from:"Alberto G. Corona "

I pray to God for the grace of devoting to Him as much time as the average
atheist

2015-05-02 10:47 GMT+02:00 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com:



 On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 9:54 AM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Thu, Apr 30, 2015  Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote:

  Your consciousness always exists in all the places it exists.


 I would argue that assigning a position to consciousness, other than the
 place you're thinking about, is problematical.



 Various conscious experiences can be ascribed to an entity called John
 Clark. Since each conscious experience is different from each other you
 can't put them all at the same time and place, they must exist in different
 times or places or both a different time and a different place. You cannot
 expect the John Clark in one time and place to know of the conscious
 experience of a different John Clark in a different time and place. This is
 made obvious in cases involving your old friend: duplicating machines. If
 someone made a clone of John Clarke in the Andromeda Galaxy, Earth-Clark
 would be unaware of the experiences of the Andromeda-Clark, both both would
 be conscious.


  In past and future points in time


 And if my consciousness exists in the distant past or distant future but
 I am not conscious of it then things are even more problematic.


 It's no problem at all. JohnClark_1999 is aware of some moment in 1999,
 while JohnClark_2008 is aware of some time in 2008, etc. You can't expect
 JohnClark_2015 to be consciously aware of moments in 2008 or 2018.



  Just because the you-here-now isn't aware of them in the you-elsewhere
 doesn't mean the you-elsewhere's consciousness has stopped or is not
 existing.


 I thought aware was a synonym for consciousness, if I'm not aware of my
 consciousness then what are we talking about?


 The other observer moments that belong to you, which are different from
 the one before you here and now.



  We're far from having solved all the problems in physics so it's very
 premature to say that mathematics can explain, much less create, all of it.


  I said it can explain all possible observations, since all possible
 computations exist in arithmetic, and by computationalism, all possible
 observations (conscious states) can be produced by the appropriate
 computation.


 If you observe some bizarre physical phenomenon for the first time and it
 seems counter intuitive and you ask me to explain how it works and I say
 you observed it because the following neurons in your brain fired in the
 following order would you consider that an adequate physical explanation?


 It's not a physical explanation, but a possible explanation for physics
 itself.


 Even video games have laws of physics, they may not correspond to our
 laws of physics but they are laws nevertheless, and it is the job of video
 game physicists to figure out what those video game laws are.


 If and when you ever get around to reading the rest of Bruno's UDA, you're
 going to regret not having done so 10 years prior.

 Jason

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Re: SciAm predicts strong future for renewable energy

I was tempted to say: Then, if no protection from sun rays, 400+ people
are going to die, May it remain in your conscience

But I think that, once again, you will not understand.

I think that the lack of understanding of ironies is a sign of social
decadence. It means that people are so obsessed with a particular thing
that they can not see the context,  Anything against his little obsession
is taken as an attack.

And it may be an attack, but not as fierce as he think. But because the
factual-obsessed lilliputian is not aware of the wider context, is
incapable to respond at the same level  with some sarcasm.

For example you could have ridiculed me with some other exageration and we
would have had a good time. But you prefer to throw at me the cold facts.
But this is boring and that was not the point!. of course I know it!. This
creates an  inhumane and careless atmospher. And if lilliputians like that
reach some power, things may be not as innocuous and intrascendent as a
conversation between equals.

Warning: sarcasm mode. Don´t read it if you are not ready. You have been
warned:

So for mental sanity of all, I recommend to establish limits for saving the
planet. for example saving the planet in the morning, stop at lunch and
continue a little more in the evening. But intercalate it with exercises
trying to laugh at something, specially oneself. If the planet is in
danger, you can interrupt the exercise, but most of the time, the planet
may go along without you for some hours at least.

 Initially it is hard, but with practice It can be good for the phisical
and mental healt. Try It!


2015-05-02 2:24 GMT+02:00 Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.au:

 On Sat, May 02, 2015 at 12:13:22AM +0200, Alberto G. Corona  wrote:
  I have to say that these 440 persons that die with solar energy is
  compensated by a similar number of skin cancer victims that are saved,
  since the entire surface of the country must be covered with solar panels
  so there is no way to receive sun rays.
 

 Something is awry in your calculation. You only need about 100,000
 square km to provide enough energy to supply current world
 consumption. That's a square about 300km along each side. We can
 comfortably fit one of those in our deserts outback with room to
 spare. So Australia can clean up in the energy business? Not really,
 as it would make more sense to site the solar array in the Gobi
 desert. Actually, it would make far more sense to have whole bunch of
 smaller arrays closer to where the consumption is, and to supplement
 by alternatives such as wind and tidal, but the point remains we're a
 long way from needing to cover the entire surface of the planet.


 Cheers
 --


 
 Prof Russell Standish  Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
 Principal, High Performance Coders
 Visiting Professor of Mathematics  hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
 University of New South Wales  http://www.hpcoders.com.au

 

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-- 
Alberto.

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Re: SciAm predicts strong future for renewable energy

SciAm is biased as much as any newspaper. The governments have paid
subsidies for renewable energy upto collapsing the economy with the debt in
Spain and Germany at least. The amount of money thrown at renewable energy
can not be compared with anything in history that I may remember without
using google.

If this tell something, it means just the opposite: that renewable energy
is promoted by the elite as much as they can.

How not? if they are obsessed with global warming overpopulation and all
these terror film histories that may endanger their beloved yard? Or at
least fill their yard with all these nasty childs of the disgusting
populace?

It means that renewable energy is a swindle. If any, it serves other
purpose: the purpose to stop development. What renewable energy does for
the eco-eliminationist antihumanist yard-conservation elite is not to stop
global warming, but stop men from controlling  their money for their own
purposes with cheap nuclear energy or whatever cheap other. They divert our
resources towards useless devices

2015-05-02 13:51 GMT+02:00 spudboy100 via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com:

 If we fail to use better tech for energy, the fault is not in the stars,
 Horatio, nor in ourselves, but in the elites, who know best how to line
 their own pockets, but apparently, nothing else. Not even in an Atlas
 Shrugged sort of way. Unlike what we have all been taught, grass roots
 movements rarely succeed, (witness the Tea Party) whilst whatever the
 elites desire politics and policy wise, gets done. Societies across the
 world are ruled from the top-down, not the bottom-up. Energy wise, we
 likely could have (minus- Gov subsidies) make solar work via storage tech,
 supplemented by nat gas.But this is not happening, despite breathless
 propaganda articles. SciAm is hardly unbiased, and basically has been more
 wrong than right, over the decades in its analysis.


 -Original Message-
 From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Sat, May 2, 2015 6:27 am
 Subject: Re: SciAm predicts strong future for renewable energy

   I was tempted to say: Then, if no protection from sun rays, 400+
 people are going to die, May it remain in your conscience

  But I think that, once again, you will not understand.

  I think that the lack of understanding of ironies is a sign of social
 decadence. It means that people are so obsessed with a particular thing
 that they can not see the context,  Anything against his little obsession
 is taken as an attack.

  And it may be an attack, but not as fierce as he think. But because the
 factual-obsessed lilliputian is not aware of the wider context, is
 incapable to respond at the same level  with some sarcasm.

  For example you could have ridiculed me with some other exageration and
 we would have had a good time. But you prefer to throw at me the cold
 facts. But this is boring and that was not the point!. of course I know
 it!. This creates an  inhumane and careless atmospher. And if lilliputians
 like that reach some power, things may be not as innocuous and
 intrascendent as a conversation between equals.

  Warning: sarcasm mode. Don´t read it if you are not ready. You have
 been warned:

  So for mental sanity of all, I recommend to establish limits for saving
 the planet. for example saving the planet in the morning, stop at lunch and
 continue a little more in the evening. But intercalate it with exercises
 trying to laugh at something, specially oneself. If the planet is in
 danger, you can interrupt the exercise, but most of the time, the planet
 may go along without you for some hours at least.

   Initially it is hard, but with practice It can be good for the phisical
 and mental healt. Try It!


  2015-05-02 2:24 GMT+02:00 Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.au:

 On Sat, May 02, 2015 at 12:13:22AM +0200, Alberto G. Corona  wrote:
  I have to say that these 440 persons that die with solar energy is
  compensated by a similar number of skin cancer victims that are saved,
  since the entire surface of the country must be covered with solar
 panels
  so there is no way to receive sun rays.
 

 Something is awry in your calculation. You only need about 100,000
 square km to provide enough energy to supply current world
 consumption. That's a square about 300km along each side. We can
 comfortably fit one of those in our deserts outback with room to
 spare. So Australia can clean up in the energy business? Not really,
 as it would make more sense to site the solar array in the Gobi
 desert. Actually, it would make far more sense to have whole bunch of
 smaller arrays closer to where the consumption is, and to supplement
 by alternatives such as wind and tidal, but the point remains we're a
 long way from needing to cover the entire surface of the planet.


 Cheers
 --


 
 Prof Russell Standish

Re: SciAm predicts strong future for renewable energy

I use solar energy all the day. I eat meat and vegetables and drive my car
with products made with solar energy. Everithing is a product of solar
energy. So what's the point? the point is plainly speaking, to fuck off
people in a way or another. In a way that some people display their power,
their moral superiority and to manage the resources of all of us,
indoctrinate our kids if control us in the most totalitarian way that we
can consent.

Happy enslavement

2015-05-02 17:22 GMT+02:00 spudboy100 via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com:

 Renewable could easily be a swindle, but with the Sun out there, based on
 Dyson's calculation, putting out 33 trillion times the annual human energy
 use, every second, it ought to be grabbable, somehow? Yes, the elites like
 Steyer and Soros are trying to control the serfs better, and demand that
 the serfs use less energy so that the elites can be happy. But solar is
 still working after 5 billion years, and the major bottleneck is not PV
 cells, the bottleneck is storage. Musk's lithium batteries may not do it,
 especially looking at the 3500 dollars defrayed over 10 years. Why
 renewables are seen as a fraud is that its used by the Red-Greens, as an
 excuse to grab more power. Never let a good crisis go to waste. Is that
 seawater flooding your basement yet? Me, neither.


 -Original Message-
 From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Sat, May 2, 2015 8:20 am
 Subject: Re: SciAm predicts strong future for renewable energy

  SciAm is biased as much as any newspaper. The governments have paid
 subsidies for renewable energy upto collapsing the economy with the debt in
 Spain and Germany at least. The amount of money thrown at renewable energy
 can not be compared with anything in history that I may remember without
 using google.

  If this tell something, it means just the opposite: that renewable
 energy is promoted by the elite as much as they can.

  How not? if they are obsessed with global warming overpopulation and all
 these terror film histories that may endanger their beloved yard? Or at
 least fill their yard with all these nasty childs of the disgusting
 populace?

  It means that renewable energy is a swindle. If any, it serves other
 purpose: the purpose to stop development. What renewable energy does for
 the eco-eliminationist antihumanist yard-conservation elite is not to stop
 global warming, but stop men from controlling  their money for their own
 purposes with cheap nuclear energy or whatever cheap other. They divert our
 resources towards useless devices

  2015-05-02 13:51 GMT+02:00 spudboy100 via Everything List 
 everything-list@googlegroups.com:

 If we fail to use better tech for energy, the fault is not in the stars,
 Horatio, nor in ourselves, but in the elites, who know best how to line
 their own pockets, but apparently, nothing else. Not even in an Atlas
 Shrugged sort of way. Unlike what we have all been taught, grass roots
 movements rarely succeed, (witness the Tea Party) whilst whatever the
 elites desire politics and policy wise, gets done. Societies across the
 world are ruled from the top-down, not the bottom-up. Energy wise, we
 likely could have (minus- Gov subsidies) make solar work via storage tech,
 supplemented by nat gas.But this is not happening, despite breathless
 propaganda articles. SciAm is hardly unbiased, and basically has been more
 wrong than right, over the decades in its analysis.


  -Original Message-
 From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
  Sent: Sat, May 2, 2015 6:27 am
 Subject: Re: SciAm predicts strong future for renewable energy

I was tempted to say: Then, if no protection from sun rays, 400+
 people are going to die, May it remain in your conscience

  But I think that, once again, you will not understand.

  I think that the lack of understanding of ironies is a sign of social
 decadence. It means that people are so obsessed with a particular thing
 that they can not see the context,  Anything against his little obsession
 is taken as an attack.

  And it may be an attack, but not as fierce as he think. But because the
 factual-obsessed lilliputian is not aware of the wider context, is
 incapable to respond at the same level  with some sarcasm.

  For example you could have ridiculed me with some other exageration and
 we would have had a good time. But you prefer to throw at me the cold
 facts. But this is boring and that was not the point!. of course I know
 it!. This creates an  inhumane and careless atmospher. And if lilliputians
 like that reach some power, things may be not as innocuous and
 intrascendent as a conversation between equals.

  Warning: sarcasm mode. Don´t read it if you are not ready. You have
 been warned:

  So for mental sanity of all, I recommend to establish limits for saving
 the planet. for example saving the planet

Re: SciAm predicts strong future for renewable energy

2015-05-01 Thread Alberto G. Corona

I have to say that these 440 persons that die with solar energy is
compensated by a similar number of skin cancer victims that are saved,
since the entire surface of the country must be covered with solar panels
so there is no way to receive sun rays.

2015-04-30 3:55 GMT+02:00 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com:

 On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

  Chernobyl, Three Mile Island, Fukushima, Sellafield, Hiroshima, Bikini
 atoll, Marshall Islands etc. (OK, maybe I shouldn't have been making jokes
 about this...)


 That's fine I like jokes, but  lets see how many people die to produce a
 trillion kilowatt hours of electricity for various energy sources:

 For coal 170.000  people die.

 For oil 36,000 people die

 For biofuel 24,000 people die

 For natural gas 4000 people die

 For hydroelectric 1400 people die

 For solar 440 people die

 For wind 140 people die

 For nuclear 90 people die.

   John K Clark






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-- 
Alberto.

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Re: A Beka Book and the Set Theory of Satan

2015-05-01 Thread Alberto G. Corona

Set theory is not about sets, but about deriving every other mathematics
mathematical structures from sets. It is quite cumbresome and theoretical
and does not use the natural mathematical intuitions. And thus it is not
appropriate or teaching kids. And yet is is used for teaching since the
rationalist/blank slate pedagogy thinks that kids are like void databases
that must be feed with sets of rules.

These horrible kind of mathematical teaching books that have destroyed the
pedagogy of mathematics were called at his time modern mathematics.

2015-05-01 5:50 GMT+02:00 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net:

 Surprisingly there's already a textbook teaching Bruno's ideas. :-)

 Brent


  Forwarded Message 

 https://www.abeka.com/AbekaDifference.aspx

   Mathematics

   The study of logic and order to apply to science and daily life

   Unlike the modern math theorists, who believe that mathematics is a
   creation of man and thus arbitrary and relative, _A Beka Book_ teaches
   that the laws of mathematics are a creation of God and thus absolute.
   Man's task is to search out and make use of the laws of the universe,
   both scientific and mathematical.

   _A Beka Book_ provides attractive, legible, and workable traditional
   mathematics texts that are NOT BURDENED WITH MODERN THEORIES SUCH AS SET
   THEORY. These books have been field-tested, revised, and used
   successfully for many years, making them classics with up-to-date
   appeal. Besides training students in the basic skills needed for life, A
   Beka Book traditional mathematics books teach students to believe in
   absolutes, to work diligently for right answers, and to see mathematical
   facts as part of the truth and order built into the real universe.

 As noted on
 http://boingboing.net/2012/08/07/what-do-christian-fundamentali.html



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-- 
Alberto.

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Re: A Beka Book and the Set Theory of Satan

2015-05-01 Thread Alberto G. Corona

It may be even worst

http://tldrify.com/8hh

modern mathematical methods is nothing more than the deliberate destruction
of teaching that has happened in every other discipline.

Really I don´t think that progressivism of communism is the cause but one
of the effects of a wider evil mindset that apply to all kind of elitists
or sectarian ideology:

This mindset is the one of the people that reason this way: Since knowledge
is power, let´s keep this power for ourselves, let´s dumb-down every other
to avoid their political and technical competence.  Let´s stop education
since this is the conveyor belt of social mobility and this is dangerous
for Us, the chosen ones. That way we will be safely above and they will be
ever below. For their own good, of course. We only want to make a better
world (Laughing out loud)

2015-05-01 9:14 GMT+02:00 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com:

 Set theory is not about sets, but about deriving every other mathematics
 mathematical structures from sets. It is quite cumbresome and theoretical
 and does not use the natural mathematical intuitions. And thus it is not
 appropriate or teaching kids. And yet is is used for teaching since the
 rationalist/blank slate pedagogy thinks that kids are like void databases
 that must be feed with sets of rules.

 These horrible kind of mathematical teaching books that have destroyed the
 pedagogy of mathematics were called at his time modern mathematics.

 2015-05-01 5:50 GMT+02:00 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net:

 Surprisingly there's already a textbook teaching Bruno's ideas. :-)

 Brent


  Forwarded Message 

 https://www.abeka.com/AbekaDifference.aspx

   Mathematics

   The study of logic and order to apply to science and daily life

   Unlike the modern math theorists, who believe that mathematics is a
   creation of man and thus arbitrary and relative, _A Beka Book_ teaches
   that the laws of mathematics are a creation of God and thus absolute.
   Man's task is to search out and make use of the laws of the universe,
   both scientific and mathematical.

   _A Beka Book_ provides attractive, legible, and workable traditional
   mathematics texts that are NOT BURDENED WITH MODERN THEORIES SUCH AS SET
   THEORY. These books have been field-tested, revised, and used
   successfully for many years, making them classics with up-to-date
   appeal. Besides training students in the basic skills needed for life, A
   Beka Book traditional mathematics books teach students to believe in
   absolutes, to work diligently for right answers, and to see mathematical
   facts as part of the truth and order built into the real universe.

 As noted on
 http://boingboing.net/2012/08/07/what-do-christian-fundamentali.html



 - End forwarded message -

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 --
 Alberto.




-- 
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Re: God

2015-04-29 Thread Alberto G. Corona

To divide the world history in capitalism and marxism. That is, to apply
the label capitalism to the pre-capitalist societies is a  stupid marxist
concept only with the purpose of propaganda. Not even the serious marxist
used that division. This was only for the consumption of dumbed down
leftists and other useful idiots. I don´t want to loose the time with this
nonsense.

2015-04-29 1:01 GMT+02:00 spudboy100 via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com:

 You think the Turks were Marxist? The whole Muslim world was mechantilist
 which included the sale of humans, which the Islamic world excelled in. The
 did bad things for money. The nazis also did, but they knew if they adopted
 a socialist economy for the industrial workers, they could keep them quiet
 with bribes, and it worked! Meanwhile Krupp, and the other industrialists
 benefited by lucrative gov contracts, as sort of an inner mafia. Sound
 familiar? Obamaland.

  That you seem to feel that capitalism brings people to glorious
 rationality is untrue, and I wager that even Friedman or Hayek would not
 agree with this position. The disease thing was an issue that the Spaniards
 kind of knew about, and wanting an easy takeover, selling blankets that the
 natives seemed to have no resistance to was something that not even the
 Lord could blame them for. The Renaissance crowd didn't know germ theory,
 but after centuries of various plagues, they knew that clothing could
 magically pass on killer diseases. Even the Mongols knew this, in 1346 when
 they catapulted infected corpses and clothing, at the Siege of Caffa.

  Also, the death toll of slavery shouldn't be underestimated. Do you
 think ole' massa' came out and massaged the feet of the slaves at the end
 of a hard day? The Belgian thing is sadly true. So, are you claiming that
 capitalism is more ethical then Marxism? I would add yes, today! But not
 always. In the past there were reasons that the common Joe looked to
 Marxism as appealing. With the slaughter of 80 million by the Marxists
 during the 20th century, plus a crappier life style, minus any freedom, I
 would have opted for people to drop communism like a hot shit sandwich, but
 they don't. Why? In part its because of the neocommunist elites that buy
 all politicians. Its Crony Capitalism for them, and more and more socialism
 for the serfs. (Hayek-style). I did compare Obama's economy with old
 Adolf's since it seems similar. Look at the Chinese billionaires, look at
 Russian oligarchs. Remember the ending to Animal Farm, from man to pig,
 and pig to man..

 -Original Message-
 From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Tue, Apr 28, 2015 6:04 pm
 Subject: Re: God

   It is boring to discuss with nominalist, because you can not discuss
 anything but facts,  Look at the philosophical and theological
 considerations of my first comment here, that I consider crucial to
 understand and discuss and look at the boring and uninteresting details
 that I´m forced to discuss now.

  And when facts are nothing but manipulated falsehoods. Not by your
 fault but due to disinformation from third party interests,  then it is
 loss of time. but anyway.

  I dont care if you are right or left. I care bout the truth. Falsehood
 is irritating but nonsense is comic. For example:


   . The Turks were also nominal capitalists and did massacre even
 when losing Armenian customers.


  is really really comic


  , The Spaniards and Portuguese were responsible for millions of deaths
 in the New World, and they were capitalist and very religious. These were
 children of the inquisition who were also charmers.


  The immense majority were due to new diseases. The same diseases that
 decimated Europe  few decades before plus some others that were common in
 europe but new for the indians,

  Concerning the Congo, I repeat what I said. Concerning Inquisition, it
 is a myth. In a single normal day the French revolutionaries killed more
 than the inquisition in Spain in all his history. See for example this:

  https://youtu.be/qhlAqklH0do


  Thus said, to kill and be killed is something that every country has
 done. Except, of course the archipielago idiot. the nation of progressive
 good-for-nothings of every nation, whose history start every morning. They
 live in the supermarket of History, and they bough all the pieces of
 goodness and brightness of humanity for themselves and for their
 progressive lego.  The rest of us have to share the bad episodes.





   That the turks that massacred the armenians were capitalists and
 because that they killed a million armenians is the highest piece of idiocy
 that I have ever seen (sorry man) They were muslims that wanted to restore
 the caliphate. They killed armenians because it was the only christian
 minority without support in the West.

   The supposed belgian massacres were poscolonial, and the book that
 denounce

Re: God

2015-04-28 Thread Alberto G. Corona

That the turks that massacred the armenians were capitalists and because
that they killed a million armenians is the highest piece of idiocy that I
have ever seen (sorry man) They were muslims that wanted to restore the
caliphate. They killed armenians because it was the only christian minority
without support in the West.

 The supposed belgian massacres were poscolonial, and the book that
denounce the massacres during the colonial period was done by someone that
worked for the URSS, that wanted to invade all the western ex-colonies with
comunists puppets directly managed by Stalinist delegates, and they did it.

The supposed masacres of black people in the south where do you find your
sources?.

 You are still poisoned by cold war propaganda. specially the ones that
have passed trough the highly corrupt universities.

2015-04-28 16:05 GMT+02:00 spudboy100 via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com:

 Atheists can do evil, and so can religious capitalists-at least if we look
 at history over the last 400 years. It's not that people were not like this
 for thousands of years. It's merely that atheists identified and still
 identify with Marxist principles, if only to irrigate the straight
 majority. For instance, in the US, most gays don't acknowledge the
 terrorist jihad that indeed targets them as a group under sharia law, and
 choose to remain absolutely silent even though hundreds of gays from the
 middle east have been slaughtered by various jihadist government. Why? My
 guess is partly out of loyalty to communist principles and politics (again
 to irritate, or out of spite). Part of this loyalty is also to atheism,
 because the old books were condemnatory of homosexuality. Old hurts
 sometimes over stay their practicality.* The capitalists who ran Belgian
 before WW1 killed millions in the Congo. The old Turks were nominally
 capitalist, massacred the Armenians, the Southern Whites and their love
 affair with slavery must have killed millions, over 2 or 3 centuries? They
 were religious and they were capitalists. But, it is important to note that
 during the 20th century the grand prize for mass murder must go to the
 communists who were very serious atheists. Let's say, conservatively, 55
 million killed during the 20th century.

 What's this say about our species? Nothing good. What's a good way out?
 One way to think about this is to take our civilization more seriously
 (liberals do not!) and focus on making internal and external wins.
 Discussing this would take a lot of brain-work, and this is only worth
 doing if we can agree on goals. If anyone disagrees with the premise, then
 its a closed door. If all is good, then one is likely a happy liberal
 (neocommunism), and all is well.

 Mitch

 * One exception to this mind set are the Gay Patriots, who take umbrage,
 at Sharia practioners, murdering  their fellow gays in the middle east. A
 tiny spot of rationality there.


 -Original Message-
 From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Tue, Apr 28, 2015 4:17 am
 Subject: Re: God

  Some atheists believe unconsciously (because their faith is not fully
 developped and conscious, and they avoid thinking about it in every way
 possible, in the same way that primitive people) in inmutable phisical laws
 like quantuum mechanics or Relativity in the same way that 100 years ago
 they believed in Newtonian Phisics. Now some believe in Math and the
 multiverse. Others simply drink, practice extreme sports and suicide
 themselves.

   Is'nt that anything more that an uncreated principle that gives
 existence to everything else?  Yes. Isn't that search for an ultimate
 equation, law, explanatory principle anything more than the monotheist
 mindset trying to lie himself?

  What these  son called atheists are after? They are shameful deists
 that have depersonalized even more the deist's god. And what the deists of
 all times are after?  To deny the moral dimension of God  and thus the
 moral dimensions of human beings, his limitations, his fallen nature. They
 need to deny the existence of the mere notion of human nature, the concept
 of person.

  As Sophocles said. there are many mysteries in the universe, but the
 highest mystery is the human being

  And why this denial? because they want the power to treat human beings
 as cattle, to destroy and create ad their will. In small scale, to hurt
 others without any self remorse, to prosecute their individualistic life
 treating others as objects for his own satisfaction, even when they are
 altruists, the others are numbers in a score table of points in the
 olimpiades of self-righteousness and self sanctification. We praise our
 Atheists overlords . Please eat our children. Amen.

  2015-04-27 21:05 GMT+02:00 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net:

  On 4/27/2015 6:58 AM, Jason Resch wrote:



 On Monday, April 27, 2015, Dennis Ochei  do.infinit...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  I tend to agree

Re: God

2015-04-28 Thread Alberto G. Corona

It is boring to discuss with nominalist, because you can not discuss
anything but facts,  Look at the philosophical and theological
considerations of my first comment here, that I consider crucial to
understand and discuss and look at the boring and uninteresting details
that I´m forced to discuss now.

And when facts are nothing but manipulated falsehoods. Not by your fault
but due to disinformation from third party interests,  then it is loss of
time. but anyway.

I dont care if you are right or left. I care bout the truth. Falsehood is
irritating but nonsense is comic. For example:


. The Turks were also nominal capitalists and did massacre even when
 losing Armenian customers.


is really really comic


  , The Spaniards and Portuguese were responsible for millions of deaths
 in the New World, and they were capitalist and very religious. These were
 children of the inquisition who were also charmers.


The immense majority were due to new diseases. The same diseases that
decimated Europe  few decades before plus some others that were common in
europe but new for the indians,

Concerning the Congo, I repeat what I said. Concerning Inquisition, it is a
myth. In a single normal day the French revolutionaries killed more than
the inquisition in Spain in all his history. See for example this:

https://youtu.be/qhlAqklH0do


Thus said, to kill and be killed is something that every country has done.
Except, of course the archipielago idiot. the nation of progressive
good-for-nothings of every nation, whose history start every morning. They
live in the supermarket of History, and they bough all the pieces of
goodness and brightness of humanity for themselves and for their
progressive lego.  The rest of us have to share the bad episodes.





  That the turks that massacred the armenians were capitalists and because
 that they killed a million armenians is the highest piece of idiocy that I
 have ever seen (sorry man) They were muslims that wanted to restore the
 caliphate. They killed armenians because it was the only christian minority
 without support in the West.

   The supposed belgian massacres were poscolonial, and the book that
 denounce the massacres during the colonial period was done by someone that
 worked for the URSS, that wanted to invade all the western ex-colonies with
 comunists puppets directly managed by Stalinist delegates, and they did
 it.

  The supposed masacres of black people in the south where do you find
 your sources?.

   You are still poisoned by cold war propaganda. specially the ones that
 have passed trough the highly corrupt universities.




 -Original Message-
 From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Tue, Apr 28, 2015 12:45 pm
 Subject: Re: God

  That the turks that massacred the armenians were capitalists and because
 that they killed a million armenians is the highest piece of idiocy that I
 have ever seen (sorry man) They were muslims that wanted to restore the
 caliphate. They killed armenians because it was the only christian minority
 without support in the West.

   The supposed belgian massacres were poscolonial, and the book that
 denounce the massacres during the colonial period was done by someone that
 worked for the URSS, that wanted to invade all the western ex-colonies with
 comunists puppets directly managed by Stalinist delegates, and they did
 it.

  The supposed masacres of black people in the south where do you find
 your sources?.

   You are still poisoned by cold war propaganda. specially the ones that
 have passed trough the highly corrupt universities.

  2015-04-28 16:05 GMT+02:00 spudboy100 via Everything List 
 everything-list@googlegroups.com:

  Atheists can do evil, and so can religious capitalists-at least if we
 look at history over the last 400 years. It's not that people were not like
 this for thousands of years. It's merely that atheists identified and still
 identify with Marxist principles, if only to irrigate the straight
 majority. For instance, in the US, most gays don't acknowledge the
 terrorist jihad that indeed targets them as a group under sharia law, and
 choose to remain absolutely silent even though hundreds of gays from the
 middle east have been slaughtered by various jihadist government. Why? My
 guess is partly out of loyalty to communist principles and politics (again
 to irritate, or out of spite). Part of this loyalty is also to atheism,
 because the old books were condemnatory of homosexuality. Old hurts
 sometimes over stay their practicality.* The capitalists who ran Belgian
 before WW1 killed millions in the Congo. The old Turks were nominally
 capitalist, massacred the Armenians, the Southern Whites and their love
 affair with slavery must have killed millions, over 2 or 3 centuries? They
 were religious and they were capitalists. But, it is important to note that
 during the 20th century the grand prize for mass murder must go

Re: God

2015-04-28 Thread Alberto G. Corona

Some atheists believe unconsciously (because their faith is not fully
developped and conscious, and they avoid thinking about it in every way
possible, in the same way that primitive people) in inmutable phisical laws
like quantuum mechanics or Relativity in the same way that 100 years ago
they believed in Newtonian Phisics. Now some believe in Math and the
multiverse. Others simply drink, practice extreme sports and suicide
themselves.

 Is'nt that anything more that an uncreated principle that gives existence
to everything else?  Yes. Isn't that search for an ultimate equation, law,
explanatory principle anything more than the monotheist mindset trying to
lie himself?

What these  son called atheists are after? They are shameful deists that
have depersonalized even more the deist's god. And what the deists of all
times are after?  To deny the moral dimension of God  and thus the moral
dimensions of human beings, his limitations, his fallen nature. They need
to deny the existence of the mere notion of human nature, the concept of
person.

As Sophocles said. there are many mysteries in the universe, but the
highest mystery is the human being

And why this denial? because they want the power to treat human beings as
cattle, to destroy and create ad their will. In small scale, to hurt others
without any self remorse, to prosecute their individualistic life treating
others as objects for his own satisfaction, even when they are altruists,
the others are numbers in a score table of points in the olimpiades of
self-righteousness and self sanctification. We praise our Atheists
overlords . Please eat our children. Amen.

2015-04-27 21:05 GMT+02:00 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net:

  On 4/27/2015 6:58 AM, Jason Resch wrote:



 On Monday, April 27, 2015, Dennis Ochei do.infinit...@gmail.com wrote:
  I tend to agree that the word God has way too much baggage. I feel like
 it's used to induce a fictitious sense of agreement. If you said
 you believed in God, no one would think you were referring to the material
 universe or arithmetic. You would be performing an act of deception on them.

 It would be good to clarify, but arithmetical truth is infinite,
 incomprehensible,


 Wrong, it's comprehensible within bigger systems.

 uncreated,


 Maybe.  Maybe not.

 immutable,


 Meaningless.  That's like saying red is immutable because it always
 means red.

 omnipresent,


 Or it's only present when you think of it.

 transcendent,


 Mystification.

 the source of reality and consciousness,


 That's what YOU say.

 etc. If you ask a Christian, Sikh, Hindu and Platonist if they believe in
 God and they all say yes, is the Platonist being any more deceptive than
 any other, when they each hold different ideas in their head?


 No, which exactly why no serious person should apply the term God to
 anything - unless of course they want to stir up religious fervor and
 create a pogrom, crusade, holocaust, jihad, or theocracy.

 Brent
 Peter: What would you say if I told you there was Master of all we see, a
 Creator of the universe, who watches and judges everything we do.
 Curls: I'd say you were about to take up a collection.
 --- Johnny Hart, in B.C.

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Re: Where are they?

2015-04-26 Thread Alberto G. Corona

Uncertainty is not the same than the certainty of obliteration, as
Boltzmann I suppose that he felt. Freemann Dyson tried to overcome the
Boltzmannian conclussions not for a intellectual exercise, but as a serious
treat to the vital perspectives of people here and now.

Uncertainty is not depressing, it is encouraging. Makes you to be more
alert.  Makes you to bet in some outcomes, fight against the plans of
others.

Commenting in what you say,  Nobody know what will happen. You reach
prepature conclussions based on your local environment, The idea that the
future is to one wold government exist since Atila or since the first
tribeman holded the first stone.

But it seems that very powerful people has endorsed it. If I were
super-powerful and rich and I were the kind of enlightened idiot with
stone-age morality that is very common today, I would consider the planet
as a my yard and would work for maintaining this yard for my own family
intact for generations, with my family in power: clean, ordered and with as
little  populace as possible. I also would fight for a world government
where... Ahem, I would better take the responsibility of caring for you.

2015-04-24 0:36 GMT+02:00 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com:



 On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 11:49 AM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 The amazing thing is how what would happen in 100 trillion years may
 preoccupy so seriously to some people that would induce to suicide.
 Boltzman committed suicide in part because his own theories of
 termodinamical dead of the universe more or less.

 Other people are influenced equally hard, but unconsciously by very long
 term perspectives that are beyond his own timespan.

 And this tells something very important about the human condition: once
 day by day survival is solved, people need a meaning. that means that he
 need to live in a society with a plan and to work for this plan, which is a
 kind of salvation.


 I agree with this.

 The problem is that technological progress invalidates previous social
 constructs. For example, for a long time the concept of nation-state
 provided such a society. The concept of nation-state does not seem able to
 survive modern communication and transportation technologies. Things will
 only get weirder with VR and so on.

 What then?


 This is in the constitution of human beings, induced by evolution if you
 like, but it is there no doubt. suicide means that the person think
 unconsciously that it can not contribute. we are very egoistic in the short
 term, but in the long term we are like ants. this is too fast but I can
 argue in detail about all of this

 2015-04-20 0:04 GMT+02:00 LizR lizj...@gmail.com:

 In my opinion extensive Dysonisation will only occur later in the
 stelliferous era - in the 100 trillion years when the galaxy (and the few
 others still visible in the far distance) glow rose-red from having a
 population exclusively made of stellar remnants and M class dwarfs. At this
 point some species may have made it through the evolutionary heritage
 bottleneck (have conquered the desire to consume endlessly and to wipe out
 rivals, I mean) - plus, it will be a lot more obvious that the universe's
 resources are running low, and conservation is in order.

 Riffing...

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Re: Where are they?

2015-04-26 Thread Alberto G. Corona

What happens with the (unconscious) nominalists is that you fight the
details while ignoring the categories. I have the least interest in
discussing the life of Boltzmann or anyone. What is important for me is to
stress that suicide and depression is a form of social apoptosis.

2015-04-26 3:07 GMT+02:00 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net:

  On 4/20/2015 3:51 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

 * once day by day survival is solved, people need a meaning.*


 If it works for them why is it your problem?


  That is why modern people put his life at risk in extreme sports and so
 on: short term risk evade from existential vacuum.

 2015-04-20 12:49 GMT+02:00 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com:

 The amazing thing is how what would happen in 100 trillion years may
 preoccupy so seriously to some people that would induce to suicide.
 Boltzman committed suicide in part because his own theories of
 termodinamical dead of the universe more or less.


 Nonsense.  He was in poor health and he had long suffered drastic swings
 in mood.  Today he would be diagnosed as bipolar.  He also had reason to
 be  depressed because his ideas were rejected on the Continent.  They were
 considered crazy because it was obviously impossible to derive irreversible
 processes from reversible physics.


  Other people are influenced equally hard, but unconsciously by very
 long term perspectives that are beyond his own timespan.

  And this tells something very important about the human condition: once
 day by day survival is solved, people need a meaning. that means that he
 need to live in a society with a plan and to work for this plan, which is a
 kind of salvation. This is in the constitution of human beings, induced by
 evolution if you like, but it is there no doubt. suicide means that the
 person think unconsciously that it can not contribute.


 Yes, I think that is more accurate than suicide over thermodynamics.
 Boltzmann's successor Paul Ehrenfest also committed suicide and also
 suffered severe depression.  Ehrenfest was always very critical of
 himself.  After arranging for the care of his other children, he shot his
 Down syndrome son and then himself.

 Brent

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Re: Where are they?

2015-04-26 Thread Alberto G. Corona

The reasons are wherever. Just hear depressed people or last writings of
suicide people. There are many other social adaptations like this. for
example the wite of the eyes.

b
But at the level of depression or suicide, moral feelings like for example
the self remorse when we do something bad to others and move us to beg
pardon . Or the weight that we carry when do wrong things in general. Only
psychopaths are free from that.

That these are adaptations is self evident. Because the wise people have
know that since the beginning of the time: A society can not work not nor
ever will work without these moral aspects of human nature and these
impulses are universal for all peoples all times.

That the science has'nt studied that in detail tell a lot about how deeply
flawed and biased  the modern science is.

2015-04-26 10:20 GMT+02:00 LizR lizj...@gmail.com:

 On 26 April 2015 at 19:43, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote:

 What happens with the (unconscious) nominalists is that you fight the
 details while ignoring the categories. I have the least interest in
 discussing the life of Boltzmann or anyone. What is important for me is to
 stress that suicide and depression is a form of social apoptosis.

 I'm not sure I like the implications of that, especially when you're
 talking about someone like Boltzmann. Do you have a good reason to think
 that suicide and depression evolved to rid the body of society of faulty
 cells, rather than just being a spandrel resulting, say, from having a
 complex nervous system?

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Re: Origin of mathematics

You think in terms of computing reality. That is not my point. I mean
computing the salient aspects of reality approximately by living beings.
with the purpose of avoid entropic decay.

For example, a flower must compute when the amount of light is right for
opening the petals, the insect that pollinate the flower, must compute when
to start the journey fliying to detect the flower. A  lion that attack
laterally must compute speed and direction in the line to calculate in
which direction run after the antelope. A bacteria must compute which
quantity of marker indicates that the density of the colony is enough to
synchronize the production of antigen etc.

2015-04-25 23:22 GMT+02:00 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be:


 On 25 Apr 2015, at 15:50, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

 Mathematics may be the simplest rules that produce complexity that can be
 computed.


 ... and not computed.

 Always remember that the computable is only a tiny part of the
 arithmetical reality, which is 99,999..998 % non computable.



 Reality may be the most complex game possible with the simplest rules
 possible, so that some elements can exist and live while responding to what
 happens around them.

 To live is to compute.  If the rules of the game were a bit more
 complicated than necessary, the world would not exist, because nobody would
 live and thus observe it.


 The problem is that we cannot distinguish the non computable from the
 computable empirically. A machine much more complex than ourselves can fail
 us into believing in non-computable, in a computable way, but comp offers
 indirect clues, like finding trace of the non-computable below our
 substitution level. QM confirms this, somehow.

 Life occurs at the frontier between the computable and the non
 computable.

 Bruno



 2015-04-25 3:48 GMT+02:00 Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.au:

 On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 05:23:38PM -0700, meekerdb wrote:
  On 4/24/2015 2:57 PM, John Mikes wrote:
  Liz and Friends of Nearer Geography:
  I wrote so many times and nobody reflected so far.
  WHY is 2 + 2 = 4 if there is a VALID concept like RANDOM?
  Why not  2 + 2 =  -175,834? or even '1'?  (Without
  changing the game).
  I deny random, it would eliminate all our technology, science,
  physics, etc. etc.
 
  Random doesn't mean anything goes, it means not-deterministic.  It
  means exactly the same system may produce different outcomes.  And
  if you try to add two meters to two meters your result may well be
  4.123 or 3.999876.  So far this has not destroyed technology,
  science, or physics.  Engineers deal with it in every system.
 
  Brent
  2+2=5 for large values of 2.
 

 Exactly. Thanks Brent.

 --


 
 Prof Russell Standish  Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
 Principal, High Performance Coders
 Visiting Professor of Mathematics  hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
 University of New South Wales  http://www.hpcoders.com.au

 

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Re: God

If you read just extracts and headlines, you will never understand the news.

2015-04-25 6:40 GMT+02:00 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com:

 On Fri, Apr 24, 2015  Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote:

  Someones like Paul Feyerabend are also for the separation of State and
 Science, which is something very urgent now.


 I pretty much lost interest in anything  Paul Feyerabend thinks is
 rational and just after he wrote:

  The church at the time of Galileo was much more faithful to reason than
 Galileo himself, and also took into consideration the ethical and social
 consequences of Galileo's doctrine. Its verdict against Galileo was
 rational and just, and revisionism can be legitimized solely for motives of
 political opportunism.

 Paul Feyerabend is a jackass.

   John K Clark



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Re: Origin of mathematics

Mathematics may be the simplest rules that produce complexity that can be
computed. Reality may be the most complex game possible with the simplest
rules possible, so that some elements can exist and live while responding
to what happens around them.

To live is to compute.  If the rules of the game were a bit more
complicated than necessary, the world would not exist, because nobody would
live and thus observe it.

2015-04-25 3:48 GMT+02:00 Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.au:

 On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 05:23:38PM -0700, meekerdb wrote:
  On 4/24/2015 2:57 PM, John Mikes wrote:
  Liz and Friends of Nearer Geography:
  I wrote so many times and nobody reflected so far.
  WHY is 2 + 2 = 4 if there is a VALID concept like RANDOM?
  Why not  2 + 2 =  -175,834? or even '1'?  (Without
  changing the game).
  I deny random, it would eliminate all our technology, science,
  physics, etc. etc.
 
  Random doesn't mean anything goes, it means not-deterministic.  It
  means exactly the same system may produce different outcomes.  And
  if you try to add two meters to two meters your result may well be
  4.123 or 3.999876.  So far this has not destroyed technology,
  science, or physics.  Engineers deal with it in every system.
 
  Brent
  2+2=5 for large values of 2.
 

 Exactly. Thanks Brent.

 --


 
 Prof Russell Standish  Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
 Principal, High Performance Coders
 Visiting Professor of Mathematics  hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
 University of New South Wales  http://www.hpcoders.com.au

 

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Re: God

The heuristics of not considering the reasoning because you don´t like the
conclusion is fine for living, but not for discussion with other people
with the purpose of learning something new. So excuse moi if I don't take
you seriously into account in the future.

2015-04-25 17:39 GMT+02:00 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com:

 On Sat, Apr 25, 2015  Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote:

  If you read just extracts and headlines, you will never understand the
 news.


 I agree, but I thought we were talking about a jackass by the name of Paul
 Feyerabend.

   John K Clark

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Re: God

2015-04-24 Thread Alberto G. Corona

2015-04-24 14:42 GMT+02:00 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be:


  The problem is not capitalisme here, but the liars, and the absence of
 real separation between politics and media.

 Indeed.

Someones like Paul Feyerabend are also for the separation of State and
Science, which is something very urgent now.

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Re: God

2015-04-23 Thread Alberto G. Corona

Really I see no difference between Islam and political religions like
Marxism, since Islam is a political religion created by a political leader.

 I could say that the motopoesis of Marx was similar than the one of
Mohamed. Marx conposed  an utophia and a strategy of violent conquest of
the world with the materials of their time. David Ricardo economy, Hegelian
phylosophy, social darwinism. None of these were intended for that
purpose.   He called his mithopoetic creation a science, since science
was the most reputated source of authority of his time.  Mohammed did
exactly the same with the materials of their age.

2015-04-23 15:59 GMT+02:00 spudboy100 via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com:

 Please do not ignore the mass murders of Atheist Stalin, Atheist Mao, and
 Atheist Pol Pot. Irrationality arrive in at least two flavors, and only one
 is religious. Mao's' Great Leap Forward is the largest killing in human
 history. Having said this, it appears that the Islamists are trying to beat
 this enviable record.


 -Original Message-
 From: Dennis Ochei do.infinit...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Wed, Apr 22, 2015 6:42 pm
 Subject: God

  Yes, ignorance and fanaticism under any banner, including that of science
 and reason, will leave a trail of bodies in their wake. But unless you have
 an alternative to using reason and science to understand the world around
 and within us (divine revelation?) i don't see your point.

  Religion gives people bad reasons to be good, when good reasons abound.

  Also, im not a nominalist.

These people like you are the ones that the world must fear

   Yes! Tremble! Mwhahahahaha!

   haha, there is nothing fear from me. My hands are tied, since I know
 harming others is equivalent to harming myself

 On Wednesday, April 22, 2015, Alberto G. Corona  agocor...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  Poor nominalists...

  Ever what you call science and reason has claimed prevalence over
 religion has been to produce massacres, since 1789 and even before. the
 religion of the ones that wave the flags of science and reason, that
 is, thae ones that claim knowledge without conscience that what they have
 is some kind of faith based on a particular metaphysics. are the most
 dangerous ones.

  These people like you are the ones that the world must fear

  2015-04-22 22:50 GMT+02:00 Dennis Ochei do.infinit...@gmail.com:

 I think you interpretted my words in a different way than I intended. My
 point was merely that theists use motte and bailey tactics, modifying their
 definition of God as soon as you start tightening the screws. If you cut
 off one head the theist will confabulate a new one for their religious
 belief. People say science cannot kill religion. But I say that science has
 killed religion countless times, and continues to do so. But religion rises
 again from its ashes, generally more benign than before.


  Once we have dispelled illusions, the religion that emerges then will
 be beautiful. But until that time most instances of religion are things
 that reason and empiricism must put down to perfect.


 On Wednesday, April 22, 2015, John Mikes  jami...@gmail.com wrote:

  Dennis:

  *God always means something just shy of disproven and always fills
 the gaps of understanding ...*

   I don't need to disprove something that has not been proven - or
 at least described as possible. BTW: nothing can be 'proven' except for
 ignorance.
  To keep pace with the unfathomable Everything (not the restricted
 physical topic-content of this list) the flexibility of the human
 (ignorant) mind requires a 'creator', a 'sustainer' a BOSS like a king
 for a country. That is called 'GOD'.
  You may believe (in) it. Know you cannot. So there is no way to
 disprove.
  Sometimes 'God' fills the gaps of misunderstanding (ignorance) as
 well.

   I don't believe that going back to more primitive times (less facts
 included into our worldview) even the smartest(?) minds could LEAD our
 ignorance to better wisdom. Aristotle's 'total' (in my pun: the Aris -
 Total) was MORE than the sum of HIS counted ingredients, which included
 only the listable material parts. Then we have learned about functions,
 attributes, connections, variants, variations etc. and added lots of
 includable 'parts' to the total.
  Plato did not even pretend to visualize the 'world': he imagined a
 SHADOW of it on the wall as our percept of reality(?), situated BEHIND us
 (=invisibly).

   I esteem Bruno's ideas - am no mathematician - can rarely follow
 them, yet I never got a reply to my question about what are the NUMBERS
 from him.
  I consider 'computation' as (Lat) com (cum) - putare (thinking),
 mind's work, to add 2 and 2 together, definitely not restricted to the
 numberical terms. It may be also to add an animal, or plant to an
 environment. Real, or fake.

   Since the early 90s I participated on more than a dozen discussion
 lists, this one has exciting

Re: God

2015-04-23 Thread Alberto G. Corona

In Short :  either  you know that you believe  or you believe that you know

In any case you can not avoid belief

 if you are in the first group, you are being objective, you know your
standpoint of ignorance, and you can reason about it. This paradoxically is
the most exceptic of the two standpoints. You will be tolerant and
compassionate with every other since you know that no one is free from
ignorance. and ignorance therefore is the most probable source of evil.

if you are in the second group (the gnostic standpoint), yo are unaware of
your ignorance. You are not conscious of your beliefs as beliefs Your own
metaphysics is hidden from your rational judgement That is the purest form
of faith in his most primitive sense. Since you take your beliefs as
knowledge you will consider that every price is worth to pay for the
widespread of your truth. since you communicate the truth and other people
and they don´t accept it, being so obvious for you, probably you will think
that these people are evil, or controlled by some evil persons or gods or
social conditions.

 I suppose that I don´t need to explain what are the consequences of that
second standpoint. This is the standpoint of scientism, when scientific
disciplines that have consequences for human politics are taken as a
politic-religious ideology, as knowledge above and beyond belief.


2015-04-23 0:42 GMT+02:00 Dennis Ochei do.infinit...@gmail.com:

 Yes, ignorance and fanaticism under any banner, including that of science
 and reason, will leave a trail of bodies in their wake. But unless you have
 an alternative to using reason and science to understand the world around
 and within us (divine revelation?) i don't see your point.

 Religion gives people bad reasons to be good, when good reasons abound.

 Also, im not a nominalist.

  These people like you are the ones that the world must fear

 Yes! Tremble! Mwhahahahaha!

 haha, there is nothing fear from me. My hands are tied, since I know
 harming others is equivalent to harming myself

 On Wednesday, April 22, 2015, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Poor nominalists...

 Ever what you call science and reason has claimed prevalence over
 religion has been to produce massacres, since 1789 and even before. the
 religion of the ones that wave the flags of science and reason, that
 is, thae ones that claim knowledge without conscience that what they have
 is some kind of faith based on a particular metaphysics. are the most
 dangerous ones.

 These people like you are the ones that the world must fear

 2015-04-22 22:50 GMT+02:00 Dennis Ochei do.infinit...@gmail.com:

 I think you interpretted my words in a different way than I intended. My
 point was merely that theists use motte and bailey tactics, modifying their
 definition of God as soon as you start tightening the screws. If you cut
 off one head the theist will confabulate a new one for their religious
 belief. People say science cannot kill religion. But I say that science has
 killed religion countless times, and continues to do so. But religion rises
 again from its ashes, generally more benign than before.


 Once we have dispelled illusions, the religion that emerges then will be
 beautiful. But until that time most instances of religion are things that
 reason and empiricism must put down to perfect.


 On Wednesday, April 22, 2015, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:

 Dennis:

 *God always means something just shy of disproven and always fills the
 gaps of understanding ...*

 I don't need to disprove something that has not been proven - or at
 least described as possible. BTW: nothing can be 'proven' except for
 ignorance.
 To keep pace with the unfathomable Everything (not the restricted
 physical topic-content of this list) the flexibility of the human
 (ignorant) mind requires a 'creator', a 'sustainer' a BOSS like a king
 for a country. That is called 'GOD'.
 You may believe (in) it. Know you cannot. So there is no way to
 disprove.
 Sometimes 'God' fills the gaps of misunderstanding (ignorance) as well.

 I don't believe that going back to more primitive times (less facts
 included into our worldview) even the smartest(?) minds could LEAD our
 ignorance to better wisdom. Aristotle's 'total' (in my pun: the Aris -
 Total) was MORE than the sum of HIS counted ingredients, which included
 only the listable material parts. Then we have learned about functions,
 attributes, connections, variants, variations etc. and added lots of
 includable 'parts' to the total.
 Plato did not even pretend to visualize the 'world': he imagined a
 SHADOW of it on the wall as our percept of reality(?), situated BEHIND us
 (=invisibly).

 I esteem Bruno's ideas - am no mathematician - can rarely follow them,
 yet I never got a reply to my question about what are the NUMBERS from
 him.
 I consider 'computation' as (Lat) com (cum) - putare (thinking), mind's
 work, to add 2 and 2 together, definitely not restricted to the numberical
 terms

Re: God

2015-04-22 Thread Alberto G. Corona

Poor nominalists...

Ever what you call science and reason has claimed prevalence over
religion has been to produce massacres, since 1789 and even before. the
religion of the ones that wave the flags of science and reason, that
is, thae ones that claim knowledge without conscience that what they have
is some kind of faith based on a particular metaphysics. are the most
dangerous ones.

These people like you are the ones that the world must fear

2015-04-22 22:50 GMT+02:00 Dennis Ochei do.infinit...@gmail.com:

 I think you interpretted my words in a different way than I intended. My
 point was merely that theists use motte and bailey tactics, modifying their
 definition of God as soon as you start tightening the screws. If you cut
 off one head the theist will confabulate a new one for their religious
 belief. People say science cannot kill religion. But I say that science has
 killed religion countless times, and continues to do so. But religion rises
 again from its ashes, generally more benign than before.


 Once we have dispelled illusions, the religion that emerges then will be
 beautiful. But until that time most instances of religion are things that
 reason and empiricism must put down to perfect.


 On Wednesday, April 22, 2015, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:

 Dennis:

 *God always means something just shy of disproven and always fills the
 gaps of understanding ...*

 I don't need to disprove something that has not been proven - or at
 least described as possible. BTW: nothing can be 'proven' except for
 ignorance.
 To keep pace with the unfathomable Everything (not the restricted
 physical topic-content of this list) the flexibility of the human
 (ignorant) mind requires a 'creator', a 'sustainer' a BOSS like a king
 for a country. That is called 'GOD'.
 You may believe (in) it. Know you cannot. So there is no way to disprove.
 Sometimes 'God' fills the gaps of misunderstanding (ignorance) as well.

 I don't believe that going back to more primitive times (less facts
 included into our worldview) even the smartest(?) minds could LEAD our
 ignorance to better wisdom. Aristotle's 'total' (in my pun: the Aris -
 Total) was MORE than the sum of HIS counted ingredients, which included
 only the listable material parts. Then we have learned about functions,
 attributes, connections, variants, variations etc. and added lots of
 includable 'parts' to the total.
 Plato did not even pretend to visualize the 'world': he imagined a SHADOW
 of it on the wall as our percept of reality(?), situated BEHIND us
 (=invisibly).

 I esteem Bruno's ideas - am no mathematician - can rarely follow them,
 yet I never got a reply to my question about what are the NUMBERS from
 him.
 I consider 'computation' as (Lat) com (cum) - putare (thinking), mind's
 work, to add 2 and 2 together, definitely not restricted to the numberical
 terms. It may be also to add an animal, or plant to an environment. Real,
 or fake.

 Since the early 90s I participated on more than a dozen discussion lists,
 this one has exciting and lesser exciting posts and posters.

 Best regards
 John Mikes

 On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 8:29 PM, Dennis Ochei do.infinit...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 I'm not gonna lie, i find this exchange rather entertaining. I dont know
 what side I'd pick, but I will say I've never been 100% clear on what Bruno
 meant by Aristotelian or Platonist before now. What does Bruno do with
 personal pronouns? I have to agree that at least some of Bruno's written
 correspondence is hard to follow, but esotericism is par for the course in
 philosophy anyway...

 God always means something just shy of disproven and always fills the
 gaps of understanding

 On Tuesday, April 21, 2015, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 , LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

  In order to participate in a forum like this you need to accept that
 certain shorthands are commonly used.


 None of Bruno's shorthands or acronyms are commonly used, they are used
 on this list and nowhere else. And even here they are not used with any
 rational consistency. And then Bruno uses common words in very uncommon
 ways; I still don't know what the word God means in Brunospeak. And don't
 get me started on personal pronouns!

  For example Aristotelian just means anyone who assumes primary
 materialism


 OK so now I know that in Bruno's Humpty-Dumpty dictionary a materialist
 is someone who doesn't even pretend to know if mathematics begat physics or
 physics begat mathematics.


  Bruno shouldn't need to have to constantly explain what he means by
 these terms.


 No, he needs to do exactly that. Bruno insists on using the Humpty-Dumpty
 dictionary and he has the only copy, so he needs to constantly explain what
 the hell he means; either that or throw away the Humpty-Dumpty
 dictionary.

   John K Clark





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Re: Interesting speculation: Could an advanced industrial civilization emerge again from a post-collapse earth?

2015-04-22 Thread Alberto G. Corona

I do not read this thread in detail but the people among you that do not
understand that the reduction of workforce in agriculture to marginal
levels while increasing many times the production has not been due to
mechanical and crop engineering... you people have a serious problem
understanding the reality, or merely, perceiving it. Maybe you have a
problem in the synapstic connections form the senses to the brain
interrupted by some kind of autonomous module that produces arbitrary
histories.

2015-04-22 6:57 GMT+02:00 LizR lizj...@gmail.com:

 Technology has revolutionised farming in Africa in the last ten years,
 thanks to the advent of mobile phones. This means farmers can know what to
 take to market, when to take it, and so on.

 (But I*'m n*ot sure what socialism has to do with any of this, especially
 not your version of it. There has always been a certain amount of socialism
 involved in peasant farming, but so what? It's natural for people to help
 people they are related to, and sometimes others as well.)

 On 22 April 2015 at 14:51, spudboy100 via Everything List 
 everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

 When I think of africa and farming, I think poverty. I think hunger, but
 maybe I am wrong? Therefore, I look to technology as the best answer to
 nearly all troubles, and perhaps this is wrong as well? So the 400 year old
 concept of hydroponics, and greenhouse farming seems a good bet, and a good
 bet that would fill bellies, while sparing the land, and allowing wild life
 to flourish. I don't view socialism as an answer since it cuts wealth from
 being developed, so the idea of distributing an ever shrinking pie becomes
 ever problematical, plus, socialism seems ever more corrupt. Look at the
 goings on by the Clintons, for a real world example. Anymore, crony
 capitalist oligarchs run everything, so what's a serf to do?

 Sent from AOL Mobile Mail


 -Original Message-
 From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Tue, Apr 21, 2015 10:38 PM
 Subject: Re: Interesting speculation: Could an advanced industrial
 civilization emerge again from a post-collapse earth?


  I didn't say they didn't cut down forests, just that not being idiots,
 they kept the land viable (or at least tried to). And they did it without
 modern fertilisers, obviously - by crop rotation and so on.
 My point about Ridley's agenda is that it has caused him to espouse views
 that appear inaccurate. That is, there is obviously a hierarchy of needs,
 but it isn't as he's portraying it.

  Yes I don't buy the noble savage or steward of the land of captain of
 industry crap either, but that doesn't automagically make the guy with the
 right wing agenda right by default. Things are generally a bit more
 complex.

  You're getting lots of money from the police? :)


  On 22 April 2015 at 14:22, spudboy100 via Everything List 
 everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

 Ridley has a political agenda? I have a political agenda! But that does
 not matter because I am just a serf. Just remember that the notion of the
 subsistence farmer being the noble steward of the land is false, and if you
 look at European history we see the practice of assarting used for
 centuries, which is extending one's land but cutting away the forests. If
 we are doing greenhouse cultivation, then we'd 99% less land use by the
 grower. Ridley must be correct in that money drives human behavior, and
 thus, psychology. My question would be, what needs to be developed before X
 crosses Y in greenhouse agriculture, in solar, in whatever??? Being a
 rather ignoble serf, me do not know and must leave the answers to the manor
 born. Now back to milking the pigs.

 Sent from AOL Mobile Mail


 -Original Message-
 From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Tue, Apr 21, 2015 10:07 PM
 Subject: Re: Interesting speculation: Could an advanced industrial
 civilization emerge again from a post-collapse earth?


 On 22 April 2015 at 10:38, spudboy100 via Everything List 
 everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

 Riddley is correct. When people have their lower rungs satisfied, as in
 abe maslow's hierarchy of needs, then environment use becomes important-
 but not if you need fire wood to live.


  Subsistence farmers will try to make sure they have food every year,
 and that means being environmentalists. If there's a free lunch invovled
 *then* you get the tragedy of the commons, but not beforehand. (PS I
 think you'll find Matt Ridley has a political agenda if I remember rightly,
 which comes across rather clearly here.)


 Also, do not ignore improvements in the knowledge we already know-rather
 than rely on breakthroughs.(I am paraphrasing Gerard O'Neil). Think of some
 collection of tech that makes greenhouse agriculture cheaper then out door
 agriculture-something like this. All of a sudden land use goes down 99% for
 agriculture. Or, as has been

Re: God

2015-04-22 Thread Alberto G. Corona

Bruno,
I´m convinced that you are a larouchist:

http://laroucheplanet.info/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Cult.PlatoAristotle

I agree in that there are two sides depending on if they value the mind or
the matter as the primary thing. I also line up with the mind side, but
Aristotle has little to do in this battle. Really the battle was initiated
in the XII century with the nominalists.

Larouche says that nominalism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominalismis a
extreme Aristotelism. It is not. It is the negation of platonism and
aristotelism both of them. And I agree that it is the methaphisics behind
the modern science and the modern world in general.

2015-04-21 17:37 GMT+02:00 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be:


 On 16 Apr 2015, at 19:48, John Clark wrote:

 On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 10:23 PM, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au
  wrote:

  We are entering the realm of the Humpty-Dumpty dictionary -- words no
 longer have their ordinary, everyday meaning.


 Yes. According to Bruno the words atheist and Christian mean almost
 the same thing with atheism being just a very minor variation of
 Christianity.


 They have the same notion of the creator, and the same notion of creation.
 And they have the same belief in creation.



 And the word God means a unintelligent non-conscious amorphous
 impersonal blob


 You attribute me things that I have never said.


 that doesn't answer prayers and in fact doesn't do much of anything at
 all, nevertheless according to Bruno God exists and is very important for
 reasons never made clear.



 I use God in the sense of Parmenides, Plato (who introduced the term
 theology), Plotinus, Proclus and many others, even the wiki. Only
 fundamentalist aristotelians have a problem with Plato's notion of God.

 See the previous posts on this, by me and Jason Resch, and answer them
 instead, of making distracting rhetorics and false insinuations.

 You would have mocked the greek sciences just by saying that they are
 ridiculous because they use the word number (= numerous) for one and two.

 The advantage of defining God by the true reason of your consciousness
 here and now, is that it helps to see that physics is not a theology, and
 that a theory of truth is not a theology, but that physicalism is a
 theology, and that the theory God = (Arithmetical) Truth is a theology.

 It helps also to remind us that what most call God today has been imposed
 through violence, exil, torture, etc.

 For the greeks, theology is the theory of everything, which seeks to
 justify and unify all branches of knowledge.

 Is God a blob or an intelligent person? Open problem with
 computationalism. Open problem too with Plotinus, actually.

 Bruno


 And free will means... well it means noise shaped air as near as I can
 tell.







   John K Clark





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 http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: Interesting speculation: Could an advanced industrial civilization emerge again from a post-collapse earth?

2015-04-21 Thread Alberto G. Corona

Then to hell with the land! You can't keep 7 billion people alive, much
less happy, without both artificial fertilizer and monoculture. And that is
what I mean when I say that modern environmentalists are not serious
people.

They are not serious, but they are not kidding. In fact they are totally
crazy. Plainly speaking. They want to eliminate people. And I´m not
talking about these freaky dumb greens with their colourful dressings. I
talk about very powerful people, companies and public institutions. The
same ones that promote warmist apocalypticism. Read some documents of the
UN for example.

2015-04-21 19:17 GMT+02:00 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List
everything-list@googlegroups.com:

*From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:
everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *John Clark
*Sent:* Monday, April 20, 2015 7:19 PM
*To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com
*Subject:* Re: Interesting speculation: Could an advanced industrial
civilization emerge again from a post-collapse earth?

On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

I side with Matt Ridley where the wealthier people are, the more
concerned about the environment.they become.

You'd think they would, if they were rational, but I haven't yet seen
any evidence for this. Plenty for the reverse, unfortunately.

Don't be ridiculous, upper middle class kids in western countries form thr
core of the modern environmental movement. A subsistence farmer with
children on the verge of starvation doesn't have the luxury of
contemplating the beauty of recycling or the evils of deforestation.

The better the technology, the better easier it is on the land.

Depends what you mean by better. Artifical fertilisers and so on aren't
better for the land, nor is monoculture

Cornell University disagrees with that statement and has published
comprehensive studies that show that yields from well managed organic farms
are comparable to yileds from intensive chemical input monocrop industrial
agriculture. You can argue about the facts, but you don’t get to choose
what the facts are. Quoting directly from the study “Organic farming
produces the same yields of corn and soybeans as does conventional farming,
but uses 30 percent less energy, less water and no pesticides, a review of
a 22-year farming trial study concludes.” Link to the study:
http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/2005/07/organic-farms-produce-same-yields-conventional-farms

You are engaging in polemic. Making blanket statements – that are not
supported by fact – to then use as a bludgeon to characterize people who
disagree with you. I suggest you read the study; produced by one of our
nation’s preeminent agricultural universities.

I was given the impression that solar usage is currently increasing
exponentially. Have I been misinformed?

Well.. Germany is by far the most aggressive country in perusing solar
electric power and they did this with huge government subsidies to the
solar industry payed for by German taxpayers. And what did the German
taxpayer get for all those billions they payed out? They got 6.5% of the
electricity Germany uses coming from solar and the highest electric rates
in Europe that's what they got.

The installed base of solar PV has been doubling every few years – even as
folks such as John continuously pronounce it dead. Meanwhile in the real
world new capacity is being added at a geometrically growing rate; cost per
unit is also falling again at a geometric rate. In spite of John’s
prognostications the solarization of the global economy is proceeding at a
very rapid pace. John keeps mentioning Germany, most of the newest solar PV
installation for (2013) was added by China and Japan for example. In 2013
an additional 37,000 MW of new solar PV capacity was added to the existing
global capacity bringing it to 136,700 MW of installed capacity (once again
2013 figures)

The per unit cost of price per watt of solar PV capacity has gone from
above $5 per watt in 1995 down to the 2013 price per watt of $0.67; per
unit prices continue to go down.

I prefer data driven arguments. Polemics may make for more sound and fury,
but they lack in substance. The available data supports the premise that
solar PV is on a global growth path and will continue to be on a geometric
growth path for some time to come.

Chris

John K Clark

Re: Where are they?

The amazing thing is how what would happen in 100 trillion years may
preoccupy so seriously to some people that would induce to suicide.
Boltzman committed suicide in part because his own theories of
termodinamical dead of the universe more or less.

Other people are influenced equally hard, but unconsciously by very long
term perspectives that are beyond his own timespan.

And this tells something very important about the human condition: once day
by day survival is solved, people need a meaning. that means that he need
to live in a society with a plan and to work for this plan, which is a kind
of salvation. This is in the constitution of human beings, induced by
evolution if you like, but it is there no doubt. suicide means that the
person think unconsciously that it can not contribute. we are very egoistic
in the short term, but in the long term we are like ants. this is too fast
but I can argue in detail about all of this

2015-04-20 0:04 GMT+02:00 LizR lizj...@gmail.com:

 In my opinion extensive Dysonisation will only occur later in the
 stelliferous era - in the 100 trillion years when the galaxy (and the few
 others still visible in the far distance) glow rose-red from having a
 population exclusively made of stellar remnants and M class dwarfs. At this
 point some species may have made it through the evolutionary heritage
 bottleneck (have conquered the desire to consume endlessly and to wipe out
 rivals, I mean) - plus, it will be a lot more obvious that the universe's
 resources are running low, and conservation is in order.

 Riffing...

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Re: Where are they?

* once day by day survival is solved, people need a meaning.*

That is why modern people put his life at risk in extreme sports and so on:
short term risk evade from existential vacuum.

2015-04-20 12:49 GMT+02:00 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com:

 The amazing thing is how what would happen in 100 trillion years may
 preoccupy so seriously to some people that would induce to suicide.
 Boltzman committed suicide in part because his own theories of
 termodinamical dead of the universe more or less.

 Other people are influenced equally hard, but unconsciously by very long
 term perspectives that are beyond his own timespan.

 And this tells something very important about the human condition: once
 day by day survival is solved, people need a meaning. that means that he
 need to live in a society with a plan and to work for this plan, which is a
 kind of salvation. This is in the constitution of human beings, induced by
 evolution if you like, but it is there no doubt. suicide means that the
 person think unconsciously that it can not contribute. we are very egoistic
 in the short term, but in the long term we are like ants. this is too fast
 but I can argue in detail about all of this

 2015-04-20 0:04 GMT+02:00 LizR lizj...@gmail.com:

 In my opinion extensive Dysonisation will only occur later in the
 stelliferous era - in the 100 trillion years when the galaxy (and the few
 others still visible in the far distance) glow rose-red from having a
 population exclusively made of stellar remnants and M class dwarfs. At this
 point some species may have made it through the evolutionary heritage
 bottleneck (have conquered the desire to consume endlessly and to wipe out
 rivals, I mean) - plus, it will be a lot more obvious that the universe's
 resources are running low, and conservation is in order.

 Riffing...

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Re: Interesting speculation: Could an advanced industrial civilization emerge again from a post-collapse earth?

I also was member of Greenpeace, until I saw how corrupt this people was.
Shortly after the creation, it was infiltrated by the reds. They became
useful idiots. And what happens with people that lie and exaggerate is that
they are the first victims of their own lies.

Now these movements are clubs of dumb freakies.The cold war ended . Now
these puppets of the USSR are being used by some companies to scratch other
companies.

2015-04-20 4:34 GMT+02:00 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com:

 On Sun, Apr 19, 2015  meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

  I don't think achieveability or truth or logic has anything to do with
 it. I think environmentalists tailor their message to scare their target
 audience as much as possible, because without fear they would not have a
 job.


  You mean messages like, Environmentalist just want to take your
 freedom.  Global warming is a hoax


 No, some environmental problems are serious but environmentalists are not
 the ones to solve them because they are no longer serious people, they have
 become very silly people. For example they say that global warming is a
 existential threat but whenever anybody proposes a possible solution that
 is not an even bigger existential threat their response is always exactly
 the same, no no no.

  Environmentalist proudly point to far cleaner air in Southern California
 than in the 1960's.  They cite restriction on CFC's which have restored
 upper atmosphere ozone.  Acidic rain is no longer eroding statues in the
 eastern U.S. because of cap-and-trade passed in the '90s.  In 1952 London
 smog killed 12,000 people - doesn't happen anymore.  In the '50s clothes
 hung out to dry in Pittsburgh would have a black line of soot where they
 draped over the line.


 Those are all good things to be proud of, but those triumphs all happened
 back when environmentalists were serious people and that was a long time
 ago. Believe it or not at one time I called myself a environmentalist, but
 the movement has changed. And I'm not alone in feeling deserted, Patrick
 Moore, one of the co-founders of Greenpeace feels the same way I do.

 At one time Greenpeace was a very smart gutsy organization that harassed
 whaling ships trying to slaughter whales and opposed the French who were
 trying to conduct a huge H-bomb test at Moruroa Atoll in the Pacific. Moore
 was on a ship that was harassing the French while they were setting up the
 test so the French sunk the ship and one Greenpeace member on the ship
 drowned. But not long after that act of courage Greenpeace started to get
 silly and so Moore left. And not long after that the entire environmental
 movement became silly.

  John K Clark






  Never. It's always ALWAYS far more serious, and in fact things are so
 bad its just on the verge of hopeless. But maybe just maybe you still might
 achieve salvation but only if you do exactly what the environmentalist
 tells you to do. And you've got to do it right now or it will be too late.


 The only thing never abates are the lies of the Luddites, exploiters, and
 libertarian fear mongers.

 Brent

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Re: Food for thought

I think that the subjective perception of the amount of information can e
done mathemaically in the future.

Some speculations:

This subjective value can be made objective if we add the subject state to
the equation. Two different subjects perceive different quantities of
information is because they have a different state.

But Living beings have to predict the future in order to take actions:
what will happen?  with the information that they have, This is
essentially an induction problem.

We can modelize the living being as a program that has to solve a single
and lineal problem: what will be the next symbol in a sequence of symbols,
then. This is the setting used by Solomonoff for his theory of inductive
inference.

If we add that the program eats data, that is, receive inputs, we can
define information in a objective way:

the information of some data for a program that solve an induction problem
is the increase of the rate of predictions after consuming this data. So
once the program and the sequence is fixed, the amount of information for
each piece of data is an objective quantity.

This is a completely  external objective measure. obviously if the program
is not made to input and interpret the data in some way then the
information of the data will be 0.  If the data contains the complete
sequence AND it can interpret it as such, then the information of this data
is the maximum  etc.

The increase of the rate of predictions correspond with the reduction of
uncertainty that is related with the shannon entropy. This time the SH is
not applied to the uncertainty about what is the nex sign transmitted
through a channel, but to the uncertainty about the nex sign in a serie.

.

So there are two inputs: the data and the data of the problem to solve.
That is the same in living beings: we use data as information to predict
what will happen next in the input of the senses in order to act.

This model can be refined. the living beings have limitation of resources
and the induction problem never ends until it dies. these limitations means
that a infinite data input is ruled out, and a certain measure of density
of information instead of total amount of information is a better measure.
Shannon did that for codification of messages. This setting can use the
same shannon formulae.

If we intercalate the data in the sequence of symbols that the program must
induce then we have a single input.

So redefined in this new setting, with a single sequence, we can define the
information of a chunk of data received in the sequence as the reduction of
uncertainty in the problem of the prediction the rest of the sequence,
loosely speaking.

There still something weird that is not in the shannon setting: the
program. The shannon problem was to reproduce the message sent at the
other side of the communication link in a noisy channel. in the process of
solving the problem he studied codification of messages by symbols and how
 much information they carried.

In this case, the program learn from the sequence to decrease his
uncertainty for the prediction of the next symbols of the sequence. This
does not happens in the Solomonof neither the shannon case.

So this setting can not be reduced to the one of the two, but it may use
the shannon notion of uncertainty once we discard the problem of
transmission errors.

But the inductive problem is a prerequisite for taking actions from the
data received from the feedback of previous actions trough the senses.
these actions are in order to survive, that is maintain internal order. If
we make proportional the decrease of uncertainty with the success of the
organism, then both reduction of uncertainty and reduction of entropy in
the living being are equivalent, loosely speaking.

Shannon leave the problem of message interpretation out of the study. I put
the interpreter as a program that must predict the next values of the
sequence, Solomonof/Kolmogorov style, so the problem of interpretation is
put inside the black box, it is no longer out of consideration. And there
appears an objective external measure of information for a segment of data
in the sequence: how much better the program predict the rest of the
sequence after receiving this segment.

2015-04-19 19:45 GMT+02:00 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com:

 On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 3:23 AM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  It sems that one image is worth a thousands Shakespeare books.


 Mathematics can tell you how much information something has, but it can't
 tell you how important that information is because that is a function
 of individual personal taste and neither mathematics nor science has
 anything to say about that.

   John K Clark


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Re: Food for thought

2015-04-19 Thread Alberto G. Corona

Current global growth estimates are that every two days, the world is now
creating as much new digital information as all the data ever created from
the dawn of humans through the current century. It has been estimated that
by 2020, the size of the world’s digital universe will be close to 44
trillion gigabytes

Wow!

It sems that one image is worth a thousands Shakespeare books...

Moreover, most of what happens to be information is really disinformation,
not only noise. Most of the output of he media is not only garbage, but
interested manipulation,  conscious or unconscious.

information is anything that reduces the entropy of the receiver. The more
information, the less the entropy. this reduction of entropy is due to a
reduction of uncertainty. that reduction of uncertainty means that with
this information the receiver can plan the future more accurately because
his knowledge of reality is better. His internal agitation is reduced,
danger of being harm is reduced.  I may sweat less, my stress is reduced,
my inmune system will work again and will fight infections. I will take
time to learn, I will lie less, drink less alcohol and will spend less time
wandering in the nigh doing risky things to perpetuate my genes. I will
invest my money instead of consuming it.

That stabilization happens because I know what to do to survive at a longer
timespan so I can do it better. I can help others and others can help
myself or my children by doing efforts that produce results only after
years, decades of even after we passed away

So what is information depends on the receiver. if I receive a document in
chinese that information is 0 for me. If then I receive a rare and excelent
manual on Chinese and I take time to learn chinese and the previous message
is a document that would help me to be millionaire then the information of
the later message is huge, because the first message was a  part of my
reality and under my circumstances I used that information.

Then there are negative information: the one that increase the entropy of
the receiver. it simply can waste my time ot may produce erroneous
decissions, so the sender can do some kind of depredation on me.

2015-04-18 19:24 GMT+02:00 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com:





 *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:
 everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Telmo Menezes
 *Sent:* Saturday, April 18, 2015 12:22 AM
 *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com
 *Subject:* Re: Food for thought







 On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 6:36 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

 On 4/17/2015 11:56 AM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:



 Current global growth estimates are that every two days, the world is now
 creating as much new digital information as all the data ever created from
 the dawn of humans through the current century. It has been estimated that
 by 2020, the size of the world’s digital universe will be close to 44
 trillion gigabytes


 If I take a picture with my smartphone is that counted as creating
 information?



 I suspect it is, but we must remember that not everything that can be
 counted counts.



 What about the masterpiece that nobody ever sees, hears or reads? I am
 sure many great works of thought have been utterly lost and many more have
 never been experienced outside of the brains of their creators. Perhaps
 some fundamental theoretical work is even now languishing in utter
 obscurity. Is this “creating information” or does “creating information”
 depend on it becoming consumed (and entangled with other streams of
 information)?



 Chris



 Telmo.




 Brent

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Re: Interesting speculation: Could an advanced industrial civilization emerge again from a post-collapse earth?

2015-04-18 Thread Alberto G. Corona

How did e.g. the insect societies evolve? Did termites etc. have the
technology to calculte for their habitat-building?

Termites don't smelt steel!

Did they get streamlined into simplicity and we notivced them only as
such, after OUR (mammal-based) civilization evolved (after the demise of
the dinosaur disaster)?

I guess that ants and bees were advanced civilizations that indulged in
minimalism and opted for miniaturization to cope with the problem of energy
and to be in contact with nature.

2015-04-19 1:12 GMT+02:00 LizR lizj...@gmail.com:

We also have last generation bioprocessors which turn waste gases into a
host of useful materials and energy.

On 19 April 2015 at 11:07, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote:

I can't wait for my healthy solar car with pedals.

By the way, In my small town I had a last generation bioprocessor that
converted food waste into meat and saussage.

Below, front view of the device:

http://globe-views.com/dcim/dreams/pig/pig-03.jpg

2015-04-18 20:27 GMT+02:00 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List
everything-list@googlegroups.com:

This may be of interest to some on this list:

This piece speculates on how industrial civilization could
hypothetically reboot on earth, in a post-apocalyptic resource depleted
planet without readily available sources of stored fossil energy. One
interesting factoid I gleaned from reading it (that I was utterly unaware
of) is how the Brazilian steel industry (the 9nth largest ranked producer
in the world) utilizes sustainably produced (for the most part) charcoal to
produce pig iron from iron ore. This article argues that it would be
possible for human civilization to reboot, after a global cataclysmic
collapse, even in the resource depleted environment that would remain.

http://aeon.co/magazine/technology/could-we-reboot-civilisation-without-fossil-fuels/?fb_ref=Default

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Re: Interesting speculation: Could an advanced industrial civilization emerge again from a post-collapse earth?

2015-04-18 Thread Alberto G. Corona

I can't wait for my healthy solar car with pedals.

By the way, In my small town I had a last generation bioprocessor that
converted food waste into meat and saussage.

Below, front view of the device:

http://globe-views.com/dcim/dreams/pig/pig-03.jpg

2015-04-18 20:27 GMT+02:00 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List
everything-list@googlegroups.com:

This may be of interest to some on this list:

This piece speculates on how industrial civilization could hypothetically
reboot on earth, in a post-apocalyptic resource depleted planet without
readily available sources of stored fossil energy. One interesting factoid
I gleaned from reading it (that I was utterly unaware of) is how the
Brazilian steel industry (the 9nth largest ranked producer in the world)
utilizes sustainably produced (for the most part) charcoal to produce pig
iron from iron ore. This article argues that it would be possible for human
civilization to reboot, after a global cataclysmic collapse, even in the
resource depleted environment that would remain.

http://aeon.co/magazine/technology/could-we-reboot-civilisation-without-fossil-fuels/?fb_ref=Default

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Re: Mathematical Self-Reproduction

2015-04-13 Thread Alberto G. Corona

I can say the same : your english is better than average. I heard a few
minutes up to now. Unfortunately I have no time to hear it now.

2015-04-13 15:06 GMT+02:00 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com:

 Thanks Telmo. I have looked only to the 1/3 video.
 I am shocked myself by my accent, and I have discovered that I do oral
 typos now ...


 I hate listening to my own voice recorded, I believe that's very common.
 I think it's easy to understand and gives you character. I have worked
 with many francophones and I can attest that your English is much better
 than average :)



 Could say more, but I have to write a paper in two days (deadline
 tomorrow),

 and I do also the follow-up of the conference on Wednesday.

 My comments on the list might be short, ...

 I will have more time next week (since two month of heavy duties ...).


 I might have some questions by then too.. No hurries.

 Telmo.

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Re: America: Bankrupt Living on Borrowed Time

2015-04-08 Thread Alberto G. Corona

Well, the mixed economy of a central bank that produces arbitrary paper
money and big  oligopolies of regulated, taxed and subsidized companies is
not capitalism, but the mixed , social-democrat economy envisioned by Marx
that would precede socialism,

That is in the Comunist Manifesto, and Keynes copied the Marxian idea word
for word with the same purpose. Keynes defined himself as bolshevik and
ever was. no matter how strange this may sound. The book keynes at
harvard is an enlightening description of who Keynes was and what he and
their fabian friends were after.

The Central bank with fiat money was the dream of Marx and Keynes. They
would be delighted looking at this cartoon: For him and their friends (most
of them working for the URSS) that would mean that communism in America was
near.

2015-04-08 23:34 GMT+02:00 LizR lizj...@gmail.com:

 By the way I agree with the quote - well, banks and monopoly capitalism
 generally tend towards that Monopoly endgame that the West is now deeply
 into, where wealth acquires wealth for no reason to do with the production
 of useful goods or services, but just because it can. The only way to fix
 this is via recognising that wealth is a human invention and may not work
 properly, and replacing it with something else (the government just
 printing lots of money and giving it away would be a short term solution,
 counter-intuitive though it sounds, that could buy us a few decades).

 On 9 April 2015 at 09:30, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

 Wow good cartoon - near the knuckle. Nice to see Mr Monopoly ... and the
 names on the seats aren't exactly necessary... I must save a copy of that!

 On 8 April 2015 at 19:52, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote:

 Thanks Brent!

 On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 2:20 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

  For Telmo.

 Brent


  Forwarded Message 


  Thomas Jefferson is credited with the following sage advice, *“The central
 bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the
 Principles and form of our Constitution. I am an Enemy to all banks
 discounting bills or notes for anything but Coin. If the American People
 allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by
 inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow
 up around them will deprive the People of all their Property until their
 Children will wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered.”* 
 And
 so it seems sometimes the answer is right in front of us all along and we
 just fail to see it.


 http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-04-07/america-bankrupt-and-borrowed-time


  America-wings….
  [image: Americanwings cartoon.jpg]


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Re: America: Bankrupt Living on Borrowed Time

2015-04-08 Thread Alberto G. Corona

Inflation and deflation was precisely one of the mechanism envisioned by
Marx /Keynes deprive people of their properties, so that the state would
acquire all properties without the need to confiscatory laws.

2015-04-08 23:59 GMT+02:00 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com:

 Well, the mixed economy of a central bank that produces arbitrary paper
 money and big  oligopolies of regulated, taxed and subsidized companies is
 not capitalism, but the mixed , social-democrat economy envisioned by Marx
 that would precede socialism,

 That is in the Comunist Manifesto, and Keynes copied the Marxian idea word
 for word with the same purpose. Keynes defined himself as bolshevik and
 ever was. no matter how strange this may sound. The book keynes at
 harvard is an enlightening description of who Keynes was and what he and
 their fabian friends were after.

 The Central bank with fiat money was the dream of Marx and Keynes. They
 would be delighted looking at this cartoon: For him and their friends (most
 of them working for the URSS) that would mean that communism in America was
 near.

 2015-04-08 23:34 GMT+02:00 LizR lizj...@gmail.com:

 By the way I agree with the quote - well, banks and monopoly capitalism
 generally tend towards that Monopoly endgame that the West is now deeply
 into, where wealth acquires wealth for no reason to do with the production
 of useful goods or services, but just because it can. The only way to fix
 this is via recognising that wealth is a human invention and may not work
 properly, and replacing it with something else (the government just
 printing lots of money and giving it away would be a short term solution,
 counter-intuitive though it sounds, that could buy us a few decades).

 On 9 April 2015 at 09:30, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

 Wow good cartoon - near the knuckle. Nice to see Mr Monopoly ... and the
 names on the seats aren't exactly necessary... I must save a copy of that!

 On 8 April 2015 at 19:52, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote:

 Thanks Brent!

 On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 2:20 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

  For Telmo.

 Brent


  Forwarded Message 


  Thomas Jefferson is credited with the following sage advice, *“The 
 central
 bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the
 Principles and form of our Constitution. I am an Enemy to all banks
 discounting bills or notes for anything but Coin. If the American People
 allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by
 inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow
 up around them will deprive the People of all their Property until their
 Children will wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers 
 conquered.”* And
 so it seems sometimes the answer is right in front of us all along and we
 just fail to see it.


 http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-04-07/america-bankrupt-and-borrowed-time


  America-wings….
  [image: Americanwings cartoon.jpg]


  --
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Re: America: Bankrupt Living on Borrowed Time

2015-04-08 Thread Alberto G. Corona

If the state take ownership of the central bank things would even be worse
Inflation would skyrocket for obvious reasons. The problem is the fiat
money, and fiat money is what Keyes and their socialist friends were after.

2015-04-09 0:03 GMT+02:00 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com:

 Inflation and deflation was precisely one of the mechanism envisioned by
 Marx /Keynes deprive people of their properties, so that the state would
 acquire all properties without the need to confiscatory laws.

 2015-04-08 23:59 GMT+02:00 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com:

 Well, the mixed economy of a central bank that produces arbitrary paper
 money and big  oligopolies of regulated, taxed and subsidized companies is
 not capitalism, but the mixed , social-democrat economy envisioned by Marx
 that would precede socialism,

 That is in the Comunist Manifesto, and Keynes copied the Marxian idea
 word for word with the same purpose. Keynes defined himself as bolshevik
 and ever was. no matter how strange this may sound. The book keynes at
 harvard is an enlightening description of who Keynes was and what he and
 their fabian friends were after.

 The Central bank with fiat money was the dream of Marx and Keynes. They
 would be delighted looking at this cartoon: For him and their friends (most
 of them working for the URSS) that would mean that communism in America was
 near.

 2015-04-08 23:34 GMT+02:00 LizR lizj...@gmail.com:

 By the way I agree with the quote - well, banks and monopoly capitalism
 generally tend towards that Monopoly endgame that the West is now deeply
 into, where wealth acquires wealth for no reason to do with the production
 of useful goods or services, but just because it can. The only way to fix
 this is via recognising that wealth is a human invention and may not work
 properly, and replacing it with something else (the government just
 printing lots of money and giving it away would be a short term solution,
 counter-intuitive though it sounds, that could buy us a few decades).

 On 9 April 2015 at 09:30, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

 Wow good cartoon - near the knuckle. Nice to see Mr Monopoly ... and
 the names on the seats aren't exactly necessary... I must save a copy of
 that!

 On 8 April 2015 at 19:52, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote:

 Thanks Brent!

 On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 2:20 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

  For Telmo.

 Brent


  Forwarded Message 


  Thomas Jefferson is credited with the following sage advice, *“The 
 central
 bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the
 Principles and form of our Constitution. I am an Enemy to all banks
 discounting bills or notes for anything but Coin. If the American People
 allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by
 inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will 
 grow
 up around them will deprive the People of all their Property until their
 Children will wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers 
 conquered.”* And
 so it seems sometimes the answer is right in front of us all along and we
 just fail to see it.


 http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-04-07/america-bankrupt-and-borrowed-time


  America-wings….
  [image: Americanwings cartoon.jpg]


  --
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 .
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Re: SETI breakthrough: Project Durin Succeeds!

2015-04-02 Thread Alberto G. Corona

Succeed in what? in getting funds from some public institution, I suppose.

Never saw something more absurd. In Cuba there are some universitary
research on the power of the pyramids. I think that they may have some
success in getting funds for these spheres.

2015-04-02 0:02 GMT+02:00 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net:



 This news has gotten remarkably little coverage.  So for those who
 have not heard:

 Project Ozma failed.  Project Durin succeeded.  It turned out SETI
 (the Search for ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence) was looking in the
 wrong direction all along.  It was looking up when it should have
 been looking down.

 Evolution works much the same everywhere in the universe.  It
 selects for different attributes in different environments, but
 one commonality is that it never selects for extreme patience.

 How long would anyone keep transmitting a few gigawatts at a silent
 planet?  A decade?  A century?  A millennium?  The one serious human
 attempt to send such a message (the Arecibo message) lasted less than
 three minutes, and was never repeated.

 If the phone doesn't answer, you leave a message.

 As Fermi pointed out decades ago, there's nothing special about the
 present age.  A solar system which is just a little older, or in which
 evolution happened just a little more quickly, would result in a race
 millions of years ahead of us.  If they sent signals to Earth, they'd
 get no reply.  If they visited Earth, they'd find nothing more
 advanced than dinosaurs, or perhaps blue-green algae.  And they
 certainly could have visited Earth.  Even at the speed of our current
 spacecraft, it's possible to reach every part of the galaxy on a
 geological time scale.

 That is why Ayeph Dee, professor of exobiology at Frank Drake University,
 had his students come up with a way to leave a message on an Earthlike
 planet that would be detectable and readable for hundreds of millions
 of years.

 They came up with the idea of buried hollow titanium spheres, a few
 meters in diameter, containing tuning forks.  Over the course of ages
 some would come to the surface and be weathered to dust, and others
 would be be subducted to depths at which temperature and pressure
 would destroy them.  But if there were enough of them, and if they
 were carefully placed, some would survive for hundreds of millions
 of years at relatively shallow depths, embedded in bedrock.

 Project Durin, named for the ruler of Tolkien's fictional underground
 land of Moria, consists of a grid of ten thousand broad-spectrum
 microphones embedded in the bedrock of the Canadian Shield.
 Recordings are made available to the SETIunderground@Home distributed
 computing project, whose software turns the array into an acoustic
 version of a passive phased array radar.  It searches the bedrock
 for narrow-band point sources of acoustic energy from tuning forks
 excited by natural seismic activity.

 Such a source was found, approximately 41 kilometers deep, with a
 strong high-Q (~100) resonance at about 14 Hz.  This is consistent
 with a tuning fork inside a hollow sphere, possibly made of titanium
 or tungsten, and possibly filled with oil.  There were also several
 seconds of broad-spectrum noise, which could be from multiple smaller
 tuning forks inside the same sphere.  Dee conjectured that such a set
 of tuning forks could be used to encode a message, based on their
 relative frequencies and their relative locations within the sphere.

 Unfortunately, we don't yet have the technology to excavate anything
 at that depth.  (The deepest borehole ever drilled is just 12
 kilometers.)  This also means that the rock surrounding the sphere
 hasn't been analyzed, so we have no idea of its age, except that it's
 certainly Precambrian, probably at least a billion years old, and
 possibly two or three times that age.

 It's believed that it was originally buried at a shallow depth.  It's
 not known whether this was on land or under an ocean, or whether the
 builders were from our solar system or not.  (Venus and Mars may have
 been much more hospitable to life eons ago.)  It's even possible that
 it was constructed by an indigenous terrestrial sapient race, though
 it's hard to imagine it would have left no signs of its existence that
 we would have noticed by now.

 The planned next step is to detonate several embedded explosives, one
 at a time, in various locations, as a form of active sonar, to more
 closely locate the sphere.  Once that is done, a large number of
 larger explosives (about 100 of approximately one ton each) will be
 detonated almost simultaneously, such that their shock waves will
 reach the sphere simultaneously from multiple directions, to excite
 a strong and sharp resonance of all the tuning forks.

 Searches for additional spheres elsewhere on Earth are encouraged.

 Project Durin is always open to suggestions.



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Re: [SPAM]Re: Economic inequality

I don´t believe in anything that SCIAM says except in hard sciences. And
event in that I have my doubts
These kind of publications lost their credibility time ago. Well, and many
pseudoscience departments
in the universities. They are nothing but propaganda organs driven by power
and money

Well not directly power and money, but leftist fanatism as a cover for the
seek of power and money.

2015-04-01 7:56 GMT+02:00 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List
everything-list@googlegroups.com:

*From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:
everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *meekerdb
*Sent:* Tuesday, March 31, 2015 9:26 PM
*To:* EveryThing
*Subject:* [SPAM]Re: Economic inequality

The SciAm article doesn't even begin to describe how great the inequality
is. Like most statistical presentations it divides the population into
quintiles. But that hides the fact that is not the to 20 to 1 percentile
that hold the wealth, it is the tope 1% and even just the top 0.1%

And that graph describes the source of so many of our social ills; this
high degree of income distortion -- in terms of the US being an outlier, on
the global distribution of developed economies -- is the fundamental driver
of pretty much everything else going wrong with this country; from
crumbling infrastructure, to crumbling education, to crumbling living
standards. Could this be what life is like in a crumbling empire, far out
into imperial overreach, stretched thin across the globe, in the vast
archipelago of bases – including places of true logistical nightmare, like
Afghanistan (the logistical nightmare of nightmares…there is no feasible
way to get the heavy armor out of Afghanistan, except through Russia, with
Pakistan definitely not wanting mass transiting US armor.

The cost of bearing empire is breaking our backs, and with each successive
cycle of disaster capitalism – creative destruction, right-sizing,
out-sourcing etc. the empire is in a race to scraping bottom, as all
empires do. Inside the bubble of power the mantra remains “we make history”
(as once boasted by one famous neocon), but on the ground it is not all
going as planned… though who is going to ever bring the emperor the bad
news… any volunteers? Naturally we don’t have an emperor (yet), but we do
have a powerful deeply rooted patrician aristocracy that has been ascendant
here for the last four decades.

Will it swing back the other way, as it has in the past – such as with the
New Deal, or earlier with Teddy Roosevelt’s trust busting of Standard Oil;
or is this just the prelude to… welcome to tomorrow?

Chris

http://www.voxeu.org/article/exploding-wealth-inequality-united-states

Brent

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/economic-inequality-it-s-far-worse-than-you-think/

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Re: Are all terrorrists Muslim? Not even close!

And, by the way, all the Cuban sponsored terrorism is an itellectual
product of the aggresive secularistic fanaticism incubated in the western
universities, with a marxist of post-marxist background (it is the same).
This is the fanaticism from which bot of you are victims.

There is also a great deal of marxist background in the new islamism. The
leaders of islamic terrorism were educated in western universities. Many of
the 70-80 terrorists groups were socialists-islamists in a inextricable
mix. In the 90's the defeat of your loved socialist utopia, and the lack of
funds support and ideology from the soviet empire changed the labeling of
these islamo-socialist groups towards pure islamism.

There are great parallels between the left utopianism and islam, And a even
stronger similarity between their respective violent branches: leninism and
islamism. Both are political religions of different degrees of fanaticism

2015-04-01 10:53 GMT+02:00 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com:

All these movements are in the orbit of Cuba and Venezuela as well as with
ties with islamism. The basque terrorists in the 70s trained together with
the Palestinian terrorists LPO (in the valley of the Becca) and with
argelian communists.

Please be informed.

In the other side nobody says that all the terrorists are Muslims. You
both may be a little off of reality guys. What children literature do you
read?.

There are alaso a great number of extreme left terrorist that has
diminished since the defeat of the USSR. But there remain a lot of
nostalgics of that era that populate the centers of power. And even the
discussion lists.

2015-04-01 0:06 GMT+02:00 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List
everything-list@googlegroups.com:

--
*From:* John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com
*To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com
*Sent:* Tuesday, March 31, 2015 3:01 PM
*Subject:* Re: Are all terrorrists Muslim? Not even close!

On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 'Chris de Morsella' wrote:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/14/are-all-terrorists-muslims-it-s-not-even-close.html

“Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims.” How
many times have you heard that one?

Once.

Why don’t we see Christian, Buddhist, or Jewish terrorists?

We do. Religion poisons everything.

No argument form me on that point. However a really surprising quantity
of terrorist acts (at least in Europe) are from one of the many separatist
militant groups operating in that continent, in such places such as
Corsica, the Basque regions etc. Places that have become folded into one
nation state or another with which they do not much get along.
Chris

John K Clark

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Re: Are all terrorrists Muslim? Not even close!

Please be informed.

In the other side nobody says that all the terrorists are Muslims. You both
may be a little off of reality guys. What children literature do you read?.

2015-04-01 0:06 GMT+02:00 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List
everything-list@googlegroups.com:

--
*From:* John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com
*To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com
*Sent:* Tuesday, March 31, 2015 3:01 PM
*Subject:* Re: Are all terrorrists Muslim? Not even close!

On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 'Chris de Morsella' wrote:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/14/are-all-terrorists-muslims-it-s-not-even-close.html

“Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims.” How
many times have you heard that one?

Once.

Why don’t we see Christian, Buddhist, or Jewish terrorists?

We do. Religion poisons everything.

No argument form me on that point. However a really surprising quantity of
terrorist acts (at least in Europe) are from one of the many separatist
militant groups operating in that continent, in such places such as
Corsica, the Basque regions etc. Places that have become folded into one
nation state or another with which they do not much get along.
Chris

John K Clark

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Re: Global Warming Hoax Confirmed

here comes the sun in the spring and here comes the warmist guys again

2015-04-01 22:38 GMT+02:00 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net:


  Forwarded Message 
 Remember all that stuff we told you about 97% of scientists agreeing that
 climate change was real? And all those sad polar bears hanging off of
 icebergs? And all the dire warnings about catastrophic sea-level rise?

 We just learned that none of it is true. It was all a huge prank pulled
 off by the world’s scientists. Senator Inhofe was right. Watch this video
 and learn the unvarnished truth about the climate change hoax



 https://nextgenclimate.org/hotseat/?utm_medium=emailutm_
 source=ThinkProgressutm_campaign=SPEM-AFD-video

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Re: Life in the Islamic State for women

2015-03-26 Thread Alberto G. Corona

spudboy.
Well said.

Indeed, there are a massive change in vote from the extreme left to
nationalism in countries like France, out of Fear of Islam based on direct
personal experiences. (In France the islam is something that you watch
everyday even if you have the TV switched off).

The problem is that the natural path of these deculturalized and hedonistic
leftists that had a sudden encounter with reality is a form of fascism
that is an equally denaturalized and simplistic vision of reality, based on
a ideological reverie, instead of a return to common sense, tradition and
prudence. The fascism of the 30s was created by extreme leftists. Indeed
all these antireligious idiots (sorry, this is descriptive, no demoting
intended) that consider all religions equally dangerous are right in the
delusional process that lean to the rediscovery of Fascism.



2015-03-26 12:04 GMT+01:00 spudboy100 via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com:

 Well, its not the new jihadists I blame, but the (yes) leftist academics,
 politicians, and news thugs, that have long, empowered, and made excuses
 for these aggressors. My suspicion is that they see the jihadists worldwide
 as being able to topple their shared capitalist enemies.  Why else would
 somebody make excuses, constantly, for jihadists, islamists, and their
 antidemocratic mindset, anti women, and so forth? The left in all lands
 serve as the Islamist enablers, and some are billionaires who lean left.
 Yeah, I know this is divisive, but it's sadly, accurate. Maybe, you left
 voters could start to vote for nationalist politicians in your countries as
 a push-back against the jihadist-catering pols, academics, and newsies? You
 could still be for social justice and spend for it, but coddling the
 islamists by word and deed would need to be suppressed. They do like modern
 weaponry, delivered into their hands by allah, to use against the Qufars
 (all of us). This now includes NBC weapons.



 -Original Message-
 From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Thu, Mar 26, 2015 3:49 am
 Subject: Re: Life in the Islamic State for women

  I don´t know what to choose either the civilization of the horde of
 cavemen or the set of pseudo enlightened idiots that renegate of everything
 except themselves, that defecate over their ancestors and judge the world
 from the stratosphere in which they live, with little or no knowledge,
 maybe some mathematics, Each one a civilization on itself.

  2015-03-26 7:47 GMT+01:00 Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au:

  On 26 Mar 2015, at 2:21 pm, LizR  lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

   http://www.raqqa-sl.com/en/?p=857


  So most of these women are Brits? WTF! Makes your blood run cold. People
 are turning into zombies left right and centre. There is absolutely nothing
 whatsoever in organised religion for women. This whole conflict is a boys'
 club tribal thing. Women are necessary to the tribe because a good metric
 of any tribe's success is the number of willing female participants. Just
 ask Ghengis Kahn. Just ask the Christians; they have women dress in
 form-obscuring vetements as well; they are called nuns and presumably
 they lie around all day having erotic fantasies about being loved
 conveniently by Jesus without all the messy boy stuff that goes with sex.

  But I do think by now that that slew of apocalyptic zombie movies that
 the world passed through recently was some kind of cultural dream or
 clairvoyant nightmare about this ISIS-led zombie apocalypse we now appear
 to be heading for. You like that? Beheading for..

  We had one young bloke here in Oz, disappeared recently to Syria to
 fight with IS. Anglo. Good kid with high intelligence apparently. Got
 hooked by the jihad thing. His mates said he had a chip on his shoulder and
 had turned weird. What ISIS offering apparently more convincing than life
 in the burbs of Sydney as a molly-coddled youngster in middle class, white
 supremacist Australia. ISIS said Here comes one! Stick a bomb belt on him
 and send him off to oblivion. Which they did; he detonated it and managed
 to blow up an empty car and himself. Can you be a failure as a Jihadi? This
 kid was.


  Kim
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Re: Life in the Islamic State for women

2015-03-26 Thread Alberto G. Corona

I don´t know what to choose either the civilization of the horde of
cavemen or the set of pseudo enlightened idiots that renegate of everything
except themselves, that defecate over their ancestors and judge the world
from the stratosphere in which they live, with little or no knowledge,
maybe some mathematics, Each one a civilization on itself.

2015-03-26 7:47 GMT+01:00 Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au:

 On 26 Mar 2015, at 2:21 pm, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

 http://www.raqqa-sl.com/en/?p=857


 So most of these women are Brits? WTF! Makes your blood run cold. People
 are turning into zombies left right and centre. There is absolutely nothing
 whatsoever in organised religion for women. This whole conflict is a boys'
 club tribal thing. Women are necessary to the tribe because a good metric
 of any tribe's success is the number of willing female participants. Just
 ask Ghengis Kahn. Just ask the Christians; they have women dress in
 form-obscuring vetements as well; they are called nuns and presumably
 they lie around all day having erotic fantasies about being loved
 conveniently by Jesus without all the messy boy stuff that goes with sex.

 But I do think by now that that slew of apocalyptic zombie movies that the
 world passed through recently was some kind of cultural dream or
 clairvoyant nightmare about this ISIS-led zombie apocalypse we now appear
 to be heading for. You like that? Beheading for..

 We had one young bloke here in Oz, disappeared recently to Syria to fight
 with IS. Anglo. Good kid with high intelligence apparently. Got hooked by
 the jihad thing. His mates said he had a chip on his shoulder and had
 turned weird. What ISIS offering apparently more convincing than life in
 the burbs of Sydney as a molly-coddled youngster in middle class, white
 supremacist Australia. ISIS said Here comes one! Stick a bomb belt on him
 and send him off to oblivion. Which they did; he detonated it and managed
 to blow up an empty car and himself. Can you be a failure as a Jihadi? This
 kid was.


 Kim

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Re: TEPCO admits Fukushima Daiichi Unit 1 core completely melted down

2015-03-24 Thread Alberto G. Corona

This book has -abundance- of references, that you may contrast, about who
keynes was and what was his role of this self described as bolshevik,
married with a militant  soviet dancer, who traveled freely trough the USSR
in the middle of the worst red terror and still praising the USSR, whose
friends were, most of them, soviet spies as later was discovered.

http://www.keynesatharvard.org/book/KeynesatHarvard-ch10.html

I said above that the useful idiots, but useful idiots are not only
leftist, there were many many right wing idiots that permitted this state
of things. I would say that there more idiots in the right than in the
left. At least the leftist know what they want.

Concerning the rest, I recommend this set of videos, from a former
propagandist of the Novistik magazine about their budget for infiltration,
disinformation, how to abduce corrupt people (They were unsuccessful with
the working class and later targeted the most corrupt medium-high class of
ANY ideology. They had people working for them in the right)


https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=yuri+bezmenov

2015-03-23 17:48 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com:



 On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 2:27 PM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 The left need some nuclear victim. It is not surprising for me how they
 live from the myths and propaganda of the cold war. No matter that it is no
 longer necessary to stop the West in his advance in nuclear technology to
 help the socialist countries. They still are attached to the myths that the
 soviet propaganda and their fabian puppets created. The block for which the
 useful idiots worked vanished, but who makes the useful idiots to
 understand that?

 The same happens with the gender ideology, created by the Soviets to
 weaken the West. In general all the stupidification ideas in education  the
 socialist leaning economy (keynessianism, invented by Marx 50 years,
  before keynes) the gay agenda,  the violent  black movements, the pacifist
 and finally the ecologists all of them were created  to serve the interest
 of the soviet agenda by people with ties to the socialist motherland.


 It is true that the URSS secretly funded organisations that were
 interested in spreading such ideas in the West. This information has been
 declassified by the CIA. What is not so clear to me is that their strategy
 was of destroying the west by spreading what they deemed to be cultural
 viruses.

 I think a much more likely hypothesis is that they were simply trying to
 infiltrate important demographics (mainly college students) by pandering to
 fashionable causes. Then they could identify susceptible individuals and
 natural leaders and manipulate them into loyalty to the URSS. I think they
 would pretend to support any idea as long as this strategy could be
 furthered. I don't think this has any relevance to the merit of the ideas
 themselves. I don't approve of Keynesianism, for example, but I don't think
 this is a valid argument against Keynesianism.

 For me the gay agenda is a particularly bizarre idea, given that it does
 not seem possible to brainwash a person into homosexuality. Granted, some
 gays might not procreate if they have the option of not living a fake life,
 but what's the point in that? The west is going to collapse by losing 1% of
 its heterosexual couples?



 But the amazing thing is that the main victim of such intended
 stupidification is the left itself, that swallowed their own propaganda.
 The first marxist were educated in traditional families that valorated the
 effort. Gramsci, Marx, Engels were people well versed in philosophy,
 literature, the sciences of their time. Now the mean intellectual leftist
 is a shouting liberal which only care about their feelings and feed his
 hate trying to extend their market of supposed victims of capitalism by an
 ever expanding list of mechanisms: machism, economical exploitation,
 contamination,  anythingphobia etc with no intellectual grounds but his own
 marketing of hate.


 Isn't this true of the average person? Is the average right-winger any
 better, shouting about scripture, racism and creationism?

 Telmo.



 2015-03-23 9:58 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com:



 On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 3:48 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List 
 everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

 I am saying that I don't know if uranium fission can be made safer, and
 cheaper. I also think that part of the cost is waste management. I think
 that natural gas, solar and wind (with Storage) may now be the past of
 least resistance.


 Fair enough. I don't know either, I just have the impression that a lot
 of people who protest nuclear power (and influence political decisions)
 also don't know.

 Telmo.





 -Original Message-
 From: Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Sat, Mar 21, 2015 5:24 pm
 Subject: Re: TEPCO admits Fukushima Daiichi Unit 1 core

Re: TEPCO admits Fukushima Daiichi Unit 1 core completely melted down

2015-03-23 Thread Alberto G. Corona

The left need some nuclear victim. It is not surprising for me how they
live from the myths and propaganda of the cold war. No matter that it is no
longer necessary to stop the West in his advance in nuclear technology to
help the socialist countries. They still are attached to the myths that the
soviet propaganda and their fabian puppets created. The block for which the
useful idiots worked vanished, but who makes the useful idiots to
understand that?

The same happens with the gender ideology, created by the Soviets to weaken
the West. In general all the stupidification ideas in education  the
socialist leaning economy (keynessianism, invented by Marx 50 years,
 before keynes) the gay agenda,  the violent  black movements, the pacifist
and finally the ecologists all of them were created  to serve the interest
of the soviet agenda by people with ties to the socialist motherland.

But the amazing thing is that the main victim of such intended
stupidification is the left itself, that swallowed their own propaganda.
The first marxist were educated in traditional families that valorated the
effort. Gramsci, Marx, Engels were people well versed in philosophy,
literature, the sciences of their time. Now the mean intellectual leftist
is a shouting liberal which only care about their feelings and feed his
hate trying to extend their market of supposed victims of capitalism by an
ever expanding list of mechanisms: machism, economical exploitation,
contamination,  anythingphobia etc with no intellectual grounds but his own
marketing of hate.

2015-03-23 9:58 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com:



 On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 3:48 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List 
 everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

 I am saying that I don't know if uranium fission can be made safer, and
 cheaper. I also think that part of the cost is waste management. I think
 that natural gas, solar and wind (with Storage) may now be the past of
 least resistance.


 Fair enough. I don't know either, I just have the impression that a lot of
 people who protest nuclear power (and influence political decisions) also
 don't know.

 Telmo.





 -Original Message-
 From: Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Sat, Mar 21, 2015 5:24 pm
 Subject: Re: TEPCO admits Fukushima Daiichi Unit 1 core completely melted
 down



  On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 10:08 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net
 wrote:

   On 3/21/2015 9:05 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:

 We can yap about technology but it's all out of our hands. Nuclear
 fission has taken permanent hit because of its cost$. It's not safety that
 halted uranium, but money. In a darwinian fashion, natural gas has
 superseded  uranium, from a cost-price ratio. Could fission or solar
 re-take the hill top any time soon? Will fusion ever be there? Don't know,
 and since I have no power to influence, don't care.


  That's because fossil fuels don't pay for the environmental damage
 they do


  The problem I have with this argument is that it assumes that either:

  a) there is some straightforward way of converting money into
 environmental damage mitigation, or
  b) that the disincentive introduced by making fossil fuels less
 lucrative would lead to their replacement with cleaner technologies.


  and because the exaggerated fear of radiation drives up the cost of
 nuclear power.


  From my limited knowledge nuclear power seems to be the best shot at
 b). I tend to agree with JCK that Fukushima can be taken as a reason to
 trust nuclear power more: a perfect storm of natural disasters struck a
 nuclear power plan based on old technology and still nobody died. But Chris
 claim that the tragic effects may only be detectable in the long term also
 seems reasonable.

  Telmo.



 Brent

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Re: Transgressing the boundaries...

2015-03-21 Thread Alberto G. Corona

It seems that the fabian-gnostic apocalypticist sectarians that kidnapped
Harward are preparing other possible apocalyptic alternatives just in case
the favorite one is not convincing. Note that all the scenarios are due to
the existence of human beings.

2015-03-21 3:45 GMT+01:00 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net:

  On 3/20/2015 6:25 PM,

 ...but not in a good way.

 http://www.sciencemag.org/content/347/6223/1259855.abstract



 That's actually more sanguine that I expected.  I would have estimated
 climate change as high risk (does beyond the zone of uncertainty mean
 certain?).  And I'd have put Freshwater use as increasing risk; but
 maybe that's because I live in California.

 Brent

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Re: Looks like this isn't a spandrell after all

Eh You asked me to explain my position better. If you say that you already
knew that, That is fantastic.

My answer is against the ones that think that something is better than
something other based on some simple factors. And use it to discard as
flawed the process that consider all the factors all the time, such is
natural selection. So their intellect grasp better the reality than the
reality itself.

2015-03-19 21:45 GMT+01:00 LizR lizj...@gmail.com:

 On 20 March 2015 at 09:21, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote:

 LizR:

 My descendants can not develop wings living in mountains, even if wings
 permit us to move faster, this does not mean that natural selection do it
 wrong. Even if there are animals that fly. My descendants will not develop
 wings because my other traits forces to solve the problem of locomotion in
 other different ways. That do not means neither that bipedal locomotion is
 better than flying neither the other way around. flying and non flying
 animals have their benefits and disadvantages.


 Sorry is there a point here? Wings were developed, it seems, by creatures
 that climbed trees and jumped on prey from above, or something similar.
 Either you're restating the obvious (yes evolution acts to better fit
 organisms with their immediate environment, on the whole. Ot doesn't plan
 ahead or try to do anything that would be advantageous in the long term at
 the expense of the short term).


 If a planet of the size of phobos hit the Earth and only survive
 microbial life that does not mean that pluricelular life was a bad
 byproduct of what would be optimal in this context: the evolution of
 microbial life. That reasoning by the side of a intelligent microbial
 entity would be the product of a bias caused by ignorance.


 ??? You seem hung up on what is bad or good evolution doesn't have
 those categories (except in a colloquial sense).


 simply speaking, products of evolution can not be compared. Neither a
 design can be compared against an absolute scale of perfection,, neither
 exist a perfect model towards which the evolution evolve. neither can be
 the criteria something like simplicity nor complexity. Neither if the
 design optimize this or that . It is the entire genotype of the animal what
 is tested against the environment. And that trait will be inherited by the
 descendants,so it should be effective  for 600 millions years in different
 ambients and circumstances and phenotypes, like the vertebrate eye.


 OK I think you are, very slowly and painfully, repeating what I said to
 start with in about 100x as many words.


 The  scientific reasoning must be the opposite: why is the vertebrate eye
 so successful? The opposite, to assume an ideal based on simplicity, or in
 something that optimize certain parameter, ignoring the infinite other
 factors and circumstances of that are present in a pervasive process
 extended in space and time such is natural selections is an engineer
 (leftist) point of view that is not scientific, but  something in the
 tradition of the idealistic rationalism in the Hegelian sense:  All that I
 imagine that is rational must be real and true. This  point of view is
 closed to learning new knowledge and thus, anti-scientific

 To sum up, your argument is:

 Shame on you Liz for suggesting that evolution could ever do something
 which wasn't an optimal solution, but instead hit a suboptimal peak in the
 fitness landscape.

 ...apparently because of some ideological gobbledegook to do with Hegel?

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Re: Looks like this isn't a spandrell after all

good or bad for what circunstances and for what unit of evolution in what
amount of time? . If I say sexual reproduction is bad, because, mitosis is
a delicate process that may fail and produce many problems. cloning is
better because it is simpler. therefore natural selection do it wrong

obviously that is the simplistic reasoning of an ignorant. The correct
scientific attitude is to keep studying why sexual reproduction is worth
for natural selection.  And this is also an open question.

In the same way a design , like natural selection or the eye is something
for which particular circunstances can not reverse it. For example if an
specie live in an ambient with a lot of radiation, it may be true that
cloning would be the best way to reproduce for a million year (until the
species get extinct due to other effects) but this does not mean that
sexual reproduction is wrong in any way. It should be better to develop
some secundary defenses against mutations, and when the species ambient
change, It can continue enjoying the advantages of sexual reproduction.


In the same way, that when some specie becomes nocturnal for some million
years, maybe the eye of the octopus  would have been nicer in that
circunstances . So what? if this is good for most of their genera and for
most of the existence of that clade?

Moreover, the vertebrate eye is able to move better (think it the eye of
the chameleon) and thus to focus and point better with less sensitive cells.

By the way I have to go to work. Look I don´t develop wings!. How much
better would have been t fly to my work.  Thar proves that natural
selection do it wrong.


2015-03-19 4:51 GMT+01:00 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net:

 On 3/18/2015 5:08 PM, LizR wrote:

 Damn it, I've often cited this as an example of unintelligent design and
 now the creationists get the last laugh. Oh well that's science!

 http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-purpose-of-
 our-eyes-strange-wiring-is-unveiled


 I don't think you need to rush to change your examples just yet. This
 sounds more like development of the glial cells to compensate for the
 initial bad design that put the receptors on the back side of the retina.
 The authors say it helps color vision during the day without hurting night
 (non-color) vision too much.  But many vertebrates don't even have color
 vision.  Are their eyes wired the other way around...No.  Do they have the
 same glial cell disposition?  And if the color receptors were in on the
 front side of the retina then they wouldn't need sequences of glial cells
 to guide the photons to them.

 Brent


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Re: Looks like this isn't a spandrell after all

LizR:

My descendants can not develop wings living in mountains, even if wings
permit us to move faster, this does not mean that natural selection do it
wrong. Even if there are animals that fly. My descendants will not develop
wings because my other traits forces to solve the problem of locomotion in
other different ways. That do not means neither that bipedal locomotion is
better than flying neither the other way around. flying and non flying
animals have their benefits and disadvantages.

If a planet of the size of phobos hit the Earth and only survive microbial
life that does not mean that pluricelular life was a bad byproduct of what
would be optimal in this context: the evolution of microbial life. That
reasoning by the side of a intelligent microbial entity would be the
product of a bias caused by ignorance.

simply speaking, products of evolution can not be compared. Neither a
design can be compared against an absolute scale of perfection,, neither
exist a perfect model towards which the evolution evolve. neither can be
the criteria something like simplicity nor complexity. Neither if the
design optimize this or that . It is the entire genotype of the animal what
is tested against the environment. And that trait will be inherited by the
descendants,so it should be effective  for 600 millions years in different
ambients and circumstances and phenotypes, like the vertebrate eye.

The  scientific reasoning must be the opposite: why is the vertebrate eye
so successful? The opposite, to assume an ideal based on simplicity, or in
something that optimize certain parameter, ignoring the infinite other
factors and circumstances of that are present in a pervasive process
extended in space and time such is natural selections is an engineer
(leftist) point of view that is not scientific, but  something in the
tradition of the idealistic rationalism in the Hegelian sense:  All that I
imagine that is rational must be real and true. This  point of view is
closed to learning new knowledge and thus, anti-scientific




2015-03-19 19:55 GMT+01:00 LizR lizj...@gmail.com:

 As far as I know evolutionary advantage means favouring the replication
 of a specific trait (or the genes underlying it) over competing traits. The
 simplistic reasoning of an ignorant is the reasoning of Charles Darwin
 and Richard Dawkins - that evolution acts on the individual in the first
 case, and genes (or gene clusters - or whatever produces traits on which
 evolution can get some traction) - in the latter. I don't follow everything
 you said but it looks like you're arguing for some sort of group selection?
 Maybe you could make your ideas a bit clearer. This in answer to post 1.

 Post 2 - Darwin focused on the long term effects of the process - he
 wanted to explain how organisms developed over many generations. Not sure
 about the ideological bias, please explain further.

 Sorry I have to go now - to work in fact! Must fly :-)

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Re: Looks like this isn't a spandrell after all

By the way number 2:  The theory of evolution is the most biased name for
natural selection. Theory of tradition would have been a better name by
far. Since practically 100% of the traits are inherited from generation to
generation

Theory of evolution is not only biased, but ideologically biased to hide
this fact

2015-03-19 15:29 GMT+01:00 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com:

 good or bad for what circunstances and for what unit of evolution in what
 amount of time? . If I say sexual reproduction is bad, because, mitosis is
 a delicate process that may fail and produce many problems. cloning is
 better because it is simpler. therefore natural selection do it wrong

 obviously that is the simplistic reasoning of an ignorant. The correct
 scientific attitude is to keep studying why sexual reproduction is worth
 for natural selection.  And this is also an open question.

 In the same way a design , like natural selection or the eye is something
 for which particular circunstances can not reverse it. For example if an
 specie live in an ambient with a lot of radiation, it may be true that
 cloning would be the best way to reproduce for a million year (until the
 species get extinct due to other effects) but this does not mean that
 sexual reproduction is wrong in any way. It should be better to develop
 some secundary defenses against mutations, and when the species ambient
 change, It can continue enjoying the advantages of sexual reproduction.


 In the same way, that when some specie becomes nocturnal for some million
 years, maybe the eye of the octopus  would have been nicer in that
 circunstances . So what? if this is good for most of their genera and for
 most of the existence of that clade?

 Moreover, the vertebrate eye is able to move better (think it the eye of
 the chameleon) and thus to focus and point better with less sensitive cells.

 By the way I have to go to work. Look I don´t develop wings!. How much
 better would have been t fly to my work.  Thar proves that natural
 selection do it wrong.


 2015-03-19 4:51 GMT+01:00 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net:

 On 3/18/2015 5:08 PM, LizR wrote:

 Damn it, I've often cited this as an example of unintelligent design and
 now the creationists get the last laugh. Oh well that's science!

 http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-purpose-of-
 our-eyes-strange-wiring-is-unveiled


 I don't think you need to rush to change your examples just yet. This
 sounds more like development of the glial cells to compensate for the
 initial bad design that put the receptors on the back side of the retina.
 The authors say it helps color vision during the day without hurting night
 (non-color) vision too much.  But many vertebrates don't even have color
 vision.  Are their eyes wired the other way around...No.  Do they have the
 same glial cell disposition?  And if the color receptors were in on the
 front side of the retina then they wouldn't need sequences of glial cells
 to guide the photons to them.

 Brent


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Re: The world's most environmentally friendly car

2015-03-14 Thread Alberto G. Corona

I don´t know what you mean for the most of what you wrote, but  jokes
are not forbidden in serious discussion. Simply, jokes do not apply
when the discussion is serious.

But when someone says ridicule or absurd things seriously, that indeed
is the most powerful source of humour known. Then there is no joke
necessary. the joke is the ridiculous sectarian being as it is.

2015-03-14 4:38 GMT+01:00, PGC multiplecit...@gmail.com:


 On Friday, March 13, 2015 at 9:58:10 PM UTC+1, Alberto G.Corona wrote:

 Humor is destructive for sectarians.


 Especially for the admittedly special case of the humor sectarians though;
 i.e. people or machines who appear to know what is funny or not in some
 situation.

 Those are the worst sort as they approach others with ambiguous statements
 where people don't know and ask themselves is this person being funny or
 aggressive or what?

 These fascists of humor think that they always get away with their little
 tricks of consistency of inconsistency. How about inconsistency of what is
 expected consistent though?

 Jokes are forbidden in serious discussion, but only because I command it
 authoritatively though now and here: No more joking here!

 Or else... PGC

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Re: The world's most environmentally friendly car

2015-03-13 Thread Alberto G. Corona

Humor is destructive for sectarians. Humor is connected with a deep
common sense of what is ridiculous and ridiculous is anything whose
claims are  against reality. It connects immediately with the inner
sense of any other person. There is only two  possible reactions:
laugh or anger but the ridicule situation is recognized by both.

Humor is often the only weapon that people have against sectarians
when they dominate everithing. How many times a sectarian regime has
been destroyed by humour? I do not know but it has been many times at
all the scales since we developed this heavenly gift. Thanks God, for
having this instinct for discovering and pointing at ridicule ideas
and ridicule people.

2015-03-13 21:31 GMT+01:00, Terren Suydam terren.suy...@gmail.com:
 Having to explain the value of having a sense of humor about things, even
 serious things, is like explaining a joke and hoping it's still funny. But
 being able to find humor in the midst of a dark situation is one of the
 most valuable internal resources one can have.

 On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 4:19 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
 everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

 Are you proposing we laugh our way through the greatest extinction event
 since the dinosaurs bought it some sixty million years ago…. As we
 degrade
 and destroy this planet’s biosphere and the ecological systems that have
 evolved within it, in a mere flash of time called the oil age.

 These are serious issues.



 *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:
 everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Terren Suydam
 *Sent:* Friday, March 13, 2015 12:47 PM
 *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com
 *Subject:* Re: The world's most environmentally friendly car



 Oh c'mon, that was hilarious. Lighten up willya.



 On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 3:35 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List
 
 everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

 You really do hate environmentalists don’t you John.



 *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:
 everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *John Clark
 *Sent:* Friday, March 13, 2015 11:35 AM
 *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com
 *Subject:* The world's most environmentally friendly car



 www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXEddCLW3SM

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Re: evangelizing robots

2015-02-10 Thread Alberto G. Corona

I can´t even enumerate the number of ways in which that article is wrong.

First of all, any intelligent robot MUST have a religion in order to act in
any way. A set of core beliefs. A non intelligent robot need them too: It
is the set of constants. The intelligent robot  can rewrite their constants
from which he derive their calculations for actions and if the robot is
self preserving and reproduce sexually, it has to adjust his constants i.e.
his beliefs according with some darwinian algoritm that must take into
account himself but specially the group in which he lives and
collaborates..

If the robot does not reproduce sexually and his fellows do not execute
very similar programs, it is pointless to teach them any human religion.

These and other higher aspects like acting with other intelligent beings
communicate perceptions, how a robot elaborate philosophical and
theological concepts and collaborate with others, see my post about
robotic truth

But I think that a robot with such level of intelligence will never be
possible.

2015-02-09 21:59 GMT+01:00 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net:


 In two senses of that term! Or something.

 http://bigthink.com/ideafeed/robot-religion-2

 http://gizmodo.com/when-superintelligent-ai-arrives-will-religions-try-t-
 1682837922

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Re: What over 170 people think about machines that think

2015-01-31 Thread Alberto G. Corona

The Turing test is one of these over- overrated things that modern people
worship. A child may not pass the test. And even an adolescent. and a
simple program such Eliza could pass it in some way. And it means
absolutely nothing.

How modern people keep attached to myths fabricated and neglect that it is
obviously  myths was something beyond my understanding until I realized
that men are ever the same everywhere.


2015-01-31 10:23 GMT+01:00 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be:


 On 28 Jan 2015, at 10:52, LizR wrote:

 Machines (Humanly Constructed Artifacts) Cannot Think
 http://edge.org/response-detail/26060
 http://edge.org/memberbio/arnold_trehub
 Arnold Trehub http://edge.org/memberbio/arnold_trehub



 Well, I have an answer to this one, at least. Humans are machines



 We don't know that. Of course it is a good default hypothesis as we don't
 have evidences for the contrary (except the wave collapse, but we don't
 have evidence for a wave collapse, actually).


 - are, in fact, humanly constructed artifacts - hence whether machines can
 think is the same as whether humans can think.


 Well, obviously, Turing addressed the question of human made machine ...
 by hand. he was a bit naive as he thought that it would take 50 years for a
 machine to pass the test (if I remember well).

 But the test is a bit ambiguous. And if it does not last long, I can argue
 that a non thinking machine could pass it too. In fact Turing's approach
 here is a way to avoid the hard problem of consciousness (which is just
 the antic mind-body problem).

 I am glad people learn more about Turing who was a great guy. Like
 Copeland and Turing's mother, I am far from sure he commit suicide.
 It would be nice if Emil Post, Kleene, Church and others were also
 celebrate. The movie imitation game does not seem to mention the main
 discovery of Turing: the universal machine/numbers alias the (universal)
 computer. I have not (yet) seen it.

 Bruno




 Has anyone seen The Imitation Game by the way?


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 http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: What over 170 people think about machines that think

2015-01-31 Thread Alberto G. Corona

Yes. It was a first cut.

For a very realistic and humorous view of the social problems with machines
I recommend the novels of stanislav Lem.

2015-01-31 23:24 GMT+01:00 LizR lizj...@gmail.com:

 I must admit I have never been able to see much point in the TT, but I
 think it probably made sense in the context of the times, as a first cut
 at defining AI. But as Alberto says we shouldn't have deified it or reified
 it (or whatever).

 On 1 February 2015 at 10:43, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 The Turing test is one of these over- overrated things that modern people
 worship. A child may not pass the test. And even an adolescent. and a
 simple program such Eliza could pass it in some way. And it means
 absolutely nothing.

 How modern people keep attached to myths fabricated and neglect that it
 is obviously  myths was something beyond my understanding until I realized
 that men are ever the same everywhere.


 2015-01-31 10:23 GMT+01:00 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be:


 On 28 Jan 2015, at 10:52, LizR wrote:

 Machines (Humanly Constructed Artifacts) Cannot Think
 http://edge.org/response-detail/26060
 http://edge.org/memberbio/arnold_trehub
 Arnold Trehub http://edge.org/memberbio/arnold_trehub



 Well, I have an answer to this one, at least. Humans are machines



 We don't know that. Of course it is a good default hypothesis as we
 don't have evidences for the contrary (except the wave collapse, but we
 don't have evidence for a wave collapse, actually).


 - are, in fact, humanly constructed artifacts - hence whether machines
 can think is the same as whether humans can think.


 Well, obviously, Turing addressed the question of human made machine ...
 by hand. he was a bit naive as he thought that it would take 50 years for a
 machine to pass the test (if I remember well).

 But the test is a bit ambiguous. And if it does not last long, I can
 argue that a non thinking machine could pass it too. In fact Turing's
 approach here is a way to avoid the hard problem of consciousness (which
 is just the antic mind-body problem).

 I am glad people learn more about Turing who was a great guy. Like
 Copeland and Turing's mother, I am far from sure he commit suicide.
 It would be nice if Emil Post, Kleene, Church and others were also
 celebrate. The movie imitation game does not seem to mention the main
 discovery of Turing: the universal machine/numbers alias the (universal)
 computer. I have not (yet) seen it.

 Bruno




 Has anyone seen The Imitation Game by the way?


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 http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: Solomonoff Induction

2015-01-29 Thread Alberto G. Corona

It is difficult, since the original solomonoff theory of inductive
inference about the next value of a sequence only says how to calculate the
inference once we have obtained the set of algorithms that agree with the
known part of the sequence. It say nothing about how to obtain the
algorithms.

But the philosophical implications of the theory are deep.

I know that schmidhuber worked together with solomonoff and did a lot of
practical research on machine learning (which is what induction is about)

http://people.idsia.ch/~juergen/



2015-01-29 9:30 GMT+01:00 Dennis Ochei do.infinit...@gmail.com:

 Are there any practical implementations of Solomonoff Induction on a
 hypothesis space of bounded length programs? Like with actual code?

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Re: The TPP

2015-01-29 Thread Alberto G. Corona

Spengler, in the decadence of the West says that societies are more like
plants.

2015-01-29 22:05 GMT+01:00 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com:

People worry that one day machines will take over, and we will
become subservient slaves to their ends, that they will set the rules,
control the government, and be above the law.

We no longer need to fear that day because it already happened, quite some
time ago. These machines are corporations: self-sustaining, evolving (in
a Darwinian sense), hyper-intelligent, extremely-knowledgeable, immortal,
transnational, entities which see and utilize humans as mere cogs in their
own machinery. They are independently intelligent entities which we humans
think we control, but we no more control them than any cell in our body
controls our own personal actions.

Jason

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 11:44 AM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

Transnational corporate globalism, has not turned out to be all that good
for freedom, quality of human life or the environment; it has however been
great for the quarterly bottom line… and profit is the only value that
seems valued these days.

-Chris

*From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:
everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *LizR

https://action.sumofus.org/a/tpp-final-talks/?akid=9154.7664677.NhaQ0sask=1rd=1sub=fwdt=2

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Knowledge is only possible in a symphony of force fields

2015-01-26 Thread Alberto G. Corona

 Knowledge is only possible in a symphony of force fields
http://www.wisdomofchopra.com/

Some posts of this list that mix conscuousness with physics resembles me
third age gurus. This at least is randomly generared by a program.

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Re: Manifesto Rex

2015-01-23 Thread Alberto G. Corona

Moreover, I think that you are inconsistent. If consciousness precedes
everything including logic, truth existence etc. Then you can not demote
what consciousness perceive to mere usefulness. Neiter you can call what
is consciously perceived as false, and posit something unknown and external
as the true reality. Neiter you can say that we are deceived by
consciousness. Consciousness is the only thing you have. Consciousness is
you and your reality full stop, even if you have a theory about how the
mind came to be.

You can not reverse the hierarchy and call the theory as the reality and
consciousness as the product. It is the other way around; What is useful is
that (incomplete) theory to acquire better knowledge of the true reality
that you experience, not the other way around.

What you say is that because there are

IMHO a coherent evolutionary metaphysics coming from natural selection,
with a detailed definition and use of usefulness in the context of social
beings can be found in my post entitled robotic truth. By the way,
unsurprisingly the conclussions are related with classical philosophy,
since classical philosophy is pure unbiased introspection
.

2015-01-20 3:33 GMT+01:00 Rex Allen rexallen31...@gmail.com:

 Consciousness precedes axioms.  Consciousness precedes logic.  Axioms and
 logic exist within conscious experience - not vice versa.  Consciousness
 comes before everything else.

 It is self-evident that there are conscious experiences.  However, what
 consciousness *is* - it’s ultimate nature - is not self-evident.  Further,
 what any particular conscious experience “means” is also not self-evident.

 For example:  The experience of color is directly known and
 incontrovertible.  But what the experience of color *means* is not directly
 known - any proposed explanation is inferential and controvertible.

 We do not have direct access to meaning.

 We only have direct access to bare uninterpreted conscious experience.

 So - any attempted explanation of consciousness from the outside (i.e.,
 objectively) must be constructed from inside consciousness, by conscious
 processes, on a foundation of conscious experience.

 Not a promising situation - because any explanation must be based entirely
 on conscious experiences which have no intrinsic meaning, and arrived at
 via conscious processes which are equally lacking in intrinsic meaning.

 It “seems” like we could just stop here and accept that things are what
 they are.  And what else do we have other than the way things “seem”?  I
 experience what I experience - nothing further can be known.

 HOWEVER - while we could just stop there - most of us don’t.

 For most of us, it seems that non-accepting, questioning, doubting,
 believing, disbelieving, desiring, grasping, wanting, unsatisfied conscious
 experiences just keep piling up.

 Why is this?

 Well - it seems like there is either an explanation for this - or it just
 a brute fact that has no explanation.

 If there is no explanation, then we should just accept our non-acceptance,
 our non-stoppingness, and let it go.  Or not.  Doesn’t matter.

 Alternatively, if there is an explanation - then there are two options:


1.

The explanation is not accessible to us because our conscious
experiences do not “point” towards the truth of the way things are.
2.

The explanation is accessible to us, because our conscious experiences
*do* point towards the truth of the way things are.


 Again, if we believe that option 1 is correct, we can just stop.  Or not.
 It doesn’t matter.

 So - let’s *provisionally* assume that option 2 is correct.

 I say “provisionally” instead of “axiomatically” because we will revisit
 this assumption.  Once we’ve gone as far as we can in working out the
 implications of it being true - we will return to this assumption and see
 if it still makes sense in light of where we ended up.

 At this point I am willing to grant that modern science provides the best
 methodology for translating (extrapolating?) from our truth-pointing
 conscious experiences to models that represent the accessible parts of how
 things “really” are.

 To the extent that anything can be said about how things really are
 “outside of” conscious experience - science says it.

 But we never have direct access to the truth - all we have are our models
 of the truth, which (hopefully) improve over time as we distill out the
 valid parts of our truth-pointing conscious experiences.

 Okay - now, having said all of that - what models has modern science
 developed?  Apparently there are two fundamental theories:  General
 Relativity and Quantum Field Theory.

 From Wikipedia:

 GR is a theoretical framework that only focuses on the force of gravity
 for understanding the universe in regions of both large-scale and
 high-mass: stars, galaxies, clusters of galaxies, etc. On the other hand,
 QFT is a theoretical framework that only focuses on three non-gravitational
 forces for

Re: Manifesto Rex

2015-01-21 Thread Alberto G. Corona

I used to think that way. If you examine previous posts, you will see my
posts reasoning along these natural-selection lines (evolution is a very
very bad name for natural selection).

But now I think that this is incomplete. More or less your point of view is
similar to the Konrad Lorentz when he said that  natural selection is what
introduces the Kantian a prioris in the mind since evolution makes the
mind. Kant is famous for positing synthetic a priory truths that are self
evident and toward which we can not create any simpler explanation.

You are following the Kantian lines, that are part of the folk metaphysics
of today: There are an external reality that is inaccessible to us, and
that external reality is the True Reality. Kant called phenomena what we
observe and the external inaccessible reality is what Kant call noumena.
Only by means of experimentation on phenomena we can known something about
the true external reality . The results are scientific models and theories.
Internally there are only subjective things : feelings, values etc. Only
what is objectivated by science are facts. the subjective gain objective
status by means of science or direct shared observation. Since internal
states are not observable, this positivistic metaphisics despise all of
this, including metaphysincs. So it is self reinforcing and self
contradictory at the same time.

But I think that this is not that way.  the noumenal external reality does
not exist. the reality is in the mind. The external reality is purely
mathematical an evolution creates the conscious experiences, the values,
feelings and perceptions  (including tacticle and visual) necessary to
maintain the body in this mathematical four dimensional reality along the
time dimension.

Then there are no two realities but a single meaningful one, that is
mental. and the models are the true external reality or an approximation to
it, that is mathematical. we share almost identical internal realities
because we share the same mind functional architecture.

But there is more. QM and GR are not the only mathematical structures out
there. Both need other mathematical structures to work  and the space time
generate other structures along the time dimension,seen locally as
evolution: it generates structures that are in the physiology of living and
non living beings but also in the mind of inteligent beings. It could be
said that a perfect mind is also a mathematical structure toward which our
mind is evolving. natural selection does not produce arbitrary forms, but
optimize designs close to an optimum of efficiency and simplicity for a
task, many times in ways that apparently look weird but other times are
very clear. there are mathematical relations in living beings.

In terms of behaviours, there are also mathematical relations in game
theory that may be used in the future to relate love, goodness, evil and so
on to mathematical entities, and degrees of good and evil in terms of
variations of entropy. Being will be also something objectivable
mathematically in the future. I think that a notion of mind or soul, can be
also a ideal mathematical structure towards which our evolved minds try to
imitate in his evolved imperfection, in the same way that by convergent
evolution the fin of a dolphin and a shark tend to the same ideal dorsal
fin. And this Mind really encloses not phisically, but mathematically, the
universe and we are part of it and this Mind is the ultimate reality. It is
not an evolved mind but a mathematical one in the platonic sense but also
in the same way that we are not maths, but math is our model, He is not
only that.

2015-01-20 3:33 GMT+01:00 Rex Allen rexallen31...@gmail.com:

 Consciousness precedes axioms.  Consciousness precedes logic.  Axioms and
 logic exist within conscious experience - not vice versa.  Consciousness
 comes before everything else.

 It is self-evident that there are conscious experiences.  However, what
 consciousness *is* - it’s ultimate nature - is not self-evident.  Further,
 what any particular conscious experience “means” is also not self-evident.

 For example:  The experience of color is directly known and
 incontrovertible.  But what the experience of color *means* is not directly
 known - any proposed explanation is inferential and controvertible.

 We do not have direct access to meaning.

 We only have direct access to bare uninterpreted conscious experience.

 So - any attempted explanation of consciousness from the outside (i.e.,
 objectively) must be constructed from inside consciousness, by conscious
 processes, on a foundation of conscious experience.

 Not a promising situation - because any explanation must be based entirely
 on conscious experiences which have no intrinsic meaning, and arrived at
 via conscious processes which are equally lacking in intrinsic meaning.

 It “seems” like we could just stop here and accept that things are what
 they are.  And what else do we have other than the way things

Re: What over 170 people think about machines that think

2015-01-18 Thread Alberto G. Corona

   - The question of whether Machines Can Think... is about as relevant
   http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Relevant as the question of whether
   Submarines Can Swim.
  - Dijkstra (1984) The threats to computing science
  http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD08xx/EWD898.html
  (EWD898).


2015-01-18 1:24 GMT+01:00 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com:



 -Original Message-
 From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:
 everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb
 Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2015 3:28 PM
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Subject: Re: What over 170 people think about machines that think

 There's a whole organization, the Machine Intelligence Research Insitute
 (Google MIRI) which seems to do little except think about how to ensure
 that a superhuman AI is friendly - which I'm pretty sure is provably
 impossible.

 I agree with you there. However, even though it may be impossible to
 ensure AI is friendly; we should do what is within our power -- as we
 develop its precursors -- to attempt to improve the likelihood that it will
 look kindly upon the hairless apes that gave rise to it.
 Read a few of those essays, by the way; an interesting compilation. Plan
 on reading some more of them.
 -Chris

 Brent

 On 1/17/2015 2:20 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:
 
  -Original Message-
  From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
  [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb
 
  Some interesting short essays.
 
  Thanks, they do seem interesting. Also topical, on this subject: AI
 experts around the globe are signing an open letter issued Sunday by the
 Future of Life Institute that pledges to safely and carefully coordinate
 progress in the field to ensure it does not grow beyond humanity's control.
 Signees include co-founders of Deep Mind, the British AI company purchased
 by Google in January 2014; MIT professors; and experts at some of
 technology's biggest corporations, including IBM's Watson supercomputer
 team and Microsoft Research.
  -Chris
 
  http://edge.org/contributors/q2015
 
 
  Brent
 

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Re: Democracy

2015-01-13 Thread Alberto G. Corona

 cannabis permit the access to repressed UDA computations although not as
much as salvia. So better build your car with cannabis and don't drive
salvified

2015-01-12 18:23 GMT+01:00 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com:



 2015-01-12 18:20 GMT+01:00 Platonist Guitar Cowboy 
 multiplecit...@gmail.com:



 On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 5:39 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Ok, then fine, believe what you want to believe and cannabis is as good
 as anything...



 With your type of reasoning you should conclude alcoholism does not
 exist and only prohibitionist pretend it does...


  I disagree with such bombastic statement. Alcohol is dangerous, so is
 cannabis, so are windows, depending on particularities. But relative to
 other poison, cannabis is relatively safe. Also, what is my type of
 reasoning and how does this relate to this discussion?


 Your type of reasoning is simply denying a lot of studies with correlation
 between depression and heavy cannabis usage as being prohibitionist
 propaganda... as such my bombastic statement is the same... alcoholism
 does not exist, it is prohibitionist propaganda... and you can link all the
 studies you want, they're all financed and done with a prohibitionist
 agenda... any persons who pretend to be an alcoholic and that alcohol has
 affected is life is a liar... and should have gone to a psychiatrist.. am I
 resuming it well ?

 Quentin


 PGC

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 All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy
 Batty/Rutger Hauer)

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Re: Democracy

John,

But trade need an environment where some force and some love are necessary.
Trade without enforcement of contracts does not work. Neither work without
some sincere love for what one does and for the well being of the client.
trade without force need an utopic quantity of love. trade without love
need big quantity of force.

It is a pity to see all these  modern ideologies that are nothing but
simplifications and adaptations of Christian concepts.  No political system
is better than other. The Christian call for a personal revolution, called
conversion, to change what is around and have a better society, not a
political change.  Paul called for the obedience of the Cesar, and the
Cesar at that time was Nero. Only by the example or testimony of each one
that changes the people around, the system will mutate to a better one.
Even if formally does not change. And the contrary the better political
system will decay if the people do evil. No society will be free from
corruption since it is in human nature.

In contrast the liberal sectarians of the ilustration and the french
revolution though that a political change would change fundamentally the
society for a better one without previously changing the people. That does
not work.

After that, the socialist sectarians fo the comunist revolution though that
a violent social change would create a new Man. That didn't work too.

What is next? the sectarian culturalist though


All of them are bad and cheap copies of the Christian conception of
salvation, escatology etc.

But it is better to call things by his name. Democracy is an ideological
lie. There is no such thing as democracy. There is the law of majority. and
the result is not what the majority think, but what the elite -that they
admire and obey- think. At the end the formal system does not matter


2015-01-10 19:40 GMT+01:00 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com:

 On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 4:08 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
 everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

  Functioning anarchy would require a level of individual ethics that does
 not yet exist


 No, it's socialism that won't work unless everybody is a saint, and that's
 why socialist are always observed to be in a constant state of righteous
 indignation; people aren't behaving as he wants then to behave and as they
 must behave for his system to function. In general I can only think of 3
 ways to get anybody to do anything, force, love, or trade. I think most of
 us would agree that all else being equal force is the least desirable of
 the three. Love is very nice and it works for some things but any economic
 system that must rely on people loving each other is just not going to
 work. So unless somebody knows of a fourth way that I haven't thought of
 there is only one thing left.

 The farmer grows my food, the trucker moves my food and the grocer sells
 my food, I didn't make them do it and none of these people love me,
 yet the free market plunges them into a conspiracy to put food on my
 table. Capitalism can efficiently create wealth even if everybody is just
 looking out for themselves, I know of no other economic system that can do
 that.

   John K Clark



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Re: Democracy

2015-01-10 22:49 GMT+01:00 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com:



 2015-01-10 22:10 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com:



 On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 8:35 PM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 John,

 But trade need an environment where some force and some love are
 necessary. Trade without enforcement of contracts does not work.


 There's plenty of evidence to the contrary.


 I would like to know. I have a long experience in discussions with anarco
 capitalists, since I was one of them for a time


 Take Silk Road. By it's very nature it could not resort to any of the law
 enforcement or judicial systems maintained by the state. It didn't even use
 the state's currency. Yet it had a large number of happy buyers and
 sellers. It worked perfectly well under self-regulation.


 Neither work without some sincere love for what one does and for the
 well being of the client.  trade without force need an utopic quantity of
 love.


 It might only need rational agents: one's reputation is more valuable in
 the long run than immediate profit, one should due one's due diligence
 before entering large trades. Again, this is how any successful illegal
 market operates. And many do.

 A rational agent is a gangster, or a swindler.


CLARIFICATION: I don't mean that both are kinds of rational agents. Not
that are the only ones of course.


 No intention to be sarcastic here. Both are perfect rational agents, and
 both will be present in any market environment ready to destroy the win-win
 game of the market. That is the reason why force and love are necessary.

 It is so evident for me that I would be very very surprised to find that
 you convince me after years of arguing with anarco-capitalists


 Telmo.


 trade without love need big quantity of force.

 It is a pity to see all these  modern ideologies that are nothing but
 simplifications and adaptations of Christian concepts.  No political system
 is better than other. The Christian call for a personal revolution, called
 conversion, to change what is around and have a better society, not a
 political change.  Paul called for the obedience of the Cesar, and the
 Cesar at that time was Nero. Only by the example or testimony of each one
 that changes the people around, the system will mutate to a better one.
 Even if formally does not change. And the contrary the better political
 system will decay if the people do evil. No society will be free from
 corruption since it is in human nature.

 In contrast the liberal sectarians of the ilustration and the french
 revolution though that a political change would change fundamentally the
 society for a better one without previously changing the people. That does
 not work.

 After that, the socialist sectarians fo the comunist revolution though
 that a violent social change would create a new Man. That didn't work too.

 What is next? the sectarian culturalist though


 All of them are bad and cheap copies of the Christian conception of
 salvation, escatology etc.

 But it is better to call things by his name. Democracy is an ideological
 lie. There is no such thing as democracy. There is the law of majority. and
 the result is not what the majority think, but what the elite -that they
 admire and obey- think. At the end the formal system does not matter


 2015-01-10 19:40 GMT+01:00 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com:

 On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 4:08 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List
 everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

  Functioning anarchy would require a level of individual ethics that
 does not yet exist


 No, it's socialism that won't work unless everybody is a saint, and
 that's why socialist are always observed to be in a constant state of
 righteous indignation; people aren't behaving as he wants then to behave
 and as they must behave for his system to function. In general I can only
 think of 3 ways to get anybody to do anything, force, love, or trade. I
 think most of us would agree that all else being equal force is the least
 desirable of the three. Love is very nice and it works for some things but
 any economic system that must rely on people loving each other is just not
 going to work. So unless somebody knows of a fourth way that I haven't
 thought of there is only one thing left.

 The farmer grows my food, the trucker moves my food and the grocer
 sells my food, I didn't make them do it and none of these people love me,
 yet the free market plunges them into a conspiracy to put food on my
 table. Capitalism can efficiently create wealth even if everybody is just
 looking out for themselves, I know of no other economic system that can do
 that.

   John K Clark



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Re: Democracy

2015-01-10 22:10 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com:



 On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 8:35 PM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 John,

 But trade need an environment where some force and some love are
 necessary. Trade without enforcement of contracts does not work.


 There's plenty of evidence to the contrary.


I would like to know. I have a long experience in discussions with anarco
capitalists, since I was one of them for a time


 Take Silk Road. By it's very nature it could not resort to any of the law
 enforcement or judicial systems maintained by the state. It didn't even use
 the state's currency. Yet it had a large number of happy buyers and
 sellers. It worked perfectly well under self-regulation.


 Neither work without some sincere love for what one does and for the well
 being of the client.  trade without force need an utopic quantity of love.


 It might only need rational agents: one's reputation is more valuable in
 the long run than immediate profit, one should due one's due diligence
 before entering large trades. Again, this is how any successful illegal
 market operates. And many do.

 A rational agent is a gangster, or a swindler. No intention to be
sarcastic here. Both are perfect rational agents, and both will be present
in any market environment ready to destroy the win-win game of the market.
That is the reason why force and love are necessary.

It is so evident for me that I would be very very surprised to find that
you convince me after years of arguing with anarco-capitalists


 Telmo.


 trade without love need big quantity of force.

 It is a pity to see all these  modern ideologies that are nothing but
 simplifications and adaptations of Christian concepts.  No political system
 is better than other. The Christian call for a personal revolution, called
 conversion, to change what is around and have a better society, not a
 political change.  Paul called for the obedience of the Cesar, and the
 Cesar at that time was Nero. Only by the example or testimony of each one
 that changes the people around, the system will mutate to a better one.
 Even if formally does not change. And the contrary the better political
 system will decay if the people do evil. No society will be free from
 corruption since it is in human nature.

 In contrast the liberal sectarians of the ilustration and the french
 revolution though that a political change would change fundamentally the
 society for a better one without previously changing the people. That does
 not work.

 After that, the socialist sectarians fo the comunist revolution though
 that a violent social change would create a new Man. That didn't work too.

 What is next? the sectarian culturalist though


 All of them are bad and cheap copies of the Christian conception of
 salvation, escatology etc.

 But it is better to call things by his name. Democracy is an ideological
 lie. There is no such thing as democracy. There is the law of majority. and
 the result is not what the majority think, but what the elite -that they
 admire and obey- think. At the end the formal system does not matter


 2015-01-10 19:40 GMT+01:00 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com:

 On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 4:08 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
 everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

  Functioning anarchy would require a level of individual ethics that
 does not yet exist


 No, it's socialism that won't work unless everybody is a saint, and
 that's why socialist are always observed to be in a constant state of
 righteous indignation; people aren't behaving as he wants then to behave
 and as they must behave for his system to function. In general I can only
 think of 3 ways to get anybody to do anything, force, love, or trade. I
 think most of us would agree that all else being equal force is the least
 desirable of the three. Love is very nice and it works for some things but
 any economic system that must rely on people loving each other is just not
 going to work. So unless somebody knows of a fourth way that I haven't
 thought of there is only one thing left.

 The farmer grows my food, the trucker moves my food and the grocer sells
 my food, I didn't make them do it and none of these people love me,
 yet the free market plunges them into a conspiracy to put food on my
 table. Capitalism can efficiently create wealth even if everybody is just
 looking out for themselves, I know of no other economic system that can do
 that.

   John K Clark



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 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
 Groups Everything List group.
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 --
 Alberto.

 --
 You received this message

Re: Democracy

2015-01-10 23:12 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com:



 On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 10:49 PM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
 wrote:



 2015-01-10 22:10 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com:



 On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 8:35 PM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 John,

 But trade need an environment where some force and some love are
 necessary. Trade without enforcement of contracts does not work.


 There's plenty of evidence to the contrary.


 I would like to know. I have a long experience in discussions with anarco
 capitalists, since I was one of them for a time


 Take Silk Road. By it's very nature it could not resort to any of the
 law enforcement or judicial systems maintained by the state. It didn't even
 use the state's currency. Yet it had a large number of happy buyers and
 sellers. It worked perfectly well under self-regulation.


 Neither work without some sincere love for what one does and for the
 well being of the client.  trade without force need an utopic quantity of
 love.


 It might only need rational agents: one's reputation is more valuable in
 the long run than immediate profit, one should due one's due diligence
 before entering large trades. Again, this is how any successful illegal
 market operates. And many do.

 A rational agent is a gangster, or a swindler. No intention to be
 sarcastic here. Both are perfect rational agents, and both will be present
 in any market environment ready to destroy the win-win game of the market.
 That is the reason why force and love are necessary.


 If there are enough rational agents in the market, cooperation becomes
 more profitable than misbehaviour. Rational agents will be careful about
 who they enter large transaction with. So the access to high transactions
 becomes dependent on reputation, and reputation becomes more valuable than
 the profits from misbehaving on smaller trades.

 This is why Silk Road worked, even though people could send flour instead
 of cocaine, and the buyer would have no recourse to the police or the
 courts.


But silk road works because there is a server somewhere which is maintained
by people that go to work all day and when they return to their houses all
their properties are intact thanks to the law enforcement and the moral
principles of the people. It works in the same way that the stock market
works: because these rational agents are surrounded by a network of
values and institutions that guarantee stability of what happens inside. It
is nothing isolated neither sustained in the air.




 It is so evident for me that I would be very very surprised to find that
 you convince me after years of arguing with anarco-capitalists


 Telmo.


 trade without love need big quantity of force.

 It is a pity to see all these  modern ideologies that are nothing but
 simplifications and adaptations of Christian concepts.  No political system
 is better than other. The Christian call for a personal revolution, called
 conversion, to change what is around and have a better society, not a
 political change.  Paul called for the obedience of the Cesar, and the
 Cesar at that time was Nero. Only by the example or testimony of each one
 that changes the people around, the system will mutate to a better one.
 Even if formally does not change. And the contrary the better political
 system will decay if the people do evil. No society will be free from
 corruption since it is in human nature.

 In contrast the liberal sectarians of the ilustration and the french
 revolution though that a political change would change fundamentally the
 society for a better one without previously changing the people. That does
 not work.

 After that, the socialist sectarians fo the comunist revolution though
 that a violent social change would create a new Man. That didn't work too.

 What is next? the sectarian culturalist though


 All of them are bad and cheap copies of the Christian conception of
 salvation, escatology etc.

 But it is better to call things by his name. Democracy is an
 ideological lie. There is no such thing as democracy. There is the law of
 majority. and the result is not what the majority think, but what the elite
 -that they admire and obey- think. At the end the formal system does not
 matter


 2015-01-10 19:40 GMT+01:00 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com:

 On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 4:08 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything
 List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

  Functioning anarchy would require a level of individual ethics that
 does not yet exist


 No, it's socialism that won't work unless everybody is a saint, and
 that's why socialist are always observed to be in a constant state of
 righteous indignation; people aren't behaving as he wants then to behave
 and as they must behave for his system to function. In general I can only
 think of 3 ways to get anybody to do anything, force, love, or trade. I
 think most of us would agree that all else being equal

Re: Democracy