subject:"RE\: \[Flightgear\-devel\] terrasync"

Christian Mayer writes:
  Except, as Curt has already pointed out, rsync is more than just a
  file transfer protocol ... its functionality would need to be duplicated
  in FG/SG/plib before http could be used.
 
 The missing functionality is the ability to figure out if the tile has
 changed IIRC.
 
 But that'n no problem - HTTP already supports that. IIRC it send's a
 status code of 302 if the reqested data didn't change...

It's more than that though.  You need to figure out if the .stg file
has changed, then check any of the files refered to in the .stg file.
If any of those files are 3d models you need to load that model, parse
it's format, and determine if it refers to any other models or
textures, and recurse on those.  That suddenly means the client side
has to get a *lot* smarter.

We could continue to work on an entire directory level to avoid this
problem, but the client side is still going to have to do all the work
of rsync.

I agree that it would be *nice* to include this functionality directly
in FlightGear, but all the suggestions people have made, while they
would be *nice*, involve a substantial amount of work and thought to
impliment.

That means I probably means I'm not going to have time to do it, so
bear in mind that this discussion is going into a black hole unless
someone else picks up the slack and has time to continue developing
this.

Regards,

Curt.
-- 
Curtis Olson   IVLab / HumanFIRST Program   FlightGear Project
Twin Cities[EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Minnesota  http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt   http://www.flightgear.org

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RE: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

2002-12-05 Thread Michael Basler

Curt,

 That means I probably means I'm not going to have time to do it, so
 bear in mind that this discussion is going into a black hole unless
 someone else picks up the slack and has time to continue developing
 this.

We certainly have to accept this.

This said, it would be nice to find a way to enable normal Windows users
to run terrasync on a native Windows system (not being equipped with a
rsync.exe) without too much hassle. I for one would much regret if that
functionality were missing in the next official Windows binary port.
Besides, as several people already pointed out it's not just a neat feature
but even tangents design questions of FligthGear.

I think there were a few proposals, and perhaps experts can come to a
decision.

Regards, Michael

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

Norman Vine writes:

  But in any case I don't appreciate programs that automatically
  connect to the NET and I still want to have the default behaviour 
  NO networking without explicit authorization !

Right -- it should be built-in but disabled by default.  When we have
more GUIs, that won't be a problem -- we can even pop up a dialog
automatically the first time a user runs FlightGear.

Personally, I'm waiting to use this until it works with William
Riley's scenery -- I don't see much point flying around until we have
roads, rivers, and railroads.


All the best,


David

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

2002-12-05 Thread Christian Mayer

Curtis L. Olson wrote:
 
 Christian Mayer writes:
   Except, as Curt has already pointed out, rsync is more than just a
   file transfer protocol ... its functionality would need to be duplicated
   in FG/SG/plib before http could be used.
 
  The missing functionality is the ability to figure out if the tile has
  changed IIRC.
 
  But that'n no problem - HTTP already supports that. IIRC it send's a
  status code of 302 if the reqested data didn't change...
 
 It's more than that though.  You need to figure out if the .stg file
 has changed, then check any of the files refered to in the .stg file.
 If any of those files are 3d models you need to load that model, parse
 it's format, and determine if it refers to any other models or
 textures, and recurse on those.  That suddenly means the client side
 has to get a *lot* smarter.
 
 We could continue to work on an entire directory level to avoid this
 problem, but the client side is still going to have to do all the work
 of rsync.

We can do it directory wise. 

Or (I haven't looked at the code so I don't know if this makes sense) we
could increase the functionality of the tile loader. The current tile
loader stays at it is but it get's an additional functionality, where it
passes the names of the tiles that it's going to load in the future to
the terrasync thread (i.e. we specify two ranges - the frist as we do it
already with says which tiles we want in the memory and a second,
bigger, range for tiles that are probable to be loaded soon).

 That means I probably means I'm not going to have time to do it, so
 bear in mind that this discussion is going into a black hole unless
 someone else picks up the slack and has time to continue developing
 this.

I know that problem...

Probably it's time to thank you for your effords again (we can't do that
often engouh...)

CU,
Christian

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

2002-12-05 Thread Norman Vine

Christian Mayer writes:

 Curtis L. Olson wrote:
  
  Christian Mayer writes:
Except, as Curt has already pointed out, rsync is more than just a
file transfer protocol ... its functionality would need to be duplicated
in FG/SG/plib before http could be used.
  
   The missing functionality is the ability to figure out if the tile has
   changed IIRC.
  
   But that'n no problem - HTTP already supports that. IIRC it send's a
   status code of 302 if the reqested data didn't change...
   
  We could continue to work on an entire directory level to avoid this
  problem, but the client side is still going to have to do all the work
  of rsync.
 
 We can do it directory wise. 

we don't need rsync all we need is SMART ftp in a thread

i.e in Python

def download_if_newer(self, source, target, mode=''):

Download a file only if it's newer than the target on the
local host or if the target file does not exist.

source_timestamp = self.path.getmtime(source)
if os.path.exists(target):
target_timestamp = os.path.getmtime(target)
else:
# every timestamp is newer than this one
target_timestamp = 0.0
if source_timestamp  target_timestamp:
self.download(source, target, mode)

FWIW 
I have started prototyping a Python version using these
http://c0re.jp/c0de/ftpparsemodule/
http://www.ndh.net/home/sschwarzer/python/ftputil.html

eventually I think a combination of 
http://cr.yp.to/ftpparse.html
and PLIBs net library will be all we need to build this

however in the long run I would like to see an xml-rpc 
implemetation as this would be much more flexible

Cheers

Norman


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

The other thing that rsync does is it deletes files that are no longer
on the server side.  I'm sure that's very doable too, but it's an
extra step to consider.

Regards,

Curt.


Norman Vine writes:
 Christian Mayer writes:
 
  Curtis L. Olson wrote:
   
   Christian Mayer writes:
 Except, as Curt has already pointed out, rsync is more than just a
 file transfer protocol ... its functionality would need to be duplicated
 in FG/SG/plib before http could be used.
   
The missing functionality is the ability to figure out if the tile has
changed IIRC.
   
But that'n no problem - HTTP already supports that. IIRC it send's a
status code of 302 if the reqested data didn't change...

   We could continue to work on an entire directory level to avoid this
   problem, but the client side is still going to have to do all the work
   of rsync.
  
  We can do it directory wise. 
 
 we don't need rsync all we need is SMART ftp in a thread
 
 i.e in Python
 
 def download_if_newer(self, source, target, mode=''):
 
 Download a file only if it's newer than the target on the
 local host or if the target file does not exist.
 
 source_timestamp = self.path.getmtime(source)
 if os.path.exists(target):
 target_timestamp = os.path.getmtime(target)
 else:
 # every timestamp is newer than this one
 target_timestamp = 0.0
 if source_timestamp  target_timestamp:
 self.download(source, target, mode)
 
 FWIW 
 I have started prototyping a Python version using these
 http://c0re.jp/c0de/ftpparsemodule/
 http://www.ndh.net/home/sschwarzer/python/ftputil.html
 
 eventually I think a combination of 
 http://cr.yp.to/ftpparse.html
 and PLIBs net library will be all we need to build this
 
 however in the long run I would like to see an xml-rpc 
 implemetation as this would be much more flexible
 
 Cheers
 
 Norman
 
 
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RE: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

Michael Basler writes:
 We certainly have to accept this.
 
 This said, it would be nice to find a way to enable normal Windows users
 to run terrasync on a native Windows system (not being equipped with a
 rsync.exe) without too much hassle. I for one would much regret if that
 functionality were missing in the next official Windows binary port.
 Besides, as several people already pointed out it's not just a neat feature
 but even tangents design questions of FligthGear.
 
 I think there were a few proposals, and perhaps experts can come to a
 decision.

I think this whole topic brings out some of the differences in unix
culture vs. windows culture.

Unix users love to build up collections of smaller apps with specific
functionality and then find ways to build larger functionality out of
these smaller utils by glueing them together with scripts, pipes, or
occasionally a little C code.  Then I suppose you have things like
perl and python that come along and build in a lot of the low level
functionality directly into the script language for performance
reasons, but I digress ...

Then in the windows culture, people expect larger, monolithic apps
that do everything for everybody.

There's good and bad points to each approach in terms of usability,
development time, performance, etc.  I'm not trying to start an OS
discussion here.

The point is, the terrasync util was developed in the spirit of the
unix culture and builds on lower level tools which provide specific
functionality.

Essentially I yanked some of the nmea message parsing code out of
flightgear, pasted that into the udp_client demo out of plib, added a
function call to generate the scenery tree directory names for the
current and surrounding locations, and hand that off to rsync to pull
the data over.  I think I had something working in under an hour, and
I probably spent another hour or two after that tweaking an optimizing
and doing some long test flights with accelerated time to see how far
I could push things.

It sounds like what we need is for someone to rewrite the rsync
functionality (get a list of files in the remote directory, compare to
the list of file in the local directory, delete any that aren't still
on the server, and fetch any that are different or new on the server.)
Do this all using the http protocol.

But, personally, I feel like I have scratched my itch, the terrasync
tool works for me, and I have no desire to reimpliment rsync which
works beautifully already.

I'm happy to answer questions for anyone who wants to work on a
monolithic windows version themselves.

Regards,

Curt.
-- 
Curtis Olson   IVLab / HumanFIRST Program   FlightGear Project
Twin Cities[EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Minnesota  http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt   http://www.flightgear.org

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

2002-12-05 Thread William L. Riley

On Wednesday 04 December 2002 08:20 pm, David Megginson wrote:
 Personally, I'm waiting to use this until it works with William
 Riley's scenery -- I don't see much point flying around until we have
 roads, rivers, and railroads.

You are welcome to use this for testing. I have limited bandwidth though. 
(400Kbps upstream)

terrasync --help

randdtechnologies.com::Scenery-0.7.9

Wm

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[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

2002-12-05 Thread Christian Mayer

Norman Vine wrote:
 
 we don't need rsync all we need is SMART ftp in a thread
 

Please don't use FTP!

FTP is a horrible protocol. As firewall admin you've got the problem
that FTP decides dynamically what port it uses for data transfer. So you
have to open quite a few ports.

Dunno if that's the problem of the NAT part, but I can't reliably use
FTP from my normal computer as packets get filterd at my
router/firewall. This is already quite bad (e.g. for the SuSE auto
update) so we should do it better. And we should help to get rid of FTP.

CU,
Christian

PS: FTP also transferes passwords in plaintext to make things even
worse...

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

Christian Mayer writes:

  The missing functionality is the ability to figure out if the tile has
  changed IIRC.
  
  But that'n no problem - HTTP already supports that. IIRC it send's a
  status code of 302 if the reqested data didn't change...

Exactly -- as long as the files are available unpacked in the standard
directory structure via HTTP, everything should work just the same.


All the best,


David

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

Curtis L. Olson writes:

  It's more than that though.  You need to figure out if the .stg file
  has changed, then check any of the files refered to in the .stg file.
  If any of those files are 3d models you need to load that model, parse
  it's format, and determine if it refers to any other models or
  textures, and recurse on those.  That suddenly means the client side
  has to get a *lot* smarter.

Why not a lot stupider?  How long does it take just to check the
datestamp on every file in the scenery directory using HTTP?  Always
load all the 3D models the first time, then only the scenery tiles you
actually need.


All the best,


David

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

David Megginson writes:
 Curtis L. Olson writes:
 
   It's more than that though.  You need to figure out if the .stg file
   has changed, then check any of the files refered to in the .stg file.
   If any of those files are 3d models you need to load that model, parse
   it's format, and determine if it refers to any other models or
   textures, and recurse on those.  That suddenly means the client side
   has to get a *lot* smarter.
 
 Why not a lot stupider?  How long does it take just to check the
 datestamp on every file in the scenery directory using HTTP?  Always
 load all the 3D models the first time, then only the scenery tiles you
 actually need.

Something like that would probably work ...

Load all the non scenery tiles first (assuming these are models or
textures or files associated with models.)  Then load the scenery
tiles as needed.  We still need someone to impliment the scheme
though. :-)  There's always 100 ways to skin a cat ... assuming you
have 100 cats that is ...

Curt.
-- 
Curtis Olson   IVLab / HumanFIRST Program   FlightGear Project
Twin Cities[EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Minnesota  http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt   http://www.flightgear.org

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

Curtis L. Olson writes:

  Load all the non scenery tiles first (assuming these are models or
  textures or files associated with models.)  Then load the scenery
  tiles as needed.  We still need someone to impliment the scheme
  though. :-)  There's always 100 ways to skin a cat ... assuming you
  have 100 cats that is ...

That shows an almost Monty-Pythonesque antipathy towards felines.


All the best,


David

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

2002-12-05 Thread Norman Vine

Curtis L. Olson writes:
 David Megginson writes:
  Curtis L. Olson writes:
  
It's more than that though.  You need to figure out if the .stg file
has changed, then check any of the files refered to in the .stg file.
If any of those files are 3d models you need to load that model, parse
it's format, and determine if it refers to any other models or
textures, and recurse on those.  That suddenly means the client side
has to get a *lot* smarter.
  
  Why not a lot stupider?  How long does it take just to check the
  datestamp on every file in the scenery directory using HTTP?  Always
  load all the 3D models the first time, then only the scenery tiles you
  actually need.
 
 Something like that would probably work ...
 
 Load all the non scenery tiles first (assuming these are models or
 textures or files associated with models.)  Then load the scenery
 tiles as needed.  We still need someone to impliment the scheme
 though. :-)  There's always 100 ways to skin a cat ... assuming you
 have 100 cats that is ...

Is there a http:// address for the Scenery files

All I can find is the ftp:// address

Norman

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

2002-12-05 Thread Arnt Karlsen

On Wed, 4 Dec 2002 21:37:08 -0800 (PST), 
The Tone'ster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 
 Not that my input means diddly ... but YES.
 
 I had the exact same thought.
 
 Wouldn't it be great it the terrasync util could be pointed at an http
 server that could stream data back.
 
 Simple, well known type of service.
 
 Opens the door to random individuals hosting scenery even ?
/¯\

..I especially like the plural meaning, like individuals doing
customized sceneries, Warbird-style or Mars flights anyone?

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

2002-12-05 Thread Tony Peden

On Thu, 2002-12-05 at 07:28, Christian Mayer wrote:
 Norman Vine wrote:
  
  we don't need rsync all we need is SMART ftp in a thread
  
 
 Please don't use FTP!
 
 FTP is a horrible protocol. As firewall admin you've got the problem
 that FTP decides dynamically what port it uses for data transfer. So you
 have to open quite a few ports.

In pasv mode (settable from the client) it uses only one ...

 
 Dunno if that's the problem of the NAT part, but I can't reliably use
 FTP from my normal computer as packets get filterd at my
 router/firewall. This is already quite bad (e.g. for the SuSE auto
 update) so we should do it better. And we should help to get rid of FTP.

2.4 Linux kernels don't seem to have any trouble with it...

 
 CU,
 Christian
 
 PS: FTP also transferes passwords in plaintext to make things even
 worse...

And http doesn't?
 
 --
 The idea is to die young as late as possible.-- Ashley Montague
 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

2002-12-05 Thread Cameron Moore

* [EMAIL PROTECTED] (David Megginson) [2002.12.05 09:45]:
 Christian Mayer writes:
 
   The missing functionality is the ability to figure out if the tile has
   changed IIRC.
   
   But that'n no problem - HTTP already supports that. IIRC it send's a
   status code of 302 if the reqested data didn't change...
 
 Exactly -- as long as the files are available unpacked in the standard
 directory structure via HTTP, everything should work just the same.

We would need to preserve the timestamp for the 302 code stuff to work.

The biggest difference between rsync and HTTP is that rsync downloads
diffs[1] while HTTP must download the entire file.  This is a big plus
for people with slow connections.

I guess _my_ question in regard to rsync is how much would rsync
actually help in our case.  If a tile is changed -- say we fixed a
runway or something -- would a diff accomplish anything since we have
binary scenery files that are also gzipped?  Would the rolling checksums
that rsync does all end up being different, so we are always downloading
the entire file anyway?  If this is the case, then rsync's main
advantage is worthless to us.

[1] ftp://rsync.samba.org/pub/rsync/tech_report.ps
-- 
Cameron Moore
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\ finished? Shouldn't they be called builts?  /

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

Andy Ross writes:
 
 I think you have to give serious thought to enabling this by default,

Great idea,  got a URL for a native WIN32 version of rsync ??

Best

Norman

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

2002-12-04 Thread Andy Ross

Norman Vine wrote:
 Andy Ross writes:
  I think you have to give serious thought to enabling this by default,

 Great idea,  got a URL for a native WIN32 version of rsync ??

Doing a google on rsync cygwin pulled up this post that claims that
it works normally out of the box.  You have to build it yourself, or
did as of a year ago anyway.

   http://www.cygwin.com/ml/cygwin-apps/2001-01/msg00021.html

The rsync distribution is tiny -- less than half the size of metakit.
And it has zero meaningful dependencies (file system access and the
sockets API).  I don't see any particular reason we can't require it
as part of the SimGear build.

Even so, there's still no reason fgfs can't try to spawn an rsync on
the assumption that it exists on the users path.  If it fails it
fails; having no scenery is a non-fatal error condition that the user
would have had to deal with anyway.

Andy

-- 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

Andy Ross writes:

 Norman Vine wrote:
  Andy Ross writes:
   I think you have to give serious thought to enabling this by default,
 
  Great idea,  got a URL for a native WIN32 version of rsync ??
 
 Doing a google on rsync cygwin pulled up this post that claims that
 it works normally out of the box.  

rsync is part of the Cygwin distribution these days 
but we need a 'native' WIN32 port before we make it
the default

Until then or until we have the equivalant 
IMHO terrasync should be an 'option' 

Shouldn't be to hard to program equivalent functionality using 
the PLIB net routines though if someone was so inclined.

or perhaps we could substitute Unison
http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/unison/

Norman


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

2002-12-04 Thread Christian Mayer

Norman Vine wrote:
 
 Andy Ross writes:
 
  I think you have to give serious thought to enabling this by default,
 
 Great idea,  got a URL for a native WIN32 version of rsync ??

IMHO we should switch to HTTP.

This avoids firewall problems and clients are also easy to get.

CU,
Christian

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

2002-12-04 Thread Erik Hofman

Norman Vine wrote:


rsync is part of the Cygwin distribution these days 
but we need a 'native' WIN32 port before we make it
the default

How about this one:
http://winrsync.sunsite.dk/

Erik



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

Erik Hofman writes:

 Norman Vine wrote:

  rsync is part of the Cygwin distribution these days
  but we need a 'native' WIN32 port before we make it
  the default

 How about this one:
 http://winrsync.sunsite.dk/

Hmmm Just a couple of dependencies :-)

Norman

a.. WINrsync_latest.exe ~2.7M Windows installer, includes PHP-GTK and rsync. Will not 
interrupt other installs of PHP-GTK, rsync,
cygwin etc.
a..


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

2002-12-04 Thread Cameron Moore

* [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Andy Ross) [2002.12.04 13:21]:
I just tried this last night. Curt, this rocks.

I haven't tried it, but I can't wait to do so.

I think you have to give serious thought to enabling this by default,
either by adding it to the fgfs binary or by having fgfs spawn it as a
child. It turns the job of downloading, installing and updating
scenery from an annoying sysadmin chore into a trivial noop that your
proverbial grandmother could use. This is a huge, huge win. Hiding
it inside a separate executable and requiring special command line
arguments is doing casual users a major disservice -- they *want* this
feature. (Sure, some will want the ability to disable it. But the
majority of users will see a lot of benefit from having it on by
default.)

http://librsync.samba.org/

It's LGPL'd and pre-1.0. Here's their current TODO list from CVS:

http://cvs.samba.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/librsync/TODO?rev=1.31content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup

Related to the above, you'll probably want to segregate a release
scenery directory from the development scenery to prevent
incompatible changes from being pushed to users without current code.

I agree.

It occurs to me that if fgfs tries to load a scenery tile while rsync
is still pulling, you will get corrupt tile and (worst case) crash the
tile parser. Is there a need for locking or protection against this
sort of thing? Just a mail-spool-style dot lock should be
sufficient -- if FlightGear sees a .terrasync-in-progress file, it
can refuse to load the directory. [This is the cue for someone to
jump in with a discussion about all the dangers and pitfalls of
different locking mechanisms on different filesystems.] Apologies if
a feature like this is already in there, I haven't read the code.

Locking an entire directory would be bad thing. We would want to do
per-file locks. The simplest cross-platform solution is a .lock file
for a given file. Using flock or equivalent would be a bit more
complicated, but I'm not familiar with anything other than Linux.
Couldn't we have a simple filelock function in SG with a bunch of
#ifdef's each platform's implementation? I assume most OSes have the
same abilities -- exclusive write, read, or both.

Again, magnificent feature. I love it.

Yes, I can't wait to play with it.
--
Cameron Moore
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

2002-12-04 Thread Cameron Moore

* [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Christian Mayer) [2002.12.04 14:05]:
 Norman Vine wrote:
  
  Andy Ross writes:
  
   I think you have to give serious thought to enabling this by default,
  
  Great idea,  got a URL for a native WIN32 version of rsync ??
 
 IMHO we should switch to HTTP.
 
 This avoids firewall problems and clients are also easy to get.

Are you playing with FG at work?  :-)
-- 
Cameron Moore
[ I have an inferiority complex.  But it's not a very good one. ]

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

Andy Ross writes:

 Norman Vine wrote:
  rsync is part of the Cygwin distribution these days but we need a
  'native' WIN32 port before we make it the default
 
 Why?  It doesn't hurt anything to try spawning a non-existant program.
 It just fails to load any scenery, which is exactly the behavior you
 want.  Is there something that will actually break on windows if we
 make this the default?  I can't see anything.

DOH
Of course you are right no rsync no action doh :-)

But in any case I don't appreciate programs that automatically
connect to the NET and I still want to have the default behaviour 
NO networking without explicit authorization !

Of course this doen't really matter to you or myself in that
we can compile in or own defaults,  I am thinking of the 
naive user who thinks that they have caught a virus because
their fire wall alarm starts ringing as soon as FGFS is fired up :-)

Cheers

Norman



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RE: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

2002-12-04 Thread Michael Basler

Andy,

 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Andy Ross
 Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 8:43 PM

 Doing a google on rsync cygwin pulled up this post that claims that
 it works normally out of the box.  You have to build it yourself, or
 did as of a year ago anyway.

http://www.cygwin.com/ml/cygwin-apps/2001-01/msg00021.html

rsync comes with Cygwin and can be installed via the installer. This way I
can run terrasync from a Cygwin bash shell (runs pretty well).

However, this would require any Windows user to install Cygwin first, which
I am sure not any user is fond of just for running the FlightGear binary.
And as Norman pointed out there is no native rsync delivered with Windows
(any flavor AFAIK).

One ugly solution might be to provide just the rsync.exe, but I don't know
if this works (it would require the cygwin dll, at least). Plus this might
cause licensing troubles.

Switching to http as Christian pointed out would be one clean solution,
although I can't judge how hard it's to realize.

Regards, Michael

--
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

2002-12-04 Thread Christian Mayer

Cameron Moore wrote:
 
 * [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Christian Mayer) [2002.12.04 14:05]:
  Norman Vine wrote:
  
   Andy Ross writes:
   
I think you have to give serious thought to enabling this by default,
  
   Great idea,  got a URL for a native WIN32 version of rsync ??
 
  IMHO we should switch to HTTP.
 
  This avoids firewall problems and clients are also easy to get.
 
 Are you playing with FG at work?  :-)

No. And chances are my firewall at home does work... But I don't know
how the firewall at my univeristy is configured (and I'm allowed to use
FGFS there...)

Anyway, I can understand anybody who denies as much as possible in the
firewall config (doesn't matter if it's at work or at home). And opening
a port just for FGFS for a protocoll that can be replaced with a
protocol that passes through most firewalls flawlessly doesn't seem like
good practice.

Oh, and changing to HTTP would allow proxies to cache the scenery...

CU,
Christian

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

2002-12-04 Thread Andy Ross

Norman Vine wrote:
 But in any case I don't appreciate programs that automatically connect
 to the NET and I still want to have the default behaviour NO
 networking without explicit authorization !

That's a fair point, although as long as we aren't transmitting any
data I don't see any ethical problems.  Some users on per-minute
dialup might not want FlightGear to fire up their modem.

But certainly we want this to be as easy as possible.  To us, it's
only a major convenience.  But to a casual user, it turns FlightGear
from a bay-area only demo into a whole-world flight simulator.  That's
a huge win.

So if it's not the raw default, it needs to be a trivially simple
switch that any user can throw.  I'd be happy with something like a
--auto-scenery argument (or better yet, a runtime menu option).  But
having to run terragear manually and specify an atlas argument to fgfs
is too much complexity for the casual downloader.  These are the
people that can most benefit from this feature; and they get a *lot*
of benefit from it.

Andy

-- 
Andrew J. RossNextBus Information Systems
Senior Software Engineer  Emeryville, CA
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.nextbus.com
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

Andy Ross writes:

 Norman Vine wrote:
  But in any case I don't appreciate programs that automatically connect
  to the NET and I still want to have the default behaviour NO
  networking without explicit authorization !
 
 So if it's not the raw default, it needs to be a trivially simple
 switch that any user can throw.  I'd be happy with something like a
 --auto-scenery argument (or better yet, a runtime menu option).  But
 having to run terragear manually and specify an atlas argument to fgfs
 is too much complexity for the casual downloader.  These are the
 people that can most benefit from this feature; and they get a *lot*
 of benefit from it.

I agree completely

One thing we want to get absolutely right is making sure that it is 
as easy to stop the daemon as it was to start it up :-)

We need to make sure it exits() when FGFS exits() too

Cheers

Norman

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

2002-12-04 Thread Andy Ross

Michael Basler wrote:
 One ugly solution might be to provide just the rsync.exe, but I don't
 know if this works (it would require the cygwin dll, at least). Plus
 this might cause licensing troubles.

Why not?  I can't speak to whether it works with (only) the cygwin
DLL, but there's nothing wrong IMHO with shipping required binaries in
a binary distribution.  Does the windows binary currently ship a
metakit DLL, or link it statically?  This isn't much different.
Again, rsync is a very small program.

Andy

-- 
Andrew J. RossNextBus Information Systems
Senior Software Engineer  Emeryville, CA
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.nextbus.com
Men go crazy in conflagrations.  They only get better one by one.
 - Sting (misquoted)


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

Andy Ross writes:

 Michael Basler wrote:
  One ugly solution might be to provide just the rsync.exe, but I don't
  know if this works (it would require the cygwin dll, at least). Plus
  this might cause licensing troubles.
 
 Why not?  I can't speak to whether it works with (only) the cygwin
 DLL, but there's nothing wrong IMHO with shipping required binaries in
 a binary distribution.  Does the windows binary currently ship a
 metakit DLL, or link it statically?  This isn't much different.
 Again, rsync is a very small program.

I don't think we want to ship the cygwin dll as multiple copies / versions 
of this dll installed on the same machine is a major PITA.  Never mind 
the Cygwin licensing that requires us to keep the source for the DLLs we 
ship available on our servers for 3 years.

If a windows user wants rsync functionality they can install it from the 
Cygwin distribution channels easily enough.

If someone was to volunteer to handle all the help-desk inquiries as to why 
Cygwin programs aren't working I could be persuaded otherwise :-)

Cheers

Norman

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

2002-12-04 Thread Tony Peden

On Wed, 2002-12-04 at 12:47, Christian Mayer wrote:
 Cameron Moore wrote:
  
  * [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Christian Mayer) [2002.12.04 14:05]:
   Norman Vine wrote:
   
Andy Ross writes:

 I think you have to give serious thought to enabling this by default,
   
Great idea,  got a URL for a native WIN32 version of rsync ??
  
   IMHO we should switch to HTTP.
  
   This avoids firewall problems and clients are also easy to get.
  
  Are you playing with FG at work?  :-)
 
 No. And chances are my firewall at home does work... But I don't know
 how the firewall at my univeristy is configured (and I'm allowed to use
 FGFS there...)
 
 Anyway, I can understand anybody who denies as much as possible in the
 firewall config (doesn't matter if it's at work or at home). And opening
 a port just for FGFS for a protocoll that can be replaced with a
 protocol that passes through most firewalls flawlessly doesn't seem like
 good practice.
 
 Oh, and changing to HTTP would allow proxies to cache the scenery...

Except, as Curt has already pointed out, rsync is more than just a
file transfer protocol ... its functionality would need to be duplicated
in FG/SG/plib before http could be used.

 
 CU,
 Christian
 
 --
 The idea is to die young as late as possible.-- Ashley Montague
 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

2002-12-04 Thread Tony Peden

On Wed, 2002-12-04 at 12:33, Norman Vine wrote:
 Andy Ross writes:
 
  Norman Vine wrote:
   rsync is part of the Cygwin distribution these days but we need a
   'native' WIN32 port before we make it the default
  
  Why?  It doesn't hurt anything to try spawning a non-existant program.
  It just fails to load any scenery, which is exactly the behavior you
  want.  Is there something that will actually break on windows if we
  make this the default?  I can't see anything.
 
 DOH
 Of course you are right no rsync no action doh :-)
 
 But in any case I don't appreciate programs that automatically
 connect to the NET and I still want to have the default behaviour 
 NO networking without explicit authorization !

Here, here.

 
 Of course this doen't really matter to you or myself in that
 we can compile in or own defaults,  I am thinking of the 
 naive user who thinks that they have caught a virus because
 their fire wall alarm starts ringing as soon as FGFS is fired up :-)
 
 Cheers
 
 Norman
 
 
 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

2002-12-04 Thread Martin Spott

 I think you have to give serious thought to enabling this by default,
 either by adding it to the fgfs binary or by having fgfs spawn it as a
 child.  [...]

Spawning a child might be a nice option, because it eases running the task
asynchronously - anything different is probably not an option (TM  ;-)

Martin.
-- 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] terrasync

2002-12-04 Thread The Tone'ster


Not that my input means diddly ... but YES.

I had the exact same thought.

Wouldn't it be great it the terrasync util could be pointed at an http server
that could stream data back.

Simple, well known type of service.

Opens the door to random individuals hosting scenery even ?

Tony

--- Christian Mayer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Norman Vine wrote:
  
  Andy Ross writes:
  
   I think you have to give serious thought to enabling this by default,
  
  Great idea,  got a URL for a native WIN32 version of rsync ??
 
 IMHO we should switch to HTTP.
 
 This avoids firewall problems and clients are also easy to get.
 
 CU,
 Christian
 


=


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RE: [Flightgear-devel] Terrasync 3rd party util

2002-12-03 Thread Curtis L. Olson

Michael Basler writes:
 it works with Cygwin, and it is a really cool innonvative feature.
 
 A couple of nits only:
 
 - I still would suggest transferring this into FlightGear. I first had to
 download and install gpc (do most Terragear users recall they did once?),
 which might be annoying for beginners. Terrasync certainly does not make use
 of it ;-)

I will move this code over into the FlightGear tree.

 - A more serious problem: Terrasync relies on external rsync + mkdir. At
 present, I start FlightGear from the usual Windows batch (with proper
 parameters of course), while I start Terrasync from within a Cygwin bash
 thus having both in the (Cygwin) path.
 
 However: We sure will ship this with the next official version of all
 supported platforms, won't we? Thus we'll need a way to get this working
 standalone under Windows. I may stay corrected, but standard windows comes
 without both tools. Maybe one of the Windows gurus will suggest a solution
 to this.

You are correct that it would be nice to have a stand alone util that
works on all platforms.  However, using rsync and mkdir allowed me to
hack this together in an evening and get it working rather well.  If I
sat down and wrote a standalone util and reimplimented all the rsync
functionality, this would have been more of a week(s) project which I
just don't have time for.

 Otherwise, I am still perplexed how fluently this works! BTW, I am sitting
 behind an ISDN line (well, 2xISDN, to be honest).
 
 Finally: Please keep this a top secrect. Otherwise, I already foresee MS's
 variant for FS2004:
 
 Please register with PASSPORT before using our scenery.

How about $3.99 per minute ... :-)

Curt.
-- 
Curtis Olson   IVLab / HumanFIRST Program   FlightGear Project
Twin Cities[EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Minnesota  http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt   http://www.flightgear.org

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrasync 3rd party util

2002-12-03 Thread Curtis L. Olson

David Luff writes:
 Well, it mostly worked.  After starting in an area with no scenery, it took
 a couple of minutes waiting before the appropriate airport came down, and
 FlightGear could be restarted properly.  Flying the C172, terrasync mostly
 kept up, but in both my tests (one in the bay area, one in the relatively
 sparser UK) managed to miss one tile.  I may be mistaken, but it appears to
 download a whole 1x1 degree area at once in alphabetical order, and there
 were times when nothing was coming down, so I think that if the order of
 the tile download within a 1x1 chunk was optimised to get the closest
 first, and if downloading was continued almost continuously based on
 position and heading, then I'm quite sure it could be made to keep up no
 problem.

Yes, by downloading 1x1 degree chunks with rsync I save myself a *lot*
of trouble and don't need to parse individual .stg files which could
refer to separate models which could refer to separate textures which
would be a major pain to parse through all that and figure out the
specific files that are needed (especially considering the variety of
3d model formats we support.)  Much easier to just pull the whole
subdirectory.  You are right that this isn't as efficient as it could
be, and there are times where no downloading is going on, but like I
said, this was a one evening project and I don't intend to make it my
life's work. :-) And it has kind of a nice clean simplicity and small
sizethat would be a shame to disrupt. :-)

Regards,

Curt.
-- 
Curtis Olson   IVLab / HumanFIRST Program   FlightGear Project
Twin Cities[EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Minnesota  http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt   http://www.flightgear.org

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrasync 3rd party util

2002-11-28 Thread David Luff

On 11/25/02 at 10:11 AM Curtis L. Olson wrote:

David Luff writes:
 Is it likely to work over a 56K modem?

David,

First of all I will say that that I haven't tried it.  But, I
encourage you to try it yourself since I want to know the answer
too. :-)

I suggest that you start out in the C172 and fly with that.  If you
have good luck there, then you can try faster planes.

I'm fortunate enough to have a DSL connection at home (they finally
got service to my area) and with the latest tweaks to terrasync I've
been able to sustain upwares of 2000 kts. with 32km visibility.
(That's in the a4, time accelerated either 2x or 3x ...)

So, if you are flying at 1/10 the speed, you might do just fine with
1/10 the bandwidth.

Let us know ... :-)


Well, it mostly worked.  After starting in an area with no scenery, it took
a couple of minutes waiting before the appropriate airport came down, and
FlightGear could be restarted properly.  Flying the C172, terrasync mostly
kept up, but in both my tests (one in the bay area, one in the relatively
sparser UK) managed to miss one tile.  I may be mistaken, but it appears to
download a whole 1x1 degree area at once in alphabetical order, and there
were times when nothing was coming down, so I think that if the order of
the tile download within a 1x1 chunk was optimised to get the closest
first, and if downloading was continued almost continuously based on
position and heading, then I'm quite sure it could be made to keep up no
problem.

Very impressive stuff anyway.

Cheers - Dave


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrasync 3rd party util

2002-11-28 Thread David Luff

On 11/25/02 at 3:27 PM Tony Peden wrote:
 OK, I'll give it a go.  I've a slight problem though in that I'm on
 Linux/GeForce3 at home, and the nVidia drivers will only work if I do 
 $/sbin/telinit 1
 $root passwd
 $make install in kernel and GLX nVidia directories
 $edit XFConfig-4
 $/sbin/telinit 2

Odd, the X-server usually runs setuid root (it runs as root no matter
who starts it) so permissions shouldn't be an issue.

Its not a permissions thing AFAICT, but an X tries to start but fails
thing.  To be quite honest I've sort of given up on fixing it properly
given that I'm about the upgrade the thing anyway.  I will be keeping the
graphics card though so I'm fingers crossed it works better next time :-)

Cheers - Dave


 
 Unfortunately this leaves sound unworking, and I suspect probably net
 access as well.  On a normal reboot X fails to start and I have to put
the
 old XFConfig-4 back.



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrasync 3rd party util

2002-11-28 Thread Julian Foad

David Luff wrote:



David Luff writes:


Is it likely to work over a 56K modem?



Well, it mostly worked.  After starting in an area with no scenery, it took
a couple of minutes waiting before the appropriate airport came down, and
FlightGear could be restarted properly.  Flying the C172, terrasync mostly
kept up, but in both my tests (one in the bay area, one in the relatively
sparser UK) managed to miss one tile.  I may be mistaken, but it appears to
download a whole 1x1 degree area at once in alphabetical order, and there
were times when nothing was coming down,


I had a very similar experience.  I think the pauses were because the 
rsync server was busy; one or two local rsync processes were always 
active, but often seemed to be waiting for data.  The local TerraSync 
would create another immediately when I killed them.  I then switched 
airports, but it did not cancel the current rsync processes so nothing 
was fetched for the new location until all the outstanding fetches 
completed (or, in fact, were killed by me).

so I think that if the order of
the tile download within a 1x1 chunk was optimised to get the closest
first,


That would be more difficult.  In the normal (intended) scenario, when 
you have already got the current degree chunk, it doesn't matter much in 
what order it fetches the insides of the chunk ahead, so Curt just asks 
rsync to get the whole directory.  Cancelling outstanding rsync 
processes would also be considerably more difficult (to do portably).

and if downloading was continued almost continuously based on
position and heading, then I'm quite sure it could be made to keep up no
problem.


I think that is what it is trying to do already.


Very impressive stuff anyway.


Absolutely.

- Julian



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrasync 3rd party util

2002-11-26 Thread Martin Spott

 If you are _allowed_ to be playing / using Flight Gear at work, then you 
 can try asking your network administrator to enable rsync protocol.

I _am_ the network administrator and I strongly dislike direct connections
through the firewall without proxy(-filter)   But this is a different
topic  ;-)

 [Note: I'm in this position of having FTP but not rsync at work.  But I 
 can't think of a good reason why I should be allowed to run Flight Gear, 
 or any other justification for requesting rsync access.]

I do work as a freelancer - so I can use my time the way I want  :-)
This still does not solve the problem described. We'll see what can be done
for improvement,

Martin.
-- 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrasync 3rd party util

2002-11-26 Thread Curtis L. Olson

Doh, was meant for a different recipient, and replied to the wrong
message ... sorry.

Curt.


Curtis L. Olson writes:
 Interesting, much more of a glider configuration.  I have something
 smaller with no additional space for extra stuff here:
 
 http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt/Models/AceHigh/acehigh.jpg
 
 Still flyable if I wanted to ...
 
 Curt.
 
 
 Martin Spott writes:
   If you are _allowed_ to be playing / using Flight Gear at work, then you 
   can try asking your network administrator to enable rsync protocol.
  
  I _am_ the network administrator and I strongly dislike direct connections
  through the firewall without proxy(-filter)   But this is a different
  topic  ;-)
  
   [Note: I'm in this position of having FTP but not rsync at work.  But I 
   can't think of a good reason why I should be allowed to run Flight Gear, 
   or any other justification for requesting rsync access.]
  
  I do work as a freelancer - so I can use my time the way I want  :-)
  This still does not solve the problem described. We'll see what can be done
  for improvement,
  
  Martin.
  -- 
   Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are !
  --
  
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 Twin Cities[EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrasync 3rd party util

Norman Vine writes:
 Curtis L. Olson writes:
 
  I have my terrasync utility up to a point where it has some basic
  functionality so I thought I should share it with you all. 
 
 Currently flying terrasync'ed with Cygwin 
 
 Cool !

I did a lot more tweaking of this util over the weekend and it's
working pretty well now ... has anyone else had a chance to try it?

ADV: don't bother spending days or weeks downloading all the scenery
for the world before you fly.  Just install the base program and
supporting files.  Turn on terrasync and it will fetch just the tiles
you need as you fly.  

Have you just spent hours/days/weeks downloading all the world scenery
only to have the evil project regenerate it with updated data or to
fix some problem?  No problem, just enable terrasync and it will
upgrade your local scenery as you fly.

Terrasync saves the data to your HD so next time you fly a route, you
already have the data and you don't need to download it again.

Terrasync makes you look and feel like you have it all, even though
you don't. :-)

Regards,

Curt.
-- 
Curtis Olson   IVLab / HumanFIRST Program   FlightGear Project
Twin Cities[EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Minnesota  http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt   http://www.flightgear.org

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrasync 3rd party util

David Luff writes:
 On 11/25/02 at 9:06 AM Curtis L. Olson wrote:
 ADV: don't bother spending days or weeks downloading all the scenery
 for the world before you fly.  Just install the base program and
 supporting files.  Turn on terrasync and it will fetch just the tiles
 you need as you fly.  
 
 Have you just spent hours/days/weeks downloading all the world scenery
 only to have the evil project regenerate it with updated data or to
 fix some problem?  No problem, just enable terrasync and it will
 upgrade your local scenery as you fly.
 
 Terrasync saves the data to your HD so next time you fly a route, you
 already have the data and you don't need to download it again.
 
 Terrasync makes you look and feel like you have it all, even though
 you don't. :-)
 
 Is it likely to work over a 56K modem?

David,

First of all I will say that that I haven't tried it.  But, I
encourage you to try it yourself since I want to know the answer
too. :-)

I suggest that you start out in the C172 and fly with that.  If you
have good luck there, then you can try faster planes.

I'm fortunate enough to have a DSL connection at home (they finally
got service to my area) and with the latest tweaks to terrasync I've
been able to sustain upwares of 2000 kts. with 32km visibility.
(That's in the a4, time accelerated either 2x or 3x ...)

So, if you are flying at 1/10 the speed, you might do just fine with
1/10 the bandwidth.

Let us know ... :-)

Regards,
-- 
Curtis Olson   IVLab / HumanFIRST Program   FlightGear Project
Twin Cities[EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Minnesota  http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt   http://www.flightgear.org

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrasync 3rd party util

Jim Wilson writes:
 Curtis L. Olson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
 
  Terrasync makes you look and feel like you have it all, even though
  you don't. :-)
 
 One question: Does it still come with the Ginzu knife?

I'll tell you what, we could set this up as a commercial service and
charge $0.01 per downloaded tile (that's a steal compared to $0.99 a
ring tone) and then, yes, I would happily include a ginzu knife with
the deal. :-)

But for now, I'll try to keep everything free. :-)

Curt.
-- 
Curtis Olson   IVLab / HumanFIRST Program   FlightGear Project
Twin Cities[EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrasync 3rd party util

2002-11-25 Thread The Tone'ster


--- Curtis L. Olson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

[ ... a bunch of cool TerraSync stuff ...]

Do I have to be building/using the CVS cut of FG to take advantage of TerraSync
?

TIA,
Tony

=


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrasync 3rd party util

2002-11-25 Thread Norman Vine

David Luff writes:

 On 11/25/02 at 9:06 AM Curtis L. Olson wrote:
 
 Terrasync makes you look and feel like you have it all, even though
 you don't. :-)
 
 Is it likely to work over a 56K modem?

Does for me :-)

Now all we need is a 'virtual rsync' that uses the fastest mirror :-)

Norman

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RE: [Flightgear-devel] Terrasync 3rd party util

Michael Basler writes:
 Curt,
 
  ADV: don't bother spending days or weeks downloading all the scenery
  for the world before you fly.  Just install the base program and
 
 I think this is a VERY useful tool and a breakthrough insofar, as no other
 sim known to me does have this feature. I just didn't find time to play with
 it, but will do as soon as I can.
 
 There might be a point that it's hidden somewhere in Terragear (I know it
 can be build standalone, but still) plus has to be invoked via special
 options.
 
 Would it be hard to stick it into the FlightGear CVS and make it a start
 option like fgfs --with-terrasync? I am convinced this might buy you
 hundreds of users immediately.

This is a standalone util that runs separate of FlightGear, but yes,
it might make more sense to bundle it in FlightGear.  Gear is plural,
right?

Curt.
-- 
Curtis Olson   IVLab / HumanFIRST Program   FlightGear Project
Twin Cities[EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Minnesota  http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt   http://www.flightgear.org

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrasync 3rd party util

The Tone'ster writes:
 
 --- Curtis L. Olson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 [ ... a bunch of cool TerraSync stuff ...]
 
 Do I have to be building/using the CVS cut of FG to take advantage
 of TerraSync 
 ?

Yes, but not so much for the sake of terrasync, but because the
scenery you will be fetching assumes certain software features that
are only in cvs (i.e. airport/runway lighting.)

Regards,

Curt.
-- 
Curtis Olson   IVLab / HumanFIRST Program   FlightGear Project
Twin Cities[EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Minnesota  http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt   http://www.flightgear.org

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrasync 3rd party util

2002-11-25 Thread Martin Spott

 ADV: don't bother spending days or weeks downloading all the scenery
 for the world before you fly.  Just install the base program and
 supporting files.  Turn on terrasync and it will fetch just the tiles
 you need as you fly.  

There's still one question remaining: Does it work with a proxy (Squid) or
do you need direct connection to the internet on the machine running
FlightGear ?

Martin.
-- 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrasync 3rd party util

2002-11-25 Thread David Luff

On 11/25/02 at 5:47 PM Martin Spott wrote:

 ADV: don't bother spending days or weeks downloading all the scenery
 for the world before you fly.  Just install the base program and
 supporting files.  Turn on terrasync and it will fetch just the tiles
 you need as you fly.  

There's still one question remaining: Does it work with a proxy (Squid) or
do you need direct connection to the internet on the machine running
FlightGear ?

Its working for me at work (its after 5pm in the UK!) where we have a web
proxy, although I'm pretty sure that rsync isn't proxied.  I would assume
that if you can use rsync then you can use terrasync.

Cheers - Dave




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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrasync 3rd party util

2002-11-25 Thread David Luff

On 11/25/02 at 10:11 AM Curtis L. Olson wrote:
 
 Terrasync makes you look and feel like you have it all, even though
 you don't. :-)
 
 Is it likely to work over a 56K modem?

David,

First of all I will say that that I haven't tried it.  But, I
encourage you to try it yourself since I want to know the answer
too. :-)

I suggest that you start out in the C172 and fly with that.  If you
have good luck there, then you can try faster planes.

I'm fortunate enough to have a DSL connection at home (they finally
got service to my area) and with the latest tweaks to terrasync I've
been able to sustain upwares of 2000 kts. with 32km visibility.
(That's in the a4, time accelerated either 2x or 3x ...)

So, if you are flying at 1/10 the speed, you might do just fine with
1/10 the bandwidth.

Let us know ... :-)

OK, I'll give it a go.  I've a slight problem though in that I'm on
Linux/GeForce3 at home, and the nVidia drivers will only work if I do 
$/sbin/telinit 1
$root passwd
$make install in kernel and GLX nVidia directories
$edit XFConfig-4
$/sbin/telinit 2

Unfortunately this leaves sound unworking, and I suspect probably net
access as well.  On a normal reboot X fails to start and I have to put the
old XFConfig-4 back.

Still, if net access survives the above I'll try it out...

Cheers - Dave




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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrasync 3rd party util

Martin Spott writes:
  ADV: don't bother spending days or weeks downloading all the scenery
  for the world before you fly.  Just install the base program and
  supporting files.  Turn on terrasync and it will fetch just the tiles
  you need as you fly.  
 
 There's still one question remaining: Does it work with a proxy (Squid) or
 do you need direct connection to the internet on the machine running
 FlightGear ?

You'd have to get rsync working through a proxy ... I have no idea if
that can be done or now.  Otherwise, do you have some sort of
recursive file transfer util that can ignore files that are the same
as the server that will work through a proxy?

Regards,

Curt.
-- 
Curtis Olson   IVLab / HumanFIRST Program   FlightGear Project
Twin Cities[EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Minnesota  http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt   http://www.flightgear.org

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrasync 3rd party util

2002-11-25 Thread Martin Spott

 There's still one question remaining: Does it work with a proxy (Squid) or
 do you need direct connection to the internet on the machine running
 FlightGear ?

 You'd have to get rsync working through a proxy ... I have no idea if
 that can be done or now.

I was not shure if 'rsync' was the only way 'terrasync' connects to your
server. That's why I was asking.
Getting 'rsync' working through a firewall is pretty difficult. You could
try to build 'rsync' with 'socks' support, but even then   not every
firewall supports 'socks'. So I dare to point at the fact that this utility
might be pretty useless for several users.

 [...] Otherwise, do you have some sort of
 recursive file transfer util that can ignore files that are the same
 as the server that will work through a proxy?

foehn: 22:42:28 ~ alias wget
wget -m -np -w 1 -N


Works with any http- and ftp-server and honours the '$http_proxy' or
'$ftp_proy' variables,

Martin.
-- 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrasync 3rd party util

Martin Spott writes:
 I was not shure if 'rsync' was the only way 'terrasync' connects to your
 server. That's why I was asking.
 Getting 'rsync' working through a firewall is pretty difficult. You could
 try to build 'rsync' with 'socks' support, but even then   not every
 firewall supports 'socks'. So I dare to point at the fact that this utility
 might be pretty useless for several users.

Well, I hacked this up over the weekend so it's not advertised as the
perfect utility that handles every possible situation.  The hope is
that those for which it doesn't quite work, might be willing to figure
something out and submit fixes ...

Regards,

Curt.
-- 
Curtis Olson   IVLab / HumanFIRST Program   FlightGear Project
Twin Cities[EMAIL PROTECTED]  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Minnesota  http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt   http://www.flightgear.org

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrasync 3rd party util

2002-11-25 Thread Martin Spott

 Well, I hacked this up over the weekend so it's not advertised as the
 perfect utility that handles every possible situation.  The hope is
 that those for which it doesn't quite work, might be willing to figure
 something out and submit fixes ...

I'm absolutely no C programmer - but I'll see what I can do. I didn't want
to criticise you, my sole aim was to point at the simple facts,

Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrasync 3rd party util

2002-11-25 Thread Julian Foad

Getting 'rsync' working through a firewall is pretty difficult. You could
try to build 'rsync' with 'socks' support, but even then   not every
firewall supports 'socks'. So I dare to point at the fact that this utility
might be pretty useless for several users.


If you are _allowed_ to be playing / using Flight Gear at work, then you 
can try asking your network administrator to enable rsync protocol. 
Point out to them that it provides basically the same sort of access 
(the way they see it, in terms of security, abuse, etc.) as FTP, and if 
they allow FTP they should allow rsync as well.

If you're not allowed, but hope to get away with it via the company 
email and web facilities provided, well, maybe you need to work for a 
games company instead. :-)

[Note: I'm in this position of having FTP but not rsync at work.  But I 
can't think of a good reason why I should be allowed to run Flight Gear, 
or any other justification for requesting rsync access.]

- Julian



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrasync 3rd party util

2002-11-25 Thread Julian Foad

Lovely stuff!

terrasync.cxx needs these to compile on my GCC 3.2 / SuSE system:

  SG_USING_STD(cout);
  SG_USING_STD(endl);

In the usage example in README.txt it would be nice to suggest a port in 
the private use range (49152-65535), such as 55000, instead of port 
5500 which is allocated to someone's particular protocol.  Not that it's 
likely to cause a problem in practice, but to avoid future trouble.  The 
same applies to the existing FG and Atlas documentation.

- Julian


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RE: [Flightgear-devel] Terrasync 3rd party util

2002-11-25 Thread Michael Basler

Curt,

it works with Cygwin, and it is a really cool innonvative feature.

A couple of nits only:

- I still would suggest transferring this into FlightGear. I first had to
download and install gpc (do most Terragear users recall they did once?),
which might be annoying for beginners. Terrasync certainly does not make use
of it ;-)

- A more serious problem: Terrasync relies on external rsync + mkdir. At
present, I start FlightGear from the usual Windows batch (with proper
parameters of course), while I start Terrasync from within a Cygwin bash
thus having both in the (Cygwin) path.

However: We sure will ship this with the next official version of all
supported platforms, won't we? Thus we'll need a way to get this working
standalone under Windows. I may stay corrected, but standard windows comes
without both tools. Maybe one of the Windows gurus will suggest a solution
to this.

Otherwise, I am still perplexed how fluently this works! BTW, I am sitting
behind an ISDN line (well, 2xISDN, to be honest).

Finally: Please keep this a top secrect. Otherwise, I already foresee MS's
variant for FS2004:

Please register with PASSPORT before using our scenery.

Regards, Michael

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrasync 3rd party util

2002-11-25 Thread David Megginson

Julian Foad writes:

  [Note: I'm in this position of having FTP but not rsync at work.  But I 
  can't think of a good reason why I should be allowed to run Flight Gear, 
  or any other justification for requesting rsync access.]

What we need is a way to make rsync masquerade as HTTP -- that's how
everything else gets through the firewall these days.  A simple SOAP
server should do it.


All the best,


David

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrasync 3rd party util

2002-11-25 Thread Tony Peden

On Mon, 2002-11-25 at 09:55, David Luff wrote:
 On 11/25/02 at 10:11 AM Curtis L. Olson wrote:
  
  Terrasync makes you look and feel like you have it all, even though
  you don't. :-)
  
  Is it likely to work over a 56K modem?
 
 David,
 
 First of all I will say that that I haven't tried it.  But, I
 encourage you to try it yourself since I want to know the answer
 too. :-)
 
 I suggest that you start out in the C172 and fly with that.  If you
 have good luck there, then you can try faster planes.
 
 I'm fortunate enough to have a DSL connection at home (they finally
 got service to my area) and with the latest tweaks to terrasync I've
 been able to sustain upwares of 2000 kts. with 32km visibility.
 (That's in the a4, time accelerated either 2x or 3x ...)
 
 So, if you are flying at 1/10 the speed, you might do just fine with
 1/10 the bandwidth.
 
 Let us know ... :-)
 
 OK, I'll give it a go.  I've a slight problem though in that I'm on
 Linux/GeForce3 at home, and the nVidia drivers will only work if I do 
 $/sbin/telinit 1
 $root passwd
 $make install in kernel and GLX nVidia directories
 $edit XFConfig-4
 $/sbin/telinit 2

Odd, the X-server usually runs setuid root (it runs as root no matter
who starts it) so permissions shouldn't be an issue.

 
 Unfortunately this leaves sound unworking, and I suspect probably net
 access as well.  On a normal reboot X fails to start and I have to put the
 old XFConfig-4 back.
 
 Still, if net access survives the above I'll try it out...
 
 Cheers - Dave
 
 
 
 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Terrasync 3rd party util