Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
I agree tom. In the early days I had a lot of stuff I did not buy. Most of that has been replaced with free or low cost stuff. I hardly buy anything, games etc I may buy once a year if that because of the price. One of my pet peevs are that prices for some things have been a bit high. The apple system solves that. The big issue is getting in. To get in at least in new zealand, its 4-6000 for a mac at least in one of the computer places I checked out, granted its fully loaded but who has that much unless you do. its at least 1000 or more for an iphone or something. Now if you can afford the initial headake every so often to keep your devices supported, software including the os really is quite small. 1-10 dollars in general for apps some are more. 30 or so dollars for a mac system os upgrade on a computer and nothing for the phones. On the other end of the scale, pcs can be got for as little as 400 straight up, ofcause its about 700-1000 for a good or reasonable laptop, and true you don't get all the power of a mac, but still its cheaper. Prices for pc apps can get up there though. At 08:17 PM 2/16/2014, you wrote: Hi Valiant, Well, I certainly do think the fact that the Draconis titles are being released for a new market does have some effect on sales. After all, it is easier to make a lot of money when there aren't several other companies to compete with in the same target market. However, I don't believe that is the one and only factor why Draconis's sales are so high on Mac. Another very prominent reason is basic security. As Josh and others have stated time and time again the Apple Store is a very good way to secure a developer's work from being pirated/stolen. That is more people on Mac is likely to be an honest customer than on Windows. Windows software on the other hand has a much more likely risk of being pirated, cracked, and stolen obviously bringing sales down. Last but not least, I think the cost has a lot to do with it. Ever since releasing Change Reaction 2 and Silver Dollar Draconis has been bringing the price of their games down to something like $9.99. Lower costs generally means more sales from honest customers who can afford the software. Even I have plans to buy both as soon as finances will allow. However, my point is that if a company sets a price that most people can and will pay then sales will usually go up. Cheers! On 2/15/14, valiant8086 valiant8...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. Have you taken into account the possibility that your numbers are as they are because your windows releases are on a platform that's been getting games, while not as many as we'd all like, for a long time, and your releases on mac are dropping into a big gaping black hole of people who have been clamoring for games for all this time? Of course we see the gravitation toward thinking of iOS as a good gaming platform also as you've said if I'm not mistaken affects all this, but that's not really in line with my thoughts right now. By that I don't mean I disagree with that too I'm just thinking about windows sales vs.mac exclusively here. Thinking about myself, I wanted to buy your mac games for my 2010 mac book air, which I don't use for much more than trying to stay familiar with mac so I know in my own mind how they compare and can try to help friends out with mac questions on occasion. I heard about your mac releases and I wanted to go buy them just to say thank you for giving us something to play besides RSGames on mac OS. I haven't done this yet, but I haven't bought any games in quite a while except a couple of 1 dollar games on iOS. but my thinking is, you have people excited to be able to play on mac, and curious how well you guys made it work. Could that have inflated your sales a bit? Granted, it doesn't really change the point, the fact would still be that you're selling more games on MAC and the people you're selling to on that platform are more involved, I think that's what you mean about the demographics anyway. Just something I wondered about. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Shaun, Well, I won't deny the initial upfront costs for Mac's are rather expensive no matter where you live, but in the long run a user does save money on software upgrades. VoiceOver comes with the OS meaning there are no $1,000 more upfront fees for a screen reader, no expensive SMAs to pay, and Mac OS upgrades are rather affordable provided you have the hardware. There are a lot of free and open source apps that have been ported to Mac OS which means in terms of apps Mac can be a rather affordable solution from a software angle. Of course, right now there is not a great deal of accessible games for Mac, but that is more due to a lack of developers than decent technologies. I know that OpenAL, from experience, is every bit as good as DirectSound and XAudio2, and is available on Mac. As a result high quality FPS games could be developed with state-of-the-art 5.1 surround sound. SFML is an awesome game programming API, and SDL is reasonable as well for basic game development. There is the Java game APIs such as Jinput, Joal, Jogl, etc which means that there are plenty of Java APIs for developing games on Mac. Point being, the technologies for Mac are out there all we need is more developers like Draconis to develop games for Mac. One thing I do agree with is Draconis's marketing strategy regarding Mac OS. They could have probably really soaked the blind Mac community with games that cost $20 or more, but didn't. On the contrary they brought the cost of their games like Silver Dollar and Change Reaction down to under $10 which means more people would be willing to buy them, and as a result they have flooded the blind Mac user community with low cost and affordable games. Simple games to be sure, but they are high quality and affordable on anyone's budget. Moreover they have put the time and effort into developing a game engine which should make developing future titles for Mac a breeze. They will help keep the costs down while making turn around times for development of new and old titles fairly quick. So I expect to see great things from Josh and others on the Mac front in the not too distant future. I think that one thing that will help Mac in terms of games is future compatibility. ?What I mean by that is a lot of games for Windows are for various reasons nearing the end of life in terms of technical support because the languages and APIs they use are seriously out of date. Most of the Draconis titles, for example, are inherited from James North who wrote them in VB 6, using DirectX 8, for an entirely different era of computers running Win 95, 98, and XP. Now that Josh is rewriting them from scratch in C++ they will be more compatible with Mac OS without any of the issues of compatibility plaguing their VB 6 titles for Windows. The same will hold true for any other developer who chooses to follow their example and start over with a clean slate so to speak. It may take some time for us to see the number of games for Mac currently available for Windows, but in the end they will likely be more stable and more compatible than those we see on the Windows side of the equation. Cheers! On 2/16/14, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: I agree tom. In the early days I had a lot of stuff I did not buy. Most of that has been replaced with free or low cost stuff. I hardly buy anything, games etc I may buy once a year if that because of the price. One of my pet peevs are that prices for some things have been a bit high. The apple system solves that. The big issue is getting in. To get in at least in new zealand, its 4-6000 for a mac at least in one of the computer places I checked out, granted its fully loaded but who has that much unless you do. its at least 1000 or more for an iphone or something. Now if you can afford the initial headake every so often to keep your devices supported, software including the os really is quite small. 1-10 dollars in general for apps some are more. 30 or so dollars for a mac system os upgrade on a computer and nothing for the phones. On the other end of the scale, pcs can be got for as little as 400 straight up, ofcause its about 700-1000 for a good or reasonable laptop, and true you don't get all the power of a mac, but still its cheaper. Prices for pc apps can get up there though. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Shaun, Yes and no. Accessibility on Windows 8.1 varies from screen reader to screen reader and I am not all that happy with the way Jaws in particular handles certain things. I am more happy with the accessibility of Windows 8.1 with NVDA 2013.3 and Window-Eyes 8.4. I'm mainly just pointing this out that a lot of users may complain about access issues such as Valiant pointing out that some dialog boxes don't read correctly, but many of those issues are specific to screen reader and screen reader version. Switching to an alternative screen reader usually renders different results in the same situation. So access varies depending on what you are using. Cheers! On 2/16/14, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: hmmm sounds like a lot of work. good I have 7, there is probably an easier tway to handle it. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi. Have you taken into account the possibility that your numbers are as they are because your windows releases are on a platform that's been getting games, while not as many as we'd all like, for a long time, and your releases on mac are dropping into a big gaping black hole of people who have been clamoring for games for all this time? Of course we see the gravitation toward thinking of iOS as a good gaming platform also as you've said if I'm not mistaken affects all this, but that's not really in line with my thoughts right now. By that I don't mean I disagree with that too I'm just thinking about windows sales vs.mac exclusively here. Thinking about myself, I wanted to buy your mac games for my 2010 mac book air, which I don't use for much more than trying to stay familiar with mac so I know in my own mind how they compare and can try to help friends out with mac questions on occasion. I heard about your mac releases and I wanted to go buy them just to say thank you for giving us something to play besides RSGames on mac OS. I haven't done this yet, but I haven't bought any games in quite a while except a couple of 1 dollar games on iOS. but my thinking is, you have people excited to be able to play on mac, and curious how well you guys made it work. Could that have inflated your sales a bit? Granted, it doesn't really change the point, the fact would still be that you're selling more games on MAC and the people you're selling to on that platform are more involved, I think that's what you mean about the demographics anyway. Just something I wondered about. Cheers, Sent with thunderbird 17.0.8 portable On 12/13/2013 11:05 AM, Draconis wrote: Chiming in on these cross-platform topics seems to be a common theme for me. LOL I have three points I’d like to make. First, ignoring Mac as a viable platform for blind gamers is a poor strategy. One year on, and Mac sales are still far exceeding Windows sales, even in comparison to back in the hay day of audio games, some 10 years ago or so. It isn’t just about raw user numbers, it is about demographics and the quality of those users. Which leads me to my second point. There is an old saying: “Lies, damn lies, and statistics.” This could not apply to anything as well as it does to the statement that Android is more popular than iOS overall. It is technically true that Android is used in more devices, but that is because many of those devices are not, strictly speaking, Android devices. That is to say, they are not being used as portable computing devices like iOS devices are. Kindles, Nooks, many models of feature phones, and countless other gadgets, all get lumped into the Android user numbers, even though many of those devices are so limited in scope that users don’t even know Android was used in their development. This is why, in the areas that matters, iOS’s numbers are so much better than Android’s, despite the marketshare numbers that the media likes to quote. iOS consistently has over 80% of web usage from mobile devices, for example. iOS users are for more likely to pay for apps, too. iOS users also spend more time on their devices, showing greater engagement with the platform. And those kinds of numbers go on and on. It is the same kind of trick as companies like Samsung use that create headlines in the news like: “Samsung sells 10 million Galaxy blah blah”. In reality, they shipped that number to resellers and warehouses. Shipped, but not necessarily sold to end users. Samsung never actually releases specific sales numbers. They only ever announce numbers of units shipped. It sounds better that way. Apple, conversely, only ever announces sales to end users, and never the number of units shipped. All of this, before you even start taking into account the fragmentation of Android, which is a disaster that Google is continuing to scramble to get a hold on with nothing to show for it. Less than 2% of Android devices are running the latest version of the OS, compared with over 70% of iOS devices. Android is a support nightmare for developers, much as Windows is. Granted, that 2% number may be slightly skewed, given Google’s continued desire to artificially inflate the usage numbers of Android, but it is still a huge problem for the platform. My final point is a technical one. We explored a number of options for developing the Draconis Engine, including experimenting with various languages, techniques, and technologies. We have now shipped multiple titles on three platforms in the space of eleven months. Three Mac releases, three Windows releases, and one iOS release. (This assumes you count the Show Cases for Mac/Windows.) The Draconis Engine was created with C++ primarily, with very tiny portions written in Objective-C to cover OS X and iOS GUI, and small portions in C# for Windows. While C++, like any language, has advantages and disadvantages, if you are interested in
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
I really like windows7 personally. I had linux for a month or two and went back to windows for the games and all the voices it offers and screen reader choices, too. using windows7 laptop On 2/15/2014 7:03 PM, valiant8086 wrote: Hi. Have you taken into account the possibility that your numbers are as they are because your windows releases are on a platform that's been getting games, while not as many as we'd all like, for a long time, and your releases on mac are dropping into a big gaping black hole of people who have been clamoring for games for all this time? Of course we see the gravitation toward thinking of iOS as a good gaming platform also as you've said if I'm not mistaken affects all this, but that's not really in line with my thoughts right now. By that I don't mean I disagree with that too I'm just thinking about windows sales vs.mac exclusively here. Thinking about myself, I wanted to buy your mac games for my 2010 mac book air, which I don't use for much more than trying to stay familiar with mac so I know in my own mind how they compare and can try to help friends out with mac questions on occasion. I heard about your mac releases and I wanted to go buy them just to say thank you for giving us something to play besides RSGames on mac OS. I haven't done this yet, but I haven't bought any games in quite a while except a couple of 1 dollar games on iOS. but my thinking is, you have people excited to be able to play on mac, and curious how well you guys made it work. Could that have inflated your sales a bit? Granted, it doesn't really change the point, the fact would still be that you're selling more games on MAC and the people you're selling to on that platform are more involved, I think that's what you mean about the demographics anyway. Just something I wondered about. Cheers, Sent with thunderbird 17.0.8 portable On 12/13/2013 11:05 AM, Draconis wrote: Chiming in on these cross-platform topics seems to be a common theme for me. LOL I have three points I’d like to make. First, ignoring Mac as a viable platform for blind gamers is a poor strategy. One year on, and Mac sales are still far exceeding Windows sales, even in comparison to back in the hay day of audio games, some 10 years ago or so. It isn’t just about raw user numbers, it is about demographics and the quality of those users. Which leads me to my second point. There is an old saying: “Lies, damn lies, and statistics.” This could not apply to anything as well as it does to the statement that Android is more popular than iOS overall. It is technically true that Android is used in more devices, but that is because many of those devices are not, strictly speaking, Android devices. That is to say, they are not being used as portable computing devices like iOS devices are. Kindles, Nooks, many models of feature phones, and countless other gadgets, all get lumped into the Android user numbers, even though many of those devices are so limited in scope that users don’t even know Android was used in their development. This is why, in the areas that matters, iOS’s numbers are so much better than Android’s, despite the marketshare numbers that the media likes to quote. iOS consistently has over 80% of web usage from mobile devices, for example. iOS users are for more likely to pay for apps, too. iOS users also spend more time on their devices, showing greater engagement with the platform. And those kinds of numbers go on and on. It is the same kind of trick as companies like Samsung use that create headlines in the news like: “Samsung sells 10 million Galaxy blah blah”. In reality, they shipped that number to resellers and warehouses. Shipped, but not necessarily sold to end users. Samsung never actually releases specific sales numbers. They only ever announce numbers of units shipped. It sounds better that way. Apple, conversely, only ever announces sales to end users, and never the number of units shipped. All of this, before you even start taking into account the fragmentation of Android, which is a disaster that Google is continuing to scramble to get a hold on with nothing to show for it. Less than 2% of Android devices are running the latest version of the OS, compared with over 70% of iOS devices. Android is a support nightmare for developers, much as Windows is. Granted, that 2% number may be slightly skewed, given Google’s continued desire to artificially inflate the usage numbers of Android, but it is still a huge problem for the platform. My final point is a technical one. We explored a number of options for developing the Draconis Engine, including experimenting with various languages, techniques, and technologies. We have now shipped multiple titles on three platforms in the space of eleven months. Three Mac releases, three Windows releases, and one iOS release. (This assumes you count the Show Cases for Mac/Windows.) The Draconis Engine
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi. I'm doing ok with windows 8.1. I don't bother with the start screen much, I just use the desktop, the start screen search box and pretty much everything else. I don't run any metro apps hardly, when I do I have to mess around with my screen settings since I like to keep my computer outputting to a projector that isn't there to save energy. Result being that the apps won't run until I fix my resolution, so I have to switch back to my touch screen output. At first you think it's less accessible because, if you're using JAWS anyway, you'll notice things that the JAWS cursor won't read on 8.1 that it reads just fine on the same window in windows 7. third party applications like live drive desktop is what I'm talking about, not built in windows 8.1 applications that would be designed different possibly. Take the same version of live drive desktop and read the status window using the JAWS cursor on windows 7, now take same version of exact same app and install that on 8.1 and try to read the status window with JAWS cursor again, same version of jaws of course. You'll just be able to read the title of the status window and nothing else. You think ug this sucks why did they break it! But if you switch to the touch cursor in JAWS you can read it just fine, and if you touch the screen if you have a touch screen it works fine that way too. I encounter this in quite a few places, but the touch cursor always works well enough, sometimes it's nicer than doing it with the JAWS cursor. One of my friends was talking to me, saying he was not liking something about 8.1, when you copy files into some place that already has existing files there, the dialogue asking if you want to overwrite etc isn't accessible. Won't read with the jaws cursor and you can't tab through the options. They were going to downgrade from 8.1 to windows 7 on a brand new computer. I got on my netbook at the time my only 8.1 computer, I installed a demo of 8.1 using Winstaller on that old netbook so I'd be learning about it. Anyway, I booted up my old netbook into my demo windows 8.1 and tried that, and discovered that you can't read it with the jaws cursor. You can, however, read them with the touch cursor and, even better, you can leave it on pc cursor and just arrow between the choices, tab doesn't work, but arrow keys do just fine and the wording of the choices is really an improvement. So you see things like that happen a lot. People just need a couple of big problems and that ruins it for them. But the way around this is to approach this in the kind of manner of, this is ok in windows 7, how about I just assume they didn't completely break this and try for a while to really find a solution. I'll just do anything I can think of. There's got to be a way to make this work. And that has helped me find solutions for me and my friends quite a few times, especially now that my primary laptop is a Lenovo Yoga 2 pro that came with windows 8.1. Folks complain about the start screen. Not me, I didn't use the start menu in 7 unless I had to anyway. That search box is great, only downside to how that is in 8.1 over 7 is it searches for a lot more stuff by default and it's slower at coming up with search results. I solved that problem by installing classic shell and just selecting to use classic start menu, not classic explorer and classic IE I like how those work in 8.1, don't need any modifications there. Then I noticed that classic start menu's search box is sort of lousy it doesn't come up with the same search results you'd expect from the 7 start menu, so if it fails on me I just hit windows+q and type into that search box what I want and that usually works fine. That reminds me of another thing. Another friend was really disappointed that he couldn't adjust his detail view settings in 8.1's file browser (8.1's name for windows explorer). It took a while, but I figured out that in the ribbon if you hit alt v to get to the view tab, then use your tab key to find the views button dropdown grid, don't ask me what that actually means, and hit said button, it exposes other options that you can now tab through like add columns and such that gives you the same abilities you expect in the view menu of explorer on windows 7. Same goes for folder options, we knew we could go to folder options in control panel, but in 8.1 you can't seem to find folder options in the file manager, something you need to do if you want to modify folder options, namely going in there to hit apply to all folders of this type for making sure all music folders display the way the one you're currently in is set to display for instance. Instead of just complaining about it not being there, I went on a hunt for it, and finally managed to find it, took a while but I got it. It's in the views tab of the ribbon, it says something about options, gives a description for what the whole group is for, then it says
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Valiant, Well, I certainly do think the fact that the Draconis titles are being released for a new market does have some effect on sales. After all, it is easier to make a lot of money when there aren't several other companies to compete with in the same target market. However, I don't believe that is the one and only factor why Draconis's sales are so high on Mac. Another very prominent reason is basic security. As Josh and others have stated time and time again the Apple Store is a very good way to secure a developer's work from being pirated/stolen. That is more people on Mac is likely to be an honest customer than on Windows. Windows software on the other hand has a much more likely risk of being pirated, cracked, and stolen obviously bringing sales down. Last but not least, I think the cost has a lot to do with it. Ever since releasing Change Reaction 2 and Silver Dollar Draconis has been bringing the price of their games down to something like $9.99. Lower costs generally means more sales from honest customers who can afford the software. Even I have plans to buy both as soon as finances will allow. However, my point is that if a company sets a price that most people can and will pay then sales will usually go up. Cheers! On 2/15/14, valiant8086 valiant8...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. Have you taken into account the possibility that your numbers are as they are because your windows releases are on a platform that's been getting games, while not as many as we'd all like, for a long time, and your releases on mac are dropping into a big gaping black hole of people who have been clamoring for games for all this time? Of course we see the gravitation toward thinking of iOS as a good gaming platform also as you've said if I'm not mistaken affects all this, but that's not really in line with my thoughts right now. By that I don't mean I disagree with that too I'm just thinking about windows sales vs.mac exclusively here. Thinking about myself, I wanted to buy your mac games for my 2010 mac book air, which I don't use for much more than trying to stay familiar with mac so I know in my own mind how they compare and can try to help friends out with mac questions on occasion. I heard about your mac releases and I wanted to go buy them just to say thank you for giving us something to play besides RSGames on mac OS. I haven't done this yet, but I haven't bought any games in quite a while except a couple of 1 dollar games on iOS. but my thinking is, you have people excited to be able to play on mac, and curious how well you guys made it work. Could that have inflated your sales a bit? Granted, it doesn't really change the point, the fact would still be that you're selling more games on MAC and the people you're selling to on that platform are more involved, I think that's what you mean about the demographics anyway. Just something I wondered about. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
hmmm sounds like a lot of work. good I have 7, there is probably an easier tway to handle it. At 02:19 PM 2/16/2014, you wrote: Hi. I'm doing ok with windows 8.1. I don't bother with the start screen much, I just use the desktop, the start screen search box and pretty much everything else. I don't run any metro apps hardly, when I do I have to mess around with my screen settings since I like to keep my computer outputting to a projector that isn't there to save energy. Result being that the apps won't run until I fix my resolution, so I have to switch back to my touch screen output. At first you think it's less accessible because, if you're using JAWS anyway, you'll notice things that the JAWS cursor won't read on 8.1 that it reads just fine on the same window in windows 7. third party applications like live drive desktop is what I'm talking about, not built in windows 8.1 applications that would be designed different possibly. Take the same version of live drive desktop and read the status window using the JAWS cursor on windows 7, now take same version of exact same app and install that on 8.1 and try to read the status window with JAWS cursor again, same version of jaws of course. You'll just be able to read the title of the status window and nothing else. You think ug this sucks why did they break it! But if you switch to the touch cursor in JAWS you can read it just fine, and if you touch the screen if you have a touch screen it works fine that way too. I encounter this in quite a few places, but the touch cursor always works well enough, sometimes it's nicer than doing it with the JAWS cursor. One of my friends was talking to me, saying he was not liking something about 8.1, when you copy files into some place that already has existing files there, the dialogue asking if you want to overwrite etc isn't accessible. Won't read with the jaws cursor and you can't tab through the options. They were going to downgrade from 8.1 to windows 7 on a brand new computer. I got on my netbook at the time my only 8.1 computer, I installed a demo of 8.1 using Winstaller on that old netbook so I'd be learning about it. Anyway, I booted up my old netbook into my demo windows 8.1 and tried that, and discovered that you can't read it with the jaws cursor. You can, however, read them with the touch cursor and, even better, you can leave it on pc cursor and just arrow between the choices, tab doesn't work, but arrow keys do just fine and the wording of the choices is really an improvement. So you see things like that happen a lot. People just need a couple of big problems and that ruins it for them. But the way around this is to approach this in the kind of manner of, this is ok in windows 7, how about I just assume they didn't completely break this and try for a while to really find a solution. I'll just do anything I can think of. There's got to be a way to make this work. And that has helped me find solutions for me and my friends quite a few times, especially now that my primary laptop is a Lenovo Yoga 2 pro that came with windows 8.1. Folks complain about the start screen. Not me, I didn't use the start menu in 7 unless I had to anyway. That search box is great, only downside to how that is in 8.1 over 7 is it searches for a lot more stuff by default and it's slower at coming up with search results. I solved that problem by installing classic shell and just selecting to use classic start menu, not classic explorer and classic IE I like how those work in 8.1, don't need any modifications there. Then I noticed that classic start menu's search box is sort of lousy it doesn't come up with the same search results you'd expect from the 7 start menu, so if it fails on me I just hit windows+q and type into that search box what I want and that usually works fine. That reminds me of another thing. Another friend was really disappointed that he couldn't adjust his detail view settings in 8.1's file browser (8.1's name for windows explorer). It took a while, but I figured out that in the ribbon if you hit alt v to get to the view tab, then use your tab key to find the views button dropdown grid, don't ask me what that actually means, and hit said button, it exposes other options that you can now tab through like add columns and such that gives you the same abilities you expect in the view menu of explorer on windows 7. Same goes for folder options, we knew we could go to folder options in control panel, but in 8.1 you can't seem to find folder options in the file manager, something you need to do if you want to modify folder options, namely going in there to hit apply to all folders of this type for making sure all music folders display the way the one you're currently in is set to display for instance. Instead of just complaining about it not being there, I went on a hunt for it, and finally managed to find it, took a while but I got it. It's in the
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Yeah I guessed that it would be. I am going through the processes of finding out from the authors of the implimentation of the lib I am using, and the main programmer on my team, well the team I am in. Aparently the issue is always there, but there are probably ways to get round that. At 09:37 AM 12/18/2013, you wrote: Hi Shaun, If using OpenAL the sounds have to be in mono not stereo. As far as the issues with echo etc sounds like an issue with FSL. As Cara pointed out OpenAL itself does not do that, and it could be the implementation at fault here. Cheers! On 12/16/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Well one thing I have found with fsl the open al library that the group I am in uses, is its powerfull more so than standard direct sound, however there are instances where doors beakons and other effects like lifts echo to much. If you save some sounds in mono instead of stereo or it may be the other way round the lib will not use them. It takes a bit to get used to but its powerfull. Someone on the test team had issues with things so it can be a little annoying. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
thanks for this tom. At 01:23 PM 12/17/2013, you wrote: Hi Shaun, Absolutely. There is a free implementation of the .NET Framework called Mono which comes with free Visual Basic and C# command line compilers. There is also a free IDE called Monodevelop for Mono which is a front end for Mono. There are a number of other IDEs around that can be setup to work with Mono as well. So there is no need to use Visual Studio 2010, Visual Studio 2012, etc if you want a cross-platform .NET IDE and compilers. Cheers! On 12/15/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: well after all that the programmer realised that he was not setting something right. The major turn off for dotnet at least for 2010 up is the ide, some have genuine trouble with it. I am not sure how to solve this. Is there something else rather than the microsoft bog standard ides. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Shaun, If using OpenAL the sounds have to be in mono not stereo. As far as the issues with echo etc sounds like an issue with FSL. As Cara pointed out OpenAL itself does not do that, and it could be the implementation at fault here. Cheers! On 12/16/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Well one thing I have found with fsl the open al library that the group I am in uses, is its powerfull more so than standard direct sound, however there are instances where doors beakons and other effects like lifts echo to much. If you save some sounds in mono instead of stereo or it may be the other way round the lib will not use them. It takes a bit to get used to but its powerfull. Someone on the test team had issues with things so it can be a little annoying. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Well one thing I have found with fsl the open al library that the group I am in uses, is its powerfull more so than standard direct sound, however there are instances where doors beakons and other effects like lifts echo to much. If you save some sounds in mono instead of stereo or it may be the other way round the lib will not use them. It takes a bit to get used to but its powerfull. Someone on the test team had issues with things so it can be a little annoying. At 01:18 PM 12/17/2013, you wrote: Hi Shaun, Yes, OpenAL is an awesome audio library. As I mentioned in a previous post to the list I am strongly looking into adopting it as part of the Evolution Engine once I have time to put the work into it. From a 3d point of view Directsound etc can not hold a candle to it. I don't have any personal experience with Free SL ore Pure Basic, but sounds interesting. Cheers! On 12/15/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: well tom the team I work with use free sl with purebasic and it uses open al. Compaired to direct sound it just blows things away. Complete 3d environmentals for effects and such. It does mean fully using non 3d devices for 3d things. However as is found with sfml, the panning does not work the same as direct sound. the sound gets louder and louder and then is in front with a good load more echo than it really should have at times. Now, don't get me wrong what I have seen really makes me happy to design stuff in it or at least the sounds. arian who is on the audiogames forum is theguy that made it. I think he is the same guy that was in light tech or it could be another. I'd prefur the panns as they were but still. One thing we found is that the sounds need to be overloud in volume before they will work well. However once done they work anywhere. Also a lot of sounds will have a stationary position where they are at their loudest and will echo round the place to. Sounds must be in stereo for conversion to the new lib effects else they just won't work in the library. Still for a free lib I am not complaining. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Ian, Pardon the long time it has taken me to reply to your question. With the 3d audio in DirectSound, there were two reasons why I didn't implement it in BGT. Firstly because I heard that it doesn't work well at all on Vista and above, and secondly because I didn't think it sounded good even on xP. I was mostly interested in testing the simulation in stereo headphone mode as I figured that that is what most of my users would have, and the sound was not particularly impressive. This is subjective of course, but since then I have heard several hrtf simulations that blew my mind. So if I ever add 3d audio to BGT it has to be a real hrtf model, not DirectSound 3d. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Support supp...@blindaudiogames.com To: phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Hi Phillip, It was very educational to hear the problems you hit with XAudio2. Could you expound on the issues you had with DirectSound 3D as well? Thanks! Ian Reed --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Phil, Sorry about the late reply. I did consider such a possibility, but I don't think it will be a viable solution. For one thing, when you enumerate audio devices you could potentially get two entirely different lists, and it is not certain that BGT can automatically open the same device for both subsystems. Even if it does, some devices do not handle that particularly well (e.g. cheap internal cards don't like it when you open two entirely different audio subsystems that both fight for control of the device). On top of that, the API for the end user would be a bit of a mess. You would constantly have to decide which subsystem to output to, provided that both of them initialized properly which is far from guaranteed. For this reason, if I do ever switch sound systems in BGT it has to be a complete change rather than a crossover so to speak. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Phil Vlasak phi...@bex.net To: phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 3:04 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Hi Philip, Would you consider having two ways to play sounds in BGT? I could see the possibility of using XAudio2 on moving creatures and some other system for everything else. Phil - Original Message - From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 8:44 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Hi Davy, Initially when I started writing BGT, I figured that it would be best to begin with simple stereo and then go from there. But then I found out that DirectSound 3d is rather broken, and decided to go for XAudio2 instead. You know the rest of that story. So for this reason, BGT will not have 3d audio as long as it uses DirectSound and it doesn't seem viable to switch to XAudio2 at this point considering the issues I encountered. If I do switch to another sound system, I am not opposed to adding 3d audio as an option if people want to use it. Personally I prefer stereo, but of course this depends entirely on the types of games you want to make and other personal preferences. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
well tom the team I work with use free sl with purebasic and it uses open al. Compaired to direct sound it just blows things away. Complete 3d environmentals for effects and such. It does mean fully using non 3d devices for 3d things. However as is found with sfml, the panning does not work the same as direct sound. the sound gets louder and louder and then is in front with a good load more echo than it really should have at times. Now, don't get me wrong what I have seen really makes me happy to design stuff in it or at least the sounds. arian who is on the audiogames forum is theguy that made it. I think he is the same guy that was in light tech or it could be another. I'd prefur the panns as they were but still. One thing we found is that the sounds need to be overloud in volume before they will work well. However once done they work anywhere. Also a lot of sounds will have a stationary position where they are at their loudest and will echo round the place to. Sounds must be in stereo for conversion to the new lib effects else they just won't work in the library. Still for a free lib I am not complaining. At 01:18 AM 12/15/2013, you wrote: Hi Davy, Well, the problem with XAudio2 is that a number of developers have reported it is buggy. Philip was working on a version of BGT that uses XAudio2, and found out it caused some instabilities in BGT and removed XAudio2 support for the time being. So that is why BGT does not presently support XAudio2. However, I agree for a multi-platform game there is no better option than OpenAL. You can use Joal for Java or write your own custom wrapper for the library for a decent cross-platform audio library that works on Mac, Linux, and Windows. Truth be told I am looking at using OpenAL as a replacement for DirectSound on Windows anyway just because the 3d audio is broken big time on DirectSound in Windows 7, Windows 8, and Windows 8.1. Clearly I need something else other than DirectSound, and XAudio2 is rather up in the air at this point. As far as license agreement stopping someone from reverse engineering code I just can not go with that option. To me that is like someone intentionally leaving their front door unlocked and than hanging a sign outside saying do not enter. A person who respects you as a developer, has some decency, obviously won't reverse your code or pirate your software. However, sad to say a lot of people will not and it never hurts to add a few extra layers of security to keep the amateur wannabe crackers out of your code. At the same time I am no fan boy of a lot of the security methods used out there to secure and license software. As you say anything can be cracked, stolen, etc by the right person so adding an insane amount of security won't work. What I feel is that there has to be a fair balance between reasonable security to keep amateur wannabe crackers out while not being intrusive to legitimate customers. As you yourself said you should stop trying to create a false sense of security as nothing you try or do is perfect. The only thing you or I can do as developers is make a game good enough that people will want to buy it to own it, offer content only available to legitimate customers, and keep the cost reasonable so you make a decent income from it but not so high that people will want to turn to pirating to get it. Cheers! On 12/13/13, Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl wrote: Hi, Yes, it definitely seems that some language coupled with OpenAL is the way to go. For a Windows-only game I'd use XAudio2 (which BGT doesn't do either), but for a multi-platform game OpenAL has a lot to offer inspite of its quirks. It makes transitioning to iOS easier as well, unless you go and use the Papa Engine for full binaural audio in your iOS games. But the Papa Engine and BGT aren't free, which I appreciate can be a bit of a problem for developers just starting out. If you pay those $100 for BGT or your Apple iOS developer account you practically have to come up with something that sells well in order to make it, as you say, financially viable. The cross-platform applications I have developed so far worked reasonably well on Mac, although I never made a serious effort to make the Mac version as streamlined as the Windows version since demand was low. This seems to be rapidly changing now. So yes, coding your own engine in Java or C++ is a lot more work than licensing BGT and using that, but I feel the benefits justify that decision (provided you have the time and resources to take on such a project). Java's lack of security certainly stings. It's understandable if you look at Java's history and intended use, but still... On the other hand, the license agreement should legally stop any legitimate user from prying. Of course enforcing a license agreement is a bit of a toughy for indie developers. But even so, if you have an awesome online back-end to your game, i.e. the bazaar in Entombed, users
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
well after all that the programmer realised that he was not setting something right. The major turn off for dotnet at least for 2010 up is the ide, some have genuine trouble with it. I am not sure how to solve this. Is there something else rather than the microsoft bog standard ides. At 01:55 AM 12/15/2013, you wrote: Shaun, It really saddens me to hear that. Using Visual Basic 6 in this day and age is really a step in the wrong direction in my opinion. Danny would have been better off going with Visual Basic .NET or C# .NET than going to Visual Basic 6. Not trying to criticize here, but developers need to think ahead of what is best for Windows 7, Windows 8, and Windows 8.1 as that is current reality, and it is not that hard to put together a great game in VB .NET using SlimDX that is x64 compatible etc. I don't really know what issues you guys encountered in BGT that would require a drastic rewrite, but it is entirely possible they could be addressed. The engine seems rather capable from what I have seen of it in action and from experimentation, and I don't know how much skill Danny has as a programmer. I would really like more information on what precisely BGT could not do that say Visual Basic 6 could do. Cheers! On 12/11/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Well davie, when danny and I were working on the deathmatch series danny found out we all did that there were limitations with bgt. Sertain things need to be written a sertain way. And the way we were expanding the deathmatch series was just really going outside of bgt's limits. deathmatch1 is not finnished to what it was going to be. There are so many issues with bgt and its limits and we came on them with saving, arrays and a lot of other things that we have exhausted the language. It was never meant for really large games at least we think so. The engine is good but there is a limit how much you can really do with it. Deathmatch1 was planned to have 10 missions or as many as we could put on. however by mission 3 danny was running out of ideas and as it was there were so many issues by this time. I can tell you we were going to have 4 missions but after all the issues danny has lost interest in that game and decided to end it as quickly as possible. Deathmatch2 started in pure basic but there are some issues to and so its visual basic 6. If you know c++ davie and can code with it then I suggest you stay with it if you can. I think danny and some others would like to learn but its a lot of work writing everything from scratch. However if you do use it on a daily basis I'd stay with that then I would stay with it. As for jawa, I do have java loaded. I've never had much fun with games based on it though. On the subject with sounds, music, etc. There is a way to do this, A lot of games that are comercial that have come lately depending on what additions you get, and how much you pay do include soundtracks as actual files as bonus content. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Philip, Thanks for your response. It's nice to understand why other developers make the choices they do so I can learn from them. Ian Reed On 12/16/2013 9:59 AM, Philip Bennefall wrote: Hi Ian, Pardon the long time it has taken me to reply to your question. With the 3d audio in DirectSound, there were two reasons why I didn't implement it in BGT. Firstly because I heard that it doesn't work well at all on Vista and above, and secondly because I didn't think it sounded good even on xP. I was mostly interested in testing the simulation in stereo headphone mode as I figured that that is what most of my users would have, and the sound was not particularly impressive. This is subjective of course, but since then I have heard several hrtf simulations that blew my mind. So if I ever add 3d audio to BGT it has to be a real hrtf model, not DirectSound 3d. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Support supp...@blindaudiogames.com To: phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Hi Phillip, It was very educational to hear the problems you hit with XAudio2. Could you expound on the issues you had with DirectSound 3D as well? Thanks! Ian Reed --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Shaun, Yes, OpenAL is an awesome audio library. As I mentioned in a previous post to the list I am strongly looking into adopting it as part of the Evolution Engine once I have time to put the work into it. From a 3d point of view Directsound etc can not hold a candle to it. I don't have any personal experience with Free SL ore Pure Basic, but sounds interesting. Cheers! On 12/15/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: well tom the team I work with use free sl with purebasic and it uses open al. Compaired to direct sound it just blows things away. Complete 3d environmentals for effects and such. It does mean fully using non 3d devices for 3d things. However as is found with sfml, the panning does not work the same as direct sound. the sound gets louder and louder and then is in front with a good load more echo than it really should have at times. Now, don't get me wrong what I have seen really makes me happy to design stuff in it or at least the sounds. arian who is on the audiogames forum is theguy that made it. I think he is the same guy that was in light tech or it could be another. I'd prefur the panns as they were but still. One thing we found is that the sounds need to be overloud in volume before they will work well. However once done they work anywhere. Also a lot of sounds will have a stationary position where they are at their loudest and will echo round the place to. Sounds must be in stereo for conversion to the new lib effects else they just won't work in the library. Still for a free lib I am not complaining. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Shaun, Absolutely. There is a free implementation of the .NET Framework called Mono which comes with free Visual Basic and C# command line compilers. There is also a free IDE called Monodevelop for Mono which is a front end for Mono. There are a number of other IDEs around that can be setup to work with Mono as well. So there is no need to use Visual Studio 2010, Visual Studio 2012, etc if you want a cross-platform .NET IDE and compilers. Cheers! On 12/15/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: well after all that the programmer realised that he was not setting something right. The major turn off for dotnet at least for 2010 up is the ide, some have genuine trouble with it. I am not sure how to solve this. Is there something else rather than the microsoft bog standard ides. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Davy, Corona, as with other cross platform SDKs can also break accessibility. Just something to be aware of. Thanks, Cara :) --- iOS design and development - LookTel.com --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Dec 14, 2013, at 4:42 AM, Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl wrote: There is always this too: http://coronalabs.com/ Of course the disadvantage is that you don't learn about the native platform in the way you would when going Objective-C. You may also not get the same low-level access (i.e. Accelerated framework, Audio Units) that you get using Objective-C. -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Cara Quinn Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 03:57 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Hi Josh, Yes, you do need a Mac. Not sure if you're offering commentary on my note but if you are, davy mentioned purchasing a Mac and then the big money for the dev account so I was wondering if there might be some confusion here. If you have any other questions on Mac / iOS development, please don't hesitate to ask. :) -Happy to answer them… Have an awesome night! Cara :) --- iOS design and development - LookTel.com --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Dec 13, 2013, at 4:37 PM, Josh joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote: you do need a mac to develop for IOS, right? using windows7 laptop On 12/13/2013 7:13 PM, Cara Quinn wrote: Hi Davy, A question and a comment; When you say big bucks for a developer account, you are aware that this is $99 per year, not per month, yes? This translates to less than $8 per month, -less than $2 per week. Not sure of your budget but just want to make sure we're all on the same page here. :) To your point about not needing XCode when using C++, you do still need XCode to build for iOS / Mac, regardless of whether you use C++ or not. Hope this helps and hope you and yours are having a most lovely holiday season! Smiles, Cara :) --- iOS design and development - LookTel.com --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Dec 13, 2013, at 8:30 AM, Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl wrote: Hi, All very interesting points you made. I tend to agree that C++ is awesome (in an IDE that isn't vendor-specific, with an opensource toolchain). I'd love to automate my build process on Linux and do nightlies for beta testers. My main reason for using Java is that I can't avoid using it in the future, on projects where I don't get to decide what language to use. I am interested in iOS development in the long run. I thought of concentrating on Windows for now, using OpenAL or XAudio2 with C++, and then combining a Mac and iOS project since both use Objective-C and OpenAL. The most prominent reason for not doing that is that I'm not comfortable buying a MacBook and spending big money on a developer account just yet, and XCode is really the way to go for Objective-C. Doing something in C++ would mostly remove the requirement for XCode, which is a good thing to me as I'd like to unify the development process as much as possible. Still, right now I'm leaning towards using Java since I already have a skeleton engine set up in that language and because it's so easy to debug code on the JVM. My only problem is with the ease of decompiling. There are solutions, most notably ahead-of-time compiling, but then you lose not only some advantages of the JVM, but also a huge heap of money. :) But then, I also remember how Thomas struggled to find the right language for MOTA and lost valuable time (I'm told there's still no final version 1 for that game?). Clearly you need to bite that bullet some day or be obscured in the fog of indecisiveness. Cheers, Davy -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Draconis Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 17:06 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Chiming in on these cross-platform topics seems to be a common theme for me. LOL I have three points I’d like to make. First, ignoring Mac as a viable platform for blind gamers is a poor strategy. One year on, and Mac sales are still far exceeding Windows sales, even in comparison to back in the hay day of audio games, some 10 years ago or so. It isn’t just about raw user numbers, it is about demographics and the quality of those users. Which leads me to my second point. There is an old saying: “Lies, damn lies, and statistics.” This could not apply to anything as well as it does to the statement that Android is more popular than iOS overall. It is technically true that Android
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Cara, good point. One reason I chose to write my own game engine was for precisely that reason. I found a lot of game engines, toolkits, etc that were cross-platform but they always seemed to be inaccessible in one way or another. I can't speak for Corona specifically, but I do know accessibility features are often lacking in such things. Cheers! On 12/14/13, Cara Quinn caraqu...@caraquinn.com wrote: Davy, Corona, as with other cross platform SDKs can also break accessibility. Just something to be aware of. Thanks, Cara :) --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi, I don't doubt it. I don't have personal experience with that toolkit, I just heard LWorks used it. The only cross-platform tools I have experience with revolve around Java, and I can say that providing an accessible GUI on Mac and Windows from one code-base isn't too hard. Now to see about audio and input! As for Corona, I thought it was an interesting concept. It's good to know about accessibility issues with such projects. I'd imagine low-latency can also be a problem since they are higher-level than native code. Davy -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Cara Quinn Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 03:29 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Davy, Corona, as with other cross platform SDKs can also break accessibility. Just something to be aware of. Thanks, Cara :) --- iOS design and development - LookTel.com --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Dec 14, 2013, at 4:42 AM, Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl wrote: There is always this too: http://coronalabs.com/ Of course the disadvantage is that you don't learn about the native platform in the way you would when going Objective-C. You may also not get the same low-level access (i.e. Accelerated framework, Audio Units) that you get using Objective-C. -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Cara Quinn Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 03:57 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Hi Josh, Yes, you do need a Mac. Not sure if you're offering commentary on my note but if you are, davy mentioned purchasing a Mac and then the big money for the dev account so I was wondering if there might be some confusion here. If you have any other questions on Mac / iOS development, please don't hesitate to ask. :) -Happy to answer them… Have an awesome night! Cara :) --- iOS design and development - LookTel.com --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Dec 13, 2013, at 4:37 PM, Josh joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote: you do need a mac to develop for IOS, right? using windows7 laptop On 12/13/2013 7:13 PM, Cara Quinn wrote: Hi Davy, A question and a comment; When you say big bucks for a developer account, you are aware that this is $99 per year, not per month, yes? This translates to less than $8 per month, -less than $2 per week. Not sure of your budget but just want to make sure we're all on the same page here. :) To your point about not needing XCode when using C++, you do still need XCode to build for iOS / Mac, regardless of whether you use C++ or not. Hope this helps and hope you and yours are having a most lovely holiday season! Smiles, Cara :) --- iOS design and development - LookTel.com --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Dec 13, 2013, at 8:30 AM, Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl wrote: Hi, All very interesting points you made. I tend to agree that C++ is awesome (in an IDE that isn't vendor-specific, with an opensource toolchain). I'd love to automate my build process on Linux and do nightlies for beta testers. My main reason for using Java is that I can't avoid using it in the future, on projects where I don't get to decide what language to use. I am interested in iOS development in the long run. I thought of concentrating on Windows for now, using OpenAL or XAudio2 with C++, and then combining a Mac and iOS project since both use Objective-C and OpenAL. The most prominent reason for not doing that is that I'm not comfortable buying a MacBook and spending big money on a developer account just yet, and XCode is really the way to go for Objective-C. Doing something in C++ would mostly remove the requirement for XCode, which is a good thing to me as I'd like to unify the development process as much as possible. Still, right now I'm leaning towards using Java since I already have a skeleton engine set up in that language and because it's so easy to debug code on the JVM. My only problem is with the ease of decompiling. There are solutions, most notably ahead-of-time compiling, but then you lose not only some advantages of the JVM, but also a huge heap of money. :) But then, I also remember how Thomas struggled to find the right language for MOTA and lost valuable time (I'm told there's still no final version 1 for that game?). Clearly you need to bite that bullet some day or be obscured in the fog of indecisiveness. Cheers, Davy -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Draconis Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 17:06 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Davy, Well, the problem with XAudio2 is that a number of developers have reported it is buggy. Philip was working on a version of BGT that uses XAudio2, and found out it caused some instabilities in BGT and removed XAudio2 support for the time being. So that is why BGT does not presently support XAudio2. However, I agree for a multi-platform game there is no better option than OpenAL. You can use Joal for Java or write your own custom wrapper for the library for a decent cross-platform audio library that works on Mac, Linux, and Windows. Truth be told I am looking at using OpenAL as a replacement for DirectSound on Windows anyway just because the 3d audio is broken big time on DirectSound in Windows 7, Windows 8, and Windows 8.1. Clearly I need something else other than DirectSound, and XAudio2 is rather up in the air at this point. As far as license agreement stopping someone from reverse engineering code I just can not go with that option. To me that is like someone intentionally leaving their front door unlocked and than hanging a sign outside saying do not enter. A person who respects you as a developer, has some decency, obviously won't reverse your code or pirate your software. However, sad to say a lot of people will not and it never hurts to add a few extra layers of security to keep the amateur wannabe crackers out of your code. At the same time I am no fan boy of a lot of the security methods used out there to secure and license software. As you say anything can be cracked, stolen, etc by the right person so adding an insane amount of security won't work. What I feel is that there has to be a fair balance between reasonable security to keep amateur wannabe crackers out while not being intrusive to legitimate customers. As you yourself said you should stop trying to create a false sense of security as nothing you try or do is perfect. The only thing you or I can do as developers is make a game good enough that people will want to buy it to own it, offer content only available to legitimate customers, and keep the cost reasonable so you make a decent income from it but not so high that people will want to turn to pirating to get it. Cheers! On 12/13/13, Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl wrote: Hi, Yes, it definitely seems that some language coupled with OpenAL is the way to go. For a Windows-only game I'd use XAudio2 (which BGT doesn't do either), but for a multi-platform game OpenAL has a lot to offer inspite of its quirks. It makes transitioning to iOS easier as well, unless you go and use the Papa Engine for full binaural audio in your iOS games. But the Papa Engine and BGT aren't free, which I appreciate can be a bit of a problem for developers just starting out. If you pay those $100 for BGT or your Apple iOS developer account you practically have to come up with something that sells well in order to make it, as you say, financially viable. The cross-platform applications I have developed so far worked reasonably well on Mac, although I never made a serious effort to make the Mac version as streamlined as the Windows version since demand was low. This seems to be rapidly changing now. So yes, coding your own engine in Java or C++ is a lot more work than licensing BGT and using that, but I feel the benefits justify that decision (provided you have the time and resources to take on such a project). Java's lack of security certainly stings. It's understandable if you look at Java's history and intended use, but still... On the other hand, the license agreement should legally stop any legitimate user from prying. Of course enforcing a license agreement is a bit of a toughy for indie developers. But even so, if you have an awesome online back-end to your game, i.e. the bazaar in Entombed, users would still have a good reason to buy the real thing. Not to mention the whole gratitude bit: I took the time to develop for a niche market, so saying thanks by pirating isn't very nice. The harsh truth is that any software can be pirated if the right people get their hands on it. I'm especially concerned about my game's audio being stolen, partly because I want my audio to be at least somewhat unique and partly because it might get me into a legal corner if some kid steals my audio and puts it up somewhere. But then again, no encryption is going to be perfect. Java is the extreme example. You can't properly hide your decryption key in code, and externalizing it makes it even easier for someone to do the decryption themselves. You could definitely store the key on a remote server and download it everytime the game is started, but then your players can't use the game while offline. You could also code your own implementation of AES and push your class files through an obfuscator. That'd probably stop most people, but it's very ugly indeed. So Java is really bad. Except that memory dumping a BGT game also spills a lot of interesting data. So
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Josh, Correct. You have to own a Mac with XCode to develop software for iOS. There isn't any way right now for a Windows or a Linux developer to design software for iOS at this time. Unless they write it, and then find a friend with a Mac to build it with XCode on their Mac. Cheers! On 12/13/13, Josh joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote: you do need a mac to develop for IOS, right? using windows7 laptop --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Philip, Thanks for that statement. That really clears up a lot of questions, and now we all know where you stand. Cheers! On 12/13/13, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote: Hi Davy and others, I wanted to stop by and briefly explain my current intentions for BGT. When I started developing it in late 2009, I had absolutely no idea how it would do financially. Now, 4 years down the line I can say that while sales have been reasonable considering the number of potential developers in the blind community, BGT is not and has never been something that I am going to get rich from. I never figured I would, either, but the truth is that it simply would not make sense for me to spend the amount of time and effort that would be involved porting it to a new platform. I am certainly not discounting Mac OS X/IOS as viable distribution channels. They are growing every day and I target them in all the mainstream projects that I am involved in at present. These other projects were written with cross platform support in mind from the get-go, while BGT was written exclusively for Windows. This means that BGT would require a major overhaul to be portable to other platforms, and I do not feel that an investment on such a scale would be viable at this point considering my current schedule. Had I decided to create an audio game engine at this time, it would certainly have been written with cross platform compatibility in mind from the start. This is not the case with BGT, however, and I cannot spend much more time and money developing it considering the sales figures it has been generating thus far. This certainly does not mean that BGT is going to be abandoned. Far from it. I still enjoy making games as a hobby from time to time, and for that, it works very well for my needs. But I will not be working on it full time as I did a year ago. So for those of you who have been hoping for a cross platform BGT release, I am sorry I can't bring more positive news. However I felt it was better to clearly announce my intentions as opposed to staying silent and leaving users to wonder and speculate. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Davy, Actually, the lack of a 1.0 release of MOTA has more to do with my personal life than indecisiveness. I have decided upon a language, game ideas, level outlines, etc long ago. The problem is my personal life has been a des aster this year, more than I am willing to get into on list, and there has been no time at all to work on the game even though I know what I want to do and how. As for Java I think it will serve you well. Especially if you look at using JInput for input, and Joal for the audio back-end. I would probably do the same myself except for the fact I now have a game engine written in C++ that does everything I need to do and is really stable. I am not going to go down the indecisive road again by looking at another language and alternative APIs. Cheers! On 12/13/13, Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl wrote: Hi, All very interesting points you made. I tend to agree that C++ is awesome (in an IDE that isn't vendor-specific, with an opensource toolchain). I'd love to automate my build process on Linux and do nightlies for beta testers. My main reason for using Java is that I can't avoid using it in the future, on projects where I don't get to decide what language to use. I am interested in iOS development in the long run. I thought of concentrating on Windows for now, using OpenAL or XAudio2 with C++, and then combining a Mac and iOS project since both use Objective-C and OpenAL. The most prominent reason for not doing that is that I'm not comfortable buying a MacBook and spending big money on a developer account just yet, and XCode is really the way to go for Objective-C. Doing something in C++ would mostly remove the requirement for XCode, which is a good thing to me as I'd like to unify the development process as much as possible. Still, right now I'm leaning towards using Java since I already have a skeleton engine set up in that language and because it's so easy to debug code on the JVM. My only problem is with the ease of decompiling. There are solutions, most notably ahead-of-time compiling, but then you lose not only some advantages of the JVM, but also a huge heap of money. :) But then, I also remember how Thomas struggled to find the right language for MOTA and lost valuable time (I'm told there's still no final version 1 for that game?). Clearly you need to bite that bullet some day or be obscured in the fog of indecisiveness. Cheers, Davy --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Shaun, It really saddens me to hear that. Using Visual Basic 6 in this day and age is really a step in the wrong direction in my opinion. Danny would have been better off going with Visual Basic .NET or C# .NET than going to Visual Basic 6. Not trying to criticize here, but developers need to think ahead of what is best for Windows 7, Windows 8, and Windows 8.1 as that is current reality, and it is not that hard to put together a great game in VB .NET using SlimDX that is x64 compatible etc. I don't really know what issues you guys encountered in BGT that would require a drastic rewrite, but it is entirely possible they could be addressed. The engine seems rather capable from what I have seen of it in action and from experimentation, and I don't know how much skill Danny has as a programmer. I would really like more information on what precisely BGT could not do that say Visual Basic 6 could do. Cheers! On 12/11/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Well davie, when danny and I were working on the deathmatch series danny found out we all did that there were limitations with bgt. Sertain things need to be written a sertain way. And the way we were expanding the deathmatch series was just really going outside of bgt's limits. deathmatch1 is not finnished to what it was going to be. There are so many issues with bgt and its limits and we came on them with saving, arrays and a lot of other things that we have exhausted the language. It was never meant for really large games at least we think so. The engine is good but there is a limit how much you can really do with it. Deathmatch1 was planned to have 10 missions or as many as we could put on. however by mission 3 danny was running out of ideas and as it was there were so many issues by this time. I can tell you we were going to have 4 missions but after all the issues danny has lost interest in that game and decided to end it as quickly as possible. Deathmatch2 started in pure basic but there are some issues to and so its visual basic 6. If you know c++ davie and can code with it then I suggest you stay with it if you can. I think danny and some others would like to learn but its a lot of work writing everything from scratch. However if you do use it on a daily basis I'd stay with that then I would stay with it. As for jawa, I do have java loaded. I've never had much fun with games based on it though. On the subject with sounds, music, etc. There is a way to do this, A lot of games that are comercial that have come lately depending on what additions you get, and how much you pay do include soundtracks as actual files as bonus content. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Thomas, I have had no trouble with XAudio2. That coupled with very low-level input handling using the Win32 API made for some awesome times. Still, the disadvantage to such low-level work (I count XAudio2 as relatively low-level too), is that it takes more work to get things done - including more evaluation of your code to make sure it won't crash at run-time. And the difference inr esponsiveness isn't too big anyway. We're talking milliseconds here. The one thing I did like about those components is that it was mostly event-driven. I'm not a big fan of polling for input. Unfortunately, I've read that Microsoft dropped XNA, so I wouldn't be surprised if XAudio2 is going too. That's two abandoned audio systems in five years. And really, OpenAL isn't so bad. There are devices with hardware support (though I'm disabling that to ensure a uniform user experience). And with the rise of Steam, being able to target Linux is a good thing. Then there is the iOS thing, they use OpenAL too. Joal is a great option for Java developers. For iOS there is the excellent Object-AL. Sadly Joal seems to have some issues acquiring the soundcard at times, but that's probably partly the fault of Windows and its drivers. It's also a bit of a resource hog, it does a lot of memory copying that more low-level APIs avoid. But hey, it does save you some resource managing. DirectSound was great, and it's cool that it still works on modern systems, but just like with VB6 I'd strongly suggest new developers skip it altogether. As you said the 3D part is very much broken unless you do your own tweaking (and even then), and to be fair the API really isn't that easy to use compared to XAudio2 or OpenAL. The one nice thing is that you can easily script against it, but that's not too important for serious game developers. Cheers, Davy -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 13:18 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Hi Davy, Well, the problem with XAudio2 is that a number of developers have reported it is buggy. Philip was working on a version of BGT that uses XAudio2, and found out it caused some instabilities in BGT and removed XAudio2 support for the time being. So that is why BGT does not presently support XAudio2. However, I agree for a multi-platform game there is no better option than OpenAL. You can use Joal for Java or write your own custom wrapper for the library for a decent cross-platform audio library that works on Mac, Linux, and Windows. Truth be told I am looking at using OpenAL as a replacement for DirectSound on Windows anyway just because the 3d audio is broken big time on DirectSound in Windows 7, Windows 8, and Windows 8.1. Clearly I need something else other than DirectSound, and XAudio2 is rather up in the air at this point. As far as license agreement stopping someone from reverse engineering code I just can not go with that option. To me that is like someone intentionally leaving their front door unlocked and than hanging a sign outside saying do not enter. A person who respects you as a developer, has some decency, obviously won't reverse your code or pirate your software. However, sad to say a lot of people will not and it never hurts to add a few extra layers of security to keep the amateur wannabe crackers out of your code. At the same time I am no fan boy of a lot of the security methods used out there to secure and license software. As you say anything can be cracked, stolen, etc by the right person so adding an insane amount of security won't work. What I feel is that there has to be a fair balance between reasonable security to keep amateur wannabe crackers out while not being intrusive to legitimate customers. As you yourself said you should stop trying to create a false sense of security as nothing you try or do is perfect. The only thing you or I can do as developers is make a game good enough that people will want to buy it to own it, offer content only available to legitimate customers, and keep the cost reasonable so you make a decent income from it but not so high that people will want to turn to pirating to get it. Cheers! On 12/13/13, Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl wrote: Hi, Yes, it definitely seems that some language coupled with OpenAL is the way to go. For a Windows-only game I'd use XAudio2 (which BGT doesn't do either), but for a multi-platform game OpenAL has a lot to offer inspite of its quirks. It makes transitioning to iOS easier as well, unless you go and use the Papa Engine for full binaural audio in your iOS games. But the Papa Engine and BGT aren't free, which I appreciate can be a bit of a problem for developers just starting out. If you pay those $100 for BGT or your Apple iOS developer account you practically have to come up with something that sells well
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Davy, I just wanted to clarify briefly what issues I had when integrating XAudio2 with BGT. Initially, everything seemed to work flawlessly. But what I noticed when trying it in a large scale project with a lot of sounds playing simultaneously was that XAudio2 would sometimes cause lag before playing a new sound. This was not a sound that had just been opened; it was a sound that had been cloned from another previously existing instance. Therefore I was able to exclude disk IO as the cause. At first I figured that it was probably just my machine being sluggish, but it kept happening regularly. I then wanted to make sure that it wasn't the fact that XAudio2 is virtualized on Windows XP, so I tested it on several Windows 7 and Vista machines with the same results. I then did a side by side comparison of DirectSound and XAudio2, and DirectSound did not suffer from this problem on any of the machines used for the test. This was done in late 2010, but I have not seen any significant new releases of XAudio2 since then so I would presume that the problem still exists. Important to note is that the lag usually does not happen if you have just a few sounds playing at once. You need to reach quantities of about 10 or 15 before it starts to become noticeable. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Hi Thomas, I have had no trouble with XAudio2. That coupled with very low-level input handling using the Win32 API made for some awesome times. Still, the disadvantage to such low-level work (I count XAudio2 as relatively low-level too), is that it takes more work to get things done - including more evaluation of your code to make sure it won't crash at run-time. And the difference inr esponsiveness isn't too big anyway. We're talking milliseconds here. The one thing I did like about those components is that it was mostly event-driven. I'm not a big fan of polling for input. Unfortunately, I've read that Microsoft dropped XNA, so I wouldn't be surprised if XAudio2 is going too. That's two abandoned audio systems in five years. And really, OpenAL isn't so bad. There are devices with hardware support (though I'm disabling that to ensure a uniform user experience). And with the rise of Steam, being able to target Linux is a good thing. Then there is the iOS thing, they use OpenAL too. Joal is a great option for Java developers. For iOS there is the excellent Object-AL. Sadly Joal seems to have some issues acquiring the soundcard at times, but that's probably partly the fault of Windows and its drivers. It's also a bit of a resource hog, it does a lot of memory copying that more low-level APIs avoid. But hey, it does save you some resource managing. DirectSound was great, and it's cool that it still works on modern systems, but just like with VB6 I'd strongly suggest new developers skip it altogether. As you said the 3D part is very much broken unless you do your own tweaking (and even then), and to be fair the API really isn't that easy to use compared to XAudio2 or OpenAL. The one nice thing is that you can easily script against it, but that's not too important for serious game developers. Cheers, Davy --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Thomas, I thought I'd also touch on the subject of sounds (or code) and encryption, since you mentioned licensing and such. Here's a question: Why are you encrypting your sounds? I don't mean how you encrypt them. An industry-standard like AES has been proven to work in the real world, and it can be off-loaded to specialized CPU components for very fast decryption. Inventing your own simple algorithm might not be as secure, but it might be harder to reverse-engineer than a simple call to a system default AES decrypter class. Anyway, back to the why part. Here are a number of reasons to encrypt your sounds: - Your source requests or requires it. - You did your own sounds and don't want others to get their hands on them. - You don't want to spoil the game by allowing users to listen to the cutscenes of levels they haven't unlocked yet. For me, the most important reason is preventing spoilers. Yes, I wouldn't want for my custom-made music to appear on someone's podcast. But think about it: would people really put your music in their productions? Say I snooped Q9's sounds. I absolutely love its music, but if I'd use it for my own project everyone would go Hey, that's Q9! I wouldn't want that. Doesn't mean I don't want to have the Q9 music. I'd love to have it just to listen to. So if there was a $5 or $10 download out there featuring all of the Q9 music, I'd go for it. So that takes care of my second reason for encryption. The first reason is a different beast. If your source for sounds and music requests DRM, you better implement it. But again, such a source would probably be okay with AES encryption, even if you can easily decompile Java classes and pull out the key. So that takes care of the first reason. Now all that remains is preventing spoilers. I agree that the more secure your sounds are, the harder it would be to snatch data. For stuff you haven't unlocked yet, the only way to listen to the spoiler sounds would be to decrypt the sounds themselves. For plain stealing sounds you can work from memory, or even hack dsound.dll to make it dump its buffers to disk. Long story short, this bit definitely requires encryption. The question is if you should switch programming languages just to prevent a handful of people from getting to spoilers. To me it's not. Preventing access to source code you spent months of work on is another story. I'm not yet decided in that area. Cheers, Davy -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 13:18 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Hi Davy, Well, the problem with XAudio2 is that a number of developers have reported it is buggy. Philip was working on a version of BGT that uses XAudio2, and found out it caused some instabilities in BGT and removed XAudio2 support for the time being. So that is why BGT does not presently support XAudio2. However, I agree for a multi-platform game there is no better option than OpenAL. You can use Joal for Java or write your own custom wrapper for the library for a decent cross-platform audio library that works on Mac, Linux, and Windows. Truth be told I am looking at using OpenAL as a replacement for DirectSound on Windows anyway just because the 3d audio is broken big time on DirectSound in Windows 7, Windows 8, and Windows 8.1. Clearly I need something else other than DirectSound, and XAudio2 is rather up in the air at this point. As far as license agreement stopping someone from reverse engineering code I just can not go with that option. To me that is like someone intentionally leaving their front door unlocked and than hanging a sign outside saying do not enter. A person who respects you as a developer, has some decency, obviously won't reverse your code or pirate your software. However, sad to say a lot of people will not and it never hurts to add a few extra layers of security to keep the amateur wannabe crackers out of your code. At the same time I am no fan boy of a lot of the security methods used out there to secure and license software. As you say anything can be cracked, stolen, etc by the right person so adding an insane amount of security won't work. What I feel is that there has to be a fair balance between reasonable security to keep amateur wannabe crackers out while not being intrusive to legitimate customers. As you yourself said you should stop trying to create a false sense of security as nothing you try or do is perfect. The only thing you or I can do as developers is make a game good enough that people will want to buy it to own it, offer content only available to legitimate customers, and keep the cost reasonable so you make a decent income from it but not so high that people will want to turn to pirating to get it. Cheers! On 12/13/13, Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl wrote: Hi, Yes, it definitely seems
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Philip, That is good to know! My project had that many sounds loaded, but they weren't all playing at once. I heard that BGT has no 3D sound support. In that case I fully agree that using DirectSound is the way to go for a Windows-only product. By the way, I'm not criticizing BGT for not having 3D audio. I've always found 3D to be very confusing. In my OpenAL project I happily disable it first thing. Davy -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Philip Bennefall Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 14:20 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Hi Davy, I just wanted to clarify briefly what issues I had when integrating XAudio2 with BGT. Initially, everything seemed to work flawlessly. But what I noticed when trying it in a large scale project with a lot of sounds playing simultaneously was that XAudio2 would sometimes cause lag before playing a new sound. This was not a sound that had just been opened; it was a sound that had been cloned from another previously existing instance. Therefore I was able to exclude disk IO as the cause. At first I figured that it was probably just my machine being sluggish, but it kept happening regularly. I then wanted to make sure that it wasn't the fact that XAudio2 is virtualized on Windows XP, so I tested it on several Windows 7 and Vista machines with the same results. I then did a side by side comparison of DirectSound and XAudio2, and DirectSound did not suffer from this problem on any of the machines used for the test. This was done in late 2010, but I have not seen any significant new release s of XAudio2 since then so I would presume that the problem still exists. Important to note is that the lag usually does not happen if you have just a few sounds playing at once. You need to reach quantities of about 10 or 15 before it starts to become noticeable. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Hi Thomas, I have had no trouble with XAudio2. That coupled with very low-level input handling using the Win32 API made for some awesome times. Still, the disadvantage to such low-level work (I count XAudio2 as relatively low-level too), is that it takes more work to get things done - including more evaluation of your code to make sure it won't crash at run-time. And the difference inr esponsiveness isn't too big anyway. We're talking milliseconds here. The one thing I did like about those components is that it was mostly event-driven. I'm not a big fan of polling for input. Unfortunately, I've read that Microsoft dropped XNA, so I wouldn't be surprised if XAudio2 is going too. That's two abandoned audio systems in five years. And really, OpenAL isn't so bad. There are devices with hardware support (though I'm disabling that to ensure a uniform user experience). And with the rise of Steam, being able to target Linux is a good thing. Then there is the iOS thing, they use OpenAL too. Joal is a great option for Java developers. For iOS there is the excellent Object-AL. Sadly Joal seems to have some issues acquiring the soundcard at times, but that's probably partly the fault of Windows and its drivers. It's also a bit of a resource hog, it does a lot of memory copying that more low-level APIs avoid. But hey, it does save you some resource managing. DirectSound was great, and it's cool that it still works on modern systems, but just like with VB6 I'd strongly suggest new developers skip it altogether. As you said the 3D part is very much broken unless you do your own tweaking (and even then), and to be fair the API really isn't that easy to use compared to XAudio2 or OpenAL. The one nice thing is that you can easily script against it, but that's not too important for serious game developers. Cheers, Davy --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Davy, Initially when I started writing BGT, I figured that it would be best to begin with simple stereo and then go from there. But then I found out that DirectSound 3d is rather broken, and decided to go for XAudio2 instead. You know the rest of that story. So for this reason, BGT will not have 3d audio as long as it uses DirectSound and it doesn't seem viable to switch to XAudio2 at this point considering the issues I encountered. If I do switch to another sound system, I am not opposed to adding 3d audio as an option if people want to use it. Personally I prefer stereo, but of course this depends entirely on the types of games you want to make and other personal preferences. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl To: phi...@blastbay.com; 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 2:35 PM Subject: RE: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Hi Philip, That is good to know! My project had that many sounds loaded, but they weren't all playing at once. I heard that BGT has no 3D sound support. In that case I fully agree that using DirectSound is the way to go for a Windows-only product. By the way, I'm not criticizing BGT for not having 3D audio. I've always found 3D to be very confusing. In my OpenAL project I happily disable it first thing. Davy --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Philip, Would you consider having two ways to play sounds in BGT? I could see the possibility of using XAudio2 on moving creatures and some other system for everything else. Phil - Original Message - From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 8:44 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Hi Davy, Initially when I started writing BGT, I figured that it would be best to begin with simple stereo and then go from there. But then I found out that DirectSound 3d is rather broken, and decided to go for XAudio2 instead. You know the rest of that story. So for this reason, BGT will not have 3d audio as long as it uses DirectSound and it doesn't seem viable to switch to XAudio2 at this point considering the issues I encountered. If I do switch to another sound system, I am not opposed to adding 3d audio as an option if people want to use it. Personally I prefer stereo, but of course this depends entirely on the types of games you want to make and other personal preferences. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Phillip, It was very educational to hear the problems you hit with XAudio2. Could you expound on the issues you had with DirectSound 3D as well? Thanks! Ian Reed On Dec 14, 2013, at 6:44 AM, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote: Hi Davy, Initially when I started writing BGT, I figured that it would be best to begin with simple stereo and then go from there. But then I found out that DirectSound 3d is rather broken, and decided to go for XAudio2 instead. You know the rest of that story. So for this reason, BGT will not have 3d audio as long as it uses DirectSound and it doesn't seem viable to switch to XAudio2 at this point considering the issues I encountered. If I do switch to another sound system, I am not opposed to adding 3d audio as an option if people want to use it. Personally I prefer stereo, but of course this depends entirely on the types of games you want to make and other personal preferences. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Davy, I am glad to hear you had no serious issues with XAudio2, but I was merely reporting what I have heard back from Philip Bennefall and others who tried to use it for a production product. I'm more or less on the fence myself weather or not to adopt it, but it is certainly an option for a Windows developer. Seeing as DirectSound is pretty much deprecated on Windows 7, Windows 8, and Windows 8.1 it is really either XAudio2 or OpenAL for a Windows developer anyway. DirectSound is really only on Windows 7 on up for backwards compatibility and nothing more. What's more DirectSound is emulated rather than actually being the DirectSound 8 library we know from XP and earlier. As for XNA I'm not too sure what Microsoft is doing with it. I have heard the roomers that Microsoft is thinking of scrapping the XNA Framework which would not surprise me. They have not been too committed to .NET development of games. they came out with Managed DirectX, scrapped that, came out with XNA, are looking at scrapping that, and that is primarily why I moved away from C# .NET because Microsoft is too fickle about supporting their .NET APIs where games are concerned. It is also for that reason why I have been looking at open source solutions like OpenAL for my Evolution Engine. At least there I can have access to the code, know someone somewhere is supporting the API, and I am not forced to switch audio library's on a whim because Microsoft or someone decided to switch APIs mid development. Cheers! On 12/14/13, Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl wrote: Hi Thomas, I have had no trouble with XAudio2. That coupled with very low-level input handling using the Win32 API made for some awesome times. Still, the disadvantage to such low-level work (I count XAudio2 as relatively low-level too), is that it takes more work to get things done - including more evaluation of your code to make sure it won't crash at run-time. And the difference inr esponsiveness isn't too big anyway. We're talking milliseconds here. The one thing I did like about those components is that it was mostly event-driven. I'm not a big fan of polling for input. Unfortunately, I've read that Microsoft dropped XNA, so I wouldn't be surprised if XAudio2 is going too. That's two abandoned audio systems in five years. And really, OpenAL isn't so bad. There are devices with hardware support (though I'm disabling that to ensure a uniform user experience). And with the rise of Steam, being able to target Linux is a good thing. Then there is the iOS thing, they use OpenAL too. Joal is a great option for Java developers. For iOS there is the excellent Object-AL. Sadly Joal seems to have some issues acquiring the soundcard at times, but that's probably partly the fault of Windows and its drivers. It's also a bit of a resource hog, it does a lot of memory copying that more low-level APIs avoid. But hey, it does save you some resource managing. DirectSound was great, and it's cool that it still works on modern systems, but just like with VB6 I'd strongly suggest new developers skip it altogether. As you said the 3D part is very much broken unless you do your own tweaking (and even then), and to be fair the API really isn't that easy to use compared to XAudio2 or OpenAL. The one nice thing is that you can easily script against it, but that's not too important for serious game developers. Cheers, Davy --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Davy, I just wanted to clarify briefly what issues I had when integrating XAudio2 with BGT. Initially, everything seemed to work flawlessly. But what I noticed when trying it in a large scale project with a lot of sounds playing simultaneously was that XAudio2 would sometimes cause lag before playing a new sound. This was not a sound that had just been opened; it was a sound that had been cloned from another previously existing instance. Therefore I was able to exclude disk IO as the cause. At first I figured that it was probably just my machine being sluggish, but it kept happening regularly. I then wanted to make sure that it wasn't the fact that XAudio2 is virtualized on Windows XP, so I tested it on several Windows 7 and Vista machines with the same results. I then did a side by side comparison of DirectSound and XAudio2, and DirectSound did not suffer from this problem on any of the machines used for the test. This was done in late 2010, but I have not seen any significant new releases of XAudio2 since then so I would presume that the problem still exists. Important to note is that the lag usually does not happen if you have just a few sounds playing at once. You need to reach quantities of about 10 or 15 before it starts to become noticeable. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Hi Thomas, I have had no trouble with XAudio2. That coupled with very low-level input handling using the Win32 API made for some awesome times. Still, the disadvantage to such low-level work (I count XAudio2 as relatively low-level too), is that it takes more work to get things done - including more evaluation of your code to make sure it won't crash at run-time. And the difference inr esponsiveness isn't too big anyway. We're talking milliseconds here. The one thing I did like about those components is that it was mostly event-driven. I'm not a big fan of polling for input. Unfortunately, I've read that Microsoft dropped XNA, so I wouldn't be surprised if XAudio2 is going too. That's two abandoned audio systems in five years. And really, OpenAL isn't so bad. There are devices with hardware support (though I'm disabling that to ensure a uniform user experience). And with the rise of Steam, being able to target Linux is a good thing. Then there is the iOS thing, they use OpenAL too. Joal is a great option for Java developers. For iOS there is the excellent Object-AL. Sadly Joal seems to have some issues acquiring the soundcard at times, but that's probably partly the fault of Windows and its drivers. It's also a bit of a resource hog, it does a lot of memory copying that more low-level APIs avoid. But hey, it does save you some resource managing. DirectSound was great, and it's cool that it still works on modern systems, but just like with VB6 I'd strongly suggest new developers skip it altogether. As you said the 3D part is very much broken unless you do your own tweaking (and even then), and to be fair the API really isn't that easy to use compared to XAudio2 or OpenAL. The one nice thing is that you can easily script against it, but that's not too important for serious game developers. Cheers, Davy -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 13:18 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Hi Davy, Well, the problem with XAudio2 is that a number of developers have reported it is buggy. Philip was working on a version of BGT that uses XAudio2, and found out it caused some instabilities in BGT and removed XAudio2 support for the time being. So that is why BGT does not presently support XAudio2. However, I agree for a multi-platform game there is no better option than OpenAL. You can use Joal for Java or write your own custom wrapper for the library for a decent cross-platform audio library that works on Mac, Linux, and Windows. Truth be told I am looking at using OpenAL as a replacement for DirectSound on Windows anyway just because the 3d audio is broken big time on DirectSound in Windows 7, Windows 8, and Windows 8.1. Clearly I need something else other than DirectSound, and XAudio2 is rather up in the air at this point. As far as license agreement stopping someone from reverse engineering code I just can not go with that option. To me that is like someone intentionally leaving their front door unlocked and than hanging a sign outside saying do not enter. A person who respects you as a developer, has some decency, obviously won't reverse your code or pirate your software. However, sad to say a lot of people will not and it never hurts to add a few extra layers of security to keep the amateur wannabe crackers out of your code
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
There is always this too: http://coronalabs.com/ Of course the disadvantage is that you don't learn about the native platform in the way you would when going Objective-C. You may also not get the same low-level access (i.e. Accelerated framework, Audio Units) that you get using Objective-C. -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Cara Quinn Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 03:57 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Hi Josh, Yes, you do need a Mac. Not sure if you're offering commentary on my note but if you are, davy mentioned purchasing a Mac and then the big money for the dev account so I was wondering if there might be some confusion here. If you have any other questions on Mac / iOS development, please don't hesitate to ask. :) -Happy to answer them… Have an awesome night! Cara :) --- iOS design and development - LookTel.com --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Dec 13, 2013, at 4:37 PM, Josh joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote: you do need a mac to develop for IOS, right? using windows7 laptop On 12/13/2013 7:13 PM, Cara Quinn wrote: Hi Davy, A question and a comment; When you say big bucks for a developer account, you are aware that this is $99 per year, not per month, yes? This translates to less than $8 per month, -less than $2 per week. Not sure of your budget but just want to make sure we're all on the same page here. :) To your point about not needing XCode when using C++, you do still need XCode to build for iOS / Mac, regardless of whether you use C++ or not. Hope this helps and hope you and yours are having a most lovely holiday season! Smiles, Cara :) --- iOS design and development - LookTel.com --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Dec 13, 2013, at 8:30 AM, Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl wrote: Hi, All very interesting points you made. I tend to agree that C++ is awesome (in an IDE that isn't vendor-specific, with an opensource toolchain). I'd love to automate my build process on Linux and do nightlies for beta testers. My main reason for using Java is that I can't avoid using it in the future, on projects where I don't get to decide what language to use. I am interested in iOS development in the long run. I thought of concentrating on Windows for now, using OpenAL or XAudio2 with C++, and then combining a Mac and iOS project since both use Objective-C and OpenAL. The most prominent reason for not doing that is that I'm not comfortable buying a MacBook and spending big money on a developer account just yet, and XCode is really the way to go for Objective-C. Doing something in C++ would mostly remove the requirement for XCode, which is a good thing to me as I'd like to unify the development process as much as possible. Still, right now I'm leaning towards using Java since I already have a skeleton engine set up in that language and because it's so easy to debug code on the JVM. My only problem is with the ease of decompiling. There are solutions, most notably ahead-of-time compiling, but then you lose not only some advantages of the JVM, but also a huge heap of money. :) But then, I also remember how Thomas struggled to find the right language for MOTA and lost valuable time (I'm told there's still no final version 1 for that game?). Clearly you need to bite that bullet some day or be obscured in the fog of indecisiveness. Cheers, Davy -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Draconis Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 17:06 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Chiming in on these cross-platform topics seems to be a common theme for me. LOL I have three points I’d like to make. First, ignoring Mac as a viable platform for blind gamers is a poor strategy. One year on, and Mac sales are still far exceeding Windows sales, even in comparison to back in the hay day of audio games, some 10 years ago or so. It isn’t just about raw user numbers, it is about demographics and the quality of those users. Which leads me to my second point. There is an old saying: “Lies, damn lies, and statistics.” This could not apply to anything as well as it does to the statement that Android is more popular than iOS overall. It is technically true that Android is used in more devices, but that is because many of those devices are not, strictly speaking, Android devices. That is to say, they are not being used as portable computing devices like iOS devices are. Kindles, Nooks, many models of feature phones, and countless other gadgets, all get lumped into the Android user numbers, even though many of those devices
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Davy and others, I wanted to stop by and briefly explain my current intentions for BGT. When I started developing it in late 2009, I had absolutely no idea how it would do financially. Now, 4 years down the line I can say that while sales have been reasonable considering the number of potential developers in the blind community, BGT is not and has never been something that I am going to get rich from. I never figured I would, either, but the truth is that it simply would not make sense for me to spend the amount of time and effort that would be involved porting it to a new platform. I am certainly not discounting Mac OS X/IOS as viable distribution channels. They are growing every day and I target them in all the mainstream projects that I am involved in at present. These other projects were written with cross platform support in mind from the get-go, while BGT was written exclusively for Windows. This means that BGT would require a major overhaul to be portable to other platforms, and I do not feel that an investment on such a scale would be viable at this point considering my current schedule. Had I decided to create an audio game engine at this time, it would certainly have been written with cross platform compatibility in mind from the start. This is not the case with BGT, however, and I cannot spend much more time and money developing it considering the sales figures it has been generating thus far. This certainly does not mean that BGT is going to be abandoned. Far from it. I still enjoy making games as a hobby from time to time, and for that, it works very well for my needs. But I will not be working on it full time as I did a year ago. So for those of you who have been hoping for a cross platform BGT release, I am sorry I can't bring more positive news. However I felt it was better to clearly announce my intentions as opposed to staying silent and leaving users to wonder and speculate. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 5:17 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Hi, With all due respect, but you really don't want to pick up coding in VB6 anymore. PureBasic I wouldn't know, I haven't looked at it before. With C++ (or Java) you really aren't coding from scratch. OpenAL has a C API, Java has an OpenAL wrapper, and of course there's DirectSound and XAudio2 which have their respective APIs. Oh, and Java's own sound API, which is good enough for basic stuff. I'm not even going to try and list all the third-party options. The one thing you will have to do yourself is resource management, but that is true for any language if you want to write efficient code that doesn't eat your system memory. And in C++ you'll require external libraries, dynamic or static, to do certain things. Java is a lot nicer in that regard, but as Thomas pointed out it takes less than a minute to get to the entire code-base of a project. Also, I haven't actually tried BGT myself. All I know about it comes from the website. I'm not criticizing it, only trying to find out what it can and cannot do. Cheers, Davy -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of shaun everiss Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 00:04 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Well davie, when danny and I were working on the deathmatch series danny found out we all did that there were limitations with bgt. Sertain things need to be written a sertain way. And the way we were expanding the deathmatch series was just really going outside of bgt's limits. deathmatch1 is not finnished to what it was going to be. There are so many issues with bgt and its limits and we came on them with saving, arrays and a lot of other things that we have exhausted the language. It was never meant for really large games at least we think so. The engine is good but there is a limit how much you can really do with it. Deathmatch1 was planned to have 10 missions or as many as we could put on. however by mission 3 danny was running out of ideas and as it was there were so many issues by this time. I can tell you we were going to have 4 missions but after all the issues danny has lost interest in that game and decided to end it as quickly as possible. Deathmatch2 started in pure basic but there are some issues to and so its visual basic 6. If you know c++ davie and can code with it then I suggest you stay with it if you can. I think danny and some others would like to learn but its a lot of work writing everything from scratch. However if you do use it on a daily basis I'd stay with that then I would stay with it. As for jawa, I do have java loaded. I've never had much fun with games based on it though. On the subject with sounds, music, etc. There is a way to do this, A lot of games
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Davy: While it is true that Angelscript, the scripting language built into BGT , can be compiled and run on Mac OS X it is my understanding Philip Bennefall has no current plans to port BGT to Mac. Besides not owning a Mac, having to rewrite various components for the Mac, Philip has stated on more than one occasion he doesn't feel porting BGT to Mac is a solid financial investment. the market is still too small to make it financially worth while. So while he may change his mind in the future I think for the time being there are no plans for a Mac version of BGT. I am also a Java developer, but in my experience cooking one executable in Java and having it work on Mac, Windows, and Linux as expected doesn't always work out as intended. Variations in JRE can cause unforeseen bugs or technical problems which is why I haven't relied on it for audio gaming. Although, I'd agree it is easier to make cross-platform versions of games and applications in Java than it would be to use something like C++. Security is and has also been a concern of mine as well. I love the Java language, feel the speed is comfortable, but I don't like the fact some two-bit hacker can take my class files and convert them back to human readable source code in like two seconds flat. That makes me very weary of using Java for any of my commercial endeavors, because it is too easy to hack and any security keys or code generation in my code can be reversed engineered fairly easy by another Java developer. Not good. Still faced with a choice between Java or BGT I'd take Java because all of the options it gives me as a developer in terms of Windows, Mac, Linux, and of course Android development. BGT while a good product is in many ways a dead-end to anyone who wants to develop outside of the Windows environment which is becoming more and more necessary by the day. There is already a large and growing community of blind users who have switched to Mac OS, an even larger blind community of blind users now using iPhones, and a small but vibrant handful using Android phones. All of those are possible markets to target with accessible games, and BGT is going nowhere in that direction in terms of game development. So Java or C++ is still your best bet for accessible game development. Cheers! On 12/11/13, Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl wrote: Whoa, has been ages since I last posted here! Anyway, nerd questions coming up. I’d be interested to know if there are any plans to turn BGT loose on Mac OS. I believe the scripting language it uses is capable of running on Mac OS, so that’s a start, isn’t it? Here is the background story, for those interested: I’ve been developing both “regular” applications and games, although to be fair I’ve spent very little time on games over the last few years. I use mostly Java, occasionally C++ as well. Recently I figured I’d start being serious about games again. The obvious thing to do would be to turn to Java (which is what I did), since I have to use that for more professional projects anyway so I might as well stick to something I know. Java is great for cross-platform work. Except for a few nitty gritty details you can basically cook one executable and run it on Windows, Mac OS and Linux. Java’s performance is good too, and with the upcoming Java 8 and 9 it will become less painful to distribute the required JVM with your source code, removing the need for your users to install extra software. Not to mention that debugging code is a breeze. The single disadvantage is that it is super easy to decompile Java, to the point where the original source emerges, so encrypting user data is virtually useless. Things like TLS for secure Internet communication still work of course, but all security keys you store in your code are visible to anyone and everyone. .NET kind of suffers from the same thing, by the way. Had some good times messing about with Entombed back when. J So then, I could use C++ (and optionally one of those executable scramblers that the cool kids love to use). To the trained professional disassembling a program written in C++ to find a certain bit of logic can be as straight-forward as decompiling Java, but it definitely makes life harder for the average Joe who wants to hack some sounds he particularly likes. On the other hand, as a developer you have to take a few extra steps to produce the required executables for the platforms you want to support. Debugging might also be a bit more cumbersome. In comes BGT. It’s very secure (although no software is truly unbreakable), its syntax isn’t a problem if you know C++ already, and it creates very efficient executables. On the donw-side, I’m told it’s only available on Windows, and you don’t get to use standards directly (AKA OpenAL, Java runtime, standard C++ library). I really don’t mind about the standards, but I believe I’d upset a few people if I’d leave out support for Mac OS.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
how about porting it to android then because android is a very very popular platform indeed way way more so than mac is. It would be fun to play q9 on android. or if someone made papa sangre for android. using windows7 laptop On 12/13/2013 7:20 AM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Davy: While it is true that Angelscript, the scripting language built into BGT , can be compiled and run on Mac OS X it is my understanding Philip Bennefall has no current plans to port BGT to Mac. Besides not owning a Mac, having to rewrite various components for the Mac, Philip has stated on more than one occasion he doesn't feel porting BGT to Mac is a solid financial investment. the market is still too small to make it financially worth while. So while he may change his mind in the future I think for the time being there are no plans for a Mac version of BGT. I am also a Java developer, but in my experience cooking one executable in Java and having it work on Mac, Windows, and Linux as expected doesn't always work out as intended. Variations in JRE can cause unforeseen bugs or technical problems which is why I haven't relied on it for audio gaming. Although, I'd agree it is easier to make cross-platform versions of games and applications in Java than it would be to use something like C++. Security is and has also been a concern of mine as well. I love the Java language, feel the speed is comfortable, but I don't like the fact some two-bit hacker can take my class files and convert them back to human readable source code in like two seconds flat. That makes me very weary of using Java for any of my commercial endeavors, because it is too easy to hack and any security keys or code generation in my code can be reversed engineered fairly easy by another Java developer. Not good. Still faced with a choice between Java or BGT I'd take Java because all of the options it gives me as a developer in terms of Windows, Mac, Linux, and of course Android development. BGT while a good product is in many ways a dead-end to anyone who wants to develop outside of the Windows environment which is becoming more and more necessary by the day. There is already a large and growing community of blind users who have switched to Mac OS, an even larger blind community of blind users now using iPhones, and a small but vibrant handful using Android phones. All of those are possible markets to target with accessible games, and BGT is going nowhere in that direction in terms of game development. So Java or C++ is still your best bet for accessible game development. Cheers! On 12/11/13, Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl wrote: Whoa, has been ages since I last posted here! Anyway, nerd questions coming up. I’d be interested to know if there are any plans to turn BGT loose on Mac OS. I believe the scripting language it uses is capable of running on Mac OS, so that’s a start, isn’t it? Here is the background story, for those interested: I’ve been developing both “regular” applications and games, although to be fair I’ve spent very little time on games over the last few years. I use mostly Java, occasionally C++ as well. Recently I figured I’d start being serious about games again. The obvious thing to do would be to turn to Java (which is what I did), since I have to use that for more professional projects anyway so I might as well stick to something I know. Java is great for cross-platform work. Except for a few nitty gritty details you can basically cook one executable and run it on Windows, Mac OS and Linux. Java’s performance is good too, and with the upcoming Java 8 and 9 it will become less painful to distribute the required JVM with your source code, removing the need for your users to install extra software. Not to mention that debugging code is a breeze. The single disadvantage is that it is super easy to decompile Java, to the point where the original source emerges, so encrypting user data is virtually useless. Things like TLS for secure Internet communication still work of course, but all security keys you store in your code are visible to anyone and everyone. .NET kind of suffers from the same thing, by the way. Had some good times messing about with Entombed back when. J So then, I could use C++ (and optionally one of those executable scramblers that the cool kids love to use). To the trained professional disassembling a program written in C++ to find a certain bit of logic can be as straight-forward as decompiling Java, but it definitely makes life harder for the average Joe who wants to hack some sounds he particularly likes. On the other hand, as a developer you have to take a few extra steps to produce the required executables for the platforms you want to support. Debugging might also be a bit more cumbersome. In comes BGT. It’s very secure (although no software is truly unbreakable), its syntax isn’t a problem if you know C++ already, and it creates very efficient executables. On the donw-side, I’m told it’s only
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hello Josh: Well, I sincerely doubt Android has more blind users than Mac OS, but even if true there are a number of technical issues. The primary one is Android apps are written in Java and BGT was written in C++. So to begin with BGT would likely have to be rewritten from the ground up in Java which is not a small or minor feat. The Angelscript library as far as I know was not written for mobile platforms like Android either meaning that it too would need to be ported to Android as well. In short, it is not so simple or as easy as you think it is to port BGT from Windows to an Android phone. Besides that selling audio games of any kind on Android has been a commercial failure from all I have heard. For instance, Liam released a game Audio Archery for Android and iPhone. It sold 80 copies for Android and over a thousand for iPhone. That alone proves Android, while an emerging technology for the blind, is a pretty poor platform for selling products right now. the market just is not there yet. Cheers! On 12/13/13, Josh joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote: how about porting it to android then because android is a very very popular platform indeed way way more so than mac is. It would be fun to play q9 on android. or if someone made papa sangre for android. using windows7 laptop --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
I wonder how well the nearby explorer gps app is doing sales wise? that is an app for blind people, a gps app though. and its android only. I did read though that overall for sighted people android is more popular than IOS. using windows7 laptop On 12/13/2013 9:03 AM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hello Josh: Well, I sincerely doubt Android has more blind users than Mac OS, but even if true there are a number of technical issues. The primary one is Android apps are written in Java and BGT was written in C++. So to begin with BGT would likely have to be rewritten from the ground up in Java which is not a small or minor feat. The Angelscript library as far as I know was not written for mobile platforms like Android either meaning that it too would need to be ported to Android as well. In short, it is not so simple or as easy as you think it is to port BGT from Windows to an Android phone. Besides that selling audio games of any kind on Android has been a commercial failure from all I have heard. For instance, Liam released a game Audio Archery for Android and iPhone. It sold 80 copies for Android and over a thousand for iPhone. That alone proves Android, while an emerging technology for the blind, is a pretty poor platform for selling products right now. the market just is not there yet. Cheers! On 12/13/13, Josh joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote: how about porting it to android then because android is a very very popular platform indeed way way more so than mac is. It would be fun to play q9 on android. or if someone made papa sangre for android. using windows7 laptop --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi, Yes, it definitely seems that some language coupled with OpenAL is the way to go. For a Windows-only game I'd use XAudio2 (which BGT doesn't do either), but for a multi-platform game OpenAL has a lot to offer inspite of its quirks. It makes transitioning to iOS easier as well, unless you go and use the Papa Engine for full binaural audio in your iOS games. But the Papa Engine and BGT aren't free, which I appreciate can be a bit of a problem for developers just starting out. If you pay those $100 for BGT or your Apple iOS developer account you practically have to come up with something that sells well in order to make it, as you say, financially viable. The cross-platform applications I have developed so far worked reasonably well on Mac, although I never made a serious effort to make the Mac version as streamlined as the Windows version since demand was low. This seems to be rapidly changing now. So yes, coding your own engine in Java or C++ is a lot more work than licensing BGT and using that, but I feel the benefits justify that decision (provided you have the time and resources to take on such a project). Java's lack of security certainly stings. It's understandable if you look at Java's history and intended use, but still... On the other hand, the license agreement should legally stop any legitimate user from prying. Of course enforcing a license agreement is a bit of a toughy for indie developers. But even so, if you have an awesome online back-end to your game, i.e. the bazaar in Entombed, users would still have a good reason to buy the real thing. Not to mention the whole gratitude bit: I took the time to develop for a niche market, so saying thanks by pirating isn't very nice. The harsh truth is that any software can be pirated if the right people get their hands on it. I'm especially concerned about my game's audio being stolen, partly because I want my audio to be at least somewhat unique and partly because it might get me into a legal corner if some kid steals my audio and puts it up somewhere. But then again, no encryption is going to be perfect. Java is the extreme example. You can't properly hide your decryption key in code, and externalizing it makes it even easier for someone to do the decryption themselves. You could definitely store the key on a remote server and download it everytime the game is started, but then your players can't use the game while offline. You could also code your own implementation of AES and push your class files through an obfuscator. That'd probably stop most people, but it's very ugly indeed. So Java is really bad. Except that memory dumping a BGT game also spills a lot of interesting data. So yes, it securely stores sound data on disk, but it has to be played back at some point. I guess you'd just have to make your game good enough that people are willing to pay for it, much like true fans of a pop star will still buy their songs instead of downloading them illegally. Oh, and obviously the more encryption runs you put in, the slower your game is going to be. And in the end, a determined hacker can still get in. I think I have to watch myself and stop trying to create a fake feeling of security. That doesn't mean I like how people can decompile my classes, though. I suppose I have to set priorities: rapid development or better pseudo-security. Cheers, Davy -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 13:20 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Hi Davy: While it is true that Angelscript, the scripting language built into BGT , can be compiled and run on Mac OS X it is my understanding Philip Bennefall has no current plans to port BGT to Mac. Besides not owning a Mac, having to rewrite various components for the Mac, Philip has stated on more than one occasion he doesn't feel porting BGT to Mac is a solid financial investment. the market is still too small to make it financially worth while. So while he may change his mind in the future I think for the time being there are no plans for a Mac version of BGT. I am also a Java developer, but in my experience cooking one executable in Java and having it work on Mac, Windows, and Linux as expected doesn't always work out as intended. Variations in JRE can cause unforeseen bugs or technical problems which is why I haven't relied on it for audio gaming. Although, I'd agree it is easier to make cross-platform versions of games and applications in Java than it would be to use something like C++. Security is and has also been a concern of mine as well. I love the Java language, feel the speed is comfortable, but I don't like the fact some two-bit hacker can take my class files and convert them back to human readable source code in like two seconds flat. That makes me very weary of using Java for any of my commercial
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Well davie, when danny and I were working on the deathmatch series danny found out we all did that there were limitations with bgt. Sertain things need to be written a sertain way. And the way we were expanding the deathmatch series was just really going outside of bgt's limits. deathmatch1 is not finnished to what it was going to be. There are so many issues with bgt and its limits and we came on them with saving, arrays and a lot of other things that we have exhausted the language. It was never meant for really large games at least we think so. The engine is good but there is a limit how much you can really do with it. Deathmatch1 was planned to have 10 missions or as many as we could put on. however by mission 3 danny was running out of ideas and as it was there were so many issues by this time. I can tell you we were going to have 4 missions but after all the issues danny has lost interest in that game and decided to end it as quickly as possible. Deathmatch2 started in pure basic but there are some issues to and so its visual basic 6. If you know c++ davie and can code with it then I suggest you stay with it if you can. I think danny and some others would like to learn but its a lot of work writing everything from scratch. However if you do use it on a daily basis I'd stay with that then I would stay with it. As for jawa, I do have java loaded. I've never had much fun with games based on it though. On the subject with sounds, music, etc. There is a way to do this, A lot of games that are comercial that have come lately depending on what additions you get, and how much you pay do include soundtracks as actual files as bonus content. At 09:08 AM 12/12/2013, you wrote: Whoa, has been ages since I last posted here! Anyway, nerd questions coming up. Iâd be interested to know if there are any plans to turn BGT loose on Mac OS. I believe the scripting language it uses is capable of running on Mac OS, so thatâs a start, isnât it? Here is the background story, for those interested: Iâve been developing both âregularâ applications and games, although to be fair Iâve spent very little time on games over the last few years. I use mostly Java, occasionally C++ as well. Recently I figured Iâd start being serious about games again. The obvious thing to do would be to turn to Java (which is what I did), since I have to use that for more professional projects anyway so I might as well stick to something I know. Java is great for cross-platform work. Except for a few nitty gritty details you can basically cook one executable and run it on Windows, Mac OS and Linux. Javaâs performance is good too, and with the upcoming Java 8 and 9 it will become less painful to distribute the required JVM with your source code, removing the need for your users to install extra software. Not to mention that debugging code is a breeze. The single disadvantage is that it is super easy to decompile Java, to the point where the original source emerges, so encrypting user data is virtually useless. Things like TLS for secure Internet communication still work of course, but all security keys you store in your code are visible to anyone and everyone. .NET kind of suffers from the same thing, by the way. Had some good times messing about with Entombed back when. J So then, I could use C++ (and optionally one of those executable scramblers that the cool kids love to use). To the trained professional disassembling a program written in C++ to find a certain bit of logic can be as straight-forward as decompiling Java, but it definitely makes life harder for the average Joe who wants to hack some sounds he particularly likes. On the other hand, as a developer you have to take a few extra steps to produce the required executables for the platforms you want to support. Debugging might also be a bit more cumbersome. In comes BGT. Itâs very secure (although no software is truly unbreakable), its syntax isnât a problem if you know C++ already, and it creates very efficient executables. On the donw-side, Iâm told itâs only available on Windows, and you donât get to use standards directly (AKA OpenAL, Java runtime, standard C++ library). I really donât mind about the standards, but I believe Iâd upset a few people if Iâd leave out support for Mac OS. Actually, knowing standard things can be fun, too. If you want to develop for Android, Java would be an excellent choice, so it helps if your products for PC and Mac are already using it. Similarly, knowing OpenAL is great for moving on to iOS games, since Apple natively supports OpenAL. But really, Javaâs not good at running on the same machine where the encrypted data lives without applying security on the OS level. Iâm not too concerned about people coming up with their own keygens. If you have a members-only area inside your game that requires
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Chiming in on these cross-platform topics seems to be a common theme for me. LOL I have three points I’d like to make. First, ignoring Mac as a viable platform for blind gamers is a poor strategy. One year on, and Mac sales are still far exceeding Windows sales, even in comparison to back in the hay day of audio games, some 10 years ago or so. It isn’t just about raw user numbers, it is about demographics and the quality of those users. Which leads me to my second point. There is an old saying: “Lies, damn lies, and statistics.” This could not apply to anything as well as it does to the statement that Android is more popular than iOS overall. It is technically true that Android is used in more devices, but that is because many of those devices are not, strictly speaking, Android devices. That is to say, they are not being used as portable computing devices like iOS devices are. Kindles, Nooks, many models of feature phones, and countless other gadgets, all get lumped into the Android user numbers, even though many of those devices are so limited in scope that users don’t even know Android was used in their development. This is why, in the areas that matters, iOS’s numbers are so much better than Android’s, despite the marketshare numbers that the media likes to quote. iOS consistently has over 80% of web usage from mobile devices, for example. iOS users are for more likely to pay for apps, too. iOS users also spend more time on their devices, showing greater engagement with the platform. And those kinds of numbers go on and on. It is the same kind of trick as companies like Samsung use that create headlines in the news like: “Samsung sells 10 million Galaxy blah blah”. In reality, they shipped that number to resellers and warehouses. Shipped, but not necessarily sold to end users. Samsung never actually releases specific sales numbers. They only ever announce numbers of units shipped. It sounds better that way. Apple, conversely, only ever announces sales to end users, and never the number of units shipped. All of this, before you even start taking into account the fragmentation of Android, which is a disaster that Google is continuing to scramble to get a hold on with nothing to show for it. Less than 2% of Android devices are running the latest version of the OS, compared with over 70% of iOS devices. Android is a support nightmare for developers, much as Windows is. Granted, that 2% number may be slightly skewed, given Google’s continued desire to artificially inflate the usage numbers of Android, but it is still a huge problem for the platform. My final point is a technical one. We explored a number of options for developing the Draconis Engine, including experimenting with various languages, techniques, and technologies. We have now shipped multiple titles on three platforms in the space of eleven months. Three Mac releases, three Windows releases, and one iOS release. (This assumes you count the Show Cases for Mac/Windows.) The Draconis Engine was created with C++ primarily, with very tiny portions written in Objective-C to cover OS X and iOS GUI, and small portions in C# for Windows. While C++, like any language, has advantages and disadvantages, if you are interested in cross-platform development, particularly game development, we found that the relatively minor trade offs were worth the huge advantages we gained by going this route. Just about all other cross-platform methods, like Java or Python, come with huge disadvantages, as I believe Tom has mostly already covered. Hope this is helpful. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi, With all due respect, but you really don't want to pick up coding in VB6 anymore. PureBasic I wouldn't know, I haven't looked at it before. With C++ (or Java) you really aren't coding from scratch. OpenAL has a C API, Java has an OpenAL wrapper, and of course there's DirectSound and XAudio2 which have their respective APIs. Oh, and Java's own sound API, which is good enough for basic stuff. I'm not even going to try and list all the third-party options. The one thing you will have to do yourself is resource management, but that is true for any language if you want to write efficient code that doesn't eat your system memory. And in C++ you'll require external libraries, dynamic or static, to do certain things. Java is a lot nicer in that regard, but as Thomas pointed out it takes less than a minute to get to the entire code-base of a project. Also, I haven't actually tried BGT myself. All I know about it comes from the website. I'm not criticizing it, only trying to find out what it can and cannot do. Cheers, Davy -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of shaun everiss Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 00:04 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Well davie, when danny and I were working on the deathmatch series danny found out we all did that there were limitations with bgt. Sertain things need to be written a sertain way. And the way we were expanding the deathmatch series was just really going outside of bgt's limits. deathmatch1 is not finnished to what it was going to be. There are so many issues with bgt and its limits and we came on them with saving, arrays and a lot of other things that we have exhausted the language. It was never meant for really large games at least we think so. The engine is good but there is a limit how much you can really do with it. Deathmatch1 was planned to have 10 missions or as many as we could put on. however by mission 3 danny was running out of ideas and as it was there were so many issues by this time. I can tell you we were going to have 4 missions but after all the issues danny has lost interest in that game and decided to end it as quickly as possible. Deathmatch2 started in pure basic but there are some issues to and so its visual basic 6. If you know c++ davie and can code with it then I suggest you stay with it if you can. I think danny and some others would like to learn but its a lot of work writing everything from scratch. However if you do use it on a daily basis I'd stay with that then I would stay with it. As for jawa, I do have java loaded. I've never had much fun with games based on it though. On the subject with sounds, music, etc. There is a way to do this, A lot of games that are comercial that have come lately depending on what additions you get, and how much you pay do include soundtracks as actual files as bonus content. At 09:08 AM 12/12/2013, you wrote: Whoa, has been ages since I last posted here! Anyway, nerd questions coming up. I’d be interested to know if there are any plans to turn BGT loose on Mac OS. I believe the scripting language it uses is capable of running on Mac OS, so that’s a start, isn’t it? Here is the background story, for those interested: I’ve been developing both “regular†applications and games, although to be fair I’ve spent very little time on games over the last few years. I use mostly Java, occasionally C++ as well. Recently I figured I’d start being serious about games again. The obvious thing to do would be to turn to Java (which is what I did), since I have to use that for more professional projects anyway so I might as well stick to something I know. Java is great for cross-platform work. Except for a few nitty gritty details you can basically cook one executable and run it on Windows, Mac OS and Linux. Java’s performance is good too, and with the upcoming Java 8 and 9 it will become less painful to distribute the required JVM with your source code, removing the need for your users to install extra software. Not to mention that debugging code is a breeze. The single disadvantage is that it is super easy to decompile Java, to the point where the original source emerges, so encrypting user data is virtually useless. Things like TLS for secure Internet communication still work of course, but all security keys you store in your code are visible to anyone and everyone. .NET kind of suffers from the same thing, by the way. Had some good times messing about with Entombed back when. J So then, I could use C++ (and optionally one of those executable scramblers that the cool kids love to use). To the trained professional disassembling a program written in C++ to find a certain bit of logic can be as straight-forward as decompiling Java, but it definitely makes life harder for the average Joe who wants to hack some sounds he particularly likes
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi, All very interesting points you made. I tend to agree that C++ is awesome (in an IDE that isn't vendor-specific, with an opensource toolchain). I'd love to automate my build process on Linux and do nightlies for beta testers. My main reason for using Java is that I can't avoid using it in the future, on projects where I don't get to decide what language to use. I am interested in iOS development in the long run. I thought of concentrating on Windows for now, using OpenAL or XAudio2 with C++, and then combining a Mac and iOS project since both use Objective-C and OpenAL. The most prominent reason for not doing that is that I'm not comfortable buying a MacBook and spending big money on a developer account just yet, and XCode is really the way to go for Objective-C. Doing something in C++ would mostly remove the requirement for XCode, which is a good thing to me as I'd like to unify the development process as much as possible. Still, right now I'm leaning towards using Java since I already have a skeleton engine set up in that language and because it's so easy to debug code on the JVM. My only problem is with the ease of decompiling. There are solutions, most notably ahead-of-time compiling, but then you lose not only some advantages of the JVM, but also a huge heap of money. :) But then, I also remember how Thomas struggled to find the right language for MOTA and lost valuable time (I'm told there's still no final version 1 for that game?). Clearly you need to bite that bullet some day or be obscured in the fog of indecisiveness. Cheers, Davy -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Draconis Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 17:06 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Chiming in on these cross-platform topics seems to be a common theme for me. LOL I have three points I’d like to make. First, ignoring Mac as a viable platform for blind gamers is a poor strategy. One year on, and Mac sales are still far exceeding Windows sales, even in comparison to back in the hay day of audio games, some 10 years ago or so. It isn’t just about raw user numbers, it is about demographics and the quality of those users. Which leads me to my second point. There is an old saying: “Lies, damn lies, and statistics.” This could not apply to anything as well as it does to the statement that Android is more popular than iOS overall. It is technically true that Android is used in more devices, but that is because many of those devices are not, strictly speaking, Android devices. That is to say, they are not being used as portable computing devices like iOS devices are. Kindles, Nooks, many models of feature phones, and countless other gadgets, all get lumped into the Android user numbers, even though many of those devices are so limited in scope that users don’t even know Android was used in their development. This is why, in the areas that matters, iOS’s numbers are so much better than Android’s, despite the marketshare numbers that the media likes to quote. iOS consistently has over 80% of web usage from mobile devices, for example. iOS users are for more likely to pay for apps, too. iOS users also spend more time on their devices, showing greater engagement with the platform. And those kinds of numbers go on and on. It is the same kind of trick as companies like Samsung use that create headlines in the news like: “Samsung sells 10 million Galaxy blah blah”. In reality, they shipped that number to resellers and warehouses. Shipped, but not necessarily sold to end users. Samsung never actually releases specific sales numbers. They only ever announce numbers of units shipped. It sounds better that way. Apple, conversely, only ever announces sales to end users, and never the number of units shipped. All of this, before you even start taking into account the fragmentation of Android, which is a disaster that Google is continuing to scramble to get a hold on with nothing to show for it. Less than 2% of Android devices are running the latest version of the OS, compared with over 70% of iOS devices. Android is a support nightmare for developers, much as Windows is. Granted, that 2% number may be slightly skewed, given Google’s continued desire to artificially inflate the usage numbers of Android, but it is still a huge problem for the platform. My final point is a technical one. We explored a number of options for developing the Draconis Engine, including experimenting with various languages, techniques, and technologies. We have now shipped multiple titles on three platforms in the space of eleven months. Three Mac releases, three Windows releases, and one iOS release. (This assumes you count the Show Cases for Mac/Windows.) The Draconis Engine was created with C++ primarily, with very tiny portions written in Objective-C to cover OS X and iOS GUI, and small portions in C
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Statistics can be disceiving. Years ago, there was a battle between the American and National leagues as which was more popular. The American league, according to statistics, was more popular. Ah. But what statistics?? More tickets were sold for American League games. However, if you looked at how many fans actually attended baseball games, there were more fans actually going through the turnstiles at National League games. More fans actually went to see the National League games. The American League's focus was on sales and income, but the National League's focus was on actual attendance. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Draconis i...@dracoent.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 10:05 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Chiming in on these cross-platform topics seems to be a common theme for me. LOL I have three points I’d like to make. First, ignoring Mac as a viable platform for blind gamers is a poor strategy. One year on, and Mac sales are still far exceeding Windows sales, even in comparison to back in the hay day of audio games, some 10 years ago or so. It isn’t just about raw user numbers, it is about demographics and the quality of those users. Which leads me to my second point. There is an old saying: “Lies, damn lies, and statistics.” This could not apply to anything as well as it does to the statement that Android is more popular than iOS overall. It is technically true that Android is used in more devices, but that is because many of those devices are not, strictly speaking, Android devices. That is to say, they are not being used as portable computing devices like iOS devices are. Kindles, Nooks, many models of feature phones, and countless other gadgets, all get lumped into the Android user numbers, even though many of those devices are so limited in scope that users don’t even know Android was used in their development. This is why, in the areas that matters, iOS’s numbers are so much better than Android’s, despite the marketshare numbers that the media likes to quote. iOS consistently has over 80% of web usage from mobile devices, for example. iOS users are for more likely to pay for apps, too. iOS users also spend more time on their devices, showing greater engagement with the platform. And those kinds of numbers go on and on. It is the same kind of trick as companies like Samsung use that create headlines in the news like: “Samsung sells 10 million Galaxy blah blah”. In reality, they shipped that number to resellers and warehouses. Shipped, but not necessarily sold to end users. Samsung never actually releases specific sales numbers. They only ever announce numbers of units shipped. It sounds better that way. Apple, conversely, only ever announces sales to end users, and never the number of units shipped. All of this, before you even start taking into account the fragmentation of Android, which is a disaster that Google is continuing to scramble to get a hold on with nothing to show for it. Less than 2% of Android devices are running the latest version of the OS, compared with over 70% of iOS devices. Android is a support nightmare for developers, much as Windows is. Granted, that 2% number may be slightly skewed, given Google’s continued desire to artificially inflate the usage numbers of Android, but it is still a huge problem for the platform. My final point is a technical one. We explored a number of options for developing the Draconis Engine, including experimenting with various languages, techniques, and technologies. We have now shipped multiple titles on three platforms in the space of eleven months. Three Mac releases, three Windows releases, and one iOS release. (This assumes you count the Show Cases for Mac/Windows.) The Draconis Engine was created with C++ primarily, with very tiny portions written in Objective-C to cover OS X and iOS GUI, and small portions in C# for Windows. While C++, like any language, has advantages and disadvantages, if you are interested in cross-platform development, particularly game development, we found that the relatively minor trade offs were worth the huge advantages we gained by going this route. Just about all other cross-platform methods, like Java or Python, come with huge disadvantages, as I believe Tom has mostly already covered. Hope this is helpful. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Davy and others, I wanted to stop by and briefly explain my current intentions for BGT. When I started developing it in late 2009, I had absolutely no idea how it would do financially. Now, 4 years down the line I can say that while sales have been reasonable considering the number of potential developers in the blind community, BGT is not and has never been something that I am going to get rich from. I never figured I would, either, but the truth is that it simply would not make sense for me to spend the amount of time and effort that would be involved porting it to a new platform. I am certainly not discounting Mac OS X/IOS as viable distribution channels. They are growing every day and I target them in all the mainstream projects that I am involved in at present. These other projects were written with cross platform support in mind from the get-go, while BGT was written exclusively for Windows. This means that BGT would require a major overhaul to be portable to other platforms, and I do not feel that an investment on such a scale would be viable at this point considering my current schedule. Had I decided to create an audio game engine at this time, it would certainly have been written with cross platform compatibility in mind from the start. This is not the case with BGT, however, and I cannot spend much more time and money developing it considering the sales figures it has been generating thus far. This certainly does not mean that BGT is going to be abandoned. Far from it. I still enjoy making games as a hobby from time to time, and for that, it works very well for my needs. But I will not be working on it full time as I did a year ago. So for those of you who have been hoping for a cross platform BGT release, I am sorry I can't bring more positive news. However I felt it was better to clearly announce my intentions as opposed to staying silent and leaving users to wonder and speculate. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Davy, A question and a comment; When you say big bucks for a developer account, you are aware that this is $99 per year, not per month, yes? This translates to less than $8 per month, -less than $2 per week. Not sure of your budget but just want to make sure we're all on the same page here. :) To your point about not needing XCode when using C++, you do still need XCode to build for iOS / Mac, regardless of whether you use C++ or not. Hope this helps and hope you and yours are having a most lovely holiday season! Smiles, Cara :) --- iOS design and development - LookTel.com --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Dec 13, 2013, at 8:30 AM, Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl wrote: Hi, All very interesting points you made. I tend to agree that C++ is awesome (in an IDE that isn't vendor-specific, with an opensource toolchain). I'd love to automate my build process on Linux and do nightlies for beta testers. My main reason for using Java is that I can't avoid using it in the future, on projects where I don't get to decide what language to use. I am interested in iOS development in the long run. I thought of concentrating on Windows for now, using OpenAL or XAudio2 with C++, and then combining a Mac and iOS project since both use Objective-C and OpenAL. The most prominent reason for not doing that is that I'm not comfortable buying a MacBook and spending big money on a developer account just yet, and XCode is really the way to go for Objective-C. Doing something in C++ would mostly remove the requirement for XCode, which is a good thing to me as I'd like to unify the development process as much as possible. Still, right now I'm leaning towards using Java since I already have a skeleton engine set up in that language and because it's so easy to debug code on the JVM. My only problem is with the ease of decompiling. There are solutions, most notably ahead-of-time compiling, but then you lose not only some advantages of the JVM, but also a huge heap of money. :) But then, I also remember how Thomas struggled to find the right language for MOTA and lost valuable time (I'm told there's still no final version 1 for that game?). Clearly you need to bite that bullet some day or be obscured in the fog of indecisiveness. Cheers, Davy -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Draconis Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 17:06 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Chiming in on these cross-platform topics seems to be a common theme for me. LOL I have three points I’d like to make. First, ignoring Mac as a viable platform for blind gamers is a poor strategy. One year on, and Mac sales are still far exceeding Windows sales, even in comparison to back in the hay day of audio games, some 10 years ago or so. It isn’t just about raw user numbers, it is about demographics and the quality of those users. Which leads me to my second point. There is an old saying: “Lies, damn lies, and statistics.” This could not apply to anything as well as it does to the statement that Android is more popular than iOS overall. It is technically true that Android is used in more devices, but that is because many of those devices are not, strictly speaking, Android devices. That is to say, they are not being used as portable computing devices like iOS devices are. Kindles, Nooks, many models of feature phones, and countless other gadgets, all get lumped into the Android user numbers, even though many of those devices are so limited in scope that users don’t even know Android was used in their development. This is why, in the areas that matters, iOS’s numbers are so much better than Android’s, despite the marketshare numbers that the media likes to quote. iOS consistently has over 80% of web usage from mobile devices, for example. iOS users are for more likely to pay for apps, too. iOS users also spend more time on their devices, showing greater engagement with the platform. And those kinds of numbers go on and on. It is the same kind of trick as companies like Samsung use that create headlines in the news like: “Samsung sells 10 million Galaxy blah blah”. In reality, they shipped that number to resellers and warehouses. Shipped, but not necessarily sold to end users. Samsung never actually releases specific sales numbers. They only ever announce numbers of units shipped. It sounds better that way. Apple, conversely, only ever announces sales to end users, and never the number of units shipped. All of this, before you even start taking into account the fragmentation of Android, which is a disaster that Google is continuing to scramble to get a hold on with nothing to show for it. Less than 2% of Android devices are running the latest version of the OS, compared with over 70% of iOS devices. Android is a support
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
you do need a mac to develop for IOS, right? using windows7 laptop On 12/13/2013 7:13 PM, Cara Quinn wrote: Hi Davy, A question and a comment; When you say big bucks for a developer account, you are aware that this is $99 per year, not per month, yes? This translates to less than $8 per month, -less than $2 per week. Not sure of your budget but just want to make sure we're all on the same page here. :) To your point about not needing XCode when using C++, you do still need XCode to build for iOS / Mac, regardless of whether you use C++ or not. Hope this helps and hope you and yours are having a most lovely holiday season! Smiles, Cara :) --- iOS design and development - LookTel.com --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Dec 13, 2013, at 8:30 AM, Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl wrote: Hi, All very interesting points you made. I tend to agree that C++ is awesome (in an IDE that isn't vendor-specific, with an opensource toolchain). I'd love to automate my build process on Linux and do nightlies for beta testers. My main reason for using Java is that I can't avoid using it in the future, on projects where I don't get to decide what language to use. I am interested in iOS development in the long run. I thought of concentrating on Windows for now, using OpenAL or XAudio2 with C++, and then combining a Mac and iOS project since both use Objective-C and OpenAL. The most prominent reason for not doing that is that I'm not comfortable buying a MacBook and spending big money on a developer account just yet, and XCode is really the way to go for Objective-C. Doing something in C++ would mostly remove the requirement for XCode, which is a good thing to me as I'd like to unify the development process as much as possible. Still, right now I'm leaning towards using Java since I already have a skeleton engine set up in that language and because it's so easy to debug code on the JVM. My only problem is with the ease of decompiling. There are solutions, most notably ahead-of-time compiling, but then you lose not only some advantages of the JVM, but also a huge heap of money. :) But then, I also remember how Thomas struggled to find the right language for MOTA and lost valuable time (I'm told there's still no final version 1 for that game?). Clearly you need to bite that bullet some day or be obscured in the fog of indecisiveness. Cheers, Davy -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Draconis Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 17:06 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Chiming in on these cross-platform topics seems to be a common theme for me. LOL I have three points I’d like to make. First, ignoring Mac as a viable platform for blind gamers is a poor strategy. One year on, and Mac sales are still far exceeding Windows sales, even in comparison to back in the hay day of audio games, some 10 years ago or so. It isn’t just about raw user numbers, it is about demographics and the quality of those users. Which leads me to my second point. There is an old saying: “Lies, damn lies, and statistics.” This could not apply to anything as well as it does to the statement that Android is more popular than iOS overall. It is technically true that Android is used in more devices, but that is because many of those devices are not, strictly speaking, Android devices. That is to say, they are not being used as portable computing devices like iOS devices are. Kindles, Nooks, many models of feature phones, and countless other gadgets, all get lumped into the Android user numbers, even though many of those devices are so limited in scope that users don’t even know Android was used in their development. This is why, in the areas that matters, iOS’s numbers are so much better than Android’s, despite the marketshare numbers that the media likes to quote. iOS consistently has over 80% of web usage from mobile devices, for example. iOS users are for more likely to pay for apps, too. iOS users also spend more time on their devices, showing greater engagement with the platform. And those kinds of numbers go on and on. It is the same kind of trick as companies like Samsung use that create headlines in the news like: “Samsung sells 10 million Galaxy blah blah”. In reality, they shipped that number to resellers and warehouses. Shipped, but not necessarily sold to end users. Samsung never actually releases specific sales numbers. They only ever announce numbers of units shipped. It sounds better that way. Apple, conversely, only ever announces sales to end users, and never the number of units shipped. All of this, before you even start taking into account the fragmentation of Android, which is a disaster that Google is continuing to scramble to get a hold on with nothing to show for it. Less than 2% of Android
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
It is a proven fact that %86 of all statistics are made up :D. Btw, just intended this to be humerous. I know myself when I investigated the two platforms for a portable device there really wasn't much that made me want to choose Android owing to the complexity of the system and the lack of support as far as games and other developments go, and just looking how many games and accessible peaces of software there are for each system. While there are certainly some more recent releases, that doesn't seemed to have changed at least at the moment, indeed many of the more recent releases are things like Stem Stumper or Mortalmaze which are already available on other platforms, be that windows or Ios. One fact I find extremely worrying about Android is that some games which have both an Android and Ios version, have a version that is inaccessible on Android. The Storm8 games for example, or so I have had several people from audiogames.net confirm. This I find quite worrying since it means that if we're discussing access with a developer what they do for vo access on Ios will be different in interface terms to Android and might not work as coherently. Just to be clear I'm not talking about underlying code hear or what language a developer is using so much as I just mean things like correct labels on buttons and controls in the Ap. whether Google will iron these problems out in the future I don't know, but I do find them a concern in terms of where Android access and accessible games will end up. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 4:58 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Statistics can be disceiving. Years ago, there was a battle between the American and National leagues as which was more popular. The American league, according to statistics, was more popular. Ah. But what statistics?? More tickets were sold for American League games. However, if you looked at how many fans actually attended baseball games, there were more fans actually going through the turnstiles at National League games. More fans actually went to see the National League games. The American League's focus was on sales and income, but the National League's focus was on actual attendance. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Draconis i...@dracoent.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 10:05 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Chiming in on these cross-platform topics seems to be a common theme for me. LOL I have three points I’d like to make. First, ignoring Mac as a viable platform for blind gamers is a poor strategy. One year on, and Mac sales are still far exceeding Windows sales, even in comparison to back in the hay day of audio games, some 10 years ago or so. It isn’t just about raw user numbers, it is about demographics and the quality of those users. Which leads me to my second point. There is an old saying: “Lies, damn lies, and statistics.” This could not apply to anything as well as it does to the statement that Android is more popular than iOS overall. It is technically true that Android is used in more devices, but that is because many of those devices are not, strictly speaking, Android devices. That is to say, they are not being used as portable computing devices like iOS devices are. Kindles, Nooks, many models of feature phones, and countless other gadgets, all get lumped into the Android user numbers, even though many of those devices are so limited in scope that users don’t even know Android was used in their development. This is why, in the areas that matters, iOS’s numbers are so much better than Android’s, despite the marketshare numbers that the media likes to quote. iOS consistently has over 80% of web usage from mobile devices, for example. iOS users are for more likely to pay for apps, too. iOS users also spend more time on their devices, showing greater engagement with the platform. And those kinds of numbers go on and on. It is the same kind of trick as companies like Samsung use that create headlines in the news like: “Samsung sells 10 million Galaxy blah blah”. In reality, they shipped that number to resellers and warehouses. Shipped, but not necessarily sold to end users. Samsung never actually releases specific sales numbers. They only ever announce numbers of units shipped. It sounds better that way. Apple, conversely, only ever announces sales to end users, and never the number of units shipped. All of this, before you even start taking into account the fragmentation of Android, which is a disaster that Google is continuing to scramble to get a hold on with nothing to show for it. Less than 2% of Android devices are running the latest version of the OS
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
On 13 Dec 2013, at 16:05, Draconis i...@dracoent.com wrote: First, ignoring Mac as a viable platform for blind gamers is a poor strategy. One year on, and Mac sales are still far exceeding Windows sales, even in comparison to back in the hay day of audio games, some 10 years ago or so. It isn’t just about raw user numbers, it is about demographics and the quality of those users. +1. The primary objection I've heard to OS X from blinks so far is that it's not Windows. I believe that this is chiefly attributable to the ease-of-use of iOS, which has a comparatively lower learning curve. Fortunately, many others are choosing to adapt. If you as a game developer will not, then on behalf of all Mac users I'd just like to inform you that we're all very happy where we are, thankyouverymuch, and will pass on your game for the next Mac audiogame release. :) Cheers, Sabahattin --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Josh, Yes, you do need a Mac. Not sure if you're offering commentary on my note but if you are, davy mentioned purchasing a Mac and then the big money for the dev account so I was wondering if there might be some confusion here. If you have any other questions on Mac / iOS development, please don't hesitate to ask. :) -Happy to answer them… Have an awesome night! Cara :) --- iOS design and development - LookTel.com --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Dec 13, 2013, at 4:37 PM, Josh joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote: you do need a mac to develop for IOS, right? using windows7 laptop On 12/13/2013 7:13 PM, Cara Quinn wrote: Hi Davy, A question and a comment; When you say big bucks for a developer account, you are aware that this is $99 per year, not per month, yes? This translates to less than $8 per month, -less than $2 per week. Not sure of your budget but just want to make sure we're all on the same page here. :) To your point about not needing XCode when using C++, you do still need XCode to build for iOS / Mac, regardless of whether you use C++ or not. Hope this helps and hope you and yours are having a most lovely holiday season! Smiles, Cara :) --- iOS design and development - LookTel.com --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Dec 13, 2013, at 8:30 AM, Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl wrote: Hi, All very interesting points you made. I tend to agree that C++ is awesome (in an IDE that isn't vendor-specific, with an opensource toolchain). I'd love to automate my build process on Linux and do nightlies for beta testers. My main reason for using Java is that I can't avoid using it in the future, on projects where I don't get to decide what language to use. I am interested in iOS development in the long run. I thought of concentrating on Windows for now, using OpenAL or XAudio2 with C++, and then combining a Mac and iOS project since both use Objective-C and OpenAL. The most prominent reason for not doing that is that I'm not comfortable buying a MacBook and spending big money on a developer account just yet, and XCode is really the way to go for Objective-C. Doing something in C++ would mostly remove the requirement for XCode, which is a good thing to me as I'd like to unify the development process as much as possible. Still, right now I'm leaning towards using Java since I already have a skeleton engine set up in that language and because it's so easy to debug code on the JVM. My only problem is with the ease of decompiling. There are solutions, most notably ahead-of-time compiling, but then you lose not only some advantages of the JVM, but also a huge heap of money. :) But then, I also remember how Thomas struggled to find the right language for MOTA and lost valuable time (I'm told there's still no final version 1 for that game?). Clearly you need to bite that bullet some day or be obscured in the fog of indecisiveness. Cheers, Davy -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Draconis Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 17:06 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Chiming in on these cross-platform topics seems to be a common theme for me. LOL I have three points I’d like to make. First, ignoring Mac as a viable platform for blind gamers is a poor strategy. One year on, and Mac sales are still far exceeding Windows sales, even in comparison to back in the hay day of audio games, some 10 years ago or so. It isn’t just about raw user numbers, it is about demographics and the quality of those users. Which leads me to my second point. There is an old saying: “Lies, damn lies, and statistics.” This could not apply to anything as well as it does to the statement that Android is more popular than iOS overall. It is technically true that Android is used in more devices, but that is because many of those devices are not, strictly speaking, Android devices. That is to say, they are not being used as portable computing devices like iOS devices are. Kindles, Nooks, many models of feature phones, and countless other gadgets, all get lumped into the Android user numbers, even though many of those devices are so limited in scope that users don’t even know Android was used in their development. This is why, in the areas that matters, iOS’s numbers are so much better than Android’s, despite the marketshare numbers that the media likes to quote. iOS consistently has over 80% of web usage from mobile devices, for example. iOS users are for more likely to pay for apps, too. iOS users also spend more time on their devices, showing greater engagement with the platform. And those kinds of numbers go
[Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Whoa, has been ages since I last posted here! Anyway, nerd questions coming up. I’d be interested to know if there are any plans to turn BGT loose on Mac OS. I believe the scripting language it uses is capable of running on Mac OS, so that’s a start, isn’t it? Here is the background story, for those interested: I’ve been developing both “regular” applications and games, although to be fair I’ve spent very little time on games over the last few years. I use mostly Java, occasionally C++ as well. Recently I figured I’d start being serious about games again. The obvious thing to do would be to turn to Java (which is what I did), since I have to use that for more professional projects anyway so I might as well stick to something I know. Java is great for cross-platform work. Except for a few nitty gritty details you can basically cook one executable and run it on Windows, Mac OS and Linux. Java’s performance is good too, and with the upcoming Java 8 and 9 it will become less painful to distribute the required JVM with your source code, removing the need for your users to install extra software. Not to mention that debugging code is a breeze. The single disadvantage is that it is super easy to decompile Java, to the point where the original source emerges, so encrypting user data is virtually useless. Things like TLS for secure Internet communication still work of course, but all security keys you store in your code are visible to anyone and everyone. .NET kind of suffers from the same thing, by the way. Had some good times messing about with Entombed back when. J So then, I could use C++ (and optionally one of those executable scramblers that the cool kids love to use). To the trained professional disassembling a program written in C++ to find a certain bit of logic can be as straight-forward as decompiling Java, but it definitely makes life harder for the average Joe who wants to hack some sounds he particularly likes. On the other hand, as a developer you have to take a few extra steps to produce the required executables for the platforms you want to support. Debugging might also be a bit more cumbersome. In comes BGT. It’s very secure (although no software is truly unbreakable), its syntax isn’t a problem if you know C++ already, and it creates very efficient executables. On the donw-side, I’m told it’s only available on Windows, and you don’t get to use standards directly (AKA OpenAL, Java runtime, standard C++ library). I really don’t mind about the standards, but I believe I’d upset a few people if I’d leave out support for Mac OS. Actually, knowing standard things can be fun, too. If you want to develop for Android, Java would be an excellent choice, so it helps if your products for PC and Mac are already using it. Similarly, knowing OpenAL is great for moving on to iOS games, since Apple natively supports OpenAL. But really, Java’s not good at running on the same machine where the encrypted data lives without applying security on the OS level. I’m not too concerned about people coming up with their own keygens. If you have a members-only area inside your game that requires authentication with a remote server you won’t get anywhere with just a serial number anyway. But not being able to securely encrypt sounds is a bit of a boring thing to live with. So, I thought I’d check out alternatives, since I’ve not paid much attention to recent developments and would like to know how things stand these days. (Oh, and no, I don’t want to use Python, sorry. At least, not just right now.) There, your daily dose of nerdy musings. Enjoy! Cheers, Davy --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
