Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen vs Battery Power
e giving you a GREAT deal. Though it makes your charging appear more expensive than with a lesser deal. I buy at $.10/kwh and sell at $.06/kwh which makes my charging $.06. OTOH, my utility is willing to buy (pay cash) for as much as I can manage to produce. Even at only $.06, I think my payback period is in the range of 6-8 years. ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210825/1fb485a3/attachment.html> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Cost of PV EV charging
On 8/25/21 7:34 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote: How much do you pay when you charge away from home? Here is an account of a recent trip from central Texas to Pike's Peak using SuperChargers and one destination charge station. https://wmckemie.blogspot.com/2021/08/pikes-peak.html Three nights, four days. You can count the SuperChargers but 4-5 each way. ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Cost of PV EV charging
On 8/25/21 7:34 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote: How much do you pay when you charge away from home? Addressed to me? I have free lifetime SuperCharging on both my current Teslas. I briefly had a Model 3 which did not have free SuperCharging. Average cost was around $5 for around 100 miles. I have rented two RV stalls in Canada. One, in Grand Prairie, was a very reasonable $10 for 3-5 hours. The other, I did not get a break on the full day rate of $45. ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Wiring PP/CP on J1772
That's within spec. Just means they used a 330 ohm for R1 instead of the less common 300 ohm. On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 1:03 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV wrote: > Hmm, interesting. > > Just measured one of mine. When the button is not pressed I see 150 ohms, > and 480 ohms when it is pressed. Again Proiximity Pilot to ground. > > The control pilot pin should show a 1khz square wave from +12V to -12V > > My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key > > August 24, 2021 8:13 PM, "Bob Bath via EV" wrote: > > > Hey, > > It seems the electrician I hired to replace my melted J1772 plug ran the > wiring _along_ the > > microswitch instead of underneath it. > > Upon testing, the new plug did not work. I’m hoping he didn’t mash the > crap out of the wires and > > what appears to be a capacitor or some other discrete component. > > Anyone have some ohmmeter readings I should be getting when the switch > is open vs closed? > > Guessing 0 ohms when open. 😅 > > The plug now does nothing, FYI. Lights on the Aerovironment charger do > nothing. No delay of about > > 1.5 sec followed by what sounds like a relay closing. > > > > Sincerely, > > Bob Bath > > > > Note: any misspellings of the contents of this message are due to 56 > y.o. vision, hyperactive spell > > check changing what I typed, or fat fingering— not cluelessness. > > > >> > > > > ___ > > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive > > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210825/7ff99661/attachment.html> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Cost of PV EV charging
How much do you pay when you charge away from home? - Mark Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > On Aug 25, 2021, at 10:09 AM, Willie via EV wrote: > > > On 8/25/21 11:10 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: ...by Electrify America, they said that they charge 31¢/kWh. >> I have seen rates as low as 3 cents per kW >> for EV charging off-peak for those that sign up for a TOU plan >> (includes much higher peak rates) >> >> "Hydrogen Fool cell" is a reasonable moniker. >> >> Wont this thread ever die? > > ->I<- think it is time for it to die. > > Much discussion back and forth. Little logic. Little promise for the > future. Not a single example of FCEV advantage over BEV. I say at risk of > appearing to gang up on Mark. Even though I have resisted giving that > appearance. > >> OOps, forgot. My home solar makes the EV charging free... >> (Well, no, with Grid tie it costs me 14 cents per kWh >> because that is what each kW is worth that I push back >> into the grid so using it to charge an EV is 14cents/kWh lost). > > Your utility seems to be giving you a GREAT deal. Though it makes your > charging appear more expensive than with a lesser deal. I buy at $.10/kwh > and sell at $.06/kwh which makes my charging $.06. OTOH, my utility is > willing to buy (pay cash) for as much as I can manage to produce. Even at > only $.06, I think my payback period is in the range of 6-8 years. > > > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Cost of PV EV charging
My local electric coop (SLEMCO) has quit taking any more customers who have solar panels and want to have a net meter. We are grandfathered in for 10 years, and then our net meter goes away. SLEMCO did not say what happens to those who were grandfathered for 10 years. We don’t worry about that because we plan to be off-grid before then. Bobby Keeland Arnaudville, Louisiana On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 4:51 PM Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: > > While the Volt won't be able to support more than approx 1kw, > > that's enough to support my critical loads (fridge, freezer, . > > minisplit heat pump) plus a few lights, etc. > > Turns out the DC/DC converter in the VOlt is over 200 amps at > 12 volts so it can support almost 2 kW. Compared to the typical > 100 amps or so from most hybrids. Though the Volt also draws > more overhead, II think 500W. > > Bob > > On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 4:53 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV > wrote: > > >> A couple years after that my 'grandfathered' status runs out and I'll > be switched to their new > > >> 'solar customer' rates, at that point it will cost me over $800 a > year just for the privilege of > > >> being connected to the grid. iI figure it will be cheaper to buy some > used EV batteries and > > >> disconnect, which is what I plan to do. > > > > > > Of course I do not fully understand your situation. But it appears you > > > may have your PV paid for with the years of $.186 valued energy? The > > > > My solar array paid for itself years ago, took a little over 5 years to > break even. > > > > > $800/year surcharge overshadow the value of your production in the > netmetering. > > > > Under the new rate schedule, I will have to pay approx $60 a month in > connection fees and taxes, > > plus they will no longer do 1:1 > stability of a grid connection is not > to be taken lightly. Will > > the > > > > Instead, I will have to pay retail for every kwh I pull from the grid > and they will pay me "export > > rate" for every kwh I push to the grid, this is on an instantaneous > basis, not trued up annually. > > The Export rate is higher than what I get now (~about 5 cents currently) > and the solar customer > > retail rate drops to 8 cents per kWh, but that still means I have to pay > 3 cents per kwh to use the > > grid as storage. > > > > By doing some smart energy management-- only charging the EVs, running > the dryer, etc. when I have > > surplus solar -- I could potentially keep the bill down to around $800 > annually. > > However, I figure it will cost me around $0.50 per day to bank power, > that plus the connection fees > > and taxes mean I will probably end up paying over $900 a year. > > > > I keep meaning to write a program to use my energy monitoring system to > calculate my actual costs, > > just haven't gotten around to it yet. > > > > >The stability of a grid connection is not to be taken lightly. > > > > I'm already building a second off-grid EV charging station, when I > disconnect from the grid I will > > buy a second inverter and set of batteries for my existing array, so I > will have two totally redundant off-grid power > > setups. > > > > I also have the Volt. The ability to use it as an emergency backup power > source was one of the > > reasons I choose it. While the Volt won't be able to support more than > approx 1kw, that's enough to > > support my critical loads (fridge, freezer, minisplit heat pump) plus a > few lights, etc. > > > > I'm also planning on buying one of the EV pickups that should be > available in the next couple > > years. That will give me a much more capable backup power system > > > > With 3-4 independant power systems, grid stability is a non-issue. Not > that the grid in my area is > > supper stable. We have had at least 4 minor power outages this summer > and we typically have a major > > outage (8+ hours) once every 5 years or so. > > ___ > > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210825/dbacf95c/attachment.html> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Wiring PP/CP on J1772
Congrats! Excellent detective work. My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key August 25, 2021 2:23 PM, "Bob Bath via EV" wrote: > To close this thread, the electrician did mash the two wires near the > resistor and microswitch. > Solution was to salvage the switch from the prior, melted paddle. > I’m back to level 2 capability. 😅 > Thanks for the help, all. > > Sincerely, > Bob Bath > > Note: any misspellings of the contents of this message are due to 56 y.o. > vision, hyperactive spell > check changing what I typed, or fat fingering— not cluelessness. > >> On Aug 25, 2021, at 2:17 PM, (-Phil-) via EV wrote: >> >> This is the circuit that should be connected between ground, and the Prox >> (PP) pin on the handle: >> [image: evse-prox.png] >> >>> On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 10:48 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV >>> wrote: >>> >>> The discrete components in the EVSE plug should just be a couple resistors. >>> Most of the diagrams I've seen indicate that with the plug disconnected >>> from the car, measuring from ground to the Proximity Pilot pin should show >>> around 450-500 ohms when the switch is open and around 150 ohms when it's >>> closed. >>> >>> Measuring the voltage on the pin when it's connected to the car will be >>> difficult to impossible depending on how the cord is set up (many don't >>> have a wire connected to the Proximity Pilot pin). >>> >>> My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key >>> >>> August 24, 2021 8:13 PM, "Bob Bath via EV" wrote: >> >> Hey, >> It seems the electrician I hired to replace my melted J1772 plug ran the >>> wiring _along_ the >> >> microswitch instead of underneath it. >> Upon testing, the new plug did not work. I’m hoping he didn’t mash the >>> crap out of the wires and >> >> what appears to be a capacitor or some other discrete component. >> Anyone have some ohmmeter readings I should be getting when the switch >>> is open vs closed? >> >> Guessing 0 ohms when open. 😅 >> The plug now does nothing, FYI. Lights on the Aerovironment charger do >>> nothing. No delay of about >> >> 1.5 sec followed by what sounds like a relay closing. >> >> Sincerely, >> Bob Bath >> >> Note: any misspellings of the contents of this message are due to 56 >>> y.o. vision, hyperactive spell >> >> check changing what I typed, or fat fingering— not cluelessness. >> >> ___ >> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org >> No other addresses in TO and CC fields >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive >> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >>> ___ >>> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org >>> No other addresses in TO and CC fields >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >>> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive >>> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >> >> -- next part -- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210825/61f042f2/attachment.html> >> -- next part -- >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> Name: evse-prox.png >> Type: image/png >> Size: 41064 bytes >> Desc: not available >> URL: >> <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210825/61f042f2/attachment.png> >> ___ >> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org >> No other addresses in TO and CC fields >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive >> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Cost of PV EV charging
> While the Volt won't be able to support more than approx 1kw, > that's enough to support my critical loads (fridge, freezer, . > minisplit heat pump) plus a few lights, etc. Turns out the DC/DC converter in the VOlt is over 200 amps at 12 volts so it can support almost 2 kW. Compared to the typical 100 amps or so from most hybrids. Though the Volt also draws more overhead, II think 500W. Bob On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 4:53 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV wrote: > >> A couple years after that my 'grandfathered' status runs out and I'll be > >> switched to their new > >> 'solar customer' rates, at that point it will cost me over $800 a year > >> just for the privilege of > >> being connected to the grid. iI figure it will be cheaper to buy some used > >> EV batteries and > >> disconnect, which is what I plan to do. > > > > Of course I do not fully understand your situation. But it appears you > > may have your PV paid for with the years of $.186 valued energy? The > > My solar array paid for itself years ago, took a little over 5 years to break > even. > > > $800/year surcharge overshadow the value of your production in the > > netmetering. > > Under the new rate schedule, I will have to pay approx $60 a month in > connection fees and taxes, > plus they will no longer do 1:1 > stability of a grid connection is not to be > taken lightly. Will > the > > Instead, I will have to pay retail for every kwh I pull from the grid and > they will pay me "export > rate" for every kwh I push to the grid, this is on an instantaneous basis, > not trued up annually. > The Export rate is higher than what I get now (~about 5 cents currently) and > the solar customer > retail rate drops to 8 cents per kWh, but that still means I have to pay 3 > cents per kwh to use the > grid as storage. > > By doing some smart energy management-- only charging the EVs, running the > dryer, etc. when I have > surplus solar -- I could potentially keep the bill down to around $800 > annually. > However, I figure it will cost me around $0.50 per day to bank power, that > plus the connection fees > and taxes mean I will probably end up paying over $900 a year. > > I keep meaning to write a program to use my energy monitoring system to > calculate my actual costs, > just haven't gotten around to it yet. > > >The stability of a grid connection is not to be taken lightly. > > I'm already building a second off-grid EV charging station, when I disconnect > from the grid I will > buy a second inverter and set of batteries for my existing array, so I will > have two totally redundant off-grid power > setups. > > I also have the Volt. The ability to use it as an emergency backup power > source was one of the > reasons I choose it. While the Volt won't be able to support more than approx > 1kw, that's enough to > support my critical loads (fridge, freezer, minisplit heat pump) plus a few > lights, etc. > > I'm also planning on buying one of the EV pickups that should be available in > the next couple > years. That will give me a much more capable backup power system > > With 3-4 independant power systems, grid stability is a non-issue. Not that > the grid in my area is > supper stable. We have had at least 4 minor power outages this summer and we > typically have a major > outage (8+ hours) once every 5 years or so. > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Wiring PP/CP on J1772
To close this thread, the electrician did mash the two wires near the resistor and microswitch. Solution was to salvage the switch from the prior, melted paddle. I’m back to level 2 capability. 😅 Thanks for the help, all. Sincerely, Bob Bath Note: any misspellings of the contents of this message are due to 56 y.o. vision, hyperactive spell check changing what I typed, or fat fingering— not cluelessness. > On Aug 25, 2021, at 2:17 PM, (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > > This is the circuit that should be connected between ground, and the Prox > (PP) pin on the handle: > [image: evse-prox.png] > >> On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 10:48 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV >> wrote: >> >> The discrete components in the EVSE plug should just be a couple resistors. >> Most of the diagrams I've seen indicate that with the plug disconnected >> from the car, measuring from ground to the Proximity Pilot pin should show >> around 450-500 ohms when the switch is open and around 150 ohms when it's >> closed. >> >> Measuring the voltage on the pin when it's connected to the car will be >> difficult to impossible depending on how the cord is set up (many don't >> have a wire connected to the Proximity Pilot pin). >> >> My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key >> >> August 24, 2021 8:13 PM, "Bob Bath via EV" wrote: >> >>> Hey, >>> It seems the electrician I hired to replace my melted J1772 plug ran the >> wiring _along_ the >>> microswitch instead of underneath it. >>> Upon testing, the new plug did not work. I’m hoping he didn’t mash the >> crap out of the wires and >>> what appears to be a capacitor or some other discrete component. >>> Anyone have some ohmmeter readings I should be getting when the switch >> is open vs closed? >>> Guessing 0 ohms when open. 😅 >>> The plug now does nothing, FYI. Lights on the Aerovironment charger do >> nothing. No delay of about >>> 1.5 sec followed by what sounds like a relay closing. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> Bob Bath >>> >>> Note: any misspellings of the contents of this message are due to 56 >> y.o. vision, hyperactive spell >>> check changing what I typed, or fat fingering— not cluelessness. >>> >>>> >>> >>> ___ >>> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org >>> No other addresses in TO and CC fields >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >>> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive >>> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >> ___ >> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org >> No other addresses in TO and CC fields >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ >> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >> > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210825/61f042f2/attachment.html> > -- next part -- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: evse-prox.png > Type: image/png > Size: 41064 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: > <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210825/61f042f2/attachment.png> > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Wiring PP/CP on J1772
This is the circuit that should be connected between ground, and the Prox (PP) pin on the handle: [image: evse-prox.png] On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 10:48 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV wrote: > The discrete components in the EVSE plug should just be a couple resistors. > Most of the diagrams I've seen indicate that with the plug disconnected > from the car, measuring from ground to the Proximity Pilot pin should show > around 450-500 ohms when the switch is open and around 150 ohms when it's > closed. > > Measuring the voltage on the pin when it's connected to the car will be > difficult to impossible depending on how the cord is set up (many don't > have a wire connected to the Proximity Pilot pin). > > My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key > > August 24, 2021 8:13 PM, "Bob Bath via EV" wrote: > > > Hey, > > It seems the electrician I hired to replace my melted J1772 plug ran the > wiring _along_ the > > microswitch instead of underneath it. > > Upon testing, the new plug did not work. I’m hoping he didn’t mash the > crap out of the wires and > > what appears to be a capacitor or some other discrete component. > > Anyone have some ohmmeter readings I should be getting when the switch > is open vs closed? > > Guessing 0 ohms when open. 😅 > > The plug now does nothing, FYI. Lights on the Aerovironment charger do > nothing. No delay of about > > 1.5 sec followed by what sounds like a relay closing. > > > > Sincerely, > > Bob Bath > > > > Note: any misspellings of the contents of this message are due to 56 > y.o. vision, hyperactive spell > > check changing what I typed, or fat fingering— not cluelessness. > > > >> > > > > ___ > > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive > > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210825/61f042f2/attachment.html> -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: evse-prox.png Type: image/png Size: 41064 bytes Desc: not available URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210825/61f042f2/attachment.png> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Cost of PV EV charging
>> A couple years after that my 'grandfathered' status runs out and I'll be >> switched to their new >> 'solar customer' rates, at that point it will cost me over $800 a year just >> for the privilege of >> being connected to the grid. iI figure it will be cheaper to buy some used >> EV batteries and >> disconnect, which is what I plan to do. > > Of course I do not fully understand your situation. But it appears you > may have your PV paid for with the years of $.186 valued energy? The My solar array paid for itself years ago, took a little over 5 years to break even. > $800/year surcharge overshadow the value of your production in the > netmetering. Under the new rate schedule, I will have to pay approx $60 a month in connection fees and taxes, plus they will no longer do 1:1 > stability of a grid connection is not to be taken lightly. Will the Instead, I will have to pay retail for every kwh I pull from the grid and they will pay me "export rate" for every kwh I push to the grid, this is on an instantaneous basis, not trued up annually. The Export rate is higher than what I get now (~about 5 cents currently) and the solar customer retail rate drops to 8 cents per kWh, but that still means I have to pay 3 cents per kwh to use the grid as storage. By doing some smart energy management-- only charging the EVs, running the dryer, etc. when I have surplus solar -- I could potentially keep the bill down to around $800 annually. However, I figure it will cost me around $0.50 per day to bank power, that plus the connection fees and taxes mean I will probably end up paying over $900 a year. I keep meaning to write a program to use my energy monitoring system to calculate my actual costs, just haven't gotten around to it yet. >The stability of a grid connection is not to be taken lightly. I'm already building a second off-grid EV charging station, when I disconnect from the grid I will buy a second inverter and set of batteries for my existing array, so I will have two totally redundant off-grid power setups. I also have the Volt. The ability to use it as an emergency backup power source was one of the reasons I choose it. While the Volt won't be able to support more than approx 1kw, that's enough to support my critical loads (fridge, freezer, minisplit heat pump) plus a few lights, etc. I'm also planning on buying one of the EV pickups that should be available in the next couple years. That will give me a much more capable backup power system With 3-4 independant power systems, grid stability is a non-issue. Not that the grid in my area is supper stable. We have had at least 4 minor power outages this summer and we typically have a major outage (8+ hours) once every 5 years or so. ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Cost of PV EV charging
I doubt you'll be able to buy the recalled bolt batteries. Too much liability to the sellers if one of them causes a fire. Jay On 8/25/21 2:19 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: With the recall of over 100,000 BOLT batteries to be replaced, There will be a HUGE source. But I assume that they will all be bulk sold to utilities who (hopefully) will apply them to grid-leveling in support of renewables! Bob On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 1:30 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV wrote: OOps, forgot. My home solar makes the EV charging free... (Well, no, with Grid tie it costs me 14 cents per kWh because that is what each kW is worth that I push back into the grid so using it to charge an EV is 14cents/kWh lost). Your utility seems to be giving you a GREAT deal. Though it makes your charging appear more expensive than with a lesser deal. I buy at $.10/kwh and sell at $.06/kwh which makes my charging $.06. OTOH, my utility is willing to buy (pay cash) for as much as I can manage to produce. Even at only $.06, I think my payback period is in the range of 6-8 years. You both get great deals. My electric coop only pays their "avoided costs" for any surplus electricity (trued up annually), currently that is less than 3 cents per kwh (2.6 the last time I checked). OTOH I'm still collecting on the PBI we agreed to when I first connected. That pays 18.6 cents per kWh produced, regardless of whether I use it or push it to the grid. However, that will run out in less than 2 years. A couple years after that my 'grandfathered' status runs out and I'll be switched to their new 'solar customer' rates, at that point it will cost me over $800 a year just for the privilege of being connected to the grid. iI figure it will be cheaper to buy some used EV batteries and disconnect, which is what I plan to do. ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen vs Battery Power
On 8/25/21 4:06 PM, Alan Brinkman via EV wrote: Hello EVDL, The draw of Hydrogen is that using it produces H2O, water. What a great exhaust product. But the energy to separate Hydrogen out of H2O to produce it is too great. It is better to use that energy to charge batteries and drive an EV. You are (mostly) preaching to the choir. ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Fast Charging Rates on the Least coast
On 8/25/21 3:57 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote: Do they price differently in different markets? Or does this have to do with price of gasoline? I think it is not tied to either local electric rates or gasoline/diesel prices. I believe the Tesla price is a nation wide target. In some jurisdictions it is prohibited to charge for unit energy; that's why some areas use connection time. Tesla has pledged to not attempt to make SuperCharging a profit center. And they seem to be honoring that pledge. 3X local electricity rate is VERY modest considering the value of the fast charging hardware. By design, that $.28/kwh looks generally cheap compared to gasoline even though it is three times the charge at home cost. Charge at home is $.01-$.03/mile. SuperCharging, more like $.10/mile. I believe ICE cars pay more like $.15-$.25/mile for fuel and without a charge at home option. I haven't paid for SuperCharging in years but I've heard that Texas now allows unit energy sales. Texas SuperCharging used to be billed by connection time period. I am surprised by the cost of not SuperCharge fast charging. Likely MORE than the cost of gasoline. ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen vs Battery Power
Hello EVDL, The draw of Hydrogen is that using it produces H2O, water. What a great exhaust product. But the energy to separate Hydrogen out of H2O to produce it is too great. It is better to use that energy to charge batteries and drive an EV. If you want to spend money on researching how to produce Hydrogen using much less energy, that is a good idea. A catalyst or unique process would be good. Just switching from petroleum fuels to Hydrogen at the current time is not a great benefit. EV's are the tool. Make it a great day! Alan On Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 10:48 AM Willie via EV wrote: > > On 8/25/21 11:10 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: > >>> ...by Electrify America, they said that they charge 31¢/kWh. > > I have seen rates as low as 3 cents per kW > > for EV charging off-peak for those that sign up for a TOU plan > > (includes much higher peak rates) > > > > "Hydrogen Fool cell" is a reasonable moniker. > > > > Wont this thread ever die? > > ->I<- think it is time for it to die. > > Much discussion back and forth. Little logic. Little promise for the > future. Not a single example of FCEV advantage over BEV. I say at risk > of appearing to gang up on Mark. Even though I have resisted giving > that appearance. > > > OOps, forgot. My home solar makes the EV charging free... > > (Well, no, with Grid tie it costs me 14 cents per kWh > > because that is what each kW is worth that I push back > > into the grid so using it to charge an EV is 14cents/kWh lost). > > Your utility seems to be giving you a GREAT deal. Though it makes your > charging appear more expensive than with a lesser deal. I buy at > $.10/kwh and sell at $.06/kwh which makes my charging $.06. OTOH, my > utility is willing to buy (pay cash) for as much as I can manage to > produce. Even at only $.06, I think my payback period is in the range > of 6-8 years. > > > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210825/1fb485a3/attachment.html> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Fast Charging Rates on the Least coast
Do they price differently in different markets? Or does this have to do with price of gasoline? - Mark Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > On Aug 25, 2021, at 12:30 PM, Mark Hanson via EV wrote: > > Hi folks > I’m charging along the least coast with the Tesla 28c per kWh and the Bolt > with CCS electrify America at 42c per kWh. Not sure why the CCS level 3 is > so much higher, still much less than hydrogen per mile. > Best regards > Mark > > Sent from my iPhone > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
[EVDL] Fast Charging Rates on the Least coast
Hi folks I’m charging along the least coast with the Tesla 28c per kWh and the Bolt with CCS electrify America at 42c per kWh. Not sure why the CCS level 3 is so much higher, still much less than hydrogen per mile. Best regards Mark Sent from my iPhone ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Cost of PV EV charging
On 8/25/21 1:30 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV wrote: You both get great deals. My electric coop only pays their "avoided costs" for any surplus electricity (trued up annually), currently that is less than 3 cents per kwh (2.6 the last time I checked). OTOH I'm still collecting on the PBI we agreed to when I first connected. That pays 18.6 cents per kWh produced, regardless of whether I use it or push it to the grid. However, that will run out in less than 2 years. A couple years after that my 'grandfathered' status runs out and I'll be switched to their new 'solar customer' rates, at that point it will cost me over $800 a year just for the privilege of being connected to the grid. iI figure it will be cheaper to buy some used EV batteries and disconnect, which is what I plan to do. Of course I do not fully understand your situation. But it appears you may have your PV paid for with the years of $.186 valued energy? The stability of a grid connection is not to be taken lightly. Will the $800/year surcharge overshadow the value of your production in the future? Can you avoid that surcharge by just disconnecting your PV from the grid? Though you are unlikely to be able to effectively use the PV energy if it is not grid tie, you can find other uses for it. Charging cars. Keeping grid down back up batteries charged. Heating water during the day for night time use. Cooling down the house while the sun shines. Etc. When I bought this place, I was not clever enough to shop for a good electric utility. I lucked out. Were I to move now, I would certainly take a very close look at the prospective utilities. Our coop has no generation of their own and they pay transmission fees on all out of area power that they buy for sale to members. That means they value the avoided transmission cost of customer generated power. Much of our grid power is now coming from very cheap west Texas wind and, increasingly, west Texas PV. That is transmitted as far as about 300 miles. Maybe 400. AND the coop seems to be legitimately member owned and operated for the benefit of members. Member/utility relations are not at all adversarial. ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Cost of PV EV charging
With the recall of over 100,000 BOLT batteries to be replaced, There will be a HUGE source. But I assume that they will all be bulk sold to utilities who (hopefully) will apply them to grid-leveling in support of renewables! Bob On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 1:30 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV wrote: > > >> OOps, forgot. My home solar makes the EV charging free... > >> (Well, no, with Grid tie it costs me 14 cents per kWh > >> because that is what each kW is worth that I push back > >> into the grid so using it to charge an EV is 14cents/kWh lost). > > > > Your utility seems to be giving you a GREAT deal. Though it makes your > > charging appear more expensive than with a lesser deal. I buy at > > $.10/kwh and sell at $.06/kwh which makes my charging $.06. OTOH, my > > utility is willing to buy (pay cash) for as much as I can manage to > > produce. Even at only $.06, I think my payback period is in the range > > of 6-8 years. > > You both get great deals. My electric coop only pays their "avoided costs" > for any surplus electricity (trued up annually), currently that is less than > 3 cents per kwh (2.6 the last time I checked). > OTOH I'm still collecting on the PBI we agreed to when I first connected. > That pays 18.6 cents per kWh produced, regardless of whether I use it or push > it to the grid. However, that will run out in less than 2 years. > > A couple years after that my 'grandfathered' status runs out and I'll be > switched to their new 'solar customer' rates, at that point it will cost me > over $800 a year just for the privilege of being connected to the grid. iI > figure it will be cheaper to buy some used EV batteries and disconnect, which > is what I plan to do. > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Cost of PV EV charging
>> OOps, forgot. My home solar makes the EV charging free... >> (Well, no, with Grid tie it costs me 14 cents per kWh >> because that is what each kW is worth that I push back >> into the grid so using it to charge an EV is 14cents/kWh lost). > > Your utility seems to be giving you a GREAT deal. Though it makes your > charging appear more expensive than with a lesser deal. I buy at > $.10/kwh and sell at $.06/kwh which makes my charging $.06. OTOH, my > utility is willing to buy (pay cash) for as much as I can manage to > produce. Even at only $.06, I think my payback period is in the range > of 6-8 years. You both get great deals. My electric coop only pays their "avoided costs" for any surplus electricity (trued up annually), currently that is less than 3 cents per kwh (2.6 the last time I checked). OTOH I'm still collecting on the PBI we agreed to when I first connected. That pays 18.6 cents per kWh produced, regardless of whether I use it or push it to the grid. However, that will run out in less than 2 years. A couple years after that my 'grandfathered' status runs out and I'll be switched to their new 'solar customer' rates, at that point it will cost me over $800 a year just for the privilege of being connected to the grid. iI figure it will be cheaper to buy some used EV batteries and disconnect, which is what I plan to do. ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Charging EVs was Re: hydrogen isn't green, after all
On 8/25/21 12:42 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV wrote: All Teslas sold before 2017 come with lifetime free supercharging, model S and X come with lifetime free supercharging. , model 3 and Y come with 1 year of free supercharging. Destination charger (level 2) are almost always free. VW comes with 3 years of free charging, the Ionic comes with 1 year of free charging, I believe Nissan used to offer free charging. This is in addition to the thousands of EV charging stations that are free to everyone. A far as I can tell, every state in the Union has at least 50 free charging stations, most have several hundred. My 2013 S has transferable lifetime SuperCharging. Meaning subsequent buyers also have SuperCharging. My 2017 S had not transferable lifetime SuperCharging. Meaning the SuperCharging disappears for subsequent owners. I briefly owned a very early Model3 did not have free SuperCharging. I jumped on a very rare deal to get not transferable SuperCharging on my 2018 Model3. I know of only a few others that have free lifetime SuperCharging on a Model3. I very much want a ModelY and a CT but have no hope of getting free SuperCharging. I don't suppose Phil (or anyone) knows anything about having a newer Tesla take on the identity of an older one with SuperCharging? ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Cost of PV EV charging
> produce. Even at only $.06, I think my payback period is in the range > of 6-8 years. Sure beats the 100 year payback offered by savings banks at 1% interest. I never liked the "payback" term for solar. I say it is from day one when one stopped consuming fossil fueled utility power. Bob ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
[EVDL] Cost of PV EV charging
On 8/25/21 11:10 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: ...by Electrify America, they said that they charge 31¢/kWh. I have seen rates as low as 3 cents per kW for EV charging off-peak for those that sign up for a TOU plan (includes much higher peak rates) "Hydrogen Fool cell" is a reasonable moniker. Wont this thread ever die? ->I<- think it is time for it to die. Much discussion back and forth. Little logic. Little promise for the future. Not a single example of FCEV advantage over BEV. I say at risk of appearing to gang up on Mark. Even though I have resisted giving that appearance. OOps, forgot. My home solar makes the EV charging free... (Well, no, with Grid tie it costs me 14 cents per kWh because that is what each kW is worth that I push back into the grid so using it to charge an EV is 14cents/kWh lost). Your utility seems to be giving you a GREAT deal. Though it makes your charging appear more expensive than with a lesser deal. I buy at $.10/kwh and sell at $.06/kwh which makes my charging $.06. OTOH, my utility is willing to buy (pay cash) for as much as I can manage to produce. Even at only $.06, I think my payback period is in the range of 6-8 years. ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
[EVDL] Charging EVs was Re: hydrogen isn't green, after all
> You are definitely in great shape for at-home charging. Hopefully that is > usually sufficient for > you. We bought the Chevy Volt in 2017 and the Chevy Bolt in 2019. I have never paid to charge the Volt, mostly it gets charged at home but occasionally it gets charged using one of the thousands of free Level-2 charging stations. We have driven the Volt up to Oregon a couple times to visit my mom (~1500 miles each way) and I have driven out to San Jose a couple times (~900 miles). My wife an I are both in our late fifties so we no longer like to do marathon driving trips, so we typically only drive 8-10 hours a day one long trips. Our criteria for selecting hotels is that they offer free EV charging, which is actually becomming pretty common these days. We almost always stop in Blyth for an hour or two to take a break and use the free charger there, and usually stop somewhere between LA and Sacremento to take a break and use one of the free chargers there. On the trips to my mom's only about 200 miles (each way) is done on electric, the rest of the trip uses about 30 gallons of gas (each way) On the trips to San Jose each way is about 120-130 miles on electric and about 19 gallons of gas. I haven't tried these trips with the Bolt yet because the DC fast chargers needed to get from Phoenix to California weren't installed until last year. However, I have driven the bolt to Phoenix and back(190 miles each way) once and numerous times to Tucson and back (90 miles each way) In the 2 years I've owned the Bolt I have only twice paid to charge it. Once just to see how it worked to use a DC fast charger, and a second time because I drove up to the Tucson Airport expecting to park it there and charge for free using level-1 charging (plenty fast enough for a 2-3 day trip) only to have the trip rescheduled at the last minute and I didn't have enough charge to get back home, so I spent ~10 minutes and $5 using the DC fast charger near the airport rather than spending a couple hours using a free level-2 charger. > On the hydrogen side, the $16.50 price was correct in 2019. The article I got that number from was pusblish in late 2020, can you offer a link to anything proving your claim? >The price is NOT subsidized by California. The cost of fuel normally includes the cost to recoup the cost of building the station, since California paid for 80% of the Station they ARE subsidizing the cost of the fuel. > With the newer stations and greater competition they are starting to come > down and will > come down. Again, can you offer any proof of that? > But the consumer doesn’t pay that, with one exception. They pay nothing for > three years. All Teslas sold before 2017 come with lifetime free supercharging, model S and X come with lifetime free supercharging. , model 3 and Y come with 1 year of free supercharging. Destination charger (level 2) are almost always free. VW comes with 3 years of free charging, the Ionic comes with 1 year of free charging, I believe Nissan used to offer free charging. This is in addition to the thousands of EV charging stations that are free to everyone. A far as I can tell, every state in the Union has at least 50 free charging stations, most have several hundred. > The OEMs pick that up, and offer even more perks to the “pioneers” (things > like free car rentals). > Most lease, but if you bought, like I did for my first one, it becomes > expensive after three years. > > > The cost of stations *is* subsidized by California (as is EVSE), but the > stations are not costing > $2 million. I think the earlier ones did, but costs are coming down. My guess > is the last group of > funded stations were $1.25M per station with four times the fueling bays, and > 5-10 times the fuel > capacity of the previous ones. That’s an educated guess, but the recent > numbers are out there. > > The amount of subsidy, in %, has also dropped significantly. I think it’s > only 40%, but don’t trust > my memory. Again, the $2 million figure, with $1.6 million subsidy was from an artical publishdd last year, can you offer any proof of your claims? > > Your use of cost of electricity per station (which seems *very* cheap) isn’t > the right number to > use, as most hydrogen is not produced at the station. If you are assuming the > electricity rates > that you may know at charging stations (a guess on my part), I think that > would be wrong anyway, > because I think that EVSE get special rates that electrolyzers don’t get. It doesn't matter where it's produced, unless you are making it from fossile fuels, etc. the ammount of electricty required is the same. The 7-9 cents is a widely published figure for California's "green" hydrogen. The vast majority of public EVSEs pay 'bussiness' rates for electricity which averages over 10 cents per kWh. One more time, since you keep ignoring this, assuming "green" hydrogen, it takes 3-4 times as much electricity
[EVDL] Hydrogen is a silly idea in every way and hydrogen fans are in denial.
Mark, . You still have not addressed all questions from previous submittals on this topic of hydrogen. I have shared my financials for the year for energy use, others have given very accurate information which points to the increased costs using hydrogen because of the inefficiencies. The numbers don't lie. Why back a loser? For most people it is economics that determines use. This is why the battery electric switch will happen more quickly than predicted. I am still interested in your yearly energy cost. Mine was $450. Lawrence Rhodes -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210825/117f557d/attachment.html> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
>> ...by Electrify America, they said that they charge 31¢/kWh. I have seen rates as low as 3 cents per kW for EV charging off-peak for those that sign up for a TOU plan (includes much higher peak rates) "Hydrogen Fool cell" is a reasonable moniker. Wont this thread ever die? OOps, forgot. My home solar makes the EV charging free... (Well, no, with Grid tie it costs me 14 cents per kWh because that is what each kW is worth that I push back into the grid so using it to charge an EV is 14cents/kWh lost). Hummh... bob On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 1:29 AM Peter VanDerWal via EV wrote: > > > Also, since we are talking about the consumers perspective, I think you are > > making common mistake > > in equating cost with price. > > > > Going back to your comment about cost of charging, that has to be based on > > price, not cost. At a > > Yes I know price and cost are two different things, however, the average > consumer considers them to be the same thing. > > While there are thousands of free charging stations (especially in > California), including DC fast charge stations, and while there are several > EV producers that offer free charging for several years with new EVs, we will > ignore those. > > For the charging stations that require payment, I have seen everywhere from > ~$0.20 to $0.55 per kwh, $0.31 seems to be an average price. I suspect > competition will start driving the price down in some areas. > > Of course the majority of EV owners charge at home, where electricity is much > cheaper. My solar has already paid for itself twice over, so my price/cost > is essentially zero. I haven't paid an electric bill in 11 years. > > According to: https://cafcp.org/content/cost-refill > The average price of hydrogen in California is $16.51 per kg, which can power > an FCEV "up to" 75 miles. This price is heavily subsidized by California. > In addition the state pays on average $1.6 million of the $2 million, for > each station. > > Using the EPA rated range on my Chevy Bolt (the 'up to' range is much > higher), and using the $0.31 price per kwh, the price to go 75 miles is ~ > $6.80. > For the average EV driver in California charging at home, and paying the > average price for electricity, it would price would be about $4.00. > Then again, many places in California offer special rates for charging EVs > where it's even cheaper. > > So, the price for charging an EV ranges from infinitely cheaper to, perhaps > half the cost of Hydrogen. > > > And you haven’t said anything about cost of renewables, and isn’t that what > > we want? > > Since it requires 3x-4x as much electricity to power the FCEV, which means it > requires 3x-4x as much renewable infrastructure to fuel a FCEV. Pretty sure > I have mentioned this several times already. > > > > > I recently saw a chart of cost of renewables by geographic region in the > > U.S. that showed the cost > > of renewables to be available for as low as 2 or 3¢/kWh. > > > > Plug Power (disclosure: a client of mine) has said publicly that they > > believe that they can produce > > hydrogen within a few years that will be competitive with diesel, given > > access to 3¢ solar. They > > are currently building a number of production plants. > Most hydrogen fuel stations only pay 5-7¢ per kWh, so that won't make a > significant drop it the cost. > The cost of fuel is more than just the price of the electricity, under normal > circumstances it would include recouping the cost of building the station, > labor costs, repair costs, etc. > Currently California is paying 80% of the cost of installing the Hydrogen > fuel station, with local cities, etc. pay most of the remaining. > I don't believe those costs are being reflected in the sales price of the > Hydrogen. Since it's not sustainable for the state to continue to subsidize > the fuel stations much longer, I would expect to see and increase in the > price of Hydrogen. > At this point most EV charging stations are being paid for by private > companies that expect to make a profit, which is why it costs so much to > charge. > > The cost of the fuel centers is 10-20 times as much for Hydrogen, and > additionally they would require 3-4 times as much renewable infrastructure. > There is no way Hydrogen will EVER compete with the price of selling > electricity directly without subsidies. > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
On 25 Aug 2021 at 6:54, jim--- via EV wrote: > within a mile or two of my house there are at least a half dozen > publicly available charging stations. That's what's great about EVs. Almost every commercial building has enough electrical capacity to install at least a level 2 (~10kW) charging point. The cost is about $6,000 per point. No need to buy and bury tanks, just trench for the power cable. No EVSE? It's slow, but you can charge anywhere you can find a receptacle (with permission). That's just about everywhere. Hydrogen willl NEVER be cheap to install or that readily available - nor will gasoline or Diesel fuel, for that matter. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -- Voltaire = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
I don’t know. - Mark Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > On Aug 25, 2021, at 2:39 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote: > > Where and who is building them ? > >> On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 3:30 AM Mark Abramowitz via EV >> wrote: >> >> One other update on subsidies for stations - some new stations are being >> built *without* state funding. >> >> - Mark >> >> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone >> >>> On Aug 24, 2021, at 11:11 PM, Mark Abramowitz >> wrote: >>> >>> Let me give you sources for the exact numbers for up to date data, >> rather than rely on my memory. >>> >>> On station cost and the % amount that the subsidy has dropped, you can >> either go to the CEC website, and look at the latest funding awards, or you >> can look at a summary put together by the California Fuel Cell Partnership. >> CaFCP does regular station update webinars, and the latest was several >> weeks ago. You can likely download the slide deck from their website (cited >> by you earlier) for some good summaries, or listen to the webinar for more >> color. >>> >>> >>> - Mark >>> >>> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone >>> On Aug 24, 2021, at 11:02 PM, Mark Abramowitz >> wrote: You are definitely in great shape for at-home charging. Hopefully that >> is usually sufficient for you. On the hydrogen side, the $16.50 price was correct in 2019. The price >> is NOT subsidized by California. With the newer stations and greater >> competition they are starting to come down and will come down. But the ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
- See my note about the capacity of fueling stations being built today. Your number is no longer correct. - the needed infrastructure ratio makes me neither happy nor unhappy. They just are what they are, but you need to adjust comparisons based on that, as you have done (I’m not commenting on whether your methodology is correct or incorrect. I don’t have an opinion on that). Your numbers just need to use current numbers. The infrastructure for FCEV does make me unhappy, and again, in the real world it can be fine, depending on whether it meets your needs. For me and my family, most it has. Elsewhere, it doesn’t, as you point out. In most of those places, you won’t be able to get a vehicle. Irrelevant to the consumer, because it can’t help them, there is actually infrastructure out there that could allow a cross country trip. It you had access to the hydrogen fueling infrastructure in distribution warehouses across the country, you could make it across the country. You can’t, but it just shows that it can be built. Just like Tesla did it. Or the country in the 50’s when the interstate system was built. - Mark Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > On Aug 25, 2021, at 2:28 AM, Peter VanDerWal via EV wrote: > > >> >> >> In regard to your question “ How is comparing the number of stations that >> are ACTUALLY open not an >> "apples to apples" comparison?” - If you are trying to compare how many >> vehicles you have the >> capacity to serve, there is not a one to one match. A hydrogen fueling >> “spot” can refuel many more >> cars, provide fuel for many more miles…however you want to measure it. Put >> another way, if you were >> to built the “right” number of charging stations for a million BEVs, and >> then assumed that the >> amount for BEVs would be the same number as for a million FCEVs, you would >> be dead wrong. Hope that >> my point was clearer. > > The hydrogen fuel stations they are installing in California can produce > about 180 kg of hydrogen a day, in the real world that is enough for > 10,000-11,000 miles. > While not all of the 40,000 EV charging stations can match that, there are > hundreds that can exceed that rate on a daily basis. Almost all of the DC > fast chargers they have been installing for the last year or two can exceed > that. > If it makes you happy then the infrastructure advantage is only 100:1 instead > of 1,000:1 > >> >> But my earlier point was that, as an individual consumer, if you have >> adequate H2 infrastructure > > Yes, but I was asking about in the real world, not pipe dreams. Right now, > outside of California, there is essentially zero infrastructure for FCEV and > that is not likely to change any time soon. > So, in the real world, consumers outside of california are not going to buy > FCEVs, and not a whole lot of them inside of california are buying into them > either. > > In the real world there is currently enough infrastructure to make a trip in > one of the recent model EVs from pretty much anywhere in the USA to pretty > much anywhere else. > There isn't currently enough hydrogen infrastructure to even reach all points > in California. I suppose you could drive from LA into Arizona a little bit > before you ran out of hydrogen, but then you'd have to hire someone to haul > the vehicle back to LA. > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
Mark Abramowitz said in small part: > Granted, because of the limited infrastructure currently, those consumers in > the US for > whom it would work fine is very small. In California, much less so. Guess again. You keep talking about how much infrastructure there is in California - and the Los Angeles area in particular. I live and work in the Los Angeles basin and there is NOT useful infrastructure for me. The nearest station to my house is about 20 minutes in a direction that I almost never drive. On my normal drive to work, there is not a single station that is not AT LEAST 15 minutes out of my way (each way). And according to the LA Time article I posted last week, many of the ones that do exist, routinely are not operational. Not happening for me. By comparison, at work there are four publicly available charging spots and four more in the employee part of the parking structure. Of course I could (if I had an EVE) charge at home, and within a mile or two of my house there are at least a half dozen publicly available charging stations. 73 - Jim Walls - K6CCC j...@k6ccc.org ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
to' range is much > higher), and using the $0.31 price per kwh, the price to go 75 miles is ~ > $6.80. > >>> For the average EV driver in California charging at home, and paying > the average price for electricity, it would price would be about $4.00. > >>> Then again, many places in California offer special rates for charging > EVs where it's even cheaper. > >>> > >>> So, the price for charging an EV ranges from infinitely cheaper to, > perhaps half the cost of Hydrogen. > >>> > >>>> And you haven’t said anything about cost of renewables, and isn’t > that what we want? > >>> > >>> Since it requires 3x-4x as much electricity to power the FCEV, which > means it requires 3x-4x as much renewable infrastructure to fuel a FCEV. > Pretty sure I have mentioned this several times already. > >>> > >>>> > >>>> I recently saw a chart of cost of renewables by geographic region in > the U.S. that showed the cost > >>>> of renewables to be available for as low as 2 or 3¢/kWh. > >>>> > >>>> Plug Power (disclosure: a client of mine) has said publicly that they > believe that they can produce > >>>> hydrogen within a few years that will be competitive with diesel, > given access to 3¢ solar. They > >>>> are currently building a number of production plants. > >>> Most hydrogen fuel stations only pay 5-7¢ per kWh, so that won't make > a significant drop it the cost. > >>> The cost of fuel is more than just the price of the electricity, under > normal circumstances it would include recouping the cost of building the > station, labor costs, repair costs, etc. > >>> Currently California is paying 80% of the cost of installing the > Hydrogen fuel station, with local cities, etc. pay most of the remaining. > >>> I don't believe those costs are being reflected in the sales price of > the Hydrogen. Since it's not sustainable for the state to continue to > subsidize the fuel stations much longer, I would expect to see and increase > in the price of Hydrogen. > >>> At this point most EV charging stations are being paid for by private > companies that expect to make a profit, which is why it costs so much to > charge. > >>> > >>> The cost of the fuel centers is 10-20 times as much for Hydrogen, and > additionally they would require 3-4 times as much renewable > infrastructure. There is no way Hydrogen will EVER compete with the price > of selling electricity directly without subsidies. > >>> ___ > >>> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > >>> No other addresses in TO and CC fields > >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > >>> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > >>> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > >>> > >> > >> > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210825/2dea4764/attachment.html> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
> > In regard to your question “ How is comparing the number of stations that are > ACTUALLY open not an > "apples to apples" comparison?” - If you are trying to compare how many > vehicles you have the > capacity to serve, there is not a one to one match. A hydrogen fueling “spot” > can refuel many more > cars, provide fuel for many more miles…however you want to measure it. Put > another way, if you were > to built the “right” number of charging stations for a million BEVs, and then > assumed that the > amount for BEVs would be the same number as for a million FCEVs, you would be > dead wrong. Hope that > my point was clearer. The hydrogen fuel stations they are installing in California can produce about 180 kg of hydrogen a day, in the real world that is enough for 10,000-11,000 miles. While not all of the 40,000 EV charging stations can match that, there are hundreds that can exceed that rate on a daily basis. Almost all of the DC fast chargers they have been installing for the last year or two can exceed that. If it makes you happy then the infrastructure advantage is only 100:1 instead of 1,000:1 > > But my earlier point was that, as an individual consumer, if you have > adequate H2 infrastructure Yes, but I was asking about in the real world, not pipe dreams. Right now, outside of California, there is essentially zero infrastructure for FCEV and that is not likely to change any time soon. So, in the real world, consumers outside of california are not going to buy FCEVs, and not a whole lot of them inside of california are buying into them either. In the real world there is currently enough infrastructure to make a trip in one of the recent model EVs from pretty much anywhere in the USA to pretty much anywhere else. There isn't currently enough hydrogen infrastructure to even reach all points in California. I suppose you could drive from LA into Arizona a little bit before you ran out of hydrogen, but then you'd have to hire someone to haul the vehicle back to LA. ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
One other update on subsidies for stations - some new stations are being built *without* state funding. - Mark Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > On Aug 24, 2021, at 11:11 PM, Mark Abramowitz wrote: > > Let me give you sources for the exact numbers for up to date data, rather > than rely on my memory. > > On station cost and the % amount that the subsidy has dropped, you can either > go to the CEC website, and look at the latest funding awards, or you can look > at a summary put together by the California Fuel Cell Partnership. CaFCP does > regular station update webinars, and the latest was several weeks ago. You > can likely download the slide deck from their website (cited by you earlier) > for some good summaries, or listen to the webinar for more color. > > > - Mark > > Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > >> On Aug 24, 2021, at 11:02 PM, Mark Abramowitz wrote: >> >> You are definitely in great shape for at-home charging. Hopefully that is >> usually sufficient for you. >> >> On the hydrogen side, the $16.50 price was correct in 2019. The price is NOT >> subsidized by California. With the newer stations and greater competition >> they are starting to come down and will come down. But the consumer doesn’t >> pay that, with one exception. They pay nothing for three years. The OEMs >> pick that up, and offer even more perks to the “pioneers” (things like free >> car rentals). Most lease, but if you bought, like I did for my first one, it >> becomes expensive after three years. >> >> The cost of stations *is* subsidized by California (as is EVSE), but the >> stations are not costing $2 million. I think the earlier ones did, but costs >> are coming down. My guess is the last group of funded stations were $1.25M >> per station with four times the fueling bays, and 5-10 times the fuel >> capacity of the previous ones. That’s an educated guess, but the recent >> numbers are out there. >> >> The amount of subsidy, in %, has also dropped significantly. I think it’s >> only 40%, but don’t trust my memory. >> >> Your use of cost of electricity per station (which seems *very* cheap) isn’t >> the right number to use, as most hydrogen is not produced at the station. If >> you are assuming the electricity rates that you may know at charging >> stations (a guess on my part), I think that would be wrong anyway, because I >> think that EVSE get special rates that electrolyzers don’t get. >> >> - Mark >> >> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone >> On Aug 24, 2021, at 10:29 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV wrote: >>> >>> Also, since we are talking about the consumers perspective, I think you are making common mistake in equating cost with price. Going back to your comment about cost of charging, that has to be based on price, not cost. At a recent presentation by Electrify America, they said that they charge 31¢/kWh. >>> >>> Yes I know price and cost are two different things, however, the average >>> consumer considers them to be the same thing. >>> >>> While there are thousands of free charging stations (especially in >>> California), including DC fast charge stations, and while there are several >>> EV producers that offer free charging for several years with new EVs, we >>> will ignore those. >>> >>> For the charging stations that require payment, I have seen everywhere from >>> ~$0.20 to $0.55 per kwh, $0.31 seems to be an average price. I suspect >>> competition will start driving the price down in some areas. >>> >>> Of course the majority of EV owners charge at home, where electricity is >>> much cheaper. My solar has already paid for itself twice over, so my >>> price/cost is essentially zero. I haven't paid an electric bill in 11 >>> years. >>> >>> According to: https://cafcp.org/content/cost-refill >>> The average price of hydrogen in California is $16.51 per kg, which can >>> power an FCEV "up to" 75 miles. This price is heavily subsidized by >>> California. In addition the state pays on average $1.6 million of the $2 >>> million, for each station. >>> >>> Using the EPA rated range on my Chevy Bolt (the 'up to' range is much >>> higher), and using the $0.31 price per kwh, the price to go 75 miles is ~ >>> $6.80. >>> For the average EV driver in California charging at home, and paying the >>> average price for electricity, it would price would be about $4.00. >>> Then again, many places in California offer special rates for charging EVs >>> where it's even cheaper. >>> >>> So, the price for charging an EV ranges from infinitely cheaper to, perhaps >>> half the cost of Hydrogen. >>> And you haven’t said anything about cost of renewables, and isn’t that what we want? >>> >>> Since it requires 3x-4x as much electricity to power the FCEV, which means >>> it requires 3x-4x as much renewable infrastructure to fuel a FCEV. Pretty >>> sure I have mentioned this s
Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
Let me give you sources for the exact numbers for up to date data, rather than rely on my memory. On station cost and the % amount that the subsidy has dropped, you can either go to the CEC website, and look at the latest funding awards, or you can look at a summary put together by the California Fuel Cell Partnership. CaFCP does regular station update webinars, and the latest was several weeks ago. You can likely download the slide deck from their website (cited by you earlier) for some good summaries, or listen to the webinar for more color. - Mark Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > On Aug 24, 2021, at 11:02 PM, Mark Abramowitz wrote: > > You are definitely in great shape for at-home charging. Hopefully that is > usually sufficient for you. > > On the hydrogen side, the $16.50 price was correct in 2019. The price is NOT > subsidized by California. With the newer stations and greater competition > they are starting to come down and will come down. But the consumer doesn’t > pay that, with one exception. They pay nothing for three years. The OEMs pick > that up, and offer even more perks to the “pioneers” (things like free car > rentals). Most lease, but if you bought, like I did for my first one, it > becomes expensive after three years. > > The cost of stations *is* subsidized by California (as is EVSE), but the > stations are not costing $2 million. I think the earlier ones did, but costs > are coming down. My guess is the last group of funded stations were $1.25M > per station with four times the fueling bays, and 5-10 times the fuel > capacity of the previous ones. That’s an educated guess, but the recent > numbers are out there. > > The amount of subsidy, in %, has also dropped significantly. I think it’s > only 40%, but don’t trust my memory. > > Your use of cost of electricity per station (which seems *very* cheap) isn’t > the right number to use, as most hydrogen is not produced at the station. If > you are assuming the electricity rates that you may know at charging stations > (a guess on my part), I think that would be wrong anyway, because I think > that EVSE get special rates that electrolyzers don’t get. > > - Mark > > Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > >> On Aug 24, 2021, at 10:29 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV >> wrote: >> >> >>> >>> Also, since we are talking about the consumers perspective, I think you are >>> making common mistake >>> in equating cost with price. >>> >>> Going back to your comment about cost of charging, that has to be based on >>> price, not cost. At a >>> recent presentation by Electrify America, they said that they charge >>> 31¢/kWh. >> >> Yes I know price and cost are two different things, however, the average >> consumer considers them to be the same thing. >> >> While there are thousands of free charging stations (especially in >> California), including DC fast charge stations, and while there are several >> EV producers that offer free charging for several years with new EVs, we >> will ignore those. >> >> For the charging stations that require payment, I have seen everywhere from >> ~$0.20 to $0.55 per kwh, $0.31 seems to be an average price. I suspect >> competition will start driving the price down in some areas. >> >> Of course the majority of EV owners charge at home, where electricity is >> much cheaper. My solar has already paid for itself twice over, so my >> price/cost is essentially zero. I haven't paid an electric bill in 11 years. >> >> According to: https://cafcp.org/content/cost-refill >> The average price of hydrogen in California is $16.51 per kg, which can >> power an FCEV "up to" 75 miles. This price is heavily subsidized by >> California. In addition the state pays on average $1.6 million of the $2 >> million, for each station. >> >> Using the EPA rated range on my Chevy Bolt (the 'up to' range is much >> higher), and using the $0.31 price per kwh, the price to go 75 miles is ~ >> $6.80. >> For the average EV driver in California charging at home, and paying the >> average price for electricity, it would price would be about $4.00. >> Then again, many places in California offer special rates for charging EVs >> where it's even cheaper. >> >> So, the price for charging an EV ranges from infinitely cheaper to, perhaps >> half the cost of Hydrogen. >> >>> And you haven’t said anything about cost of renewables, and isn’t that what >>> we want? >> >> Since it requires 3x-4x as much electricity to power the FCEV, which means >> it requires 3x-4x as much renewable infrastructure to fuel a FCEV. Pretty >> sure I have mentioned this several times already. >> >>> >>> I recently saw a chart of cost of renewables by geographic region in the >>> U.S. that showed the cost >>> of renewables to be available for as low as 2 or 3¢/kWh. >>> >>> Plug Power (disclosure: a client of mine) has said publicly that they >>> believe that they can produce >>> hydrogen within a
Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
You are definitely in great shape for at-home charging. Hopefully that is usually sufficient for you. On the hydrogen side, the $16.50 price was correct in 2019. The price is NOT subsidized by California. With the newer stations and greater competition they are starting to come down and will come down. But the consumer doesn’t pay that, with one exception. They pay nothing for three years. The OEMs pick that up, and offer even more perks to the “pioneers” (things like free car rentals). Most lease, but if you bought, like I did for my first one, it becomes expensive after three years. The cost of stations *is* subsidized by California (as is EVSE), but the stations are not costing $2 million. I think the earlier ones did, but costs are coming down. My guess is the last group of funded stations were $1.25M per station with four times the fueling bays, and 5-10 times the fuel capacity of the previous ones. That’s an educated guess, but the recent numbers are out there. The amount of subsidy, in %, has also dropped significantly. I think it’s only 40%, but don’t trust my memory. Your use of cost of electricity per station (which seems *very* cheap) isn’t the right number to use, as most hydrogen is not produced at the station. If you are assuming the electricity rates that you may know at charging stations (a guess on my part), I think that would be wrong anyway, because I think that EVSE get special rates that electrolyzers don’t get. - Mark Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > On Aug 24, 2021, at 10:29 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV > wrote: > > >> >> Also, since we are talking about the consumers perspective, I think you are >> making common mistake >> in equating cost with price. >> >> Going back to your comment about cost of charging, that has to be based on >> price, not cost. At a >> recent presentation by Electrify America, they said that they charge >> 31¢/kWh. > > Yes I know price and cost are two different things, however, the average > consumer considers them to be the same thing. > > While there are thousands of free charging stations (especially in > California), including DC fast charge stations, and while there are several > EV producers that offer free charging for several years with new EVs, we will > ignore those. > > For the charging stations that require payment, I have seen everywhere from > ~$0.20 to $0.55 per kwh, $0.31 seems to be an average price. I suspect > competition will start driving the price down in some areas. > > Of course the majority of EV owners charge at home, where electricity is much > cheaper. My solar has already paid for itself twice over, so my price/cost > is essentially zero. I haven't paid an electric bill in 11 years. > > According to: https://cafcp.org/content/cost-refill > The average price of hydrogen in California is $16.51 per kg, which can power > an FCEV "up to" 75 miles. This price is heavily subsidized by California. > In addition the state pays on average $1.6 million of the $2 million, for > each station. > > Using the EPA rated range on my Chevy Bolt (the 'up to' range is much > higher), and using the $0.31 price per kwh, the price to go 75 miles is ~ > $6.80. > For the average EV driver in California charging at home, and paying the > average price for electricity, it would price would be about $4.00. > Then again, many places in California offer special rates for charging EVs > where it's even cheaper. > > So, the price for charging an EV ranges from infinitely cheaper to, perhaps > half the cost of Hydrogen. > >> And you haven’t said anything about cost of renewables, and isn’t that what >> we want? > > Since it requires 3x-4x as much electricity to power the FCEV, which means it > requires 3x-4x as much renewable infrastructure to fuel a FCEV. Pretty sure > I have mentioned this several times already. > >> >> I recently saw a chart of cost of renewables by geographic region in the >> U.S. that showed the cost >> of renewables to be available for as low as 2 or 3¢/kWh. >> >> Plug Power (disclosure: a client of mine) has said publicly that they >> believe that they can produce >> hydrogen within a few years that will be competitive with diesel, given >> access to 3¢ solar. They >> are currently building a number of production plants. > Most hydrogen fuel stations only pay 5-7¢ per kWh, so that won't make a > significant drop it the cost. > The cost of fuel is more than just the price of the electricity, under normal > circumstances it would include recouping the cost of building the station, > labor costs, repair costs, etc. > Currently California is paying 80% of the cost of installing the Hydrogen > fuel station, with local cities, etc. pay most of the remaining. > I don't believe those costs are being reflected in the sales price of the > Hydrogen. Since it's not sustainable for the state to continue to subsidize > the fuel stations much longer, I would expect
Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
Ok - we disagree about the date to use. I was just using CARB’s analysis and the dates they pick. But it really doesn’t matter. On number of stations, you repeat exactly what I said, that the 2020 numbers are a projection. It had to be, 2020 wasn’t over. But everything prior was an actual number. I took issue with your statement that there were only five additional stations since 2017. In 2018 alone, there were more than than five new stations. And the DOE numbers you cite reflect an increase of many, many more than five new stations since 2017. In regard to your question “ How is comparing the number of stations that are ACTUALLY open not an "apples to apples" comparison?” - If you are trying to compare how many vehicles you have the capacity to serve, there is not a one to one match. A hydrogen fueling “spot” can refuel many more cars, provide fuel for many more miles…however you want to measure it. Put another way, if you were to built the “right” number of charging stations for a million BEVs, and then assumed that the amount for BEVs would be the same number as for a million FCEVs, you would be dead wrong. Hope that my point was clearer. I wasn’t making a point as to which was better or not for infrastructure. But yes, currently the infrastructure for FCEVs is more under built than it is for BEVs. But my earlier point was that, as an individual consumer, if you have adequate H2 infrastructure for you, it’s not a disadvantage. Granted, because of the limited infrastructure currently, those consumers in the US for whom it would work fine is very small. In California, much less so. But still not an optimal situation. But it worked fine for my wife, for me, and for my son because we had infrastructure near where we work (or on the way), near we live or both. Your point about subsidies was correct, but my point was actually about *government* subsidies, and the 5:1 was BEVcharging:FCEVfueling. As far as self-sufficiency, you may be correct, but I’ve seen no information about the BEV side. I’m not talking about the individual, but the industry. How soon can the industry be self-sufficient, meaning without government subsidies for infrastructure? What’s the pathway to a successful charging industry? Lastly, while I remain hopeful about fueling at home, I’m not holding breathe that I will be able to do so economically in the near future. I don’t think that’s a fruitful discussion on the FCEV side. On the BEV side, that’s a big advantage IF it works for you both economically and practically. When I tried to purchase a RAV4-EV, it must have worked for me, but by the time I bought my first FCEV, it wouldn’t have. It *is* possible that even if it didn’t work well for me, I still would have bought it and made do, given my involvement in the field. In case it’s not clear, I’m just trying to correct incorrect information,and NOT weigh in on your question. - Mark Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > On Aug 24, 2021, at 9:26 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV wrote: > > >> >> You want to define it in your way, fine, know know that the industry and the >> state look at it >> differently. Despite the marketing PR of the OEMs. >> >> “Modern” batteries - We differ on definition of modern EV versus not. I view >> the not- modern ones >> to be the ones that were common in the late-1800s to the early 1900s. >> >> Besides the chemistry of the battery, how else do they differ? How would you >> view those BEVs or >> fuel cells that use completely different chemistries? > > Ok fine. Since a FCEV uses motors, controllers and batteries, that are > essentially the same as > BEVs, that means that both FCEV and BEV have been under development for > exactly the same length of > time, regardless of what start date you choose. > If you want to separate out Fuel Cell developement, the first fuel cell was > developed a couple > years before the first Lead-Acid battery and about 30 years before the first > EV. > >> Number of stations - where did you find the incorrect numbers at DOE? >> >> If you look at the above document, 31 stations in 2017, 39 in 2018, 44 in >> 2019, 58 in 2020 (given >> date of document, this would have to be projected), and projected 2021 of 62. > > That document CLEARLY states those are "projected" numbers. > " The latest pre-COVID projections show that up to 58 stations may achieve > Open-Retail > status by the end of 2020" > > DOE's website shows a total of 53 stations currently active in the US and > Canada with 45 stations > in California. > https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/hydrogen_locations.html#/find/nearest?fuel=HY > >> In comparing infrastructure numbers, what would be interesting is a >> comparison on an apples to >> apples basis. What’s the fueling/recharging capacity that is equivalent? I >> know it’s been done >> someplace. > > How is comparing the number of stations that are ACTUALLY open not an "apples > to apples" > comparison? > > M
