subject:"\[FairfieldLife\] Re\: Why does T\/M cost so much to join\? A little help\?"

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:07 PM, sparaig wrote:
 
   Correct it does not describe the technique of manasika-japa/TM 
but
   merely defines mindfulness in a broad context of practice.
  
 
  Insomuch as TM involves awareness, then you can say its 
mindfulness.
 
 Precisely.
 
  Beyond that, depends on the definition of mindfulness.
 
 I am using Asanga's definition as it is pertinent to the style of  
 meditation we are discussing.

Blink, blink. Which style is that?

 
  As I pointed
  out, a perfectly valid TM session could involve thinking the 
mantra
  once and being distracted by internal/external phenomena for the 
next
  20 minutes.
 
  You seemed to believe thatthat could NOT be a valid meditation
  session, or so your good luck with that response suggests.
 
 This is an erroneous conclusion. It may well be for you a valid  
 meditation in your version of TM style meditation. 

MY version of TM-style meditation? It is what has happened on 
occassion. How is this MY version? Perhaps it has never happened 
with anyone else, but I doubt it.


What that will  
 actually lead to is depression if it is repeated long enough--
which  
 actually explains a lot. It may well be a fault in this technique.


LEts see: anything can happen during TM practice, and its a fault of 
the technique...

Do all practitioners of your style of meditation indulge in such 
sloppy use of their native languages?







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:13 PM, authfriend wrote:
 
  I'm familiar with it in the context of the TM-Sidhis.
  Where is this official movement translation of the
  term to be found in the context of plain-vanilla TM?
 
 Steadiness is a popular TMer word for dharana.


Really? I heard that dharana, dyhana, samadhi was to be translated 
as maintainance, motion, samadhi, not steadiness.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
   On Mar 15, 2006, at 11:36 AM, sparaig wrote:
   
Huh, but one can have the outward stroke for the full 
20 minutes of TM practice and still be practicing TM 
absolutely correctly.
   
   Good luck with that!
  
  So Judy and I have been correct: you really never learned TM, 
  regardless of what classes/courses you took on the subject.
 
 So you believe that to have learned TM properly,
 you have to believe all the *dogma* about TM that
 was taught to you?
 
 That's what you're saying, in effect. What you've
 just said isn't about the mechanics of TM, but
 about what you were told in the lectures *about*
 TM. It's THEORY. Vaj has a *different* theory,
 based on his subsequent experience. I think that
 in the biz, that's known as an OPINION.  :-)

Theoretical or not, I was taught that that particular experience 
during TM practice was just as valid as any other. Vaj was implying 
(and later clarified) that its not a good experience.

 
 Are you so weak in your *own* practice that you
 have to suggest that anyone who doesn't believe
 the same dogma you believe is doing TM wrong?

What dogma? The dogma that says that any ole experience during TM 
practice is as good as any other?

 That IS what you are suggesting. I mean, think
 this through, dude...if TM is as automatic as
 you have maintained in the past, and as free from
 the need to believe in it, then a person could
 be practicing it as taught and believe that any 
 benefits come from tiny green gophers who, as one 
 thinks the mantra, scurry around the brain eating 
 up any unruly neurons in the brain. 

Of course. However, any theory that explains TM needs to 
preservethe essence of TM. I don't think yours does, unless you can 
link it to the anything goes aspect of TM practice.

 
 Your position is based on an assumption, also
 one that you were TOLD, that TM works by dis-
 solving stress. Some of us, based on our exper-
 ience with other techniques and with higher
 states of consciousness, don't believe that this
 is true. Therefore, to us, the benefit of any
 form of meditation, *including* TM, is a direct
 result of how effectively the practice leads to
 transcendence. We believe *that* (the amount of
 time spent in transcendence) is the mechanism
 that affects change, *not* sitting there lost in
 thought. This conflicts with the TM dogma, but it
 may be correct. It's a matter of belief, not fact.
 


Sure, but within the TM explanation, its a perfectly valid meditation 
episode. You're merely objecting to it being valid becuase YOUR 
theories don't jive with it.

 Stop this stuff. You're too intelligent to have
 to stoop to this sort of argument. It's *permis-
 sible* to have different opinions on the theory
 behind TM, *especially* if, as in Vaj's case,
 he has other experiences *besides* TM to base
 his theory on, and is not (as in your case)
 basing them completely on what he was TOLD.


Except, of course, I'm only talking about TM.

 
 As I suggested to t3rinity lately, and as he
 seems to have taken to heart, you'd make a much
 stronger case for your beliefs if you found a
 way to present them positively than if you just
 react in a knee-jerk fashion by trying to defend
 them by demonizing the person who believes 
 differently, or who is presenting a different 
 set of beliefs. But when you react by trying to 
 say that the other person's opinion is fatally 
 flawed, and that they never learned properly, 
 all you reveal is your own dependence on dogma 
 and doing what you were told. You're better 
 than that.


Lol. The most blind is often the one who complains about everyone 
else being blind. Have you ever noticed that, I wonder?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 In any
 style of meditation where you have an object of focus
   
Which excludes TM, since TM doesn't involve focusing.
   
   In terms of process, it is the point you return to 
   irregardless.  
   Focus here being an english trans. of the Sanskrit dharana 
or  
   focus of attention in the official movement translation of 
   the word. Since you claimed to be familiar with TM, I assumed 
   you would be conversant in their language. Apparently that is 
   not the case.
  
  But, what mantra do you return to?
 
 You don't have to be so TM-centric and bigoted, man.
 Many techniques of meditation don't even *use* a
 mantra. But you still come back to something.

I'm aware that many techniques don't use a mantra. I was referring to 
the assumption that one knows what one's mantra is in the first 
placein the sense that most people would think of knowing. As like 
as not, my mantra is often a vague hum that is only identifiable 
as my mantra because its the most convenient label handy for 
whatever it is.

 
 IMO it isn't the mantra per se that enables
 TM to work; it's the coming back to,  the element
 of focus (even if it's soft focus, as in TM). The 
 choice of TM mantras was come to by trial and error, 
 and changed radically during MMY's early years. You
 can find them in many books, and chances are that's
 where Maharishi found them. There is nothing partic-
 ularly magical about them.

IMO, its the *process* that enables TM to work. 

 
 In other words, you responded to Vaj's point with
 a non-sequitur intended to dismiss it and suggest 
 that TM is best. Again. And again, you're better 
 than that.
 

In other words, you responded to MYpoint with a non-sequitur designed 
to prove that you and Vaj are correct and I am wrong.

 Just my two centimes...I'm just trying to suggest
 that there is room for people to believe different
 things about meditation and how it works. Chances
 are that *none* of them are correct. Acting as if
 one is correct and all others are incorrect seems
 to me a great way to develop a lot of negative
 karma, not to evolve.
 

Whatever. We were talking about the ole Transcendental Meditation as 
taught by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Vaj and you both indicate that you 
have not only different beliefs about what makes TM work, but 
different beliefs about what TM *IS* in the first place. Which goes 
back to MY point that any theory that attempts to explain TM must 
preserve the anything goes/effortlessness nature of the technique, or 
it morphs into something else.

 snip to
  Insomuch as TM involves awareness, then you can say its 
  mindfulness. Beyond that, depends on the definition of 
  mindfulness. 
 
 Correct. Earlier, I used a more limited definition of 
 mindfulness; but as Vaj and others here seem to be using
 it, it's a term that applies to the application of
 selective attention, period. As such, I would have to
 agree that most forms of meditation, including TM, fall
 into that category.
 

ONly within the most vague and open-ended definition of selective 
attention.

  As I pointed 
  out, a perfectly valid TM session could involve thinking 
  the mantra once and being distracted by internal/external 
  phenomena for the next 20 minutes.
  
  You seemed to believe thatthat could NOT be a valid meditation 
  session, or so your good luck with that response suggests.
 
 I don't think Vaj ever suggested that sitting lost in 
 thought wasn't valid. As I read what he said, he's
 suggesting that IN HIS OPINION it isn't particularly
 *effective*. I would agree. That doesn't mean that we
 didn't understand or get the TM dogma that surrounds
 this issue, merely that we don't buy it.

Fair enough, but *I* buyit becuase it DOES seem to work quite 
effectively for little ole ADHD me.

 
 There's a difference. Believing in a different theory
 doesn't mean that the other person is flawed, or that
 they didn't hear and understand the same things you
 did when you were listening to the TM teachers who
 were parroting what they were told to say. It just
 means that the other person has chosen not to take
 what they were told as some kind of cosmic truth, the
 *only* way that things could be described. Vaj is 
 expressing an opinion; he's entitled to that opinion.
 And *his* opinion has no effect whatsoever on you 
 or your own opinions unless you allow it to.


Sure, whatever, but once you start assigning value judgements to one 
particular experience over another, you're no longer practicing TM.

My point with Judy as well...







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
  On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:07 PM, sparaig wrote:
  
   You seemed to believe thatthat could NOT be a valid meditation
   session, or so your good luck with that response suggests.
  
  This is an erroneous conclusion. It may well be for you a valid  
  meditation in your version of TM style meditation. What that 
will  
  actually lead to is depression if it is repeated long enough--
which  
  actually explains a lot. It may well be a fault in this technique.
 
 For what it's worth, I actually agree with Vaj here.
 That does *not* mean that I didn't learn TM properly,
 merely that nearly 40 years of meditation practice
 have suggested other ways of seeing the situation to
 me that I tend to believe more than the dogma that is
 taught in the TM organization.


sure, whatever. But once you start assigning value judgements to one 
set of experiences over another, you're no longer practicing TM.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
On Mar 15, 2006, at 11:36 AM, sparaig wrote:

 Huh, but one can have the outward stroke for the full 
 20 minutes of TM practice and still be practicing TM 
 absolutely correctly.

Good luck with that!
   
   So Judy and I have been correct: you really never learned TM, 
   regardless of what classes/courses you took on the subject.
  
  So you believe that to have learned TM properly,
  you have to believe all the *dogma* about TM that
  was taught to you?
  
  That's what you're saying, in effect. What you've
  just said isn't about the mechanics of TM, but
  about what you were told in the lectures *about*
  TM. It's THEORY. Vaj has a *different* theory,
  based on his subsequent experience. I think that
  in the biz, that's known as an OPINION.  :-)
 
 Theoretical or not, I was taught that that particular experience 
 during TM practice was just as valid as any other. Vaj was 
 implying (and later clarified) that its not a good experience.

Or possibly not the most effective experience. Yes,
he did. And that is his OPINION, based on experience
with TM and with other techniques, and with a wide
range of teachings. Him believing that does NOT
imply that he really never learned TM.

Do you GET this, man? He could have learned exactly
as you did, believed it for years, and then *changed
his mind*, coming to a different conclusion, right?

  Are you so weak in your *own* practice that you
  have to suggest that anyone who doesn't believe
  the same dogma you believe is doing TM wrong?
 
 What dogma? The dogma that says that any ole experience 
 during TM practice is as good as any other?

YES!!!  That is dogma. You were TAUGHT this. WE, as
TM teachers, taught it to you. It isn't necessarily
Truth, with a capital 'T.' It's just what we were
taught to say. I believed it at the time, when I said
it. I no longer do. That doesn't mean that I really
never learned TM. Do you GET this distinction?

  That IS what you are suggesting. I mean, think
  this through, dude...if TM is as automatic as
  you have maintained in the past, and as free from
  the need to believe in it, then a person could
  be practicing it as taught and believe that any 
  benefits come from tiny green gophers who, as one 
  thinks the mantra, scurry around the brain eating 
  up any unruly neurons in the brain. 
 
 Of course. However, any theory that explains TM needs 
 to preserve the essence of TM. 

Why? Vaj isn't a TMer. He can have any theory about 
meditation and how meditation works that he wants. 
You are free to have your own belief in what you 
were TOLD about how TM works; he is free to have
his own belief about how TM works, based on his own
experience and what he may have learned in different
traditions. He is NOT trying to convince you to 
meditate differently. He is merely presenting a 
different way of looking at the mechanics of 
meditation and what, in his opinion, the most
important transformative element of meditation is.

 I don't think yours does, unless you can 
 link it to the anything goes aspect of TM practice.

It's just a THEORY, dude. It doesn't affect TM or
your practice of it in any WAY. And, contrary to
what you tried to imply, it doesn't imply that my
understanding of what TM presents in its dogma, or
Vaj's, is flawed and indicates that we really never
learned TM.  We *did* learn TM. We believed as you
do for many years. We changed our minds, that's all.

  Your position is based on an assumption, also
  one that you were TOLD, that TM works by dis-
  solving stress. Some of us, based on our exper-
  ience with other techniques and with higher
  states of consciousness, don't believe that this
  is true. Therefore, to us, the benefit of any
  form of meditation, *including* TM, is a direct
  result of how effectively the practice leads to
  transcendence. We believe *that* (the amount of
  time spent in transcendence) is the mechanism
  that affects change, *not* sitting there lost in
  thought. This conflicts with the TM dogma, but it
  may be correct. It's a matter of belief, not fact.
 
 Sure, but within the TM explanation, its a perfectly 
 valid meditation episode. You're merely objecting to 
 it being valid becuase YOUR theories don't jive with it.

If *you* believe it's valid, FINE!!! I have never 
said that I *don't* think it's valid. I personally
don't think that sitting for 20 minutes lost in
thought is as *effective* a style of meditation as
possible, but that's just what I believe. You are
free to practice TM exactly as it was taught to
you, and believe the dogma that was taught to you
about its theory. I just believe in a different
theory these days. AGAIN, the point of this discus-
sion is that *you* chose

[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
[...]
  Except, of course, I'm only talking about TM.
 
 So? You have a *theory* as to what constitutes an 
 effective meditation session. that *theory* just 
 happens to be the same one that was TOLD to you 
 by your TM teachers. Vaj has a different theory. 
 You tried to imply that this means he never really 
 learned TM.
 
 You really *don't* GET this, do you?


I don't think YOU get it: when a technique is meant to be easy, 
innocent, etc., theories that portray one set of experiences as being 
better than another set, detract from the *innocence* of the technique. 
That doesn't say anything about the effectivness of the technique, 
though of course *I* believe that the innocent technique IS more 
effective than the non-innocent one.

However, its hard to argue (though you and Vaj seem to) that one can 
have a theory of TM divorced from the innocence of TM.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
 
 snip 
  Just my two centimes...I'm just trying to suggest
  that there is room for people to believe different
  things about meditation and how it works. Chances
  are that *none* of them are correct. Acting as if
  one is correct and all others are incorrect seems
  to me a great way to develop a lot of negative
  karma, not to evolve.
 
 Whatever. We were talking about the ole Transcendental 
 Meditation as taught by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Vaj and 
 you both indicate that you have not only different beliefs 
 about what makes TM work, but different beliefs about 
 what TM *IS* in the first place. 

And? 

 Which goes back to MY point that any theory that 
 attempts to explain TM must preserve the anything 
 goes/effortlessness nature of the technique, or 
 it morphs into something else.

No, it doesn't. One could still be practicing TM 
*exactly* as taught and believe what Vaj and I 
believe. You are confusing theory with practice,
and the dogma one believes in with the actuality
of the practice one believes it *about*. I could
believe what I believe and still practice TM 
exactly as it was taught to me; if you can't,
that's your problem, not mine.

   As I pointed 
   out, a perfectly valid TM session could involve thinking 
   the mantra once and being distracted by internal/external 
   phenomena for the next 20 minutes.
   
   You seemed to believe thatthat could NOT be a valid meditation 
   session, or so your good luck with that response suggests.
  
  I don't think Vaj ever suggested that sitting lost in 
  thought wasn't valid. As I read what he said, he's
  suggesting that IN HIS OPINION it isn't particularly
  *effective*. I would agree. That doesn't mean that we
  didn't understand or get the TM dogma that surrounds
  this issue, merely that we don't buy it.
 
 Fair enough, but *I* buyit becuase it DOES seem to work quite 
 effectively for little ole ADHD me.

And that's just FINE, dude. I have never said any
differently. I'm not trying to SELL you my theory.
It's MINE. It doesn't affect you in any way, unless
you allow it to. 
 
  There's a difference. Believing in a different theory
  doesn't mean that the other person is flawed, or that
  they didn't hear and understand the same things you
  did when you were listening to the TM teachers who
  were parroting what they were told to say. It just
  means that the other person has chosen not to take
  what they were told as some kind of cosmic truth, the
  *only* way that things could be described. Vaj is 
  expressing an opinion; he's entitled to that opinion.
  And *his* opinion has no effect whatsoever on you 
  or your own opinions unless you allow it to.
 
 Sure, whatever, but once you start assigning value 
 judgements to one particular experience over another, 
 you're no longer practicing TM.

NOT NECESSARILY. Vaj, as far as I know, DOES NOT 
PRACTICE TM. Neither do I. What we believe about
meditation and what makes a meditation session
effective doesn't affect TM in the slightest.

Are you trying to say that your mind is so weak
that if someone *else* suggests a different way
of looking at meditation and how it works, that
is going to affect how *you* meditate?  :-)

It's THEORY, dude, and furthermore a theory pro-
posed by two people who do *not* practice TM and
probably never will again. We are not trying to
SELL you our theory or convert you to believing
in it. It's just FINE for you to believe what you
believe today. You are reacting as if by even
mentioning our theories we are putting the 
sanctity and purity of *your* meditation in
some kind of jeapardy.

Your position seems to be based on the idea that
different theories of how meditation works might
have cooties and somehow infect those who
hear them and render them incapable of practicing
their meditation the way they were originally 
taught to. Has anything you've ever heard here
or on a.m.t. ever affected how you choose to 
practice TM? If not, then I rest my case. 
Lighten up.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
   On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:07 PM, sparaig wrote:
   
You seemed to believe thatthat could NOT be a valid 
meditation
session, or so your good luck with that response suggests.
   
   This is an erroneous conclusion. It may well be for you a 
   valid  
   meditation in your version of TM style meditation. What that 
   will  
   actually lead to is depression if it is repeated long enough--
   which  
   actually explains a lot. It may well be a fault in this 
   technique.
  
  For what it's worth, I actually agree with Vaj here.
  That does *not* mean that I didn't learn TM properly,
  merely that nearly 40 years of meditation practice
  have suggested other ways of seeing the situation to
  me that I tend to believe more than the dogma that is
  taught in the TM organization.
 
 sure, whatever. But once you start assigning value 
 judgements to one set of experiences over another, 
 you're no longer practicing TM.

Read my lips: I NO LONGER PRACTICE TM.  :-)

But what you're saying isn't true. When it comes to
driving an automobile, I happen to believe that the
speed limits imposed by the French govenment are
about ten kilometers per hour too slow. I definitely
assign a value judgement to that belief. I value 
driving faster more than I value driving at a rate
I consider too slow for traffic conditions. But that
doesn't prevent me from driving below the posted
speed limit *most of the time* because that behavior
saves me a great deal of money that I would otherwise 
spend on speeding fines.

You seem to be saying that the fact that I assign
a value judgement to my belief about what the 
proper speed limit should be and prefer one way
of driving over another, that I have NO CHOICE 
other than to drive faster than that.

Your mind may work that way, but mine doesn't...








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
wrote:
  
  snip 
   Just my two centimes...I'm just trying to suggest
   that there is room for people to believe different
   things about meditation and how it works. Chances
   are that *none* of them are correct. Acting as if
   one is correct and all others are incorrect seems
   to me a great way to develop a lot of negative
   karma, not to evolve.
  
  Whatever. We were talking about the ole Transcendental 
  Meditation as taught by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Vaj and 
  you both indicate that you have not only different beliefs 
  about what makes TM work, but different beliefs about 
  what TM *IS* in the first place. 
 
 And? 
 
  Which goes back to MY point that any theory that 
  attempts to explain TM must preserve the anything 
  goes/effortlessness nature of the technique, or 
  it morphs into something else.
 
 No, it doesn't. One could still be practicing TM 
 *exactly* as taught and believe what Vaj and I 
 believe. You are confusing theory with practice,
 and the dogma one believes in with the actuality
 of the practice one believes it *about*. I could
 believe what I believe and still practice TM 
 exactly as it was taught to me; if you can't,
 that's your problem, not mine.
 

So you believe that you can separate yourself into an innocent 
practioner who disagrees with the explanation that any experience is 
valid during TM practice and a theoretician who does NOT believe this?

So for you, theory, in this context, wouldn't interfere with 
practice, even though your theory directly contradicts the 
instructions?



As I pointed 
out, a perfectly valid TM session could involve thinking 
the mantra once and being distracted by internal/external 
phenomena for the next 20 minutes.

You seemed to believe thatthat could NOT be a valid 
meditation 
session, or so your good luck with that response suggests.
   
   I don't think Vaj ever suggested that sitting lost in 
   thought wasn't valid. As I read what he said, he's
   suggesting that IN HIS OPINION it isn't particularly
   *effective*. I would agree. That doesn't mean that we
   didn't understand or get the TM dogma that surrounds
   this issue, merely that we don't buy it.
  
  Fair enough, but *I* buyit becuase it DOES seem to work quite 
  effectively for little ole ADHD me.
 
 And that's just FINE, dude. I have never said any
 differently. I'm not trying to SELL you my theory.
 It's MINE. It doesn't affect you in any way, unless
 you allow it to. 

I don't accept the theory. You DO accept the theory. I claim that 
your insistence that one experience during TM is automatically better 
than another taints the practice.

  
   There's a difference. Believing in a different theory
   doesn't mean that the other person is flawed, or that
   they didn't hear and understand the same things you
   did when you were listening to the TM teachers who
   were parroting what they were told to say. It just
   means that the other person has chosen not to take
   what they were told as some kind of cosmic truth, the
   *only* way that things could be described. Vaj is 
   expressing an opinion; he's entitled to that opinion.
   And *his* opinion has no effect whatsoever on you 
   or your own opinions unless you allow it to.
  
  Sure, whatever, but once you start assigning value 
  judgements to one particular experience over another, 
  you're no longer practicing TM.
 
 NOT NECESSARILY. Vaj, as far as I know, DOES NOT 
 PRACTICE TM. Neither do I. What we believe about
 meditation and what makes a meditation session
 effective doesn't affect TM in the slightest.
 

How would you know, not being a TMer any more, by your own admission?

 Are you trying to say that your mind is so weak
 that if someone *else* suggests a different way
 of looking at meditation and how it works, that
 is going to affect how *you* meditate?  :-)
 

If I accept it, sure. Innocence is lost when you start assigning 
value judgements. That you don't see this is quite telling.

 It's THEORY, dude, and furthermore a theory pro-
 posed by two people who do *not* practice TM and
 probably never will again. We are not trying to
 SELL you our theory or convert you to believing
 in it. It's just FINE for you to believe what you
 believe today. You are reacting as if by even
 mentioning our theories we are putting the 
 sanctity and purity of *your* meditation in
 some kind of jeapardy.
 

Nope, but I argue that theory and practice during TM are inseparable. 
You can practice TM without ANY kindof theory, but any acceptable 
theory from a TM technique perspective needs to explain things in 
terms of the practice -- that is, the innocence of the technique.

 Your position seems to be based on the idea that
 different theories of how meditation works might

[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
 [...]
   Except, of course, I'm only talking about TM.
  
  So? You have a *theory* as to what constitutes an 
  effective meditation session. that *theory* just 
  happens to be the same one that was TOLD to you 
  by your TM teachers. Vaj has a different theory. 
  You tried to imply that this means he never really 
  learned TM.
  
  You really *don't* GET this, do you?
 
 I don't think YOU get it: when a technique is meant 
 to be easy, innocent, etc., theories that portray one 
 set of experiences as being better than another set, 
 detract from the *innocence* of the technique. 

ONLY if one ACTS on those theories. Otherwise,
they're just theories.

Your position seems to be that a person who
believes as we do has NO CHOICE but to act
on them. And your further theory seems to
be that a TMer *has* to believe all the dogma
and theory that was taught to them about TM
to be really practicing TM. They don't.

 That doesn't say anything about the effectivness of the 
 technique, though of course *I* believe that the innocent 
 technique IS more effective than the non-innocent one.

I have NO PROBLEM with you believing this.

 However, its hard to argue (though you and Vaj seem to) 
 that one can have a theory of TM divorced from the 
 innocence of TM.

We seem to have the ability to believe something 
is true and not necessarily act upon it. T'would
seem that you don't believe that this is possible.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:07 PM, sparaig wrote:

 You seemed to believe thatthat could NOT be a valid 
 meditation
 session, or so your good luck with that response suggests.

This is an erroneous conclusion. It may well be for you a 
valid  
meditation in your version of TM style meditation. What that 
will  
actually lead to is depression if it is repeated long enough--
which  
actually explains a lot. It may well be a fault in this 
technique.
   
   For what it's worth, I actually agree with Vaj here.
   That does *not* mean that I didn't learn TM properly,
   merely that nearly 40 years of meditation practice
   have suggested other ways of seeing the situation to
   me that I tend to believe more than the dogma that is
   taught in the TM organization.
  
  sure, whatever. But once you start assigning value 
  judgements to one set of experiences over another, 
  you're no longer practicing TM.
 
 Read my lips: I NO LONGER PRACTICE TM.  :-)
 
 But what you're saying isn't true. When it comes to
 driving an automobile, I happen to believe that the
 speed limits imposed by the French govenment are
 about ten kilometers per hour too slow. I definitely
 assign a value judgement to that belief. I value 
 driving faster more than I value driving at a rate
 I consider too slow for traffic conditions. But that
 doesn't prevent me from driving below the posted
 speed limit *most of the time* because that behavior
 saves me a great deal of money that I would otherwise 
 spend on speeding fines.
 
 You seem to be saying that the fact that I assign
 a value judgement to my belief about what the 
 proper speed limit should be and prefer one way
 of driving over another, that I have NO CHOICE 
 other than to drive faster than that.
 
 Your mind may work that way, but mine doesn't...


But TM helps the mind to stop working so hard. You're addicted to 
having the mind work all the time, obviously...






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 So you believe that you can separate yourself into an innocent 
 practioner who disagrees with the explanation that any experience is 
 valid during TM practice and a theoretician who does NOT believe this?
 

SHould read:

So you believe that you can separate yourself into an innocent 
practioner who agrees with the explanation that any experience is 
valid during TM practice and a theoretician who does NOT believe this?







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ 
wrote:
  [...]
Except, of course, I'm only talking about TM.
   
   So? You have a *theory* as to what constitutes an 
   effective meditation session. that *theory* just 
   happens to be the same one that was TOLD to you 
   by your TM teachers. Vaj has a different theory. 
   You tried to imply that this means he never really 
   learned TM.
   
   You really *don't* GET this, do you?
  
  I don't think YOU get it: when a technique is meant 
  to be easy, innocent, etc., theories that portray one 
  set of experiences as being better than another set, 
  detract from the *innocence* of the technique. 
 
 ONLY if one ACTS on those theories. Otherwise,
 they're just theories.
 
 Your position seems to be that a person who
 believes as we do has NO CHOICE but to act
 on them. And your further theory seems to
 be that a TMer *has* to believe all the dogma
 and theory that was taught to them about TM
 to be really practicing TM. They don't.

They don't have to accept ANY dogma about TM, but if they start 
assigning greater significance to one set of experiences over 
another, then by definition, they are no longer practicing TM.

 
  That doesn't say anything about the effectivness of the 
  technique, though of course *I* believe that the innocent 
  technique IS more effective than the non-innocent one.
 
 I have NO PROBLEM with you believing this.

Actually, I suspect you do, but whatever.

 
  However, its hard to argue (though you and Vaj seem to) 
  that one can have a theory of TM divorced from the 
  innocence of TM.
 
 We seem to have the ability to believe something 
 is true and not necessarily act upon it. T'would
 seem that you don't believe that this is possible.


In the context of TM? If you assign a significance to one experience 
over another, than the theory IS the practice, at least in the TM 
context, since the practice of TM involves innocent acceptance of all 
sets of experiences during meditation practice as equally valid.

If you assign greater validity to one set of experiences over another 
during TM practice, that is no longer innocent in the practice.

In fact, you and Vaj CANNOT practice TM any more, IMHO because you 
quite literally and consciously reject the technique  by insisting 
that you know better than what happens naturally when you let it 
happen. You've lost your innocence.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

   Which goes back to MY point that any theory that 
   attempts to explain TM must preserve the anything 
   goes/effortlessness nature of the technique, or 
   it morphs into something else.
  
  No, it doesn't. One could still be practicing TM 
  *exactly* as taught and believe what Vaj and I 
  believe. You are confusing theory with practice,
  and the dogma one believes in with the actuality
  of the practice one believes it *about*. I could
  believe what I believe and still practice TM 
  exactly as it was taught to me; if you can't,
  that's your problem, not mine.
 
 So you believe that you can separate yourself into an 
 innocent practioner who disagrees with the explanation 
 that any experience is valid during TM practice and a 
 theoretician who does NOT believe this?

Absolutely. You can't?

 So for you, theory, in this context, wouldn't interfere 
 with practice, even though your theory directly contradicts 
 the instructions?

If I felt that the practice as taught was valuable and
I wanted the benefits of it as taught, I would be able
to practice it as taught even though I didn't believe
ONE WORD of the theory behind it.

I have done exactly this MANY TIMES when attending
teachings given by different spiritual traditions.
I may believe NONE of the theory behind the tech-
niques they teach, but when it comes to practicing
them in the group as they are taught, I practice
them *exactly* as taught. Otherwise I am not giving
them a fair trial.

This is the process of following the instructions,
evaluating the results, and THEN deciding whether
the theory makes sense. You seem to be saying that
one has to buy the theory FIRST in order to be
able to follow the instructions.

snip
  And that's just FINE, dude. I have never said any
  differently. I'm not trying to SELL you my theory.
  It's MINE. It doesn't affect you in any way, unless
  you allow it to. 
 
 I don't accept the theory. You DO accept the theory. I 
 claim that your insistence that one experience during 
 TM is automatically better than another taints the practice.

Exactly HOW? Read my lips again: I DON'T PRACTICE TM.
What's it gonna taint? 

YOU don't agree with my theory. Is it going to taint*
your meditation?

Think this shit through, dude. What you're arguing is
that belief drives experience.

There's a difference. Believing in a different theory
doesn't mean that the other person is flawed, or that
they didn't hear and understand the same things you
did when you were listening to the TM teachers who
were parroting what they were told to say. It just
means that the other person has chosen not to take
what they were told as some kind of cosmic truth, the
*only* way that things could be described. Vaj is 
expressing an opinion; he's entitled to that opinion.
And *his* opinion has no effect whatsoever on you 
or your own opinions unless you allow it to.
   
   Sure, whatever, but once you start assigning value 
   judgements to one particular experience over another, 
   you're no longer practicing TM.
  
  NOT NECESSARILY. Vaj, as far as I know, DOES NOT 
  PRACTICE TM. Neither do I. What we believe about
  meditation and what makes a meditation session
  effective doesn't affect TM in the slightest.
 
 How would you know, not being a TMer any more, by 
 your own admission?

Admission?  Are you suggesting I just confessed
to something?  :-)

I *don't* know. I have beliefs, based on the full
range of meditation techniques I have studied. 

You are still reacting as if I'm trying to SELL you
something because I believe differently than you do.

  Are you trying to say that your mind is so weak
  that if someone *else* suggests a different way
  of looking at meditation and how it works, that
  is going to affect how *you* meditate?  :-)
 
 If I accept it, sure. Innocence is lost when you 
 start assigning value judgements. That you don't 
 see this is quite telling.

That you do is even more telling, IMO.

You are asserting that belief in how TM works
is *essential* to it working properly. Has it
occurred to you that this is directly contrary
to everything you were ever told about TM?

  It's THEORY, dude, and furthermore a theory pro-
  posed by two people who do *not* practice TM and
  probably never will again. We are not trying to
  SELL you our theory or convert you to believing
  in it. It's just FINE for you to believe what you
  believe today. You are reacting as if by even
  mentioning our theories we are putting the 
  sanctity and purity of *your* meditation in
  some kind of jeapardy.
 
 Nope, but I argue that theory and practice during TM 
 are inseparable. 

In other words, in your opinion, belief in the
theory of how TM works is *essential* for it to
be practiced properly. Did I get this right?

 You can practice TM without ANY kind of theory, but 
 any acceptable theory from a TM technique perspective 
 needs to explain things in terms of the practice -- 
 that is, the

[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
 wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ 
 wrote:
   [...]
 Except, of course, I'm only talking about TM.

So? You have a *theory* as to what constitutes an 
effective meditation session. that *theory* just 
happens to be the same one that was TOLD to you 
by your TM teachers. Vaj has a different theory. 
You tried to imply that this means he never really 
learned TM.

You really *don't* GET this, do you?
   
   I don't think YOU get it: when a technique is meant 
   to be easy, innocent, etc., theories that portray one 
   set of experiences as being better than another set, 
   detract from the *innocence* of the technique. 
  
  ONLY if one ACTS on those theories. Otherwise,
  they're just theories.
  
  Your position seems to be that a person who
  believes as we do has NO CHOICE but to act
  on them. And your further theory seems to
  be that a TMer *has* to believe all the dogma
  and theory that was taught to them about TM
  to be really practicing TM. They don't.
 
 They don't have to accept ANY dogma about TM, but if they start 
 assigning greater significance to one set of experiences over 
 another, then by definition, they are no longer practicing TM.

ONLY if they act on it.

   That doesn't say anything about the effectivness of the 
   technique, though of course *I* believe that the innocent 
   technique IS more effective than the non-innocent one.
  
  I have NO PROBLEM with you believing this.
 
 Actually, I suspect you do, but whatever.

That's just your cult paranoia shining through.  :-)








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-16 Thread Robert Gimbel

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
 wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
 On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:07 PM, sparaig wrote:
 
  You seemed to believe thatthat could NOT be a valid 
  meditation
  session, or so your good luck with that response 
suggests.
 
 This is an erroneous conclusion. It may well be for you a 
 valid  
 meditation in your version of TM style meditation. What 
that 
 will  
 actually lead to is depression if it is repeated long 
enough--
 which  
 actually explains a lot. It may well be a fault in this 
 technique.

For what it's worth, I actually agree with Vaj here.
That does *not* mean that I didn't learn TM properly,
merely that nearly 40 years of meditation practice
have suggested other ways of seeing the situation to
me that I tend to believe more than the dogma that is
taught in the TM organization.
   
   sure, whatever. But once you start assigning value 
   judgements to one set of experiences over another, 
   you're no longer practicing TM.
  
  Read my lips: I NO LONGER PRACTICE TM.  :-)
  
  But what you're saying isn't true. When it comes to
  driving an automobile, I happen to believe that the
  speed limits imposed by the French govenment are
  about ten kilometers per hour too slow. I definitely
  assign a value judgement to that belief. I value 
  driving faster more than I value driving at a rate
  I consider too slow for traffic conditions. But that
  doesn't prevent me from driving below the posted
  speed limit *most of the time* because that behavior
  saves me a great deal of money that I would otherwise 
  spend on speeding fines.
  
  You seem to be saying that the fact that I assign
  a value judgement to my belief about what the 
  proper speed limit should be and prefer one way
  of driving over another, that I have NO CHOICE 
  other than to drive faster than that.
  
  Your mind may work that way, but mine doesn't...
 
 
 But TM helps the mind to stop working so hard. You're addicted to 
 having the mind work all the time, obviously...

TM is to transcend thought; Mindfullness occurs in TM when one 
transcends, and becomes mindful of the self.
 Mindfulness is there the whole time with continued practice: it's 
there during both the inward and ourward stroke of meditation; when 
thinking the mantra, or when noticing you're off on a thought and 
coming back to the mantra; or noticing that your just quietly settled 
in the mindfull state of transcendental consciousness, of no-
mantra/no thought.
The whole point of meditation is to get beyond thought.   
  
If one is to become familiar with the infinite, then what does one 
focus on? 
What object can the mind focus on to become infinite? 
The mind focuses on the mantra, and then let's go.
When one let's go completely then awareness arives at the infinite.

 





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Which goes back to MY point that any theory that 
attempts to explain TM must preserve the anything 
goes/effortlessness nature of the technique, or 
it morphs into something else.
   
   No, it doesn't. One could still be practicing TM 
   *exactly* as taught and believe what Vaj and I 
   believe. You are confusing theory with practice,
   and the dogma one believes in with the actuality
   of the practice one believes it *about*. I could
   believe what I believe and still practice TM 
   exactly as it was taught to me; if you can't,
   that's your problem, not mine.
  
  So you believe that you can separate yourself into an 
  innocent practioner who disagrees with the explanation 
  that any experience is valid during TM practice and a 
  theoretician who does NOT believe this?
 
 Absolutely. You can't?
 
  So for you, theory, in this context, wouldn't interfere 
  with practice, even though your theory directly contradicts 
  the instructions?
 
 If I felt that the practice as taught was valuable and
 I wanted the benefits of it as taught, I would be able
 to practice it as taught even though I didn't believe
 ONE WORD of the theory behind it.
 
 I have done exactly this MANY TIMES when attending
 teachings given by different spiritual traditions.
 I may believe NONE of the theory behind the tech-
 niques they teach, but when it comes to practicing
 them in the group as they are taught, I practice
 them *exactly* as taught. Otherwise I am not giving
 them a fair trial.
 
 This is the process of following the instructions,
 evaluating the results, and THEN deciding whether
 the theory makes sense. You seem to be saying that
 one has to buy the theory FIRST in order to be
 able to follow the instructions.

Nope, but rejecting a practice that requires innocence by claiming 
that innocence isn't necessary is rather odd, IMHO.

 
 snip
   And that's just FINE, dude. I have never said any
   differently. I'm not trying to SELL you my theory.
   It's MINE. It doesn't affect you in any way, unless
   you allow it to. 
  
  I don't accept the theory. You DO accept the theory. I 
  claim that your insistence that one experience during 
  TM is automatically better than another taints the practice.
 
 Exactly HOW? Read my lips again: I DON'T PRACTICE TM.
 What's it gonna taint? 

The hypotehtical practice thatyou say you can indulge in at any time 
even though you reject the coreof the practice.

 
 YOU don't agree with my theory. Is it going to taint*
 your meditation?
 
 Think this shit through, dude. What you're arguing is
 that belief drives experience.

To a certain extent, that's always the case. Certainly, in the case 
of a practice where one is *instructed* that no set of experiences is 
more important than any other, to insist that one set IS more 
important is counter to the technique itself.

 
 There's a difference. Believing in a different theory
 doesn't mean that the other person is flawed, or that
 they didn't hear and understand the same things you
 did when you were listening to the TM teachers who
 were parroting what they were told to say. It just
 means that the other person has chosen not to take
 what they were told as some kind of cosmic truth, the
 *only* way that things could be described. Vaj is 
 expressing an opinion; he's entitled to that opinion.
 And *his* opinion has no effect whatsoever on you 
 or your own opinions unless you allow it to.

Sure, whatever, but once you start assigning value 
judgements to one particular experience over another, 
you're no longer practicing TM.
   
   NOT NECESSARILY. Vaj, as far as I know, DOES NOT 
   PRACTICE TM. Neither do I. What we believe about
   meditation and what makes a meditation session
   effective doesn't affect TM in the slightest.
  
  How would you know, not being a TMer any more, by 
  your own admission?
 
 Admission?  Are you suggesting I just confessed
 to something?  :-)

Er, no.

 
 I *don't* know. I have beliefs, based on the full
 range of meditation techniques I have studied. 
 
 You are still reacting as if I'm trying to SELL you
 something because I believe differently than you do.
 

Nope, I'm pointing outthe contradictions inyour own stance.

   Are you trying to say that your mind is so weak
   that if someone *else* suggests a different way
   of looking at meditation and how it works, that
   is going to affect how *you* meditate?  :-)
  
  If I accept it, sure. Innocence is lost when you 
  start assigning value judgements. That you don't 
  see this is quite telling.
 
 That you do is even more telling, IMO.

So you think that innocence, in this context, means that you DO 
assign value judgements?

 
 You are asserting that belief in how TM works
 is *essential* to it working properly. Has it
 occurred to you that this is directly contrary
 to everything you

[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ 
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
  wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ 
  wrote:
[...]
  Except, of course, I'm only talking about TM.
 
 So? You have a *theory* as to what constitutes an 
 effective meditation session. that *theory* just 
 happens to be the same one that was TOLD to you 
 by your TM teachers. Vaj has a different theory. 
 You tried to imply that this means he never really 
 learned TM.
 
 You really *don't* GET this, do you?

I don't think YOU get it: when a technique is meant 
to be easy, innocent, etc., theories that portray one 
set of experiences as being better than another set, 
detract from the *innocence* of the technique. 
   
   ONLY if one ACTS on those theories. Otherwise,
   they're just theories.
   
   Your position seems to be that a person who
   believes as we do has NO CHOICE but to act
   on them. And your further theory seems to
   be that a TMer *has* to believe all the dogma
   and theory that was taught to them about TM
   to be really practicing TM. They don't.
  
  They don't have to accept ANY dogma about TM, but if they start 
  assigning greater significance to one set of experiences over 
  another, then by definition, they are no longer practicing TM.
 
 ONLY if they act on it.

How can one fail to act on thoughts when thoughts are the actions we 
are talking about?

 
That doesn't say anything about the effectivness of the 
technique, though of course *I* believe that the innocent 
technique IS more effective than the non-innocent one.
   
   I have NO PROBLEM with you believing this.
  
  Actually, I suspect you do, but whatever.
 
 That's just your cult paranoia shining through.  :-)


Or yours.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert Gimbel 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ 
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
  wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ 
wrote:
  On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:07 PM, sparaig wrote:
  
   You seemed to believe thatthat could NOT be a valid 
   meditation
   session, or so your good luck with that response 
 suggests.
  
  This is an erroneous conclusion. It may well be for you a 
  valid  
  meditation in your version of TM style meditation. What 
 that 
  will  
  actually lead to is depression if it is repeated long 
 enough--
  which  
  actually explains a lot. It may well be a fault in this 
  technique.
 
 For what it's worth, I actually agree with Vaj here.
 That does *not* mean that I didn't learn TM properly,
 merely that nearly 40 years of meditation practice
 have suggested other ways of seeing the situation to
 me that I tend to believe more than the dogma that is
 taught in the TM organization.

sure, whatever. But once you start assigning value 
judgements to one set of experiences over another, 
you're no longer practicing TM.
   
   Read my lips: I NO LONGER PRACTICE TM.  :-)
   
   But what you're saying isn't true. When it comes to
   driving an automobile, I happen to believe that the
   speed limits imposed by the French govenment are
   about ten kilometers per hour too slow. I definitely
   assign a value judgement to that belief. I value 
   driving faster more than I value driving at a rate
   I consider too slow for traffic conditions. But that
   doesn't prevent me from driving below the posted
   speed limit *most of the time* because that behavior
   saves me a great deal of money that I would otherwise 
   spend on speeding fines.
   
   You seem to be saying that the fact that I assign
   a value judgement to my belief about what the 
   proper speed limit should be and prefer one way
   of driving over another, that I have NO CHOICE 
   other than to drive faster than that.
   
   Your mind may work that way, but mine doesn't...
  
  
  But TM helps the mind to stop working so hard. You're addicted to 
  having the mind work all the time, obviously...
 
 TM is to transcend thought; Mindfullness occurs in TM when one 
 transcends, and becomes mindful of the self.
  Mindfulness is there the whole time with continued practice: it's 
 there during both the inward and ourward stroke of meditation; when 
 thinking the mantra, or when noticing you're off on a thought and 
 coming back to the mantra; or noticing that your just quietly 
settled 
 in the mindfull state of transcendental consciousness, of no-
 mantra/no thought.
 The whole point of meditation is to get beyond thought.   
   
 If one is to become familiar with the infinite, then what does one 
 focus on? 
 What object can the mind focus on to become infinite? 
 The mind focuses on the mantra, and then let's go.
 When one let's go completely then awareness arives at the infinite.


That may be what happens (or not) but its not the point of TM 
practice.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
 
 That doesn't say anything about the effectivness of the 
 technique, though of course *I* believe that the innocent 
 technique IS more effective than the non-innocent one.

I have NO PROBLEM with you believing this.
   
   Actually, I suspect you do, but whatever.
  
  That's just your cult paranoia shining through.  :-)
 
 Or yours.

Well, dude...I'm not the one up at 3:44 a.m. ranting
on the Internet, feeling obviously threatened just
because someone has proposed a different theory about 
meditation than the one he believes in...  :-)








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
 
  On Mar 15, 2006, at 7:00 PM, authfriend wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
   
On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:13 PM, authfriend wrote:
   
 I'm familiar with it in the context of the TM-Sidhis.
 Where is this official movement translation of the
 term to be found in the context of plain-vanilla TM?
   
Steadiness is a popular TMer word for dharana.
  
   Vaj, you're blowing it out your nether regions.
  
  Hey it's Mahesh's trans., not mine, take it up with his nether 
  regions!
  
  Absolute bliss being always there, the experience of happiness
  thus depends upon the degree of steadiness of mind. -MMY
  
  More focus of mind might just make you happier Judy. Try it!
 
 Is this a translation of a Sanskrit phrase where steadiness of
 mind means dharana?

It isn't even a translation; it's from MMY's commentary
on the Gita II:66, as Bob noted.  The term dharana
occurs nowhere in the verse he's commenting on.

And in this specific sentence, in context, MMY isn't
referring to meditation but the *fruit* of meditation
in activity.

Note that to start with, Vaj had claimed that focus
was the official movement translation of dharana.
When I asked where this official translation was to be
found, he switched to claiming steadiness was the
term TMers used for dharana.  When I said this was
nonsense, he produces a quote, apparently intending to
suggest he is documenting the use of steadiness as
a translation of dharana, when it isn't a translation
to begin with and doesn't even refer to meditation.

And he's accusing me of lacking focus of mind?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
 
  In any
  style of meditation where you have an object of focus

 Which excludes TM, since TM doesn't involve focusing.

In terms of process, it is the point you return to 
irregardless.  
Focus here being an english trans. of the Sanskrit dharana 
 or  
focus of attention in the official movement translation 
of 
the word. Since you claimed to be familiar with TM, I assumed 
you would be conversant in their language. Apparently that is 
not the case.
   
   But, what mantra do you return to?
  
  You don't have to be so TM-centric and bigoted, man.
  Many techniques of meditation don't even *use* a
  mantra. But you still come back to something.
 
 I'm aware that many techniques don't use a mantra. I was referring 
to 
 the assumption that one knows what one's mantra is in the first 
 placein the sense that most people would think of knowing. As 
like 
 as not, my mantra is often a vague hum that is only identifiable 
 as my mantra because its the most convenient label handy for 
 whatever it is.
 
  
  IMO it isn't the mantra per se that enables
  TM to work; it's the coming back to,  the element
  of focus (even if it's soft focus, as in TM). The 
  choice of TM mantras was come to by trial and error, 
  and changed radically during MMY's early years. You
  can find them in many books, and chances are that's
  where Maharishi found them. There is nothing partic-
  ularly magical about them.
 
 IMO, its the *process* that enables TM to work. 
 
  
  In other words, you responded to Vaj's point with
  a non-sequitur intended to dismiss it and suggest 
  that TM is best. Again. And again, you're better 
  than that.
  
 
 In other words, you responded to MYpoint with a non-sequitur 
designed 
 to prove that you and Vaj are correct and I am wrong.
 
  Just my two centimes...I'm just trying to suggest
  that there is room for people to believe different
  things about meditation and how it works. Chances
  are that *none* of them are correct. Acting as if
  one is correct and all others are incorrect seems
  to me a great way to develop a lot of negative
  karma, not to evolve.
  
 
 Whatever. We were talking about the ole Transcendental Meditation 
as 
 taught by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Vaj and you both indicate that 
you 
 have not only different beliefs about what makes TM work, but 
 different beliefs about what TM *IS* in the first place. Which goes 
 back to MY point that any theory that attempts to explain TM must 
 preserve the anything goes/effortlessness nature of the technique, 
or 
 it morphs into something else.
 
  snip to
   Insomuch as TM involves awareness, then you can say its 
   mindfulness. Beyond that, depends on the definition of 
   mindfulness. 
  
  Correct. Earlier, I used a more limited definition of 
  mindfulness; but as Vaj and others here seem to be using
  it, it's a term that applies to the application of
  selective attention, period. As such, I would have to
  agree that most forms of meditation, including TM, fall
  into that category.
  
 
 ONly within the most vague and open-ended definition of selective 
 attention.
 
   As I pointed 
   out, a perfectly valid TM session could involve thinking 
   the mantra once and being distracted by internal/external 
   phenomena for the next 20 minutes.
   
   You seemed to believe thatthat could NOT be a valid meditation 
   session, or so your good luck with that response suggests.
  
  I don't think Vaj ever suggested that sitting lost in 
  thought wasn't valid. As I read what he said, he's
  suggesting that IN HIS OPINION it isn't particularly
  *effective*. I would agree. That doesn't mean that we
  didn't understand or get the TM dogma that surrounds
  this issue, merely that we don't buy it.
 
 Fair enough, but *I* buyit becuase it DOES seem to work quite 
 effectively for little ole ADHD me.
 
  
  There's a difference. Believing in a different theory
  doesn't mean that the other person is flawed, or that
  they didn't hear and understand the same things you
  did when you were listening to the TM teachers who
  were parroting what they were told to say. It just
  means that the other person has chosen not to take
  what they were told as some kind of cosmic truth, the
  *only* way that things could be described. Vaj is 
  expressing an opinion; he's entitled to that opinion.
  And *his* opinion has no effect whatsoever on you 
  or your own opinions unless you allow it to.
 
 Sure, whatever, but once you start assigning value judgements to 
 one particular experience over another, you're no longer practicing 
 TM.
 
 My point with Judy as well...

Except that I wasn't making value judgments, as I've
already pointed out.







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-16 Thread Vaj


On Mar 16, 2006, at 10:13 AM, authfriend wrote:

 Note that to start with, Vaj had claimed that focus
 was the official movement translation of dharana.
 When I asked where this official translation was to be
 found, he switched to claiming steadiness was the
 term TMers used for dharana.  When I said this was
 nonsense, he produces a quote, apparently intending to
 suggest he is documenting the use of steadiness as
 a translation of dharana, when it isn't a translation
 to begin with and doesn't even refer to meditation.

No, merely commenting on your belief that the word steadiness was not  
used in connection with tm/tmers.

He may or may not be referring to dharana in this instance--I don't  
really care--it certainly fits experientially for those familiar with  
this state of steadiness and inner focus. However he clearly uses  
that word in his own translation of the yoga-sutra of Patanjali as a  
description of dharana. It is actually helpful if you can trace such  
movement buzzwords to their original Sanskrit, as it can tell you a  
lot more, esp. since they are often used in rather nebulous ways.



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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ 
wrote:
  
  That doesn't say anything about the effectivness of the 
  technique, though of course *I* believe that the innocent 
  technique IS more effective than the non-innocent one.
 
 I have NO PROBLEM with you believing this.

Actually, I suspect you do, but whatever.
   
   That's just your cult paranoia shining through.  :-)
  
  Or yours.
 
 Well, dude...I'm not the one up at 3:44 a.m. ranting
 on the Internet, feeling obviously threatened just
 because someone has proposed a different theory about 
 meditation than the one he believes in...  :-)


Huh. The fact that Ihave trouble sleeping at night is construed as a 
sign of what? Cult paranoia? OK, sure.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
 wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ 
 wrote:
   
   That doesn't say anything about the effectivness of 
the 
   technique, though of course *I* believe that the 
innocent 
   technique IS more effective than the non-innocent one.
  
  I have NO PROBLEM with you believing this.
 
 Actually, I suspect you do, but whatever.

That's just your cult paranoia shining through.  :-)
   
   Or yours.
  
  Well, dude...I'm not the one up at 3:44 a.m. ranting
  on the Internet, feeling obviously threatened just
  because someone has proposed a different theory about 
  meditation than the one he believes in...  :-)
 
 Huh. The fact that Ihave trouble sleeping at night is 
 construed as a sign of what? Cult paranoia? OK, sure.

I've heard that insomnia is often a side effect
of lack of focus in meditation. 

Joke, dude.  Joke.

;-)







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
  
   On Mar 15, 2006, at 7:00 PM, authfriend wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:

 On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:13 PM, authfriend wrote:

  I'm familiar with it in the context of the TM-Sidhis.
  Where is this official movement translation of the
  term to be found in the context of plain-vanilla TM?

 Steadiness is a popular TMer word for dharana.
   
Vaj, you're blowing it out your nether regions.
   
   Hey it's Mahesh's trans., not mine, take it up with his nether 
   regions!
   
   Absolute bliss being always there, the experience of happiness
   thus depends upon the degree of steadiness of mind. -MMY
   
   More focus of mind might just make you happier Judy. Try it!
  
  Is this a translation of a Sanskrit phrase where steadiness of
  mind means dharana?
 
 It isn't even a translation; it's from MMY's commentary
 on the Gita II:66, as Bob noted.  The term dharana
 occurs nowhere in the verse he's commenting on.
 
 And in this specific sentence, in context, MMY isn't
 referring to meditation but the *fruit* of meditation
 in activity.
 
 Note that to start with, Vaj had claimed that focus
 was the official movement translation of dharana.
 When I asked where this official translation was to be
 found, he switched to claiming steadiness was the
 term TMers used for dharana.  When I said this was
 nonsense, he produces a quote, apparently intending to
 suggest he is documenting the use of steadiness as
 a translation of dharana, when it isn't a translation
 to begin with and doesn't even refer to meditation.
 
 And he's accusing me of lacking focus of mind?


Gotcha (now what were we talking about?*)

*ADHD reference goes here.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ 
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
  wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ 
  wrote:

That doesn't say anything about the effectivness of 
 the 
technique, though of course *I* believe that the 
 innocent 
technique IS more effective than the non-innocent one.
   
   I have NO PROBLEM with you believing this.
  
  Actually, I suspect you do, but whatever.
 
 That's just your cult paranoia shining through.  :-)

Or yours.
   
   Well, dude...I'm not the one up at 3:44 a.m. ranting
   on the Internet, feeling obviously threatened just
   because someone has proposed a different theory about 
   meditation than the one he believes in...  :-)
  
  Huh. The fact that Ihave trouble sleeping at night is 
  construed as a sign of what? Cult paranoia? OK, sure.
 
 I've heard that insomnia is often a side effect
 of lack of focus in meditation. 
 
 Joke, dude.  Joke.
 
 ;-)


Actually, in Tm terms, it might be the other way around: lack of 
proper sleep can lead to dullness in meditation...






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[...]
 He may or may not be referring to dharana in this instance--I don't  
 really care--it certainly fits experientially for those familiar 
with  
 this state of steadiness and inner focus. However he clearly uses  
 that word in his own translation of the yoga-sutra of Patanjali as a  
 description of dharana. 

Where does he do this?

It is actually helpful if you can trace such  
 movement buzzwords to their original Sanskrit, as it can tell you a  
 lot more, esp. since they are often used in rather nebulous ways.


Perhaps it can, but again, where does he use steadiness of mind when 
translating dharana?





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ 
wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
 On Mar 15, 2006, at 11:36 AM, sparaig wrote:
 
  Huh, but one can have the outward stroke for the full 
  20 minutes of TM practice and still be practicing TM 
  absolutely correctly.
 
 Good luck with that!

So Judy and I have been correct: you really never learned TM, 
regardless of what classes/courses you took on the subject.
   
   So you believe that to have learned TM properly,
   you have to believe all the *dogma* about TM that
   was taught to you?
   
   That's what you're saying, in effect. What you've
   just said isn't about the mechanics of TM, but
   about what you were told in the lectures *about*
   TM. It's THEORY. Vaj has a *different* theory,
   based on his subsequent experience. I think that
   in the biz, that's known as an OPINION.  :-)
  
  Theoretical or not, I was taught that that particular experience 
  during TM practice was just as valid as any other. Vaj was 
  implying (and later clarified) that its not a good experience.
 
 Or possibly not the most effective experience. Yes,
 he did. And that is his OPINION, based on experience
 with TM and with other techniques, and with a wide
 range of teachings. Him believing that does NOT
 imply that he really never learned TM.
 
 Do you GET this, man? He could have learned exactly
 as you did, believed it for years, and then *changed
 his mind*, coming to a different conclusion, right?

Two different issues are getting confused here: (1)
what TM as taught by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi involves,
and (2) to what degree TMATBMMY is effective.

When the discussion started, the issue was (1).  Vaj
had claimed that TMATBMMY required effort.  Lawson
and I were disputing that claim.

Vaj said:

 I like Asanga's definition of mindfulness which shows how
 appropriate the description is in regards to manasika-japa/TM:

 What is mindfulness? The non-forgetfulness of the mind with
 respect to a familiar object, having the function of non-
 distraction.

 In the case of manasika-japa/TM the global conditioned 'familiarity'
 is with the mantra and non-distraction would refer to the
 vyuttana or outward, distracted tendency of the outward stroke. 
 Since this so precisely and accurately applies, what else need be 
 said?

Vaj *appeared* to be saying here that TMATBMMY required
mindfulness, in the sense of exerting effort not to
forget the mantra, suggesting this so obviously applies
to TMATBMMY that nothing else need be said.

At this point Lawson noted that according to TMATBMMY,
it was perfectly OK to be lost in thought throughout
the TM session--in other words, that mindfulness
does *not* apply to TMATBMMY.

Vaj's Good luck with that response either (A) meant
that being lost in thought was *not* OK per TMATBMMY,
or (B) that practicing TMATBMMY was not going to 
produce results as good as those from a technique
involving mindfulness.

(A) would simply be incorrect; (B) would be a non
sequitur, or at best a change of subject, a different
issue entirely from that of whether TMATBMMY involves
effort.

(B) would *also* appear to be an admission on Vaj's
part that his mindfulness quote does *not* apply
to TMATBMMY, completely contrary to his earlier assertion
that the quote precisely and accurately applies.

In saying Vaj never learned TM properly, Lawson was
assuming Vaj meant (A), not (B).

*You*, Barry, are assuming that Lawson understood
Vaj to be saying (B) and are chastising him for
insisting that TM dogma is *correct*, when he was
merely pointing out what TM dogma IS.

You make this mistake ALL THE TIME.

   Are you so weak in your *own* practice that you
   have to suggest that anyone who doesn't believe
   the same dogma you believe is doing TM wrong?
  
  What dogma? The dogma that says that any ole experience 
  during TM practice is as good as any other?
 
 YES!!!  That is dogma. You were TAUGHT this. WE, as
 TM teachers, taught it to you. It isn't necessarily
 Truth, with a capital 'T.' It's just what we were
 taught to say. I believed it at the time, when I said
 it. I no longer do. That doesn't mean that I really
 never learned TM. Do you GET this distinction?

It might well mean you never learned TMATBMMY properly.
It might well mean you believed the dogma, but
because you weren't *experiencing* effortlessness, not
having quite gotten the knack of it, you later decided
the dogma that TM is effortless was wrong.

snip






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
wrote:
snip
   There's a difference. Believing in a different theory
   doesn't mean that the other person is flawed, or that
   they didn't hear and understand the same things you
   did when you were listening to the TM teachers who
   were parroting what they were told to say. It just
   means that the other person has chosen not to take
   what they were told as some kind of cosmic truth, the
   *only* way that things could be described. Vaj is 
   expressing an opinion; he's entitled to that opinion.
   And *his* opinion has no effect whatsoever on you 
   or your own opinions unless you allow it to.
  
  Sure, whatever, but once you start assigning value 
  judgements to one particular experience over another, 
  you're no longer practicing TM.
 
 NOT NECESSARILY.

Yes, NECESSARILY.  TM as taught by Maharishi Mahesh
Yogi does not involve assigning value judgments to
one particular experience over another.

 Vaj, as far as I know, DOES NOT 
 PRACTICE TM. Neither do I. What we believe about
 meditation and what makes a meditation session
 effective doesn't affect TM in the slightest.

Non sequitur/straw man, as is the rest of your
rant. Nobody suggested that what you and Vaj believe
affects TM.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

snip
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:

  sure, whatever. But once you start assigning value 
  judgements to one set of experiences over another, 
  you're no longer practicing TM.
 
 Read my lips: I NO LONGER PRACTICE TM.  :-)

Non sequitur/straw man.

*If* one assigns value judgments to one set of 
experiences over another, one is no longer
practicing TM.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ 
wrote:
  [...]
Except, of course, I'm only talking about TM.
   
   So? You have a *theory* as to what constitutes an 
   effective meditation session. that *theory* just 
   happens to be the same one that was TOLD to you 
   by your TM teachers. Vaj has a different theory. 
   You tried to imply that this means he never really 
   learned TM.
   
   You really *don't* GET this, do you?
  
  I don't think YOU get it: when a technique is meant 
  to be easy, innocent, etc., theories that portray one 
  set of experiences as being better than another set, 
  detract from the *innocence* of the technique. 
 
 ONLY if one ACTS on those theories. Otherwise,
 they're just theories.
 
 Your position seems to be that a person who
 believes as we do has NO CHOICE but to act
 on them.

It would be virtually impossible not to act on
them, i.e., to exert some subtle effort to have
*this* experience rather than *that* experience
during meditation.

In fact, you would have to exert effort *not* to
exert effort.

 And your further theory seems to
 be that a TMer *has* to believe all the dogma
 and theory that was taught to them about TM
 to be really practicing TM. They don't.

To practice TM as taught by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi,
you have to follow the instructions given by
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, one of which is not to
value one experience over another.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
snip
  They don't have to accept ANY dogma about TM, but if they start 
  assigning greater significance to one set of experiences over 
  another, then by definition, they are no longer practicing TM.
 
 ONLY if they act on it.

Assigning greater significance to one set of
experiences over another *IS* acting on it.

Assigning is an action, dude.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
snip
That's just your cult paranoia shining through.  :-)
   
   Or yours.
  
  Well, dude...I'm not the one up at 3:44 a.m. ranting
  on the Internet, feeling obviously threatened just
  because someone has proposed a different theory about 
  meditation than the one he believes in...  :-)
 
 Huh. The fact that Ihave trouble sleeping at night is construed as a 
 sign of what? Cult paranoia? OK, sure.

This discussion is making *me* sleepy, and it's 11:50
in the morning...







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-16 Thread Robert Gimbel

 
 When the discussion started, the issue was (1).  Vaj
had claimed that TMATBMMY required effort.  Lawson
and I were disputing that claim.

Vaj said:

 I like Asanga's definition of mindfulness which shows how
 appropriate the description is in regards to manasika-japa/TM:

 What is mindfulness? The non-forgetfulness of the mind with
 respect to a familiar object, having the function of non-
 distraction.

 In the case of manasika-japa/TM the global conditioned 'familiarity'
 is with the mantra and non-distraction would refer to the
 vyuttana or outward, distracted tendency of the outward stroke.
 Since this so precisely and accurately applies, what else need be
 said?

One gains mindfulness through the practice of TM.
One gains non-forgetfulness through the practice of TM.
Experiencing subltle states of the mantra, requires the letting go of 
effort. We don't pound the mantra. We don't mind if the mantra fades 
or slips away. We take it as it comes.
We don't mind if the mind is off on a thought; when we realize we are 
off on a thought, we quietly come back to the mantra. Just the 
intention to think the mantra is enough. We never have to think the 
mantra 'clearly'.
The whole practice of TM is to develope mindfulness of the whole 
process, inward stroke and refining of the mantra, outward stroke- 
realizing we're off on a thought and just the intention of coming 
back to the mantra. And the experience of no mantra/no thought- non-
forgetfulness of pure consciousness or the Light of God, a term 
Maharishi has been using lately, harmonizing with the Christian 
teaching of the Kingdom of Heaven Within.
Also, the sychrony of brain function, left and right hemispheres, 
becoming in sync, provides the whole brain functioning that produces 
the experience of mindfulness, the experience of non-forgetfullness...
Eckart Tolle mentions some simple techniques in his writings also;
He says just being aware the energy flowing through the body, or just 
being aware of the breath- he says the whole point is to bring the 
attention away from the mind- to just innocently watch the breath- 
how it just goes by itself, or to just feel the energy in the body.
Feeling the body is also an instruction of Maharishi's, when there is 
an overpowering thought, and it's difficult to think the mantra 
effortlessly; and that allowing the attention to be drawn to an area 
of the body which seems to be the source of the tension of release, 
can facilitate the release of the unwinding of the physical area or 
emotion held there...







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-16 Thread defenders_of_bhakti

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  We don't pound the mantra. We don't mind if the mantra fades 
  or slips away. We take it as it comes.
  We don't mind if the mind is off on a thought; when we realize we
  are off on a thought, we quietly come back to the mantra. Just the 
  intention to think the mantra is enough. We never have to think 
  the mantra 'clearly'.
 
 For the record, my experience is that the realization
 that I was off on a thought is enough to evoke the mantra;
 there's no intervening intention to think it.

IOW you are NOT DOING it - you realize it's just HAPPENING BY ITSELF,
once you have started. The Mantra comes by itself, it goes by itself,
and it returns by itself,once the awareness of no-mantra came by
itself. That, I suppose is your experience - spontaneaus meditation,
just happening by itself.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert Gimbel 
 babajii_99@ wrote:
 
 [I wrote:]
 
When the discussion started, the issue was (1).  Vaj
had claimed that TMATBMMY required effort.  Lawson
and I were disputing that claim.
   
Vaj said:
   
 I like Asanga's definition of mindfulness which shows how
 appropriate the description is in regards to manasika-
japa/TM:

 What is mindfulness? The non-forgetfulness of the mind with
 respect to a familiar object, having the function of non-
 distraction.

 In the case of manasika-japa/TM the global 
 conditioned 'familiarity' is with the mantra and non-
 distraction would refer to the vyuttana or outward,
 distracted tendency of the outward stroke. Since this so 
 precisely and accurately applies, what else need be said?
  
  One gains mindfulness through the practice of TM.
  One gains non-forgetfulness through the practice of TM.
 
 Exactly.  In the context of TM, the quote would apply
 as a DEscription, not a PREscription.
 
  Experiencing subltle states of the mantra, requires the letting 
go 
  of effort.
 
 However, this should not be understood to mean
 that we make an effort to let go!
 
  We don't pound the mantra. We don't mind if the mantra fades 
  or slips away. We take it as it comes.
  We don't mind if the mind is off on a thought; when we realize we
  are off on a thought, we quietly come back to the mantra. Just 
the 
  intention to think the mantra is enough. We never have to think 
  the mantra 'clearly'.
 
 For the record, my experience is that the realization
 that I was off on a thought is enough to evoke the mantra;
 there's no intervening intention to think it.


My own belief is that this is ALWAYS the case, but we may not be 
aware of it, at least at first, due to our inexperience with subtler 
states of the thinking process.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, defenders_of_bhakti 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
   We don't pound the mantra. We don't mind if the mantra fades 
   or slips away. We take it as it comes.
   We don't mind if the mind is off on a thought; when we realize 
we
   are off on a thought, we quietly come back to the mantra. Just 
the 
   intention to think the mantra is enough. We never have to 
think 
   the mantra 'clearly'.
  
  For the record, my experience is that the realization
  that I was off on a thought is enough to evoke the mantra;
  there's no intervening intention to think it.
 
 IOW you are NOT DOING it - you realize it's just HAPPENING BY 
ITSELF,
 once you have started. The Mantra comes by itself, it goes by 
itself,
 and it returns by itself,once the awareness of no-mantra came by
 itself. That, I suppose is your experience - spontaneaus meditation,
 just happening by itself.


Philisophical point: is it possible for someone in CC to practice 
anything OTHER THAN Transcendental Meditation?







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-16 Thread defenders_of_bhakti

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 Philisophical point: is it possible for someone in CC to practice 
 anything OTHER THAN Transcendental Meditation?

Completely depends on your definition of TM: If you define TM from the
result, i.e. transcending, then he is doing it. If you define it from
the POV of spontaneity, that is, all meditation that is completely
spontaneaus is TM, then he is doing it all the time. If you define it
from its technicalites, like using a specific Mantra etc, doing it 20
min twice a day, he's probably not doing it most of the time.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, defenders_of_bhakti 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
   We don't pound the mantra. We don't mind if the mantra fades 
   or slips away. We take it as it comes.
   We don't mind if the mind is off on a thought; when we realize 
we
   are off on a thought, we quietly come back to the mantra. Just 
the 
   intention to think the mantra is enough. We never have to 
think 
   the mantra 'clearly'.
  
  For the record, my experience is that the realization
  that I was off on a thought is enough to evoke the mantra;
  there's no intervening intention to think it.
 
 IOW you are NOT DOING it - you realize it's just HAPPENING BY 
ITSELF,
 once you have started. The Mantra comes by itself, it goes by 
itself,
 and it returns by itself,once the awareness of no-mantra came by
 itself. That, I suppose is your experience - spontaneaus meditation,
 just happening by itself.

Yup.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert Gimbel 
  babajii_99@ wrote:
  
  [I wrote:]
  
 When the discussion started, the issue was (1).  Vaj
 had claimed that TMATBMMY required effort.  Lawson
 and I were disputing that claim.

 Vaj said:

  I like Asanga's definition of mindfulness which shows how
  appropriate the description is in regards to manasika-
 japa/TM:
 
  What is mindfulness? The non-forgetfulness of the mind 
with
  respect to a familiar object, having the function of non-
  distraction.
 
  In the case of manasika-japa/TM the global 
  conditioned 'familiarity' is with the mantra and non-
  distraction would refer to the vyuttana or outward,
  distracted tendency of the outward stroke. Since this 
so 
  precisely and accurately applies, what else need be said?
   
   One gains mindfulness through the practice of TM.
   One gains non-forgetfulness through the practice of TM.
  
  Exactly.  In the context of TM, the quote would apply
  as a DEscription, not a PREscription.
  
   Experiencing subltle states of the mantra, requires the letting 
 go 
   of effort.
  
  However, this should not be understood to mean
  that we make an effort to let go!
  
   We don't pound the mantra. We don't mind if the mantra fades 
   or slips away. We take it as it comes.
   We don't mind if the mind is off on a thought; when we realize 
we
   are off on a thought, we quietly come back to the mantra. Just 
 the 
   intention to think the mantra is enough. We never have to 
think 
   the mantra 'clearly'.
  
  For the record, my experience is that the realization
  that I was off on a thought is enough to evoke the mantra;
  there's no intervening intention to think it.
 
 My own belief is that this is ALWAYS the case, but we may not be 
 aware of it, at least at first, due to our inexperience with 
 subtler states of the thinking process.

That's *exactly* what I think.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ 
wrote:
snip
   For the record, my experience is that the realization
   that I was off on a thought is enough to evoke the mantra;
   there's no intervening intention to think it.
  
  My own belief is that this is ALWAYS the case, but we may not be 
  aware of it, at least at first, due to our inexperience with 
  subtler states of the thinking process.
 
 That's *exactly* what I think.

To elaborate a bit: I don't think one ever receives
a mantra (at least a bija mantra of the kind TM uses).
I think the bija mantras are something like resonant
frequencies of the sound of paying attention (or the
process of observation), which are always present on
subtle levels of the mind; and that one's attention is
called to one of these frequencies on the gross level
of speech by the teacher when one is initiated.

To put one's attention on the mantra is thus, in effect,
to pay attention *to the paying of attention*.  Or to
put it another way, one is observing the process of
observation itself; the process of observation becomes
the object of observation.







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-16 Thread Vaj


On Mar 16, 2006, at 1:25 PM, defenders_of_bhakti wrote:

 The Mantra comes by itself, it goes by itself,
 and it returns by itself,once the awareness of no-mantra came by
 itself.

And this is linked to the idea of memory, smrti. Interestingly this  
same word, smrti, is also the Sanskrit word for mindfulness.



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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-16 Thread defenders_of_bhakti

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Mar 16, 2006, at 1:25 PM, defenders_of_bhakti wrote:
 
  The Mantra comes by itself, it goes by itself,
  and it returns by itself,once the awareness of no-mantra came by
  itself.
 
 And this is linked to the idea of memory, smrti. Interestingly this  
 same word, smrti, is also the Sanskrit word for mindfulness.

Sure, there is a memory of the mantra and the process, otherwise, how
could you come back to the mantra? But the memory is not continously
held. The whole process of the mantra getting refined is guided by
bhudi, the refined intellect/intuition - who distinguishes between
different levels of thought/mantra - automatically, i.e. without the
involvement of our mind (manas), which would be the agency of
interference or manipulation.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-16 Thread Marek Reavis

Comment below:

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
**SNIP**
For the record, my experience is that the realization
that I was off on a thought is enough to evoke the mantra;
there's no intervening intention to think it.
   
   My own belief is that this is ALWAYS the case, but we may not be 
   aware of it, at least at first, due to our inexperience with 
   subtler states of the thinking process.
  
  That's *exactly* what I think.
 
 To elaborate a bit: I don't think one ever receives
 a mantra (at least a bija mantra of the kind TM uses).
 I think the bija mantras are something like resonant
 frequencies of the sound of paying attention (or the
 process of observation), which are always present on
 subtle levels of the mind; and that one's attention is
 called to one of these frequencies on the gross level
 of speech by the teacher when one is initiated.
 
 To put one's attention on the mantra is thus, in effect,
 to pay attention *to the paying of attention*.  Or to
 put it another way, one is observing the process of
 observation itself; the process of observation becomes
 the object of observation.

**END**

Very nicely put.  And, once one becomes familiar with paying attention
to attention (either vis-a-vis this type of meditation or,
undoubtedly, many other methods), attention itself (consciousness
itself) becomes dominant; or more exactly, becomes consciously
dominant.  It was dominant all the time, anyway, because without it
nothing is.

There is a Russian philosopher from the late 19th century (whose name
I haven't been able to remember for some time now -- he wasn't
translated into English until the early 60s and I didn't read him
until sometime in the late 80s and then promptly lost track of the one
book of his I had) who, speaking about painting, made the observation
that perception itself gave pleasure but that the habits of ordinary
life dulled the individual's appreciation of their own perception. 
Painting, he argued, -- Art -- brought the individual into contact
with their own act of perception through the intermediary of the
artist and the artist's abstraction of the ordinary world perceived. 
The painting existed in a different reality than the quotidian world
of experience and (ideally, at least) forced the viewer into the
experience of his own experiencing by the fact that it was different,
even though it depicted ordinary objects.

Some art can transport the viewer into a more refined awareness,
definitely.  At some point it seems almost anything and everything can.  

The Sanskrit term nilimpa means painted one -- a God.  Yadvare
nikhila nilimpa parishad . . .






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-16 Thread qntmpkt

--- Comment on statement below that mantras are naturally on subtle
levels. Yes, but only insofar as the names of the Gods are present,
universally, since the TM mantras are the seed names of the Gods. But
going back to Plato, he believed that Forms are present naturally as
archtypical concepts in the human psyche, a concept brought into
modern times by mathematicians, since mathematics is thought to be
already present in Universal Mind, just awaiting to be discovered,
rather than invented.
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ 
 wrote:
 snip
For the record, my experience is that the realization
that I was off on a thought is enough to evoke the mantra;
there's no intervening intention to think it.
   
   My own belief is that this is ALWAYS the case, but we may not be 
   aware of it, at least at first, due to our inexperience with 
   subtler states of the thinking process.
  
  That's *exactly* what I think.
 
 To elaborate a bit: I don't think one ever receives
 a mantra (at least a bija mantra of the kind TM uses).
 I think the bija mantras are something like resonant
 frequencies of the sound of paying attention (or the
 process of observation), which are always present on
 subtle levels of the mind; and that one's attention is
 called to one of these frequencies on the gross level
 of speech by the teacher when one is initiated.
 
 To put one's attention on the mantra is thus, in effect,
 to pay attention *to the paying of attention*.  Or to
 put it another way, one is observing the process of
 observation itself; the process of observation becomes
 the object of observation.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-15 Thread cardemaister


 
 At Estes Park, M quoted the Vedas as saying, Be easy to us with 
gentle
 effort.


Somehow sounds to me like Rgveda. Compare to the last
line of the first suukta (Agni):

sacasvaa naH svastaye (Abide with us for our well-being.)
(Macdonell)





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Mar 14, 2006, at 6:05 PM, sparaig wrote:
 
  But even someportion of some concentrative technique is 
effortless so
  what is the difference then? MMY has set up a training procedure 
that
  helps bring people to a state of letting better than 
concentration,
  but if someone using some slight effort in their practice, that's 
how
  it is. You can't be dilligent about getting rid of effort! And to 
me,
  assigning a value-judgement to the effortlessness/non-
effortlessness
  of their practice, assuming that they follow the instructions, is
  definitely a value-judgement.
 
 Here's some more evidence of subtle effort for positive support of
 the practice of TM (from an old post here). It actually involved 
 your post. These are classic elements of mindfulness (Rick uses the 
 word attentiveness) to prevent laxity, a common, helpful element 
 in numerous forms of meditation:

Vaj, Rick says explicitly in what you quote that effort
is inappropriate even at subtle levels.

I don't know what he means by either attentiveness
or laxity, and I wish he'd expand a bit.  I can't
figure out what they would have to do with TM other
than following vs. not following instructions.

Rick says attentiveness is a remedy for allowing the
the mind to just mess around, but that doesn't really
clarify.

He also says he thinks cold baths and sitting without
back support were intended to combat laxity, but both
of these are conditions set prior to practice, not
involving the practice itself.

Two other things:

First, Rick's account is of one of the six-month
courses, and the instructions given may or may not
be applicable for everyday meditation for rank-and-
filers.

Second, the quote from the Vedas, Be easy to us with
gentle effort, also requires context.  Who is speaking
to whom?  Who is supposed to be easy to whom, and
under what circumstances?  Without that information,
I don't see how one can assert that the fact that the
words gentle effort are used in the quote means
MMY was saying one is supposed to use gentle effort
during TM practice.




 [FairfieldLife] TM  Laxity, was: For Vaj Re:Pitta-aggravating 
mantras
 Rick Archer
 Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:32:08 -0700
 
 on 6/25/05 9:49 AM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   It would be interesting to hear others experiences in the area 
of TM
   and laxity.
  
   Well, aside from the advice given that people who find 
themselves  
 sleeping a
   lot during TM
   should sleep more BEFORE TM?
  
   BTW, I go through periods where I sleep a lot during program, 
and  
 periods
   where I don't
   seem to sleep much. What is your explanation for that other 
than  
 MMY's, that
   the
   condition of my nervous system is different from time to time?
 
 On the Santa Barbara ATR (winter 71-72) I told M that I fell 
asleep  
 in most
 of my meditations. He said Some physical weakness. Try to remove 
the
 cause.
 
 On my 6 month course (Courcheval, Spring-Fall 1975) M said that he  
 was going
 to try to turn us into yogis in 6 months. Two things he recommended 
were
 cold baths and sitting up without back support in meditation. I 
think  
 both
 of these, especially the latter, were prescriptions to combat 
laxity.  
 (He
 also said we were in a race or a contest to see who could purify the
 fastest, and to help us he had us fasting and trying all sorts of  
 healers
 brought in from around Europe).
 
 I think the no effort thing is most relevant to grosser levels of
 experience, i.e., new meditators. At subtle levels effort also isn't
 appropriate, but attentiveness is. The advanced technique where 
you  
 focus on
 the heart area is certainly a form of attentiveness. I also find 
that  
 some
 gentle attentiveness vs. allowing the mind to just mess around 
makes  
 a big
 difference in terms of clarity and frequency of transcending.
 
 At Estes Park, M quoted the Vedas as saying, Be easy to us with 
gentle
 effort.







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?


On Mar 15, 2006, at 10:23 AM, authfriend wrote:

 Vaj, Rick says explicitly in what you quote that effort
 is inappropriate even at subtle levels.

 I don't know what he means by either attentiveness
 or laxity, and I wish he'd expand a bit.  I can't
 figure out what they would have to do with TM other
 than following vs. not following instructions.

It's just nitpicking and semantics to keep splitting hairs over words  
when the meaning is clear to those who practice meditation. In any  
style of meditation where you have an object of focus--WHATEVER that  
object may be, the subtle mechanics will require that you maintain  
some species of global mindfulness in order to be able to meditate. I  
like Asanga's definition of mindfulness which shows how appropriate  
the description is in regards to manasika-japa/TM:

What is mindfulness? The non-forgetfulness of the mind with respect  
to a familiar object, having the function of non-distraction.

In the case of manasika-japa/TM the global conditioned 'familiarity'  
is with the mantra and non-distraction would refer to the vyuttana  
or outward, distracted tendency of the outward stroke. Since this  
so precisely and accurately applies, what else need be said?


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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-15 Thread sparaig

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Mar 15, 2006, at 10:23 AM, authfriend wrote:
 
  Vaj, Rick says explicitly in what you quote that effort
  is inappropriate even at subtle levels.
 
  I don't know what he means by either attentiveness
  or laxity, and I wish he'd expand a bit.  I can't
  figure out what they would have to do with TM other
  than following vs. not following instructions.
 
 It's just nitpicking and semantics to keep splitting hairs over 
words  
 when the meaning is clear to those who practice meditation. In any  
 style of meditation where you have an object of focus--WHATEVER 
that  
 object may be, the subtle mechanics will require that you maintain  
 some species of global mindfulness in order to be able to meditate. 
I  
 like Asanga's definition of mindfulness which shows how 
appropriate  
 the description is in regards to manasika-japa/TM:
 
 What is mindfulness? The non-forgetfulness of the mind with 
respect  
 to a familiar object, having the function of non-distraction.
 
 In the case of manasika-japa/TM the global 
conditioned 'familiarity'  
 is with the mantra and non-distraction would refer to the 
vyuttana  
 or outward, distracted tendency of the outward stroke. Since 
this  
 so precisely and accurately applies, what else need be said?


Huh, but one can have the outward stroke for the full 20 minutes of 
TM practice and still be practicing TM absolutely correctly.

WHere's the non-forgetfulness there?






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?


On Mar 15, 2006, at 11:36 AM, sparaig wrote:

 Huh, but one can have the outward stroke for the full 20 minutes of
 TM practice and still be practicing TM absolutely correctly.

Good luck with that!



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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Mar 15, 2006, at 10:23 AM, authfriend wrote:
 
  Vaj, Rick says explicitly in what you quote that effort
  is inappropriate even at subtle levels.
 
  I don't know what he means by either attentiveness
  or laxity, and I wish he'd expand a bit.  I can't
  figure out what they would have to do with TM other
  than following vs. not following instructions.
 
 It's just nitpicking and semantics to keep splitting hairs over
 words when the meaning is clear to those who practice meditation.

Obviously they aren't clear to me, and I practice
meditation.

The point is, Vaj, words can mean different things to
different people, especially to different people
who practice different types of meditation.  The only
way to come to a common understanding of the terms is
to nitpick and split hairs and analyze the semantics
(and even then you may not succeed).

You like to assume what *you* understand the words to
mean is what everybody else understands and therefore
they apply in the same way to every type of meditation.
But that's just not the case.

 In any  
 style of meditation where you have an object of focus

Which excludes TM, since TM doesn't involve focusing.

--WHATEVER that  
 object may be, the subtle mechanics will require that you maintain  
 some species of global mindfulness in order to be able to meditate. 
 I like Asanga's definition of mindfulness which shows how 
 appropriate the description is in regards to manasika-japa/TM:
 
 What is mindfulness? The non-forgetfulness of the mind with 
 respect to a familiar object, having the function of non-
 distraction.

As I understand this, it *would* apply to TM--except
that it's a DEscription of *what happens*, not a PRE-
scription for *what to do*.

 In the case of manasika-japa/TM the global 
 conditioned 'familiarity' is with the mantra and non-distraction 
 would refer to the vyuttana or outward, distracted tendency of 
 the outward stroke. Since this so precisely and accurately 
 applies, what else need be said?

As long as you're talking about DEscription, nothing.
But it doesn't have anything to do with whether effort
is exerted during TM.

As long as the attention is on the mantra, mindfulness
and nondistraction are happening.  When another
thought intervenes, that's the outward stroke; the
mindfulness and nondistraction have ceased.

That's the effortless cycle I described earlier.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-15 Thread sparaig

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Mar 15, 2006, at 11:36 AM, sparaig wrote:
 
  Huh, but one can have the outward stroke for the full 20 minutes 
of
  TM practice and still be practicing TM absolutely correctly.
 
 Good luck with that!


So Judy and I have been correct: you really never learned TM, 
regardless of what classes/courses you took on the subject.






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?


On Mar 15, 2006, at 3:23 PM, authfriend wrote:


 In any
  style of meditation where you have an object of focus

 Which excludes TM, since TM doesn't involve focusing.

  In terms of process, it is the point you return to irregardless.  
Focus here being an english trans. of the Sanskrit dharana or  
focus of attention in the official movement translation of the  
word. Since you claimed to be familiar with TM, I assumed you would  
be conversant in their language. Apparently that is not the case.


 --WHATEVER that
  object may be, the subtle mechanics will require that you maintain
  some species of global mindfulness in order to be able to meditate.
  I like Asanga's definition of mindfulness which shows how
  appropriate the description is in regards to manasika-japa/TM:
 
  What is mindfulness? The non-forgetfulness of the mind with
  respect to a familiar object, having the function of non-
  distraction.

 As I understand this, it *would* apply to TM--except
 that it's a DEscription of *what happens*, not a PRE-
 scription for *what to do*.

Correct it does not describe the technique of manasika-japa/TM but  
merely defines mindfulness in a broad context of practice.



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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-15 Thread sparaig

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Mar 15, 2006, at 3:23 PM, authfriend wrote:
 
 
  In any
   style of meditation where you have an object of focus
 
  Which excludes TM, since TM doesn't involve focusing.
 
   In terms of process, it is the point you return to irregardless.  
 Focus here being an english trans. of the Sanskrit dharana or  
 focus of attention in the official movement translation of the  
 word. Since you claimed to be familiar with TM, I assumed you 
would  
 be conversant in their language. Apparently that is not the case.
 

But, what mantra do you return to?



 
  --WHATEVER that
   object may be, the subtle mechanics will require that you 
maintain
   some species of global mindfulness in order to be able to 
meditate.
   I like Asanga's definition of mindfulness which shows how
   appropriate the description is in regards to manasika-japa/TM:
  
   What is mindfulness? The non-forgetfulness of the mind with
   respect to a familiar object, having the function of non-
   distraction.
 
  As I understand this, it *would* apply to TM--except
  that it's a DEscription of *what happens*, not a PRE-
  scription for *what to do*.
 
 Correct it does not describe the technique of manasika-japa/TM but  
 merely defines mindfulness in a broad context of practice.


Insomuch as TM involves awareness, then you can say its mindfulness. 
Beyond that, depends on the definition of mindfulness. As I pointed 
out, a perfectly valid TM session could involve thinking the mantra 
once and being distracted by internal/external phenomena for the next 
20 minutes.

You seemed to believe thatthat could NOT be a valid meditation 
session, or so your good luck with that response suggests.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Mar 15, 2006, at 3:23 PM, authfriend wrote:
 
 
  In any
   style of meditation where you have an object of focus
 
  Which excludes TM, since TM doesn't involve focusing.
 
   In terms of process, it is the point you return to irregardless.  
 Focus here being an english trans. of the Sanskrit dharana or  
 focus of attention in the official movement translation of the  
 word. Since you claimed to be familiar with TM, I assumed you 
 would be conversant in their language. Apparently that is not the 
 case.

I'm familiar with it in the context of the TM-Sidhis.
Where is this official movement translation of the
term to be found in the context of plain-vanilla TM?

  --WHATEVER that
   object may be, the subtle mechanics will require that you
z maintain
   some species of global mindfulness in order to be able to 
meditate.
   I like Asanga's definition of mindfulness which shows how
   appropriate the description is in regards to manasika-japa/TM:
  
   What is mindfulness? The non-forgetfulness of the mind with
   respect to a familiar object, having the function of non-
   distraction.
 
  As I understand this, it *would* apply to TM--except
  that it's a DEscription of *what happens*, not a PRE-
  scription for *what to do*.
 
 Correct it does not describe the technique of manasika-japa/TM but  
 merely defines mindfulness in a broad context of practice.

Non sequitur, not only to my comment, but to your
own introduction to the quotation.

   In the case of manasika-japa/TM the global
   conditioned 'familiarity' is with the mantra and non-
   distraction would refer to the vyuttana or outward, distracted
   tendency of the outward stroke. Since this so precisely and 
   accurately applies, what else need be said?
  
  As long as you're talking about DEscription, nothing.
  But it doesn't have anything to do with whether effort
  is exerted during TM.
  
  As long as the attention is on the mantra, mindfulness
  and nondistraction are happening.  When another
  thought intervenes, that's the outward stroke; the
  mindfulness and nondistraction have ceased.
 
  That's the effortless cycle I described earlier.








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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?


On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:07 PM, sparaig wrote:

  Correct it does not describe the technique of manasika-japa/TM but
  merely defines mindfulness in a broad context of practice.
 

 Insomuch as TM involves awareness, then you can say its mindfulness.

Precisely.

 Beyond that, depends on the definition of mindfulness.

I am using Asanga's definition as it is pertinent to the style of  
meditation we are discussing.

 As I pointed
 out, a perfectly valid TM session could involve thinking the mantra
 once and being distracted by internal/external phenomena for the next
 20 minutes.

 You seemed to believe thatthat could NOT be a valid meditation
 session, or so your good luck with that response suggests.

This is an erroneous conclusion. It may well be for you a valid  
meditation in your version of TM style meditation. What that will  
actually lead to is depression if it is repeated long enough--which  
actually explains a lot. It may well be a fault in this technique.


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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?


On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:13 PM, authfriend wrote:

 I'm familiar with it in the context of the TM-Sidhis.
 Where is this official movement translation of the
 term to be found in the context of plain-vanilla TM?

Steadiness is a popular TMer word for dharana.



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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:13 PM, authfriend wrote:
 
  I'm familiar with it in the context of the TM-Sidhis.
  Where is this official movement translation of the
  term to be found in the context of plain-vanilla TM?
 
 Steadiness is a popular TMer word for dharana.

Vaj, you're blowing it out your nether regions.








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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?


On Mar 15, 2006, at 7:00 PM, authfriend wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
  On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:13 PM, authfriend wrote:
 
   I'm familiar with it in the context of the TM-Sidhis.
   Where is this official movement translation of the
   term to be found in the context of plain-vanilla TM?
 
  Steadiness is a popular TMer word for dharana.

 Vaj, you're blowing it out your nether regions.

Hey it's Mahesh's trans., not mine, take it up with his nether regions!

Absolute bliss being always there, the experience of happiness thus  
depends upon the degree of steadiness of mind. -MMY

More focus of mind might just make you happier Judy. Try it!



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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 On Mar 15, 2006, at 7:00 PM, authfriend wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ 
 wrote:

   In any style of meditation where you have an object of 
   focus
 
  Which excludes TM, since TM doesn't involve focusing.

 In terms of process, it is the point you return to 
 irregardless. Focus here being an english trans. of the 
 Sanskrit dharana or focus of attention in 
 the official movement translation of the
 word. Since you claimed to be familiar with TM, I assumed 
 you would be conversant in their language. Apparently that 
 is not the case.
  
   On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:13 PM, authfriend wrote:
  
I'm familiar with it in the context of the TM-Sidhis.
Where is this official movement translation of the
term to be found in the context of plain-vanilla TM?
  
   Steadiness is a popular TMer word for dharana.
 
  Vaj, you're blowing it out your nether regions.
 
 Hey it's Mahesh's trans., not mine, take it up with his nether
 regions!
 
 Absolute bliss being always there, the experience of happiness 
 thus depends upon the degree of steadiness of mind. -MMY

Mm-hm.  So now show, please, how this quotation
demonstrates that TM involves focus (as we can see
was the original issue now that I've restored the
context Vaj snipped).

 More focus of mind might just make you happier Judy. Try it!

Ya know, Vaj, of all the folks on this forum, and those
on alt.m.t as well, you are the *least* focused.  It's
not clear whether you're *unable* to sustain a coherent
train of thought in a discussion, or whether your lack
of focus is a deliberate tactic to obscure the fact that
you don't know what you're talking about most of the time.

Your constant context-snipping, I suspect, is the giveaway
that it's deliberate.

And the fact that you won't be able to make a coherent
connection between the quote and your claim is the
giveaway that, as I said, you're blowing it out your
nether regions.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-15 Thread bbrigante

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Mar 15, 2006, at 7:00 PM, authfriend wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
  
  
   On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:13 PM, authfriend wrote:
  
I'm familiar with it in the context of the TM-Sidhis.
Where is this official movement translation of the
term to be found in the context of plain-vanilla TM?
  
   Steadiness is a popular TMer word for dharana.
 
  Vaj, you're blowing it out your nether regions.
 
 Hey it's Mahesh's trans., not mine, take it up with his nether 
regions!
 



 Absolute bliss being always there, the experience of happiness 
thus  
 depends upon the degree of steadiness of mind. -MMY
 
 More focus of mind might just make you happier Judy. Try it!



***

Naturally you have completely misunderstood what MMY said, which has 
nothing to do with the effort of focusing the mind, but on simply 
living with a peaceful mind:

MMY's Gita commentary, Ch II, v. 66
If the mind is more steady, it is in a better position to 
experience greater happiness. As on a calmer surface of water the 
sun reflects more clearly, so a calmer mind receives a clerer 
reflection of the omnipresent bliss of the absolute Being. As the 
mind fathoms finer fields of thinking during meditation, the 
metabolism is simultaneously reduced. This establishes the nervous 
system in degrees of ever-increasing peace. Eventually, when the 
entire nervous system comes to a completely peaceful state, it 
reflects Being, and this gives rise to bliss-
consciousnessAbsolute bliss being always there, the experience 
of happiness thus depends upon the degree of steadiness of mind. If 
the mind is more collected, more peaceful, it experiences more 
happiness. 





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bbrigante [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
 
  On Mar 15, 2006, at 7:00 PM, authfriend wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
   
On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:13 PM, authfriend wrote:
   
 I'm familiar with it in the context of the TM-Sidhis.
 Where is this official movement translation of the
 term to be found in the context of plain-vanilla TM?
   
Steadiness is a popular TMer word for dharana.
  
   Vaj, you're blowing it out your nether regions.
  
  Hey it's Mahesh's trans., not mine, take it up with his nether
  regions!
 
  Absolute bliss being always there, the experience of happiness 
  thus depends upon the degree of steadiness of mind. -MMY
  
  More focus of mind might just make you happier Judy. Try it!
 
 ***
 
 Naturally you have completely misunderstood what MMY said, which 
 has nothing to do with the effort of focusing the mind, but on 
 simply living with a peaceful mind:
 
 MMY's Gita commentary, Ch II, v. 66
 If the mind is more steady, it is in a better position to 
 experience greater happiness. As on a calmer surface of water the 
 sun reflects more clearly, so a calmer mind receives a clerer 
 reflection of the omnipresent bliss of the absolute Being. As the 
 mind fathoms finer fields of thinking during meditation, the 
 metabolism is simultaneously reduced. This establishes the nervous 
 system in degrees of ever-increasing peace. Eventually, when the 
 entire nervous system comes to a completely peaceful state, it 
 reflects Being, and this gives rise to bliss-
 consciousnessAbsolute bliss being always there, the experience 
 of happiness thus depends upon the degree of steadiness of mind. If 
 the mind is more collected, more peaceful, it experiences more 
 happiness.

That's what I figured; the quote had nothing to do
with the question at issue--and it wasn't even a
translation in the first place.  Thanks for locating
it.

I don't understand why this forum tolerates scam
artists like Vaj and Barry.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-15 Thread TurquoiseB

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
  On Mar 15, 2006, at 11:36 AM, sparaig wrote:
  
   Huh, but one can have the outward stroke for the full 
   20 minutes of TM practice and still be practicing TM 
   absolutely correctly.
  
  Good luck with that!
 
 So Judy and I have been correct: you really never learned TM, 
 regardless of what classes/courses you took on the subject.

So you believe that to have learned TM properly,
you have to believe all the *dogma* about TM that
was taught to you?

That's what you're saying, in effect. What you've
just said isn't about the mechanics of TM, but
about what you were told in the lectures *about*
TM. It's THEORY. Vaj has a *different* theory,
based on his subsequent experience. I think that
in the biz, that's known as an OPINION.  :-)

Are you so weak in your *own* practice that you
have to suggest that anyone who doesn't believe
the same dogma you believe is doing TM wrong?
That IS what you are suggesting. I mean, think
this through, dude...if TM is as automatic as
you have maintained in the past, and as free from
the need to believe in it, then a person could
be practicing it as taught and believe that any 
benefits come from tiny green gophers who, as one 
thinks the mantra, scurry around the brain eating 
up any unruly neurons in the brain. 

Your position is based on an assumption, also
one that you were TOLD, that TM works by dis-
solving stress. Some of us, based on our exper-
ience with other techniques and with higher
states of consciousness, don't believe that this
is true. Therefore, to us, the benefit of any
form of meditation, *including* TM, is a direct
result of how effectively the practice leads to
transcendence. We believe *that* (the amount of
time spent in transcendence) is the mechanism
that affects change, *not* sitting there lost in
thought. This conflicts with the TM dogma, but it
may be correct. It's a matter of belief, not fact.

Stop this stuff. You're too intelligent to have
to stoop to this sort of argument. It's *permis-
sible* to have different opinions on the theory
behind TM, *especially* if, as in Vaj's case,
he has other experiences *besides* TM to base
his theory on, and is not (as in your case)
basing them completely on what he was TOLD.

As I suggested to t3rinity lately, and as he
seems to have taken to heart, you'd make a much
stronger case for your beliefs if you found a
way to present them positively than if you just
react in a knee-jerk fashion by trying to defend
them by demonizing the person who believes 
differently, or who is presenting a different 
set of beliefs. But when you react by trying to 
say that the other person's opinion is fatally 
flawed, and that they never learned properly, 
all you reveal is your own dependence on dogma 
and doing what you were told. You're better 
than that.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-15 Thread TurquoiseB

In any
style of meditation where you have an object of focus
  
   Which excludes TM, since TM doesn't involve focusing.
  
  In terms of process, it is the point you return to 
  irregardless.  
  Focus here being an english trans. of the Sanskrit dharana or  
  focus of attention in the official movement translation of 
  the word. Since you claimed to be familiar with TM, I assumed 
  you would be conversant in their language. Apparently that is 
  not the case.
 
 But, what mantra do you return to?

You don't have to be so TM-centric and bigoted, man.
Many techniques of meditation don't even *use* a
mantra. But you still come back to something.

IMO it isn't the mantra per se that enables
TM to work; it's the coming back to,  the element
of focus (even if it's soft focus, as in TM). The 
choice of TM mantras was come to by trial and error, 
and changed radically during MMY's early years. You
can find them in many books, and chances are that's
where Maharishi found them. There is nothing partic-
ularly magical about them.

In other words, you responded to Vaj's point with
a non-sequitur intended to dismiss it and suggest 
that TM is best. Again. And again, you're better 
than that.

Just my two centimes...I'm just trying to suggest
that there is room for people to believe different
things about meditation and how it works. Chances
are that *none* of them are correct. Acting as if
one is correct and all others are incorrect seems
to me a great way to develop a lot of negative
karma, not to evolve.

snip to
 Insomuch as TM involves awareness, then you can say its 
 mindfulness. Beyond that, depends on the definition of 
 mindfulness. 

Correct. Earlier, I used a more limited definition of 
mindfulness; but as Vaj and others here seem to be using
it, it's a term that applies to the application of
selective attention, period. As such, I would have to
agree that most forms of meditation, including TM, fall
into that category.

 As I pointed 
 out, a perfectly valid TM session could involve thinking 
 the mantra once and being distracted by internal/external 
 phenomena for the next 20 minutes.
 
 You seemed to believe thatthat could NOT be a valid meditation 
 session, or so your good luck with that response suggests.

I don't think Vaj ever suggested that sitting lost in 
thought wasn't valid. As I read what he said, he's
suggesting that IN HIS OPINION it isn't particularly
*effective*. I would agree. That doesn't mean that we
didn't understand or get the TM dogma that surrounds
this issue, merely that we don't buy it.

There's a difference. Believing in a different theory
doesn't mean that the other person is flawed, or that
they didn't hear and understand the same things you
did when you were listening to the TM teachers who
were parroting what they were told to say. It just
means that the other person has chosen not to take
what they were told as some kind of cosmic truth, the
*only* way that things could be described. Vaj is 
expressing an opinion; he's entitled to that opinion.
And *his* opinion has no effect whatsoever on you 
or your own opinions unless you allow it to.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-15 Thread TurquoiseB

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Mar 15, 2006, at 6:07 PM, sparaig wrote:
 
  You seemed to believe thatthat could NOT be a valid meditation
  session, or so your good luck with that response suggests.
 
 This is an erroneous conclusion. It may well be for you a valid  
 meditation in your version of TM style meditation. What that will  
 actually lead to is depression if it is repeated long enough--which  
 actually explains a lot. It may well be a fault in this technique.

For what it's worth, I actually agree with Vaj here.
That does *not* mean that I didn't learn TM properly,
merely that nearly 40 years of meditation practice
have suggested other ways of seeing the situation to
me that I tend to believe more than the dogma that is
taught in the TM organization.







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-14 Thread Vaj


On Mar 13, 2006, at 11:25 PM, sparaig wrote:

Yeah, but as I say, effortlessness in the TM sense
*can't* be an expectation.  You can only expect
*something*, you can't expect *nothing*.  Or to put
it another way, any expectation of effortlessness
that you might have wouldn't be effortlessness in the
TM experiential sense.  An expectation is
intellectual; effortlessness isn't.  Apples and
oranges.
  
   But you are the one who said that people who don't have YOUR
   experience haven't gotten TM. That's an expectation, by
   definition.
 
  An expectation of what?  And how would it affect one's
  practice?
 

 Expectations effect everything we do. If you expect TM to  include a
 certain kind of experience than you're practicing that experience.

It is a form of mindfullnessAs is remembering to bring  
awareness back to the mantra or even once subconsciously conditioned  
automatic reacquisition of the mantra impulse--called patched  
placement and close' placement in previous examples.


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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-14 Thread authfriend

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 0  I did say in that in the early stages there may be
   some very slight effort until the automatic cycle
   is established.
  
  What if that automatic cycle is NEVER established? Does this 
mean 
  that someone is doing it incorrectly?
  
 
 I guess many people who for instance see different colours when 
they 
 hear sounds of different pitches think that everybody has that
 gift. My TM-instructor said, as I recall it, that some people have
 echo-mantra, and for them TM is especially easy to learn, because 
 there certainly is absolutely no effort when they
 are meditating.

Just for the record, it was some months after I learned
to meditate that it began to be completely effortless.
I'm not sure what echo-mantra is, or whether I have
it even now, but I seriously doubt I had it when I
started.

Also, to clarify something: To this day, I don't
always have 100 percent effortless meditations all
the way through a meditation session by any means;
and as I've described elsewhere, I had a period of
some months awhile back in which meditation always
had some subtle effort.

What I'm contending is that only when TM is 100
percent effortless is one actually practicing TM.
So in a given session, I may be practicing TM only
for a portion of that session.

 That automatic cycle might be a slightly different
 thing, but I wouldn't say my meditation is like that. As I've told
 before, I sometimes even pay some attention to the final sound
 of my mantra, because my mother tongue doesn't have that sound
 *at the end of words*, excepting a couple of onomatopoetic words.

Have you consulted a TM teacher about this?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 0  I did say in that in the early stages there may be
   some very slight effort until the automatic cycle
   is established.
  
  What if that automatic cycle is NEVER established? Does this 
mean 
  that someone is doing it incorrectly?
  
 
 I guess many people who for instance see different colours when 
they 
 hear sounds of different pitches think that everybody has that
 gift. My TM-instructor said, as I recall it, that some people have
 echo-mantra, and for them TM is especially easy to learn, because 
 there certainly is absolutely no effort when they
 are meditating. That automatic cycle might be a slightly different
 thing, but I wouldn't say my meditation is like that. As I've told
 before, I sometimes even pay some attention to the final sound
 of my mantra, because my mother tongue doesn't have that sound
 *at the end of words*, excepting a couple of onomatopoetic words.


It might be good to get checked...






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Mar 13, 2006, at 11:25 PM, sparaig wrote:
 
 Yeah, but as I say, effortlessness in the TM sense
 *can't* be an expectation.  You can only expect
 *something*, you can't expect *nothing*.  Or to put
 it another way, any expectation of effortlessness
 that you might have wouldn't be effortlessness in the
 TM experiential sense.  An expectation is
 intellectual; effortlessness isn't.  Apples and
 oranges.
   
But you are the one who said that people who don't have YOUR
experience haven't gotten TM. That's an expectation, by
definition.
  
   An expectation of what?  And how would it affect one's
   practice?
  
 
  Expectations effect everything we do. If you expect TM to  
include a
  certain kind of experience than you're practicing that experience.
 
 It is a form of mindfullnessAs is remembering to bring  
 awareness back to the mantra or even once subconsciously 
conditioned  
 automatic reacquisition of the mantra impulse--called patched  
 placement and close' placement in previous examples.


Sure, but my OWN TM practice often varies quite a bit from the 
previous practice, and even from moment to moment within the same 
period of practice. Even mindfulness doesn't describe my practice at 
times where I can become aware that I'm not thinking the mantra and 
then realize that actually, I probably WAS thinking the mantra while 
other stuff was being thought as well. My realization that I'm not 
thinking the mantra often brings to mind something so subtle that 
its only by contrast that I feel even remotely comfortable with 
calling it my mantra.

At the other end of my experiences, Benson's relaxation response 
seems easy and spontaneous by comparison. And no doubt, I'll 
have/have had some other experiences as well. Etc.Etc.etc.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister no_reply@ 
 wrote:
 
  0  I did say in that in the early stages there may be
some very slight effort until the automatic cycle
is established.
   
   What if that automatic cycle is NEVER established? Does this 
 mean 
   that someone is doing it incorrectly?
   
  
  I guess many people who for instance see different colours when 
 they 
  hear sounds of different pitches think that everybody has that
  gift. My TM-instructor said, as I recall it, that some people have
  echo-mantra, and for them TM is especially easy to learn, 
because 
  there certainly is absolutely no effort when they
  are meditating.
 
 Just for the record, it was some months after I learned
 to meditate that it began to be completely effortless.
 I'm not sure what echo-mantra is, or whether I have
 it even now, but I seriously doubt I had it when I
 started.
 
 Also, to clarify something: To this day, I don't
 always have 100 percent effortless meditations all
 the way through a meditation session by any means;
 and as I've described elsewhere, I had a period of
 some months awhile back in which meditation always
 had some subtle effort.
 
 What I'm contending is that only when TM is 100
 percent effortless is one actually practicing TM.
 So in a given session, I may be practicing TM only
 for a portion of that session.

I would say, rather, that as long as you have the understanding that 
no effort is *required*, that your practice of TM, no matter if 100% 
effortless, or only 97.3% effortless (or whatever), is still a valid 
TM session. Assigning value judgements to your practice isn't the 
best way to spend your time...

 
  That automatic cycle might be a slightly different
  thing, but I wouldn't say my meditation is like that. As I've told
  before, I sometimes even pay some attention to the final sound
  of my mantra, because my mother tongue doesn't have that sound
  *at the end of words*, excepting a couple of onomatopoetic words.
 
 Have you consulted a TM teacher about this?







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-14 Thread authfriend

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
snip
  What I'm contending is that only when TM is 100
  percent effortless is one actually practicing TM.
  So in a given session, I may be practicing TM only
  for a portion of that session.
 
 I would say, rather, that as long as you have the understanding
 that no effort is *required*, that your practice of TM, no matter 
 if 100% effortless, or only 97.3% effortless (or whatever), is 
 still a valid TM session.

This isn't rather.  I would agree: as long as *some* 
percentage of a session is effortless, it's a valid
TM session.  By which I mean, any session of which a
portion is TM (i.e., effortless) is a TM session.

 Assigning value judgements to your 
 practice isn't the best way to spend your time...

Right.  Were you thinking that this is what I do?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-14 Thread cardemaister

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister no_reply@ 
 wrote:
 
  0  I did say in that in the early stages there may be
some very slight effort until the automatic cycle
is established.
   
   What if that automatic cycle is NEVER established? Does this 
 mean 
   that someone is doing it incorrectly?
   
  
  I guess many people who for instance see different colours when 
 they 
  hear sounds of different pitches think that everybody has that
  gift. My TM-instructor said, as I recall it, that some people have
  echo-mantra, and for them TM is especially easy to learn, 
because 
  there certainly is absolutely no effort when they
  are meditating.
 
 Just for the record, it was some months after I learned
 to meditate that it began to be completely effortless.
 I'm not sure what echo-mantra is, or whether I have
 it even now, but I seriously doubt I had it when I
 started.
 
 Also, to clarify something: To this day, I don't
 always have 100 percent effortless meditations all
 the way through a meditation session by any means;
 and as I've described elsewhere, I had a period of
 some months awhile back in which meditation always
 had some subtle effort.
 
 What I'm contending is that only when TM is 100
 percent effortless is one actually practicing TM.
 So in a given session, I may be practicing TM only
 for a portion of that session.
 
  That automatic cycle might be a slightly different
  thing, but I wouldn't say my meditation is like that. As I've told
  before, I sometimes even pay some attention to the final sound
  of my mantra, because my mother tongue doesn't have that sound
  *at the end of words*, excepting a couple of onomatopoetic words.
 
 Have you consulted a TM teacher about this?


No, I haven't, but I'm quite sure during my initiation
my TM instructor emphasized the importance of the
last sound of my mantra, despite the fact that my
wild imagination every now and then tends to play games
with me and distort my memories...





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ 
wrote:
 snip
   What I'm contending is that only when TM is 100
   percent effortless is one actually practicing TM.
   So in a given session, I may be practicing TM only
   for a portion of that session.
  
  I would say, rather, that as long as you have the understanding
  that no effort is *required*, that your practice of TM, no matter 
  if 100% effortless, or only 97.3% effortless (or whatever), is 
  still a valid TM session.
 
 This isn't rather.  I would agree: as long as *some* 
 percentage of a session is effortless, it's a valid
 TM session.  By which I mean, any session of which a
 portion is TM (i.e., effortless) is a TM session.

But even someportion of some concentrative technique is effortless so 
what is the difference then? MMY has set up a training procedure that 
helps bring people to a state of letting better than concentration, 
but if someone using some slight effort in their practice, that's how 
it is. You can't be dilligent about getting rid of effort! And to me, 
assigning a value-judgement to the effortlessness/non-effortlessness 
of their practice, assuming that they follow the instructions, is 
definitely a value-judgement.

 
  Assigning value judgements to your 
  practice isn't the best way to spend your time...
 
 Right.  Were you thinking that this is what I do?


Sure sounds like.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-14 Thread authfriend

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ 
 wrote:
  snip
What I'm contending is that only when TM is 100
percent effortless is one actually practicing TM.
So in a given session, I may be practicing TM only
for a portion of that session.
   
   I would say, rather, that as long as you have the understanding
   that no effort is *required*, that your practice of TM, no 
matter 
   if 100% effortless, or only 97.3% effortless (or whatever), is 
   still a valid TM session.
  
  This isn't rather.  I would agree: as long as *some* 
  percentage of a session is effortless, it's a valid
  TM session.  By which I mean, any session of which a
  portion is TM (i.e., effortless) is a TM session.
 
 But even someportion of some concentrative technique is effortless
 so what is the difference then?

*If* some portion is effortless, then it's de facto TM,
whatever it may be called.  For the differences, you'd
have to determine relative percentages of the sessions
that were effortless vs. with effort, plus compare the
results over time.

 MMY has set up a training procedure that 
 helps bring people to a state of letting better than 
 concentration, but if someone using some slight effort in their 
 practice, that's how it is. You can't be dilligent about getting 
 rid of effort!

Right, diligence is not what's needed.

I'm not criticizing people who are inadvertently
using effort.  I'm criticizing the view that TM
*requires* effort.

 And to me, assigning a value-judgement to the 
 effortlessness/non-effortlessness of their practice, assuming that 
 they follow the instructions, is definitely a value-judgement.

Well, yes, assigning a value judgment is definitely
assigning a value judgment.  duh

I'm not assigning a value judgment, however.  That's
a different issue.  All I'm saying is: *This* is TM
(effortless) and *that* is not TM (some effort).

   Assigning value judgements to your 
   practice isn't the best way to spend your time...
  
  Right.  Were you thinking that this is what I do?
 
 Sure sounds like.

Wrongo.






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-14 Thread Vaj

On Mar 14, 2006, at 6:05 PM, sparaig wrote:But even someportion of some concentrative technique is effortless so what is the difference then? MMY has set up a training procedure that helps bring people to a state of "letting" better than concentration, but if someone using some slight effort in their practice, that's how it is. You can't be dilligent about getting rid of effort! And to me, assigning a value-judgement to the effortlessness/non-effortlessness of their practice, assuming that they follow the instructions, is definitely a value-judgement.Here's some more evidence of subtle effort for positive support of the practice of TM (from an old post here). It actually involved your post. These are classic elements of mindfulness (Rick uses the word "attentiveness") to prevent laxity, a common, helpful element in numerous forms of meditation:[FairfieldLife] TM Laxity, was: For Vaj Re:Pitta-aggravating mantrasRick ArcherSat, 25 Jun 2005 09:32:08 -0700on 6/25/05 9:49 AM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be interesting to hear others experiences in the area of TM and laxity. Well, aside from the advice given that people who find themselves sleeping a lot during TM should sleep more BEFORE TM? BTW, I go through periods where I sleep a lot during program, and periods where I don't seem to sleep much. What is your explanation for that other than MMY's, that the condition of my nervous system is different from time to time?On the Santa Barbara ATR (winter 71-72) I told M that I fell asleep in mostof my meditations. He said "Some physical weakness. Try to remove thecause."On my 6 month course (Courcheval, Spring-Fall 1975) M said that he was goingto try to turn us into yogis in 6 months. Two things he recommended werecold baths and sitting up without back support in meditation. I think bothof these, especially the latter, were prescriptions to combat laxity. (Healso said we were in a race or a contest to see who could purify thefastest, and to help us he had us fasting and trying all sorts of healersbrought in from around Europe).I think the no effort thing is most relevant to grosser levels ofexperience, i.e., new meditators. At subtle levels effort also isn'tappropriate, but attentiveness is. The advanced technique where you focus onthe heart area is certainly a form of attentiveness. I also find that somegentle attentiveness vs. allowing the mind to just mess around makes a bigdifference in terms of clarity and frequency of transcending.At Estes Park, M quoted the Vedas as saying, "Be easy to us with gentleeffort."

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Mar 14, 2006, at 6:05 PM, sparaig wrote:
 
  But even someportion of some concentrative technique is 
effortless so
  what is the difference then? MMY has set up a training procedure 
that
  helps bring people to a state of letting better than 
concentration,
  but if someone using some slight effort in their practice, that's 
how
  it is. You can't be dilligent about getting rid of effort! And to 
me,
  assigning a value-judgement to the effortlessness/non-
effortlessness
  of their practice, assuming that they follow the instructions, is
  definitely a value-judgement.
 
 Here's some more evidence of subtle effort for positive support of  
 the practice of TM (from an old post here). It actually involved 
your  
 post. These are classic elements of mindfulness (Rick uses the 
word  
 attentiveness) to prevent laxity, a common, helpful element in  
 numerous forms of meditation:
 
 [FairfieldLife] TM  Laxity, was: For Vaj Re:Pitta-aggravating 
mantras
 Rick Archer
 Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:32:08 -0700
 
 on 6/25/05 9:49 AM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   It would be interesting to hear others experiences in the area 
of TM
   and laxity.
  
   Well, aside from the advice given that people who find 
themselves  
 sleeping a
   lot during TM
   should sleep more BEFORE TM?
  
   BTW, I go through periods where I sleep a lot during program, 
and  
 periods
   where I don't
   seem to sleep much. What is your explanation for that other 
than  
 MMY's, that
   the
   condition of my nervous system is different from time to time?
 
 On the Santa Barbara ATR (winter 71-72) I told M that I fell 
asleep  
 in most
 of my meditations. He said Some physical weakness. Try to remove 
the
 cause.
 
 On my 6 month course (Courcheval, Spring-Fall 1975) M said that he  
 was going
 to try to turn us into yogis in 6 months. Two things he recommended 
were
 cold baths and sitting up without back support in meditation. I 
think  
 both
 of these, especially the latter, were prescriptions to combat 
laxity.  
 (He
 also said we were in a race or a contest to see who could purify the
 fastest, and to help us he had us fasting and trying all sorts of  
 healers
 brought in from around Europe).
 
 I think the no effort thing is most relevant to grosser levels of
 experience, i.e., new meditators. At subtle levels effort also isn't
 appropriate, but attentiveness is. The advanced technique where 
you  
 focus on
 the heart area is certainly a form of attentiveness. 

Not in my mind.

I also find that  
 some
 gentle attentiveness vs. allowing the mind to just mess around 
makes  
 a big
 difference in terms of clarity and frequency of transcending.

BUt is that important?

 
 At Estes Park, M quoted the Vedas as saying, Be easy to us with 
gentle
 effort.


That's the MAximum effort, WORST-CASE scenario.






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?


On Mar 13, 2006, at 2:41 AM, sparaig wrote:

 Of course, we TBers wanna know WHY you're insisting on adding layers
 of complexity to simplicity...

Yeah SCI was real succinct.



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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?


On Mar 13, 2006, at 2:44 AM, TurquoiseB wrote:

  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
 
  In any event, the point here is that unless one is doing
  a non-dual form of quiescence/transcendence meditation,
  there will--by it's very nature always be not only some
  dualism or some subtle meditational effort involved.

 To continue this morning's train of thought
 in the context of meditation, perhaps a style
 of meditation that involves trying to move
 from What is to What should be (whether
 that should be is coming back to the mantra
 or achieving transcendence) is, in Buddhist
 terms, indulging and thus perpetuating the
 desire/aversion cycle and taking the actor
 further away from immersion in What is.

In Shamatha, the Buddhist style of transcendence-style meditation,  
they achieve the automatic stage of transcendence (like Judy  
describes in her experience) as an early stage in the overall scheme  
of things and then proceed to more and more stable and vivid  
investigations of pure consciousness until one simply transcends  
the entire session --and can do so for hours at a time. In Dzogchen- 
style Shamatha, one simply rests in the natural state. For people who  
do not require reference points (like a mantra, the breath, etc.)  
this can work quite well.



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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 [...]
  True, but not necessarily sad, if you mean they're not
  experiencing transcendental consciousness by itself.  If
  the process never becomes automatic, that *is* sad, but
  only in the sense that the person hasn't really got the
  knack of TM.
  
 
 Kill that Buddha, Judy. You're addicted to absolute effortlessness.

grin








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
 
  In any event, the point here is that unless one is doing 
  a non-dual form of quiescence/transcendence meditation, 
  there will--by it's very nature always be not only some 
  dualism or some subtle meditational effort involved. 
 
 To continue this morning's train of thought
 in the context of meditation, perhaps a style 
 of meditation that involves trying to move 
 from What is to What should be (whether
 that should be is coming back to the mantra
 or achieving transcendence) is, in Buddhist
 terms, indulging and thus perpetuating the 
 desire/aversion cycle and taking the actor
 further away from immersion in What is.

True, but that, of course, is not a description
of TM.

 Whereas a technique of meditation that involves 
 nothing more than paying attention to What is

For me, that's what TM is.  And it's automatic,
no effort required for the paying of attention.


 
 or even a concentrated focus *on* What is is 
 facilitating immersion in What is.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Mar 13, 2006, at 2:41 AM, sparaig wrote:
 
  Of course, we TBers wanna know WHY you're insisting on adding layers
  of complexity to simplicity...
 
 Yeah SCI was real succinct.

SCI isn't about the *technique* per se.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Mar 13, 2006, at 2:44 AM, TurquoiseB wrote:
 
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
  
   In any event, the point here is that unless one is doing
   a non-dual form of quiescence/transcendence meditation,
   there will--by it's very nature always be not only some
   dualism or some subtle meditational effort involved.
 
  To continue this morning's train of thought
  in the context of meditation, perhaps a style
  of meditation that involves trying to move
  from What is to What should be (whether
  that should be is coming back to the mantra
  or achieving transcendence) is, in Buddhist
  terms, indulging and thus perpetuating the
  desire/aversion cycle and taking the actor
  further away from immersion in What is.
 
 In Shamatha, the Buddhist style of transcendence-style meditation,  
 they achieve the automatic stage of transcendence (like Judy  
 describes in her experience) as an early stage in the overall 
scheme  
 of things and then proceed to more and more stable and vivid  
 investigations of pure consciousness until one simply transcends  
 the entire session --and can do so for hours at a time. In Dzogchen-
 style Shamatha, one simply rests in the natural state. For people 
 who  do not require reference points (like a mantra, the breath, 
 etc.) this can work quite well.

But what does it do for you in daily life?  In TM, of
course, experiences during meditation are fundamentally
irrelevant.







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?


On Mar 13, 2006, at 9:50 AM, authfriend wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
  On Mar 13, 2006, at 2:44 AM, TurquoiseB wrote:
 
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
   
In any event, the point here is that unless one is doing
a non-dual form of quiescence/transcendence meditation,
there will--by it's very nature always be not only some
dualism or some subtle meditational effort involved.
  
   To continue this morning's train of thought
   in the context of meditation, perhaps a style
   of meditation that involves trying to move
   from What is to What should be (whether
   that should be is coming back to the mantra
   or achieving transcendence) is, in Buddhist
   terms, indulging and thus perpetuating the
   desire/aversion cycle and taking the actor
   further away from immersion in What is.
 
  In Shamatha, the Buddhist style of transcendence-style meditation,
  they achieve the automatic stage of transcendence (like Judy
  describes in her experience) as an early stage in the overall
 scheme
  of things and then proceed to more and more stable and vivid
  investigations of pure consciousness until one simply transcends
  the entire session --and can do so for hours at a time. In Dzogchen-
  style Shamatha, one simply rests in the natural state. For people
  who  do not require reference points (like a mantra, the breath,
  etc.) this can work quite well.

 But what does it do for you in daily life?  In TM, of
 course, experiences during meditation are fundamentally
 irrelevant.

Essentially the same thing, although as already noted the technique  
can continue beyond where TM would normally go, essentially expanding  
the gap for extended periods of time. Afflictive emotional states  
tend to subside as well as negative emotions like fear--suffering  
diminishes and attentional vividness increases, during waking and  
sleeping/dreaming.


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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Mar 13, 2006, at 2:41 AM, sparaig wrote:
 
  Of course, we TBers wanna know WHY you're insisting on adding layers
  of complexity to simplicity...
 
 Yeah SCI was real succinct.


Seemed that way to me then (1974-ish), and now.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ 
wrote:
  [...]
   True, but not necessarily sad, if you mean they're not
   experiencing transcendental consciousness by itself.  If
   the process never becomes automatic, that *is* sad, but
   only in the sense that the person hasn't really got the
   knack of TM.
   
  
  Kill that Buddha, Judy. You're addicted to absolute 
effortlessness.
 
 grin


I was serious Judy. Perhaps TM is always effortless for you in the 
way that you have described, but you presented it as somehow 
*superior* to someone who doesn't have that experience.

That's a subtle expectation, right there.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Mar 13, 2006, at 9:50 AM, authfriend wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
  
  
   On Mar 13, 2006, at 2:44 AM, TurquoiseB wrote:
  
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ 
wrote:

 In any event, the point here is that unless one is doing
 a non-dual form of quiescence/transcendence meditation,
 there will--by it's very nature always be not only some
 dualism or some subtle meditational effort involved.
   
To continue this morning's train of thought
in the context of meditation, perhaps a style
of meditation that involves trying to move
from What is to What should be (whether
that should be is coming back to the mantra
or achieving transcendence) is, in Buddhist
terms, indulging and thus perpetuating the
desire/aversion cycle and taking the actor
further away from immersion in What is.
  
   In Shamatha, the Buddhist style of transcendence-style 
meditation,
   they achieve the automatic stage of transcendence (like Judy
   describes in her experience) as an early stage in the overall
  scheme
   of things and then proceed to more and more stable and vivid
   investigations of pure consciousness until one simply 
transcends
   the entire session --and can do so for hours at a time. In 
Dzogchen-
   style Shamatha, one simply rests in the natural state. For 
people
   who  do not require reference points (like a mantra, the breath,
   etc.) this can work quite well.
 
  But what does it do for you in daily life?  In TM, of
  course, experiences during meditation are fundamentally
  irrelevant.
 
 Essentially the same thing, although as already noted the 
technique  
 can continue beyond where TM would normally go, essentially 
expanding  
 the gap for extended periods of time. Afflictive emotional 
states  
 tend to subside as well as negative emotions like fear--suffering  
 diminishes and attentional vividness increases, during waking and  
 sleeping/dreaming.


And this doesn't happen during/as a result of TM?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
 
  
  On Mar 13, 2006, at 2:41 AM, sparaig wrote:
  
   Of course, we TBers wanna know WHY you're insisting on adding 
layers
   of complexity to simplicity...
  
  Yeah SCI was real succinct.
 
 SCI isn't about the *technique* per se.


Well, part of it DID go into the mechanics of transcending, IIRC.






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?


On Mar 13, 2006, at 10:49 AM, sparaig wrote:

  Essentially the same thing, although as already noted the
 technique
  can continue beyond where TM would normally go, essentially
 expanding
  the gap for extended periods of time. Afflictive emotional
 states
  tend to subside as well as negative emotions like fear--suffering
  diminishes and attentional vividness increases, during waking and
  sleeping/dreaming.
 

 And this doesn't happen during/as a result of TM?

Somewhat. In TM it's generally brief, but everyone is different. I  
don't know if I'd say TM reduces afflictive emotional states, I have  
my doubts.



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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Mar 13, 2006, at 10:49 AM, sparaig wrote:
 
   Essentially the same thing, although as already noted the
  technique
   can continue beyond where TM would normally go, essentially
  expanding
   the gap for extended periods of time. Afflictive emotional
  states
   tend to subside as well as negative emotions like fear--
suffering
   diminishes and attentional vividness increases, during waking 
and
   sleeping/dreaming.
  
 
  And this doesn't happen during/as a result of TM?
 
 Somewhat. In TM it's generally brief, but everyone is different. I  
 don't know if I'd say TM reduces afflictive emotional states, I 
have  
 my doubts.


No doubt.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ 
 wrote:
   [...]
True, but not necessarily sad, if you mean they're not
experiencing transcendental consciousness by itself.  If
the process never becomes automatic, that *is* sad, but
only in the sense that the person hasn't really got the
knack of TM.

   
   Kill that Buddha, Judy. You're addicted to absolute 
 effortlessness.
  
  grin
 
 I was serious Judy.

I know you were.  I was appreciating the comment.

 Perhaps TM is always effortless for you in the 
 way that you have described, but you presented it as somehow 
 *superior* to someone who doesn't have that experience.

Depends what you mean by superior.  All I'm saying
is that this is what TM *is*.  I don't give myself
any credit for having this experience.

I just think that claiming that TM inherently involves
effort is a self-fulfilling prophecy for those who buy
into it.  I'm using my own experience to argue against
this claim because it's the only experience about which
I can speak with any authority.

 That's a subtle expectation, right there.

Ooh, I dunno, not during meditation itself, it 
isn't.  Effortlessness in the TM sense *can't* be
an expectation, it can only be an experience (or,
as you often point out about transcendence, the
*absence* of experience: there's no there there).






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
   
   On Mar 13, 2006, at 2:41 AM, sparaig wrote:
   
Of course, we TBers wanna know WHY you're insisting on adding 
layers of complexity to simplicity...
   
   Yeah SCI was real succinct.
  
  SCI isn't about the *technique* per se.
 
 Well, part of it DID go into the mechanics of transcending, IIRC.

Yeah, but not about how to transcend, at least not
that I remember.

At one point, clergypersons were required to take the
SCI course before they could apply to learn the TM
technique, so it wasn't applied transcending, but
rather transcending in the abstract.

At any rate, I don't think anyone has ever claimed that
SCI was simple in the same sense the TM technique is
simple.  Succinct, maybe, although I'm not sure I'd
agree with you on that.  More succinct than other
intellectual presentations, perhaps.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-13 Thread TurquoiseB

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 At one point, clergypersons were required...

Just as a suggestion, doncha think 'clergy'
avoids the gender issue just fine, and without 
sounding so politically correct and silly?

 ...to take the
 SCI course before they could apply to learn the TM
 technique, so it wasn't applied transcending, but
 rather transcending in the abstract.
 
 At any rate, I don't think anyone has ever claimed that
 SCI was simple in the same sense the TM technique is
 simple.  Succinct, maybe, although I'm not sure I'd
 agree with you on that.  More succinct than other
 intellectual presentations, perhaps.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?