible, I suppose. I'm not sure the parallel is very exact, though. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Wank.
On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Robert Seeberger wrote: But just in case I suggest that everyone begin having sex as often as possible in order to make the list a funnier place filled with happier people! G Excellent idea! Just remember to lay a towel on the carpet before you break out the candle wax. ;-) Marvin Long Congrats, by the way! Maru Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: war and peace
On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, John D. Giorgis wrote: Preemptive conquest and nation-building looks a lot like colonialism to a lot of people, especially the conquered. What evidence do you have of this? Does your statement here match what we know about the reactions of the people of Afghanistan or Serbia, to name the two most recent regimes changed by the US? I'm thinking more of all those post-colonial regions of the earth who were once occupied by people believing in their own god-given destiny and who would have no reason to be thrilled by Bush's appropriation of this hoary concept. Bear in mind, please, that I have granted that good case can be made for war in Iraq (although the case was a lot stronger 11-odd years ago); a good case can also be made for delay. I wish I could confidently side with one view, but I can't. It just seems to me that invoking America's manifest destiny is a lousy way to make the former case to any but the religious chauvanist core of the president's party. Out of curiosity, if you see a poor man being beaten on the street by a hoodlum to steal his wallet, what would you do?Let's say that you have a baseball bat, and the hoodlum does not have a weapon.Would you feel any moral obligation to assist the poor man whom you don't know? Of coure. But I wouldn't run through the neighborhood waving the bat about crying, You're next! And you're next! And you're next! God GAVE me this bat to whoop all your sorry hoodlum behinds! Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: war and peace
On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Robert Seeberger wrote: re: white man's burden I see this as a bitter diatribe against imperialism and not so much as a ralling cry for colonialism. Of course I am not a Kipling expert and my interpretation is only informed by my own experience writing poetry. I find the sarcasm blatant and laden with cynisism. To my (admittedly slight) knowledge Kipling was a critic of abusive colonial practices (and of what struck him as a naive American enthusiasm for colonialism in the Phillipines) but a supporter of the idea of a Christian colonial empire. I see in the poem a deep disillusionment with the colonial project combined with a belief it is nevertheless the right thing to do, if done right. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: war and peace
On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Gautam Mukunda wrote: As far as I can tell you're so caught up in the rush of condemning what they did that you're kind of missing what was really going on. No one's defending the Empire as an altruistic endeavor. The extent to which it _was_ conducted in a not-so-bad fashion, though, is quite remarkable. Standing on a high horse and condemning other people is really easy and it feels really good. It's not terribly productive though. Tell me, if we do end up establishing a stable democracy in Iraq (a 50/50 chance at best, given the total # of Arab democracies in the world - I'll give you a hint, Iraq would take it from a round to a linear number) - would you at least feel a little embarassed? I would feel profoundly relieved; and if there's some embarrassment in that I won't mind. But I'm also trying to think beyond just Iraq. It seems to me that there are lots of post-colonial regimes in the world that don't live up to our moral standards and yet pose little threat, but whose cooperation and goodwill would be really, really useful for a global war against terrorist networks. I can't see how Bush's rhetoric about a God-given American destiny could serve any positive purpose in winning over portions of the world that will inevitably be skeptical about US motives and methods. And I don't see how those nations who used to be colonial powers can do anything but laugh at such talk. I understand that rebuilding Japan and Germany were not colonial enterprises; nor was intervening in Kosovo Serbia. Iraq may not be either, depending on how it is handled. So why indulge in language that hearkens back to the 19th century to describe America's role in the world? A question about India - to what degree was the success of colonialism in India a consequence of Britain's sagacity, and to what extent was it due to the resources Indian culture had to bring to bear on the problem of being colonized in the first place? Not all colonizers are equally bad, I agree; but not all colonizees will present colonizers with the same issues, either. I'm genuinely curious here: my knowledge of Indian history is woefully deficient. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: war and peace
On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, J. van Baardwijk wrote: Why would post-war Iraq be the first Iraqi republic? Iraq is *already* a republic. In name only. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: war and peace
On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Gautam Mukunda wrote: Well, Bush's rhetoric is partly aimed at an American audience, and I think largely reflects his own feelings. Post-colonial powers may understand that. But the nations who used to be colonial powers will laugh at that because the cynicism of Old Europe is such that the idea of doing something out of idealism is laughable to them. They know that they never meant it when they used such language, so they assume that we don't either. But we do. Knowing this, then, and knowing that Europeans are not an undifferentiated mass of cynics, why indulge in this rather odd and (IMO) misleading formulation of American idealism? Is manifest destiny the only language of idealism at hand? For all the people who respect and admire America's accomplishments but are nervous about our growing power, what language could be more unnerving then that particular choice? And for Americans who doubt that this is the best use of our power, who haven't made up their minds (like me)...it's just not helpful. Not for me, anyway. I'm inclined to believe the president's intents are charitable, on the whole, but when his secretiveness is combined with such language it makes me very nervous. Thanks for the POV on India. Good stuff to think about. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: war and peace
On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Gautam Mukunda wrote: He definitely felt it was the right thing to do. Kipling was the poet of Empire. Kipling's Recessional, though (probably my favorite Kipling poem) was a warning against Imperial hubris - it's probably the one poem every American should be required to read. Even my father, though, who (understandably, given his background) is about as staunch an anti-imperialist as you can get, will acknowledge that Britain did a lot of good in India. Contrast that with Belgium, for example, which did absolutely no good whatsoever in the Congo. True enough. What Kipling wrote was more than noble and empty sentiments (and, Marvin, the fact that you only see one meaning of the word noble makes me feel kind of sorry for you - would it make things clearer if I said that the astronauts in Columbia were involved in a noble quest or that the firefighters who went into the WTC made a noble sacrifice?) Please. Actually, it's the bitter irony of conflating noble as a blood-borne or god-given right to rule with surpassing excellence of character that makes White Man's Burden hard to swallow as a defense of colonialism (or of a quasi-colonialist attitude on the part of the president). It's the juxtaposition of meanings created by the double-edged history of the word itself that makes it seem bizarre when used in such a context. I know what you meant; but the way you put it seems to discount the tendency of noble intentions to go horribly awry that marked so much of colonialism, not just Kipling's version. - the sentiments had a real and humane effect on large portions of the world. One that it's very easy to regret from our enlightened self-righteousness of the 21st century. Granted, to a point. I'm not sure that the whole world will take the relative idealism of late British empire as characteristic of the history of colonialism in general, though, nor associate it automatically with the kind of language Bush chose to use. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
